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TexanFanInCC
12-31-2006, 02:53 PM
Well? My opinion. No he didnt. Im pleased with the win, but Carr had to come out and make a statement, and I dont think he did that, expecially against a battered browns defense. What is your opinion? I do appreciate what he has done for this franchise. He has given his body for this team. A change of scenary is what is needed and I do wish Carr the best of luck down the road.

Honoring Earl 34
12-31-2006, 02:56 PM
I think that a change is best for both party's .

TexanLen
12-31-2006, 02:57 PM
I agree with you, C C. He didn't show me any thing either to say "no we need to keep him."

TexanFanInCC
12-31-2006, 02:58 PM
well the other thing i see is that no matter what, people in houston are going to be pissed off at carr because we did not draft vince young. because we didnt draft him, all of carr's mistakes are going to take much heavier criticism than they probably deserve, and i think that is why carr may be better off playing in a different setting where he wont take heat. nonetheless, i still think carr's production was insufficient.

Wolf
12-31-2006, 02:58 PM
I like David Carr,but I don't think he did enough, not for the am't of money he is getting paid. I used to defend that argument, but now wondering. If there was a restructure of his contract, Iwould be happy.. I know the OL was injured this season and we went through multiple line variation, but if Carr is back I will support him, but I won't be suprised if he isn't back. But as someone said, if he is getting paid as a top 5 QB, then we don't need to see 2nd half of the season slumps..

edo783
12-31-2006, 02:59 PM
Probably not enough to unequivicaly say yes or no (kind of the issue for 5 years). Probably be back because of cap and all that, but look for a development type QB to be taken in the draft. MIGHT see Plummer brought in to push him, but it will need to be relatively cheap.

Ryan
12-31-2006, 02:59 PM
i think carr will demand a trade bc he will never get any respect even if he wins mvp

Imatexanfan
12-31-2006, 03:00 PM
He didn't do enough at all........BUT since ol' BOB is on his nads all the time................he'll be here next year.:spy:

HJam72
12-31-2006, 03:00 PM
Well, he did "lead" his team to victory, but he did it by playing like garbage.

t_flare
12-31-2006, 03:00 PM
hey one game doesnt say it all u know.. this season has been up and down like a rollercoaster.. .

how much is it on David, the line and the running game will be decided by the coaches... we see the games from one angle and the coaches see them in every angle so..

Hell who cares now.. 2-14 --> 6-10 how can you not be happy for one day of the year..be piss next year (tomorrow)

Goldeagle
12-31-2006, 03:01 PM
He won 6 games this year.

K.D.
12-31-2006, 03:03 PM
Either way i see it, Carr will be around atleast 1 more year. We need to bring someone in to challenge Carr in the off-season, although Sage might can be that person. I wouldn't be real upset tho, if we were to find another qb, just not Plummer, and draft a prospect in later rounds, Kolb or Tate. Either way something has to happen this off-season.

TexanFanInCC
12-31-2006, 03:03 PM
carr is still making mistakes that you try to teach ROOKIE qbs not to make. carr is not a rookie, he is a highly paid 5th yr veteran. he was paid bc they were expecting him to flourish with kubiak. it is not because of kubiaks system that carr still doesnt make proper reads in his progressions or still makes throws that make no sense directly at opposing defenders.

Grid
12-31-2006, 03:06 PM
He sure didnt. He won MAYBE 4 games this year.. the running game and defense won the other games. More importantly.. he lost 10.

Honestly though, he just didnt show me anything. He started off strong.. and then showed no ability to stand up in tough situations.. make plays when we were in trouble... make smart decisions.. etc..etc..etc..

We need more from our QB if we are gonna turn this team around fast. Carr is not the answer here.

TexanFanInCC
12-31-2006, 03:06 PM
He won 6 games this year.

carr didnt win all 6. the running game probably had the most to do with the wins. carr made a few good plays....but comeon, i cant think of any one memorable carr throw this year. i see the running game playing well today, ron dayne having a career game vs. indy, wali lundy in the 1-2 big games he had. carr was probably the key to success in probably 3 of the wins, both vs jax and the game vs miami. PLUS, 11 td passes and 12 int's for a 5th yr QB is not good... thats not progress. thats going in reverse.

bayoumaniac
12-31-2006, 03:08 PM
:deadhorse

Wolf
12-31-2006, 03:09 PM
Carr made some key throws in the Indy game

Grid
12-31-2006, 03:09 PM
Carr made some key throws in the Indy game

They dont count for much with me. Any QB should be able to make some great throws when you can run over a team 42 times for 200 yards rushing.

leachmtb
12-31-2006, 03:10 PM
carr didnt win all 6. the running game probably had the most to do with the wins. carr made a few good plays....but comeon, i cant think of any one memorable carr throw this year. i see the running game playing well today, ron dayne having a career game vs. indy, wali lundy in the 1-2 big games he had. carr was probably the key to success in probably 3 of the wins, both vs jax and the game vs miami. PLUS, 11 td passes and 12 int's for a 5th yr QB is not good... thats not progress. thats going in reverse.

I see your point that carr didn't win all of those 6 games. But, would you then be willing to say that Vince Young did not win all of his games either (especially since his kicker hit two incredible field goals). I agree that David did not win all of them, but how many people would say that VY did not win all of his?

MrMeToo
12-31-2006, 03:11 PM
I see your point that carr didn't win all of those 6 games. But, would you then be willing to say that Vince Young did not win all of his games either (especially since his kicker hit two incredible field goals). I agree that David did not win all of them, but how many people would say that VY did not win all of his?

Still, Vince>>>>>>>>>>Carr.

HoustonFan
12-31-2006, 03:15 PM
Either way i see it, Carr will be around atleast 1 more year. We need to bring someone in to challenge Carr in the off-season, although Sage might can be that person. I wouldn't be real upset tho, if we were to find another qb, just not Plummer, and draft a prospect in later rounds, Kolb or Tate. Either way something has to happen this off-season.

I agree. I like Carr as well. Not a stellar day for the guy, but in the end, it's all about the W. I like the idea of getting someone in here that will challenge Carr. Rosenfels was doing a good job up until that special teams injury. Hopefully they draft a quality rookie QB in the draft. Hoping for Troy Smith, but Kolb wouldn't be bad - if these guys are still around.

t_flare
12-31-2006, 03:16 PM
hell you cant change him all they way.. but i tell you Kubiak can make him better next year.. better O-line and better running game will make a better David Carr

HJam72
12-31-2006, 03:16 PM
Can we afford to pay for two starting QBs? I guess we may have to.

TexanFanInCC
12-31-2006, 03:17 PM
i think if i remember correctly, only 2 of our wins should be considered "comfortable" wins. thats not something to be proud of. wins are wins, but you cant flirt with the mendoza line for too long.

TexanFanInCC
12-31-2006, 03:17 PM
hell you cant change him all they way.. but i tell you Kubiak can make him better next year.. better O-line and better running game will make a better David Carr

thats been the story for the past 5 yrs...

TexanFanInCC
12-31-2006, 03:20 PM
I see your point that carr didn't win all of those 6 games. But, would you then be willing to say that Vince Young did not win all of his games either (especially since his kicker hit two incredible field goals). I agree that David did not win all of them, but how many people would say that VY did not win all of his?

i think young's presence and influence had a big part of why the titans are even a .500 team. they were 0-5 before vince became the every day starter. this team couldnt play defense, and offensively, it appeared as if there was not one defined go-to reciever. vince's presence made a big difference. i didnt start this thread to talk about vince young, so im ending it now. no vince talk in this thread please!

Maddict5
12-31-2006, 03:20 PM
He sure didnt. He won MAYBE 4 games this year.. the running game and defense won the other games. More importantly.. he lost 10.

.

LOL how can you make that post in fairness- you only give him credit for some of the wins but all the losses?? were the buffalo, nyg, 1st colts etc on carr... i think he will be here next year but doesnt deserve to be

leachmtb
12-31-2006, 03:24 PM
i think young's presence and influence had a big part of why the titans are even a .500 team. they were 0-5 before vince became the every day starter. this team couldnt play defense, and offensively, it appeared as if there was not one defined go-to reciever. vince's presence made a big difference. i didnt start this thread to talk about vince young, so im ending it now. no vince talk in this thread please!

I see your point, I'm not arguing that Vince has not made them better. But, if someone is going to say that David did not win all of our games (which I am not arguing with, I don't think that he won any but the Jacksonville games), how can you then say that Vince WON them for the Titans. I'm not arguing that he made them better.

kfranco_utexas
12-31-2006, 03:26 PM
Still, Vince>>>>>>>>>>Carr.

I AGREE:stirpot:

Napa Auto Parts
12-31-2006, 03:27 PM
No. well it was a good ride in our Carr Long Pause about 30seconds























NOT cant wait until we get some decent QB play in this town.

Mr teX
12-31-2006, 03:28 PM
I don't think he did enough to guarantee himself a starting slot for next year, but that's not to say that we should get rid of him in the off-season unless someone offers us something very worth while. I say bringing in Plummer isn't such a bad idea, or drafting a QB to groom for a year or so.

on a side note, fans in the stadium booing after kubes decided not to punch it in on the last drive make me sick & ashamed to be a houston texans fan. The win was CLEARLY in hand & there was no need to score. You could even see it in the players' faces after the boos rained down in the stadium after Carr took a knee. They were looking around like "are you serious?"

I say BOOOOOO to the fans in the stadium for being classless.

TexanLen
12-31-2006, 03:29 PM
I wish people would quit comparing VY to Carr. That train done came and left. Carr is, was, the texans QB this year and now we will see what happens. I think it's a safe bet that VY will NoT be here next year in a Texans uniform.

#Ocho
12-31-2006, 03:30 PM
LOL how can you make that post in fairness- you only give him credit for some of the wins but all the losses?? were the buffalo, nyg, 1st colts etc on carr... i think he will be here next year but doesnt deserve to be

Because he is objective and all. hahaha

You know, I was ALL for an amicable Carr trade before today. Now, I want him to stay here to torment the "classy" fans in Houston... especially the ones that booed at the end of the game.

I say give Carr a pay raise and cut Sage, sign Jake Plummer to a huge deal, and draft a punter in the 1st round.

I love reading these haters whiny rants. Go cry for me some more.

NATHANHALE
12-31-2006, 03:30 PM
i think carr will demand a trade bc he will never get any respect even if he wins mvp


...no way...no other team will give Carr the 'cake walk' he's got in Houston....'big money' for 'poor results'

Napa Auto Parts
12-31-2006, 03:31 PM
I wish people would quit comparing VY to Carr. That train done came and left. Carr is, was, the texans QB this year and now we will see what happens. I think it's a safe bet that VY will NoT be here next year in a Texans uniform.



your right i doubt the titans would get rid of a winner like VY but with our system we dont need a winner at QB:stirpot:

Mr teX
12-31-2006, 03:32 PM
...no way...no other team will give Carr the 'cake walk' he's got in Houston....'big money' for 'poor results'

You obviously underestimate Al Davis & the raiders organization.

AustinJB
12-31-2006, 03:32 PM
I see your point that carr didn't win all of those 6 games. But, would you then be willing to say that Vince Young did not win all of his games either (especially since his kicker hit two incredible field goals). I agree that David did not win all of them, but how many people would say that VY did not win all of his?

Well, I was trying to refrain from turning this into a VY vs. Carr thread b/c it is really a mute point at this time since we already passed on the chance to get him. But if you want to bring it up, VY really did more for his team than Carr did for us...and VY is only a rookie "who still needs 3-4 years to develop into a starter in the NFL" according to most "experts" and a lot of fans on this MB. Let's take a look:



(before today, which will make Carr's stats worse and VY's better BTW)
Carr: 68.6 comp%, 11 TD, 11 INT, 201 rushing w/ 2 TD, 29 poor throws, 18 passes tipped at the line

VY: 52.6 comp%, 12 TD, 11 INT, 523 rushing yds w/ 6 TD, 51 poor throws, 5 passes tipped at the line



Wow! What a drastic difference between the 5-yr starter and 1st-yr starter:shades:

And none the above stats even take into account the numerous Carr fumbles, the fact that Carr has MUCH better WRs & TEs, or the several VY 4th quarter comebacks compared to Carr's...what? maybe one?:stirpot:

P.S.--Nice to see that VY's side-arm throwing motion has really resulted in more tipped passes than our protypical QB:secret:

Honoring Earl 34
12-31-2006, 03:33 PM
Because he is objective and all. hahaha

You know, I was ALL for an amicable Carr trade before today. Now, I want him to stay here to torment the "classy" fans in Houston... especially the ones that booed at the end of the game.

