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thunderkyss
12-19-2006, 07:54 AM
...... we've got issues in several areas of this team. One of which, is the offensive line. We've had this issue since the beginning, and it doesn't appear to be getting any better.

I'd like to take this thread, and go through a few of the bad OL play.

In an effort to keep this thread clean..... and of interest to everyone, let's please refrain from mentioning any player that is not on the OL. TEs are fair game since a lot of their job is blocking.

There are two plays in particular that I'd like to talk about.

1) One of the two sacks in the second Qtr. the defender came up the middle of the line, and got to our QB. We looked to have a numbers advantage on the left side, with Owen, Salaam, & Pitts in to block.... and only one defender to account for. But as soon as the ball snapped, we were outnumbered three to one, as Owen & Pitts blocked(they really tackled him) Salaam, allowing Richard Seymour(I'm pretty sure) an unempeded path into our backfield.

2) Still in the second Qtr..... I formation, Twins formation to the right. At the snap, the fullback runs out into the field off the weakside. Dayne comes up and gets a good block on the rushing Linebacker.... You can see Pitts & Hogdon leak out to block(It's a screen).

Dayne comes off his Block.... catches the ball, then runs upfield. By the time you see Pitts again, he is laying on the ground, after trying to cut block a LB in the open field....... You see Hogdon in front of Dayne, and he tries to put a block on said linebacker..... Hogdon actually prevents the LB from making the play..... but the Lineman trailing Hogdon from the LOS has caught Dayne from behind, as the safety comes down to hit Dayne.

on play #1..... I know I can't prove it, but it looks like two people on our team conspired against the good will of the team....... I've suspected Pitts of this for some time, and wonder why he is still starting.

on play #2.... why would our 6'5" lineman be trying to cutblock a LB in the open field... Usually, it's the LB at an obvious size/power disadvantage who tries to cutblock the bigger, stronger lineman. But I believe Pitts wiffed on that play as well........ a strong accusation, but if you have the ability to go back and look, it will be plain as day.

I understand he has been a big part of us running so well off the right side(when we pull him)......... but the plays I've mentioned aren't the only ones I've seen this year, where Pitts is not playing his best, & he looks like he is missing blocks on purpose.

thunderkyss
12-19-2006, 11:46 AM
ahem.....

Honoring Earl 34
12-19-2006, 12:10 PM
TK ... I won't leave you hanging . If we're getting rid of Carr to start anew ... I say Pitts and McKinney pack up also .

Those two have been here the whole time and if your gonna clean house ... clean house . Thats two players of one of the worst lines in history and they get paid pretty good .

SESupergenius
12-19-2006, 12:35 PM
I'll go you one more. Why can't we get 1 yard on a crucial third down. 1 stinking yard. how many times have we seen this. Our offensive line has never been able to smash mouth our opponent.

Honoring Earl 34
12-19-2006, 12:52 PM
Sometimes it boils down to who wants that yard ... our guys have had made for 5 years now .

HOU-TEX
12-19-2006, 01:34 PM
TK ... I won't leave you hanging . If we're getting rid of Carr to start anew ... I say Pitts and McKinney pack up also .

Those two have been here the whole time and if your gonna clean house ... clean house . Thats two players of one of the worst lines in history and they get paid pretty good .

I think we'd hang on to Pitts. He's given up a few plays, but he's done as well as any other guard would do on this line. I think if we solidify our two Tackle positions and maybe the Center position, we'd notice a night and day difference between 06 and 07.:)

thunderkyss
12-19-2006, 03:04 PM
I think we'd hang on to Pitts. He's given up a few plays, but he's done as well as any other guard would do on this line. I think if we solidify our two Tackle positions and maybe the Center position, we'd notice a night and day difference between 06 and 07.:)

OK.... maybe I'm being a little too coy about the situation, so I'll come out and say it.

He isn't missing a few plays... There are several plays throughout this year, that I have recorded(I din't record any of last years games, but I noticed them then as well), but the guy is missing blocks, and it looks to be on purpose.

At first, I thought he din't like David, or David said something in the huddle that rubbed him the wrong way, but on that running play I described, & several others like that, it looks like he is trying to miss.

Honoring Earl 34
12-19-2006, 03:09 PM
I looked at how OLs are built . NE has mid round picks ... they are'nt anything special on paper . They lost what was their best OL in Woody a couple of years ago ... they can plug in players and keep going .

I wonder how much Brady affects their OL . Does he make adjustments at the line ... I just can't see our line problems being just a lack of talent .

HOU-TEX
12-19-2006, 03:12 PM
OK.... maybe I'm being a little too coy about the situation, so I'll come out and say it.

