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View Full Version : Sage Rosenfels a candidate for Starting QB Job in 2007


Minotaur
12-23-2006, 10:32 AM
Sage Rosenfels may get the nod next season as the Texans' starting QB, pending the names they've been dangling around.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=1276

WildBlackBear32
12-23-2006, 11:18 AM
They are not sure Jake Plummer would be an upgrade over Rosenfels??? I can't take that seriously...

Sportsfan
12-23-2006, 11:23 AM
Thats what i'm hoping for.

Minotaur
12-23-2006, 12:19 PM
They are not sure Jake Plummer would be an upgrade over Rosenfels??? I can't take that seriously...

Jake Plummer would come here because of Gary Kubiak. However, I feel Plummer would be a better backup. Plummer is interception-happy. Rosenfels is the better QB, IMO.

MrMeToo
12-23-2006, 12:19 PM
Regretfully so...It's sad that Sage Rosenfels is way better than our 1st string QB.

OrangeCountyTexansFan
12-23-2006, 12:36 PM
I'd like to see him play the whole game on Sunday, since we're talking about it. But of course, that won't happen...*sigh!:shrug: *

Austrian
12-23-2006, 01:05 PM
I'd like to see him play the whole game on Sunday, since we're talking about it. But of course, that won't happen...*sigh!:shrug: *


Probably because he is injured.:secret:

Sportsfan
12-23-2006, 03:01 PM
I'd like to see him play the whole game on Sunday, since we're talking about it. But of course, that won't happen...*sigh!:shrug: *

Dude! He is on IR, out for the season, broken hand, can't play!

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2006, 03:06 PM
Regretfully so...It's sad that Sage Rosenfels is way better than our 1st string QB.

Based on what?? Why do people see Sage through rose coloured glasses?? :brickwall

Remeber this is the guy that coudn't beat out Gus Frerrotte in Miami and made that organisation think the footballer formally known as Culpepper would be an upgrade too.

Sure I am for letting him compete for the job, heck allow all comers a shot at the job so we get the best player available to do the job, but lets not go and crown the court jester.

GuerillaBlack
12-23-2006, 03:09 PM
Plummer thrived with Kubiak in Denver. Having Plummer, Sage, and Kolb or Smith would be okay, I guess.

TexanFan881
12-23-2006, 03:30 PM
Based on what?? Why do people see Sage through rose coloured glasses?? :brickwall

Maybe because against the Titans he came in for David Carr and threw 3 TDs in less than half a game and we almost came back and won. I don't think that David Carr has thrown for 3 TDs in a game this year, much less a half.

Ryan
12-23-2006, 03:55 PM
do u think sage will get some action in tomorrows game?

hot pickle
12-23-2006, 04:03 PM
do u think sage will get some action in tomorrows game?

oh god how many times do people have to say this

HES ON IR
but i like sage when he played in the titans game i like the way he looks in the pocket, he looks for confortable then david carr, and his throwin motion looks better to

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2006, 04:06 PM
Maybe because against the Titans he came in for David Carr and threw 3 TDs in less than half a game and we almost came back and won. I don't think that David Carr has thrown for 3 TDs in a game this year, much less a half.

Perhaps that was because they were already down by a ton and the Titans were playing soft prevent defense. Look at your sample size there. Its like saying I saw a guy who ran for 25 yards in the last 5 minutes of a game and then expecting him to run for 300 yards every week.

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2006, 04:08 PM
oh god how many times do people have to say this

HES ON IR
but i like sage when he played in the titans game i like the way he looks in the pocket, he looks for confortable then david carr, and his throwin motion looks better to

Don't waste your breath, Dunta23, some people just don't read the other posts.... or pay attention to what is happening with the team...

BTW, when does P-Buc get back on the field :hides:

shinerbock_girl
12-23-2006, 04:09 PM
Sage Rosenfels may get the nod next season as the Texans' starting QB, pending the names they've been dangling around.

http://www.rotoworld.com/content/playerpages/player_main.aspx?sport=NFL&id=1276

Thats what i want....The guy deserves a chance.

Andrew6
12-23-2006, 04:09 PM
I never saw him play in Miami how did he do there? he seems to be similar to DC in the fact he doesn't go deep and loves little short passes, to safe i guess

threetoedpete
12-23-2006, 04:16 PM
Regretfully so...It's sad that Sage Rosenfels is way better than our 1st string QB.

248 sacks and counting. It's not surprizing at all.