I say give Carr a pay raise and cut Sage, sign Jake Plummer to a huge deal, and draft a punter in the 1st round.

I love reading these haters whiny rants. Go cry for me some more.

Go watch Fresno State on Espn Classics ... their not on that channel ... oh ... never mind .

kfranco_utexas
12-31-2006, 03:35 PM
Well, I was trying to refrain from turning this into a VY vs. Carr thread b/c it is really a mute point at this time since we already passed on the chance to get him. But if you want to bring it up, VY really did more for his team than Carr did for us...and VY is only a rookie "who still needs 3-4 years to develop into a starter in the NFL" according to most "experts" and a lot of fans on this MB. Let's take a look:



(before today, which will make Carr's stats worse and VY's better BTW)
Carr: 68.6 comp%, 11 TD, 11 INT, 201 rushing w/ 2 TD, 29 poor throws, 18 passes tipped at the line

VY: 52.6 comp%, 12 TD, 11 INT, 523 rushing yds w/ 6 TD, 51 poor throws, 5 passes tipped at the line



Wow! What a drastic difference between the 5-yr starter and 1st-yr starter:shades:

And none the above stats even take into account the numerous Carr fumbles, the fact that Carr has MUCH better WRs & TEs, or the several VY 4th quarter comebacks compared to Carr's...what? maybe one?:stirpot:

P.S.--Nice to see that VY's side-arm throwing motion has really resulted in more tipped passes than our protypical QB:secret:

Great Post!:yes:

NFLforher
12-31-2006, 03:36 PM
Well? My opinion. No he didnt. Im pleased with the win, but Carr had to come out and make a statement, and I dont think he did that, expecially against a battered browns defense. What is your opinion? I do appreciate what he has done for this franchise. He has given his body for this team. A change of scenary is what is needed and I do wish Carr the best of luck down the road.


No, he did not come out and make a statement.

leachmtb
12-31-2006, 03:37 PM
Well, I was trying to refrain from turning this into a VY vs. Carr thread b/c it is really a mute point at this time since we already passed on the chance to get him. But if you want to bring it up, VY really did more for his team than Carr did for us...and VY is only a rookie "who still needs 3-4 years to develop into a starter in the NFL" according to most "experts" and a lot of fans on this MB. Let's take a look:



(before today, which will make Carr's stats worse and VY's better BTW)
Carr: 68.6 comp%, 11 TD, 11 INT, 201 rushing w/ 2 TD, 29 poor throws, 18 passes tipped at the line

VY: 52.6 comp%, 12 TD, 11 INT, 523 rushing yds w/ 6 TD, 51 poor throws, 5 passes tipped at the line



Wow! What a drastic difference between the 5-yr starter and 1st-yr starter:shades:

And none the above stats even take into account the numerous Carr fumbles, the fact that Carr has MUCH better WRs & TEs, or the several VY 4th quarter comebacks compared to Carr's...what? maybe one?:stirpot:

P.S.--Nice to see that VY's side-arm throwing motion has really resulted in more tipped passes than our protypical QB:secret:

I apologize, I was not trying to have a VY vs. Carr thing going. I was simply trying to get the absolutely subjective point of David Carr losing every game for the Texans and not winning any. It was a poor attempt at trying to poinot out absurdity (in hopes that people would recognize that VY has not WON every game for the Titans, he has made them better). No one person WINS games for a team. This is not the freaking NBA.

#Ocho
12-31-2006, 03:39 PM
Go watch Fresno State on Espn Classics ... their not on that channel ... oh ... never mind .

"their not on that channel"

Good thing you can at least spell ESPN. I'll bet you David Carr can spell "they're" correctly in context. Oh wait, we're not talking about football are we.

BTW, in case you didn't know, they've (not "they be") shown two Fresno State vs. USC games on the classics. I'll bet you were too busy with the thesaurus to notice that.

Honoring Earl 34
12-31-2006, 03:41 PM
"their not on that channel"

Good thing you can at least spell ESPN. I'll bet you David Carr can spell "they're" correctly in context. Oh wait, we're not talking about football are we.

BTW, in case you didn't know, they've (not "they be") shown two Fresno State vs. USC games on the classics. I'll bet you were too busy with the thesaurus to notice that.

Oh boo hoo ... all right I can't spell sometimes ... is that the best you got .

Talk about my dead mother next .

Napa Auto Parts
12-31-2006, 03:41 PM
Fresno State vs. USC games on the classics. I'll bet you were too busy with the thesaurus to notice that.


But do they show David Carr Destroying the Aggies the utah aggies that is.:stirpot:

old football fan
12-31-2006, 03:42 PM
I voted no he didn't do enough, but, I think he will be back next year.

fdknuckles
12-31-2006, 03:43 PM
The only thing he showed today is how he can get so locked on 1 reciever that he no longer sees the 6'3 250lb linebacker in the way

TexanLen
12-31-2006, 03:44 PM
So do we lobby for a Mario, DeMeco, A. Johnson, Carr and locker room sink for VY?

AustinJB
12-31-2006, 03:46 PM
I apologize, I was not trying to have a VY vs. Carr thing going. I was simply trying to get the absolutely subjective point of David Carr losing every game for the Texans and not winning any. It was a poor attempt at trying to poinot out absurdity (in hopes that people would recognize that VY has not WON every game for the Titans, he has made them better). No one person WINS games for a team. This is not the freaking NBA.

Okay, I can see your point.

VY has not WON every game for the Titans. But if VY had not been the QB, they probably wouldn't have led numerous 4th quarter comebacks like they did. They almost certainly wouldn't have beat us in overtime w/ a 40 yd TD run. Didn't they have a losing record before VY took over?

Carr has not lost every game for us, but if he wasn't our starting QB, we certainly wouldn't be a worse team. IMO, we would be significantly better.

The Titans would be a worse team if they didn't have VY; the Texans would probably be a better team w/out Carr.....That was the point that I was trying to make.

kfranco_utexas
12-31-2006, 03:46 PM
CP/AT YDS TD INT
D. Carr 9/15 86 0 1


CP/AT YDS TD INT
V. Young 15/36 227 0 2

#Ocho
12-31-2006, 03:49 PM
But do they show David Carr Destroying the Aggies the utah aggies that is.:stirpot:

Good point. I think the mighty Utah St. Aggies were in a far superior conference back during David's time. I think it was the Big West.

They've had good years but they are not very good right now and they'll be just as bad next year. In fact they suck almost as bad as the Texans. They used to take Prop 48 players when the Pac-10 teams couldn't take them. That's why FS used to put a lot of players into the NFL.

Napa Auto Parts
12-31-2006, 03:52 PM
Good point. I think the mighty Utah St. Aggies were in a far superior conference back during David's time. I think it was the Big West.

They've had good years but they are not very good right now and they'll be just as bad next year. In fact they suck almost as bad as the Texans. They used to take Prop 48 players when the Pac-10 teams couldn't take them. That's why FS used to put a lot of players into the NFL.


but you cant forget about the spartans san jose spartans of course.:hides:

threetoedpete
12-31-2006, 03:54 PM
I see your point that carr didn't win all of those 6 games. But, would you then be willing to say that Vince Young did not win all of his games either (especially since his kicker hit two incredible field goals). I agree that David did not win all of them, but how many people would say that VY did not win all of his?

Just about all the DC haters who have him trusted up on the whipping post. What I want to know is who stays and who goes if Kubes dissagrees with you folks ?
He did not play well today. But it was astounding to me how much better the offensive line played once Ted Washington was knocked out of the game at the half.

threetoedpete
12-31-2006, 03:57 PM
Okay, I can see your point.

VY has not WON every game for the Titans. But if VY had not been the QB, they probably wouldn't have led numerous 4th quarter comebacks like they did. They almost certainly wouldn't have beat us in overtime w/ a 40 yd TD run. Didn't they have a losing record before VY took over?

Carr has not lost every game for us, but if he wasn't our starting QB, we certainly wouldn't be a worse team. IMO, we would be significantly better.

The Titans would be a worse team if they didn't have VY; the Texans would probably be a better team w/out Carr.....That was the point that I was trying to make.

VY looked like hell today. He looked like hell two weeks ago. And unless they move the guy to WR or running back...he'll look like hell ten years from now. He is a more athletic Joe Capp. Nothing more. To Qoute Manning, " it is what it is."

#Ocho
12-31-2006, 03:59 PM
but you cant forget about the spartans san jose spartans of course.:hides:

No, you have to chalk it up to Pat Hill's "Let's go play the big boys, anywhere, anytime" mantra. Obviously, Pat Hill didn't know what a hornets nest San Jose is. Background: San Jose was going to end the football program but Dick Tomey took that program over and I predict they'll make Fresno pay next year with a Top 100 team.

You should hear the drunks call into KMJ-580 AM after FS loses a football game. It is hilarious as the "Fire Capers... err. Hill" crowd chimes in with a bit of booze on the brain. Funniest stuff there is.

Napa Auto Parts
12-31-2006, 03:59 PM
VY looked like hell today. He looked like hell two weeks ago. And unless they move the guy to WR or running back...he'll look like hell ten years from now. He is a more athletic Joe Capp. Nothing more. To Qoute Manning, " it is what it is."


if you rip a winner like VY i would hate to see how you rip david carr who is clearly a weaker QB and the next heath shuler.

kfranco_utexas
12-31-2006, 04:13 PM
if you rip a winner like VY i would hate to see how you rip david carr who is clearly a weaker QB and the next heath shuler.

VY>CARR

But there are too many Texan :homer: 's

kfranco_utexas
12-31-2006, 04:14 PM
The 15 people that said "YES' are his family members.:secret:

Spled
12-31-2006, 04:20 PM
Carr's done alright considering the personnel he's had. Considering he started with an expansion team and has never had a good o-line. The problem with running Carr out of town is that he's still young and it might come back to haunt us.

TexansFanatic
12-31-2006, 04:24 PM
Carr's done alright considering the personnel he's had. Considering he started with an expansion team and has never had a good o-line. The problem with running Carr out of town is that he's still young and it might come back to haunt us.

No, it won't. The VY fiasco will haunt us for a decade. Letting Carr go won't.

You are what you are. Anybody with eyes could see VY was, is, and always will be a winner. David simply doesn't shine like that.

Spled
12-31-2006, 04:26 PM
Vince has a much better O-line for whatever it's worth.

Johnny Utah
12-31-2006, 04:30 PM
Vince has a much better O-line for whatever it's worth.

It was a pretty aweful line when Kerry Collins was the QB.

Grid
12-31-2006, 04:35 PM
Good players find ways to make plays.

It is undeniable that having a bad oline for so long has hurt Carr's abilities as a QB. He hasnt been able to grow, positively, as a quarterback.

I think that with a good line, Carr could be a servicable QB.. but we dont have time to wait on him.. as long as he is struggling, our entire offense is struggling, and that is gonna slow this team down. We need a solid contributor at QB so we can focus on other aspects of this team.

#Ocho
12-31-2006, 04:40 PM
Good players find ways to make plays.

It is undeniable that having a bad oline for so long has hurt Carr's abilities as a QB. He hasnt been able to grow, positively, as a quarterback.

I think that with a good line, Carr could be a servicable QB.. but we dont have time to wait on him.. as long as he is struggling, our entire offense is struggling, and that is gonna slow this team down. We need a solid contributor at QB so we can focus on other aspects of this team.

Look at your logic:

1) It is undeniable that having a bad oline has hurt... etc.

Then you post this:

2) I think with a good line...etc.

Haymaker:

3) We need a solid contributer at QB... etc.

/////////////

In other words, you really haven't made a valid point. Your own logic just proved that.

threetoedpete
12-31-2006, 04:42 PM
Good players find ways to make plays.

It is undeniable that having a bad oline for so long has hurt Carr's abilities as a QB. He hasnt been able to grow, positively, as a quarterback.

I think that with a good line, Carr could be a servicable QB.. but we dont have time to wait on him.. as long as he is struggling, our entire offense is struggling, and that is gonna slow this team down. We need a solid contributor at QB so we can focus on other aspects of this team.

I agree with that Grid. And THAT post is fair. I can live with that. DC may well be toast. If Kubiack & McNair say so I'm on board to move on. But to post that a stud RB or a cast off QB is going to somehow come in here and work a different out come...that is just over looking the obvious. It was amazing how much better the o-line played once Ted Washington was knocked out of the game today. I posted two years ago if they continued to ignore the o-line DC was going to be a waited pick. We'll lose him mentally. And we did. Do I have to list all of the tackels we missed on once again. Tallent does matter.

