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coachdent
01-02-2007, 09:06 PM
Dayne and Putzier about ready to get some company.

Notable Broncos free agents -
QB- Jake Plummer
OT - Dwayne Carswell
DL - Michael Myers
DB - Roc Alexander (restricted)

All will get phone calls...

Over / under on signees? I'll put it at 1.5.
I'll take the over!

Runner
01-02-2007, 09:11 PM
They worked Carswell out this year. I still don't know how he didn't make the team. Too high on Bedell, I guess. :rolleyes:

Koolaid Time
01-02-2007, 09:12 PM
Dayne and Putzier about ready to get some company.

Notable Broncos free agents -
QB- Jake Plummer
OT - Dwayne Carswell
DL - Michael Myers
DB - Roc Alexander (restricted)

All will get phone calls...

Over / under on signees? I'll put it at 1.5.
I'll take the over!

You forget the Green Bay influence with the Texans... some of their Free Agents will get calls as well..

mexican_texan
01-02-2007, 09:13 PM
Roc Alexander's been with the Texans all season.

Scooter
01-02-2007, 09:15 PM
roc's already a texan and in all honesty i'd give the other 3 a shot during TC. plummer's an upgrade over carr, and it never hurts to give as many linemen a chance as possible. carswell didnt make it the first time around and i dont think he played at all last year so it's likely his football days are done.

GuerillaBlack
01-02-2007, 09:19 PM
I also heard that Tatum Bell might be getting the boot from Denver and they might stick with Mike Bell. They have too many bells there anyway, so I hope they do release Tatum.

Imatexanfan
01-02-2007, 09:22 PM
This sounds familiar to my post a couple of days ago, "scavenging former players.":shades:

Having Kubes and Sherman might be a good thing come FA. Who would you scavenge out of their former teams' FA's?

Broncos
Burns, Keith LB UFA
Carlisle, Cooper OG UFA
Chukwurah, Patrick LB UFA
Devoe, Todd WR ERFA
Green, Louis LB RFA
Johnson, Kyle FB UFA
Morgan, Quincy WR UFA
Myers, Michael DT UFA
Peterson, Kenny DE UFA
Sapp, Cecil RB UFA

Packers
Allen, Kenderick DT UFA
Cole, Colin DT ERFA
Davis, Rob LS UFA
Gbaja-Biamila, Kabeer DE UFA
Green, Ahman RB UFA
Herron, Noah RB ERFA
Humphrey, Tory TE ERFA
Jenkins, Cullen DT RFA
Lee, Donald TE UFA
Martin, David TE UFA
Ryan, Jon P ERFA
Taylor, Ben LB UFA
White, Tracy LB UFA

**No hard feelin's dawg**

PoolMaster21
01-02-2007, 09:27 PM
You forget the Green Bay influence with the Texans... some of their Free Agents will get calls as well..

Mike Sherman will probably fill one of the open head coaching jobs, so the Green Bay influence will decrease significantly.

yourfavoritetexan42
01-02-2007, 10:17 PM
roc's already a texan and in all honesty i'd give the other 3 a shot during TC. plummer's an upgrade over carr, and it never hurts to give as many linemen a chance as possible. carswell didnt make it the first time around and i dont think he played at all last year so it's likely his football days are done.

Plummer an upgrade over carr?

Plummer through more interceptions in 12 games then carr did in 16. Carr is faster and stronger arm. I don't know how plummer is better than carr... really don't...

PoolMaster21
01-02-2007, 10:21 PM
Plummer an upgrade over carr?

Plummer through more interceptions in 12 games then carr did in 16. Carr is faster and stronger arm. I don't know how plummer is better than carr... really don't...

Agreed - he's just the biggest "name" FA - I hate to say this, but by process of elimination Carr might still be our QB next year - I don't see an upgrade to any of the available free agents. Draft Kolb and let Carr sweat in '07!

TheRealJoker
01-02-2007, 10:21 PM
Plummer an upgrade over carr?

Plummer through more interceptions in 12 games then carr did in 16. Carr is faster and stronger arm. I don't know how plummer is better than carr... really don't...

The only thing Plummer has on Carr is he's proven that he can quarterback a playoff caliber team. That and he is someone other than Carr which no doubt helps him with the Houston fan base. As far as skills though, I think Carr is superior, but we have not had a playoff caliber team ever so he has yet to prove he can qb a team of that caliber.