Minotaur
12-23-2006, 04:17 PM
Based on what?? Why do people see Sage through rose coloured glasses?? :brickwall

Remeber this is the guy that coudn't beat out Gus Frerrotte in Miami and made that organisation think the footballer formally known as Culpepper would be an upgrade too.

Sure I am for letting him compete for the job, heck allow all comers a shot at the job so we get the best player available to do the job, but lets not go and crown the court jester.

Gus Frerotte was the Dolphins' "pretty boy". In other words, "I play, and no one else does, regardless." The Phins lost faith in Feeley, so Frerotte got the nod. In 2004, Feeley was benched in favor of Rosenfels. He threw for four touchdowns, and filled in for Jay Fiedler when he was injured, throwing a touchdown in a three-season span.

Andrew6
12-23-2006, 04:22 PM
well I know that Plummer was sat for a reason. I am not sure I want another Incompetant QB. I also don't want to be referred to as the Bronco II's or the Houston Broncos. Kubiak i know you're from Denver but you're in Texas now lets do something here and start a new

TexanFan881
12-23-2006, 04:25 PM
Perhaps that was because they were already down by a ton and the Titans were playing soft prevent defense. Look at your sample size there. Its like saying I saw a guy who ran for 25 yards in the last 5 minutes of a game and then expecting him to run for 300 yards every week.

They're not going to stop trying even if they have a 20 point lead. Look at the Patriots last week, they didn't stop trying after they were up by 21, they kept going and scored 40 points. Against the Titans it's not like they were down by 20 and we only scored once, Sage scored 3 times. You're telling me they weren't trying at all from the point we were done by a ton to the point that we were only down by 6?

And I know it's only a "small sample" size of action, but what else makes you believe that he can't be better than David or Plummer or whoever we bring in? Last year in Miami? There hasn't been any proof that he can't do a better job. And if you want to say that he hasn't been good in the past I don't think that is any kind of proof, look at Jeff Garcia this year. He has never been that good but look what he's doing in Philly right now. Until he gets out there and fumbles the ball three times in a game our throws two interceptions in the first quarter and four in a game, I don't see any reason to believe he can't be a decent starter for us.

Ryan
12-23-2006, 04:40 PM
oh god how many times do people have to say this

HES ON IR
but i like sage when he played in the titans game i like the way he looks in the pocket, he looks for confortable then david carr, and his throwin motion looks better to

oh **** i went brain dead sorry about that..i knew that

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2006, 05:09 PM
And if you want to say that he hasn't been good in the past I don't think that is any kind of proof, look at Jeff Garcia this year. He has never been that good but look what he's doing in Philly right now.

You are talking about the same Garcia who has been to 3 pro bowls aren't you??? Not good/been to 3 pro bowls.... man I wish Carr was that poorly performed.... is there any other gems you want to bring to the table??

Garcia Career Stats
Passing Rushing Fumb.
Year Team G Comp Att Pct. Yds TD Int
2000 SF 16 355 561 63.3 4278 31 10
2001 SF 16 316 504 62.7 3538 32 12
2002 SF 16 328 528 62.1 3344 21 10
2003 SF 13 225 392 57.4 2704 18 13

Here are Rosenfels for comparison

Career Stats
Year Team G Comp Att Pct. Yds TD INT
2002 MIA 2 0 3 0.0 0 0 1
2003 MIA 2 4 6 66.7 50 1 0
2004 MIA 3 16 39 41.0 264 1 3
2005 MIA 4 34 61 55.7 462 4 3

Way to compare apples with apples.

Minotaur
12-23-2006, 05:12 PM
You are talking about the same Garcia who has been to 3 pro bowls aren't you??? Not good/been to 3 pro bowls.... man I wish Carr was that poorly performed.... is there any other gems you want to bring to the table??

Garcia Career Stats
Passing Rushing Fumb.
Year Team G Comp Att Pct. Yds TD Int
2000 SF 16 355 561 63.3 4278 31 10
2001 SF 16 316 504 62.7 3538 32 12
2002 SF 16 328 528 62.1 3344 21 10
2003 SF 13 225 392 57.4 2704 18 13

Here are Rosenfels for comparison

Career Stats
Year Team G Comp Att Pct. Yds TD INT
2002 MIA 2 0 3 0.0 0 0 1
2003 MIA 2 4 6 66.7 50 1 0
2004 MIA 3 16 39 41.0 264 1 3
2005 MIA 4 34 61 55.7 462 4 3

Way to compare apples with apples.