Johnny Utah
12-31-2006, 04:44 PM
http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/2568/goodbyecarrcopyax9.jpg

Kaiser Toro
12-31-2006, 04:49 PM
We are 24-56 with Carr as the face of the franchise. Cut him and spend that 2 million savings elsewhere. Build the team, not solutions to get Carr going.

Grid
12-31-2006, 04:59 PM
Look at your logic:

1) It is undeniable that having a bad oline has hurt... etc.

Then you post this:

2) I think with a good line...etc.

Haymaker:

3) We need a solid contributer at QB... etc.

/////////////

In other words, you really haven't made a valid point. Your own logic just proved that.



Nah I made a valid point, you just didnt get it :D.

My point was that with a good Oline, I think Carr could be a "SERVICABLE" QB.. but that we dont have a good oline, and we dont know how long it will be till we DO have a good Oline.. and that this team cannot continue to grow when we have a bad QB at the helm. We need a solid QB so that we can grow in other areas and quit having an anemic offense. Its hard to tell if your car's alignment is off if it has 4 flat tires. So lets bring in a QB that can play well for us behind this oline so that we can figure our team can take the next step forward and focus on fixing our other problems, like Oline, running game, WRs with the dropsies, holes in the defense..etc..etc..etc..

On top of all that.. Carr has lost the support of the fanbase.. and they NEED to bring in a new face just to keep people positive about this team's future.

#Ocho
12-31-2006, 05:09 PM
No disrespect intended... Without me repeating myself, how can you say he would be SERVICEABLE when you next state you don't have a good OL? How can you know if he would even SERVICEABLE? What do you base that upon? How many good QB's have played for the Texans to see if they wouldn't get flattened let alone injured?

That's all I'm trying to point out. Hell, I don't know if Carr can be good or not with a good OL. You cannot make an argument that a good Brett Favre could come in and not struggle. Oh, and the Sage lovers. Okay, Sage had a good run for a few quarters. Isn't he like injured? Yeah, how many QB's could come in here and not be on the IR after a week?

Grid
12-31-2006, 05:19 PM
well i never stated it as fact.. I said that I "THINK" that he could be servicable behind a good oline. And I base that on these facts:

1. When he has time in the pocket, he makes good accurate throws to open recievers.

2. He has a good attitude, he is intelligent, well spoken, and a competitor.


I think that we would do BETTER with a different, proven QB behind our line because ive seen so many other Olines of "questionable talent" look alot better when the right QB got behind them. Alot of our sack issues are due to Carr having poor pocket presence and poor field awareness. He holds onto the ball to long sometimes, he rolls out straight into a rusher sometimes, and he just doesnt step up into the pocket sometimes.

Get a QB that does all those things and keeps a cool head, and our line wouldnt put up near as many sacks... and by association, the rest of our offense would improve.

#Ocho
12-31-2006, 05:25 PM
Okay that's valid about Dave's pocket issues. IF Kubiak decides to keep him, then I'm guessing it will be because Kube's believes Dave will be improved. Today Kubes had him throw the ball 15 times. I'm guessing (much like you are "thinking") that Kubes knows his job is on the line if DC stays and screws up next year.

I truly believe this team will be at least 9-7 next year. This assumes a good draft and injuries not being a major factor.

kfranco_utexas
12-31-2006, 05:49 PM
8-8 is the best that the texannes will do next year.:pigfly:

HoustonFrog
12-31-2006, 06:07 PM
Carr didn't do enough today or this year. He isn't a QB that Kubes or the team trusts. They have won the last two games by using the running game and by avoiding having to depend on Carr. That isn't the type of QB you want leading your team. There are many things he didn't show me this year. He still makes the same mistakes as he did in year 1 and they are things he could improve on despite a bad O-line...throwing the ball away and making smart plays AND not looking down receivers and throwing into coverage. He basically padded stats with dump offs. I hope for the organization's sake, the fan's sake and for Carr's sake they cut their ties and let the team move forward. He will never lead this team to a championship and I think the texans can realistically compete with a QB who is CONSISTENT. You can't have Raider/Patriot games mixed with good ones and expect to win. Many QBs make their O-line better...VY or Romo..Brady even did when he stepped in years ago. The excuses for the franchise need to stop. Please let him go.

OzzO
12-31-2006, 06:44 PM
This game, he managed well - as he has all season. If you're looking for a leader to carry the team to the win - look elsewhere. Overall, this season - nope. Didn't do enough (especially in relation to his pay - but hey, per Carr everyone makes alot of money in the nfl). To have the same stats, or is it more, INT's as TD's... nope - not enough. Not enough for a guaranteed starter anyway.

jerek
12-31-2006, 06:47 PM
Where's the "irrelevant" answer? I guess "yes" will suffice. It's hilarious to me that people keep pimping the idea that we're going to trade him (for who or what?) or cut him, take on the dead cap space, and then, draft or pick up ... who was it again? For what price tag that we can or want to afford?

He'll still be here next year and if Sage outperforms him, Sage will start. It's possible that we'll look for a second-day QB but past that you're fooling yourself if you believe Carr won't enter camp the starter.

dat_boy_yec
12-31-2006, 06:49 PM
I think he did enough. Alot of people seem to forget that he was the bright spot for the first few games, then surprisingly as our linemen started going down so did his performance. Towards the end as our line had begun to get used to each other he began to play better again. Hell, the guy beat the Colt's he got through a season of uncertainty and did so with 6 wins. He threw for close to 3000 yds. That feat accomplished even missing time and having a game for negative yardage.

Everybody needs to step back and look at the big picture. He threw more int.s than TD's well what does that mean. When we can get touchdown's on the ground why force it through the air. This is an over rated stat. Int's. Everybody blames Carr yet seems to forget that the other team is also paid to make great plays. Alot of those int's came off tipped balls. Tip's that came from defensive players making athletic plays that allowed their team mates to help out and make the plays, or great plays on the defensive player's parts. If you go back and look for the int's that came off plain bad throws the # is far fewer. Again this is a misleading stat. Those that say the QB rating isn't an accurate measurement of a player should recognize that the TD/ int. stat are much the same. Take them out of context and they are misleading.

To those that say, we don't have the time to wait. Let me ask this. What are you gonna do if they do keep Carr? You gonna quit rooting for the team, I mean I can understand where your coming from wanting to win, but we're just fans. All we can do is hope that the people making decision's make better decisions than we would. I for one hope they make the right choice and if that choice is keeping DC than I hope their choice pans out. I wanna see the team win as much as anybody, but time is the one thing that we have plenty of. Oh and before I forget Carr is owed 12 mil over the next 2 yrs. That's six mil. a yr. If you think that's anywhere near the top 5 QB salaries than you should do some research. I think that's all I'm gonna say on this subject for now.

MrMeToo
12-31-2006, 06:52 PM
Carr didn't do enough today or this year. He isn't a QB that Kubes or the team trusts. They have won the last two games by using the running game and by avoiding having to depend on Carr. That isn't the type of QB you want leading your team. There are many things he didn't show me this year. He still makes the same mistakes as he did in year 1 and they are things he could improve on despite a bad O-line...throwing the ball away and making smart plays AND not looking down receivers and throwing into coverage. He basically padded stats with dump offs. I hope for the organization's sake, the fan's sake and for Carr's sake they cut their ties and let the team move forward. He will never lead this team to a championship and I think the texans can realistically compete with a QB who is CONSISTENT. You can't have Raider/Patriot games mixed with good ones and expect to win. Many QBs make their O-line better...VY or Romo..Brady even did when he stepped in years ago. The excuses for the franchise need to stop. Please let him go.

Agreed.

Pantherstang84
12-31-2006, 07:09 PM
We are 24-56 with Carr as the face of the franchise. Cut him and spend that 2 million savings elsewhere. Build the team, not solutions to get Carr going.

I'll just say that I was willing to give Carr the benefit of the doubt at the start of the season.

Now I've reached a conclusion.

I really think it would be better for both parties if Carr were traded elsewhere. I think too much damage was done to him in the first 4 years to salvage him for this team. The kid's head is just too screwed up here.

As a matter of fact, I think the Texans would be doing him a big disservice by keeping him here. A change of scenery is needed for both sides.

Who knows? Maybe another team can give him a fresh start and he can be successful in this league. I really like the kid. However, I think it is time to move on.

BTW... The booing at the end of the game? :crazy:

Second Honeymoon
12-31-2006, 07:20 PM
Carr still pretty much sucks. I am sure the excuse factory that is the McNair led organization will come up with a new batch of fresh excuses to feed the masses.

Is Carr the worst QB in the league? No. But I can only think of about 4 or 5 QBs that are worse than him....and all are journeyman scrubs who earn little to no money at all.

Carr needs to go. I know it. You know it. The American people know it. Hopefully McNair figures it out one day....

painekiller
12-31-2006, 07:21 PM
Probably not enough to unequivicaly say yes or no (kind of the issue for 5 years). Probably be back because of cap and all that, but look for a development type QB to be taken in the draft. MIGHT see Plummer brought in to push him, but it will need to be relatively cheap.

Trading or cutting him will result in a zero cap next year due to the high salary he has. So It maybe time.

afcman
12-31-2006, 07:23 PM
I think that a change is best for both party's .

I agree. It just needs to happen.

Arky
12-31-2006, 07:29 PM
I think he did enough. Alot of people seem to forget that he was the bright spot for the first few games, then surprisingly as our linemen started going down so did his performance. Towards the end as our line had begun to get used to each other he began to play better again. Hell, the guy beat the Colt's he got through a season of uncertainty and did so with 6 wins. He threw for close to 3000 yds. That feat accomplished even missing time and having a game for negative yardage.

Everybody needs to step back and look at the big picture. He threw more int.s than TD's well what does that mean. When we can get touchdown's on the ground why force it through the air. This is an over rated stat. Int's. Everybody blames Carr yet seems to forget that the other team is also paid to make great plays. Alot of those int's came off tipped balls. Tip's that came from defensive players making athletic plays that allowed their team mates to help out and make the plays, or great plays on the defensive player's parts. If you go back and look for the int's that came off plain bad throws the # is far fewer. Again this is a misleading stat. Those that say the QB rating isn't an accurate measurement of a player should recognize that the TD/ int. stat are much the same. Take them out of context and they are misleading.

To those that say, we don't have the time to wait. Let me ask this. What are you gonna do if they do keep Carr? You gonna quit rooting for the team, I mean I can understand where your coming from wanting to win, but we're just fans. All we can do is hope that the people making decision's make better decisions than we would. I for one hope they make the right choice and if that choice is keeping DC than I hope their choice pans out. I wanna see the team win as much as anybody, but time is the one thing that we have plenty of. Oh and before I forget Carr is owed 12 mil over the next 2 yrs. That's six mil. a yr. If you think that's anywhere near the top 5 QB salaries than you should do some research. I think that's all I'm gonna say on this subject for now.


Good post. I can think of at least two tipped passes in the NE game and the only INT today was tipped. That brings it down to 9 INT's and I"m almost certain there are more. Say what you will, DC really has been good over his entire career about the INT's. He usually takes the sack rather than doing a Brett Favre and chunking it up into multi-coverage.

Not a real good game for him (Carr) today, though. One has to look at his whole season to make their own personal call on DC. But keep in mind, whatever your conclusion, Kubes may see it different.

Bad day for the rookie QB's around the league. Vince, Cutler, Romo (not exactly a rookie) all had L's. Leinart DNP.

aj.
12-31-2006, 07:36 PM
No.

Time to move on.

t_flare
12-31-2006, 07:47 PM
hell you have a running game like the last 4 games.... Carr just needs to improved just a little and the Texans should be 8-8 if the entire team gets a little better..

Bills game - Cook Fumble very costly
Titians game (2)- defensive breakdown in Houston and bad game by Carr and special teams in Tennessee
Giants game - Cook fumble very costly
Washington game- terrible tackling costed the game

5 games that were winnable. You improve the team like you did last year and everyone plays a little better.. we might be able to say...................playoffs? But you got to have a great offseason like you did last year.