TheRealJoker
01-02-2007, 10:22 PM
Btw, i'd like us to bring in Michael Myers and maybe Tatum Bell depending on the price. I doubt Kabeer G-baja Biamila would get to free agency but if he does that looks like our pass rush specialist!!!

Tulip
01-02-2007, 10:27 PM
Plummer an upgrade over carr?

Plummer through more interceptions in 12 games then carr did in 16. Carr is faster and stronger arm. I don't know how plummer is better than carr... really don't...

I could see how Kubiak might think that Plummer would look more like 2004-2005 Plummer than 2006 Plummer because Plummer would be back under Kubiak's guidance. If I were Kubiak, I would probably be more confident in someone who had success under me than someone who had not.

Scooter
01-02-2007, 10:45 PM
Plummer an upgrade over carr?

Plummer through more interceptions in 12 games then carr did in 16. Carr is faster and stronger arm. I don't know how plummer is better than carr... really don't...

this will be my only post on the subject in hopes it doesnt become a carr thread. plummer threw as many touchdowns in 11 games as carr did in 16 (our biggest problem is scoring). he won 7 games this year in 11 starts and is roughly 37-17 as a starter in denver ... winning 11 consecutive home games across 04-05. along with carr's INT's he's also a fumble machine. plummer threw for more touchdowns in 05 than carr has in a single season (18) and threw for 27 in 04 (along with 4000+ yards in 04) under gary kubiak. besides his accomplishments in denver, he did manage to get the pathetic cardinals to the playoffs in 98 (even beating dallas in the first round) ... the last time they've had a winning season.

you have zero arguement that carr is better than plummer outside of obvious physical talents ... talents which have lead to next to nothing on the field.

The Pencil Neck
01-02-2007, 10:56 PM
Plummer an upgrade over carr?

Plummer through more interceptions in 12 games then carr did in 16. Carr is faster and stronger arm. I don't know how plummer is better than carr... really don't...

Plummer DID take the Arizona Cardinals to their first playoff victory in a zillion years and he did it with a team that wasn't great. He throws a LOT more TD's than Carr and he throws for a lot more yards. Carr might have a stronger arm that Plummer but Plummer completes more longer passes. On what scale is Carr better than Plummer? He has about the same TD to INT ratio that Carr has.

With Plummer, you get a guy that sometimes tries too hard and thinks he has to win the game all by himself. Just like Carr. But, Plummer actually puts some points on the board.

Both guys have their warts and neither is a long term solution, but I'd take Plummer over Carr. At the beginning of this season, I wouldn't have said that and even think I said exactly the opposite in a thread. But Carr's performance this year has really poisoned me on Carr.

eriadoc
01-03-2007, 12:08 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure Jake Plummer has only shown that he can get to the playoffs and turn the ball over 4 times against the Steelers. That 13-3 Broncos team was good enough to go to the Super Bowl last year, except for one position. This notion that Plummer "took them" to the playoffs is laughable. And the year he "took" the Cardinals to the playoffs, he had a pretty darn good defense behind him and he threw 20 picks and fumbled 12 times, 5 of which were lost. If that is "taking a team" to the playoffs, then I have full confidence Carr can accomplish that - he's not quite as good at turning the ball over as Jake "the Mistake", but with practice, I'm sure he can get there.

The Pencil Neck
01-03-2007, 01:07 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure Jake Plummer has only shown that he can get to the playoffs and turn the ball over 4 times against the Steelers. That 13-3 Broncos team was good enough to go to the Super Bowl last year, except for one position. This notion that Plummer "took them" to the playoffs is laughable. And the year he "took" the Cardinals to the playoffs, he had a pretty darn good defense behind him and he threw 20 picks and fumbled 12 times, 5 of which were lost. If that is "taking a team" to the playoffs, then I have full confidence Carr can accomplish that - he's not quite as good at turning the ball over as Jake "the Mistake", but with practice, I'm sure he can get there.

Sure, he threw 20 picks but he also threw 27 touchdowns (iirc). That's what you get with Plummer. He makes bad decisions and turns the ball over... but he'll also put up some points. Right now, we've got someone who makes bad decisions and turns the ball over and DOESN'T put up any points. Neither one of these guys is a good QB. Both of them are going to lose games for you. But if you can get him to focus (and Kubiak has gotten him to focus), Plummer is going to pull one or two games out for you... it's been so long since Carr pulled a game out that I frankly can't recall it happening.

