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brewhaus
12-21-2006, 03:16 PM
Listening to the radio today, the subject of how the Texans needed to change was talked about and the entire "culture" of the team was highlighted as what needed to change most. And, to change the culture of the team, the personnel change that needs to occur is deep and far reaching across the team.

My favorite coach said it like this:
"Winning is habit. Unfortunately, so is losing."
or
"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser. "

So, to think that the Texans are going to undergo a massive personnel change in the off season is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Anyone have a thougth on this?

NEROtheZERO
12-21-2006, 03:19 PM
I think this is the basis of the Carr needs to go complaints. He has endured 5 years of losing and has cultivated a losing mentality. This is the most legitimate reasoning to start anew, especially at the QB position, IMO.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Carr's career record is reason enough to trump any argument for keeping him here.

Meloy
12-21-2006, 03:21 PM
Listening to the radio today, the subject of how the Texans needed to change was talked about and the entire "culture" of the team was highlighted as what needed to change most. And, to change the culture of the team, the personnel change that needs to occur is deep and far reaching across the team.

My favorite coach said it like this:
"Winning is habit. Unfortunately, so is losing."
or
"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser. "

So, to think that the Texans are going to undergo a massive personnel change in the off season is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Anyone have a thougth on this?I think there will be some changes but we have a solid core & added to a good draft in 07 and a F/A starter (Nate Clemmons) we will be better. Count the players no longer here since last season. Like it or not, we are in a rebuilding mode.

MightyTExan
12-21-2006, 03:23 PM
Change the uniforms!

El Tejano
12-21-2006, 03:23 PM
Moon lost for almost 5 years and then he turned it on and became a Hall of Famer.

ATX
12-21-2006, 03:24 PM
In fact, I'd go as far as to say that Carr's career record is reason enough to trump any argument for keeping him here.

Even if we just look at the past 3 season and considered the 1st 2 seasons irrelevent, he'd still be a loser at 15-33. Atleast the Lions were smart enough to get rid of Harrington after 4 years.

ATX
12-21-2006, 03:26 PM
Moon lost for almost 5 years and then he turned it on and became a Hall of Famer.


True, very true......but that's the thing, he was a hall of fame QB and didn't make the same mistakes over and over like Carr did. He just had a really bad team around him. I don't think Carr will ever be as good as Moon, much less make a probowl.

Runner
12-21-2006, 03:27 PM
Yes, I have a thought on this.

Changing the players alone won't change the culture of the team. Culture comes from the top down and is ingrained in everything the organization does. The owner, the front office, the coaching staff, and the players all need to change.

For instance, if player introductions are canceled because somebody fears the Texans' own home crowd, that is a front office problem - it was admitting defeat going in. That affects culture.

If the owner protects a star player and holds him to a far different performance standard than anyone else, he is saying it isn't about winning. That affects culture.

Similarly, if the coaches start, give roster spots to, and cut players based on something other than on field performance (except for egregious off-field incidents) that also says it isn't about winning. That affects culture.

If the head coach repeatedly signals his players they aren't good enough to run a two minute drill, they start to believe it. That affects culture.

Sure, if the players are giving up and have a losing mentality, it affects culture. It isn't the only thing and may not even be the most important thing. I think the players can change easier than the organization can.

brewhaus
12-21-2006, 03:27 PM
Change the uniforms!

LOL.
I agree with you 100%.

Bubbajwp
12-21-2006, 03:35 PM
I think its time for Battle Red to become the home jersey. Not only because the look better but because I think it would symbolize the end of the old regime. Battle Red A New Beginning.

Vinny
12-21-2006, 03:39 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.

ATX
12-21-2006, 03:43 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.

I'm with you Vinny.....he even dropped the V word too.

Nighthawk
12-21-2006, 03:49 PM
Moon lost for almost 5 years and then he turned it on and became a Hall of Famer.

I think this is BS. Yes, Moon lost, but he NEVER lost like Carr loses. His first year was especially dodgy, as I remember, but at his worst he was light years better than Carr. Let's don't rewrite history to save our boy Dave.

Vinny
12-21-2006, 03:54 PM
I think this is BS. Yes, Moon lost, but he NEVER lost like Carr loses. His first year was especially dodgy, as I remember, but at his worst he was light years better than Carr. Let's don't rewrite history to save our boy Dave.Moon was never inept even though you would pull your hair out sometimes (no offense to you bald guys) watching him chunk picks. He was a skilled passer and he flashed big plays the during his entire NFL learning curve. Moon took chances because he had the courage to make the tough throw. He chunked a ton of INT's early in his career but he was exciting to watch and you could see him improving as he gained NFL experience. You can't say the same for Carr.

