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CowboysTexansFan
12-26-2006, 01:29 PM
I was thrilled with the team's win on Sunday and thought Carr played a good game. I don't want to be a killjoy, but here is an interesting piece from PFW, which cites a "source close to the club" as saying he is no better than a 50-50 chance to return to the Texans next year.

If he doesn't return, I wish him the best and hope he plays great on Sunday so his trade value increases. I trust Kubiak to make the right decision, and if he thinks the team will be better off with Plummer, that's fine with me.

http://profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+Way+We+Hear+It/default.htm

"Is David Carr about to play his final game in Houston?

Carr was the Texans’ first-ever draft choice, and he has started all but a handful of the franchise’s games. But the team might be readying to move on without him, the way we hear it.

Texans head coach Gary Kubiak has said that Carr’s status will be evaluated in the offseason, and a source close to the club suggests that Carr is no better than a 50-50 shot to return for a sixth season in Houston. The 27-year-old quarterback is scheduled to make $5.25 million in salary in 2007 and $6 million in ’08, and he could draw interest from other teams looking to pick up a talented veteran who might just need a change of scenery."

[snip]

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 01:34 PM
I was thrilled with the team's win on Sunday and thought Carr played a good game. I don't want to be a killjoy, but here is an interesting piece from PFW, which cites a "source close to the club" as saying he is no better than a 50-50 chance to return to the Texans next year.

If he doesn't return, I wish him the best and hope he plays great on Sunday so his trade value increases. I trust Kubiak to make the right decision, and if he thinks the team will be better off with Plummer, that's fine with me.

http://profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+Way+We+Hear+It/default.htm

"Is David Carr about to play his final game in Houston?

Carr was the Texans’ first-ever draft choice, and he has started all but a handful of the franchise’s games. But the team might be readying to move on without him, the way we hear it.

Texans head coach Gary Kubiak has said that Carr’s status will be evaluated in the offseason, and a source close to the club suggests that Carr is no better than a 50-50 shot to return for a sixth season in Houston. The 27-year-old quarterback is scheduled to make $5.25 million in salary in 2007 and $6 million in ’08, and he could draw interest from other teams looking to pick up a talented veteran who might just need a change of scenery."

[snip]


"If the Texans look to replace Carr, expect Broncos QB Jake Plummer’s name to bounce about the rumor mill, given Kubiak’s work with Plummer as Denver’s offensive coordinator."

I just can't put any credence into an article that has both "IF" and "RUMOR MILL" in the same sentence....

hobie
12-26-2006, 01:36 PM
Texans head coach Gary Kubiak has said that Carr’s status will be evaluated in the offseason, and a source close to the club suggests that Carr is no better than a 50-50 shot to return for a sixth season in Houston. The 27-year-old quarterback is scheduled to make $5.25 million in salary in 2007 and $6 million in ’08, and he could draw interest from other teams looking to pick up a talented veteran who might just need a change of scenery

Well I wonder who the source is...John McLame, John Lopez, or another know it all. A source close to the club, lol. The season isn't over yet and wow, we have someone saying that Carr has a 50% chance of coming back, well geez, that's not really telling anyone anything...The one thing about unnamed sources is that I don't believe it until I hear the HC or owner say it..until then, with 1 game yet to be played, I don't pay any attention..

CowboysTexansFan
12-26-2006, 01:38 PM
"If the Texans look to replace Carr, expect Broncos QB Jake Plummer’s name to bounce about the rumor mill, given Kubiak’s work with Plummer as Denver’s offensive coordinator."

I just can't put any credence into an article that has both "IF" and "RUMOR MILL" in the same sentence....

I see your point, but remember PFW is the leading trade publication of the NFL, and their access to credible sources within the NFL is second to none. This isn't a rumor that was published in ProFootballTalk.com, which I also enjoy. There is more substance to this, but I'm fully aware that this is all speculation at this point. Kubiak has said DC will be evaluated after the season is over, and I take him at his word.

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 01:39 PM
I would like to think that everyone is in agreement that this is not news and we would also agree that we would like to see him perfom well in a win against the Browns.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 01:40 PM
"If the Texans look to replace Carr, expect Broncos QB Jake Plummer’s name to bounce about the rumor mill, given Kubiak’s work with Plummer as Denver’s offensive coordinator."

I just can't put any credence into an article that has both "IF" and "RUMOR MILL" in the same sentence....

signed and agreed. keeping Carr and making him backup or at least compete for job is the best scenario for Texans next year. if sage sucks, Carr is back. If Sage is good, the Texans will be improved and win more and we have depth at QB in case of injury. Its a Win-Win situation. The only way I would accept Plummer is if he was willing to play for just about nothing besides incentives and HUGE playoff bonuses.

I don't buy this quoted article. Carr doesnt have a lot of trade value because teams will just wait for us to cut him and save their draft picks and players. That is how the NFL works nowadays. Don't pay for someone's discarded leftovers when you can just pick it out of the garbage for free.

CowboysTexansFan
12-26-2006, 01:45 PM
signed and agreed. keeping Carr and making him backup or at least compete for job is the best scenario for Texans next year. if sage sucks, Carr is back. If Sage is good, the Texans will be improved and win more and we have depth at QB in case of injury. Its a Win-Win situation. The only way I would accept Plummer is if he was willing to play for just about nothing besides incentives and HUGE playoff bonuses.

I don't buy this quoted article. Carr doesnt have a lot of trade value because teams will just wait for us to cut him and save their draft picks and players. That is how the NFL works nowadays. Don't pay for someone's discarded leftovers when you can just pick it out of the garbage for free.

I have to disagree with you. Carr is way too expensive to keep as a backup. Either he starts or he should be let go. If Plummer comes, I think his price would be a lot lower than Carr's will be next year, and I agree his deal should be laden with incentives.

I don't think the article says Carr has a lot of trade value, it just says he could draw interest. Even Joey Harrington got Detroit a 5th or 6th round pick, so I would think Carr would be worth something more than that. If we could get a 3rd or 4th for him, I would take it (if the team decides to go in another direction).

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 01:45 PM
I see your point, but remember PFW is the leading trade publication of the NFL, and their access to credible sources within the NFL is second to none. This isn't a rumor that was published in ProFootballTalk.com, which I also enjoy. There is more substance to this, but I'm fully aware that this is all speculation at this point. Kubiak has said DC will be evaluated after the season is over, and I take him at his word.

Oh, I agree that it is one of the most credible publications out there, I just have reservations with "50/50 chance", "rumor mills", and "if's". I find that these type of articles (regardless of which publication) are journalistically lazy.

It's kind of like some politicians who say a lot of words, without ever telling you anything.

MrMeToo
12-26-2006, 01:52 PM
5 years as a Texan is enough for Carr.I don't care if he's only been in the current system for a year because he has looked mediocre at best.He might do better some where else but Plummer is a better fit for the Texans because his experience under Kubiak.I can't wait for Carr to slowly progress in the offense.

real
12-26-2006, 01:54 PM
I don't think the article is saying anything that isn't already known....