So, I'd say Plummer wins one or two games for you that Carr doesn't as well as losing all the games for you that Carr would have lost for you. So I see Plummer as a step up. A baby step, but a step.

If we need a temporary, stop-gap QB while we're grooming someone else to start, I'd prefer Plummer to Carr because I think we could at least show improvement with Plummer.

aj.
01-03-2007, 01:09 AM
Plummer could step in today and run the full version of the offense, not just the dumbed down version.

Plummer can actually look downfield while rolling out of the pocket. He has far better escapability from the pocket and improvisational skills than Carr.

Plummer plays more out of control than Carr, but it's easier to pull a wet noodle then to push one.

Plummer's mistakes have been forcing balls into coverage in intermediate and deep zones. Carr doesn't know what an intermediate zone is.

Plummer has his own problems but he appears to be far less damaged between the ears than Carr.

While not the savior, Plummer would be an upgrade at the position and most important not a liability (on this team).

Roc was quickly becoming one of our best special teams players before he was hurt. I know Kubiak was very high on him and he no doubt will be back in Texans camp.

Tatum is a fumbling machine. No thanks.

eriadoc
01-03-2007, 01:24 AM
Sure, he threw 20 picks but he also threw 27 touchdowns (iirc). That's what you get with Plummer. He makes bad decisions and turns the ball over... but he'll also put up some points. Right now, we've got someone who makes bad decisions and turns the ball over and DOESN'T put up any points. Neither one of these guys is a good QB. Both of them are going to lose games for you. But if you can get him to focus (and Kubiak has gotten him to focus), Plummer is going to pull one or two games out for you... it's been so long since Carr pulled a game out that I frankly can't recall it happening.

So, I'd say Plummer wins one or two games for you that Carr doesn't as well as losing all the games for you that Carr would have lost for you. So I see Plummer as a step up. A baby step, but a step.

If we need a temporary, stop-gap QB while we're grooming someone else to start, I'd prefer Plummer to Carr because I think we could at least show improvement with Plummer.

The year we are referring to, 1998, he threw 17 TDs, 20 INTs, and fumbled 12 times (lost 5 of them). Those are Carr numbers. Plummer has had one remarkable season in his entire career, and that was last year. He simply didn't make that many mistakes last year and had good production - until the playoffs. If y'all think Plummer is an upgrade to Carr, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. That's fine. But to perpetuate the myth that Plummer took his teams to the playoffs is a little ridiculous, IMO. I know it's en vogue to hate Carr around here, but if you put Carr on that Broncos team from last year, with two years of Kubiak's coaching, he'd be as good or better than Plummer. I'm all for losing Carr if we can get an upgrade, but I don't think Plummer's an upgrade. I'd definitely be interested in Russell or Kolb in the draft, but I don't see too many feasible options on the FA market. I'd rather take my chances with a Sage/Carr competition and groom the young QB.

The Pencil Neck
01-03-2007, 01:44 AM
The year we are referring to, 1998, he threw 17 TDs, 20 INTs, and fumbled 12 times (lost 5 of them). Those are Carr numbers. Plummer has had one remarkable season in his entire career, and that was last year. He simply didn't make that many mistakes last year and had good production - until the playoffs. If y'all think Plummer is an upgrade to Carr, then we'll just have to agree to disagree. That's fine. But to perpetuate the myth that Plummer took his teams to the playoffs is a little ridiculous, IMO. I know it's en vogue to hate Carr around here, but if you put Carr on that Broncos team from last year, with two years of Kubiak's coaching, he'd be as good or better than Plummer. I'm all for losing Carr if we can get an upgrade, but I don't think Plummer's an upgrade. I'd definitely be interested in Russell or Kolb in the draft, but I don't see too many feasible options on the FA market. I'd rather take my chances with a Sage/Carr competition and groom the young QB.

For some reason, I had remembered his TD/Int totals from 2004 as being from 1998 (27/20 vs. 17/20). My bad.

But... even at 17/20, Carr has never thrown 17 TD's in a season even in his best season to date.

And although I used the word "take", I'm not someone who believes that wins and losses should all be laid at the feet of the QB. Plummer had some good players on that 98 team and they had a very easy schedule (iirc, they didn't beat any teams with a winning record until beating the cowgirls in the playoffs.) However, that doesn't change the fact that he was the QB of a team that made it to the playoffs and won a game. A team that had/has a history of not getting to the playoffs. That's got to count for something.

With Carr as he is today, I don't think he has the arm or the guts to make the throws down the field. I think the injury to his arm that he had a couple of years ago has sapped his strength. And I think the psychological damage has been done and he's broken now. I really don't think he's salvageable. He's a Jim Everett.

But if you think that Carr is better, well... nobody's perfect. :)

mexican_texan
01-03-2007, 01:58 AM
Call me a homer, but I don't see Tatum Bell as much of an improvement over Chris Taylor.

Something to consider...Plummer didn't have a #2 receiver in Denver until this year with Javon Walker, but without Kubiak. Ashley Lelie was good for a long play every few games, but wasn't very consistent. I've heard some call him a young Corey Bradford, which is very insulting.

eriadoc
01-03-2007, 02:13 AM
But if you think that Carr is better, well... nobody's perfect. :)

I just think he's better than Plummer, which isn't saying a lot.

everardo7206
01-03-2007, 02:29 AM
i liked billy miller at TE.. don't know why they let him go... owen daniels is carr's main guy at that position, but putzier (pronounced PUT-C-A) is an ok TE

mexican_texan
01-03-2007, 02:40 AM
i liked billy miller at TE.. don't know why they let him go... owen daniels is carr's main guy at that position, but putzier (pronounced PUT-C-A) is an ok TE
Billy Miller couldn't block a pop-up. He was stuck somewhere between WR and TE. He was with the Saints, last I checked.

SamuraiSword
01-03-2007, 06:55 AM
Dayne and Putzier about ready to get some company.

Notable Broncos free agents -
QB- Jake Plummer
OT - Dwayne Carswell
DL - Michael Myers
DB - Roc Alexander (restricted)

All will get phone calls...

Over / under on signees? I'll put it at 1.5.
I'll take the over!

Michael Myers is a cool sounding name. :)

El Tejano
01-03-2007, 07:39 AM
Michael Myers is a cool sounding name. :)

He also answers alot of questions at DT. That dude can play. It would also be cool to see all the Michael Myers masks at games too.

edo783
01-03-2007, 08:22 AM
Plummer could step in today and run the full version of the offense, not just the dumbed down version.

Plummer can actually look downfield while rolling out of the pocket. He has far better escapability from the pocket and improvisational skills than Carr.

Plummer plays more out of control than Carr, but it's easier to pull a wet noodle then to push one.

Plummer's mistakes have been forcing balls into coverage in intermediate and deep zones. Carr doesn't know what an intermediate zone is.

Plummer has his own problems but he appears to be far less damaged between the ears than Carr.

While not the savior, Plummer would be an upgrade at the position and most important not a liability (on this team).

Roc was quickly becoming one of our best special teams players before he was hurt. I know Kubiak was very high on him and he no doubt will be back in Texans camp.

Tatum is a fumbling machine. No thanks.

Pretty much spot on AJ. Jake will be exciting and he will make you pull your hair out. He is much more of a gunslinger/reckless type than Carr which brings into play a whole set of other issues, but he can come here and run the offense from day one and it will be more exciting, but probably most of all for the fans.......it wont be David Carr and that alone would settle the fanbase down for at least what......3 games?

TheOgre
01-03-2007, 09:51 AM
Tatum is a fumbling machine. No thanks.

Not to mention he went to OSU, and it is obvious the head office doesn't like OSU players. :tease: (that was sarcasm in case you didn't get that)

Overalls
01-03-2007, 10:10 AM
I understand that there is a Plummer connection to Kubes, but please stop talking about him coming here. Next year would be his 11th season. He has a career 74.6 QB rating, 75 fumbles and 161 INTs. If we get rid of David and just want a stop gap QB, we might as well stay with Sage he already knows the system as implemented here and is already considered to be one of the guys. Not to mention he is already under contract for 1.1 mil for next season.

Rosenfels, Sage
View Stats at Players Inc Site
Player Info
Draft Info

QB (#18)
Year: 2001

Houston Texans
Round: 4

Maquoketa, IA
Position: 14

Salary History

2006 600000.00
2007 1100000.00
2008 1350000.00
2009 1350000.00

Vinny
01-03-2007, 10:29 AM
Plummer could step in today and run the full version of the offense, not just the dumbed down version.

Plummer can actually look downfield while rolling out of the pocket. He has far better escapability from the pocket and improvisational skills than Carr.

Plummer plays more out of control than Carr, but it's easier to pull a wet noodle then to push one.

Plummer's mistakes have been forcing balls into coverage in intermediate and deep zones. Carr doesn't know what an intermediate zone is.

Plummer has his own problems but he appears to be far less damaged between the ears than Carr.

While not the savior, Plummer would be an upgrade at the position and most important not a liability (on this team).

Roc was quickly becoming one of our best special teams players before he was hurt. I know Kubiak was very high on him and he no doubt will be back in Texans camp.

Tatum is a fumbling machine. No thanks.totally agree...excellent post as usual.

Maddict5
01-03-2007, 01:27 PM
This sounds familiar to my post a couple of days ago, "scavenging former players.":shades:


Jenkins, Cullen DT RFA



id be real interested in picking him up

Ride 'Em
01-03-2007, 01:35 PM
Not to mention he went to OSU, and it is obvious the head office doesn't like OSU players. :tease: (that was sarcasm in case you didn't get that)

Hey! ;)

Now I know I'm biased here but I think Tatum could give the Texans something they don't have, a true homerun threat in the backfield.

threetoedpete
01-03-2007, 01:36 PM
Btw, i'd like us to bring in Michael Myers and maybe Tatum Bell depending on the price. I doubt Kabeer G-baja Biamila would get to free agency but if he does that looks like our pass rush specialist!!!

Agreed. Nice read on the list. Lotta people on the board slippin in the weeds with Jake the Snake. I'll believe it when I see it. Ten cent GM's extrapolatin'. Mind Boggeling.

HOU-TEX
01-03-2007, 01:45 PM
Hey! ;)

Now I know I'm biased here but I think Tatum could give the Texans something they don't have, a true homerun threat in the backfield.

He's started 14 out of 42 games and has fumbled the ball 9 times. He lost the ball 5 times in 13 games this year alone. It also appears he has yet to stay healthy for a full season. No thanks, I'll pass.:)

touttail
01-03-2007, 02:41 PM
I also heard that Tatum Bell might be getting the boot from Denver and they might stick with Mike Bell. They have too many bells there anyway, so I hope they do release Tatum.

Great runner, BUT
Tatum fumbles way too many times for my liking!

Bobby 119c

Texan_Bill
01-03-2007, 02:55 PM
Billy Miller couldn't block a pop-up. He was stuck somewhere between WR and TE. He was with the Saints, last I checked.

He is with the Saints and had a couple of good games in a row... But you are correct, he was a tweener and as such, never really got the blocking part of it down...

I will always have a cool spot for him in my (brief) Texans History Moments, when he caught a 19 yard TD pass against the Cowgurls September 8, 2002.

DocBar
01-03-2007, 03:15 PM
For some reason, nobody seems to be realizing that Plummer has had an incredible array of talent around him in Denver. Why should we suppose he would be an upgrade at QB behind our OL? I'm not nearly as big a Carr fan as I was last year( he REALLY teed me off this year), but the only gain I see from bringing in Plummer is that he knows Kubes. IMO, Carr would be a pro bowler by now if he'd gone to Denver. Our OL sucks. It has since day 1. I say keep Carr,let him and Sage battle it out in TC, draft 1st day for OL and see who's available at QB after the 1st rnd. JMHO

kiwitexansfan
01-03-2007, 04:01 PM
Agreed - he's just the biggest "name" FA - I hate to say this, but by process of elimination Carr might still be our QB next year - I don't see an upgrade to any of the available free agents. Draft Kolb and let Carr sweat in '07!

I agree to your agree... I am a Carr fan but I have come to the point where I want to see the QB of the Future being groomed behind him for a run at the job 2008.

aj.
01-03-2007, 05:02 PM
For some reason, nobody seems to be realizing that Plummer has had an incredible array of talent around him in Denver...

Incredible array?