Garcia is way better, but Rosenfels is/will be better than Carr

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2006, 05:14 PM
Garcia is way better, but Rosenfels is/will be better than Carr

Can you give me some proof to that?? that is all I ask, I could sy Porter is actually the answer and he will be better than Joe Montana but what is my evidence?

shinerbock_girl
12-23-2006, 05:17 PM
I never saw him play in Miami how did he do there? he seems to be similar to DC in the fact he doesn't go deep and loves little short passes, to safe i guess

He was a Back up in Miami...Seems when he did come into the game, he actually made several come backs to win the game when they were down...Like he almost did when Carr was benched for the first Titans game...Look at the guys stats just the short time he was in for Carr...I think he deserves a chance, at least for a whole game to see how he does...

Minotaur
12-23-2006, 05:22 PM
Can you give me some proof to that?? that is all I ask, I could say Porter is actually the answer and he will be better than Joe Montana but what is my evidence?

Garcia moves around in the pocket, while Rosenfels is strictly a pocket passer. Consider:

Rosenfels:
81/148, 1041 yards, 9 TD, 7 INT, 77.6 rating
Experience: 6
GS: 2

Garcia:
1795/2947, 20118 yards, 135 TD, 72 INT, 86.4 rating
Experience: 8
GS: 90

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2006, 06:06 PM
One of the things that make me wonder about Rosenfels is that he has been in the league 6 years on teams with questionable quarterback situations and he has never won the starters job. 6 years is a pretty decent time to prve yourself in practice.

thunderkyss
12-23-2006, 06:09 PM
One of the things that make me wonder about Rosenfels is that he has been in the league 6 years on teams with questionable quarterback situations and he has never won the starters job. 6 years is a pretty decent time to prve yourself in practice.

Yeah....... kinda sound like Jake Delhomme, or Kurt Warner......

joeton
12-23-2006, 06:17 PM
I thought that this season would be better for David. I had my hopes up that he would do great. I still think that the O-line needs some work. Not to mention that a good deal of them are injured. I still would have loved to see David do great. Anyway, I don't mind who they make the starter, just as long as we have more than four wins next season. I will actually be in Texas to go to some games next year. I would also like to see Wali play more. I think that he will end up being a good pick for us, I hope that they play him more next year. I don't know if I would release David, maybe trade him for a rather decent WR coach. I don't know though.

kiwitexansfan
12-23-2006, 06:17 PM
Yeah....... kinda sound like Jake Delhomme, or Kurt Warner......

Kurt Warner started his second year and threw 41 TD's

I'll give you Delhomme it was his 6th year.... but he was highly regarded in the Matt Schaub mould.... Sage not so much

mganz
12-23-2006, 08:42 PM
Did I miss something? Has it been decided that Carr is gone next year? I have not heard that, but i've been working the last few days.

Minotaur
12-23-2006, 08:50 PM
Did I miss something? Has it been decided that Carr is gone next year? I have not heard that, but i've been working the last few days.

Not quite. Just a rumor right now.

mganz
12-23-2006, 09:57 PM
Not quite. Just a rumor right now.

ok, thanks

kenneth24
12-23-2006, 10:14 PM
IF its Plummer or Sage, I'd prefer Sage with a rookie in waiting IF Carr is traded or released.

I think we should give Dave Ragone a chance! He was great in Europe! ACTIVATE RAGONE! ACTIVATE RAGONE! :hides:

jayjordan
12-24-2006, 12:46 AM
Sage would be a good start to a better offense I think. Hey lets start a "Rosenfels for QB" campaign

Minotaur
12-24-2006, 07:14 AM
IF its Plummer or Sage, I'd prefer Sage with a rookie in waiting IF Carr is traded or released.

I think we should give Dave Ragone a chance! He was great in Europe! ACTIVATE RAGONE! ACTIVATE RAGONE! :hides:


Ragone is a Free Agent, I believe

Sportsfan
12-24-2006, 08:04 AM
Ragone is a Free Agent, I believe

Ragone would be an excellent candidate for your starting QB next year.

Sincerely,

Charlie Casserly

Sportsfan
02-08-2007, 12:58 PM
Just heard reported this morning that the Bears and Vikings are talking to Jeff Garcia. I doubt he'd come here anyway.

shinerbock_girl
02-08-2007, 01:05 PM
Regretfully so...It's sad that Sage Rosenfels is way better than our 1st string QB.

Well i like Sage as well, but we can't really say he's better then Carr since he hasn't proven himself playing a whole game....

