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Texans Horror
12-21-2006, 12:23 PM
The defensive line was the biggest overhaul this past offseason (except for the coaching staff). With the season almost over, I was wondering what people thought of the defensive unit and whether it has improved by way of the new scheme or if it is as bad or worse than before.

Personally, I think it is looking better, and I think the Texans got better performances from key people who have played in both systems (TJ, Babin).

Bubbajwp
12-21-2006, 01:06 PM
depends on the players more.

Ryan
12-21-2006, 01:16 PM
the defense has improved and is getting better..but i dont know if it is thanks to the 4-3.

TheOgre
12-21-2006, 01:23 PM
It isn't a 3-4 vs. a 4-3 thing so much as we never had the talent for the 3-4. The 3-4 defense is more sensitive to talent IMO than the 4-3. In other words, the 3-4 utilizes, yet also exposes, your talent more. You can cover up bad talent easier in the 4-3 than the 3-4.

Texan_Bill
12-21-2006, 01:27 PM
It isn't a 3-4 vs. a 4-3 thing so much as we never had the talent for the 3-4. The 3-4 defense is more sensitive to talent IMO than the 4-3. In other words, the 3-4 utilizes, yet also exposes, your talent more. You can cover up bad talent easier in the 4-3 than the 3-4.

I agree... Personnel to fit a particular system is the most important thing... We did not ever reach the talent level needed to run a 3-4. It can be a very effective defense (see San Diego, Pittsburgh past, New England, etc.)

http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/getFiles.asp?Style=OliveXLib:ArticleToMail&Type=text/html&Path=NYS/2003/09/17&ID=Ar01400

dbspi
12-21-2006, 02:38 PM
It isn't a 3-4 vs. a 4-3 thing so much as we never had the talent for the 3-4. The 3-4 defense is more sensitive to talent IMO than the 4-3. In other words, the 3-4 utilizes, yet also exposes, your talent more. You can cover up bad talent easier in the 4-3 than the 3-4.

Every other team were able to find right personnel to run 3-4 defense except Capers. One example to look at would be Cowboys, they converted to 3-4 defense two years letter then us but look at their team now.

Previous management and coaching staff had absolutely no eye for talent. Capers had stated when he drafted Babin that he can play like Gregg LLoyd. I don't see even 1% resemblance to Lloyd game in Babin. Another wasted high pick.

I don't know exactly what Mr. Bob McNair show in those two guys to bring them aboard. They have sent our team back at least 5 years. capers is good DC and that is all he will ever be, he doesn't have the vision to ever be HC.

Personally speaking I love 3-4 defense but you need the right coach to lead with aside from personnel. I would have preferred Capers to be our DC rather then HC.

thunderkyss
12-21-2006, 03:06 PM
It isn't a 3-4 vs. a 4-3 thing so much as we never had the talent for the 3-4. The 3-4 defense is more sensitive to talent IMO than the 4-3. In other words, the 3-4 utilizes, yet also exposes, your talent more. You can cover up bad talent easier in the 4-3 than the 3-4.

I see it totally opposite... I think talent has to be superior in the 4-3, because that guy in front of you knows you're coming. You've got to be bigger, faster or stronger than he is, or you won't do much of anything.

In the 3-4.... the trick is to fool them so they don't know who is coming. Dropping a LB into coverage is more effective in a 3-4 than dropping 290lb DEs..

The 3-4 takes Brains, the 4-3 takes brawn.

plus you're always running against a 5 man front in a 3-4, as opposed to a 4 man front in a 4-3.

the problem, going from a 3-4 to a 4-3 is usually finding DEs that will impact the game. Our problem for some reason was/is finding LBs..... I guess with 4 on the field, it's easier to cover the underneath routes than it is with three LBs in a 4-3.

thunderkyss
12-21-2006, 03:09 PM
Every other team were able to find right personnel to run 3-4 defense except Capers. One example to look at would be Cowboys, they converted to 3-4 defense two years letter then us but look at their team now.