HoustonFrog
12-31-2006, 07:57 PM
To those that say, we don't have the time to wait. Let me ask this. What are you gonna do if they do keep Carr? You gonna quit rooting for the team, I mean I can understand where your coming from wanting to win, but we're just fans. All we can do is hope that the people making decision's make better decisions than we would. I for one hope they make the right choice and if that choice is keeping DC than I hope their choice pans out. I wanna see the team win as much as anybody, but time is the one thing that we have plenty of. Oh and before I forget Carr is owed 12 mil over the next 2 yrs. That's six mil. a yr. If you think that's anywhere near the top 5 QB salaries than you should do some research. I think that's all I'm gonna say on this subject for now.

For one, time isn't what we have plenty of. This team should be way ahead of where it is and Carr isn't helping at all. Secondly, there are many people I have talked to that don't really pay attention to the Texans because of Carr. He is a joke around the league and people are still floored we passed on the QBs this year to keep the guy. As I said, if I saw things the last two years to show he improved despite theteam I'd be all aboard but the guy makes rookie mistakes and will never be counted on. Why have AJ and Moulds when you don't have a guy who can use them to their best potential?

HoustonFrog
12-31-2006, 07:59 PM
Good post. I can think of at least two tipped passes in the NE game and the only INT today was tipped. That brings it down to 9 INT's and I"m almost certain there are more. Say what you will, DC really has been good over his entire career about the INT's. He usually takes the sack rather than doing a Brett Favre and chunking it up into multi-coverage.

Not a real good game for him (Carr) today, though. One has to look at his whole season to make their own personal call on DC. But keep in mind, whatever your conclusion, Kubes may see it different.

Bad day for the rookie QB's around the league. Vince, Cutler, Romo (not exactly a rookie) all had L's. Leinart DNP.

Tipped passes ARE QBs faults. It is his job the find the passing lanes. That is lame. He takes sakes instead of sailing it into the stands. Comparing first year, rookie QBs, who have outplayed him all year to a 5 year vet is laughable. That shows you how far he HASN'T come.

dat_boy_yec
12-31-2006, 08:17 PM
For one, time isn't what we have plenty of. This team should be way ahead of where it is and Carr isn't helping at all. Secondly, there are many people I have talked to that don't really pay attention to the Texans because of Carr. He is a joke around the league and people are still floored we passed on the QBs this year to keep the guy. As I said, if I saw things the last two years to show he improved despite theteam I'd be all aboard but the guy makes rookie mistakes and will never be counted on. Why have AJ and Moulds when you don't have a guy who can use them to their best potential?

That's your opinion and I can respect that. However before the season everyone said we needed 2-3 yrs. before we would be in contention, are you saying they're all wrong? Yeah, I agree we should be ahead of where we are however are you saying all that blame falls on Carr. You saying that the rest of the team and a 1st yr. HC doesn't have something to do with that. You seem to loose sight that this is a team game. Is Young the reason the Titan's are winning? You trying to say that the defense getting turnover's scoring touchdowns and setting up Young and his offense are all attributed to Young being there? You telling me that if Cutler hadn't gone to a successful organization in Denver that he would be enjoying the same level of success? You telling me that Leinart would be doing better if he weren't with a team that just last yr. had one of the most potent passing offense's? Carr making rookie mistakes? Maybe it's you that's making rookie mistakes by not taking into account everything that has to do with the team. AJ is given plenty of opportunities, but he's not living up to his potential either. Negating a first down conversion by causing a pass int. call. Dropping balls (again) and slipping (Not really his fault mind you, but still relevant.)

Look the Texan's are in their first yr. under a new coach and if your friends want to call them a joke.... so what, let them. Their entitled to their opinion, as are you. Me though, I like my team and I don't think their a joke, matter of fact I think they're really close to being really good and IMO Carr should be a part of that team when it get's there. I'll support the team whatever choice they make, but this is my opinion. Carr should stay.

Arky
12-31-2006, 08:24 PM
Tipped passes ARE QBs faults. It is his job the find the passing lanes. That is lame..

A tipped pass means it barely missed the passing lane. It means a defender jumped up and tipped it at the last minute.

He takes sakes instead of sailing it into the stands..

Intentional grounding penalties are not good....


Comparing first year, rookie QBs, who have outplayed him all year to a 5 year vet is laughable. That shows you how far he HASN'T come.

Now where did I compare Carr to rookies? It was just an innocuous, offhand comment because previous posters had mentioned Vince.

Ya know, you really ought to see a doctor about your penile discomfort. I did. I'm a new man! :thumbup

dat_boy_yec
12-31-2006, 08:29 PM
Tipped passes ARE QBs faults. It is his job the find the passing lanes. That is lame. He takes sakes instead of sailing it into the stands. Comparing first year, rookie QBs, who have outplayed him all year to a 5 year vet is laughable. That shows you how far he HASN'T come.

Tipped passes aren't the QB's fault in most cases. It's the defenses job to jump routes and disguise coverage's. When our defense get's turnover's be it fumbles or ints. do you blame their QB or give credit to our defense for making the play. Take that into consideration before you make statement's like that. In order for the ball to be tipped or intercepted a defensive player has to, has to, you know make a play.

Comparing first yr. QB's who stepped into situation's already set up for success under tenured coaches who already have their system's in place is laughable how. It would appear they are all going into better situations than our team so the question then becomes how would they fare if they were in the same situation. Carr has been around 5 yrs. and had 4 different OC's, tell me where is the consistency there? Seems to me all those rookies have an advantage Carr never had, hell he won't even have that advantage next yr. because we just lost our OC to army.

Andrew6
12-31-2006, 08:32 PM
Carr is the best person on the team. He makes teams think he sucks and can still sometimes win games. Kinda reminds me of that Drunken martial arts. They think you're drunk and you beat them down


oh yeah Mr. Carr
Master of the Drunken martial arts Football....

Drager
12-31-2006, 08:34 PM
I think Carr is done here too. While he may still be on the roster next year, I think a veteran QB will be brought in to legitimately challenge Carr next year. I know some of his INT's were tipped balls, but the ridiculous amount of tips at the LOS just shouldn't be happening. Every other QB in the NFL can throw over D-lineman, he should know how to by now........especially since he's like 6-4 or somethingl. He also lacks the decison making skills needed to be a successful NFL QB.

the wonger need food
12-31-2006, 08:38 PM
Tipped passes aren't the QB's fault in most cases. It's the defenses job to jump routes and disguise coverage's. When our defense get's turnover's be it fumbles or ints. do you blame their QB or give credit to our defense for making the play. Take that into consideration before you make statement's like that. In order for the ball to be tipped or intercepted a defensive player has to, has to, you know make a play.

Comparing first yr. QB's who stepped into situation's already set up for success under tenured coaches who already have their system's in place is laughable how. It would appear they are all going into better situations than our team so the question then becomes how would they fare if they were in the same situation. Carr has been around 5 yrs. and had 4 different OC's, tell me where is the consistency there? Seems to me all those rookies have an advantage Carr never had, hell he won't even have that advantage next yr. because we just lost our OC to army.

Dude... if you still can't see it after this season there is no hope for ya. Very nice on the the excuse for next year also... nothing like getting a jump on the crowd.

t_flare
12-31-2006, 08:41 PM
To defend Carr lets look at this..

Peyton Manning has been in one offenseive system all his career with the same coordinator. Pro bowl receivers and pro bowl linemans

Carson Palmer sat down his first year for the team to evolve and for him to learn the system.. When he starts he has a good O-Line and 2 pro bowl recievers with a 1200+ yard back in Rudy.

Phillip Rivers sat down his first two years while the offense was set up. When he started his first game he had the best running back in the NFL, top 2 TE's in the NFL and a probowl offenseive line.

Eli Manning sat behind Kurt Warner and when he made his first start he had a top 10 receiver, top 3 TE in Shocky and Tiki Barber.

......

David Carr had Corey Bradford and Gaffeny as WR's as #1,#2 or #3 receiver. His best TE was Billy Miller. He barely got 1000 yards from DD a year. He had busts that played on the O-Line. Seth Wand,Todd Wade, Tony Bosili, Ryan Young, Mike Flagan (terrible year this year).

Then you had the offense change 2 years ago in the offseason to a short offense because they knew they couldnt protect and could find a damn Offensive lineman. Then they fired Palmer after the 3rd game of the year and promoted the O-Line coach to coordinator (nice job). Then this year the scheme change again with Kubiak.

I know you are tired of hearing its going to take time but you know what.. it will because the last regime **** up the team so bad. Bad Draft Picks, bad signings, bad coaching. It will take time.

Is Carr going to be great... Probably not but some of us believe that he can be a Jake Delhome, Trent Green, Matt Hasselback. So lets see what the team will do this offseason as they have more problems than David Carr.

axman40
12-31-2006, 08:47 PM
Carr needs to go. I know it. You know it. The American people know it. Hopefully McNair figures it out one day....
Bob Dole 's take on the Texans QB!
:stirpot:

HoustonFrog
12-31-2006, 09:24 PM
A tipped pass means it barely missed the passing lane. It means a defender jumped up and tipped it at the last minute.



Intentional grounding penalties are not good....



Now where did I compare Carr to rookies? It was just an innocuous, offhand comment because previous posters had mentioned Vince.

Ya know, you really ought to see a doctor about your penile discomfort. I did. I'm a new man! :thumbup

Yeah and that is why teams shy away from shorter QBs. You can't watch the Pats game and say his stats are skewed because of tipped passes when he was horrible in all phases..staring down receivers, etc. The reason D-lnemen know when to jump is when QBs don't look off and then find the lanes.

Who said he has to intentionally ground passes?Many games this season he was outside the pocket and ducked instead of throwing it away. The Titans game twice. I just find it funny that people compare rookies, like VY and Carr. It isn't like I never wanted Carr to succeed. The guy just makes dumb plays and it is better off if he parts ways.

Why is it that when someone can talk rationally about Carr's problems and the teams problems, that the name calling starts?Little minds.

HoustonFrog
12-31-2006, 09:31 PM
Tipped passes aren't the QB's fault in most cases. It's the defenses job to jump routes and disguise coverage's. When our defense get's turnover's be it fumbles or ints. do you blame their QB or give credit to our defense for making the play. Take that into consideration before you make statement's like that. In order for the ball to be tipped or intercepted a defensive player has to, has to, you know make a play.

Comparing first yr. QB's who stepped into situation's already set up for success under tenured coaches who already have their system's in place is laughable how. It would appear they are all going into better situations than our team so the question then becomes how would they fare if they were in the same situation. Carr has been around 5 yrs. and had 4 different OC's, tell me where is the consistency there? Seems to me all those rookies have an advantage Carr never had, hell he won't even have that advantage next yr. because we just lost our OC to army.

What you said makes no sense. Part of a defenses goal is to disrupt the QBs rhythm. When you have a QB that doesn't check off or who stares down receivers they will get in the passing lanes and "make plays" by jumping up. They study film and know tendencies. You are right, they are trained to do this. But that doesn't excuse a QB for not finding the lane. Now if a receiver tipped a pass that was catchable, I'd give you that. It is a QBs job the find the lanes though.

How do these rookies have an advantage?VY went to a team that was horrible last year. Their line was a mess and they had no running game. Kerry Collins was 0-3 and was a mess behind their line. When VY took over they started to win, the running game picked up and overall they improved. Leinart went to one of the worst franchises in the league whose line has been as bad as the Texans in past years. They have had no consistency as a franchise. Some guys know how to make the most of what they have. Carr's problem is that he makes the same mistakes he made 5 years ago and they are things that should have been mproved on despite the line.

edo783
12-31-2006, 09:49 PM
I know some of his INT's were tipped balls, but the ridiculous amount of tips at the LOS just shouldn't be happening. Every other QB in the NFL can throw over D-lineman, he should know how to by now.

Now, on the surface that sounds like it should be correct. However, look at what we have been/are doing with the O-line. Look at our splits vs. what other teams use. You will see that ours are much closer together. That is so they can do a better job of keeping the defense off the QB, but the downside is, the passing lanes are squeezed tight together so that when the defense pushes our O-line back (and we all know they do) all they have to do when the QB takes a 3 step drop is put their hands up and it is pretty much like an 8 ft wall in front of the QB. Makes it very hard to chuck the ball over when your only about 3 feet from it. To get an idea, just stand about 3 feet a 8ft wall and try to figure out how you would chuck the ball over it.

The Pencil Neck
12-31-2006, 10:01 PM
Makes it very hard to chuck the ball over when your only about 3 feet from it. To get an idea, just stand about 3 feet a 8ft wall and try to figure out how you would chuck the ball over it.

Now, try it throwing sidearm.