TexansTrueFan
02-08-2007, 01:31 PM
Garcia is way better, but Rosenfels is/will be better than Carr

Hmmm i dunno how you get that. Sure he hasnt been given the opportunity to start and prove he may be better than Carr, but you cant just assume he will be better, plus there is no evidence to support that. ^^^^ As most agree.

hollywood_texan
02-08-2007, 01:49 PM
Plummer probably would be an upgrade from Rosenfels or Carr in the short term.

However, the price tage of Plummer, taking into consideration Carr's dead money, if any, makes the price of ownership impractacle.

A very good example similar to this situation is Reggie Bush, any team in the league would want Reggie Bush on their roster. However, paying $50+ million for his services just doesn't make sense.

Same here with Carr and/or bringing in a high priced vet. The numbers don't work from a finanical perspective and cap management.

Probably the best route is to give Rosenfels the shot to start if Kubiak likes what he has seen so far and bring in a rookie or some cheap guy with talent to groom as backup and/or competition.

Besides, if Kubiak is such a great QB coach and an offensive mind, we should be able to do get by with Rosenfels for next season and still improve as a team.

The goal next season is to get to 10 wins but not mortgage the team's future in doing so. That is why Plummer is not a good idea! He is a short-term fix but causing problems in the long-term.

bah007
02-08-2007, 02:07 PM
Garcia is way better, but Rosenfels is/will be better than Carr

If Sage was better than Carr then he would be on the field. That's a fact.

Kubiak wouldn't keep playing Carr if Sage was killin it on the practice field.

There is no logical arguement that you can make to help prove that Sage is better.

He has been in the league one year longer than Carr, but Carr has wayyy more experience. Sage has only played in 17 games in his career. Carr has started 75.

There are no stats that prove that Sage is better.

Could he possibly be better? Of course. But what do you know about him that makes you so sure that he is better than Carr?

The Pencil Neck
02-08-2007, 05:06 PM
If Sage was better than Carr then he would be on the field. That's a fact.

Kubiak wouldn't keep playing Carr if Sage was killin it on the practice field.


This gets back to something I've said before and that makes a lot of sense to me. Because of all the damage that he's taken, I think Carr is the kind of player that looks GREAT in practice and then falls apart in the games. When he knows he's not going to take the shot, his mechanics are good and he makes the right reads and can make all the throws. But you get him in a situation where he thinks he's going to start taking shots, and everything goes to hell.

Carr probably looks like the next coming of John Elway in practice but come Sunday, he looks like an inexperienced backup.

Without the injury, I think Sage would have been starting the last few games this past season.

thunderkyss
02-08-2007, 08:43 PM
If Sage was better than Carr then he would be on the field. That's a fact.

Kubiak wouldn't keep playing Carr if Sage was killin it on the practice field.

There is no logical arguement that you can make to help prove that Sage is better.

He has been in the league one year longer than Carr, but Carr has wayyy more experience. Sage has only played in 17 games in his career. Carr has started 75.

There are no stats that prove that Sage is better.

Could he possibly be better? Of course. But what do you know about him that makes you so sure that he is better than Carr?

David's fumbles/Ints.....
Philly 0 fumbles 0 Ints
Indy 3 fumbles(2 lost)/ 0 Ints
Was 3 fumbles(2 lost)/ 1 Int
Mia 2 fumbles(1 lost)/ 1 Int
Dallas 0 fumbles/ 2 Ints
Jax 0 fumbles/0 Ints
Ten 2 fumbles(2 lost)/1 Int
NYG 0 fumbles/0 Int
Jax 0 fumbles/ 0 Int
Buf 1 fumble/1 Int
NYJ 0 fumbles/1 Int
Oak 3 fumbles(2 lost)/ 0 Int
Ten 0 fumbles/ 0 Int
NE 1 fumble(1 lost)/4 Int
Indy 0 fumble/0 Int
Clev 1 fumble(1 lost)/1 Int



How bad does it have to get before it's worth a shot to try the other guy??

I guarantee you the guy's hands were tied. Nobody in their right mind would have kept sending him out there time after time, after time....... after time.

NATHANHALE
02-08-2007, 08:47 PM
Hmmm i dunno how you get that. Sure he hasnt been given the opportunity to start and prove he may be better than Carr, but you cant just assume he will be better, plus there is no evidence to support that. ^^^^ As most agree.


...assume/evidence/most agree??...sounds good to me--why don't you get us started?

petedy
02-08-2007, 09:15 PM
I think Carr will be gone by the end of the month and Plummer will come in and Sage will remain a back-up like he was at Miami.When they repeat their 6-10 season or worst people will question why did they release David Carr?