Even in thier 13-3 year in '05 their offensive talent was not head and shoulders above anyone else. Who are you talking about in this incredible array, an aging Rod Smith? I'd rather have AJ. Lelie? Give me a break (remember...talking '05 now). Nalen and Mike Anderson? Absolutely. Foster? He's better than anything we have at tackle right now but is he elite? No. Tatum Bell? That was discussed in another thread.

I think Champ Bailey, John Lynch and Al Wilson had a lot to do with that success up there.

Incredible array of talent (on offense)? In their best year in recent history ... and in a word .... no. Better talent than the Texans? At some positions, yes. Better depth overall? Absolutely. But tell me, how are guys like Pitts and Weary that much worse than Hamilton and Carlisle (for example). Even this year, is Javon Walker any better than AJ? Is Stephen Alexander that much better than Owen Daniels and/or Bruener? Is Kyle Johnson that much better than Vonta Leach? Is rookie Eric Pears that much better than rookie Eric Winston? Just curious to see how you break it all down to reach that conclusion.

Long story short, they don't have a bunch of Pro Bowlers on offense up there.

Texans_Chick
01-03-2007, 05:15 PM
Incredible array?

Even in thier 13-3 year in '05 their offensive talent was not head and shoulders above anyone else. Who are you talking about in this incredible array, an aging Rod Smith? I'd rather have AJ. Lelie (remember...talking '05 now)? Give me a break. Nalen and Mike Anderson? Absolutely. Foster? He's better than anything we have at tackle right now but is he elite? No. Tatum Bell? That was discussed in another thread.

I think Champ Bailey, John Lynch and Al Wilson had a lot to do with that success up there too.

Incredible array of talent (on offense)? In their best year in recent history ... and in a word .... no. Better talent than the Texans? At some positions, yes. Better depth overall? Absolutely. But tell me, how guys like Pitts and Weary that much worse than Hamilton and Carlisle (for example). Even this year, is Javon Walker any better than AJ? Is Stephen Alexander that much better than Owen Daniels and/or Bruener? Is Kyle Johnson that much better than Vonta Leach? Is rookie Eric Pears that much better than rookie Eric Winston? Just curious to see how you break it all down to reach that conclusion.


Their line got hurt this season and was a problem for all season. Their running game was superior to the Texans.

Basically, the question is whether Plummer with Kubiak regains his mojo even with a Texans offensive line which is likely to be patchwork again next year and huge question marks at running back. Plummer looked non-good this season--was it because of the decline in the running game and a hurty line, or was it because of no Kubiak or both?

The Texans offense this year between the running game and passing game was extraordinarily disconnected for a system where they are meant to work together.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just still have questions of whether Kubiak pixie dust sprinkled on Plummer will help him deal with the dysfunction that is currently the experimental Texans offense.

I'm not convinced that the Texans offensive line, even when they were healthy and was the starting line up, was doing anything resembling the Denver system. And I wonder without doing the blocking the same way whether you can have a running machine like the Denver offense does when it is working.

Just putting this out here for discussion.

aj.
01-03-2007, 05:22 PM
Their line got hurt this season and was a problem for all season.


So did ours. That's not the issue or the question.

Their running game was superior to the Texans.
That was acknowledged.

I was more interested in hearing about the 'incredible array' of talent around Plummer - especially during the year they went to the AFC championship.

Texian
01-03-2007, 05:41 PM
What was this thread about...Oh yeah...FREE AGENTS

With new coaches in Arizona, Atlanta and Miami, this may open the door for free agent players on those teams to look else where.

kcwilson
01-04-2007, 11:57 AM
I also heard that Tatum Bell might be getting the boot from Denver and they might stick with Mike Bell. They have too many bells there anyway, so I hope they do release Tatum.

And with the number of penalties the Broncos racked up this year, that is way too many Bells and Whistles.

Stampede
01-04-2007, 12:43 PM
Don't forget about Rick Smith. Kubiak values his opinion. This won't be a one man recruiting show. From what I read, coach has asked all the players to help out with FA signings as well, much like Andre did with Moulds last season. Im looking forward to seeing what they can accomplish this off-season.

TexanFanInCC
01-04-2007, 01:29 PM
why do we have to copy denver? why cant we build our own system and our own team via draft and then the folks in denver can call their team the denver texans? just my opinion. plummer = wash. were better off building our own team rather than taking other teams' rejects.