I don't know if they will actually pull the trigger on a trade, but I fully expect them to entertain offers....

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 01:55 PM
I have to disagree with you. Carr is way too expensive to keep as a backup. Either he starts or he should be let go. If Plummer comes, I think his price would be a lot lower than Carr's will be next year, and I agree his deal should be laden with incentives.

I don't think the article says Carr has a lot of trade value, it just says he could draw interest. Even Joey Harrington got Detroit a 5th or 6th round pick, so I would think Carr would be worth something more than that. If we could get a 3rd or 4th for him, I would take it (if the team decides to go in another direction).

Carr is expensive whether we keep him or not. I just don't see Plummer as any better than Sage. Couple that with the fact that Sage is already signed and has shown promise when given a chance. Would Carr be an expensive backup? Hell yeah, he is but I just dont think its that important to get rid of when he is going to cost you $$ either way. Either way, whether Carr is kept as backup or trade, I will be satisfied that the team is moving forward with or without him. My only worry is that he is anointed starter for another year. That hasn't worked for 5 years so how can they delude themselves to thinking it will work this next year.

I get your point though and agree its not a great situation the Texans currently find themselves in. I just don't want to make moves that are essentially lateral yet higher in overall cost aka Release/Trade Carr and Sign Plummer.

jdog
12-26-2006, 01:59 PM
"If the Texans look to replace Carr, expect Broncos QB Jake Plummer’s name to bounce about the rumor mill, given Kubiak’s work with Plummer as Denver’s offensive coordinator."

I just can't put any credence into an article that has both "IF" and "RUMOR MILL" in the same sentence....

Yeah, well, this is looking like Richard Gere's ride on the hamster wheel. I hope we do not drop Carr and add Plummer.

I really, really, really hope we do not drop Carr and add Plummer.

Really, really.

Really.

C'mon, Kubiak. I know you've worked with Plummer, but let's try something different. At the very least, let's try to get someone the Broncos would want.

Maybe we should see what the Browns have available?

hobie
12-26-2006, 02:03 PM
Well as for keeping or trading or releasing David, his contract would be extremely high in a back up role, but I think until the Texans build an O-line, OR get a QB that you know can take the hits day in and day out like David does, I would keep David for reasons other than his leadership or lack there of. Say what you want, and we all have, but there is not a QB in the NFL today that is as durable now than David. That has worth today in the league.

Could Sage handle the hits as often? Who knows for sure, and he might not put himself in the situations David has over the years to put himself in harms way. But unless I know for certain the O-line has been beefed up, David is as a sure thing when it comes to suiting up come Sundays. He would be a valuable asset to alot of teams that already had a #1 QB.

CowboysTexansFan
12-26-2006, 02:04 PM
Carr is expensive whether we keep him or not. I just don't see Plummer as any better than Sage. Couple that with the fact that Sage is already signed and has shown promise when given a chance. Would Carr be an expensive backup? Hell yeah, he is but I just dont think its that important to get rid of when he is going to cost you $$ either way. Either way, whether Carr is kept as backup or trade, I will be satisfied that the team is moving forward with or without him. My only worry is that he is anointed starter for another year. That hasn't worked for 5 years so how can they delude themselves to thinking it will work this next year.

I get your point though and agree its not a great situation the Texans currently find themselves in. I just don't want to make moves that are essentially lateral yet higher in overall cost aka Release/Trade Carr and Sign Plummer.

You're right, if we get rid of Carr, he's going to occupy a lot of cap space for a year or two. Just like Wade and Walker will occupy a lot of cap space in 2007. I also agree with you that if Plummer comes, he should not be handed the starting job. But I think Kubiak would make it clear to him that he has to earn the job over Sage. Plummer has already expressed a desire to be reunited with Kubiak, so I don't think not being handed the job on a silver platter would be a deal-killer if Plummer is released, as I think he will be.

If we keep Carr, I'm with you that he has to earn the job over Sage in training camp.

hollywood_texan
12-26-2006, 02:07 PM
The better Carr plays against Cleveland, probably the better chance he gets traded, particularly if he has a lights out game.

Here me out here...

Regardless of what Carr does against Cleveland, I seriously doubt it will change Kubiak's mind with whatever he is feeling about Carr. Kubiak has worked with him long enough to know where he stands and one game isn't going to change it one way or the other.

So the higher Carr's value is, the easier it is to unload him and less of the bite considering his contract extension. I am saying maybe they can work a deal with another team.

However, I am sure McNair will stick his nose in the situation and not allow it if Carr plays a great game. McNair is so vested in Carr it is beyond ridiculous.

Also, if Carr does have a lights out game against Cleveland, moves on to somewhere else and plays like Brees has done later in his career, it could be even more egg on the Texans face if they continue to struggle and lose many games.

Keeping or getting rid of Carr is a risky endeavor from a face perspective considering how many chances they have given him. There is an arguement to just let the thing run it's course.

real
12-26-2006, 02:09 PM
particularly if he has a lights out game.



Quick.....


Tell me the last time Carr had a lights out game.....


tick....tick....tick.....

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 02:12 PM
Quick.....


Tell me the last time Carr had a lights out game.....


tick....tick....tick.....

That is what is scary. The Colts game is suppossed to trump 5 years of mediocrity? I think he played great against the backdrop of his entire career. Unfortunately we are not in a pay as you go league.

jdog
12-26-2006, 02:15 PM
You're right, if we get rid of Carr, he's going to occupy a lot of cap space for a year or two. Just like Wade and Walker will occupy a lot of cap space in 2007. I also agree with you that if Plummer comes, he should not be handed the starting job. But I think Kubiak would make it clear to him that he has to earn the job over Sage. Plummer has already expressed a desire to be reunited with Kubiak, so I don't think not being handed the job on a silver platter would be a deal-killer if Plummer is released, as I think he will be.

If we keep Carr, I'm with you that he has to earn the job over Sage in training camp.

Of course Plummer wants to be reunited with Kubiak. Kubiak made him look good, but unfortunately Kubiak can not put on a helmet and play for Plummer when it's choke time. Don't sell your ZZ Top's Greatest Hits album for $2 and buy the ZZ Top's Other Greatest Hits album for $10.

David is showing progress, and if Kubiak kicks him to the curb, I think he has little credibility in his future role as a mentor. We can have an alternative like Rosenfels and groom someone else like Porter while we keep Carr.

afcman
12-26-2006, 02:16 PM
Bottom line: it's time to part ways. For the good of the Texans AND Carr. The team NEEDS a jump start from somebody. We passed on Bush and Young which would have given a spark at the very LEAST. So lets see what happens with THIS draft. I'm looking forward to it.

real
12-26-2006, 02:19 PM
That is what is scary. The Colts game is suppossed to trump 5 years of mediocrity? I think he played great against the backdrop of his entire career. Unfortunately we are not in a pay as you go league.

If we can run the ball like we did against the Colts every week then Carr is our man....


But since we're not going to be playing the worst ranked run defense every week.....I'm a tad bit skeptical....

