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View Full Version : Is Houston too hard on QB's ?


axman40
12-20-2006, 04:24 PM
Is Houston too hard on the QB?I have been a fan of Houston's NFL teams since the early70's. I recall Pastorini being called Pass da Weenie! I was a season tickect holder the first 3 years Moon signed in Houston. I had to endure many Sunday's with N-bombs and some guy who thought himself clever by replcing the m in Moon and replacing it with a C. I am sure Moon did not find that funny!
So where does that put Carr and the response he is receiving now?Is Carr the main short coming of this offense? Which came first the chicken or the egg? If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? What say you?
:shades:

Honoring Earl 34
12-20-2006, 04:25 PM
Whatever happens in Houston multiply by 5 and you have the east coast .

TexansFan99
12-20-2006, 04:28 PM
I lived in NY and Philly...those "fans" are hard on the QBs. Carr wouldn't have last this long there.

kcwilson
12-20-2006, 04:33 PM
Every place claims to be worse than the other. Bottom line is that if you don't produce, then the fans are hard on you.

QB just seems to be the most notable, highly visible position. Otherwise, Dunta should be picked on for not stepping up as a leader (Why did DeMeco have such an easy time falling into the leader of the defense? Should he have had to wrestle that away from D-Rob? I think so.) and why don't we continually pick on Faggins and Brown for making the same mistakes. Treat no one any different than anyone else is what I say.

the wonger need food
12-20-2006, 04:40 PM
If anything, we've been too easy on Carr. In any other city he would have been benched for good last year. And now after 5 years of failure we're talking about giving him 2 more seasons to prove himself?

Vinny
12-20-2006, 04:45 PM
Every fan base that has questionable quarterbacking evokes this kind of drama. Long time football fans know that while you don't need a great QB to be a great team, the position that makes the most impact on a team is the quarterback. A half a decade into a QB's career the best anyone can say is that they believe in Carr's potential. No problem with that, but tell me, why are you paying a premium price for spec? The first contract is based on speculation and the out in the contract was built in for a reason. The average career of an NFL player is nearly 5 years. How many careers does it take to make a decision about your quarterback? NFL teams have to make decisions about how you pay for play quicker and more intuitively than this. After his first 3 years Bob McNair had to go out and pay $300k to Reeves to convince him that he should keep Carr despite all the red flags. Why pay Reeves? Because Casserly already ruined your franchise start with such bad judgment. Fans can also see that when Tony Banks and Sage Rosenfels was in the game we actually had an intermediate passing game despite the fact that they are both NFL journeymen. I think the fans are more frustrated at management than they are at Carr. Carr just takes the brunt of it. Who of us wouldn't have singed an extension to extend our payday to 60 million dollars for largely mediocre play over the first 3 seasons?

Texan_Bill
12-20-2006, 04:53 PM
Who of us wouldn't have singed an extension to extend our payday to 60 million dollars for largely mediocre play over the first 3 seasons?

Sign me up ASAP!!

Texan Asylum
12-20-2006, 04:56 PM
Every fan base that has questionable quarterbacking evokes this kind of drama. Long time football fans know that while you don't need a great QB to be a great team, the position that makes the most impact on a team is the quarterback. A half a decade into a QB's career the best anyone can say is that they believe in Carr's potential. No problem with that, but tell me, why are you paying a premium price for spec? The first contract is based on speculation and the out in the contract was built in for a reason. The average career of an NFL player is nearly 5 years. How many careers does it take to make a decision about your quarterback? NFL teams have to make decisions about how you pay for play quicker and more intuitively than this. After his first 3 years Bob McNair had to go out and pay $300k to Reeves to convince him that he should keep Carr despite all the red flags. Why pay Reeves? Because Casserly already ruined your franchise start with such bad judgment. Fans can also see that when Tony Banks and Sage Rosenfels was in the game we actually had an intermediate passing game despite the fact that they are both NFL journeymen. I think the fans are more frustrated at management than they are at Carr. Carr just takes the brunt of it. Who of us wouldn't have singed an extension to extend our payday to 60 million dollars for largely mediocre play over the first 3 seasons?
And immediate...That's some SERIOUS points to ponder. :hmmm:

Napa Auto Parts
12-20-2006, 08:37 PM
I lived in NY and Philly...those "fans" are hard on the QBs. Carr wouldn't have last this long there.


i know you listen to some philly fans some of them are giving up on mcnabb because of his recent injuries and he's a playmaker i can only wonder if they had a useless david carr as the QB they would probable have a hit out on him.:stirpot:

TexansLucky13
12-20-2006, 08:41 PM
Ya'll are right. Sage Rosenfels would have put AJ, Moulds and Daniels into the Pro Bowl with his passing expertise. Oh, and since QBs control the defense, DeMeco would have beaten out Zach Thomas as well.

:loser

Texan1
12-20-2006, 08:44 PM
I think 5 years is more than enough trial time for a QB on any given team. No one (Carr or the fans) would have any sore feelings about moving in a new direction.

Would Vince have been given 5 years to prove himself... for some reason I don't think so... I like Carr, but he has had plenty of chances here. It would be best for both to part ways. That being said, if he stays - I hope he plays well for the Texans.

Grid
12-20-2006, 10:12 PM
I can understand the F.O.'s decision to keep Carr.. I mean you have a new Coach coming in with a new staff.. the last thing you want to do is pile on a quarterback controversy to really make things chaotic.

But they shouldnt have given him the extension. Should have signed him to a new contract..one that was a bit more reasonable. On the other hand, if they had done that it would have undercut his confidence. I know people will scoff at that comment, but its true. They are/were trying to build him back up.. and its kinda hard to say "You are the guy, we can make this happen with you if you work hard, we have faith in you!... now.. how about we sign you to a 1 year contract instead of that nasty old extension".

Napa Auto Parts
12-21-2006, 01:08 AM
I can understand the F.O.'s decision to keep Carr.. I mean you have a new Coach coming in with a new staff.. the last thing you want to do is pile on a quarterback controversy to really make things chaotic.

But they shouldnt have given him the extension. Should have signed him to a new contract..one that was a bit more reasonable. On the other hand, if they had done that it would have undercut his confidence. I know people will scoff at that comment, but its true. They are/were trying to build him back up.. and its kinda hard to say "You are the guy, we can make this happen with you if you work hard, we have faith in you!... now.. how about we sign you to a 1 year contract instead of that nasty old extension".


We could of let him hit free agency and got david for about 800,000 i was never againts keeping carr but just not to that awfull bonus we could of had him or pennies on the dollars.:tearup:

dbspi
12-21-2006, 01:29 AM
Carr is not the right quarterback for the Texans and we need to find our future quarterback this off season.

TexansFan99
12-21-2006, 08:25 AM
i know you listen to some philly fans some of them are giving up on mcnabb because of his recent injuries and he's a playmaker i can only wonder if they had a useless david carr as the QB they would probable have a hit out on him.:stirpot:

We are pretty tolerant here in Houston.....5 years of a mediocre QB and we are wondering if we are being too hard on him...Throw da bum out!

Grid
12-21-2006, 11:28 AM
We could of let him hit free agency and got david for about 800,000 i was never againts keeping carr but just not to that awfull bonus we could of had him or pennies on the dollars.:tearup:

We would have had a hard time re-signing Carr if we had let him become a free agent.

Dont let the attitude here in our forums fool you, Carr was still (and really IS still) looked at as a promising young QB. He would have gotten a lot of offers, and it would have been hard to convince him to come back to the place where he broke the sack record.

Goldeagle
12-21-2006, 11:34 AM
Is Houston too hard on the QB?I have been a fan of Houston's NFL teams since the early70's. I recall Pastorini being called Pass da Weenie! I was a season tickect holder the first 3 years Moon signed in Houston. I had to endure many Sunday's with N-bombs and some guy who thought himself clever by replcing the m in Moon and replacing it with a C. I am sure Moon did not find that funny!
So where does that put Carr and the response he is receiving now?Is Carr the main short coming of this offense? Which came first the chicken or the egg? If a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? What say you?
:shades:

According to my friends in other cities... Houston fans are fair weathered and ignorant.

axman40
12-21-2006, 03:29 PM
According to my friends in other cities... Houston fans are fair weathered and ignorant.
Fair weather I can see but I have to disagree with ignorant.

:fans:

Silver Oak
12-21-2006, 03:41 PM
back to topic....

I'm old enough to remember fans griping about Pastorini's love for the long bomb, and never throwing short stuff. Seems like we have just the opposite situation now.

Anyways, I doubt there's an NFL QB that doesn't know how hard the job will be coming in to it.

Vinny
12-21-2006, 03:44 PM
back to topic....

I'm old enough to remember fans griping about Pastorini's love for the long bomb, and never throwing short stuff. Seems like we have just the opposite situation now.

Anyways, I doubt there's an NFL QB that doesn't know how hard the job will be coming in to it.
I donno if you are remembering that right. Dan threw 57 passes to running back Fred Willis in 1973 (I remember Fred was productive cause I had a 44 Oilers jersey) :). Dan took heat but I don't remember that as a knock specifically. In the 70's the long ball was in fashion and you could beat up the wr's all over the field so it was certainly a different game...but Pastorini did take a ton of abuse. He once called the Houston fans "fickle"

the wonger need food
12-21-2006, 03:50 PM
Fair weather I can see but I have to disagree with ignorant.

:fans:

That's just his underhanded way of saying since we think Carr is horrible and needs to go that we're ignorant.

The reality of it is there are 3 or 4 levels of fandom in every city. The hard core people that make every effort to know everything about their team. The fair weather people that will jump on board when a team wins. And people like this guy who are infatuated with one player and don't really care if the rest of the team is successful.

Goldeagle
12-21-2006, 03:55 PM
Fair weather I can see but I have to disagree with ignorant.

:fans:

They also dont see our Owners as "wanting" to win.

Double Barrel
12-21-2006, 03:59 PM
They also dont see our Owners as "wanting" to win.

They can "see" what they want to see. Alexander has two championships, and McLane has a WS appearance (with a very winning team the past 10 years, too). McNair is just a noob and the Texans are only five years old.

We can generalize about every city's fans and their owners, but I won't, because generalizations are the sign of weak minded individuals.

Silver Oak
12-21-2006, 05:58 PM
I donno if you are remembering that right. Dan threw 57 passes to running back Fred Willis in 1973 (I remember Fred was productive cause I had a 44 Oilers jersey) :). Dan took heat but I don't remember that as a knock specifically. In the 70's the long ball was in fashion and you could beat up the wr's all over the field so it was certainly a different game...but Pastorini did take a ton of abuse. He once called the Houston fans "fickle"

Granted, I was pretty young, but I do recall Dante taking heat for 3 long passes and out. Maybe we're recalling different parts of the Oilers in that era.

That said, Pastorini was who I wanted to be when neighborhood kids got together to play ball.

axman40
12-21-2006, 06:10 PM
Here is Dante's career numbers:

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1971 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1971.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1971.htm) | 14 | 127 270 47.0 1702 6.3 7 21 | 26 140 3 |
| 1972 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1972.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1972.htm) | 14 | 144 299 48.2 1711 5.7 7 12 | 38 205 2 |
| 1973 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1973.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1973.htm) | 14 | 154 290 53.1 1482 5.1 5 17 | 31 102 0 |
| 1974 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1974.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1974.htm) | 11 | 140 247 56.7 1571 6.4 10 10 | 24 -6 0 |
| 1975 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1975.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1975.htm) | 14 | 163 342 47.7 2053 6.0 14 16 | 23 97 1 |
| 1976 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1976.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1976.htm) | 13 | 167 309 54.0 1795 5.8 10 10 | 11 45 0 |
| 1977 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1977.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1977.htm) | 14 | 169 319 53.0 1987 6.2 13 18 | 18 39 2 |
| 1978 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1978.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1978.htm) | 16 | 199 368 54.1 2473 6.7 16 17 | 18 11 0 |
| 1979 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1979.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1979.htm) | 15 | 163 324 50.3 2090 6.5 14 18 | 15 23 0 |
| 1980 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1980.htm) oak (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rai1980.htm) | 5 | 66 130 50.8 932 7.2 5 8 | 4 24 0 |
| 1981 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1981.htm) ram (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram1981.htm) | 7 | 64 152 42.1 719 4.7 2 14 | 7 5 0 |
| 1983 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1983.htm) phi (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi1983.htm) | 3 | 0 5 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 | 1 0 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 140 | 1556 3055 50.9 18515 6.1 103 161 | 216 685 8 |
:ok:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/PastDa00.htm

axman40
12-21-2006, 06:12 PM
David Carr:


+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 2002 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2002.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx2002.htm) | 16 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/CarrDa00.htm#2002) | 233 444 52.5 2592 5.8 9 15 | 59 282 3 |
| 2003 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2003.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx2003.htm) | 12 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/CarrDa00.htm#2003) | 167 295 56.6 2013 6.8 9 13 | 27 151 2 |
| 2004 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2004.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx2004.htm) | 16 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/CarrDa00.htm#2004) | 285 466 61.2 3531 7.6 16 14 | 73 299 0 |
| 2005 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2005.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx2005.htm) | 16 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/CarrDa00.htm#2005) | 256 423 60.5 2488 5.9 14 11 | 56 308 1 |
| 2006 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2006.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/htx2006.htm) | 14 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/games/CarrDa00.htm#2006) | 277 404 68.6 2516 6.2 10 11 | 47 187 2 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 74 | 1218 2032 59.9 13140 6.5 58 64 | 262 1227 8 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
:cowboy1:

Vinny
12-21-2006, 06:15 PM
It's hard to compare era's axman. The rules of the game aren't the same. You could knock WR's all over the field back then and there was no in the grasp rules. Today you can't touch a wr after 5 yards and you can't touch a QB unless he has the ball and its over the knees and below the shoulder pads. The guy's stats at the bottom of my post is hall of famer Joe Namath.

Here is Dante's career numbers:

+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1971 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1971.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1971.htm) | 14 | 127 270 47.0 1702 6.3 7 21 | 26 140 3 |
| 1972 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1972.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1972.htm) | 14 | 144 299 48.2 1711 5.7 7 12 | 38 205 2 |
| 1973 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1973.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1973.htm) | 14 | 154 290 53.1 1482 5.1 5 17 | 31 102 0 |
| 1974 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1974.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1974.htm) | 11 | 140 247 56.7 1571 6.4 10 10 | 24 -6 0 |
| 1975 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1975.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1975.htm) | 14 | 163 342 47.7 2053 6.0 14 16 | 23 97 1 |
| 1976 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1976.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1976.htm) | 13 | 167 309 54.0 1795 5.8 10 10 | 11 45 0 |
| 1977 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1977.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1977.htm) | 14 | 169 319 53.0 1987 6.2 13 18 | 18 39 2 |
| 1978 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1978.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1978.htm) | 16 | 199 368 54.1 2473 6.7 16 17 | 18 11 0 |
| 1979 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1979.htm) hou (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/oti1979.htm) | 15 | 163 324 50.3 2090 6.5 14 18 | 15 23 0 |
| 1980 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1980.htm) oak (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rai1980.htm) | 5 | 66 130 50.8 932 7.2 5 8 | 4 24 0 |
| 1981 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1981.htm) ram (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram1981.htm) | 7 | 64 152 42.1 719 4.7 2 14 | 7 5 0 |
| 1983 (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1983.htm) phi (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/phi1983.htm) | 3 | 0 5 0.0 0 0.0 0 0 | 1 0 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 140 | 1556 3055 50.9 18515 6.1 103 161 | 216 685 8 |
:ok:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/PastDa00.htm

Joe Namath


| Passing | Rushing |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| Year TM | G | Comp Att PCT YD Y/A TD INT | Att Yards TD |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| 1965 nyj | 13 | 164 340 48.2 2220 6.5 18 15 | 8 19 0 |
| 1966 nyj | 14 | 232 471 49.3 3379 7.2 19 27 | 6 42 2 |
| 1967 nyj | 14 | 258 491 52.5 4007 8.2 26 28 | 6 14 0 |
| 1968 nyj | 14 | 187 380 49.2 3147 8.3 15 17 | 5 11 2 |
| 1969 nyj | 14 | 185 361 51.2 2734 7.6 19 17 | 11 33 2 |
| 1970 nyj | 5 | 90 179 50.3 1259 7.0 5 12 | 1 -1 0 |
| 1971 nyj | 4 | 28 59 47.5 537 9.1 5 6 | 3 -1 0 |
| 1972 nyj | 13 | 162 324 50.0 2816 8.7 19 21 | 6 8 0 |
| 1973 nyj | 6 | 68 133 51.1 966 7.3 5 6 | 1 -2 0 |
| 1974 nyj | 14 | 191 361 52.9 2616 7.2 20 22 | 8 1 1 |
| 1975 nyj | 14 | 157 326 48.2 2286 7.0 15 28 | 10 6 0 |
| 1976 nyj | 11 | 114 230 49.6 1090 4.7 4 16 | 2 5 0 |
| 1977 ram | 4 | 50 107 46.7 606 5.7 3 5 | 4 5 0 |
+----------+-----+---------------------------------------+-----------------+
| TOTAL | 140 | 1886 3762 50.1 27663 7.4 173 220 | 71 140 7

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/NamaJo00.htm

Silver Oak
12-21-2006, 06:22 PM
so a 50.9% career passer?

Vinny
12-21-2006, 06:34 PM
so a 50.9% career passer?It was still better than Joe Namaths....but like I said, it was a different era with different rules. You can't compare stats from different eras.

aj.
12-21-2006, 06:51 PM
All I know is that I had a hell of a lot more fun watching the post Gilman Pastorini led Oilers - even in the 2-3 years pre-Earl - than I've had in the last two Texans seasons.

I loved watching Moon over the years and never heard a racial slur or anything else personally derogatory in the stands - other than play related stuff - and I was at every game he played at the Dome. Just like the beer on Carr's wife incident, I think some of this stuff is more isolated than not and it tends to gain more legend as the years go by.

We (and Carr) need to move on.