Bubbajwp
12-21-2006, 03:56 PM
Moon was never inept even though you would pull your hair out sometimes (no offense to you bald guys) watching him chunk picks. He was a skilled passer and he flashed big plays the during his entire NFL learning curve. Moon took chances because he had the courage to make the tough throw. He chunked a ton of INT's early in his career but he was exciting to watch and you could see him improving as he gained NFL experience. You can't say the same for Carr.

Carr looks worse and worse with more experience.

Bubbajwp
12-21-2006, 03:57 PM
Maybe we should swap uniforms with the Steelers.

Whats that mean.

brewhaus
12-21-2006, 03:58 PM
Moon was never inept even though you would pull your hair out sometimes (no offense to you bald guys) watching chunk picks. He was a skilled passer and he flashed big plays the during his entire NFL learning curve. Moon took chances because he had the courage to make the tough throw. He chunked a ton of INT's early in his career but he was exciting to watch and you could see him improving as he gained NFL experience. You can't say the same for Carr.

How about the rest of the team? I think that most of the Texans players have become comfortable with losing. Very few have players have openly voiced their dissatisfaction with the situation. Dunta spoke out last week but I don't think anyone else on the roster has said much, have they?

Second Honeymoon
12-21-2006, 04:01 PM
Listening to the radio today, the subject of how the Texans needed to change was talked about and the entire "culture" of the team was highlighted as what needed to change most. And, to change the culture of the team, the personnel change that needs to occur is deep and far reaching across the team.

My favorite coach said it like this:
"Winning is habit. Unfortunately, so is losing."
or
"Show me a good loser, and I'll show you a loser. "

So, to think that the Texans are going to undergo a massive personnel change in the off season is not beyond the realm of possibility.

Anyone have a thougth on this?

my baseball coach used to say the same thing, and it made sense then and it makes sense now. if losing doesnt hurt you in the pit of your soul, then you are probably not a successful professional athlete...david is successful as a person and family man but as a player he doesnt even have the respect of his own locker room much less the rest of the league. he is like a dorky legacy in a fraternity. he is in the frat but he really isnt IN the frat or one of 'the boys'. just mo

kcwilson
12-21-2006, 04:01 PM
I like Carr and think that he needs a change of scenery for his own benefit, ala Plummer in Arizona. He isn't a bad person, just not a performer at this point and is basically in over his head.

I'll take the cap hit in order to get a more confident QB back there and not waste the prime years of AJ right now. AJ can be elite and was a great draft pick, but if we can't get him the ball (and I don't want an elite receiver running 5 yard crossing routes every play) then it is a waste of a draft pick.

I am ok if Sage starts next year, but would prefer someone else, and not Plummer.

ATX
12-21-2006, 04:05 PM
I like Carr and think that he needs a change of scenery for his own benefit, ala Plummer in Arizona. He isn't a bad person, just not a performer at this point and is basically in over his head.

I'll take the cap hit in order to get a more confident QB back there and not waste the prime years of AJ right now. AJ can be elite and was a great draft pick, but if we can't get him the ball (and I don't want an elite receiver running 5 yard crossing routes every play) then it is a waste of a draft pick.

I am ok if Sage starts next year, but would prefer someone else, and not Plummer.


I'm with you on this man....I'd rather have Sage starting than Plummer. Plummer looked horrible this year and was replaced by a rookie....I don't think that was Denver's plan to begin the year.

Honoring Earl 34
12-21-2006, 04:07 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.

If I was the owner I would be on a first name basis with my players but I would let them know that it's business and if you did'nt perform you were gone . Don't be a landlord if your not willing to kick somebody out .

kcwilson
12-21-2006, 04:10 PM
If I was the owner I would be on a first name basis with my players but I would let them know that it's business and if you did'nt perform you were gone . Don't be a landlord if your not willing to kick somebody out .

McNair ought to know like every good businessman that mistakes can be made, and when it is apparent that a mistake has been made, you need to mitigate the risk of the problem and resolve it as best as possible.

Not being able to admit a mistake is worse than making a mistake itself.

Second Honeymoon
12-21-2006, 04:10 PM
True, very true......but that's the thing, he was a hall of fame QB and didn't make the same mistakes over and over like Carr did. He just had a really bad team around him. I don't think Carr will ever be as good as Moon, much less make a probowl.