I give Carr props for those key throws he made to get us into field goal position at the end of the game....But IMO, he didn't have a stellar game....

max274
12-26-2006, 02:22 PM
My 2 cents are : I back the team 100%. IF we keep Carr great... if we dont fine too. All we have is guess work here. The only people that really know what they want to do with the team is the head coach and the owner and I dont think anyone can read minds. While Im disappionted with the performance for the season most people fail to mention that, while Carr may not be the long term answer to the problems here, we also have many many more holes to fill besides the QB. I would rather waste a draft spot on a non QB spot and have them be a bust then end up drafting a Heisman winner and getting jack!.... Besides... the draft is nothing but a crap shoot anyway. I say draft late (for QB) and fill other needs early and work with what you have.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 02:22 PM
Of course Plummer wants to be reunited with Kubiak. Kubiak made him look good, but unfortunately Kubiak can not put on a helmet and play for Plummer when it's choke time. Don't sell your ZZ Top's Greatest Hits album for $2 and buy the ZZ Top's Other Greatest Hits album for $10.

David is showing progress, and if Kubiak kicks him to the curb, I think he has little credibility in his future role as a mentor. We can have an alternative like Rosenfels and groom someone else like Porter while we keep Carr.

The best analysis of the Carr/Plummer/Sage trifecta yet.

we have tried to turn 'muddy water into wine' for 5 years. Here is to trying to turn some 'Sage' into something that actually smokes.

Texan_Bill
12-26-2006, 02:34 PM
The best analysis of the Carr/Plummer/Sage trifecta yet.

we have tried to turn 'muddy water into wine' for 5 years. Here is to trying to turn some 'Sage' into something that actually smokes.

Smoking herbs? I don't get that analogy.............

Double Barrel
12-26-2006, 02:37 PM
...The one thing about unnamed sources is that I don't believe it until I hear the HC or owner say it..until then, with 1 game yet to be played, I don't pay any attention..

I agree, and this is my stance. Nothing is changing until we hear it from the only person that really counts: Kubiak. Until then, it's 100% speculation.

If we can run the ball like we did against the Colts every week then Carr is our man....


But since we're not going to be playing the worst ranked run defense every week.....I'm a tad bit skeptical....

I give Carr props for those key throws he made to get us into field goal position at the end of the game....But IMO, he didn't have a stellar game....

What if we have consistent running game and a defense that can actually protect leads? We're not that far off, IMO.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson both have rings, so it's very possible to be a winning team without a playmaker QB. I honestly think this is the direction of the 2007 Texans until we hear otherwise.

GanadoUHCoog
12-26-2006, 02:48 PM
like I said before, we will trade Carr for a 4th round pick....let plummer or rosenfels start the year...we'll draft a QB in rd 3

rd. 1 CB/S
rd. 2 OLB/OL
rd. 3 QB

MrMeToo
12-26-2006, 02:50 PM
If we can run the ball like we did against the Colts every week then Carr is our man....


But since we're not going to be playing the worst ranked run defense every week.....I'm a tad bit skeptical....

I give Carr props for those key throws he made to get us into field goal position at the end of the game....But IMO, he didn't have a stellar game....

I agree

Mr teX
12-26-2006, 03:01 PM
I agree, and this is my stance. Nothing is changing until we hear it from the only person that really counts: Kubiak. Until then, it's 100% speculation.



What if we have consistent running game and a defense that can actually protect leads? We're not that far off, IMO.
Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson both have rings, so it's very possible to be a winning team without a playmaker QB. I honestly think this is the direction of the 2007 Texans until we hear otherwise.

I agree 100% with this. people on this board forget that the primary staple of the Denver system IS the the running game, & next is tough defense. even when they won their Superbowls, TD was the one who made that work not Elway. Not saying Elway wasn't a stud in his own right, but he knew what was what.

Plus, With the Drafting of Mario last year, I think Kubes & Co. have made it pretty evident what direction they'd like to go in with regard to this franchise & Qb just doesn't seem to be a priority; at least not yet. I also have no doubt that Kubes & Smith will work this franchise in the right direction, & i'd like to see our defense be developed 1st since defensive ball clubs tend to be able to compete a lot faster than offensively geared ball clubs.

jdog
12-26-2006, 03:11 PM
The best analysis of the Carr/Plummer/Sage trifecta yet.

we have tried to turn 'muddy water into wine' for 5 years. Here is to trying to turn some 'Sage' into something that actually smokes.

Yeah, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to say, "David, you're not where I wanted you to be at this time. Sit on the bench and watch Sage."

I would like it better than, "David, it's best for everyone involved if we part ways and bring in Jake the Snake. After all, he had a few years to develop under my instruction before becoming a scrapped project. You only had one, and besides, you were never a Bronco."

real
12-26-2006, 03:17 PM
Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson both have rings, so it's very possible to be a winning team without a playmaker QB.

I think this is the direction we're headed towards as well...


But the Ravens, and Bucs both had established defenses with tons of talent on the defensive side of the ball....The Ravens had one of the top ranked defenses of all time, and I'm pretty sure both were atleast top three the year they won....

And on top of that I don't think Carr has had a year as good as those two the year they won it all....

Nighthawk
12-26-2006, 03:28 PM
Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson both have rings, so it's very possible to be a winning team without a playmaker QB.

Yeah, it's possible, but why would you CHOOSE to do it when playmakers are available.

It's like saying you can be a winning team without any run defense. May be true (Colts) but you wouldn't plan on doing it that way.

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 03:28 PM
Yeah, it's possible, but why would you CHOOSE to do it when playmakers are available.

It's like saying you can be a winning team without any run defense. May be true (Colts) but you wouldn't plan on doing it that way.

That is a funny avatar.

eriadoc
12-26-2006, 03:33 PM
I think this is the direction we're headed towards as well...


But the Ravens, and Bucs both had established defenses with tons of talent on the defensive side of the ball....The Ravens had one of the top ranked defenses of all time, and I'm pretty sure both were atleast top three the year they won....

And on top of that I don't think Carr has had a year as good as those two the year they won it all....

Stats don't tell all, of course ....

2000 Trent Dilfer

GS - 8, Comp % - 59.3, Yds - 1502, YPA - 6.65, TD - 12, INT - 11, Fumbles - 8 (lost 2), rating 76.6, 20 carries for 75 yards, sacked 23 times

2002 Brad Johnson

GS - 13, Comp % - 62.3, Yds - 3049, YPA - 6.76, TD - 22, INT - 6, Fumbles - 8 (lost 2), rating 92.9, 13 carries for 30 yards, sacked 21 times

2004 David Carr

GS - 16, comp % - 61.2, Yds - 3531, YPA - 7.58, TD - 16, INT - 14, Fumbles - 10 (lost 2), rating - 83.5, 73 carries for 299 yards, sacked 49 times

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 03:34 PM
Yeah, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to say, "David, you're not where I wanted you to be at this time. Sit on the bench and watch Sage."

