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thunderkyss
12-28-2006, 10:59 AM
....... Even David's staunchest supporters must admit that David needs to be fixed. A big reason Gary Kubiak is in Houston, is the success he's had with "fixing" QBs.

This thread, is for guys who want to talk football. If the extent of your opinion is David Carr sucks..... or that David can be great.... try to refrain from posting here.

Instead, what I would like, is for everyone to list the three aspects of David's game they feel he needs to work on......... or if you're a homer, list the three things that puts him in the class of the elites....

I'm a hater, so I'll list the three things he needs to get better at....... the most.

I think Kubiak has done a great job keeping David's eyes downfield(albeit on one reciever) & identifying the problem with his feet(not the happy feet thing)..... but there is more to do.


1) Reading the defense.

--When he comes to the LOS, he should be able to see what the defense is doing, and note any obvious mismatches. Or at the very least, he should understand that certain players lined up in pass protection against the sideline is an advantage, and motioning the TE(the player being covered by the DE converted to LB) to the right tackle is a bad move when the play is a run designed to go off the right tackle.

--Owen, AJ, Moulds lined up in the slot against smaller DBs is an advantage for us.

--AJ or Moulds covered by a LB in the slot is an advantage for us.... these should be the #1 read, regardless what the play called for.

2) Ball placement..... we've finally got a real threat at the #2 WR spot, and a threat at recieving tightend that should keep Safeties Honest. We are getting AJ & Moulds on one on one coverage often, and not putting the ball where it needs to be.

3) short termed memory........ when things go bad for David, he tends to get in a funk. After a sack, 9 times out of 10, the next play is going to be a run play, so David can gather himself. After an INT..... he is reluctant to go to that reciever again, much less down field again.

Honoring Earl 34
12-28-2006, 11:13 AM
On the radio ... they were saying David is not allowed to audible because they want him to learn how to go through his progresions . That is a loud statement there .

Malloy
12-28-2006, 11:31 AM
Only one point really. I believe one of the faults of Carr is that he lacks the cool. Once pressured he screws up his footing, his reads and seems to lose any vision he might have. Once he's pressured (sometimes real, sometimes imagined) he does stupid things, and most of all, he stops being a leader on the field.

It's a mentality thing, and if it's fixable, Kubiak is the guy who can do it.
Carr's looked better this year, but still, when 'something' goes wrong, he seems to revert back to confused and intimidated David, making stupid decisions.

Teach Carr to keep his cool and never lose his head, and he'll be an above average QB, failure to fix it... well, we've seen that already, and it's not pretty. :)

HOU-TEX
12-28-2006, 11:38 AM
He's improved by not running out of bounds behind the LOS anymore and getting rid of the ball. Other than that, he hasn't been much different from past seasons. IMO, he's a workout warrior. He apparently does great in practice, but can't seem to achieve the same on gameday.:twocents:

Keyser Soze
12-28-2006, 11:41 AM
I think he telegraphs the plays. He doesn't "look off" the safety very well. JMO

He waits too long for the open receiver. We rarely ever see timing plays, yet we have AJ and Eric Moulds out there.

He is not a whiner, I will hand him that. IF he's here next year, I think we're entirely in the right to expect dramatic improvement in his play.

Texan_Bill
12-28-2006, 11:46 AM
I feel like Kubiak could have been the right guy to fix DC's problems.
...........BUT..............
I think after 4 (previous) years of being both pummelled by other team's defenses and being coddled by Capers, Palmer and Pendry it may be too late for Kubiak to correct the problems (at least here in Houston). If DC gets a fresh start with another team and some really good coaching he may be a tad over average.

texan767
12-28-2006, 11:55 AM
How about hypnosis to forget all those sacks?
In all seriousness, what happened to the DC that was calling the plays in the first half of the AZ game last year?

HOU-TEX
12-28-2006, 11:58 AM
How about hypnosis to forget all those sacks?
In all seriousness, what happened to the DC that was calling the plays in the first half of the AZ game last year?

You can probably find bits and pieces of him(mentally) scattered across our Nations NFL football fields.:)

jdm12
12-28-2006, 12:01 PM
I think Kubiak has done a great job keeping David's eyes downfield

Has this really been fixed? I got my DVR late in the season so I was not able to go back a review the games early in the season. However, the recent ones that I have seen he still stares them down. During training camp, I heard an interview with DC on 610. He said Kubes was having him work on keeping his eyes fixed on the goal post. Then using more eye movement or peripheral vision to view the field. This is something that was not even taught by the Dom Crew. Maybe I was just hoping for more of a noticable difference. I understand that staring a receiver down in a three step drop is inevitible. But I still see it in his 5 step drops. In seven step drops he just has to look for a place to run when his back foot plants.

My number one complaint about David is him not being able to anticipate when a receiver is going to be open. How many time have you seen the ball get to the receiver right as he make his cut. David usually gets rid of the ball after the receiver has finished his route and has already squared his number to him. This gives the defender time to break back on the play and either bat the ball down or intercept it.

The only time David throws the ball to a spot is on the GO routes to AJ or the quick slants. Even some of those throws have been behind the receiver and nearly picked off. This has to do with more of you placement problem.

2. Pocket Presense. I know David has be knocked silly for the last five years. However, he never just slides to avoid the rush. He either gets sacked or runs for dear life. I know the OLine has a lot to to with this. But if I were Kubes I would make DC watch pocket film on Tom Brady. I think he is the best at doing this. The only memorable slide step that come to mind was a sidleine route to AJ I believe it was against the Giants. I believe the presure was coming from the right side. He stepped up and slid slightly to his right into a empty spot and got something on the pass to AJ.

Other than the three problems you listed, those would be on my to fix list if I was Kubes.

J

El Tejano
12-28-2006, 12:09 PM
Okay where are the things that put him in the class of the elites?

If this is what this thread was created for...Point Well Taken!!!!

Double Barrel
12-28-2006, 12:28 PM
250 sacks in his first five seasons have conditioned Carr to make decisions that are often detrimental to being a good QB. I honestly don't know if this kind of conditioning can truly be reversed 100%. The simple fact remains that he has to be one of the most sacked QBs in any first five year period, and only time will tell if Kubiak can turn him into a consistent QB.

The game against the Colts is a showcase example of the kind of offense we'll have with Carr as our QB. Mistake-free game, putting the ball with our running game at twice the amount we passed it. This is what we can look like down the road, winning with ball control offense and a stout defense (to be continued being built).

Carr has reduced the number of self-induced sacks this year, which is a direct result of Kubiak's guidance. He still seems shaky on reading defenses, and I think his drop back - 5 or 7 step - still needs a lot more work. He puts himself so far back that stepping up into the pocket becomes much tougher, which is usually a bread and butter move for most NFL QBs. His pocket presence is getting a little better, but this goes back to the conditioning I mentioned above, and might not vastly improve over time.

The two things that bother me the most at games is Carr doesn't seem to make all his progressions, and he under throws receivers. So many times you see our WRs have to turn to catch balls thrown behind them, and it would be nice to see him consistently lead receivers with the ball put in front so they don't have to break their stride to catch it. This is where a lot of big plays get left on the field, IMO. And we tend to see a lot of open receivers that never get looked at, due to lack of time or lack of vision.

thunderkyss
12-28-2006, 12:42 PM
Has this really been fixed? I got my DVR late in the season so I was not able to go back a review the games early in the season. However, the recent ones that I have seen he still stares them down. During training camp, I heard an interview with DC on 610. He said Kubes was having him work on keeping his eyes fixed on the goal post. Then using more eye movement or peripheral vision to view the field. This is something that was not even taught by the Dom Crew. Maybe I was just hoping for more of a noticable difference. I understand that staring a receiver down in a three step drop is inevitible. But I still see it in his 5 step drops. In seven step drops he just has to look for a place to run when his back foot plants.

J

When I say Kubes has done a great job keeping his eyes downfield, I mean he isn't seeing the rush..... he's looking downfield.

Now on the three step drops..... I was watching a another QB, and they showed how he would take a three step drop. With his first step, his head was turned, looking to his left.. when the second step hit, his head was pointed straight down field, third step hit, he was looking to the right.

When he started back up, he planted his front foot in the direction the ball was going, and there it went.

Okay where are the things that put him in the class of the elites?

If this is what this thread was created for...Point Well Taken!!!!

No that is not why I started this thread.... but I see your point. I figured the homers would come in and mention the things he does well.....

There's gotta be something for so many fans to be soooo in love with him.

tsip
12-28-2006, 12:49 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again--JMO, but Kubiak should never have taken the play of the team down to Carr's level, making the entire team suffer because 1 individual doesn't get 'it'.

...talk about abandoning the 'team' concept! Kubiak and his coaches should have laid out an offensive game plan that gave us the best chance to beat that team that week, regardless of who was playing QB. And, just like with any other position on the team, if that QB can not get the job done--try someone else.

How did Kubiak ever expect Carr to improve when it is obvious that Carr-for whatever reason-could not elevate his play. After 4 yrs in the league, the burden of executing the plays was on Carr!!

For this team to still be wondering if---in his 5th year---Carr can play at an acceptable level is a 'travesty'---an absolute embarrassment to the entire team and the 'fan base.'

JMO, but this has been an 'experiment' gone bad and needs to be ended--wanting Carr to become 'something' he can not become should be over and hopefully-never again- does this team take the play of our 'pro' team to the level of 'elementary' school because one player ---one player---does not get it........:brickwall :lightbulb: :brickwall :lightbulb:

kenneth24
12-28-2006, 01:07 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again--JMO, but Kubiak should never have taken the play of the team down to Carr's level, making the entire team suffer because 1 individual doesn't get 'it'.

...talk about abandoning the 'team' concept! Kubiak and his coaches should have laid out an offensive game plan that gave us the best chance to beat that team that week, regardless of who was playing QB. And, just like with any other position on the team, if that QB can not get the job done--try someone else.

How did Kubiak ever expect Carr to improve when it is obvious that Carr-for whatever reason-could not elevate his play. After 4 yrs in the league, the burden of executing the plays was on Carr!!

For this team to still be wondering if---in his 5th year---Carr can play at an acceptable level is a 'travesty'---an absolute embarrassment to the entire team and the 'fan base.'