He isn't missing a few plays... There are several plays throughout this year, that I have recorded(I din't record any of last years games, but I noticed them then as well), but the guy is missing blocks, and it looks to be on purpose.

At first, I thought he din't like David, or David said something in the huddle that rubbed him the wrong way, but on that running play I described, & several others like that, it looks like he is trying to miss.

You can have your opinion. I'll stick with mine. The whole conspiracy theory's kinda bogus to me.:)

Texans Horror
12-19-2006, 03:22 PM
I think we'd hang on to Pitts. He's given up a few plays, but he's done as well as any other guard would do on this line. I think if we solidify our two Tackle positions and maybe the Center position, we'd notice a night and day difference between 06 and 07.:)

Ha! I remember hearing this last year...

I think the Texans have to get a new Center. That doesn't come easily through FA (see: Flanagan), and Hodgdon isn't working out.

IMO, the Texans will keep the rest. The line will be Spencer/Pitts/New Center/Weary or McKinney/Winston

After a game and a half of play, I don't think they are ready to call Spencer a bust. However, the Texans could do some wheeling and dealing to get a Veteran LT in case Spencer is re-injured. Salaam did not fix the missing LT hole this year.

Flanagan will be retained as a backup, or he could be starting if the Center the Texans take is very raw, like Winston. I doubt that, though. I think one year of this crud was too much for Kubiak, and he is going to want an answer for the line.

I know I may be dragged through the streets for saying this, but my man Winston is looking good. He's a very raw rookie, and I think he is already playing better than Salaam (not saying much), but he is moving in the right direction and is going to make a great right tackle.

The guards are as good as you could expect. They are mediocre, which says a lot on this team, and there are too many issues to deal with replacing them.

SESupergenius
12-19-2006, 05:42 PM
Ok it's not the coaching, we let go of Capers. It's not the scheme because we ditched the 3-4 and tossed out Palmer and Pendry. It's not the GM we let him go too. It's not Carr because now we are blaming the o-line.

How long licks does it take to get to the center of our problems? No pun intended.

Zac
12-19-2006, 07:34 PM
I'm with you guys.

The clean up starts with Chester Pitts and Steve McKinney. Those guys had all of the time to impose their will on the offensive line.

Carr, Pitts, and Mckinney just have never progressed!!!

thunderkyss
12-19-2006, 07:59 PM
Ok it's not the coaching, we let go of Capers. It's not the scheme because we ditched the 3-4 and tossed out Palmer and Pendry. It's not the GM we let him go too. It's not Carr because now we are blaming the o-line.

How long licks does it take to get to the center of our problems? No pun intended.

See..... that's part of the problem right there. Just because I point out two plays where a particular player played poorly... or just did not do what they were supposed to, does not mean I am blaming that person...... or that I'm blaming the OL for anything.

2002, 2003, 2004.......... 2006 every year, we took steps to improve the OL.....

but the results are always the same...... that should make anyone think that we may have problems behind the line as well.

Ibar_Harry
12-19-2006, 08:13 PM
OK.... maybe I'm being a little too coy about the situation, so I'll come out and say it.

He isn't missing a few plays... There are several plays throughout this year, that I have recorded(I din't record any of last years games, but I noticed them then as well), but the guy is missing blocks, and it looks to be on purpose.

At first, I thought he din't like David, or David said something in the huddle that rubbed him the wrong way, but on that running play I described, & several others like that, it looks like he is trying to miss.


I find this interesting, because I have said over the past few years I did not want Wand playing next to Pitts. I though Pitts wanted the LT job. Its funny how you feel about someone and their actions, but I have not liked Pitts for a long time. May be I'm finally not the only one beginning to question Pitts. If you recall Kubiak pulled him and was talking about a 3 guard rotation. Where there is smoke there is fire.

TexanBorn51
12-19-2006, 08:51 PM
That O-Line IMO will be better and much improved for next year. Reasons are the rookies injured and non-injured will have a year under their belt under the new system. The vets will be evaluated and will stay, be traded, or FA. The FA soon will bring OL linemen to the table for selection. Then we have the draft that will probably bring in OL within the five rounds. All the time on these forums I read alot about this Carr removal he sucks theme after so many years and replacing him will do all the wonders for this team and turn a new page. There are several needs to fill. Who would have ever thought to have so many key year ending injuries for the first year new system. . IMO I've been a Houston fan since 65 and seen a few pages turned but well in this situation the franchise and fans must think tomorrow not yesteryear. With Kube and co.(that is the new page) and a first year with a revolving structure of a team that is almost half new in players we have to give them the reasonable time. I know once again many are saying yeah yeah yeah again and again and again but we as fans have burdened this franchise up and down but the coaches behind all these players just got here and they should be allowed the chance to work with what was given to them. Next year will probably be so much interesting in direction and production. OL, DL, CB, RB, and still have a grooming QB for the future.

Goldeagle
12-19-2006, 08:58 PM
Its sad that this organization has done very little to resolve the O-line issues. Carr or not, this area still needs to be improved to get that easy 3rd and 1 or give WHOEVER is going to be back there more than 2.4 seconds (Texans average last year compared to the NFL League of 4.8 seconds) to scan the field, find a receiver and throw the ball.


Spencer was a good pick, Winston Im 50/50 on, but its time to grab a good Guard in Free Agency (Steinbach from the Bengals) and draft at least 4 O-lineman in this draft (Heck I say all picks and hope to get 2 decent guys).

Erratic Assassin
12-19-2006, 09:25 PM
the guy is missing blocks, and it looks to be on purpose.

Pitts has said on several occassions over the years that he HATES playing guard because guards get beat up too much on the inside. He has said repeatedly that he's more comfortable playing LT.

Kubiak/ Sherman are trying to force a square peg into a round hole. They have not put Pitts in a position to succeed. They are blinded by their pre-conceived notions (i.e. Pitts looks like a guard, therefore guard must be his best position. Kind of like Ryan Leaf looked more like an NFL QB than Peyton Manning therefore Leaf must be the better NFL prospect)

Goldeagle
12-19-2006, 09:44 PM
If hes missing blocks on purpose he needs to go!

keyser
12-19-2006, 11:38 PM
There was one other O-line play I noticed. It was on one of the sacks - either the first or second, and happened in the 1st quarter after NE had a 17-0 lead. New England blitzed two LBs, one on the right (outside Winston), one on the middle/right between their NT and DE. On the left, Salaam blocked the DE and Pitts just stood around with no one to block. Hodgdon took the NT, the guard (McKinney? - I'll assume so) gave a quick block on the DE, then released him to the outside and blocked the inside LB. Winston blocked the outside LB, and while blocking him also got a hand on the DE after McKinney released him, but just barely slowed him up - the DE ran right through and sacked Carr, who was still dropping back.

I don't know enough about blocking, but something definitely went wrong there with the blitz pickup. It seemed like everyone was doing what they intended, and given the people that each person blocked, there's not much more that could have been done. So it makes me think that the blocking assignments were wrong. I'd love to hear from someone who knows about how this should work:
- Is it the center's responsibility to make the assignments? - in this case it seems it would be Hodgdon's fault.
- Does each player sort of react situationally depending on what they see? - in this case, it might be a coaching problem.
- Should Pitts have done something once he realized he had no one to block directly (e.g. shifted to the right), or is he supposed to just stay there in case.
- Is the QB supposed to tell them who to block? (I'm not trying to turn this into a Carr thread - I'm genuinely curious).

thunderkyss
12-20-2006, 01:00 AM
Yeah..... on that one, David motioned the tightend to the right..... after the tightend motioned, the Pats called off their blitz.... after seeing that, David motioned Dayne out of the backfield. After that, the Pats called a different Blitz. Winston noticed it, you can see him point out the LB....

At this point, I believe, Hogdon or David should have acknowledged what Winston pointed out, but neither made it apparrent that they saw what Winston saw.

If they had called it, the OL would have all moved to that side, picking up a guy on their right, everyone would have been accounted for. Pitts standing there doing nothing is what he was supposed to do if no one called those blitzers.

If we assume David was on the ball, and noticed it, he would've acknowleged the free blitzer, if the reciever was aware, he would have ran a hot route to expose the inherant weakness of that particular blitz.

Weary(I'm pretty sure that was Weary) & Winston did a fair job of chipping the DE..... it wasn't a free run to the QB.

At the very least, had David noticed what Winston was pointing out just 8 feet from David's head, he should have called a timeout.

That was great scheming by the Pats......

& I think we should have known better than to sit there so long before the snap, giving them so much time to shift & move, and confuse us. We really should have walked up to the line, and snapped the ball before they figured out what was going on. Dayne was killing them anyway, we should have kept them on their heels.

Texans86
12-20-2006, 01:42 AM
Who was the starting OL for the first game of the season (and in which order), and how many of them have gone down or missed time due to injury. Both tackles have been out, Weary goes in and out, and Flannagan has been in and out this year. Pitts is the only player on the line to stay on the line. We need to find some consistancy. I don't care who's out there, but it would be nice to see at least 3, if not 4 of the starters actually start on the line for 14 or more games. Is that at all an unreasonable request?

ATX
12-20-2006, 02:02 AM
Do Munchak or Mathews have sons?

threetoedpete
12-20-2006, 02:07 AM
Nope I'm with ya. Bad year all around. Sometimes the injury bug bites certain positions. This year it was the one position that they could ill afford to be bitten. Saw Flannagan coming. Posted that in August. Said we only had one true OLT on the roster and if he got hurt, we'd be in the tolliet. Saying it again this off season no one wants to hear it. Oh well. One of these years they'll fix it. Times on our side . Only so many QBs you can go through befor they have an ephinany. Hasn't worked in five years. Maybe this is our off season.

threetoedpete
12-20-2006, 02:09 AM
Do Munchak or Mathews have sons?

No see and that is the problem....both of those guys were day one round one picks. We haven't done that yet. Maybe this year ?

keyser
12-20-2006, 10:23 AM
Yeah..... on that one, David motioned the tightend to the right.....

...

That was great scheming by the Pats......

& I think we should have known better than to sit there so long before the snap, giving them so much time to shift & move, and confuse us. We really should have walked up to the line, and snapped the ball before they figured out what was going on. Dayne was killing them anyway, we should have kept them on their heels.


Cool - thanks for the detailed reply! I learned something, and I'd add reputation, but I get a message about needing to spread it around.

thunderkyss
12-20-2006, 12:39 PM
Who was the starting OL for the first game of the season (and in which order), and how many of them have gone down or missed time due to injury. Both tackles have been out, Weary goes in and out, and Flannagan has been in and out this year. Pitts is the only player on the line to stay on the line. We need to find some consistancy. I don't care who's out there, but it would be nice to see at least 3, if not 4 of the starters actually start on the line for 14 or more games. Is that at all an unreasonable request?

I hear what you are saying. & you've got a point..... kinda.

Spencer was a rookie.... If he'd have played better than Salaam, it would have been icing on the cake, see D'Brickshaw Ferguson, or Robert Galloway. It's possible that he could have been a standout(e.g. MarcusMcneil??), but we don't know that.

Hogdon is playing as well as Flanagan, if not better. Factor in his age, and for me it becomes a plus..... next year, he should do really well for us.

Weary is an upgrade over McKinney.......... period.

Winston.... while Weigart was our best run blocking lineman, I'm sold that Winston will be our RT next year(unless Spencer can't make it back to LT, then we'll probably move Winston to the left side).... Especially since we've been pulling Pitts around the right side, and he's doing well there, as much as Weigart ever did.

Assuming Winston will stay on the Right side, and Spencer comes back 100%, I'd say those positions are locked.... same with Pitts(even though I question where his head is) & Weary. Hogdon can still be upgraded, IMHO but I doubt we'll start a rookie Center(I believe Mangold to be an anomoly(sp))

So I can see us drafting Linemen next year, but I doubt earlier than the 4th round, and they will not start early in the year, if at all.

real
12-20-2006, 12:56 PM
I hear what you are saying. & you've got a point..... kinda.

Spencer was a rookie.... If he'd have played better than Salaam, it would have been icing on the cake, see D'Brickshaw Ferguson, or Robert Galloway. It's possible that he could have been a standout(e.g. MarcusMcneil??), but we don't know that.

Hogdon is playing as well as Flanagan, if not better. Factor in his age, and for me it becomes a plus..... next year, he should do really well for us.

Weary is an upgrade over McKinney.......... period.

Winston.... while Weigart was our best run blocking lineman, I'm sold that Winston will be our RT next year(unless Spencer can't make it back to LT, then we'll probably move Winston to the left side).... Especially since we've been pulling Pitts around the right side, and he's doing well there, as much as Weigart ever did.

Assuming Winston will stay on the Right side, and Spencer comes back 100%, I'd say those positions are locked.... same with Pitts(even though I question where his head is) & Weary. Hogdon can still be upgraded, IMHO but I doubt we'll start a rookie Center(I believe Mangold to be an anomoly(sp))

So I can see us drafting Linemen next year, but I doubt earlier than the 4th round, and they will not start early in the year, if at all.

I think that's kinda been my point on the whole O-line thing...

I think that when healthy our line is pretty good, and IMVHO(V is for very), I think that when we are completely healthy we have pretty good depth...Think about it....If our line is Spencer,Pitts,Hogdon,Weary,Winston next year we'll have Mckinney, Salaam, Wiegert, and Flannagan as quality depth.... Im not totally against drafting a LT in the first, but first off, I doubt we'll be in position to get joe Thomas, and as I've stated, I think that we have enough talent there to wait until rds 3-5 to start looking OL....JMO.....

If I were the Texans, going into this off-season, the main upgrades I would look at is FS, RB, and LB....Second tier would be OL,P....Next would be DL,QB,K

Texans Horror
12-20-2006, 01:02 PM
I think that's kinda been my point on the whole O-line thing...

I think that when healthy our line is pretty good, and IMVHO(V is for very), I think that when we are completely healthy we have pretty good depth...Think about it....If our line is Spencer,Pitts,Hogdon,Weary,Winston next year we'll have Mckinney, Salaam, Wiegert, and Flannagan as quality depth.... Im not totally against drafting a LT in the first, but first off, I doubt we'll be in position to get joe Thomas, and as I've stated, I think that we have enough talent there to wait until rds 3-5 to start looking OL....JMO

I disagree with you on the depth because I think Salaam, Weigert, McKinney, and Flannagan have played poorly this year and I don't like the prospect of them backing anyone up. Besides, as injury-plagued as the Texans' line usually is, I could see these guys starting full-time by the fourth game, and we're back in the same mess we had this year.

I expect Salaam and Weigert at a minimum to be gone. If Sherman leaves, then Flannagan, too. I expect big money to be put into a backup Tackle (cause that is what will be needed and they can't assume Spencer to be healthy the entire year) and a draft position to be dumped into the Center position.

TexansLucky13
12-20-2006, 01:12 PM
We have an O-line? Dang, I didn't even notice! Seems like defensive players roam free all around David.

real
12-20-2006, 01:13 PM
I disagree with you on the depth because I think Salaam, Weigert, McKinney, and Flannagan have played poorly this year and I don't like the prospect of them backing anyone up. Besides, as injury-plagued as the Texans' line usually is, I could see these guys starting full-time by the fourth game, and we're back in the same mess we had this year.

I expect Salaam and Weigert at a minimum to be gone. If Sherman leaves, then Flannagan, too. I expect big money to be put into a backup Tackle (cause that is what will be needed and they can't assume Spencer to be healthy the entire year) and a draft position to be dumped into the Center position.


The only player on the my projected starting line that I listed that has been injured is Spencer....If by time the draft rolls around, the Texans have decided Spencer is healthy enough to play LT I seriously doubt we use a first rd. pick as possible "depth".....

Im not sure what, or why you are arguing.....


If the line is as I projected Spencer, Pitts, Hogdon,Weary,Winston...

With McKinney,Salaam,Flannagan,Wiegert backing them up, how do you justify using a first rd. pick on an O-lineman?

Even if One or two of the projected depth guys isn't here like Salaam, or Flannagan we should be able to get quality depth in rds. 3-5....

The only way I see the Texans drafting Joe Thomas is if we know Spencer won't be the same or close to it...I Just don't see OL as a position where we need to aquire first rd. talent right now....I think we'd be better served picking up quality depth in the mid rds....

Texans Horror
12-20-2006, 01:25 PM
The only player on the my projected starting line that I listed that has been injured is Spencer....If by time the draft rolls around, the Texans have decided Spencer is healthy enough to play LT I seriously doubt we use a first rd. pick as possible "depth".....

Im not sure what, or why you are arguing.....


If the line is as I projected Spencer, Pitts, Hogdon,Weary,Winston...

With McKinney,Salaam,Flannagan,Wiegert backing them up, how do you justify using a first rd. pick on an O-lineman?

Even if One or two of the projected depth guys isn't here like Salaam, or Flannagan we should be able to get quality depth in rds. 3-5....

The only way I see the Texans drafting Joe Thomas is if we know Spencer won't be the same or close to it...I Just don't see OL as a position where we need to aquire first rd. talent right now....I think we'd be better served picking up quality depth in the mid rds....

I am only disagreeing with you about line depth. I have been dissatisfied with the performances of the players you listed as back-ups, that is all.

You have a great line set up there, and I am not saying that a first rounder should go into a lineman. But from what I have seen and heard, IMO, Hogdon is not the future center of the Houston Texans. The question then is who is the future center of the Houston Texans, and that is why I expect a draft position (not necessarily a first-rounder - Denver drafted linemen in later rounds) to be spent on the Center. So I agree with you on drafting in the later rounds.

sleepwalker
12-20-2006, 01:28 PM
Good post thunder.

We need veteran leader on this line....Drafting more rookies isnt going to help us next year...We already have Spencer and Winston.

I hope we make a free agency move, if we can even find one for the OL.

I like the way the Patriots attacked the perimeter of our defense with their screen passes...They made some very good open field blocks.

Texan_Bill
12-20-2006, 01:30 PM
I would not have a problem starting the 2007 season with this line-up: Spencer, Pitts, Hogdon,Weary,Winston

That "depth" is getting pretty old though...

Wiegert - 34
Flannagan - 33
McKinney - 31
Salaam - 30

I'm not suggesting that this would cause me to want to use a first rounder for an OL, so I agree that depth on the O-line can be achieved in later rounds...

texans83
12-20-2006, 01:32 PM
what quality centers are out there for the draft that we can have start right away

real
12-20-2006, 01:34 PM
I am only disagreeing with you about line depth. I have been dissatisfied with the performances of the players you listed as back-ups, that is all.



I'm not satisfied with their performances either....

But I think you are viewing the possibilities of next year like they will follow the same patterns as this year....For instance: I don't expect 4 of the guys we started the season with to not be starting by the midway mark....Which means, that if one guy gets hurt such as Weary...You'd be looking at Spencer,Pitts, Hogdon,McKinney,Winston...two guys get hurt Weary, and Spencer....Salaam, Pitts, Hogdon, Mckinney, Winston.....

I wouldn't plan on having multiple injuries a long the line...I wouldn't look at my second unit collectively, but rather individually as fill in guys....and IMO, Mckinney, Salaam,Flannagan, and Wiegert would be more than capable of replacing someone if that person went down.....And I know that one of those guys might leave us but insert some 2-5 rd guys in their place is all I'm saying....

real
12-20-2006, 01:35 PM
But still having said all that, I am not totally against drafting Joe Thomas.....


I would RATHER us go OLB, or FS, or RB in the first, but if they drafted a LT, I would feel better about or line situation....

Texans Horror
12-20-2006, 01:42 PM
But still having said all that, I am not totally against drafting Joe Thomas.....


I would RATHER us go OLB, or FS, or RB in the first, but if they drafted a LT, I would feel better about or line situation....

Agree completely. To me, the defensive secondary has been almost as weak as the o-line, and I would like to see us take a good Safety. An OLB would pretty much solidify the Defensive line talent, though, and that's pretty tempting to me, too. But with all the Boselli curse stuff...maybe Joe Thomas is the answer...

Runner
12-20-2006, 01:53 PM
I don't know, even leaving Spencer out of it as a complete wild card, there may be issues. I don't think we are very solid at all in our starting five.


I'm not sure Hodgdon or Winston has proven they will be full time starter material beginning with opening day next year. While Winston looks good at times, at others he looks pretty rough. He may need some additional seasoning. The same may be said for Hodgdon, but he's already had a couple of years more experience.

Weary looks good and bad too. I guess better center and RT play would help him. It better.

HOU-TEX
12-20-2006, 01:58 PM
IMO, any player we pick in the first round I'd be happy with as long as it fills a need. OL, DL, OLB, FS, CB, SS or RB are all holes that need filling. I don't think it'll be like last years first round where everyone was counting on us drafting 1 out of the 3 top prospects.:)

thunderkyss
12-20-2006, 02:21 PM
I also believe next year we will carry three QBs, two RBs, 3 TEs, and a fullback....

We're not going to have Flannagan, McKinney, Weigart, Salaam as backups.

I have no doubt Salaam will be back if he wants to be..... But it will be Bedell or McKinney, and McKinney or Flanagan.

Goldeagle
12-20-2006, 05:50 PM
If the line is as I projected Spencer, Pitts, Hogdon,Weary,Winston...

With McKinney,Salaam,Flannagan,Wiegert backing them up, how do you justify using a first rd. pick on an O-lineman?

..


1. Spencer is a ? (but he looked ok for a rookie, we did not see enough)

2. Pitts is average

3. Hodgen is below average

4. Weary is below average

5. Winston is a rookie and been spotty at best.

Reserves

Salaam: Stinks (dont mean to come across as, "HE STINKS BOOO!" but he does

Flannigan has missed the majority of games the past 3 seasons

Weigert was HORRIBLE! Spencer Tillman made a point that the passing pocket is weak and Weigert set up direct towards Carr instead of fanning out.

We need to address this O-line, its been 5 years (now 6 I guess).

Second Honeymoon
12-20-2006, 06:04 PM
Do Munchak or Mathews have sons?No doubt man, that would be the greatest. Fudge, I'll take a Munchak or Matthews daughter over some of these flatliners.

ok, as for OP Topic, I would have a very hard time believing that Pitts is screwing up on purpose. That is a heavy charge TK. This zone blocking scheme can be confusing and can look really bad at times. I hate what I call 'gimmick' offenses and 'systems'. Let's just line up and play some football and develop a system around the players and not the other way around. I just think Pitts and omg Hodgson have both looked really poor on the interior. Hodgson has been more of a matador than an OL. Its OL not OLE Hodgson!!!

but I think some of our OLs problems are due to us not just lining up and playing the football that these kids have been playing for years. I am all for innovation and new ideas but when you start getting rid of talented players and talented players are struggling all because of your 'system'...that to me is a problem

to sum up, Pitts not tanking on purpose just struggling and probably not giving 100%...just playing out the string. Basically if you arent giving 100% and you are playing against guys that are giving 100%, you are going to look bad at times....real bad

We all need to hope that Flanagan comes back because I thought he was doing a great job helping this group of guys gel.

omg, I made a post and didnt say one thing at all about a particularly well-coifed player that will remain nameless :)

MERRY CHRISTMAS

doug from the woodlands

real
12-21-2006, 08:38 AM
1. Spencer is a ? (but he looked ok for a rookie, we did not see enough)

2. Pitts is average

3. Hodgen is below average

4. Weary is below average

5. Winston is a rookie and been spotty at best.

Reserves

Salaam: Stinks (dont mean to come across as, "HE STINKS BOOO!" but he does

Flannigan has missed the majority of games the past 3 seasons

Weigert was HORRIBLE! Spencer Tillman made a point that the passing pocket is weak and Weigert set up direct towards Carr instead of fanning out.

We need to address this O-line, its been 5 years (now 6 I guess).



We all have different opinions about the line.....Some of us come to conclusions in different ways than others.....

I personally don't think picking an offensive lineman in the first rd. is what this team needs at this point in time.....

Think about it....Our line has been better this year than in previous years, and we've had four starters go down with injury or get their spot taken....Our line was in worse shape last year going into the off-season, and we had a chance to get D'brick who is probably a better LT than Thomas.....

only having one guy who has been starting since day 1 + Our line being in better shape than previous years + passing on the brick last year + Needing more talent on defense = Not picking an O-lineman in the 1st


JMO

Runner
12-21-2006, 08:56 AM
We all have different opinions about the line.....Some of us come to conclusions in different ways than others.....

Our line has been better this year than in previous years...

Different opinions is correct. This line might be better than last year, but that isn't saying much. The ultra-short passing offense we have installed now certainly helps it out.

I think the 2004 line was far superior. That line gave up more sacks, but it also consistently run blocked, supported a deep passing game, and most importantly helped produce points and wins.

The good old days with a stratospheric seven wins. I miss them.

real
12-21-2006, 08:59 AM
Different opinions is correct. This line might be better than last year, but that isn't saying much. The ultra-short passing offense we have installed now certainly helps it out.

I think the 2004 line was far superior. That line gave up more sacks, but it also consistently run blocked, supported a deep passing game, and most importantly helped produce points and wins.

The good old days with a stratospheric seven wins. I miss them.

I agree with you.....

I just think that if we didn't have so many injuries we'd probably have had our best line ever....

infantrycak
12-21-2006, 09:29 AM
I just think that if we didn't have so many injuries we'd probably have had our best line ever....

Probably true--but that is kind of like limboing under the St. Louis arch.

real
12-21-2006, 10:07 AM
Probably true--but that is kind of like limboing under the St. Louis arch.

I get that it's not hard to do.....

But I'm just saying that if they wouldn't grab D'Brick, one of the better LT prospects to have come out in a while, after last seasons O-line troubles, I just find it hard to believe they'd grad Thomas when our line has been better than previous years with four "replacements" playing a majority of the season....

I can see them spending a second or third rounder on some O-line help, But grabbing a LT this year IMO, would be almost as bad as grabbing a QB or RB in the first rd....

Mr. White
12-21-2006, 10:12 AM
I've seen some talk earlier in the season that we scrapped zone blocking. Does anybody have an idea if this really happened?

If we stay with zone blocking, then it would stand to reason that we wouldn't take an O-Lineman in the 1st round.

real
12-21-2006, 10:20 AM
I've seen some talk earlier in the season that we scrapped zone blocking. Does anybody have an idea if this really happened?


The best Zone Blocking I've seen out of this team was in the pre-season...

I honestly don't know if they've been Zone Blocking lately or not....maybe someone else who's been paying attention can answer that....

But IMO, they need to scrap the whole mixing blocking techniques...It's cool to have a couple plays that are different, but a majority of your scheme needs to be one or the other....

infantrycak
12-21-2006, 10:23 AM
I get that it's not hard to do.....

But I'm just saying that if they wouldn't grab D'Brick, one of the better LT prospects to have come out in a while, after last seasons O-line troubles, I just find it hard to believe they'd grad Thomas when our line has been better than previous years with four "replacements" playing a majority of the season....

I can see them spending a second or third rounder on some O-line help, But grabbing a LT this year IMO, would be almost as bad as grabbing a QB or RB in the first rd....

IMO your analysis is backwards--needs based rather than talent based. Last year no team had D'Brick graded as the most talented player in the draft. What teams need to do is find the most talent then scratch off those players who make zero sense due to cap ramifications (a punter with the #1 pick) or because of prior personnel (you have Stroud and Henderson so you scratch a DT in favor of the 2nd most talented player). That's the evaluation the Texans made last year. This year they could feel the clearly most talented player at their pick is a LT--if so they should take him. Not a prediction, just a statement on how it should be done rather than forcing needs and ending up with a less talented team.

eriadoc
12-21-2006, 11:06 AM
As I've stated before, on their best days, the line doesn't outright suck. But even on those days, they haven't done anything to win ball games. This is the same issue we have with our QB, so why continue overlooking the O-line? It's been 5 years now and as the old adage goes, "games are won and lost in the trenches". We need to fix it, finally. Spencer was step #1, we hope. Drop the other shoe this off-season, please.

Goldeagle
12-21-2006, 11:41 AM
We all have different opinions about the line.....Some of us come to conclusions in different ways than others.....

I personally don't think picking an offensive lineman in the first rd. is what this team needs at this point in time.....

Think about it....Our line has been better this year than in previous years, and we've had four starters go down with injury or get their spot taken....Our line was in worse shape last year going into the off-season, and we had a chance to get D'brick who is probably a better LT than Thomas.....

only having one guy who has been starting since day 1 + Our line being in better shape than previous years + passing on the brick last year + Needing more talent on defense = Not picking an O-lineman in the 1st


JMO

Watching the O-line play all season, I think it is still the most glaring weakness and it is time. I do think the first few games the O-line played well, but we lack anyone who is actually "Good" on the O-line. I do believe Spencer would have been if not for the injury.

I was a D'Brick fan, and he has had some spotty play, but he has shown big signs of improvement which tells me his upside is going to be top of the chart.

I dont disagree with your opinion, but with the horrible pocket set, and the inability to pass protect has just gone on way to long for me.

You can keep Pitts, see if Spencer will be able to play at 100% and you can see if Winston will live up to his hype before the tryouts and Senior Bowl (Winston was a projected a round1 but after being embarassed time and time again at the Senior Bowl he was passed up until we drafted him in the 3rd).

so you have in essence a rookie with a bad leg injury, a 1 year player who has looked average at best, and just an average guard.

And I think Joe Thomas will be gone before us anyway, who do you think we will take?

Texans Horror
12-21-2006, 12:16 PM
Currently, it would go:

Raiders
Lions
Bucs
Texans

Do you think LT would be taken by Bucs or Lions?

I still think Safety or CB (Aaron Ross, perhaps) to be the Texans selection this year.

infantrycak
12-21-2006, 12:22 PM
Arizona would currently pick #4 with the Texans at #5 based on strength of schedule. Arizona would take a LT given the opportunity.

eriadoc
12-21-2006, 12:27 PM
Currently, it would go:

Raiders
Lions
Bucs
Texans

Do you think LT would be taken by Bucs or Lions?

I still think Safety or CB (Aaron Ross, perhaps) to be the Texans selection this year.

The Raiders need a LT, as Gallery really hasn't panned out for them, by all accounts.

The Lions have a pretty solid left tackle in Jeff Backus and they drafted Jonathan Scott from UT last year, currently at RT.

The Bucs have an undrafted guy (Anthony Davis) manning the LT position this year, but they drafted Jeremy Trueblood in the 2nd round last year. I haven't watched many of their games and don't know much about those guys. I have the Ticket, but my extra games usually revolve around my FF leagues ;)

Texans Horror
12-21-2006, 12:28 PM
Thanks, infantry. Yeah, I could see AZ taking a LT. They need one as badly as the Texans do.

eriadoc
12-21-2006, 12:35 PM
Yeah, the Raiders and the Cards could use a good left tackle. However, the Raiders, Cards, and Texans didn't get to where they are by drafting intelligently!

Mariotexan
12-21-2006, 01:56 PM
I would love to see:
Leonard Davis Pitts Datish Winston Steinback
Grubbs Weary Spenser as backups

dbspi
12-21-2006, 02:48 PM
Tampa is also looking for LT. They have just as bad OL as we do.

Insideop
12-21-2006, 03:42 PM
Do Munchak or Mathews have sons?

Bruce Matthews has a son playing at Texas A&M. Kevin Matthews is a 6'4", 300 lbs, OL. He is currently a Red Shirt Freshman who is 2nd on the depth charts behind Junior Cody Wallace at Center.

Maybe we can pick him up in a few years, but I sure hope our line is "fixed" before that!

Goldeagle
12-21-2006, 03:57 PM
I would love to see:
Leonard Davis Pitts Datish Winston Steinback
Grubbs Weary Spenser as backups


Winston, Im not sure about

Dont know who Datish or Grubbs is, please explain?

(big fan of bringing Steinbach, though I know he was decent in college and starts in Cinncy)