Second Honeymoon
12-31-2006, 10:43 PM
Good post. I can think of at least two tipped passes in the NE game and the only INT today was tipped. That brings it down to 9 INT's and I"m almost certain there are more. Say what you will, DC really has been good over his entire career about the INT's. He usually takes the sack rather than doing a Brett Favre and chunking it up into multi-coverage.

Not a real good game for him (Carr) today, though. One has to look at his whole season to make their own personal call on DC. But keep in mind, whatever your conclusion, Kubes may see it different.

Bad day for the rookie QB's around the league. Vince, Cutler, Romo (not exactly a rookie) all had L's. Leinart DNP.

Don't you realize that tipped passes are not a 'free pass' to through an INT. His release and delivery point make it easy for the defense to tip and deflect passes both at the line of scrimmage and downfield. This causes interceptions and incompletions. How anyone could discount an interception cause it was tipped is just insane. If its tipped by your own player and it was on the money, that is a different thing altogether. I can think of only one pick that was a WR (AJ) fault.

At least you can deflect criticism of a 5 year vet (carr) by mentioning the rookie QBs in the league....nice try

Arky
12-31-2006, 10:51 PM
Yeah and that is why teams shy away from shorter QBs. You can't watch the Pats game and say his stats are skewed because of tipped passes when he was horrible in all phases..staring down receivers, etc. The reason D-lnemen know when to jump is when QBs don't look off and then find the lanes.

Who said he has to intentionally ground passes?Many games this season he was outside the pocket and ducked instead of throwing it away. The Titans game twice. I just find it funny that people compare rookies, like VY and Carr. It isn't like I never wanted Carr to succeed. The guy just makes dumb plays and it is better off if he parts ways.

Why is it that when someone can talk rationally about Carr's problems and the teams problems, that the name calling starts?Little minds.


Whelp, after reading your "rationale", I find it some of it hyperbole ("throw it in the stands"), opinionated and some just really harsh criticism. In fact, I wonder if there is any quarterback in the solar system that would meet your approval. Some people think they've "discovered" things that no one else has figured out. Things that even coaching staffs (who should be the experts) don't know about.

However, there's nothing wrong with having an opinion and having a rational discussion on a message board. IMO, the quarterback is the easiest target on the field to throw rocks at when a team is losing. And sadly, our "fans" throw rocks at the quarterback even when he's winning. I'm in the camp that there are bigger problems than the quarterback.

IMO, there's a good chance that DC is back next year so the people that are ranting about the quarterback now, can probably look forward to more of the same next year. And frankly, reading all the negativity and the non-stop harping on the QB (even when the team finished the season with two W's) I find kinda........ not understandable.

Corrosion
12-31-2006, 10:53 PM
Carr was vintage Carr today .... 9 of 15 for 86 yards , One Int and NO TD's against a very average pass defense .
If this franchise is serious about winning Its time to find an upgrade at the most important position on the field ...... One TD pass in a Nine game span isnt acceptable for an NFL QB.

Arky
12-31-2006, 10:56 PM
Don't you realize that tipped passes are not a 'free pass' to through an INT. His release and delivery point make it easy for the defense to tip and deflect passes both at the line of scrimmage and downfield. This causes interceptions and incompletions. How anyone could discount an interception cause it was tipped is just insane. If its tipped by your own player and it was on the money, that is a different thing altogether. I can think of only one pick that was a WR (AJ) fault.

At least you can deflect criticism of a 5 year vet (carr) by mentioning the rookie QBs in the league....nice try

See above.

mganz
12-31-2006, 10:59 PM
well i never stated it as fact.. I said that I "THINK" that he could be servicable behind a good oline. And I base that on these facts:

1. When he has time in the pocket, he makes good accurate throws to open recievers.

2. He has a good attitude, he is intelligent, well spoken, and a competitor.


I think that we would do BETTER with a different, proven QB behind our line because ive seen so many other Olines of "questionable talent" look alot better when the right QB got behind them. Alot of our sack issues are due to Carr having poor pocket presence and poor field awareness. He holds onto the ball to long sometimes, he rolls out straight into a rusher sometimes, and he just doesnt step up into the pocket sometimes.

Get a QB that does all those things and keeps a cool head, and our line wouldnt put up near as many sacks... and by association, the rest of our offense would improve.

THEN LETS FIX THE O-LINE... I keep hearing the "if he had a line.....". If that is the case then why let him go, just fix the damn line

cuppacoffee
12-31-2006, 11:26 PM
Where's the "irrelevant" answer? I guess "yes" will suffice. It's hilarious to me that people keep pimping the idea that we're going to trade him (for who or what?) or cut him, take on the dead cap space, and then, draft or pick up ... who was it again? For what price tag that we can or want to afford?

He'll still be here next year and if Sage outperforms him, Sage will start. It's possible that we'll look for a second-day QB but past that you're fooling yourself if you believe Carr won't enter camp the starter.

Jerek..Once again the voice of reason.. :thumbup


:coffee:

dat_boy_yec
12-31-2006, 11:35 PM
What you said makes no sense. Part of a defenses goal is to disrupt the QBs rhythm. When you have a QB that doesn't check off or who stares down receivers they will get in the passing lanes and "make plays" by jumping up. They study film and know tendencies. You are right, they are trained to do this. But that doesn't excuse a QB for not finding the lane. Now if a receiver tipped a pass that was catchable, I'd give you that. It is a QBs job the find the lanes though.

How do these rookies have an advantage?VY went to a team that was horrible last year. Their line was a mess and they had no running game. Kerry Collins was 0-3 and was a mess behind their line. When VY took over they started to win, the running game picked up and overall they improved. Leinart went to one of the worst franchises in the league whose line has been as bad as the Texans in past years. They have had no consistency as a franchise. Some guys know how to make the most of what they have. Carr's problem is that he makes the same mistakes he made 5 years ago and they are things that should have been mproved on despite the line.

Okay, then tell me, you obviously know what you're talking about as how you watch all the games so closely. Today at the game he had a tipped pass that resulted in an interception. I don't know if you were at the game, but if you were AJ was running a slant or crossing route that had that ball not been tipped would have been right on the money. The LB simply did a good job diguising his zone and getting his fingers on the ball. 2 weeks ago against the Pat's Seymour a 6'6'' DE jumped straight up hands extended upward and hit the ball straight up. Had he been less aware the ball would have landed to the ground another pass defended, but he followed the ball and caught it. I couldn't see the receiver as it was on TV. The second int. came from Bruschi diving across the field against the balls trajectory and altered the path. I watched that replay many times to make sure I was right, but the initial trajectory was perfect and a defensive player once again fully extended to make the play deserve's credit. However had Bruschi not made that play it would have been on Mould's to make the catch because it was definetely on it's way there. I'm not going to go back throughout the entire season for you, but on each one of these plays you completely ignore what a good job the defense does in order to lay the blame at Carr's feet.

Are you kidding me? You pay attention to what your talking about? Jeff Fisher has had a long history of success, last yr. was a down yr. with them having such a young group, Kerry Collins was picked up right before the season got underway, he didn't have the same amount of time as VY to learn the playbook. He too was put at a disadvantage. Add to that Kerry isn't a mobile QB and Fisher and Chow were working on an offense that would be more tailor made for Young that was just going to be a bad fit. The defense took a while to gel and even now they aren't great, but get turnover's that compensate for their poor defense. They were also alternating RB's before somebody finally started stepping up. God, do you really need me to paint a picture for you. Arizona's line was bad @ run blocking, however their pass blocking was/ is way above avg. hence last yrs. passing performance.

If what I'm saying doesn't make sense it's not because I'm not explaining myself, but you simply don't want to concede any of my points. Is Carr supposed to coach himself, how is he supposed to know which tendencies he's supposed to pick up when every OC he goes through asks different things of him?

edo783
12-31-2006, 11:38 PM
THEN LETS FIX THE O-LINE... I keep hearing the "if he had a line.....". If that is the case then why let him go, just fix the damn line

There has been a group on this board that have wanted just that to happen for a fairly long time. It's been bandaided, but never really addressed. Had more than a little bad luck this year with injuries and wound up being worse than they probably would have been if all were healthy and learning to work together.

Odogg
01-01-2007, 03:10 AM
David Carr is pure, 100% garbage. There is no "fixing the oline" with him. It will never be fixed since we would need the AFC starting pro bowl team in order to make him somewhat decent. That is not going to happen. Why don't you check out the Pats Oline these days. Lost pro bowl vets to free agency and have started 3-4 rookies this year due to injuries. Yet Tom Brady still makes it happen, doesn't he? The cold hard fact is Kubiak Gameplans AROUND David Carr to where he doesn't have the chance to A) Take a Sack
B) Fumble C) Perform a boneheaded play D) All of the Above. In the NFL, you CANNOT win consistently (enough to make the playoffs) unless you have a solid, CONSISTENT, player at QB. Look at the list of QB's in the AFC that made the playoffs:
1> Rivers (With LT,Gates)
2> McNair (Probowler, Co-Mvp)
3> Manning
4> Brady
5> Pennington (Good decisions, noodle arm)
6> Green (Vet with solid past seasons)

All consistent QB's who you know pretty much what you're going to get out of them each game. With Carr you can get anything from -5 yards passing with 4 fumbles to 90 yards passing with only 1 turnover. Not reliable. If/When we roll him out next year, I guarantee we don't sniff 7 wins. AGAIN.

threetoedpete
01-01-2007, 03:42 AM
Ho humm. Another DC sucks thread. A lot of you guys are going to look really funny if Kubiak bows his neck on DC this off season. What I heard to night was he don't know yet.

What I do know...for a fact...The Denver coach thought so much of Jake...that when faced with the choice of the wounded rookie with the minor concussion or Jake the Snake...with the play offs on the line, Shanahand picked the rook. Don't know what that told you. What it told me is that the reports of the move to pick the guy up are greatly exaggerated.

Scooter
01-01-2007, 03:44 AM
i'm a very patient person and a very laid back personality. our offensive line is terrible and we've yet to find a consistant running game. my stance on carr's supporting cast is obvious. few quarterbacks are going to excell in our current situation.

david carr cannot, and will not succeed in houston. whether he has more success somewhere else is anyone's guess, but i've FINALLY reached my breaking point. david carr has done more to hinder this team than he's done to help the team. his mechanics are regressing, his confidence is gone, his decision making is as bad as ever, his accuracy has declined, and he's unable to make the simplest of reads. whether you're using ONLY his 2006 season or all 5 years combined, david carr is unfit to quarterback the houston texans. i've been blaming everyone else (and deservedly so) for carr's problems, but i've come to realize that even when the supporting cast is in top form, carr is unable to get the job done. i'm not sure of his salary impact if we were to trade or release him, but i for one would be much more optomistic with sage or a veteran quarterback taking carr's place until we found a legitimate replacement.

Grid
01-01-2007, 03:49 AM
Why not just fix the oline?.. wow, havent I already explained that like, 2 freaking times in this thread?

People dont read..geez. if you want me to explain my point of view, make sure you actually read my post.... not just skimmed enough of it to get yourself angry.



My personal point of view is that I dont want a QB that has to have great protection to play above a pop warner level. I want a QB that helps the team win, not one that needs the team to help him win.

threetoedpete
01-01-2007, 03:54 AM
Thank you EDO. IF DC is toast then he's toast. But to say, with our busts at tackle, Boselli, Tucker, Wade, Wand, and I keep missing one...that it makes absolutly no difference, is painting the poster with the obsession brush. To ignore it again under the circumstances the club finds itself would be foolish. That's five guys in five years. Tallent make a difference. You wanna feast on the judas goat...be my guest. But if I'm disgussed by it and don't happen to join in the dog pile...I'm only tring to be fair. I did see the guy without regard to his body..throw himself into a pile to pick up a first down. I believe no one is more frustrated at his progress than DC. If he's pressing and not getting the job done, I think he's got reasons in spades. Just me. Here's the whip back...continue.

Scooter
01-01-2007, 04:03 AM
Ho humm. Another DC sucks thread. A lot of you guys are going to look really funny if Kubiak bows his neck on DC this off season. What I heard to night was he don't know yet.

What I do know...for a fact...The Denver coach thought so much of Jake...that when faced with the choice of the wounded rookie with the minor concussion or Jake the Snake...with the play offs on the line, Shanahand picked the rook. Don't know what that told you. What it told me is that the reports of the move to pick the guy up are greatly exaggerated.

plummer was 7-4 as a starter for the broncos this year and 13-3 last year (winning 9+ consecutive home games), along with reaching the playoffs every year as a bronco (until cutler took over). plummer even managed to get the pathetic cardinals to the playoffs in 98 (the last time they had a winning record). cutler went 2-3 and by looking at their records, cost denver a chance at the playoffs. mmmm rookies. oh, and since you and denver fans forgot ... john elway couldnt win the big one either. it took him 14 years to win a superbowl ... plummer was crucified for not winning the big one after 3 years. since cutler is the next elway ... write the broncos off until 2020.

i'd gladly take plummer because we've see how he responds under kubiak.

threetoedpete
01-01-2007, 04:07 AM
And I say Shanahand has already voted in spades. We'll see how it plays out.
My book says Jake is not an option.

Scooter
01-01-2007, 05:57 AM
edited.

Vinny
01-01-2007, 10:22 AM
The team has obviously scales back the offense to keep Carr from losing the games. All you need to do is watch the last half of the season as Carr is less and less a part of the game plan and more and more a "game manager"....you know, like the game plan the back up QB usually gets when a starter goes down. I commented that Capers did this with Carr years ago and people just bashed me...but heck, it's just plain obvious we do it today with nearly 80 NFL Starts under his belt. It's a time for a change...in a big way.

MrMeToo
01-01-2007, 12:44 PM
What exactly did Carr do to earn his job in the Browns game?

The Pencil Neck
01-01-2007, 12:47 PM
What exactly did Carr do to earn his job in the Browns game?

He threw for less than 100 yards and only one interception.

It's very hard to do that. Not everyone can compile Kyle Ortonesque numbers.

mganz
01-01-2007, 12:57 PM
Why not just fix the oline?.. wow, havent I already explained that like, 2 freaking times in this thread?

People dont read..geez. if you want me to explain my point of view, make sure you actually read my post.... not just skimmed enough of it to get yourself angry.



My personal point of view is that I dont want a QB that has to have great protection to play above a pop warner level. I want a QB that helps the team win, not one that needs the team to help him win.

You don't want a QB to have great protection? WTF? I'm not even talking about great protection i'm talking about just average protection. Everything doesn't have to be great but it should be at least average. Now, go get a pair of panties that fit so not to bind.

The Pencil Neck
01-01-2007, 02:08 PM
You don't want a QB to have great protection? WTF? I'm not even talking about great protection i'm talking about just average protection. Everything doesn't have to be great but it should be at least average. Now, go get a pair of panties that fit so not to bind.

We've already got average protection. Our line looks worse than it is because of poor pocket presence, holding the ball too long, and making bad reads.

Sure, we need to improve our line. But Carr is going to continue to make the same mistakes regardless of improved line play.

mganz
01-01-2007, 02:34 PM
We've already got average protection. Our line looks worse than it is because of poor pocket presence, holding the ball too long, and making bad reads.

Sure, we need to improve our line. But Carr is going to continue to make the same mistakes regardless of improved line play.

When you have one of the worst o-line in the NFL you can't say it is average. Over a 5 year period there has been few "pockets" to sit in.

I agree that he has held the ball too long allowing a sack. However, when your in a 3 step drop and you get hit on the 3rd step he didn't hold the ball too long. Same goes for the 5 and seven steps.

For the most part, when Carr has had time to step up in a pocket he has been pretty accurate.

IMO if most people say that he would be good with a "real" o-line, then I think that we should fix the line.

I still think we give him 1 more year in the same system with the same coach and see if he improves. If not then release/trade him after next season. Then we don't take as much of a hit on the cap.

I also think we should bring in another QB through FA/Draft to learn that system (draft) or push carr

Second Honeymoon
01-01-2007, 02:47 PM
When you have one of the worst o-line in the NFL you can't say it is average. Over a 5 year period there has been few "pockets" to sit in.

I agree that he has held the ball too long allowing a sack. However, when your in a 3 step drop and you get hit on the 3rd step he didn't hold the ball too long. Same goes for the 5 and seven steps.

For the most part, when Carr has had time to step up in a pocket he has been pretty accurate.

IMO if most people say that he would be good with a "real" o-line, then I think that we should fix the line.

I still think we give him 1 more year in the same system with the same coach and see if he improves. If not then release/trade him after next season. Then we don't take as much of a hit on the cap.

I also think we should bring in another QB through FA/Draft to learn that system (draft) or push carr

continue to blame everyone but Carr...just par for the course with the sheeple around here and the braindead fanboy owner

mganz
01-01-2007, 02:57 PM
continue to blame everyone but Carr...just par for the course with the stupid morons around here and in ownership positions

I don't hold Carr blameless, but I don't blame him solely. Thats the point. And as far as the name calling goes, i'll hold on to that for the another time. That just tells me what kind of person yall are.

We had no football here for what? 6/7 year prior to the Texans, I can wait another year.

I will support whoever plays for our team.

Second Honeymoon
01-01-2007, 03:38 PM
I don't hold Carr blameless, but I don't blame him solely. Thats the point. And as far as the name calling goes, i'll hold on to that for the another time. That just tells me what kind of person yall are.

We had no football here for what? 6/7 year prior to the Texans, I can wait another year.

I will support whoever plays for our team.

What do you mean 'wait another year'? Are you trying to tell me that everything is gonna be fine next year? You gotta be kidding me...

..but whatever 'wait till next year' is the same drivel I have been hearing out of the apologists and homers for the past 3 years...why should I expect anything different this year?

If Carr will restructure his deal and free up a few million in cap space for the betterment of the team and for the betterment of his own career, I am OK with him coming and competing for the starting job. If its just the same old no competition/'he's our guy' load of BS with the same stupid f-ing contract, then we will just flatline and coast through another season just like the rest of the losing seasons we have had.

HoustonFrog
01-01-2007, 04:03 PM
continue to blame everyone but Carr...just par for the course with the sheeple around here and the braindead fanboy owner

Could not agree more. I'm stunned that the minority is so intent on wanting to "rebuild" and trust someone who has shown nothing after 5 years. I mean isn't it just as easy to say that the O-line is getting a bad rap because Carr takes unnecessary sacks?He isn't the only blame here but he isn't a guy who will ever win a championship for Houston. You CAN'T sit here and every year want to give Carr a perfect bubble to work in...."he needs a RB, he needs a line, he needs a second receiver, he needs a TE." Championship QBs make plays with what they have and help lead their team. He still shows that he isn't smart enough to grasp what he needs to do to show improvement.

Second Honeymoon
01-01-2007, 04:13 PM
Could not agree more. I'm stunned that the minority is so intent on wanting to "rebuild" and trust someone who has shown nothing after 5 years. I mean isn't it just as easy to say that the O-line is getting a bad rap because Carr takes unnecessary sacks?He isn't the only blame here but he isn't a guy who will ever win a championship for Houston. You CAN'T sit here and every year want to give Carr a perfect bubble to work in...."he needs a RB, he needs a line, he needs a second receiver, he needs a TE." Championship QBs make plays with what they have and help lead their team. He still shows that he isn't smart enough to grasp what he needs to do to show improvement.

lack of smarts
lack of dedication
lack of good fundamental QB habits (release point, making reads, looking off his target)
lack of chutzpah/intangibles
lack of mental toughness
lack of wins

david has physical toughness, an accurate and strong yet fundamentally flawed arm, and is a good citizen. I think the negatives far outweigh the positives and have felt this way for going on 4 years....it's not personal its all business....QB is just a job to him..its not a passion..by definition he is not a 'gamer'

Napa Auto Parts
01-01-2007, 08:32 PM
WoW 72 percent dont think david did enough im thinking the feeling is city wide. im personally tired of our local sports radio turning in to the bash carr show even mark vandecarr cant put and end to it. well good luck to where ever david carr goes more than likely the CFL.:hides:

TPIMP
01-01-2007, 09:30 PM
I like David Carr,but I don't think he did enough, not for the am't of money he is getting paid. I used to defend that argument, but now wondering. If there was a restructure of his contract, Iwould be happy.. I know the OL was injured this season and we went through multiple line variation, but if Carr is back I will support him, but I won't be suprised if he isn't back. But as someone said, if he is getting paid as a top 5 QB, then we don't need to see 2nd half of the season slumps..

Top 5 QB??? Carr isn't in the top 5 highest paid QB's in the league. He isn't even the highest paid Texan.

texman8
01-01-2007, 09:53 PM
I see your point that carr didn't win all of those 6 games. But, would you then be willing to say that Vince Young did not win all of his games either (especially since his kicker hit two incredible field goals). I agree that David did not win all of them, but how many people would say that VY did not win all of his?

Let's not compare DC and VY. I just worry about the fate of Texans.
Carr got worst as the season progressed. Look at Bears, Grossman got worse; they won because of their defense and special teams. You could say Texans won in spite of Carr. I was willing to give Carr another chance this season; I no longer believe He is the answer for the Texans.

utahmark
01-01-2007, 10:43 PM
Let's not compare DC and VY. I just worry about the fate of Texans.
Carr got worst as the season progressed. Look at Bears, Grossman got worse; they won because of their defense and special teams. You could say Texans won in spite of Carr. I was willing to give Carr another chance this season; I no longer believe He is the answer for the Texans.

im not convinced either at this point. but if you will look carr got worse as the offensive line started falling apart with injuries. even some of the carr haters started changing their tune after the first of the season.

since we are not gonna save a whole lot by letting him go, might as well keep him. just make sure we get someone in here who can compete and if need be start.

just think its stupid to throw him away when i saw a lot of progress earlier in the year.

one thing is for sure carr cant do it without a competent o-line. he's proved that.

HoustonFrog
01-01-2007, 10:46 PM
im not convinced either at this point. but if you will look carr got worse as the offensive line started falling apart with injuries. even some of the carr haters started changing their tune after the first of the season.

since we are not gonna save a whole lot by letting him go, might as well keep him. just make sure we get someone in here who can compete and if need be start.

just think its stupid to throw him away when i saw a lot of progress earlier in the year.

one thing is for sure carr cant do it without a competent o-line. he's proved that.

That is what bothers me. No NFL team goes through a season without injuries and problems. You can't just keep a guy and say, "as long as things are perfect, he is competent." He is very up and down and what this team needs more than anything is consistency. They don't have faith in him. I am tired of his 5 years of "progress" and think it would do the team, Carr, the fans and the city a whole lot of good to start fresh and let him go. He will never bring a Championship here.

jayjordan
01-01-2007, 10:47 PM
I see your point that carr didn't win all of those 6 games. But, would you then be willing to say that Vince Young did not win all of his games either (especially since his kicker hit two incredible field goals). I agree that David did not win all of them, but how many people would say that VY did not win all of his?

VY didnt win the games but kept the team in a good postion to win with his running ability and leadership, something DC cant do.

utahmark
01-01-2007, 10:58 PM
That is what bothers me. No NFL team goes through a season without injuries and problems. You can't just keep a guy and say, "as long as things are perfect, he is competent." He is very up and down and what this team needs more than anything is consistency. They don't have faith in him. I am tired of his 5 years of "progress" and think it would do the team, Carr, the fans and the city a whole lot of good to start fresh and let him go. He will never bring a Championship here.


i dont think you see what im saying. he played better when the line was playing fairly well early in the season. he didnt start playing poorly untill the line started having all the injuries.

their are not many qb's that can play well with a bad line. you wanna gamble that we get one off these few players in the draft our free agency. with a good line carr can be good. not all qb's can. if we are not gonna improve the line then yes we should let him go. but if we gonna get a good offensive line here than give him a chance we have already paid him. just make sure we have other option in case im wrong.

The Pencil Neck
01-01-2007, 11:19 PM
I was willing to give Carr another chance this season; I no longer believe He is the answer for the Texans.

I was/am in the same boat. I defended Carr in the pre-season and during the first part of the season. There was a poll about how much leash we should give Carr and I voted for a year. I also put some fairly specific stats that I wanted him to hit. I basically wanted him to have a season similar to his best season with a better TD/int ratio: 3500 yards, 60+ completion percentage, 16+ TD's, <10 ints. The only thing he hit was the completion percentage. And that's just not enough. And frankly, I really would have been happy with 210 yards per game.

But I hadn't put any restrictions on fumbles and his ball security was just horribly bad. His fumbles killed us in several games.

jayjordan
01-01-2007, 11:26 PM
Whoever thinks he has done enough or has done good they need to get off his.......................:wow: :stirpot:

carter08
01-02-2007, 12:40 AM
Carr is done.
Sage is the future

SESupergenius
01-02-2007, 09:34 AM
Carr had a pretty bad game yesterday and was given every opportunity to elevate his play. His passes were off and his decision making was poor. with all the turnovers that the defense caused, we should have blown them out.

i pegged our wins at 6-10 this year, but I am really questioning Carr right as I thought he would be getting better. The interception is fine, it was a tipped ball and i expect a QB to get at least 1 int a game, but no TD's is what is really bothering me. We just can't seem to score points off the pass, that is a direct reflection of the QB.

That being said, there really isn't much we can do with Carr other than trade him and at least get something for him. We have to bring him back and have a healthy competition for the starting spot.

real
01-02-2007, 09:40 AM
Carr had a pretty bad game yesterday and was given every opportunity to elevate his play. His passes were off and his decision making was poor. with all the turnovers that the defense caused, we should have blown them out.

i pegged our wins at 6-10 this year, but I am really questioning Carr right as I thought he would be getting better. The interception is fine, it was a tipped ball and i expect a QB to get at least 1 int a game, but no TD's is what is really bothering me. We just can't seem to score points off the pass, that is a direct reflection of the QB.

That being said, there really isn't much we can do with Carr other than trade him and at least get something for him. We have to bring him back and have a healthy competition for the starting spot.

WoW....I never thought I'd see the day....


But one thing I disagree on is that interception....

Yeah it's fine to get one a game, if you are challenging the defense deep, and completing a lot of passes....But with such a small sample size, and low number of completions interceptions like that one can be crucial...

SESupergenius
01-02-2007, 09:57 AM
WoW....I never thought I'd see the day....


But one thing I disagree on is that interception....

Yeah it's fine to get one a game, if you are challenging the defense deep, and completing a lot of passes....But with such a small sample size, and low number of completions interceptions like that one can be crucial...
I've criticized him before, why is that a big deal? Go back and look at some of my critiques on the team, they range anywhere from the Carr to lines to Dunta. QB have bad games....oh wait, all players have bad games. The difference is that I don't have these blinders on and actually HATE the guy and never give him credit. He played very well at the beginning of the season when the team had no running game and no play makers, but I doubt you gave him any credit. We are 3-2 the last 5 games with an OT loss to the Titans, if we would have won the coin flip and had a chance to score first, that it would have made us 4-1. That would have been tough for the Carr haters to handle. Anyhow, I'm still not convinced that Sage is the QB of the future and with a luke warm QB draft class, I don't see us finding a QB that makes me go wow. Besides, QB in the Kubiak system is not the focal point, it's the running game and sometimes people put too much emphasis in it.

SESupergenius
01-02-2007, 09:59 AM
I was/am in the same boat. I defended Carr in the pre-season and during the first part of the season. There was a poll about how much leash we should give Carr and I voted for a year. I also put some fairly specific stats that I wanted him to hit. I basically wanted him to have a season similar to his best season with a better TD/int ratio: 3500 yards, 60+ completion percentage, 16+ TD's, <10 ints. The only thing he hit was the completion percentage. And that's just not enough. And frankly, I really would have been happy with 210 yards per game.

But I hadn't put any restrictions on fumbles and his ball security was just horribly bad. His fumbles killed us in several games.

I was in the same boat, I gave him a year as well. Although I think I had him higher at 18 TD's and 11 int's and around 3500 yards as well. He fell short. Injuries may have hampered his stats, but he really didn't elevate his game and go out on a good note.

real
01-02-2007, 10:00 AM
Besides, QB in the Kubiak system is not the focal point, it's the running game and sometimes people put too much emphasis in it.

Is that why they only won the big one with Elway ?

I don't know about Kubiaks system, but this is a QB's leauge, and winning with below average play at that position is the exception, not the rule...

SESupergenius
01-02-2007, 10:08 AM
Is that why they only won the big one with Elway ?

I don't know about Kubiaks system, but this is a QB's leauge, and winning with below average play at that position is the exception, not the rule...
Terrell Davis had a lot to do with that, Elway said so himself. Not minimizing Elway, he is a Hall of Famer, but again, people undervalue the running game too much. It's a team game and QB's tend to be overrated as far as their value to the team. Just look at the last Super Bowl, Roethlisberger didn't do squat and the running game took the game over. That is what I'd like to see, and we saw a bit of that against the Colts. But really more important than that is a solid defense, but that is another discussion.

real
01-02-2007, 10:11 AM
Terrell Davis had a lot to do with that, Elway said so himself. Not minimizing Elway, he is a Hall of Famer, but again, people undervalue the running game too much. It's a team game and QB's tend to be overrated as far as their value to the team. Just look at the last Super Bowl, Roethlisberger didn't do squat and the running game took the game over. That is what I'd like to see, and we saw a bit of that against the Colts. But really more important than that is a solid defense, but that is another discussion.

I agree with this...

Hulk75
01-02-2007, 10:27 AM
Did the Oline and RBs to enough, did the Defense do enough?

How about that for a Poll?

NO AND NO AND NO>

SESupergenius
01-02-2007, 10:57 AM
I agree with this...
Back at you..WoW....I never thought I'd see the day....

LOL. Have a Happy New Year!

SESupergenius
01-02-2007, 10:59 AM
Did the Oline and RBs to enough, did the Defense do enough?

How about that for a Poll?

NO AND NO AND NO>
Well said. RB's were missing for 3/4 of the year. Oline was missing for most of the year as well. The defense was spotty but actually caused turnovers towards the end. Demeco is just awesome to watch. Give us a solid CB at the #1 spot and a DT who can cause havok and we are in business. Well, maybe a safety or two.

TheOgre
01-02-2007, 11:25 AM
The only way I want to see Carr or Sage as our 2007 opening day starter is if we have a rookie in tow.

mamoo
01-02-2007, 01:21 PM
It basically comes down to this. 5 years of inconsistency. You need to be consistent at QB. Carr's also had more bad games than good... and more games leading the offense to under 20 than over. Carr is a nice guy and hard worker, but he's no better than a back up quarterback.

Vinny
01-02-2007, 01:23 PM
Terrell Davis had a lot to do with that, Elway said so himself. Not minimizing Elway, he is a Hall of Famer, but again, people undervalue the running game too much. It's a team game and QB's tend to be overrated as far as their value to the team. Just look at the last Super Bowl, Roethlisberger didn't do squat and the running game took the game over. That is what I'd like to see, and we saw a bit of that against the Colts. But really more important than that is a solid defense, but that is another discussion.
Elway also won 12 playoff games and played in 5 Super Bowls while the incredible Denver running game could only win one playoff game since he left with zero Super Bowl appearances since he has been gone. I'd say Elway was the difference maker.

Mr. White
01-02-2007, 01:26 PM
Did the Oline and RBs to enough, did the Defense do enough?

How about that for a Poll?

NO AND NO AND NO>

You forgot the receivers. Funny how it's always the other 52 guys' faults.

Vinny
01-02-2007, 01:27 PM
You forgot the receivers. Funny how it's always the other 52 guys' faults.This was a .500 team if the QB makes some plays....we are paying this guy franchise money to not hurt the team. That's what the problem is.

Hulk75
01-02-2007, 01:38 PM
You forgot the receivers. Funny how it's always the other 52 guys' faults.

YEA!!!!!! Make a case for them, make a case for the beloved Dunta Robinson who had 2 picks on the year make a case for the lineman that gave up 41 sacks, we did not have a back go over JUST 1,000 yards again, Dre lead the AFC in drops, Did Carr play great NOPE! But did everyone else get a FREE PASS YES!!!!!!!!!!

Dunta is made out of Burnt Toast, we win then goes and sucks up to the fans like he did something to the Colts.

Dont pin this on 1 guy, O waite I forgot were I lived for a second.

real
01-02-2007, 01:42 PM
YEA!!!!!! Make a case for them, make a case for the beloved Dunta Robinson who had 2 picks on the year make a case for the lineman that gave up 41 sacks, we did not have a back go over JUST 1,000 yards again, Dre lead the AFC in drops, Did Carr play great NOPE! But did everyone else get a FREE PASS YES!!!!!!!!!!

Dunta is made out of Burnt Toast, we win then goes and sucks up to the fans like he did something to the Colts.

Dont pin this on 1 guy, O waite I forgot were I lived for a second.

I really can't believe this is still an argument...

real
01-02-2007, 01:44 PM
Hulk75....We're paying franchise money for a QB who we want to stay out of the way....

What does that have to do with anyone else?

TXGRL
01-02-2007, 01:48 PM
I really had high hopes for Carr this season. He definately has the arm. Bottom line, he hasn't performed this year as we hoped. He lacks leadership on the field and is still making to many mistakes.

Tulip
01-02-2007, 01:49 PM
You forgot the receivers. Funny how it's always the other 52 guys' faults.

Don't forget the coaches and the GM. And McNair for not making Kubiak pick Reggie Bush.

Hulk75
01-02-2007, 01:54 PM
This was a .500 team if the QB makes some plays....we are paying this guy franchise money to not hurt the team. That's what the problem is.

Thats the problem, how many of our guys would you take over guys in the Playoffs right now, dont count QBs just what those QBs have to work with.

Dayne Wali or Dillon, Moroney/ Duece, Bush/ Adai, Rohdes/ Larry Johnson/ LT, Burner Turner/ Shaun Alexander, Mo Morris/ Jones, Barber III/ Westbrook, Buck/ Benson, Thomas/ Jammal Lewis/ Tiki, BIG DOG............Which would you rather have over our RBs............Hard is it not.

Oline ours or............the Colts, Giants, Saints, Chargers, Chiefs, Eagles, Ravens, Seahawks, Bears, Patriots, Cowboys.......Hard one there too.

Our TEs or............Dallas Clark, Jeremy Shockey, Tony G, Todd Heap, Daniel Graham, Jason Witten, Jeremy Stevens.

Defense, sure this helps the QB as well..........Ours or the Chargers, Eagles, Seahawks, Saints, Bears, Patriots, Ravens..........Colts suck!

You want this guy to take us to the promise land and play like all these other QBs but nobody stops to realize that the other 52!!!!! Guys Make a HUGE impact on 1 guy, not the other way around!

Tulip
01-02-2007, 01:59 PM
You want this guy to take us to the promise land and play like all these other QBs but nobody stops to realize that the other 52!!!!! Guys Make a HUGE impact on 1 guy, not the other way around!

This is probably the wrong season to be making that argument.

Trenches
01-02-2007, 02:00 PM
Thats the problem, how many of our guys would you take over guys in the Playoffs right now, dont count QBs just what those QBs have to work with.

Dayne Wali or Dillon, Moroney/ Duece, Bush/ Adai, Rohdes/ Larry Johnson/ LT, Burner Turner/ Shaun Alexander, Mo Morris/ Jones, Barber III/ Westbrook, Buck/ Benson, Thomas/ Jammal Lewis/ Tiki, BIG DOG............Which would you rather have over our RBs............Hard is it not.

Oline ours or............the Colts, Giants, Saints, Chargers, Chiefs, Eagles, Ravens, Seahawks, Bears, Patriots, Cowboys.......Hard one there too.

Our TEs or............Dallas Clark, Jeremy Shockey, Tony G, Todd Heap, Daniel Graham, Jason Witten, Jeremy Stevens.

Defense, sure this helps the QB as well..........Ours or the Chargers, Eagles, Seahawks, Saints, Bears, Patriots, Ravens..........Colts suck!

You want this guy to take us to the promise land and play like all these other QBs but nobody stops to realize that the other 52!!!!! Guys Make a HUGE impact on 1 guy, not the other way around!


so if they plugged Peyton Manning in at QB he would have David Carr-like numbers?

no doubt the lack of talent around him affects his numbers, but it doesnt affect his decisions or judgement. bottom line is that he has not demonstrated he can play QB effectively...even when he has time to throw. being a QB is about processing a LOT of information in a hurry, making a good decision and then physically following thru on it.

Mr. White
01-02-2007, 02:10 PM
One good QB can make the other "sucky" 52 guys better. Ask any Titans fan.

That "sucky" O-Line that Carr fans point to wasn't so much of a problem for Sage Rosenfels when he came in. At least Sage could complete passes for more than 4 yards behind that O-Line. He was also able to get around a lot of the sacks that Carr usually takes. He moved the ball and he found the end zone.

Carr should have played well enough this season that he would have ended the "Carr or the O-Line" controversy. The bottom line is that he hasn't.

Hulk75
01-02-2007, 02:11 PM
so if they plugged Peyton Manning in at QB he would have David Carr-like numbers?

no doubt the lack of talent around him affects his numbers, but it doesnt affect his decisions or judgement. bottom line is that he has not demonstrated he can play QB effectively...even when he has time to throw. being a QB is about processing a LOT of information in a hurry, making a good decision and then physically following thru on it.

But that is the fans perspective on things

And if you plugged a sorry QB into a team like the Chargers he would do good? Well lets see..............

Well, Ken Dorsey had every #1 pick in the world in the 2002 and his record was what 40 something and 2 as a starter, dont tell me guys around you dont help you win ball games. And now he is a 3rd string back up.

AND yes Peyton would do no better these last couple of years, I am sure your crystal ball says different.

Do you think it helps when he tries to step up in the pockett he has Steve and Washington in his face, thats about right, do you know how many times that happens in a game were Carr cant set his feet and step up, A lot.

U. Good QBs Pockets look like this...........Carrs looks like this V.

Hulk75
01-02-2007, 02:17 PM
One good QB can make the other "sucky" 52 guys better. Ask any Titans fan.

That "sucky" O-Line that Carr fans point to wasn't so much of a problem for Sage Rosenfels when he came in. At least Sage could complete passes for more than 4 yards behind that O-Line. He was also able to get around a lot of the sacks that Carr usually takes. He moved the ball and he found the end zone.

Carr should have played well enough this season that he would have ended the "Carr or the O-Line" controversy. The bottom line is that he hasn't.

Yea that Soft Zone did not help out either but I am sure you knew that.

Nice Try............
Vince Youngs OLine his not bad 25 sacks given up...........Half of what Carr has..............and they were 5th in rushing, Travis Henry 4.5 yards a carry, 1200+s yards not bad for a BAD OLINE. Go Longhorns a guess.

ATX
01-02-2007, 02:19 PM
But that is the fans perspective on things

And if you plugged a sorry QB into a team like the Chargers he would do good? Well lets see..............

Well, Ken Dorsey had every #1 pick in the world in the 2002 and his record was what 40 something and 2 as a starter, dont tell me guys around you dont help you win ball games. And now he is a 3rd string back up.

AND yes Peyton would do no better these last couple of years, I am sure your crystal ball says different.

Do you think it helps when he tries to step up in the pockett he has Steve and Washington in his face, thats about right, do you know how many times that happens in a game were Carr cant set his feet and step up, A lot.

U. Good QBs Pockets look like this...........Carrs looks like this V.

It's not a fan's perspective, it's fact. Your brother isn't what we thought he would be coming out of Fresno State.....it happens alot in the NFL. I still see him making rookie Mistakes now 5 years in.

Trenches
01-02-2007, 02:19 PM
But that is the fans perspective on things

And if you plugged a sorry QB into a team like the Chargers he would do good? Well lets see..............

Well, Ken Dorsey had every #1 pick in the world in the 2002 and his record was what 40 something and 2 as a starter, dont tell me guys around you dont help you win ball games. And now he is a 3rd string back up.

AND yes Peyton would do no better these last couple of years, I am sure your crystal ball says different.

Do you think it helps when he tries to step up in the pockett he has Steve and Washington in his face, thats about right, do you know how many times that happens in a game were Carr cant set his feet and step up, A lot.

U. Good QBs Pockets look like this...........Carrs looks like this V.


Ken Dorsey? what? are you comparing his record in college to what he did in the pros? he's a 3rd stringer now because thats what he deserves to be. he didnt have the tools to be great. David Carr is the same story. IF he was good then he would make more from what he has, not less. IMO, he has become a worse QB over time.

And Manning couldnt do better than Carr? Laughable! Sure, he would get sacked, but at least when he did have time to make a throw, you know that it would be accurate and over 10 yards.

Hulk75
01-02-2007, 02:20 PM
It's not a fan's perspective, it's fact. Your brother isn't what we thought he would be coming out of Fresno State.....it happens alot in the NFL. I still see him making rookie Mistakes now 5 years in.

Not what hear, but hey your a better source.

Vinny
01-02-2007, 02:21 PM
Yea that Soft Zone did not help out either but I am sure you knew that.

Nice Try............
Vince Youngs OLine his not bad 25 sacks given up...........Half of what Carr has..............and they were 5th in rushing, Travis Henry 4.5 yards a carry, 1200+s yards not bad for a BAD OLINE. Go Longhorns a guess.Young works the pocket better than Carr does (that is obvious to the rest of us).......Also it was Tulip that pointed out that in the Titans' first 3 games (the pre-VY era), they averaged 65 rushing yards per game. In the 12 games VY has started, the Titans have averaged more than 150 rushing yards per game. The rushing game opened up when they had to concern themselves with Young holding the ball.

swtbound07
01-02-2007, 02:23 PM
Yea that Soft Zone did not help out either but I am sure you knew that.

Nice Try............
Vince Youngs OLine his not bad 25 sacks given up...........Half of what Carr has..............and they were 5th in rushing, Travis Henry 4.5 yards a carry, 1200+s yards not bad for a BAD OLINE. Go Longhorns a guess.

How many of those 41 times that Carr was sacked did he sack himself? He didn't release the ball properly, he pulled it down and held it too long, or he curled into the fetal position. I've got no dogs in this fight, as I've already been told Carr will be back. I don't like it, but its inevitable.

Tulip
01-02-2007, 02:26 PM
Yea that Soft Zone did not help out either but I am sure you knew that.

Nice Try............
Vince Youngs OLine his not bad 25 sacks given up...........Half of what Carr has..............and they were 5th in rushing, Travis Henry 4.5 yards a carry, 1200+s yards not bad for a BAD OLINE. Go Longhorns a guess.

Sacks involve the o-line and the qb. Watch some Titans games and see how many sacks that VY evades. And Kubiak blamed half of last year's sacks on David. How many this year were David's fault? Zero?

So now we're back to "go Longhorns?". If Vince is offensive rookie of the year, will that be because all of the AP voters are Longhorn alumni?

CowboysTexansFan
01-02-2007, 02:28 PM
But that is the fans perspective on things

AND yes Peyton would do no better these last couple of years, I am sure your crystal ball says different.

Do you think it helps when he tries to step up in the pockett he has Steve and Washington in his face, thats about right, do you know how many times that happens in a game were Carr cant set his feet and step up, A lot.

U. Good QBs Pockets look like this...........Carrs looks like this V.

Peyton would do no better than David in Houston??? I don't think you'd find any support for that statement among NFL circles.

Just out of curiosity, whose fault was it when David was flagged twice for throwing forward passes beyond the line of scrimmage in one game?

I follow the Cowboys very closely, and its line isn't much better than ours, if at all. Romo frequently is under pressure, but he seems to have a knack for avoiding it much better than David does. I don't at all argue the point that a QB depends on his teammates to be able to do his job, but at the same time, Dallas's line definitely started to look better once Romo replaced Bledsoe as the QB, and Romo hasn't even played a full season in the NFL yet.

I think it goes both ways, and David has to take some of the responsibility for the offense's poor performance. I don't think it's unfair to expect that from him as a 5 year veteran who is extremely well paid. He is never going to have 10 Pro Bowlers playing with him on offense.

Trenches
01-02-2007, 02:33 PM
How many of those 41 times that Carr was sacked did he sack himself? He didn't release the ball properly, he pulled it down and held it too long, or he curled into the fetal position. I've got no dogs in this fight, as I've already been told Carr will be back. I don't like it, but its inevitable.


If that is true then the Texans will watch their fans walk away in droves. At this point its as much a PR move as it is a football move.

hollywood_texan
01-02-2007, 02:35 PM
If that is true then the Texans will watch their fans walk away in droves. At this point its as much a PR move as it is a football move.

PR moves, what last year's first draft pick about?

Point is, the Texans don't care about PR. That is only thing clear coming from the Texans organization.

Mr. White
01-02-2007, 02:39 PM
Yea that Soft Zone did not help out either but I am sure you knew that.



I knew about the soft zone. Was JAX also playing a soft zone when Sage was moving the ball on them too?

MrMeToo
01-02-2007, 02:41 PM
But that is the fans perspective on things

And if you plugged a sorry QB into a team like the Chargers he would do good? Well lets see..............

Well, Ken Dorsey had every #1 pick in the world in the 2002 and his record was what 40 something and 2 as a starter, dont tell me guys around you dont help you win ball games. And now he is a 3rd string back up.

AND yes Peyton would do no better these last couple of years, I am sure your crystal ball says different.

Do you think it helps when he tries to step up in the pockett he has Steve and Washington in his face, thats about right, do you know how many times that happens in a game were Carr cant set his feet and step up, A lot.

U. Good QBs Pockets look like this...........Carrs looks like this V.

Blame everyone but Carr.Hopefully when Carr leaves so will U

HoustonFrog
01-02-2007, 02:47 PM
It's not a fan's perspective, it's fact. Your brother isn't what we thought he would be coming out of Fresno State.....it happens alot in the NFL. I still see him making rookie Mistakes now 5 years in.

Exactly. It isn't like we are seeing improvement from him. The coaches have to scale down the playbook because he can't handle it, they reined in his throws and after 5 years he still can't throw the ball away or stop eye raping his receivers before throwing to them.

HoustonFrog
01-02-2007, 02:49 PM
Young works the pocket better than Carr does (that is obvious to the rest of us).......Also it was Tulip that pointed out that in the Titans' first 3 games (the pre-VY era), they averaged 65 rushing yards per game. In the 12 games VY has started, the Titans have averaged more than 150 rushing yards per game. The rushing game opened up when they had to concern themselves with Young holding the ball.

Thanks for beating me to it. Has anyone heard of a QB making others better. We have made it where we have to hide our QB to stop him from losing it.

CowboysTexansFan
01-02-2007, 03:29 PM
Not what hear, but hey your a better source.

How recently did you hear this? Last week Pro Football Weekly reported that a source close to the Texans said David's chances of returning to the team next year were no better than 50/50...

http://profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+South/Houston/WWHI/default.htm

SESupergenius
01-02-2007, 04:21 PM
Elway also won 12 playoff games and played in 5 Super Bowls while the incredible Denver running game could only win one playoff game since he left with zero Super Bowl appearances since he has been gone. I'd say Elway was the difference maker.

Davis didn't do anything in post season after Elway left because he was plagued with injuries and saw action infrequently. In 1999, TD tore his anterior and medial collateral ligaments. In 2000 and 2001, he had numerous foot and leg injuries not to mention more knee problems. He retired during the 2002 preseason. So really you could say he couldn't do anything since Elway left, but realisiticly he couldn't do anything WITH ANY QB since he got injured so much and was forced to retire.

What is boils down to is that Elway doesn't win without TD or that defense, which was ranked in the top 10 during those Super Bowl runs. Most people overlook that fact when overglorifying Elway. Almost all Super Bowl teams have 3 facets of the game that are dominating, QB, RB & line, and defense. Patriots have it. Steelers had it last year. Packers had it. Even the greatest show on turf had it in their Super Bowl run.

Texans don't have it. Even if you replace Carr, you still don't have it because you are missing the other 2.

Tulip
01-02-2007, 04:30 PM
Davis didn't do anything in post season after Elway left because he was plagued with injuries and saw action infrequently. In 1999, TD tore his anterior and medial collateral ligaments. In 2000 and 2001, he had numerous foot and leg injuries not to mention more knee problems. He retired during the 2002 preseason. So really you could say he couldn't do anything since Elway left, but realisiticly he couldn't do anything since he got injured so much and was forced to retire.


I don't think that was a comment only on Terrell Davis - it was on the Denver's running game as a package. Elway was indeed the difference maker on that team.

Second Honeymoon
01-02-2007, 04:45 PM
Thanks for beating me to it. Has anyone heard of a QB making others better. We have made it where we have to hide our QB to stop him from losing it.

no doubt about it

DatTexBoy
01-02-2007, 05:05 PM
I see your point that carr didn't win all of those 6 games. But, would you then be willing to say that Vince Young did not win all of his games either (especially since his kicker hit two incredible field goals). I agree that David did not win all of them, but how many people would say that VY did not win all of his?

I think that VY hasn't had enough track record to compare to Carr because Carr has had more time to develop even though I don't see if you call being sacked upteent hundreds of times developing. I think Carr's honeymoon ran out last year and this year he didn't change any minds just increased his dimise. Hopefully the QB can succeed because he won't have the years of getting killed in the back of his mind when in the pocket...I really think the o-line was decent this year...not good but decent. I saw some clips of John Elway and I don't remember anybody on that o-line that was all ELWAY