I would like it better than, "David, it's best for everyone involved if we part ways and bring in Jake the Snake. After all, he had a few years to develop under my instruction before becoming a scrapped project. You only had one, and besides, you were never a Bronco."

interesting way of putting it and painfully accurate.

Double Barrel
12-26-2006, 03:34 PM
Yeah, it's possible, but why would you CHOOSE to do it when playmakers are available.

To answer that question, my friend, you'd have to ask Coach Kubiak.

But the Ravens, and Bucs both had established defenses with tons of talent on the defensive side of the ball....The Ravens had one of the top ranked defenses of all time, and I'm pretty sure both were atleast top three the year they won....

And on top of that I don't think Carr has had a year as good as those two the year they won it all....

We can only hope to have a defense worthy enough to merit mention with the Bucs & Raven championship defenses. That would be worth the price of admission alone, IMO.

As far as Carr...yeah, true that he hasn't had that year....yet (added for optimism's sake). I think the philosophy is to reduce the number of chances he gets to make mistakes with a solid running game. And with a [hopefully] dominant defense, we should be able to protect small leads (which further reduces our dependence on the QB position).

It's not a philosophy that I necessarily agree with or want on my team, but it is what it is. If this is our direction - and it looks like it at this point - then I just have to live with it and hope for the best.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 03:38 PM
I think this is the direction we're headed towards as well...


But the Ravens, and Bucs both had established defenses with tons of talent on the defensive side of the ball....The Ravens had one of the top ranked defenses of all time, and I'm pretty sure both were atleast top three the year they won....

And on top of that I don't think Carr has had a year as good as those two the year they won it all....

you also have to consider that B.Johnson and Dilfer were not paid top QB money like Carr is. This allowed them more cap room to improve/maintain the rest of the team around the QB. And your totally accurate in stating that Carr hasn't had as good of a year as Brad or Trent did in their championship seasons. For crying out loud, BJohnson had some great numbers that year. 22 TDs 6 Ints. Those are Pro Bowl numbers and something that David Carr hasn't even remotely approached. Trent's year was a different story altogether. He wasn't asked to do much and he complied....and who is one of David's heroes? Mr. Dilfer....nuff said

eriadoc
12-26-2006, 03:39 PM
Yeah, it's possible, but why would you CHOOSE to do it when playmakers are available.

It's like saying you can be a winning team without any run defense. May be true (Colts) but you wouldn't plan on doing it that way.

What playmakers are available? Carr can be a good QB with a good team around him. Since we don't have a good team around him, we need a QB that can step up and make plays despite the players around him.

Well, so do most other teams.

Jake "the Mistake" Plummer got benched when his team was 7-2 because he was playing very poorly. Put him on this team and he wouldn't do any better. Garcia did well on a pretty good 49ers team, but once he went to the Lions and Browns, he didn't do well at all. Now that he's on a good team, he's doing well again. If playmaking QBs were that available, they'd be snatched up by any number of other teams. I'm all for upgrading the QB position, but I can't point to any single available player that is a certain upgrade. In the draft, I can point to a few hopefuls, and I hope the team goes after one in the second or third round.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 03:44 PM
What playmakers are available? Carr can be a good QB with a good team around him. Since we don't have a good team around him, we need a QB that can step up and make plays despite the players around him.

Well, so do most other teams.

Jake "the Mistake" Plummer got benched when his team was 7-2 because he was playing very poorly. Put him on this team and he wouldn't do any better. Garcia did well on a pretty good 49ers team, but once he went to the Lions and Browns, he didn't do well at all. Now that he's on a good team, he's doing well again. If playmaking QBs were that available, they'd be snatched up by any number of other teams. I'm all for upgrading the QB position, but I can't point to any single available player that is a certain upgrade. In the draft, I can point to a few hopefuls, and I hope the team goes after one in the second or third round.

Dream scenario would be to pickup Troy Smith in the 2nd round, get a 4th or 5th round pick for David, and let Sage compete with Smith for the starting job. Smith would be relatively low cost and risk v. reward and it would be a new beginning with another proven college winner.

old football fan
12-26-2006, 03:44 PM
We need to trade Carr because if you just release him he will still count $4 million against the Texans cap figure.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 03:46 PM
We need to trade Carr because if you just release him he will still count $4 million against the Texans cap figure.

yup, if we cant trade him he needs to be our backup next year or at least have to compete for the starting QB slot in training camp. I am sick of all the dead cap space we spend on guys we get rid of right after signing new big deals (walker, smith, and wade come to mind)

Vinny
12-26-2006, 03:47 PM
We need to trade Carr because if you just release him he will still count $4 million against the Texans cap figure.
Same cap hit either way so it doesn't matter. All amortized bonus money is accelerated to the current year.

old football fan
12-26-2006, 03:53 PM
Same cap hit either way so it doesn't matter. All amortized bonus money is accelerated to the current year.

If you just release him you have his cap hit plus whatever player you sign cap hit. Gee can we get a 1.25 million QB that can be a starter and win us some games?

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 03:53 PM
Same cap hit either way so it doesn't matter. All amortized bonus money is accelerated to the current year.

Unless of course you do it after June 1, then you split it into two years, somehow that makes it easier on the stomach.

It will be interesting to see what the Browns do in respecting our newly found running game. If we can get that going and the Browns have to try and stop that, Carr certainly can have a very good day.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 03:53 PM
well you lose any cap space that you use to sign a QB to replace Carr whether it be high or low dollar. that just means less $ to spend on other positions in Free Agency. If they cut Carr and go economy-mode and go with a Van Pelt or Rattay as backup then it won't hurt too bad but if they go with a higher dollar QB to come in and compete for job like a Plummer or Garcia, then the extra expense starts to make signing a Clements, Hamlin, or Steinbach that much less likely. Just my opinion of course but its mostly logic.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 03:54 PM
Unless of course you do it after June 1, then you split it into two years, somehow that makes it easier on the stomach.

It will be interesting to see what the Browns do in respecting our newly found running game. If we can get that going and the Browns have to try and stop that, Carr certainly can have a very good day.

dude that avatar is very Boogie Nights...I will refrain from reading anything into that :)

Vinny
12-26-2006, 03:58 PM
It will be interesting to see what the Browns do in respecting our newly found running game. If we can get that going and the Browns have to try and stop that, Carr certainly can have a very good day.The Colts have a historically bad run defense so I wouldn't count on as easy a ride...I think our success had more to do with their very bad run d more so than our newly found run offense.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15520948/

But here's an even more telling stat: They allow 5.4 yards per rush attempt. That’s a full half-yard worse than the 31st team on the list, the Titans, and double the 2.7 yards per attempt yielded by the league’s No. 1 run defense in Baltimore.

But hang on to your nuggets, friends of the Cold, Hard Football Facts. There’s more to it that you just don’t know … yet.

The good folks at ESPN were kind enough recently to send a few copies of The ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia to the CHFF cardboard-box world headquarters, condemning us in the process to at least another year without sunlight or the scent of a woman.