GNTLEWOLF
02-09-2007, 04:27 AM
I think Carr will be gone by the end of the month and Plummer will come in and Sage will remain a back-up like he was at Miami.When they repeat their 6-10 season or worst people will question why did they release David Carr?

I think you are very likely right. And nobody here will be happy with Plummer. It will be like Denver all over again for him. However, I also think that the climate in Houston may be too hostile for Carr and He probably needs to go somewhere else to get a fresh start. My only regret is that we never got a chance to see what he could do behind a decent o-line. Maybe the next Houston QB will get one. If not, people will be lamenting DC's departure for sure.

shinerbock_girl
02-09-2007, 02:18 PM
I wonder, if Carr does go somewheres else and he does fantastic, will ppl admit maybe it wasn't Carr that was the problem, but our o-line?? Personally i think its the total package...Not just Carr...But since he's already lost his confidence to the max, he would have a better chance elsewhere to redeem himself then if he stayed here.

Arky
02-09-2007, 03:11 PM
David's fumbles/Ints.....
Philly 0 fumbles 0 Ints
Indy 3 fumbles(2 lost)/ 0 Ints
Was 3 fumbles(2 lost)/ 1 Int
Mia 2 fumbles(1 lost)/ 1 Int
Dallas 0 fumbles/ 2 Ints
Jax 0 fumbles/0 Ints
Ten 2 fumbles(2 lost)/1 Int
NYG 0 fumbles/0 Int
Jax 0 fumbles/ 0 Int
Buf 1 fumble/1 Int
NYJ 0 fumbles/1 Int
Oak 3 fumbles(2 lost)/ 0 Int
Ten 0 fumbles/ 0 Int
NE 1 fumble(1 lost)/4 Int
Indy 0 fumble/0 Int
Clev 1 fumble(1 lost)/1 Int



How bad does it have to get before it's worth a shot to try the other guy??

I guarantee you the guy's hands were tied. Nobody in their right mind would have kept sending him out there time after time, after time....... after time.

Got a link for those stats?

I'm not getting the same results at all. For example, the Cleveland game, I'm not seeing where we lost a fumble. IIRC, it occured on the handoff to Chris Taylor but Taylor recovered it. David Carr was charged with the fumble but it was not a lost fumble.

I'm seeing the same for the NE game - no lost fumbles.. just the 4 INT's..

The Pencil Neck
02-09-2007, 05:20 PM
Got a link for those stats?

I'm not getting the same results at all. For example, the Cleveland game, I'm not seeing where we lost a fumble. IIRC, it occured on the handoff to Chris Taylor but Taylor recovered it. David Carr was charged with the fumble but it was not a lost fumble.

I'm seeing the same for the NE game - no lost fumbles.. just the 4 INT's..

Actually, here's what I see

Team Fumbles/Lost - Interceptions
Eagles 0/0 - 0
Colts 3/1 - 0
Skins 3/1 - 1
Fins 1/1 - 1
Cowboys 0/0 - 2
Jags 0/0 - 0
Titans 2/2 - 1
Giants 0/0 - 0
Jags 0/0 - 0
Bills 1/0 - 1
Jets 0/0 - 1
Raiders 3/2 - 0
Titans 0/0 - 0
Pats 1/0 - 4
Colts 0/0 - 0
Browns 1/0 - 1

bah007
02-09-2007, 05:24 PM
Actually, here's what I see

Team Fumbles/Lost - Interceptions
Eagles 0/0 - 0
Colts 3/1 - 0
Skins 3/1 - 1
Fins 1/1 - 1
Cowboys 0/0 - 2
Jags 0/0 - 0
Titans 2/2 - 1
Giants 0/0 - 0
Jags 0/0 - 0
Bills 1/0 - 1
Jets 0/0 - 1
Raiders 3/2 - 0
Titans 0/0 - 0
Pats 1/0 - 4
Colts 0/0 - 0
Browns 1/0 - 1

Where's your link?

That's a big difference in numbers (4 lost fumbles).