JMO, but this has been an 'experiment' gone bad and needs to be ended--wanting Carr to become 'something' he can not become should be over and hopefully-never again- does this team take the play of our 'pro' team to the level of 'elementary' school because one player ---one player---does not get it........:brickwall :lightbulb: :brickwall :lightbulb:

I don't think this is what TKyss is looking for in this thread...
I think Carr needs to work on his progressions also and develop more confidence on throwing the timing routes. Part of his problem IMO he throws a .5 second too late when the receiver comes out of his break and that give the db time to close the gap on the receiver. I do however believe this has improved a little bit in the last couple of games with throws to Walters and Johnson on some slants, Anderson over the middle, and the in route by AJ last week and I would look for more plays such as those. Earlier in the season in the TD pass to Moulds where Moulds came across the field and the ball was slightly behind him (luckily it was too!) because it had to be, showed more of Carr being late on his passes and reads.
Carr is great runner and playfaker at the QB position and the Texans can take more advantage of that as the running game improves also. Carr is also a tough SOB and a does have a strong arm despite what some posters think and has a good touch on the short passes. Not being hypocritical in the same post but he does have good touch when he has confidence in time to throw and makes the read correctly.

Honoring Earl 34
12-28-2006, 01:08 PM
Maybe his sponsor needs indisputable evidence .

tsip
12-28-2006, 01:33 PM
I don't think this is what TKyss is looking for in this thread...
I think Carr needs to work on his progressions also and develop more confidence on throwing the timing routes. Part of his problem IMO he throws a .5 second too late when the receiver comes out of his break and that give the db time to close the gap on the receiver. I do however believe this has improved a little bit in the last couple of games with throws to Walters and Johnson on some slants, Anderson over the middle, and the in route by AJ last week and I would look for more plays such as those. Earlier in the season in the TD pass to Moulds where Moulds came across the field and the ball was slightly behind him (luckily it was too!) because it had to be, showed more of Carr being late on his passes and reads.
Carr is great runner and playfaker at the QB position and the Texans can take more advantage of that as the running game improves also. Carr is also a tough SOB and a does have a strong arm despite what some posters think and has a good touch on the short passes. Not being hypocritical in the same post but he does have good touch when he has confidence in time to throw and makes the read correctly.


...sorry, my point is that I think everything has already been tried in Carr's 5 yrs...time to move on...but I'll give you 3 things that need to be worked on--

1) execute the game plan
2) play within a team concept
3) make things happen

ATX
12-28-2006, 01:44 PM
DC's 3 biggest problems that need improvement:

1. Still holds the ball very low when he drops back, making his throws slower and contributes to alot of his fumbles. He needs to bring that ball up higher when he drops back.

2. Still doesn't seem to have the vision he should have as a QB. Seems like he just can't see the field as well as alot of other QBs and it's not because of his size. He has good size for a QB. I don't know, maybe a new helmet would help a little. One with a smaller facemask instead of the one he has now.

3. Consistency!!! I want to see more of this in every aspect of his game. I know he's going to throw interceptions and fumble, but he needs to keep them to a minimum. He needs to be consistent with his footwork.

Nighthawk
12-28-2006, 01:50 PM
If at this point in his career you are talking about what you have to "fix" in David Carr you clearly are not thinking straight. It's not just the wasted five years, it's the long haul ahead where you fix something this year and something next year and something the year after that.

Some guys come into the league and just "get it" and start producing immediately (you know who); other guys take a couple of years to get there. But almost NOBODY takes five years before producing significantly.

The fact of the matter is that this franchise made a terrible terrible blunder at the beginning and CANNOT ADMIT IT, and that's what's really holding the franchise back. It's awful to watch, but no other explanation fits the facts.

To all those "Give him one more year" people, folks who want to make excuses for him endlessly, please, stop and reflect on half a decade of David Carr at QB.

kenneth24
12-28-2006, 01:52 PM
no problem:shades:
I'm just tired of all the constant either Carr bashing or People who do think Carr is perfect and its everybody else's fault and I think thats why Tkyss started this thread and worded it the way he did. :shots:
Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth TKyss.:respect:

DenverBorn
12-28-2006, 02:21 PM
1. When he was drafted, there were concerns about his sidearm delivery and release point. I think those were, and continue to be, legitimate concerns. I don't have the stats but deflected passes seem to be a big issue with him

2. He doesn't have any sense as to how to stay in the pocket, and step up to give himself more time. Maybe this isnt his fault. It leads to having to roll him out (along with 1 above) which significantly narrows his range of opportunities to find players open

3. I really admire his toughness in taking sacks but I don't think the team has ever looked to him as a leader. You would think the team would have more respect for him, given how many times he's been pounded and then gets up. And unlike a QB up in Indianapolis, he doesn't publicly call out his offensive line. I'm guessing but when they look at his eyes in the huddle, they don't see what they want to see in terms of having a confident leader to take them down the field

4. I've said this before but I think playing for an expansion team, where the objective was just to be competitive, created a bad mindset for DC, one that I do not believe has changed. And frankly, he's never really had to compete for his job. I was very troubled by his comments this week that he's been out there "having fun", even when the team is getting hammered. That doesn't sound like someone that has a burning desire to win. 34-6 or 40-7 should NOT be fun.


How he is may not all be his fault, but he is what he is. If we keep him, at a minimum he should have to compete for the job, whether with Rosenfels, or someone else. Frankly I think he and the team will be better off if he moves on. Then he can have a good game for someone like Chicago, and we'll certainly hear about it here-

t_flare
12-28-2006, 02:24 PM
i see that David's confidence can be shatter very fast... i mean when he gets sack you can almost bet that he will throw the next pass too early... Yea you can understand why but if he stays in Houston he needs to know that his guys can protect him.

old football fan
12-28-2006, 02:37 PM
I just don't see Carr playing relaxed. By this I mean when he goes back in the pocket he tenses up and this may be from all the sacks he's taken the last 5 years. This last game he did seem more relaxed and did a decent job.

Mr teX
12-28-2006, 02:41 PM
The only thing that's going to "fix" DC is giving him enough time on a consistent basis during the season in the pocket on 5-7 step drops to "actually" be able to go through his progressions. Nothing More. It starts with the line & Game plan.

If we are going to commit to running the ball as our Roots are in the Denver system, then that will help expedite (sp?) the process, but from here on out he will be shaken somewhat easily just b/c of all the punishment he's taken & there's no "fixing" that.

threetoedpete
12-28-2006, 03:18 PM
You guys sure do have tunnel vision. It ain't DC. Never has been DC. I don't know how many ways I can post it. Untill you start spending draft capitol on the o-line, I don't care who the QB is...we'll be dogs chasing our tails. And TK, I'd apreciate it if you wouldn't start your threads putting your words into my mouth.

thunderkyss
12-28-2006, 03:22 PM
The only thing that's going to "fix" DC is giving him enough time on a consistent basis during the season in the pocket on 5-7 step drops to "actually" be able to go through his progressions. Nothing More. It starts with the line & Game plan.



You guys sure do have tunnel vision. It ain't DC. Never has been DC. I don't know how many ways I can post it. Untill you start spending draft capitol on the o-line, I don't care who the QB is...we'll be dogs chasing our tails. And TK, I'd apreciate it if you wouldn't start your threads putting your words into my mouth.

So....... are we saying David has no other problems other than the OLine, or that fixing the OL will automatically fix David's other problems??

Yokohama Texan
12-28-2006, 03:26 PM
Leadership and reading the defense. These two things have been hurting him and eventually might cost him his job.

eriadoc
12-28-2006, 03:28 PM
There are a lot of good points in this thread. Carr definitely has some issues that have been beaten into him, as well as some weaknesses he's always had. One thing that has never been done on this team, that other teams do, is playing to his strengths. This happens with other players on the team as well. I can honestly go through every QB in the league and point out weaknesses in their abilities. Most teams scheme to mitigate the QB's weakness and maximize his strengths. This team really hasn't done that too often. Carr was a downfield thrower in college and tended to hold the ball a bit too long. Since he's been in the NFL, he's been conditioned to get rid of the ball quickly and throw short passes. This is due to a variety of factors, but the point is, the team bought a cannon and schemed for a pea-shooter. Early in Carr's career, you saw his ability to throw down the field and you saw his strong arm. You still see it occasionally, but for the most part, he's been trained to make quick decisions and get rid of the ball quickly. If the offensive line could hold up in pass protection long enough to take 5-step drops constantly and 7-step drops regularly, then some of Carr's weaknesses would not be so apparent.

Again, Carr has problems with his game, and at this point, he probably has more than when he came into the NFL. He may not be salvageable. But it's the team around him that has contributed greatly to those problems and we'll get to see the cycle repeat itself time and again unless the offensive line is meaningfully addressed. This past draft was step one in doing so, but one draft does not make a team.

threetoedpete
12-28-2006, 03:30 PM
What I'm saying...it'd be a very nice change of pace if they'd at least keep trying. We got a fine RT prospect in Eric. The jury has to be still out on Spencer. So the big question is...if an organazation has only made the effort to shore up the o-line with a fifty, a 66 and a 65 pick....is that a commitment to the QB ? I mean the jets just went with two first rounders to shore up theirs last year . So where the heck is our commitment TK ? Siting on the tolliet with Ryan Young, Tony Boselli, Todd Wade.....Seth Wand ?
Like I posted...tunnel vison.

eriadoc
12-28-2006, 03:31 PM
Leadership and reading the defense. These two things have been hurting him and eventually might cost him his job.

I don't buy this for an instant. Warren Moon was not a leader of the Oilers and he did just fine. There are other instances of QBs doing well and even winning Super Bowls without being a visible leader. Carr has command of the huddle and there are numerous instances of teammates coming out in support of him when his back has been against the wall. If his play improves, he'll be fine. Lead by example, not words.

tsip
12-28-2006, 05:32 PM
You guys sure do have tunnel vision. It ain't DC. Never has been DC. I don't know how many ways I can post it. Untill you start spending draft capitol on the o-line, I don't care who the QB is...we'll be dogs chasing our tails. And TK, I'd apreciate it if you wouldn't start your threads putting your words into my mouth.

JMO, but I think a 'wake-up' call is just around the corner for you....and I love the way you start this post by putting 'words/thoughts' in other poster's mouths....gezzzzzzzzzz

Honoring Earl 34
12-28-2006, 05:36 PM
You guys sure do have tunnel vision. It ain't DC. Never has been DC. I don't know how many ways I can post it. Untill you start spending draft capitol on the o-line, I don't care who the QB is...we'll be dogs chasing our tails. And TK, I'd apreciate it if you wouldn't start your threads putting your words into my mouth.

What you are saying is that in a close to perfect situation Carr would be good ... him and a 1000 others .

edo783
12-28-2006, 06:34 PM
If Carr has say 2 problems, then what you are seeing is an O-line that then magnifies those problems by say a factor of 10 and you wind up looking at what seems to be 20 problems by the QB, but they are in fact caused by poor protection. Every QB has problems/issues with their game. Not even Payton is perfect. Put any QB behihnd a VERY poor line ( ours is docummented as that and in fact considered to be the worst line in NFL history in many quarters) and any issues he has will be magnified and probably wind up causing new ones.

tsip
12-28-2006, 07:40 PM
If Carr has say 2 problems, then what you are seeing is an O-line that then magnifies those problems by say a factor of 10 and you wind up looking at what seems to be 20 problems by the QB, but they are in fact caused by poor protection. Every QB has problems/issues with their game. Not even Payton is perfect. Put any QB behihnd a VERY poor line ( ours is docummented as that and in fact considered to be the worst line in NFL history in many quarters) and any issues he has will be magnified and probably wind up causing new ones.

...bottom line, our OL had almost 1/3 fewer sacks this year than last but our QB has thrown 3 less TD's so far

...we added a #2 and #3 receiver (one an all-pro)

...we added TE's

...we added FB's

...we added 2 first day OL

...we added an all-pro center

Posters like you act like 'nothing' has been done to help Carr--fact, we've probably added more help for David than any QB in the league...

...then, when you add in 'all' the personal attention/coaching David got this year alone...plus

...our offense has been 'dumb down' to virtually a high school level with 'zero' vertical passing game and 'zero' decision making by Carr and your answer--along with many others-- is that the team has not done 'enough' for David?

...here's the 'real deal'...enough will never be enough for Carr to be an effective NFL QB


...oh,yeah, almost every defensive stat improved from '05 to '06 and we gave up less than 1 more sack per game than the play-off teams

edo783
12-28-2006, 08:36 PM
...bottom line, our OL had almost 1/3 fewer sacks this year than last but our QB has thrown 3 less TD's so far

Because we are throwing the ball very quickly, because the line can't protect for longer than 2 sec.

...we added a #2 and #3 receiver (one an all-pro)

True, but if you don't have time to get off the first read, that makes it just a tad hard to get to #2 and 3 doesn't it.

...we added TE's

Had them before, just have better ones and they have been used.

...we added FB's

See above

...we added 2 first day OL

One gone on IR game 2 and the other has just gotten a start 2 games ago. Lots of help there. Of course the fact that both starting tackles and center are out of the O-line is irreleavent as to how they play.

...we added an all-pro center

Frankly, he didn't play real well and is out on IR.

Posters like you act like 'nothing' has been done to help Carr--fact, we've probably added more help for David than any QB in the league...

That is bull and you know it. If you can't see that the O-line is the root cause of the offensives issues, then you are just blinded by hate.

...then, when you add in 'all' the personal attention/coaching David got this year alone...plus

...our offense has been 'dumb down' to virtually a high school level with 'zero' vertical passing game and 'zero' decision making by Carr and your answer--along with many others-- is that the team has not done 'enough' for David?

Again, that's BS and I suspect that you know it. It is a short game because we can't protect and the HC has said so in print, but of course you know more than he does.

...here's the 'real deal'...enough will never be enough for Carr to be an effective NFL QB

The mad hater mantra.


...oh,yeah, almost every defensive stat improved from '05 to '06 and we gave up less than 1 more sack per game than the play-off teams

Again, that is due to the game plan/scheme of quick short passes to do just exactly what you are pointing out and then whinning about no downfield game. And again, I suspect you know that, but we didn't pick VY so you just whine at everything about Carr without even thinking about what might be the root cause. Carr is NOT the root of all things wrong with the Texans and it is the TSIPERs like you who want to punish Carr for the Texans not taking youre god who are the ones who can't see that. It's all about punishing Carr for the Texans not picking VY rather than actually addressing the underlying issues. Unlike the haters, those who recognise that there is an underlying issue and the O-line has been it for 5 years, also recognise that Carr isn't perfect, but he is one heck of a long way from the source of all the problems or even in the top 3 issues with the team.

Nighthawk
12-28-2006, 08:54 PM
...bottom line, our OL had almost 1/3 fewer sacks this year than last but our QB has thrown 3 less TD's so far

...we added a #2 and #3 receiver (one an all-pro)

...we added TE's

...we added FB's

...we added 2 first day OL

...we added an all-pro center

Posters like you act like 'nothing' has been done to help Carr--fact, we've probably added more help for David than any QB in the league...

...then, when you add in 'all' the personal attention/coaching David got this year alone...plus

...our offense has been 'dumb down' to virtually a high school level with 'zero' vertical passing game and 'zero' decision making by Carr and your answer--along with many others-- is that the team has not done 'enough' for David?

...here's the 'real deal'...enough will never be enough for Carr to be an effective NFL QB


...oh,yeah, almost every defensive stat improved from '05 to '06 and we gave up less than 1 more sack per game than the play-off teams


Brilliant! Hey administrators! Make this message sticky at the top of the msg board! Make it required reading! Kudos to tsip.

Nighthawk
12-28-2006, 08:58 PM
Again, that is due to the game plan/scheme of quick short passes to do just exactly what you are pointing out and then whinning about no downfield game. And again, I suspect you know that, but we didn't pick VY so you just whine at everything about Carr without even thinking about what might be the root cause. Carr is NOT the root of all things wrong with the Texans and it is the TSIPERs like you who want to punish Carr for the Texans not taking youre god who are the ones who can't see that. It's all about punishing Carr for the Texans not picking VY rather than actually addressing the underlying issues. Unlike the haters, those who recognise that there is an underlying issue and the O-line has been it for 5 years, also recognise that Carr isn't perfect, but he is one heck of a long way from the source of all the problems or even in the top 3 issues with the team.


Sir, you are blinded by a strange man-love that is inexplicable to all rational beings.

Listen to this: NOBODY HATES CARR OR WANTS TO PUNISH CARR.

Many of us want to get him out of the way so he doesn't continue to block the progress of the team. Playing with him at QB is like trying to fight somebody with one arm tied behind your back.

Honoring Earl 34
12-28-2006, 08:59 PM
Again, that is due to the game plan/scheme of quick short passes to do just exactly what you are pointing out and then whinning about no downfield game. And again, I suspect you know that, but we didn't pick VY so you just whine at everything about Carr without even thinking about what might be the root cause. Carr is NOT the root of all things wrong with the Texans and it is the TSIPERs like you who want to punish Carr for the Texans not taking youre god who are the ones who can't see that. It's all about punishing Carr for the Texans not picking VY rather than actually addressing the underlying issues. Unlike the haters, those who recognise that there is an underlying issue and the O-line has been it for 5 years, also recognise that Carr isn't perfect, but he is one heck of a long way from the source of all the problems or even in the top 3 issues with the team.

I hear the gameplan is simple and Carr is not allowed to audible because the coach ( past coaches also ) are trying to make him go through his progressions . After 5 years this is where we're at ... step one . So when the defense is showing a different look he's not trusted enough to audible into a better formation or play ... that's your boy .

TexansFanatic
12-28-2006, 09:16 PM
Forgive me is this has been posted/asked before but....

What was the offensive scheme being used at Fresno State back in 2001 when Carr had a lot of success? If I had to guess I would say that they likely ran a run-and-shoot type of offense. Not the run-and-shoot per se, but an offense where they threw to set up the run and where there were a lot of receivers on the field on any given play.

It seems to me that these type of offenses, historically, have made a number of quarterbacks look better than they really were (e.g. Andre Ware, David Klingler, Kliff Kingsbury, etc.). Did Carr run one of these offenses? That would explain a lot....

edo783
12-28-2006, 09:40 PM
I hear the gameplan is simple and Carr is not allowed to audible because the coach ( past coaches also ) are trying to make him go through his progressions .

And you hear that where? Never came out of the coaches mouth. Probably just read it by some other O-line wanbe GM poster. This is the type of BS that just gets picked up and regurgitated by those with an agenda.


After 5 years this is where we're at ... step one . So when the defense is showing a different look he's not trusted enough to audible into a better formation or play ... that's your boy .

If you paid any attention, you would have heard/seen Kubes say that he wants Carr to run the play as called. It has nothing to do with Carr, as he has stated, it has to do with wanting the play run as called. Interesting thing, Carr has checked out of plays. Maybe you noted that Kubes was yelling at him a couple of weeks ago for doing that. Well guess what, Carr check into the exact play that the coaches had told him to do in the situation they were in, and Kubes publicly appologized for going off on him, because he did exactly what he was supposed to do. See this is some more of the same slanted drival that just keeps getting propagated by a group of posters who have an agenda.

Kaiser Toro
12-28-2006, 09:46 PM
David is not the player we thought he was, he needs a lot of help. No O-Linemen we have brought knows how to pass block which I find very strange. We have given him three OC's and essentially three HC's on the staff in these five years yet we see the same mistakes and nothing new in his tool belt. We have All-Pro WR's and good TE's, one being known as one of the best blocking TE's in the game, Bruenner.

If he is back next year does anyone really think that you will see anything that we have not seen before from our QB and do you honestly expect him to show us something that he has learned?

Erratic Assassin
12-28-2006, 10:03 PM
My number one complaint about David is him not being able to anticipate when a receiver is going to be open. How many time have you seen the ball get to the receiver right as he make his cut.

Timing is everything. Peyton Manning lives by it and so did Joe Montana. The biggest advantage an offense has over the defense is that the offense knows what to expect. The defense is going to be half a second behind the offense because they are reacting.

Timing between a QB and his receivers is a pipe dream when you have horrible pass protection. Timing? What the hell is timing? His internal clock has been screwed by Casserly's refusal to address the line problems.

dantem
12-28-2006, 10:09 PM
Not to pick your post apart but....


1) Reading the defense. - I agree with this but if you cannot audible ?????

--AJ or Moulds covered by a LB in the slot is an advantage for us.... these should be the #1 read, regardless what the play called for. - I don't agree with this, Plays are designed, all the way down to the recievers routs. Every players timing is critical for the success of the play. If a screen is called the reciever should be doing his job (possibly pulling his man away from the screen and positioning himself to block for the RB), not wondering if Carr is going to hit him without notice. This is not sand lot football. :)

3) short termed memory........ when things go bad for David, he tends to get in a funk. After a sack, 9 times out of 10, the next play is going to be a run play, so David can gather himself. After an INT..... he is reluctant to go to that reciever again, much less down field again. Your assuming that Carr is calling the plays, from what weve been told all season, he's not.

dantem
12-28-2006, 10:12 PM
You guys sure do have tunnel vision. It ain't DC. Never has been DC. I don't know how many ways I can post it. Untill you start spending draft capitol on the o-line, I don't care who the QB is...we'll be dogs chasing our tails. And TK, I'd apreciate it if you wouldn't start your threads putting your words into my mouth.

I agree!

QB75
12-28-2006, 10:18 PM
....... Even David's staunchest supporters must admit that David needs to be fixed. A big reason Gary Kubiak is in Houston, is the success he's had with "fixing" QBs.

This thread, is for guys who want to talk football. If the extent of your opinion is David Carr sucks..... or that David can be great.... try to refrain from posting here.

Instead, what I would like, is for everyone to list the three aspects of David's game they feel he needs to work on......... or if you're a homer, list the three things that puts him in the class of the elites....

I'm a hater, so I'll list the three things he needs to get better at....... the most.

I think Kubiak has done a great job keeping David's eyes downfield(albeit on one reciever) & identifying the problem with his feet(not the happy feet thing)..... but there is more to do.


1) Reading the defense.

--When he comes to the LOS, he should be able to see what the defense is doing, and note any obvious mismatches. Or at the very least, he should understand that certain players lined up in pass protection against the sideline is an advantage, and motioning the TE(the player being covered by the DE converted to LB) to the right tackle is a bad move when the play is a run designed to go off the right tackle.

--Owen, AJ, Moulds lined up in the slot against smaller DBs is an advantage for us.

--AJ or Moulds covered by a LB in the slot is an advantage for us.... these should be the #1 read, regardless what the play called for.

2) Ball placement..... we've finally got a real threat at the #2 WR spot, and a threat at recieving tightend that should keep Safeties Honest. We are getting AJ & Moulds on one on one coverage often, and not putting the ball where it needs to be.

3) short termed memory........ when things go bad for David, he tends to get in a funk. After a sack, 9 times out of 10, the next play is going to be a run play, so David can gather himself. After an INT..... he is reluctant to go to that reciever again, much less down field again.

Poor and biased analysis.

TexansFanatic
12-28-2006, 10:29 PM
Poor and biased analysis.

Care to elaborate? What exactly makes the analysis poor? Your assessment means nothing unless you back it up with a solid argument....

Kaiser Toro
12-28-2006, 10:44 PM
Timing is everything. Peyton Manning lives by it and so did Joe Montana. The biggest advantage an offense has over the defense is that the offense knows what to expect. The defense is going to be half a second behind the offense because they are reacting.

Timing between a QB and his receivers is a pipe dream when you have horrible pass protection. Timing? What the hell is timing? His internal clock has been screwed by Casserly's refusal to address the line problems.

Good points. My concern with Carr is where is the production when he does have opportunity. I would assume that we can agree that there is protection at times.

Honoring Earl 34
12-28-2006, 10:57 PM
If you paid any attention, you would have heard/seen Kubes say that he wants Carr to run the play as called. It has nothing to do with Carr, as he has stated, it has to do with wanting the play run as called. Interesting thing, Carr has checked out of plays. Maybe you noted that Kubes was yelling at him a couple of weeks ago for doing that. Well guess what, Carr check into the exact play that the coaches had told him to do in the situation they were in, and Kubes publicly appologized for going off on him, because he did exactly what he was supposed to do. See this is some more of the same slanted drival that just keeps getting propagated by a group of posters who have an agenda.

Are you his brother to ? I know every NFL QB runs the play thats called no matter what ... right every NFL QB . Why does he want him to run the play thats called ... why is this why ... crawl ... walk ... jog ... run .

Who has an agenda ... I guess its not paranoia if their really after you right .

Wolfiegrrl
12-28-2006, 11:23 PM
One of y'all touched on a big issue before... David has been the product of poor game planning. Any of y'all ever play flinch with your brothers or sisters? No matter how hard you try, your body will naturally train itself to go into protection mode if you think you're going to get hurt. That's why the game is called Flinch. David has been trained to get slapped around. He flinches and he's working on that. David can be trained out of it with better game planning.

Kubiak is forcing a new scheme on the entire team, not just David. Look at the last several games. Kubes wants the oline to really work on run blocking. I believe this is a secondary reason for David not being allowed to audible out of a play and having pretty poor stats. So far, in the last couple of games the entire team has shown improvement. Kubiak is not going to deviate from his game plan. At least in that he is showing some consistancy that the team as a whole has never had.

I believe that we would be fools to give up on David right now. Kubiak has given him some confidence and stability back. And we saw from last off season that Kubiak loves to bring in the competition at every position. I have no doubt that Kubes will be after Plummer if for nothing else than to show David that the coach isn't afraid to use someone that can get the job done. I would hate to see the team be put in cap hell for releasing or trading Carr without addressing the oline whoas first.

But ultimately, those decisions aren't up to me or you. I'll be a Texans Fan until the day I die. Players come and go. It's the nature of the game. Go Texans!!!!:texflag:

tsip
12-28-2006, 11:58 PM
Again, that is due to the game plan/scheme of quick short passes to do just exactly what you are pointing out and then whinning about no downfield game. And again, I suspect you know that, but we didn't pick VY so you just whine at everything about Carr without even thinking about what might be the root cause. Carr is NOT the root of all things wrong with the Texans and it is the TSIPERs like you who want to punish Carr for the Texans not taking youre god who are the ones who can't see that. It's all about punishing Carr for the Texans not picking VY rather than actually addressing the underlying issues. Unlike the haters, those who recognise that there is an underlying issue and the O-line has been it for 5 years, also recognise that Carr isn't perfect, but he is one heck of a long way from the source of all the problems or even in the top 3 issues with the team.

...not taking VY!...Punish Carr!...at least warn me next time so I can wear my boots!!...time is running out on 'whiney/know it all/can't make enough excuses/lie/offer no facts/will just pretend Carr never existed when he's gone and we have an effective QB...ala, Carr who?'


...from the Chronicle

Little to show for
This season, when Carr could have done so much to help himself, and so many people inside and outside the organization were pulling for him, the wins did not come because he did more. They came because he did less.

He threw downfield less. The game plans were tightened and simplified, and not just because he could not get the job done. But nevertheless he could not make the big plays.

The defense improved, the offensive line had better moments and the running game found a go-to back.

Carr deserves one more happy day at Reliant Stadium, at least. He has earned that much.

But no matter what after Sunday, there should be no promises for the next dance.

Listen to John P. Lopez weekdays from noon-3 p.m. on 790 AM. john.lopez@chron.com

t_flare
12-29-2006, 12:19 AM
Well.. answer this.. if you replace the QB and not fix the O-Line how much better can you be next year?

No matter what, anyone (almost anyone) can agree the O-Line and Secondary are the top 2 needed to be fix. Agree?

#Ocho
12-29-2006, 12:45 AM
Forgive me is this has been posted/asked before but....

What was the offensive scheme being used at Fresno State back in 2001 when Carr had a lot of success? If I had to guess I would say that they likely ran a run-and-shoot type of offense. Not the run-and-shoot per se, but an offense where they threw to set up the run and where there were a lot of receivers on the field on any given play.

It seems to me that these type of offenses, historically, have made a number of quarterbacks look better than they really were (e.g. Andre Ware, David Klingler, Kliff Kingsbury, etc.). Did Carr run one of these offenses? That would explain a lot....

Fresno State ran and still runs a Pro Set offense that was 50/50 run and pass. They didn't run a Norm Chow/Jeff Tedford offense like when Trent Dilfer and Lorenzo Neal embarrassed USC back in the day. They run Pat Hill's stubborn run "smash mouth" football with an offensive line not known to run block very well against the Top 20 schools.

The Capers offense with Palmer basically took away everything that was DC's strength trying to run a simple offense that lacked imagination. Fresno State's offense to this day IS more complex than Houston's. Why? Because Dave wasn't getting sacked every other play.

You watch Cal beat the Aggies tonight? THAT was the offense Fresno State used to run as Tedford was the OC before Pat Hill came in with a watered-down Cleveland Browns/Baltimore Ravens running offense that Dave had to deal with.

Face it, Capers' staff was incompetent and taught Dave absolutely nothing for 4 years. I still can't believe Dom and staff were allowed to be that incompetent for so long.

You guys that hate Carr... I really don't blame you because you don't see the big picture. I say let Kubiak do what he was brought in to do and take it from there.

Does DC have problems? Sure he does. He keeps the ball low as stated earlier and can't possibly have any timing down with his receivers if he's on his back. Fresno State was almost all timing patterns and audibles. Dave ran more audibles than even Trent Dilfer.

#Ocho
12-29-2006, 03:51 AM
Also, since I know just a little about Fresno State's program, the whole thing started with Jim Sweeney who was a Raiders assistant. In this Fresno area you have Clovis High School's stadium named after Darryl Lamonica who is a hated local Bass fisherman and Tom Flores from Sanger High. It's almost incestual as all of these coaches know everyone and as far as the college ranks are concerned out West, LaVell Edwards at BYU had the biggest influence on the college coaches. You go back to Sweeney having Dennis Erickson on his staff, the drunken incidents that are legendary... etc.

Jeff Tedford was a QB for Sweeney and went on to the CFL and had a Kubiak type career. Not very good but knowledgeable. LaVell had Norm Chow and Sweeney had Tedford. All of these guys had Bill Walsh (tangential) with the model of the original Cleveland Browns "West Coast Offense."

Great offensive minds started adopting these principals and incorporating these ideas into what they had to work with. Your typical SEC, Big-11 I formation power football doesn't work with smaller and less talented players. So out West they started to use brains against brawn.

I've seen two Pac 10 coaches fired as a result of a Fresno State team that put 9 players in the NFL the year Dilfer and Neal graduated. Cal's former coach whined, "Do you see how many guys they put into the NFL?" Larry Smith with Rob Johnson (whose father was a QB for Fresno waaay back) dissed Dilfer's team saying they should never have to play them. I remember watching Lorenzo Neal put his NCAA Heavyweight Wrestling Championship bowling ball self through Willie McGinnest and drive him 5 to 10 yards backwards each time Lorenzo had the compulsion to run him over.

Now, the run and shoot June Jones Hawai'i and Boise State garbage that works against small teams like Fresno? Well, How is Boise's Ryan Diwiddie doing or even Hawai'i's Timmy Chang doing? Where are they right now? Oh no, let's not forget Colorado State's Bradlee Van Pelt. I'm sure you've all hear of Bradlee right?

You see haytas, you can bash David Carr all you want, but you are the same guys that think a one trick pony like Vince Young is the answer. For that... I give you haytas, two snaps down! hahahaha

I miss In Living Color. Great show.

AggieTexanFan
12-29-2006, 04:05 AM
I fully expect Carr to be here next year, but if he starts is another question

Kubes will bring in competion and I truely believe the best QB we have on roster will start, whether it is Carr or not

#Ocho
12-29-2006, 04:32 AM
I fully expect Carr to be here next year, but if he starts is another question

Kubes will bring in competion and I truely believe the best QB we have on roster will start, whether it is Carr or not

How about another ex Fresno QB in Billy Volek? I'm kidding. Enjoy the loss to Tedford's Cal team.

Yes, if only Vince Young was here to rescue the Texans. They would be Super Bowl champs.

Seriously, I'm going to let Kubes do what he was hired to do. If Carr shows no improvement next year, then bench DC and/or trade him. He's had one year of Kubes and let's see what Kubes does with him. I strongly believe Kubes will do the right thing.

tsip
12-29-2006, 08:32 AM
How about another ex Fresno QB in Billy Volek? I'm kidding. Enjoy the loss to Tedford's Cal team.

Yes, if only Vince Young was here to rescue the Texans. They would be Super Bowl champs.

Seriously, I'm going to let Kubes do what he was hired to do. If Carr shows no improvement next year, then bench DC and/or trade him. He's had one year of Kubes and let's see what Kubes does with him. I strongly believe Kubes will do the right thing.

Well, it's that time of the year, again--you know, where all these ''new'' posters 'suddenly' come out of the wood work to talk about giving Carr '1' more year. I forgot--how many of those Cal QB's are successfully starting in the NFL?...got to be a 'ton' of them, based upon all the excuses for their 'under achievement.

Yeah, Carr's going to light it up next year like never before! The Texans are going to get a 'special' waiver that allows them to pay for an 'all-pro' at every offensive position (including back-ups) for David--nothing but the absolute best for Carr...too, there will be special penalties against players that sack Carr more than the avg for all the other teams in the NFL on a weekly changing average--too, players on the team that drop balls or line men that give up sacks or RB's that fumble will be given 'special' fines.

Yep, whatever David wants when he wants it how he wants--nothing is ever too much for our David--oh, and don't forgrt the 'add-on' fines for dirt on Carr's uniform...next year, Carr's year....

Mr teX
12-29-2006, 09:45 AM
So....... are we saying David has no other problems other than the OLine, or that fixing the OL will automatically fix David's other problems??

what i'm saying is that fixing the OL will curtail alot of the problems people on this board seem to think are DC & only DC (taking too many sacks, reading defenses, throwing the ball downfield more, staring down WR's etc). If he has time in the pocket on a consistent basis to actually slow himself down instead of trying to keep 1 eye on his back side & the other downfield, he can be better for this team.

I know, I know your supossed to keep your eyes downfield at all times & have pocket awareness, but i believe that little pocket awareness he had got "sacked" out of him a lil while ago. Plus pocket awareness is relative. Whether you're side-stepping & throwing the ball or taking off & running for 3-5 yards doesn't matter IMO as long as something positive can be gained at the appropriate time.

TexansFanatic
12-29-2006, 01:02 PM
Fresno State ran and still runs a Pro Set offense that was 50/50 run and pass. They didn't run a Norm Chow/Jeff Tedford offense like when Trent Dilfer and Lorenzo Neal embarrassed USC back in the day. They run Pat Hill's stubborn run "smash mouth" football with an offensive line not known to run block very well against the Top 20 schools.

The Capers offense with Palmer basically took away everything that was DC's strength trying to run a simple offense that lacked imagination. Fresno State's offense to this day IS more complex than Houston's. Why? Because Dave wasn't getting sacked every other play.

You watch Cal beat the Aggies tonight? THAT was the offense Fresno State used to run as Tedford was the OC before Pat Hill came in with a watered-down Cleveland Browns/Baltimore Ravens running offense that Dave had to deal with.

Face it, Capers' staff was incompetent and taught Dave absolutely nothing for 4 years. I still can't believe Dom and staff were allowed to be that incompetent for so long.

You guys that hate Carr... I really don't blame you because you don't see the big picture. I say let Kubiak do what he was brought in to do and take it from there.

Does DC have problems? Sure he does. He keeps the ball low as stated earlier and can't possibly have any timing down with his receivers if he's on his back. Fresno State was almost all timing patterns and audibles. Dave ran more audibles than even Trent Dilfer.


Terrific post. Thanks for the info.

#Ocho
12-29-2006, 01:07 PM
I forgot--how many of those Cal QB's are successfully starting in the NFL?...got to be a 'ton' of them, based upon all the excuses for their 'under achievement.

Last I checked, and correct me since you know all... Dilfer, Volek, and Carr went to Fresno State, not Cal. Your point is???? That's what I thought.

Runner
12-29-2006, 01:11 PM
The Capers offense with Palmer basically took away everything that was DC's strength trying to run a simple offense that lacked imagination.

Is the bolded portion supposed to reference Palmer's offense or Carr's strength?

If the former, it is incorrect. The Plamer offense, when run correctly, is very complex. There is a lot of reading and adjusting that is supposed to occur.

old football fan
12-29-2006, 01:16 PM
...not taking VY!...Punish Carr!...at least warn me next time so I can wear my boots!!...time is running out on 'whiney/know it all/can't make enough excuses/lie/offer no facts/will just pretend Carr never existed when he's gone and we have an effective QB...ala, Carr who?'


...from the Chronicle

Little to show for
This season, when Carr could have done so much to help himself, and so many people inside and outside the organization were pulling for him, the wins did not come because he did more. They came because he did less.

He threw downfield less. The game plans were tightened and simplified, and not just because he could not get the job done. But nevertheless he could not make the big plays.

The defense improved, the offensive line had better moments and the running game found a go-to back.

Carr deserves one more happy day at Reliant Stadium, at least. He has earned that much.

But no matter what after Sunday, there should be no promises for the next dance.

Listen to John P. Lopez weekdays from noon-3 p.m. on 790 AM. john.lopez@chron.com

Now people are buying into what stupid hack writers have to say. Don't you realize it is there job to print untruths to get people mad about something. I mean it these hackers(Lopez, McCain, Justus) are so smart why aren't they on the payroll of NFL teams as GM's or Scouts. Give me a break!!!!!!

Odogg
12-29-2006, 01:27 PM
This needs to be DC's Last Game as a Houston Texan, period. There is no "fixing" David Carr since he never was a very good QB in the first place. He could be a decent "caretaker" backup similar to Brian Griese in Chicago. Someone who wouldn't disrupt a lockeroom and could come in on short notice to hand the ball off until the other QB gets healthy again.

Double Barrel
12-29-2006, 01:33 PM
If he is back next year does anyone really think that you will see anything that we have not seen before from our QB and do you honestly expect him to show us something that he has learned?

KT, you have to step back and look at the BIG PICTURE. We will have a good idea of what David Carr is all about by the end of his career. It can take awhile to evaluate players sometimes. :shades:

You see haytas, you can bash David Carr all you want, but you are the same guys that think a one trick pony like Vince Young is the answer.

That 'one trick pony' has his 0-5 team closer to the playoffs in his rookie year than Carr has done in 5 seasons. :ok:

I'm not a VY-homer, but that's just a stupid football comment. Talk about 'hayta', or whatever that word is supposed to be. You're blinded by it.

dantem
12-29-2006, 02:25 PM
That 'one trick pony' has his 0-5 team closer to the playoffs in his rookie year than Carr has done in 5 seasons. :ok:


VY did very little in most of those games, he was in the right place at the right time, they would have won them with just about any NFL QB in there. The Titan defense has carried the team, Young misses as many passes as he completes, and other than beiang able to run the ball, he does not seem to be very special at all.

For some reason people on this board can't get the concept that the QB is not responsible for wins and losses. He is one small piece of the puzzle in pro football. In many cases the QB's good or bad day has nothing to do with the outcome of the game.

#Ocho
12-29-2006, 03:26 PM
Is the bolded portion supposed to reference Palmer's offense or Carr's strength?

If the former, it is incorrect. The Plamer offense, when run correctly, is very complex. There is a lot of reading and adjusting that is supposed to occur.

Palmer's offense was very complex? They used to show the sack show the first two years of Texans football here. They didn't even know that the TE was an eligible receiver back then. They were so predictable that even the fans knew what the play was going to be before the snap. We're talking about Palmer the former OC and not Carson Palmer right?

Runner
12-29-2006, 03:31 PM
Palmer's offense was very complex? They used to show the sack show the first two years of Texans football here. They didn't even know that the TE was an eligible receiver back then. They were so predictable that even the fans knew what the play was going to be before the snap. We're talking about Palmer the former OC and not Carson Palmer right?

The Palmer offense, when run correctly, is very complex.

Place the blame where you will.

#Ocho
12-29-2006, 03:49 PM
So you're saying because of Carr, the "very complex" Palmer offense was never run correctly? Is THAT what you're saying? Tell me you're kidding. Have you ever watched him play at Fresno State to at least have a point of reference? If you say "Yes," then you're intellectually dishonest.

HJam72
12-29-2006, 03:51 PM
It wasn't run at all because Capers likes the run, run, run, punt offense. It was Capers that stifled Palmer. Pendry (and I say that name with much disdain) made it worse.

#Ocho
12-29-2006, 03:54 PM
It wasn't run at all because Capers likes the run, run, run, punt offense. It was Capers that stifled Palmer. Pendry (and I say that name with much disdain) made it worse.

Okay, I remember that now and you're right. Well anyway, the offense that was run was predictable and just frustrating to watch.

#Ocho
12-29-2006, 04:07 PM
Let me add one more thing. You guys would be sooo jealous of us Fresno area sports fans. We GET to watch the 49ers and Raiders. No black outs... just baaaad football. So we got THAT going for us.

NATHANHALE
12-29-2006, 05:09 PM
Let me add one more thing. You guys would be sooo jealous of us Fresno area sports fans. We GET to watch the 49ers and Raiders. No black outs... just baaaad football. So we got THAT going for us.

...board has been here 5 yrs--no way you just started posting for your buddy(kin)--what were some of your old handles?

NATHANHALE
12-29-2006, 05:13 PM
Last I checked, and correct me since you know all... Dilfer, Volek, and Carr went to Fresno State, not Cal. Your point is???? That's what I thought.

I think the reference was to QB's from Fresno State, as Cal being generic but-non the less- you answered the question for me--nothing special for FS (stands for Fresno State) QB's in the NFL--kinda like Texas Tech QB's--great in their college systems but not so on a consisitent basis in the NFL

NATHANHALE
12-29-2006, 05:32 PM
Last I checked, and correct me since you know all... Dilfer, Volek, and Carr went to Fresno State, not Cal. Your point is???? That's what I thought.


http://www.csufresno.edu/

...sorry, I left off State---Cal State, Fresno...so exactly when is Carr going to become an all-pro??...ever. Your point is???? never, because 'everything' is not perfect around, Davey. That's what I thought.

Runner
12-29-2006, 06:03 PM
So you're saying because of Carr, the "very complex" Palmer offense was never run correctly? Is THAT what you're saying? Tell me you're kidding. Have you ever watched him play at Fresno State to at least have a point of reference? If you say "Yes," then you're intellectually dishonest.

Again, I said:

Place the blame where you will.

All I said is Palmer's offense is complex and to place the blame where you will. You brought up Carr.

There are plenty of culprits to suspect when identifying why it was never run to its fullest extent: offensive line, Capers' and then Pendry's influence, and yes - Carr. Some combination of these and other factors are undoubtedly the cause.

Read more of my posts before assuming I'm intellectually dishonet. Or don't and keep assuming what I mean.

Odogg
12-29-2006, 06:09 PM
I don't know why those Fresno State Bulldogs even show up to play, since they face such powerhouses like San Jose State and LaTech. And I guess it was all Mariucci, Saban and others coaching staffs that made Joey Harrington look bad in Detroit and now Miami. Sometimes, the actual player on the FIELD is responsible for looking like garbage. Some of you guys live in fantasy land.

touttail
12-30-2006, 06:11 AM
I think Carr is beyond "being fixed"!

I have watched him at games time and time again, stare down his primary reciever. He VERY seldom checks off unless it is to dump to a RB.

Open recievers aren't seen. Don't think he has the knack for reading defenses and looking off a safety.

Bobby 119C

#Ocho
12-30-2006, 07:17 AM
I don't know why those Fresno State Bulldogs even show up to play, since they face such powerhouses like San Jose State and LaTech. And I guess it was all Mariucci, Saban and others coaching staffs that made Joey Harrington look bad in Detroit and now Miami. Sometimes, the actual player on the FIELD is responsible for looking like garbage. Some of you guys live in fantasy land.

Some of you don't know who Fresno State plays in non-conference. Go back and look at who they play in non-conference and get back to me. Yeah, the mighty San Jose State and La Tech are the only teams they play. Good thing you went and selectively looked up to see who they've played to sink your argument little fella.

Oh, last I've checked for the Cal deflectors not "getting it," Cal has these things called academic admission standards where a raging moron that can play for an SEC or Big 12 team may not be academically qualified to play for Cal. Then again, Cal isn't Oregon nor Fresno State and your strawman argument doesn't fly with those that have more than one brain cell. Through the miracle of cell mitosis, maybe there is hope for the Carr haters. I doubt it though.

Keep spinning with your hate for #8. It's pathetic and I have never said Carr isn't blameless. But spin away nonetheless.

Have no fear gang...I'm sure the Texans brain trust will draft a punter in next year's 1st round. Naw, maybe they'll trade down and get some former Pro Bowl OL that are on MedicAid to be "bookends" for the IR roster spots. That way the DC haters can claim they have a good OL full of talent... like some of you are doing with the IR roster right now.

I predict next year the Texans are in the playoffs. Yes, you heard me right... next year the Texans will be in the playoffs. I have a few buddies in Houston and say sports talk radio is mind numbingly DOMINANT about VY, Reggie Bush, and Mario Williams all day EVERY DAY.

Spin, deflect, next? Shock me there haters. Shock me with actual knowledge and not hatchet jobs. There are many here that actually understand the problems (which include DC) and not focus only upon DC.

srstex
12-30-2006, 07:44 AM
Move to decaf before you post again, but I agree the Texans look to finally have a core of good offensive linemen, or a good system that took awhile for everyone to understand. Winston looks good at RT, Spencer looked pretty good for 4 games, Salaam as old as he is has been steady the last 4 games, Flannigan gets too much hate,when healthy he can be trusted,Mckinney looked good last week ( one week doesn't make a career-but Carr & he have a good exchange relatioship ), Pitts is a rock at LG. We may have a solid O line to start the season, another good draft and next year looks like the playoffs are not as far off as this season's record indicates. Looking at the teams going to the playoffs, it can be said that without a well rounded team they will not be there long ( Colts ). Kubiak is doing in one year what Capers/Casserly couldn't or wouldn't for 5, build the team from the inside out O'line,D line, run then pass. Although I am no longer a Homer, I am still not a hater, if Sage or VanPelt can win the job, good, but change for the sake of change is never a good idea.

#Ocho
12-30-2006, 07:56 AM
Good points. Look, I get really tired of hearing people from there on the phone and then reading things here that focus soley on the QB. I'm all for letting the QB's battle for a starting spot. Sage has played how much and is getting the love? That tells me there are desperate fans. I've even read where fans here are up for Jake Plummer. That would be 2 steps backward. Just because he understands the Kubiak offense doesn't mean he can actually perform in it. Ever hear of Jake Cutler? I'm not directing this at you, but am trying to get the Carr haters to see reality.

Bradlee Van Pelt. Houston would be smart to incorporate him into a "slash" position maybe as a slot receiver. That guy can flat out run with serious speed in the open field. His "whiteness" would be a nice distractor as I've seen him run at Colorado State.

Back to my prediction, I truly believe the Texans make the playoffs next year. They shot themselves in the foot by not taking Reggie Bush while wanting to pass on VY to keep Carr, but that former cluster-******* staff is gone.

So, I would love to see consistent play against Cleveland and then off-season maturity and good draft picks or FA acquisitions. This team is right on the edge of turning it around.

thunderkyss
12-30-2006, 09:48 AM
Good points. Look, I get really tired of hearing people from there on the phone and then reading things here that focus soley on the QB. I'm all for letting the QB's battle for a starting spot. Sage has played how much and is getting the love? That tells me there are desperate fans. I've even read where fans here are up for Jake Plummer. That would be 2 steps backward. Just because he understands the Kubiak offense doesn't mean he can actually perform in it. Ever hear of Jake Cutler? I'm not directing this at you, but am trying to get the Carr haters to see reality.

Bradlee Van Pelt. Houston would be smart to incorporate him into a "slash" position maybe as a slot receiver. That guy can flat out run with serious speed in the open field. His "whiteness" would be a nice distractor as I've seen him run at Colorado State.

Back to my prediction, I truly believe the Texans make the playoffs next year. They shot themselves in the foot by not taking Reggie Bush while wanting to pass on VY to keep Carr, but that former cluster-******* staff is gone.

So, I would love to see consistent play against Cleveland and then off-season maturity and good draft picks or FA acquisitions. This team is right on the edge of turning it around.


#1..... the reason the QB position is talked about(complained about) so much, is because it is the only position that we have not tried to "fix"..... every other position on this team has been addressed numerous times......

#2.... I don't care who our QB is, as long as he starts to play well. I believe most people feel like I do. If David ever starts to play with some competence, we'd lay off..

#3.... I was against it, but I agree. After seeing Reggie as the primary weapon for NewOrleans, he could have helped relieve the pressure on David quite a bit.

#4... You honestly don't believe that Sage has outplayed David every chance he's had?? Seriously?? Even looking at a rookie like JayCutler who has outperformed David...... that should tell you something.

CowboysTexansFan
12-30-2006, 10:50 AM
#1..... the reason the QB position is talked about(complained about) so much, is because it is the only position that we have not tried to "fix"..... every other position on this team has been addressed numerous times......

#2.... I don't care who our QB is, as long as he starts to play well. I believe most people feel like I do. If David ever starts to play with some competence, we'd lay off..

#3.... I was against it, but I agree. After seeing Reggie as the primary weapon for NewOrleans, he could have helped relieve the pressure on David quite a bit.

#4... You honestly don't believe that Sage has outplayed David every chance he's had?? Seriously?? Even looking at a rookie like JayCutler who has outperformed David...... that should tell you something.


Good post. I've been critical of David lately, but it's solely because of his play, not because I dislike him as a person. Like you, if he starts to play well, I will also lay off.

One of the reasons I'm down on Carr is that I'm seeing so many other young QB's outplay him. Leinert is already better than Carr despite the fact that the Arizona line is unquestionably worse than the Texans. Romo is 10X better than Carr despite having only a fraction of Carr's experience and a line that's of about the same quality as Houston's.

Some of Carr's supporters apparently won't think the team is doing enough for Carr until we have 10 Pro Bowlers on offense at every position but QB, which is never going to happen.

I think it's better for everyone if the team parts ways with Carr next year. Maybe David will go on to have a fine career with someone else, and I hope he does because he's a good guy, but I don't think it's going to happen here and I'm tired of waiting for him to come around. His play against Oakland and New England was pure garbage and totally unacceptable for a 5 year starter who was the #1 pick and making $8 million/year.

Honoring Earl 34
12-30-2006, 10:58 AM
I completely endorse TK's viewpoint and would like to add that it's not about the QB with most it's about winning .

I don't care who the QB is and I've stated that Mario is the player I watch the most but I still get neg reps calling me a VY lover if anything is said about Carr ... this is like a communist news paper ... only say good things . After 5 seasons the only thing we know about Carr as a QB is he might be good if he had ____ ( you fill in the blank ) .

If the OL if 30% at fault . This group has 5 positions . It's complicated in nature to mix and match five positions and gel .

IF the WR / RB / TE are 15% at fault . This group has 5 positions .

If coaching and schemes are 30% at fault . Two well respected OCs and a goofball . I do not believe that Palmer and Kubiak became dumb overnight ... there's something missing .

That means one component is 25% by himself . The most important player on the field 90% of the time and we still don't know much about our QB being worthy of the first overall pick .

A Texan
12-30-2006, 11:05 AM
#ocho is obviously looking through his DC colored glasses and just as obviously does not have any real interest in whether the Texans win or not. As for Sage vs. Carr, he obviously missed the first Titans game where Sage replaced David at halftime when David had been unable to do anything right and Sage came in and almost led the team to victory.

GP
12-30-2006, 12:05 PM
What to fix?

1. Throwing motion. But it won't happen. His throwing motion is awful awful awful. Garcia zips that ball in one fluid motion, as do most other QBs. David winds up like a baseball pitcher and his hand turns over at the end of the throw and the ball just generally takes a year to leave his hand...add to that the low trajectory and how it gest batted down and we have a problem that I believe causes 99% of his problems.

2. Stop being a nice guy (on the field). He needs to rip his teammates a new one when needed...but he doesn't do it, IMO, because he feels that he can't do it to them when he's been just as awful himself. He's got to lose that mentality and take an "I'm the captain of this ship and you'll walk the plank if you don't do things the way I want them." Even Favre makes bone-head errors and yet he STILL rips his teammates a new one in spite of his own errors.

3. Run earlier. Tuck the ball and get 3 or 4 yards more often. It opens up a lot: Defenders are less likely to blitz when they think the QB will tuck and run..they freeze in the middle, waiting for the QB keeper. And it makes the d backfield a little hesitant, too, because they keep an eye on the QB keeper.

4. Get away from the center FASTER during the snap and backdrop. He is slow getting away from the center. Maybe this is to counter the problem he had earlier of getting tripped up, etc., but it seems that the defenders are already a half-step up the field before he's even hitting his first backstep.

I am 50-50 on Carr. He has a bad throwing motion, and that's just not corrected easily IMO.

Managing games and not trying to force things, as long as the playcalling is good and his teammates don;t screw up, is about the best to hope for with David.

Is that what I envision for our team? Not really. I want a guy who just naturally goes out there and comes up a winner no matter what.

VY fits that description, but he is going to get injured--Mark my words. He runs too much, IMO, and I think he's going to suffer an ankle or foot injury that will limit his success. He just seems to be an injury waiting to happen.

David, on the other hand, is as tough as they get. Look at all the hits, and he's never really been out for long. Amazing, if you ask me. One thing we cannot question is t hat the dude takes a lick and doesn't sit on the bench for long.

Not saying that it qualifies him as a great QB, or even worth keeping on the team, but I think VY is not going to be AS durable as Carr has been.

People say Troy Smith is too short, too small. I say he's a heckuva' leader. He finds ways to win. Period.

Can Carr be fixed? I don't think so. I like him, and I've fought a lot of message board battles for him...but he's living on borrowed time if you ask me.

thunderkyss
03-17-2007, 11:10 AM
I think Carr needs to work on his progressions also and develop more confidence on throwing the timing routes. Part of his problem IMO he throws a .5 second too late when the receiver comes out of his break and that give the db time to close the gap on the receiver.

Great point... a big reason why our receivers look as though they never get seperation.

no problem:shades:
I'm just tired of all the constant either Carr bashing or People who do think Carr is perfect and its everybody else's fault and I think thats why Tkyss started this thread and worded it the way he did. :shots:
Sorry if I'm putting words in your mouth TKyss.:respect:

You're not putting words in my mouth, you're spot on.


I thought this was a good thread. Lots of good points, with only a little bickering. It was nice to read through again.

HoustonFrog
03-17-2007, 11:29 AM
Nice thread TK.

I think Carr has alot of work to do. The three things that bother me the most or that I have observed over and over...(sorry, they are most likely repeats but 5 pages on a Saturday won't do:))

1) Footwork-Happy feet is the key term. I'm sure most people who support him will say that it is because he got beat down but guys like Aikman did and survived. I would love to see him take the drop, sit in the pocket and be able to slide or look natural. He doesn't. Some might also put this in "pocket presence" but I look at it as all the same. The basic concept is keep the head scanning the field while being able to feel pressure and slide or step up.

2) General thinking--I'll get blasted for this but Carr, in my book, has rocks for brains at times. His decision making in 5 years has worsened, not improved. If you are outside the tackles and there is a lineman closing in, throw it away, don't duck. I think there are many reasons why we don't let him audible and run the shotgun, etc. I could rant in this section but will leave it as is.

3) Locking off defenders--One of my biggest pet peeves. Even if I saw him going through the progression and getting blasted I'd see progress but in general, there is no READ, it is turn and throw.

Mr teX
03-17-2007, 01:14 PM
Nice thread TK.

I think Carr has alot of work to do. The three things that bother me the most or that I have observed over and over...(sorry, they are most likely repeats but 5 pages on a Saturday won't do:))

1) Footwork-Happy feet is the key term. I'm sure most people who support him will say that it is because he got beat down but guys like Aikman did and survived. I would love to see him take the drop, sit in the pocket and be able to slide or look natural. He doesn't. Some might also put this in "pocket presence" but I look at it as all the same. The basic concept is keep the head scanning the field while being able to feel pressure and slide or step up.

2) General thinking--I'll get blasted for this but Carr, in my book, has rocks for brains at times. His decision making in 5 years has worsened, not improved. If you are outside the tackles and there is a lineman closing in, throw it away, don't duck. I think there are many reasons why we don't let him audible and run the shotgun, etc. I could rant in this section but will leave it as is.

3) Locking off defenders--One of my biggest pet peeves. Even if I saw him going through the progression and getting blasted I'd see progress but in general, there is no READ, it is turn and throw.

regarding # 2, all QB's make 3-4 questionable decisions a game IMO. Montana, Aikman & Brady are the only QB's i've personally seen where their mental game far outweighs/ed their physical game & it allows/ed them to play the position near flawless (I'm sure you could think of some Older QB's like that that you've seen play). The mental game to play like the above mentioned is rare & most guys who play the position could be very good to great, but still avg. those # of questionable decisions a game ala Favre, McNabb etc. Whether that's an int., fumble or what you mentioned above about Carr, i still think that DC is only a little off in that regard.

For the most part though, i agree & I don't think that any of it will ever get fixed to the point he can be who we thought he could be either; i think he's a lost cause b/c of the punishment he's taken which is why i am & have ALWAYS been on the bandwagon to go in another direction, which is contrary to popular belief around here.

Now how/why DC ended up like that & how we go about going in another direction is ...............................................

NFLforher
03-17-2007, 05:19 PM
....... Even David's staunchest supporters must admit that David needs to be fixed. A big reason Gary Kubiak is in Houston, is the success he's had with "fixing" QBs.

This thread, is for guys who want to talk football. If the extent of your opinion is David Carr sucks..... or that David can be great.... try to refrain from posting here.

Instead, what I would like, is for everyone to list the three aspects of David's game they feel he needs to work on......... or if you're a homer, list the three things that puts him in the class of the elites....

I'm a hater, so I'll list the three things he needs to get better at....... the most.

I think Kubiak has done a great job keeping David's eyes downfield(albeit on one reciever) & identifying the problem with his feet(not the happy feet thing)..... but there is more to do.


1) Reading the defense.

--When he comes to the LOS, he should be able to see what the defense is doing, and note any obvious mismatches. Or at the very least, he should understand that certain players lined up in pass protection against the sideline is an advantage, and motioning the TE(the player being covered by the DE converted to LB) to the right tackle is a bad move when the play is a run designed to go off the right tackle.

--Owen, AJ, Moulds lined up in the slot against smaller DBs is an advantage for us.

--AJ or Moulds covered by a LB in the slot is an advantage for us.... these should be the #1 read, regardless what the play called for.

2) Ball placement..... we've finally got a real threat at the #2 WR spot, and a threat at recieving tightend that should keep Safeties Honest. We are getting AJ & Moulds on one on one coverage often, and not putting the ball where it needs to be.

3) short termed memory........ when things go bad for David, he tends to get in a funk. After a sack, 9 times out of 10, the next play is going to be a run play, so David can gather himself. After an INT..... he is reluctant to go to that reciever again, much less down field again.

Staring down his receivers.

Staying in the pocket when he gets one.

Ibar_Harry
03-17-2007, 06:04 PM
I think David thinks to much as a QB. I know that sounds strange, but if you think about the two games in which he was allowed to call his own plays he did well. Part of that might well be it took his mind away from mechanics and he knew what he was trying to accomplish. He used knowledge from his players to set up what was happening and it made him more of a leader in their eyes. From the description of those games the players enjoyed it as well.

As I have often stated the QB has to be on the same page as the coach as to what they are trying to set up. Wilkens of NBA fame commented on this same thing. He had to learn as a coach that his players often did not see what he naturally saw happening. This could well be the case with David. Since we have seen he has done well on two occasions calling plays why not try it? We know after the coaching staff took back the play calling the Texans went down hill in both games.

The mismanagement of David by the Texans has put impossible pressure on David. In the eyes of the Houston fans he can do no right. If he successfully called his own games it might make a startling difference to all involved. I certainly have not been estatic about the play calling of any of the coaches we have had including the current administration.

When you have the ability to call your own plays then you can take advantage of the other team and you are able to run 2 minute offenses since the QB can now make decisions without waiting for decisions from the bench. I know many, including myself, have been up in arms about the lack of a two minute offense. That, however, is the fault of the coaching staff taking away what is necessary to be successful in that part of the game.

Honoring Earl 34
03-17-2007, 06:09 PM
I've always wanted the Texans to try the Bills old no huddle offense .

Second Honeymoon
03-17-2007, 06:26 PM
I've always wanted the Texans to try the Bills old no huddle offense .

no huddle requires a command of the entire playbook and the ability to read defenses and burn the blitz. Carr sucks at reading a defense and burning a blitz, thus he is always blitzed.

Honoring Earl 34
03-17-2007, 06:34 PM
no huddle requires a command of the entire playbook and the ability to read defenses and burn the blitz. Carr sucks at reading a defense and burning a blitz, thus he is always blitzed.

Jim Kelly was good at it and he was never considered a real cerebal QB .

He did have a good feel for the game and he was a leader .

Second Honeymoon
03-17-2007, 06:49 PM
Jim Kelly was good at it and he was never considered a real cerebal QB .