Moon had mad game. He had accuracy, strong arm, and was an extremely smart QB. His problems that he seemed to lack the fire and determination/leadership qualitys of other QBs of his time and he turned the ball over at some of the worst times.

Carr has none of Moon's strengths but all of his weaknesses. Please refrain from comparing Carr to Moon. Will 'Der' Furrer maybe.

NEROtheZERO
12-21-2006, 04:11 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.
I'm holding out on that. I heard some comments on the readio this past week that I think were by Mcnair, "The QB takes too much of the blame," "If you point a finger you have 3 pointed back at you," "The whole team played badly, you can't single out one guy." All in defense of Carr. If these comments were from McNair then he'd better be stunting, and if Carr is on our roster come week 1 2007, well, I will start boycotting the games.

touttail
12-21-2006, 04:12 PM
Wouldn't it be just awesome to go into Sunday's game against Indy, knowing you had some swagger, knowing we were going to kick some butt instead of getting imbarrassed!!!

Bobby 119C

Second Honeymoon
12-21-2006, 04:15 PM
I think its time for Battle Red to become the home jersey. Not only because the look better but because I think it would symbolize the end of the old regime. Battle Red A New Beginning.

That's so crazy it just might work. Make the blue jersey the 'alternate' uniform and pair them up with the blue pants. Go with Red Jerseys at Home and the White Jerseys on the road. The blue jerseys just look too much like Denver for my tastes.

I believe they will be wearing the all blue unis this weekend. Maybe the 'braintrust' of the Texans are testing the waters..... :tease:

anywho, I am all for the red uniforms to replace the blue ones.

Honoring Earl 34
12-21-2006, 04:15 PM
McNair ought to know like every good businessman that mistakes can be made, and when it is apparent that a mistake has been made, you need to mitigate the risk of the problem and resolve it as best as possible.

Not being able to admit a mistake is worse than making a mistake itself.

I don't know if he can't admit a mistake or he likes David that much or both . Either way we lose ... I guess we'll change to boyscout colors .

Second Honeymoon
12-21-2006, 04:29 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.

I have been down on McNair since our 3rd offseason. We choked the second half of that season and the writing was already on the wall about Carr's ability as a closer/winner. Well we make the risky deal of trading for PBuck and I was skeptically optimistic about having PBuc as our Nickel behind Dunta and Glenn. Then we let Glenn go?!?!? Then we made the play to get Pace from the STL. McNair let himself get used as a bargaining chip and we get no Pace.

So Glenna and Sharper are gone. Then we pass on DJ for a guy from Florida State who beats his girlfriend and has a bad work ethic. Then in FA who do we bring in? He grossly overpays for Greenwood. McNair has money but he spends it like a trophy wife on Xanex. The people that work for him are just Yes Men who are more concerned with staying on Bob's good side than making responsible tough decisions. His latest AP press statement took the cake though. He backs Carr and blames the rest of the talent around him and then Carr comes out and lays an egg on New England soil.....how freakin embarassing

DatTexBoy
12-21-2006, 04:29 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair. No Mr. McNair, that's what you said!

Best post of the year goes to....Vinny!

Double Barrel
12-21-2006, 04:38 PM
Yes, I have a thought on this.

Changing the players alone won't change the culture of the team. Culture comes from the top down and is ingrained in everything the organization does. The owner, the front office, the coaching staff, and the players all need to change.

For instance, if player introductions are canceled because somebody fears the Texans' own home crowd, that is a front office problem - it was admitting defeat going in. That affects culture.

If the owner protects a star player and holds him to a far different performance standard than anyone else, he is saying it isn't about winning. That affects culture.

Similarly, if the coaches start, give roster spots to, and cut players based on something other than on field performance (except for egregious off-field incidents) that also says it isn't about winning. That affects culture.

If the head coach repeatedly signals his players they aren't good enough to run a two minute drill, they start to believe it. That affects culture.

Sure, if the players are giving up and have a losing mentality, it affects culture. It isn't the only thing and may not even be the most important thing. I think the players can change easier than the organization can.

I agree. And add if the owner hires Charlie Casserly and Dom Capers to run your team, that affects culture.

Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.

I think our owner is slowly learning the art of talking out of both sides of the mouth. I don't like it, and frankly, he's a fair target if he's part of the decision making process.