TwinSisters
02-09-2007, 05:27 PM
Actually, here's what I see

Team Fumbles/Lost - Interceptions
Eagles 0/0 - 0
Colts 3/1 - 0
Skins 3/1 - 1
Fins 1/1 - 1
Cowboys 0/0 - 2
Jags 0/0 - 0
Titans 2/2 - 1
Giants 0/0 - 0
Jags 0/0 - 0
Bills 1/0 - 1
Jets 0/0 - 1
Raiders 3/2 - 0
Titans 0/0 - 0
Pats 1/0 - 4
Colts 0/0 - 0
Browns 1/0 - 1

these don't match up to the NFL stats at NFL.com

or let me look again:
Carr was charged with 16 fumbles 7 lost 5 own recovered

ugh! it's like High School

Carson Palmer 15 fumbles 7 lost
Jon Kitna 11 and 9
for comparison

bah007
02-09-2007, 05:44 PM
these don't match up to the NFL stats at NFL.com

or let me look again:
Carr was charged with 16 fumbles 7 lost 5 own recovered

ugh! it's like High School

Carson Palmer 15 fumbles 7 lost
Jon Kitna 11 and 9
for comparison

Carr's fumbles are not way higher than that of any other QB's last year.

The problem is that his fumbles came in bunches. He would go two games without one & then bust out 3 in one quarter of the next game.

TwinSisters
02-09-2007, 05:58 PM
Carr's fumbles are not way higher than that of any other QB's last year.

The problem is that his fumbles came in bunches. He would go two games without one & then bust out 3 in one quarter of the next game.

yeah, I agree. 10 fumbles in a season looks like the avg or bar. Most of the elite QBs have single digit fumbles.

BUT there are factors that you cannot always account for... like snap calls, new centers, injuries to hand, weather, dumb RBs, and so forth.

The record for fumbles in a season is 23.

Arky
02-09-2007, 06:22 PM
yeah, I agree. 10 fumbles in a season looks like the avg or bar. Most of the elite QBs have single digit fumbles.

BUT there are factors that you cannot always account for... like snap calls, new centers, injuries to hand, weather, dumb RBs, and so forth.

The record for fumbles in a season is 23.

Ya, not sure if this link will work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5887

I just heard Rich Lord on 610SR exclaim for about the 19th time "66 fumbles in 76 games!" (career fumbles)

What he doesn't tell you is that only 21 were actually turnovers (Fumbles Lost). Over 5 years, that's roughly 4/year or 1 every 4 games. 1 Turnover every 4 games due to a bad exchange from center, bad handoff, QB getting hit and/or stripped, QB coughing up the ball.... That's really not that bad considering some QB's throw 20+ INT's every year... DC is really not one of those high INT's guys...

Fumbles are not good but Fumbles Lost (turnovers) are the real killer....

The Pencil Neck
02-09-2007, 06:48 PM
Where's your link?

That's a big difference in numbers (4 lost fumbles).

I went through the games one by one on NFL.com.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/stats/HOU/2006/regular

thunderkyss
02-09-2007, 08:07 PM
Ya, not sure if this link will work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5887

I just heard Rich Lord on 610SR exclaim for about the 19th time "66 fumbles in 76 games!" (career fumbles)

What he doesn't tell you is that only 21 were actually turnovers (Fumbles Lost). Over 5 years, that's roughly 4/year or 1 every 4 games. 1 Turnover every 4 games due to a bad exchange from center, bad handoff, QB getting hit and/or stripped, QB coughing up the ball.... That's really not that bad considering some QB's throw 20+ INT's every year... DC is really not one of those high INT's guys...

Fumbles are not good but Fumbles Lost (turnovers) are the real killer....

I'll admit that my method of counting the fumbles......... fumbles loss was not very accurate(after reading some of these posts, and looking over the issue again on NFL.com.)....

However, "That's really not that bad??"

:ok:

QB75
02-09-2007, 08:14 PM
Ya, not sure if this link will work...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5887

I just heard Rich Lord on 610SR exclaim for about the 19th time "66 fumbles in 76 games!" (career fumbles)

What he doesn't tell you is that only 21 were actually turnovers (Fumbles Lost). Over 5 years, that's roughly 4/year or 1 every 4 games. 1 Turnover every 4 games due to a bad exchange from center, bad handoff, QB getting hit and/or stripped, QB coughing up the ball.... That's really not that bad considering some QB's throw 20+ INT's every year... DC is really not one of those high INT's guys...

Fumbles are not good but Fumbles Lost (turnovers) are the real killer....

Rich Lord rarely knows what he's talking about. :loser

thunderkyss
02-09-2007, 09:12 PM
Rich Lord rarely knows what he's talking about. :loser

even if they aren't loss, they are still wasted plays, so they still need to be accounted for.

bah007
02-09-2007, 09:27 PM
even if they aren't loss, they are still wasted plays, so they still need to be accounted for.

I think his point is that not all those fumbles are the QB's fault tho.

A bad snap by the Center counts as a fumble by the QB.

A botched handoff with the RB counts as a fumble by the QB, even if it is not his fault.

old football fan
02-09-2007, 09:57 PM
Stats really have to be taken with a grain of salt. Example: QB passes the ball hitting the receiver perfectlybut the receiver dosen't make the catch and ball pops into the air and is intercepted. Who's at fault? QB throws or gets the INT. So QB gets bad stat when he actually made a perfact play. So don't go for the stats all the time because they are a grey area.

Arky
02-09-2007, 11:25 PM
However, "That's really not that bad??"

:ok:

Well, yes, an average of 4 Lost Fumbles/year from the QB position is not *that* bad. Zero would be better, of course.

And you're correct that the QB fumbles that aren't turnovers are really good for nothing - like usually some negative yardage (ball recovered in the backfield, QB falls on bad snap, etc.).... Too many of those....

Howevah, considering our team (QB + teammates) has probably set an NFL record for most sacks in a 5 year period, these QB fumble numbers seem to fit and are not that surprising....

old football fan: Yes, stats are kind of a gray area but they can help to see trends - a grain of salt is right....

The Pencil Neck
02-10-2007, 01:14 AM
Howevah, considering our team (QB + teammates) has probably set an NFL record for most sacks in a 5 year period, these QB fumble numbers seem to fit and are not that surprising....


I think we're like 3rd worst for sacks over a 5 year period. Cunningham and the Eagles were the worst.

I could be wrong about that but I thought I saw that during one of the games.

TwinSisters
02-10-2007, 02:24 AM
I think we're like 3rd worst for sacks over a 5 year period. Cunningham and the Eagles were the worst.

I could be wrong about that but I thought I saw that during one of the games.

The thing about Cunningham ( and the stat for sacks ) is that he would get charged with a sack when it is actually a tackle for a loss. It's subtle and nitpicking, but important I think.

On the fumble issue itself:
I agree with almost everything said, but I have to add that there is a fumble due to a hit and then there is a fumble due to nothing but the QB failing to secure the ball: See Jon Kitna.

HJam72
02-10-2007, 06:17 AM
The thing about fumbles is that sometimes the other team gets the ball. :drunk:

PS-Me doing a Madden impression.

The Pencil Neck
02-10-2007, 03:03 PM
The thing about fumbles is that sometimes the other team gets the ball. :drunk:

PS-Me doing a Madden impression.

Even worse, sometimes they pick the ball up and run it in for a TD. I can remember 2 times offhand where Carr fumbled and the opposing team picked it up and ran it in (1 time against the Titans and 1 time against the Raiders.)

Arky
02-11-2007, 01:49 AM
Even worse, sometimes they pick the ball up and run it in for a TD. I can remember 2 times offhand where Carr fumbled and the opposing team picked it up and ran it in (1 time against the Titans and 1 time against the Raiders.)

Yep, the quarterback had some tough games with and without the help of his teammates. He also had some good games...

You were right about Randall Cunningham and the Eagles sack totals being larger than the Texans over a 5-year period.

This is interesting. Ugly QB stats:

David Carr (2002-2006 Texans)
Games played - 76
Sacked - 249
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 66/21
Interceptions - 65

Randall Cunningham (1986-1990 Eagles)
Games played - 75
Sacked - 277
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 57/unknown
Interceptions - 63

Just for fun, I looked up Daunte Culpepper and Jake Plummer:

Daunte Culpepper (2000-2004 Vikings, limited action in 2005 & 2006)
Games played - 73
Sacked - 197
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 72/31
Interceptions - 74

Jake Plummer (1997-2001, Cardinals, start of career)
Games played - 68
Sacked - 179
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 40/18
Interceptions - 94

I can furnish links if necessary - most stats came from www.sports.yahoo.com and Cunningham's came from www.databasefootball.com
ESPN stats were different in the Fumbles category - they call them "rushing" fumbles and are different (and smaller) numbers...

(my apologies to the thread starter for getting off topic)

SamuraiSword
02-11-2007, 11:48 AM
Rich Lord rarely knows what he's talking about. :loser

wow any radio person that is against Carr you call them something. Just maybe they might be right? :bubble:

old football fan
02-11-2007, 01:08 PM
Yep, the quarterback had some tough games with and without the help of his teammates. He also had some good games...

You were right about Randall Cunningham and the Eagles sack totals being larger than the Texans over a 5-year period.