Previous management and coaching staff had absolutely no eye for talent. Capers had stated when he drafted Babin that he can play like Gregg LLoyd. I don't see even 1% resemblance to Lloyd game in Babin. Another wasted high pick.

I don't know exactly what Mr. Bob McNair show in those two guys to bring them aboard. They have sent our team back at least 5 years. capers is good DC and that is all he will ever be, he doesn't have the vision to ever be HC.

Personally speaking I love 3-4 defense but you need the right coach to lead with aside from personnel. I would have preferred Capers to be our DC rather then HC.



Yeah, I like Babin, but I don't see any Gregg LLoyd in him.

But if you look at Dallas' 3-4, and ours.... they were totally different.

we had a svelt NT, but big bodied DEs...... didn't make sense to me.

Dallas, and New England, and SanDiego, and Pittsburgh, and SF all have svelt DEs, and big bodied NTs...

Jason Ferguson for the Cowboys look more like TJ & Robair Smith(that would have been my NT if I were calling the shots.......), and Richard Seymour, Chris Canty, Marcus Spears look like Mario Williams.

Hervoyel
12-21-2006, 03:18 PM
Anyones 4-3 is better than Vic Fangios 3-4.

That being said the defense is better because we've added some talent and are running a system (4-3) that a lot of our existing talent is better suited to playing. We have also put a few guys out of position by making the change but we obviously helped more than we hurt.

Of course anyones defense is going to be in for a long day if it's playing alongside the 2006 Houston Texans offense.

painekiller
12-21-2006, 11:21 PM
Either defense depend on the front 7. And we never had the right guys in the 3-4. But the problem is we currently do not have the right guys for the 4-3. We are still an OLB away at the very least.

I hope we see alot of Anderson these last 2 games, he seems to be making plays. If he can become an all around SAM LB, that will save this team some time and free up a draft choice for the secondary or DT. Not saying he will be this guy but he has earned some more playing time. Find out now on the field.

Grid
12-21-2006, 11:26 PM
the 4-3 is as good as the 3-4.. there have been top defenses from both systems.

I prefer the 4-3 because:

1. It is a straight forward defense that focuses on the fun stuff.. like sacking the QB

2. It is better against the run

3. When those elite LB and DE prospects come out, you can actually draft one instead of going back and forth about whether they can gain/lose 20 pounds to fit into a 3-4 position.



My favorite kind of defense to watch is a 4-3 that puts emphasis on speed. I love to see a fast, athletic defense that is all over the field. Very entertaining to me.

Drager
12-21-2006, 11:47 PM
Any defense(3-4 or 4-3) is better if you've got talented personnel. Look at the Bears from '85 to '86. They go from the attacking "46"-defense to a bend-but-don't-break approach. Both years they dominated defensively because they had some really good players.

I like our defense. I think it's easier to run a 4-3 without the right personnel than it is to run a 3-4 w/o the right people. They've played so much better since that opening 4-game stretch. They really looked confused back then. They seem to be executing much better & I like our aggressive play. I would like to see Mario getting more QB pressures, but I know he's playing on a bad foot right now. But next year he'd better apply pressure on QB's alot more consistently. But he has shown some flashes. I also hope we can get some serious upgrades at both safety positions for next. Brown & Earl make alot of mistakes. I've seen alot of missed tackles, taking bad angles to the ball carrier, & seeing them bite on the short route as the deep guy goes sprinting by is pretty damn scary.

I like fast, blitzing 4-3's like Jim Johnson's in Philly. I hate watching crappy-ass prevent defenses. I'd rather take a chance & try to force them into an error rather than sitting back & getting taken apart. I like the Texans aggressive play calling on D. Yeah, it may have cost us the Titans game, but I liked the blitz on that final play. I mean, pretty much the only way we get pressure on any QB is with our blitzes. It will be alot better to watch those blitzes when we have a better secondary. Dunta's needs help in the secondary pretty bad. But that's in addition to all of our other holes.

ATX
12-22-2006, 12:02 AM
I believe it comes down mostly to personnel and who can fit in your system.

The advantage personnel wise in the 3-4 is that you need less linemen, which are harder to come by than LBs. Well that's what Capers said.....remember when he used to have like 20-30 LBs in training camp when Capers was here?

BattleRedToro
12-22-2006, 12:05 AM
the 4-3 is as good as the 3-4.. there have been top defenses from both systems.

I prefer the 4-3 because:

1. It is a straight forward defense that focuses on the fun stuff.. like sacking the QB

2. It is better against the run

3. When those elite LB and DE prospects come out, you can actually draft one instead of going back and forth about whether they can gain/lose 20 pounds to fit into a 3-4 position.



My favorite kind of defense to watch is a 4-3 that puts emphasis on speed. I love to see a fast, athletic defense that is all over the field. Very entertaining to me.

There are many that say that a 3-4 is better against the run than a 4-3. I agree with others that what matters most is if you have the right personnel for the system you are running and second is the playcalling. In general, it is better to be unpredictable, but if you are going to be predictable then your team needs to master the execution of their play.

Second Honeymoon
12-22-2006, 12:11 AM
I believe it comes down mostly to personnel and who can fit in your system.

The advantage personnel wise in the 3-4 is that you need less linemen, which are harder to come by than LBs. Well that's what Capers said.....remember when he used to have like 20-30 LBs in training camp when Capers was here?

my thoughts exactly. go with what you know and stop trying to let a system dictate who and what you draft.

dbspi
12-22-2006, 01:57 AM
Yeah, I like Babin, but I don't see any Gregg LLoyd in him.

But if you look at Dallas' 3-4, and ours.... they were totally different.

we had a svelt NT, but big bodied DEs...... didn't make sense to me.

Dallas, and New England, and SanDiego, and Pittsburgh, and SF all have svelt DEs, and big bodied NTs...

Jason Ferguson for the Cowboys look more like TJ & Robair Smith(that would have been my NT if I were calling the shots.......), and Richard Seymour, Chris Canty, Marcus Spears look like Mario Williams.

This is what I was trying to point out. Previous management and the coaching staff had absolutely no idea how to build a team and obviously they also had absolutely NO eye for the talent.

I know this statement is very harsh against Capers since he had a great reputations as a 3-4 GURU but this is also a fact. I don't know who contributed how much into deciding on personnel decision but 95% of the selections were bad. Except for AJ and DRob we wasted our draft picks the first 3 or 4 years.

I have never been a cowboys fans and that team was just as bad as these Texans 5 years ago but I just love what Parcell has done with their defense. They are not a finished product by any means but they sure look good right now.

Imagine how we could have been if coaching staff and management had made good decision with the personel move.

Explanation given to us by Capers after selecting Babin was that he sees allot of GREG LLOYD in Babin play where as I don't see any thing in Babin that will indicate to me that is any resemblence of Lloyd.

The last two draft picks by Capers Babin and Travis Johnson are both wasted picks. They are both nothing more then high priced back ups. Johnson is not motivated enough to play every down and Babin has become situational player who comes in 3rd down. Look what we had to give up to acquire Babin. Instead of Travis Johnson we could have had Derrick Johnson from UT to play along with Demeco right now.

Kubiak has done a good job with his draft picks last year. All the picks has been solid GOLD. He needs to do the same for the next 4-5 years for us to have any chance to become respectable in this league. It won't happen with one or two year draft picks. Even with good draft picks next year I don't expect us to be 500 ball club. It will require atleast 2008 draft picks before we reach 500 ball club unless Texans spend enormous amount of money in free agency this off season.

One has to remember previous management has wasted money in free agency. I expect Kubiak to clean house this off season of all the dead weights and non productive players with high salaries.

dbspi
12-22-2006, 02:15 AM
I wish we had some one like Jimmy Johnson as our DC. I simply love his game planning and agressive attitude on the field by his defense.

He reminds me in allot of ways to Buddy Ryans.

dbspi
12-22-2006, 02:22 AM
We won't see real Mario till we build the DL. Opposing teams target Mario from get go and he gets double and tripple team every time. We need better DT's in our line up who can collapse the pocket. Payne is not the answer for us at DT position and Travis Johnson lacks consistency.

The reason Julius Pepper is do dominant is because he has supporting cast on his defensive line to take double blockers and collapse the pocket. Presently Mario doesn't have that luxury.

Drager
12-22-2006, 02:34 AM
Buddy Ryan does have two sons in the NFL. Not a surprise that they're both DC's!!! Son Rob has done good things with little at Oakland. Rex has also done an outstanding job at Baltimore. The Ravens are number #1 in yardage allowed & points. Not too bad to have sons coaching the #1 & #4 defense in the NFL.

While I'd like to have Rex as our DC, I think Smith has done a good job. Our defense has come a long way. They should be even better next year. At least I hope.

dbspi
12-22-2006, 03:48 AM
Buddy Ryan does have two sons in the NFL. Not a surprise that they're both DC's!!! Son Rob has done good things with little at Oakland. Rex has also done an outstanding job at Baltimore. The Ravens are number #1 in yardage allowed & points. Not too bad to have sons coaching the #1 & #4 defense in the NFL.

While I'd like to have Rex as our DC, I think Smith has done a good job. Our defense has come a long way. They should be even better next year. At least I hope.

Yes Smith has done a great job no doubt. We still lack so many pieces on defense but year or two it will be really good if the management fill in all the gaps.

1. We need solid DT play - TJ has been inconsistent for most part but we still need one more DT to play along with him who can collapse the pocket and free Mario of double teams. I think Payne career is pretty much over.
2. We need OLB who can play along with Demeco.
3. We need stud CB who can play along with DRob.
4. We need good FS
5. Once # 1-4 requirements is met then we will also need a stud DE opposite to Mario who can flat out chase the QB all day.

I really like to see Texans give blank check to Nate Clements this off season and sign him and pursue Sand (DT from Oakland) this off season. Draft FS and OLB.
Sands is playing behind two hall of famer but he is stud in every sense and he never takes plays off. He collapses the pocket and is good in both run defense as well as pass defense.

Sands (DT) - 6'7 335 llb

Trenches
12-22-2006, 11:54 AM
the biggest problem I had with the 3-4, for Houston, was this:

very few college teams actually run a 3-4. therefore, very few college LB's know how to play it. If a college LB doesnt have the experience then how much experience can a college DE have????

The Texans tried to plug in ROOKIE DE's to play a VERY tough position in the NFL. Those guys were used to going after the QB NOT dropping back in coverage.

Relying on a rookie in that defense is STUPID. Look where the defense went after they let go vets like Sharper. Sure, he wasnt the fastest guy anymore, but he knew what to do and where to be.

So, for this team, stay in the 4-3 and develop good players like Ryans. A few years down the road when they have a veteran defense, I wouldnt care if they ran a few 3-4 looks.

thunderkyss
12-22-2006, 12:32 PM
the biggest problem I had with the 3-4, for Houston, was this:

very few college teams actually run a 3-4. therefore, very few college LB's know how to play it. If a college LB doesnt have the experience then how much experience can a college DE have????

The Texans tried to plug in ROOKIE DE's to play a VERY tough position in the NFL. Those guys were used to going after the QB NOT dropping back in coverage.

Relying on a rookie in that defense is STUPID. Look where the defense went after they let go vets like Sharper. Sure, he wasnt the fastest guy anymore, but he knew what to do and where to be.

So, for this team, stay in the 4-3 and develop good players like Ryans. A few years down the road when they have a veteran defense, I wouldnt care if they ran a few 3-4 looks.


hm...... Merriman went to the Probowl as a rookie didn't he?? Even if he didn't, he did pretty dang well. Demarcus Ware doesn't seem to be having a problem, and neither is Manny Lawson...

The OLB spot in the 3-4 Can be a small DE, or a big LB...... Mario, Jason Taylor, and several DEs have been dropped into coverage at the college level, as well as in the pros..... it's not that uncommon. Not saying that Mario or Taylor can be 3-4 OLBs... because they can't.. just saying it's not uncommon for DEs to do some covering at the college level. If they were to play in a 3-4..... Mario would be a DE, and JT would be an awkward LB. but that's neither here nor there.

But the player has to be smart.... I don't think Babin is smart(& I like Babin).. he's got to understand football... not just his position, but how the whole defense works together.... I don't think Babin or Peek are football smart. & they have to be athletic.. I don't think Babin or Shantee Orr are very athletic.

this "pinning their ears back" & going after the QB is overated... & makes that player one dimensional & less versatile.... he's a specialist, and doesn't belong on the field every down.

There's nothing wrong with a 3-4..... nothing wrong with putting a rookie(like AJ Hawk or Bobby Carpenter) in a 3-4..

The problem wasn't putting Rookies at these important positions.... if you've got the right rookie(Demeco/Tatupa as MLBs in a 4-3)...... it doesn't matter.

The hard part is trying to get the right rookie. & while I like Babin, I don't think he was the right rookie.

MATRIX
12-22-2006, 12:40 PM
It isn't a 3-4 vs. a 4-3 thing so much as we never had the talent for the 3-4. The 3-4 defense is more sensitive to talent IMO than the 4-3. In other words, the 3-4 utilizes, yet also exposes, your talent more. You can cover up bad talent easier in the 4-3 than the 3-4.

Thats what it is. look at the good teams who run a 3-4 like New England. You normaly never see people left wide open or running 50yrds for a score. And the reason is...the talent is good form DE to DE to LB to CB to S and they all play their positions well. Hell, they had a reciver play games as a DB and the other D players where good enough he wasn't smoked.

In Houston...we never had that talent level on D. So, the 3-4 was a bad idea. It is a great D for mixing up blitzs and coverage. But, only if you have the talent.

ATX
12-22-2006, 12:54 PM
Is Capers running a 3-4 in Miami? I really haven't seen too much of Miami.....and our win against them seems like ages ago. I checked their depth chart and it shows them running a 4-3. I don't understand why Capers was so adament about running a 3-4 here, while he goes to another team to run a 4-3.

thunderkyss
12-22-2006, 01:34 PM
Is Capers running a 3-4 in Miami? I really haven't seen too much of Miami.....and our win against them seems like ages ago. I checked their depth chart and it shows them running a 4-3. I don't understand why Capers was so adament about running a 3-4 here, while he goes to another team to run a 4-3.

because he isn't calling the shots in Miami.

BattleRedToro
12-23-2006, 12:29 AM
Is Capers running a 3-4 in Miami? I really haven't seen too much of Miami.....and our win against them seems like ages ago. I checked their depth chart and it shows them running a 4-3. I don't understand why Capers was so adament about running a 3-4 here, while he goes to another team to run a 4-3.

because he isn't calling the shots in Miami.

Capers has experience coaching both and I think he prefers the 3-4 alignment, but like thunderkyss said I think the main reason is because he isn't calling the shots in Miami.

TheOgre
12-26-2006, 07:39 AM
Is Capers running a 3-4 in Miami? I really haven't seen too much of Miami.....and our win against them seems like ages ago. I checked their depth chart and it shows them running a 4-3. I don't understand why Capers was so adament about running a 3-4 here, while he goes to another team to run a 4-3.

He also had a 4-3 defense when he was D-coordinator for Jacksonville (right before he was our HC). He needs to stick to being a DC only.