When teams in today's NFL turn things around in a year, he'd better be damn staight that Texans fans feel we have the right to demand and expect the same. Five years of pathetic brings us to a point of enough is enough. Cook or get out of the freakin' kitchen!

If I was the owner I would be on a first name basis with my players but I would let them know that it's business and if you did'nt perform you were gone . Don't be a landlord if your not willing to kick somebody out .

yep, the late, great Lamar Hunt knew more about his players' lives than his head coaches. He knew them all by first name basis, and even though it was business at the end of the day, he had a personal involvment with carring about their well-being while a Kansas City Chief. Yet another reason why he was so highly regarded by so many people. Our owner could take lessons from this story.

Second Honeymoon
12-21-2006, 04:43 PM
yep, the late, great Lamar Hunt knew more about his players' lives than his head coaches. He knew them all by first name basis, and even though it was business at the end of the day, he had a personal involvment with carring about their well-being while a Kansas City Chief. Yet another reason why he was so highly regarded by so many people. Our owner could take lessons from this story.

Yup. RIP Lamar Hunt. A great American and a great NFL owner.

Merry Christmas

Revolution
12-21-2006, 07:12 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.

Vinny, I think (HOPE!) that McNair is just spinning things the best he can right now. In a way, giving a vote of confidence. You know what that means....changes are definitely coming!

the wonger need food
12-21-2006, 07:21 PM
I expect no more than 15 players leftover from the 2004 roster. But it all has to start with the Face of the Franchise who in essence is the The Face of Failure.

shinerbock_girl
12-21-2006, 07:26 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.

And i don't believe NcNair is going to admit fault now...Which is why i have a feeling Carr will be back...They defended him to much.

aj.
12-21-2006, 07:30 PM
Moon lost for almost 5 years and then he turned it on and became a Hall of Famer.

Moon won a playoff game in his 4th season with the Oilers.

Honoring Earl 34
12-21-2006, 07:33 PM
And i don't believe NcNair is going to admit fault now...Which is why i have a feeling Carr will be back...They defended him to much.

I can't see anyboby who has some grit ( Kubiak , Smith , etc. ) ... staying around for the circus that they would create .

It's merciful to let David go ... if you like him that would be the thing to do .

Is this like men not wanting to ask for directions .

Why did'nt you bet ?

Kaiser Toro
12-21-2006, 07:37 PM
Yes, I have a thought on this.

Changing the players alone won't change the culture of the team. Culture comes from the top down and is ingrained in everything the organization does. The owner, the front office, the coaching staff, and the players all need to change.

For instance, if player introductions are canceled because somebody fears the Texans' own home crowd, that is a front office problem - it was admitting defeat going in. That affects culture.

If the owner protects a star player and holds him to a far different performance standard than anyone else, he is saying it isn't about winning. That affects culture.

Similarly, if the coaches start, give roster spots to, and cut players based on something other than on field performance (except for egregious off-field incidents) that also says it isn't about winning. That affects culture.

If the head coach repeatedly signals his players they aren't good enough to run a two minute drill, they start to believe it. That affects culture.

Sure, if the players are giving up and have a losing mentality, it affects culture. It isn't the only thing and may not even be the most important thing. I think the players can change easier than the organization can.

We march to the same kazoo, well said.

Runner
12-21-2006, 07:50 PM
I expect no more than 15 players leftover from the 2004 roster.

If so, I wonder if they'll beat that 2004 team's 7-9 record. :shades:

Wharton
12-21-2006, 10:09 PM
I see a huge, huge shortage of talent on this team and a huge, huge shortage of spirit for lack of a better word. Because this team has come to accept losing, which makes it worse then the original 2002 team, it is now harder for the Texans to become a winning franchise. To turn this around, I recommend changing the roster as much as possible as quickly as possible.
I know its wierd, but I just quoted myself from another thread. I mean really, why type it again.

I've been wondering about how effective a leader Mr. McNair is as well. The man is bloody rich and he didn't get that way by accident. But, considering the Texans could write a book title "How not to start an NFL Franchise", you have to start asking the question "Do we have the right people making decisions on this team?"

From a business standpoint, the Texans have made some real good moves, most notably the PSL contract. And the customer service so far has been great. I've gotten phone calls from my customer service rep to make sure I'm satisfied with the game time experience and I have to admit, other than losing, the Texans put on a pretty good show.

So Mr. McNair is a good business man, but is he a good football man?