This is interesting. Ugly QB stats:

David Carr (2002-2006 Texans)
Games played - 76
Sacked - 249
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 66/21
Interceptions - 65

Randall Cunningham (1986-1990 Eagles)
Games played - 75
Sacked - 277
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 57/unknown
Interceptions - 63

Just for fun, I looked up Daunte Culpepper and Jake Plummer:

Daunte Culpepper (2000-2004 Vikings, limited action in 2005 & 2006)
Games played - 73
Sacked - 197
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 72/31
Interceptions - 74

Jake Plummer (1997-2001, Cardinals, start of career)
Games played - 68
Sacked - 179
Fumbles/Fumbles Lost - 40/18
Interceptions - 94

I can furnish links if necessary - most stats came from www.sports.yahoo.com and Cunningham's came from www.databasefootball.com
ESPN stats were different in the Fumbles category - they call them "rushing" fumbles and are different (and smaller) numbers...

(my apologies to the thread starter for getting off topic)

With these stats Carr doesn't look all that bad. Maybe middle of the pack???? But what about the wins?? Carr must be in last place.

bah007
02-11-2007, 01:20 PM
With these stats Carr doesn't look all that bad. Maybe middle of the pack???? But what about the wins?? Carr must be in last place.

That's not a very good arguement.

He started his career on an expansion team.

TwinSisters
02-11-2007, 01:30 PM
With these stats Carr doesn't look all that bad. Maybe middle of the pack???? But what about the wins?? Carr must be in last place.

Well let's see:

Randall Cunnigham opened up the NFL for mobile running QBs as oppossed to the pocket passer. Along with putting up 5 straight 10+ win seasons and led a top ten offense 5 to 6 times. 4 or 5 seasons with 20+ TDs and 4 or 5 seasons throwing around 3200 yards while rushing for 500+. 10 starts in the playoffs and Pro Bowl appearances.

( on top of the fact that he could throw a bullet pass 50+ yards )

Culpepper was a little worse. Only one killer season with 4700 Yards and about 400 yards rushing a season. QB on 4 top ten offenses. Started in the playoffs, sat on Pro Bowl teams.

Jake Plummer... well now we get closer to Carr. Was the starter for a franchise that hadn't won a post season game since 1947, and then did. Beating the Dallas Cowboys so bad that it took them 5 years to turn in another winning season.

old football fan
02-11-2007, 02:42 PM
That's not a very good arguement.

He started his career on an expansion team.

Wasn't making an arguement, just kind of thinking out loud.

old football fan
02-11-2007, 02:45 PM
Well let's see:

Randall Cunnigham opened up the NFL for mobile running QBs as oppossed to the pocket passer. Along with putting up 5 straight 10+ win seasons and led a top ten offense 5 to 6 times. 4 or 5 seasons with 20+ TDs and 4 or 5 seasons throwing around 3200 yards while rushing for 500+. 10 starts in the playoffs and Pro Bowl appearances.

( on top of the fact that he could throw a bullet pass 50+ yards )

Culpepper was a little worse. Only one killer season with 4700 Yards and about 400 yards rushing a season. QB on 4 top ten offenses. Started in the playoffs, sat on Pro Bowl teams.

Jake Plummer... well now we get closer to Carr. Was the starter for a franchise that hadn't won a post season game since 1947, and then did. Beating the Dallas Cowboys so bad that it took them 5 years to turn in another winning season.

No Randle didn't. I suggest you go back and watch Fran Tarkington to find the first running back. Heck even Otto Graham did some running as a QB.

TwinSisters
02-11-2007, 03:15 PM
No Randle didn't. I suggest you go back and watch Fran Tarkington to find the first running back. Heck even Otto Graham did some running as a QB.

Well, let's say brought the Steve Grogan model back into vogue. I think he was the last real running QB that started full-time. Steve Young followed Cunningham up with Super Bowl appearances. So the path looks like Grogan - Cunningham - Young - Vick.

Tarkenton wasn't a running QB, he was a scrambler.

Grogan, Cunnignham, Young had plays designed with a run as an option or the primary option in regular use. ( 70-100 rushes called )

Graham looked more like the era and didn't really stick out ( just going off of stats here, his attempts and yards are on par with Unitas )

The Pencil Neck
02-11-2007, 03:19 PM
Graham looked more like the era and didn't really stick out ( just going off of stats here, his attempts and yards are on par with Unitas )

Bobby Douglass back with the Bears in the early 70's?

TwinSisters
02-11-2007, 03:34 PM
Bobby Douglass back with the Bears in the early 70's?

yeah that's a good call. Kansas and Kansas State that would put Grogan into the NFL.

SI did a really good article on this subject awhile back.