He did have a good feel for the game and he was a leader .

he could burn the blitz with the best of them, and based on his consistent success throughout his career, he must have had a good handle on whatever playbook he was given whether or not the play was called at line or huddle.

but anywho...Carr has never shown a command of any playbook he has been given. He has consistently had to have 'dumbed down' versions of each OC's playbook...to the team's detriment not just david's

jvaldez1984
03-17-2007, 06:54 PM
from chron.com...

ASSETS: Tough, mature, intelligent signal caller with tremendous poise and confidence. Has better-than-adequate arm strength and can put some zip on deep balls. Reads defenses well and makes sound decisions with the ball. Is usually accurate and runs well enough to escape the blitz. Can really take a pounding. Is becoming a gritty leader.
FLAWS: Overthrows some receivers and will put too much mustard on the short passes. Doesn't have a standard delivery and will have some passes batted. Forced some passes and gets picked off too often.
CAREER POTENTIAL: Adequate starter. Excellent potential.

Second Honeymoon
03-17-2007, 07:04 PM
from chron.com...

ASSETS: Tough, mature, intelligent signal caller with tremendous poise and confidence. Has better-than-adequate arm strength and can put some zip on deep balls. Reads defenses well and makes sound decisions with the ball. Is usually accurate and runs well enough to escape the blitz. Can really take a pounding. Is becoming a gritty leader.
FLAWS: Overthrows some receivers and will put too much mustard on the short passes. Doesn't have a standard delivery and will have some passes batted. Forced some passes and gets picked off too often.
CAREER POTENTIAL: Adequate starter. Excellent potential.

about Jim Kelly or David Carr? Anyone who thinks Carr reads defenses well or makes sound decisions with the ball is obviously a moron. Poise and confidence? Are you freaking kidding me? Carrs strengths are toughness and *crickets chirping*.....

this must have been written by Asserley...i can't fathom any chron writer being that stupid

as for the OP 'Fixing David', I think he needs a year of riding the pine and being just another rich guy...no one special. maybe then his balls will finally drop and he can turn into a competitor and fight for the privilige of quarterbacking a NFL team. It's not a God given right to be an NFL QB, its a privilige. He just doesnt have the hunger or drive to be the best. He is happy playing QB and its not that important for him to strive to be the best. All the great ones strive to be the best and not just collect a paycheck and smile.

keyfro
03-17-2007, 07:06 PM
helping david out is more about patients than anything else

keep in mind what's probably going through his head once he step up to the line...is there some drunken fan pouring beer on my wife and kids...is this next play going to cause that...i've been sacked 250 times in five years so where's the blitzer coming from...do i have a concussion...what's the snap count...why am i not in shotgun?

what's going to help carr is simply time to sit...watch somebody...a veteran who is a proven winner in this league...and learn that not every time he takes a snap is going to get sacked...maybe just maybe time holding a clipboard would help him the most

maybe if the packers make the deal for randy moss and send aaron rodgers to oakland then greenbay will call smith and offer a 3rd or a combo of picks for carr so he can sit behind farve the guy he's been compared to by so many people and learn that it takes a gunslinger's mentality to make it when the o-line is full of hall of famers

Second Honeymoon
03-17-2007, 07:13 PM
helping david out is more about patients than anything else

so we haven't had enough patients with Carr? iz dat wut dey tott u in Lubbuck? :joker:

just joking man, but I think we have actually shown too much patience. its finally wearing thin though...it just 5 years of witness for McNair to get the picture..

HoustonFrog
03-17-2007, 07:21 PM
helping david out is more about patients than anything else

keep in mind what's probably going through his head once he step up to the line...is there some drunken fan pouring beer on my wife and kids...is this next play going to cause that...i've been sacked 250 times in five years so where's the blitzer coming from...do i have a concussion...what's the snap count...why am i not in shotgun?
what's going to help carr is simply time to sit...watch somebody...a veteran who is a proven winner in this league...and learn that not every time he takes a snap is going to get sacked...maybe just maybe time holding a clipboard would help him the most

maybe if the packers make the deal for randy moss and send aaron rodgers to oakland then greenbay will call smith and offer a 3rd or a combo of picks for carr so he can sit behind farve the guy he's been compared to by so many people and learn that it takes a gunslinger's mentality to make it when the o-line is full of hall of famers

Sorry but if his mind is on some of those things, then he shouldn't be playing QB. It comes with the game. All pro athletes have to deal with ups and downs and fans.

Patience by the way, is something we have had more than enough of. Have you ever seen a QB go 5 years without winning a thing and still have people thinking he needs more pieces around him?

Second Honeymoon
03-17-2007, 07:31 PM
Sorry but if his mind is on some of those things, then he shouldn't be playing QB. It comes with the game. All pro athletes have to deal with ups and downs and fans.

Patience by the way, is something we have had more than enough of. Have you ever seen a QB go 5 years without winning a thing and still have people thinking he needs more pieces around him?

Never. Carr has probably been shown more patience than any QB in the history of the NFL.

Koolaid Time
03-17-2007, 08:25 PM
Never. Carr has probably been shown more patience than any QB in the history of the NFL.

double post

Koolaid Time
03-17-2007, 08:29 PM
Never. Carr has probably been shown more patience than any QB in the history of the NFL.

No kidding.. remember in 1981 when Snake Stabler supposedly retired and Giff Nielsen was the Oilers quarteback for the pre-season? The Oilers stunk, and I don't know Bum gave Snake to come out of retirement.
Giff got 2 months and they pulled him. We have Carr 5 years....

Koolaid Time
03-17-2007, 08:33 PM
Patience by the way, is something we have had more than enough of. Have you ever seen a QB go 5 years without winning a thing and still have people thinking he needs more pieces around him?

Only one....

Dan Pastorini

He stunk from 71-77.

keyfro
03-17-2007, 09:47 PM
HoustonFrog...yeah i know man...i wasn't using writting that to excuse carr's play...i was simply saying that i'm sure those thoughts go through his head...it's just human nature...i mean if your wife and kids had beer thrown on them at your place of business and then a week later they were coming back you don't think those thoughts would be going through your head...i know they would be going through mine...like i said it's just human nature...that's one reason some athletes choose to keep their families at home during home games...but yeah the city of houston and the texan fans have shown enough patience with carr

Second Honeymoon...man LOL that was funny...patients with carr meaning another team is gonna have to have patients with him...he's gotta get his confidence back not only in himself but being a QB and relying on the line to do their jobs

NATHANHALE
03-17-2007, 09:50 PM
...never mind

NFLforher
03-17-2007, 10:07 PM
http://www.csufresno.edu/

...sorry, I left off State---Cal State, Fresno...so exactly when is Carr going to become an all-pro??...ever. Your point is???? never, because 'everything' is not perfect around, Davey. That's what I thought.


Cal is University of California at Berkley.

TwinSisters
03-17-2007, 11:19 PM
Only one....

Dan Pastorini

He stunk from 71-77.

Once Gillman took over the entire franchise turned over from back to back 1 win seasons to a .500 and then 10-4 that would have normally resulted in a playoff berth had wildcards been around.

that's 74 and 75 ... with Pastorini in the Pro Bowl in 75. ( his 5th year )

the Cowboys were in the Super Bowl on a 10-4 that year.
---

Strong armed Lynn Dickey, his only real QB controversy, went on to the Packers to start for 8 and 1/2 seasons. Failing to ever break .500.

NATHANHALE
03-17-2007, 11:44 PM
Cal is University of California at Berkley.

"California State University, Fresno, commonly referred to as Fresno State, is one of the campuses of California State University, located at the northeast edge of Fresno, California, USA."

...so, it's not Cal State University,Fresno for short?...cause I read that all over their sites...

HoustonFrog
03-18-2007, 12:18 AM
HoustonFrog...yeah i know man...i wasn't using writting that to excuse carr's play...i was simply saying that i'm sure those thoughts go through his head...it's just human nature...i mean if your wife and kids had beer thrown on them at your place of business and then a week later they were coming back you don't think those thoughts would be going through your head...i know they would be going through mine...like i said it's just human nature...that's one reason some athletes choose to keep their families at home during home games...but yeah the city of houston and the texan fans have shown enough patience with carr

Second Honeymoon...man LOL that was funny...patients with carr meaning another team is gonna have to have patients with him...he's gotta get his confidence back not only in himself but being a QB and relying on the line to do their jobs

I got ya. I just was putting in my 2 cents. :)

2BCF
03-18-2007, 02:13 AM
I thought this was a thread about limiting Carr's ability to have more children. :joker:

MATRIX
03-18-2007, 04:13 PM
Well, it's that time of the year, again--you know, where all these ''new'' posters 'suddenly' come out of the wood work to talk about giving Carr '1' more year. I forgot--how many of those Cal QB's are successfully starting in the NFL?...got to be a 'ton' of them, based upon all the excuses for their 'under achievement.

Yeah, Carr's going to light it up next year like never before! The Texans are going to get a 'special' waiver that allows them to pay for an 'all-pro' at every offensive position (including back-ups) for David--nothing but the absolute best for Carr...too, there will be special penalties against players that sack Carr more than the avg for all the other teams in the NFL on a weekly changing average--too, players on the team that drop balls or line men that give up sacks or RB's that fumble will be given 'special' fines.

Yep, whatever David wants when he wants it how he wants--nothing is ever too much for our David--oh, and don't forgrt the 'add-on' fines for dirt on Carr's uniform...next year, Carr's year....


And what if he happens to do it? Just wondering.

NFLforher
03-18-2007, 04:24 PM
"California State University, Fresno, commonly referred to as Fresno State, is one of the campuses of California State University, located at the northeast edge of Fresno, California, USA."

...so, it's not Cal State University,Fresno for short?...cause I read that all over their sites...

Naw, it's Fresno state for short or just the Dawgs.

Honoring Earl 34
03-18-2007, 04:25 PM
And what if he happens to do it? Just wondering.

Is it worth risking another year to give a player his 6th try .

I bet you get 3 with most teams .

The Pencil Neck
03-18-2007, 04:43 PM
And what if he happens to do it? Just wondering.

That would RAWK! I would love it! I'd be totally ecstatic.

I just think the odds of that happening are vanishingly small. I expected that if Carr was ever going to start to light things up, it was going to be at the end of last year when he should have been starting to get comfy with the new offense and when we were facing easier opponents. Since it didn't happen then, I don't expect it to happen. That's why I think we need to stop throwing good money after bad and find a way to go in another direction.