The encyclopedia includes statistical data for every team in NFL history — including the number of yards each team allowed per rush attempt.

We wanted to find the last time a defense surrendered 5.4 yards per rush attempt, so we started flipping through the encyclopedia. And we flipped through page … after page … after page … after page. We didn’t stop until the calendar read 1961.

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 04:00 PM
An editorial from the Indy Star

The Texans' drive lasted 15 plays, went 51 yards, included a pair of third-down conversions, a fourth-down conversion and ate up -- get this -- 9 minutes, 29 seconds.

We're not talking about the Jacksonville Jaguars and Maurice Jones-Drew here. We're talking about the Houston Texans, one of the most punchless teams in the league with a rebuilt offensive line and a running back, Ron Dayne, who hadn't gone for 100 yards since 2001.

It looks now like last Monday was the aberration, and this game, and the games they've played at Dallas and Tennessee and Jacksonville, are the rule. Since that 9-0 start, the Colts are 2-4, and have lost four straight road games. They could come out next Sunday and beat Miami 41-0 in the season finale, and none of the doubts that have bubbled to the surface this past month will dissipate.

At least when the Colts implode in the playoffs this time around, you can't say you weren't warned.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061225/COLUMNISTS01/612250407/1100/SPORTS03

hollywood_texan
12-26-2006, 04:04 PM
The Colts have a historically bad run defense so I wouldn't count on as easy a ride...I think our success had more to do with their very bad run d more so than our newly found run offense.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15520948/

Exactly!

I have said this several times. The blueprint to beat the Colts was established several games ago. Scoring two TDs in the first two positions completely screwed up the Colts gameplan for their defense. The Colts need to get to a lead early to stay in control of the game.

Even though the Colts win was a good one, let's not get too excited about the Texans until they do the same against Cleveland.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 04:11 PM
The Colts have a historically bad run defense so I wouldn't count on as easy a ride...I think our success had more to do with their very bad run d more so than our newly found run offense.

Quote from noted source:

We wanted to find the last time a defense surrendered 5.4 yards per rush attempt, so we started flipping through the encyclopedia. And we flipped through page … after page … after page … after page. We didn’t stop until the calendar read 1961.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15520948/

simply WOW

Double Barrel
12-26-2006, 04:12 PM
The Colts are still an 11-4 team. Even though they possess one of the NFL's worst rush defenses, they've still managed to win 11 other NFL games with the same defense.

Give our boys a little credit. They played a good game and took advantage of the opponent's weaknesses, which every team in the NFL tries to exploit week in/week out.

I kinda' hope Indy wins it all this year, because then it's a mute point. ;)

Rightnow
12-26-2006, 04:12 PM
2003 - Games:11 Rating: 91.2 Record: 10-6

2004 - Games:16 Rating: 84.5 Record: 10-6

2005 - Games:16 Rating: 90.2 Record: 13-3

He works well with Kubiak, he knows the system, and he has a winning record with Kubiak. What else do you want? (Besides VY which you can't have so support the Texans if you are a fan.)

I think he is the best fit next year IF we trade Carr. He probably isn't a long term fix, but he could fill in while we groom someone.

Before you give everyone else on the Broncos credit for the wins, remember you can't have it both ways. You can't have the team being responsible in Denver, but Carr being responsible for the Texans. The two things, QB and team, must go together to win.

I don't know about you, but I'd take the above record for the next three years.

kenneth24
12-26-2006, 04:14 PM
They were who we thought they were! THE COLTS WERE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE! THE TEXANS DID THEIR JOB AND CROWNED THEIR *****E$!
I take the good times when I can get them! :redtowel: :party:

Double Barrel
12-26-2006, 04:14 PM
Why is he on the bench during Denver's playoff run if he's all that? :um:

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 04:18 PM
It all depends on the price and what other options we have. Jeff Garcia could be better at this point that Plummer. I don't see the draft as being all that great. so why not keep Carr and bring in a viable backup that could actually challenge Carr for the starting spot instead if being in a relegated backup role from the get go.

Rightnow
12-26-2006, 04:20 PM
Why is he on the bench during Denver's playoff run if he's all that? :um:

From what I understand he doesn't get along with the new offensive coordinator.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 04:25 PM
From what I understand he doesn't get along with the new offensive coordinator.

Yeah, his numbers werent that bad. I think the organization just wanted to make the move to the future and didn't think they had a legitimate chance at a CHAMPIONSHIP with Plummer as QB. They are trying to win a Super Bowl not just improve. They felt they had hit 'the ceiling' with Jake, and if indeed he had trouble with his new coaching post-Kubiak then that just fast tracked the inevitable move to Cutler.

Vinny
12-26-2006, 04:27 PM
Yeah, his numbers werent that bad. I think the organization just wanted to make the move to the future and didn't think they had a legitimate chance at a CHAMPIONSHIP with Plummer as QB. They are trying to win a Super Bowl not just improve. They felt they had hit 'the ceiling' with Jake, and if indeed he had trouble with his new coaching post-Kubiak then that just fast tracked the inevitable move to Cutler.Elway went to 5 Super Bowls and won at least 12 playoff games. Since Elway retired they have been to zero Super Bowls and have won 1 playoff game. I think the Broncos know first hand that a big time QB is what puts you over the top in the NFL when you have an above average team.

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 04:27 PM
The Colts have a historically bad run defense so I wouldn't count on as easy a ride...I think our success had more to do with their very bad run d more so than our newly found run offense.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15520948/

It's not just the Indy game that we've ran well. We've been running the ball consistantly the last four weeks. 2-2 in that time span with a overtime loss. I think we are starting to come around in the running game, all the while missing some key components of the offensive line. Dayne is averaging 4.8 a carry and over are getting over 100 yards consistantly from our running back group.

jdog
12-26-2006, 04:40 PM
2003 - Games:11 Rating: 91.2 Record: 10-6

2004 - Games:16 Rating: 84.5 Record: 10-6

2005 - Games:16 Rating: 90.2 Record: 13-3

He works well with Kubiak, he knows the system, and he has a winning record with Kubiak. What else do you want? (Besides VY which you can't have so support the Texans if you are a fan.)

I think he is the best fit next year IF we trade Carr. He probably isn't a long term fix, but he could fill in while we groom someone.

Before you give everyone else on the Broncos credit for the wins, remember you can't have it both ways. You can't have the team being responsible in Denver, but Carr being responsible for the Texans. The two things, QB and team, must go together to win.

I don't know about you, but I'd take the above record for the next three years.

I think your argument about not having it both ways makes no sense. Carr would probably do better in Denver under Kubiak than in Houston under Kubiak. While Plummer will probably not do as well in Houston under Kubiak as he did under Kubiak in Denver.

Why? Same reason they could plug in my mother at running back and make her a hot waiver wire pick up in fantasy foot ball leagues across the country. They have a line.

I don't think Plummer is terrible. If we had a terrible quarterback problem, he would be a nice upgrade, but I don't think we have that problem.

Ideally, we could use a better quarterback. If we are talking about Peyton Manning or Carson Palmer, there is no debate. Plummer is, well, a scrapped project.

If Carr decided to retire in the off season, I would be interested in Plummer. If our starting quarterback was...actually I can't think of many starting quarterbacks in the league right now that wouldn't be at least as good as Plummer.

Vinny
12-26-2006, 04:40 PM
It's not just the Indy game that we've ran well. We've been running the ball consistantly the last four weeks. 2-2 in that time span with a overtime loss. I think we are starting to come around in the running game, all the while missing some key components of the offensive line. Dayne is averaging 4.8 a carry and over are getting over 100 yards consistantly from our running back group.

I'd agree with that ses...we are running better and Winston has really come along the last few weeks.

jdog
12-26-2006, 04:52 PM
Yeah, his numbers werent that bad. I think the organization just wanted to make the move to the future and didn't think they had a legitimate chance at a CHAMPIONSHIP with Plummer as QB. They are trying to win a Super Bowl not just improve. They felt they had hit 'the ceiling' with Jake, and if indeed he had trouble with his new coaching post-Kubiak then that just fast tracked the inevitable move to Cutler.

If they don't feel like they have a chance at a championship with him, why would we feel like we had a chance at one with him? What are we working toward here? 8-8? I hope when they bring players into the organization they aren't thinking, "We have a shot at 8-8 with this feller."

real
12-26-2006, 04:54 PM
If they don't feel like they have a chance at a championship with him, why would we feel like we had a chance at one with him? What are we working toward here? 8-8? I hope when they bring players into the organization they aren't thinking, "We have a shot at 8-8 with this feller."

ya know....


That's an excellent point....

QB75
12-26-2006, 04:55 PM
I was thrilled with the team's win on Sunday and thought Carr played a good game. I don't want to be a killjoy, but here is an interesting piece from PFW, which cites a "source close to the club" as saying he is no better than a 50-50 chance to return to the Texans next year.

If he doesn't return, I wish him the best and hope he plays great on Sunday so his trade value increases. I trust Kubiak to make the right decision, and if he thinks the team will be better off with Plummer, that's fine with me.

http://profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+Way+We+Hear+It/default.htm

"Is David Carr about to play his final game in Houston?

Carr was the Texans’ first-ever draft choice, and he has started all but a handful of the franchise’s games. But the team might be readying to move on without him, the way we hear it.

Texans head coach Gary Kubiak has said that Carr’s status will be evaluated in the offseason, and a source close to the club suggests that Carr is no better than a 50-50 shot to return for a sixth season in Houston. The 27-year-old quarterback is scheduled to make $5.25 million in salary in 2007 and $6 million in ’08, and he could draw interest from other teams looking to pick up a talented veteran who might just need a change of scenery."

[snip]

If he plays well vs. Cleveland (he will, and it will be a big win) David will take the opening snap in 2007. Glad to see him looking better this late in the season, although it's being proven that it was the lack of a line and running game that was making him look bad.

SESupergenius
12-26-2006, 05:16 PM
I'd agree with that ses...we are running better and Winston has really come along the last few weeks.
Winston is the ugliest guy on the team. He really should be in the Gieco commercials. But that aside, he is doing a great job. And there isn't too much credit being spread around to Salaam for containing Freeney, who up to that point has been lights out against other teams.

Double Barrel
12-26-2006, 05:18 PM
Winston is the ugliest guy on the team.

They're all ugly, IMO. :tease:

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 05:36 PM
If they don't feel like they have a chance at a championship with him, why would we feel like we had a chance at one with him? What are we working toward here? 8-8? I hope when they bring players into the organization they aren't thinking, "We have a shot at 8-8 with this feller."

i wasn't making a case to grab Plummer. I personally think signing Plummer isn't in the best interests of the team. It may be a quick stop gap and may help us go 9-7 perhaps but still not championship material. I was merely stating that the Broncos have already come to terms that Plummer will not help them win a championship. His rumored issues with his OC only expedited the move to Cutler. The move was inevitable.

I sure hope they arent bringing players into the organization with the 'We have a shot at 8-8 with this feller' mindset. I feel pretty confident that Kubiak and Smith don't have that mindset adopted.

Porky
12-26-2006, 06:38 PM
Jeff Garcia isn't a pretty boy. Maybe that's the key. Let's just find the ugliest guy at each position, and see if that improves the team. It's not like pretty boy Carr has done anything. :tease:

jdog
12-26-2006, 06:53 PM
Jeff Garcia isn't a pretty boy. Maybe that's the key. Let's just find the ugliest guy at each position, and see if that improves the team. It's not like pretty boy Carr has done anything. :tease:
If you take a look at Manning and Sorgi, it becomes clear that the Colts are way ahead of you.

threetoedpete
12-26-2006, 09:22 PM
I see your point, but remember PFW is the leading trade publication of the NFL, and their access to credible sources within the NFL is second to none. This isn't a rumor that was published in ProFootballTalk.com, which I also enjoy. There is more substance to this, but I'm fully aware that this is all speculation at this point. Kubiak has said DC will be evaluated after the season is over, and I take him at his word.

PFW hasn't been more than fish wrap since Joel Bushbaum died. The interesting part is...They know it too. Look at their picks. It's a wonder the wise guys haven't wacked the Hubber yet. When a coin flip beats the "experts" time to find some new experts.

edo783
12-26-2006, 09:38 PM
Winston is the ugliest guy on the team. He really should be in the Gieco commercials. But that aside, he is doing a great job. And there isn't too much credit being spread around to Salaam for containing Freeney, who up to that point has been lights out against other teams.

Salaam has been........well extrodinary for who he is and where he is in his career. Did anyone actually expect that he would be an average NFL LT for us? I know I didn't. Winston looks like he is coming around. He is certainly above average at run blocking at this point, but a bit below average yet at pass blocking, but seems like he is improving. IMO, these guys playing better than expected and McKinny starting at center, caused the improved over all line play against the Colts.

t_flare
12-26-2006, 09:40 PM
what makes Plummer look so good? He will be going to a team with less talent than Denver and you expect him to produce more than what he did last year?

dat_boy_yec
12-26-2006, 09:41 PM
I wouldn't give any credence to what is said in this article. I think Kubiak will really vouch for Carr to stay here. This is his first season and as he's said he's had trouble sometime's comunicating things to Carr that he see's naturally. These things are part of a coach's maturation and Carr has done what's been asked of him. He's shown a lot of character and that's something Kubiak seems to value. Aside from the financial commitment to Carr the team has invested alot of faith in Carr and to not give him the chance to prove the investment worthwhile here won't send a good message to the rest of the players.

AggieTexan24
12-26-2006, 09:42 PM
how old is jake plummer?
i think we need a qb that is young and will be with the team for many years to come, not just a mediocre qb that will play for 2 years and then retire..

threetoedpete
12-26-2006, 09:44 PM
what makes Plummer look so good? He will be going to a team with less talent than Denver and you expect him to produce more than what he did last year?

Mind boggeling ain't it flare ? Nice post. Never mix up an agenda with reason on this board. You'll only be forced to start drinking heavily.

threetoedpete
12-26-2006, 09:48 PM
Salaam has been........well extrodinary for who he is and where he is in his career. Did anyone actually expect that he would be an average NFL LT for us? I know I didn't. Winston looks like he is coming around. He is certainly above average at run blocking at this point, but a bit below average yet at pass blocking, but seems like he is improving. IMO, these guys playing better than expected and McKinny starting at center, caused the improved over all line play against the Colts.

Agreed. He is our swing tackle. He is Not our Jon Ogden, Walter Jones, Orlando Pace. He IS the main back up to the starting Right and Left tackle.
Salaam's earned his oats in spades this season. He's my come back player of the year. Rep your way.

#Ocho
12-27-2006, 12:20 AM
but Plummer is a better fit for the Texans because his experience under Kubiak.I can't wait for Carr to slowly progress in the offense.

I really hope this comes about the way YOU want. I would be sure to make a comment about this to you next year as I laugh my ***** off. You haven't seen Plummer play very much have you?

I can't believe ANY of you would want Plummer. You must really hate Carr to wish THAT upon your team. hahahaha

Ibar_Harry
12-27-2006, 12:43 AM
What baffles me in all of these discussions is its like Carr has no input in what happens here. If the Texans decide to trade Carr he can say yea or nye. You could be facing a situation like McNair and Tennessee. I would think Carr would not go just anywhere.

bad
12-27-2006, 12:59 AM
...If the Texans decide to trade Carr he can say yea or nye...
Maybe he'll say yea if we bring him a shrubbery? Nothing too expensive, ya know.

:shades:

YoungTexanFan
12-27-2006, 01:07 AM
"If the Texans look to replace Carr, expect Broncos QB Jake Plummer’s name to bounce about the rumor mill, given Kubiak’s work with Plummer as Denver’s offensive coordinator."

I just can't put any credence into an article that has both "IF" and "RUMOR MILL" in the same sentence....

I would rather see Sage who understands he would be only a temporary QB and proved himself well this year than Plummer...that is IF we decide to dump Carr.

Ibar_Harry
12-27-2006, 01:32 AM
Maybe he'll say yea if we bring him a shrubbery? Nothing too expensive, ya know.

:shades:

My point is that Carr might not see what is best for the Texans as best for him. I'm just saying everyone is acting like the Texans are in the drivers seat on this one and I'm not so certain that is the case if they want something for David. If they don't care then they obviously cut David and he makes his own deal.

trutexan02
12-27-2006, 01:42 AM
Carr has a future here. His stats are better, he isn't making dumb decisions with the balls in his hands. He is not soley the blame for this season, even though when you step back and take a GOOD look at the season as a whole we are in a position to have the second best record in our teams existance. And anyone who reallys believes in one offseason we can go from here to championship.. I have only one piece of advice... "Stop drinking, you're killing the only valuable brain cells your Momma gave you!"
Kubes will build on what his has now at his disposal. Solidify the D and O lines. Playmakers are in place. We will be better next year and we will be a playoff team sooner than most think.

My prediction: We will be on the cusp of a playoffs next year.
and in the playoffs in 2008. :yes:

IMO of course.

Nighthawk
12-27-2006, 02:13 AM
I can't understand why everyone wants to say," Well he's been here for 5yrs and we still aren't winning with him." Do people forget who our coach was for the first 4 yrs. Dom Capers is a horrible coach and not offensive minded like Kubiak. So if Kubiak sees something in Carr I think he desreves another chance.


Here's a news flash for you and your two friends who apparently still believe David Carr is a reasonable choice as our QB. Capers is not "a horrible coach" though he may well be defense-minded.

Carr is, on the other hand, a proven known loser.

Texanfan4ever
12-27-2006, 02:19 AM
Carr has a future here. His stats are better, he isn't making dumb decisions with the balls in his hands. He is not soley the blame for this season, even though when you step back and take a GOOD look at the season as a whole we are in a position to have the second best record in our teams existance. And anyone who reallys believes in one offseason we can go from here to championship.. I have only one piece of advice... "Stop drinking, you're killing the only valuable brain cells your Momma gave you!"
Kubes will build on what his has now at his disposal. Solidify the D and O lines. Playmakers are in place. We will be better next year and we will be a playoff team sooner than most think.

My prediction: We will be on the cusp of a playoffs next year.
and in the playoffs in 2008. :yes:

IMO of course.


The voice of reason!!!! Thank God there is someone left that can put away the emotion and be logical and reasonable in their thinking.


I don't know if David is the one to take us anywhere or not. I have conceded recently that he might not be. BUT, at the very least , he is not our biggest problem.

All of that personal stuff aside, I don't think he is going anywhere. The media and the fans have hypyed this up and Kubes and co. will make their decision based on what they think is best for this franchise.

That said, if he doesn't play well against the Browns, it might be over. If he does, I think he stays, but they would never keep him here as a backup. More so than that, how could he ever stay here as a backup. Totally demeaning.

I personally want him to make it here. I always have. I am always for the underdog or the abused, so go figure. Back to homer status.

Go Texans and Go David.

Kaiser Toro
12-27-2006, 08:51 AM
Carr is having somewhere between his second and third best year statistically. What is alarming is that he has better protection and not posting better numbers based on incremental opportunity due to less sacks. His weaknesses are still there, his potential still lays dormant and our running game and defense gets better.

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/306268

Just a lousy contract extension by upper management.

thunderkyss
12-27-2006, 09:07 AM
I don't think the article says Carr has a lot of trade value, it just says he could draw interest. Even Joey Harrington got Detroit a 5th or 6th round pick, so I would think Carr would be worth something more than that. If we could get a 3rd or 4th for him, I would take it (if the team decides to go in another direction).


& what exactly makes David Carr more valuable than Harrington. If anything, we'd be lucky to get the same thing Detroit got for Joey.

the wonger need food
12-27-2006, 09:24 AM
Carr has a future here. His stats are better, he isn't making dumb decisions with the balls in his hands.

I guess you missed the Oakland game. And the first Tennessee game. And the Patriots game. And.... nevermind.

TheOgre
12-27-2006, 09:29 AM
I think we could get about a 4th rounder for him. He has better tangibles than Harrington. Some arrogant coach out there is convinced he can turn Carr around. I just hope he plays well in the Cleveland game to boost his stock.

TheOgre
12-27-2006, 09:36 AM
The Colts have a historically bad run defense so I wouldn't count on as easy a ride...I think our success had more to do with their very bad run d more so than our newly found run offense.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15520948/

I'd agree if Dayne hadn't shown consistency over a 4 week period. I like him as our backup RB or shared carries back for next year. We need someone with speed to take it all the way though. Whether that new guy is an all-purpose featured back or shares duties in "Thunder and Lightning II, The Resurrection of Dayne" has yet to be determined.

thunderkyss
12-27-2006, 10:51 AM
T-kyss, do you know something about Joey, that we don't know? I've been winning $$ betting Carr against Joey since they both hit the road running. This year is no different. I not going to bad mouth a Pro player, or nag about one. But I do bet against one pro against another. Have not lost betting on Carr in last 5yrs. Now Lemon looks like he got a shot replacing Joey. I hope not, hate to lose my cash cow. :yahoo:

Do you honestly think David would be doing better in Miami??

I don't.

eriadoc
12-27-2006, 12:41 PM
Here's a news flash for you and your two friends who apparently still believe David Carr is a reasonable choice as our QB. Capers is not "a horrible coach" though he may well be defense-minded.

Carr is, on the other hand, a proven known loser.

I don't know about the "horrible coach" moniker, but Capers is a proven known loser as well. Look at his record as a HC. Twist it any way you want, but Capers made some decisions that set this football team back a good three to four years and probably stunted Carr's growth as a QB to the point that he's not salvageable.

threetoedpete
12-27-2006, 03:20 PM
Here's a news flash for you and your two friends who apparently still believe David Carr is a reasonable choice as our QB. Capers is not "a horrible coach" though he may well be defense-minded.

Carr is, on the other hand, a proven known loser.

Make me three. I still believe he's a functioning viable option for his contract. Rather Uncle Bob roll away the stone...but...I think he's coming back after signs of life last sunday. Won't believe other wise untill Kubiak drives the stake though his heart and Uncle bob soaks the buy out check in garlic.

But you can certainly....

Keep Hope Alive !!!

CowboysTexansFan
12-27-2006, 03:23 PM
& what exactly makes David Carr more valuable than Harrington. If anything, we'd be lucky to get the same thing Detroit got for Joey.

Carr is much more physically talented than Harrington and has put up better career numbers, despite having to go to an expansion team. Yes, Detroit has imploded in recent years, but there's no question Harrington started his career under better circumstances (e.g., a better O-line) than Carr. David is also younger and has shown impressive durability despite the beating he's taken.

I stand behind my statement. Carr would bring more value in a trade than Harrington did. If you want to bet (assuming Carr is traded), I'm happy to take your action.

Keyser Soze
12-27-2006, 03:46 PM
Carr is having somewhere between his second and third best year statistically.

I'd be interested in seeing DC's passing yards after the YAC is subtracted. What % of his passes have been in the air 5 yards or less? How does that compare to other starting QBs?


What is alarming is that he has better protection and not posting better numbers based on incremental opportunity due to less sacks. His weaknesses are still there, his potential still lays dormant and our running game and defense gets better.


+1

dantem
12-27-2006, 03:58 PM
I can't believe you guys are so desperate to replace Carr that you are entertaining the Idea that JP is an upgrade... you've got to be kidding. Lets take another team's throw aways so that we can pay 8 million to let our QB go???????? and this when we have so many holes to fill on both sides of the ball.

What makes any of you think JP is worth his salary + 8 million?

jdog
12-27-2006, 04:57 PM
Dude, you need protection to throw the ball deep. Throwing short is good for us considering our line. If we had tried to throw deep as often as you'd like, our line would not have looked nearly as good as it did.

Keyser Soze
12-27-2006, 05:36 PM
Dude, you need protection to throw the ball deep.

Five yards is deep?

jdog
12-27-2006, 07:03 PM
Five yards is deep?

When you have two seconds to throw and people are bumping your receivers? Yes.

AustinJB
12-27-2006, 09:28 PM
T-kyss, yes I think Carr would do alot better. Joey put up a big goose egg for a pasing rating, then got pulled out the next game. This weekend he will be riding the pine, the lemon guy gets the start.

I have to agree w/ TK. No way Carr does any better, unless you call "dinking and dunking down the field, having happy feet all game, and still getting the loss" better.

I want Carr gone b/c I don't think he'll EVER be very good. If I thought he would turn into a great player, I'd still want to keep him. That seems to be the reason that Carr supporters want to keep him...they still have faith that he'll turn out good. I don't...I've seen enough...it just remains to be seen if Kubes has.

Number19
12-27-2006, 10:59 PM
Our short passing game was by Kubiak's design - his own admission. Our OL was not good enough to allow a 7 step drop.

threetoedpete
12-27-2006, 11:04 PM
Our short passing game was by Kubiak's design - his own admission. Our OL was not good enough to allow a 7 step drop.

Nice post. We had a coach come on and give a detailed discussion a while back on the splits of the o-lineman and what they were tring to accomplish. Basically, it was as you stated...they shortened the splits because of protection purposes.

But they never let the facts get in the way of a good whipping.


Keep Hope Alive.

thunderkyss
12-28-2006, 08:12 AM
T-kyss, yes I think Carr would do alot better. Joey put up a big goose egg for a pasing rating, then got pulled out the next game. This weekend he will be riding the pine, the lemon guy gets the start.

how is this different that what David has done here??

Tennessee....... Oakland..... New England.... hellooooo McFly.....

Rightnow
12-28-2006, 09:15 AM
I think that if the right opportunity comes along Carr might take it. A good example would have been Baltimore. Steve McNair is past his prime, but he is good enough to lead them into the playoffs and maybe the super bowl. McNair's only been sacked a couple of times in the last few weeks. Carr could have gone there and done just fine.

I can't think of an example like that this year, but I know they are out there.

thunderkyss
12-28-2006, 09:47 AM
I think that if the right opportunity comes along Carr might take it. A good example would have been Baltimore. Steve McNair is past his prime, but he is good enough to lead them into the playoffs and maybe the super bowl. McNair's only been sacked a couple of times in the last few weeks. Carr could have gone there and done just fine.

I can't think of an example like that this year, but I know they are out there.

It's funny how you mention Baltimore as a place where a pedestrian QB could succeed..... but they wanted anything but. They wanted, and were excited when they got a playmaker........ a guy who takes the pressure off the Defense, because they know they can win, even if they don't pitch a shutout.

Keyser Soze
12-28-2006, 11:18 AM
But they never let the facts get in the way of a good whipping.


If you think Carr's problems lie strictly with the o-line, go ahead. I will respectfully disagree.

jdog
12-28-2006, 12:10 PM
I don't think Carr's problems lie strictly with the pass protection, but I think it is a major factor. Most, not all, of the complaints against Carr relate to the line. He has happy feet. He doesn't throw deep. He doesn't make reads. I think these issues clearly relate to pass protection.

In the Colts game last weekend, Carr had a few plays where he missed an open receiver or threw to someone that was not in the best available postion to make something happen. However, he got rid of the ball. Threw it out of bounds. He is trying to be careful, which is good, and deal with poor pass protection.

If he tries to deal with poor pass protection while trying to make the big play, he increases the chances of throwing an interception or being sacked.

If he had good pass protection and threw the ball away when someone was open or didn't throw to the best target available, we would have a gripe.

As I see it, David Carr is progressing under Gary Kubiak by learning to quickly find a target or get rid of the ball. When we have dependable pass protection, Carr will be expected to progress in his reads, and we'll have more deep balls.