I like that Mr. McNair made some big changes last year but we still didn't bring in anyone to compete against DC, the o-line is still in shambles, and, while Mario may still turn out to be a good player, I have not been impressed thus far. From what I have read on this board, Mr. McNair allows his GM and coaches make all the personel decision. I wonder if that is wise. Maybe, what we need is for Mr. McNair to take a little more lead in the direction of the football team.

TexansFanatic
12-21-2006, 10:24 PM
Culture change starts at the top. Am I the only one that is getting Funky on McNair lately? When we picked Mario, one of the reasons McNair stated was that we wanted to win now so we didn't want to bring in a QB even though it was an elite year for QB's. Last week McNair came out and defended David by almost chastising the fans by saying everyone is in too big a hurry and the fans just want to win now, and that we should show some patience. I can't correlate these two diametrically opposite comments by McNair.

No, you're not alone. I have been a HUGE fan of Bob McNair. In the beginning, how could you not be. The man brought pro football back to Houston and he did it with class and dogged determination. In many ways, he was simply the Anti-Bud, and that meant so much to me. I was certain this organization would win soon. Five miserable seasons later, the owner is absolutely not without fault. He's made some seriously poor football decisions and now he's starting to get a little bit testy and defensive. Well, Mr. McNair, you are the OWNER and you need to OWN your failure.

Don't get me wrong: I still think he's light years better than Bud. But Bud had the smarts to pick VY and Bob didn't and that has made all the difference for both teams this year and perhaps for years to come....

brewhaus
12-22-2006, 06:05 AM
Don't get me wrong: I still think he's light years better than Bud. But Bud had the smarts to pick VY and Bob didn't and that has made all the difference for both teams this year and perhaps for years to come....

Perhaps. But I certainly hope an entire organization doesn't allow itself to be "owned" by 1 player of a divisional rival. People need to "get over it". It is as if everyone is saying the Titans will dominate the Texans for years to come.......IT AIN'T SO !

Below is a link to a clip. You can hear the reasoning straight from the horses mouth, if you haven't already heard it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQI4VYb6iGM

Silver Oak
12-22-2006, 06:43 AM
I was never a fan of Moon or the Run 'n Shoot offense. Lots of talk on here about the check passes DC does, but I still recall how the 3-5 yd quick slant was a standard play in the Moon offense.

I do like the uniform change being thrown around on here. But if it was going to happen, wouldn't they have done it in Kubiaks first year, or did he arrive too late for that? Change the helmets to something like an "H" on the color blue.

At least we would already have the throwback apparel ready in our closets! :)

Rightnow
12-22-2006, 09:01 AM
I think that Sylvester Stallone in his memorable role as Lincoln Hawk in Over the Top said it best:

"Losing doesn't matter if you lose like a winner."

or

"The world meets nobody halfway. When you want something, you gotta take it."

With such an attitude Mr. Hawk managed to retain custody of his son, win an arm wrestling contest, keep out of prison after causing hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage after he drove through a mansion, and secure a lively hood for him and his son with a new truck.

Lincoln Hawk is an inspiration to us all and could be a fine example for the Texans organization.

Texanfan4ever
12-22-2006, 09:07 AM
I think its time for Battle Red to become the home jersey. Not only because the look better but because I think it would symbolize the end of the old regime. Battle Red A New Beginning.

I like all of our uniforms, but changing to Battle Red is a great idea. Starting over with a color that we always play well in. Works for me.

Double Barrel
12-22-2006, 10:18 AM
I was never a fan of Moon or the Run 'n Shoot offense. Lots of talk on here about the check passes DC does, but I still recall how the 3-5 yd quick slant was a standard play in the Moon offense.


It's a standard play in a lot of NFL offenses (Tom Brady/Patriots immediately comes to mind).

The difference, though, is that other teams stretch the field and don't use these dump passes as their bread and butter plays. These passes make up the majority of our air power, and without any ability to throw deep, they are ineffective. That's our style, unfortunately.

Ryan
12-22-2006, 10:22 AM
It's a standard play in a lot of NFL offenses (Tom Brady/Patriots immediately comes to mind).

The difference, though, is that other teams stretch the field and don't use these dump passes as their bread and butter plays. These passes make up the majority of our air power, and without any ability to throw deep, they are ineffective. That's our style, unfortunately.

agreed.

Runner
12-22-2006, 10:47 AM
These passes make up the majority of our air power...

Air power? :shades:

Double Barrel
12-22-2006, 11:02 AM
Air power? :shades:

Of course, diclaimer assumed that "air power" is a relative term. :secret: