PDA

View Full Version : Dan Reeves: Take Vince Young


Vinny
12-15-2006, 05:35 PM
I just heard John McClain say that Dan Reeves recommended that the Texans take Vince Young, but obviously they didn't listen to him....he is on his Friday evening radio spot on 610am right now. http://www.sportsradio610.com/

TexansSeminole
12-15-2006, 05:36 PM
Wonder why we paid him money to "advise" us if we were not going to listen to his advice.

brewhaus
12-15-2006, 05:38 PM
I just heard John McClain say that Dan Reeves recommended that the Texans take Vince Young, but obviously they didn't listen to him....he is on his Friday evening radio spot on 610am right now.

Are John and Dan tight?

Vinny
12-15-2006, 05:39 PM
Are John and Dan tight?Dan said it publicly on Sirius radio McClain said.

SESupergenius
12-15-2006, 05:39 PM
OMG are we still crying that we didn't pick Vince Young from the draft that's been over almost 8 months now? Geez, people will just not let it go and move on.

Vinny
12-15-2006, 05:40 PM
OMG are we still crying that we didn't pick Vince Young from the draft that's been over almost 8 months now? Geez, people will just not let it go and move on.Um, this is just news of great interest I'm passing along. That's what message boards are for.

travfrancis
12-15-2006, 05:41 PM
I think I threw up in my mouth a little when I heard McClain say that. Oh what could have been...

brewhaus
12-15-2006, 05:41 PM
Dan said it publicly on Sirius radio McClain said.

I wonder how much Dan's consulting fee was?

Runner
12-15-2006, 05:42 PM
That's very interesting, especially since had we not taken Williams it would have been more likely Bush than Young.

Maybe there is something to the theory that McNair is the one who is insisting on Carr. No one else could have easily overruled Reeves. Maybe Kubiak could have.

Honoring Earl 34
12-15-2006, 05:42 PM
Vinny I heard it to ... no wonder he was let go .

This is to weird ... you hire a guy to advise ... never mind .

DatTexBoy
12-15-2006, 05:43 PM
OMG are we still crying that we didn't pick Vince Young from the draft that's been over almost 8 months now? Geez, people will just not let it go and move on.

In Carr :secret: denial

SESupergenius
12-15-2006, 05:44 PM
I guess we should all follow McClain because he can't let it go either.

And where does Casserly fit into all of this.

DatTexBoy
12-15-2006, 05:45 PM
I can't tell if McNair is just not saying anything about Carr because well he is still here and that will definitely cause a stir in media asking Carr how he feels now that he knows he will no longer be a Texan? Just not PR wise anyway...but I am just hoping this is the case!

QB75
12-15-2006, 05:45 PM
Wonder why we paid him money to "advise" us if we were not going to listen to his advice.

"We"? No kidding!

Because "advising" is simply offering an opinion on a subject. He wasn't hired to make and implement final decisions.

Runner
12-15-2006, 05:46 PM
I guess we should all follow McClain because he can't let it go either.

And where does Casserly fit into all of this.

Contrary to popular belief, not everything was Casserly's fault. Had McNair given Casserly the power to force the coaches to do things they refused to the Texans would be in a better position right now.

Just my opinion, of course.

Runner
12-15-2006, 05:47 PM
I predict this thread will be on fire.

RTP2110
12-15-2006, 05:48 PM
Wow, sometimes it seems like this organization can do NOTHING right.

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 05:49 PM
OMG are we still crying that we didn't pick Vince Young from the draft that's been over almost 8 months now? Geez, people will just not let it go and move on.

I think it is really the discussion about the decision making issues of the organization and all the blunders made. This topic being one of them.

brewhaus
12-15-2006, 05:51 PM
And where does Casserly fit into all of this.

Interesting you should bring that up. Today, I heard the theory kicked around that some of Casserly's boys are still working in the Texans organization as scouts, and maybe other low profile positions. "The point being, the team is still not entirely rid of the stinch of the previous administration."

TexansSeminole
12-15-2006, 05:51 PM
So why is it that McNair does not tell people that Reeves advised him to take Vince Young, but a "coach" told him he would not come to Houston if they let Carr go and chose Vince Young. Why is he trying to make it seem like taking Vince Young was an unpopular choice of the coaches he interviewed when his "adviser" was telling him to do it?

There is always two sides.

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 05:51 PM
It was reported shortly after his services were completed that he recommended the Carr extension and that the problems were not Carr. He had a chance to say something then?

Why did he wait so long to bust this news?

Was there a waiting period because of contractual obligations for his services?

This is just bizarre...

Vinny
12-15-2006, 05:53 PM
It was reported shortly after his services were completed that he recommended the Carr extension and that the problems were not Carr.

Why did he wait so long to bust this news?

This is just bizarre...I think Reeves just made it public on his radio show if I understood McClain right...this didn't come from the Texans. Reeves doesn't work here so he has nothing to hide.

TexansSeminole
12-15-2006, 05:54 PM
It is looking more and more like McNair is the reason Carr has had so many chances in Houston...and will continue to.

brewhaus
12-15-2006, 05:55 PM
I think Reeves just made it public on his radio show if I understood McClain right...this didn't come from the Texans. Reeves doesn't work here so he has nothing to hide.

Do you think there is any "sour grapes" because Reeves wanted the coaching job?

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 05:55 PM
I think Reeves just made it public on his radio show if I understood McClain right...this didn't come from the Texans. Reeves doesn't work here so he has nothing to hide.




It has been out there since he finished his services that everyone understood his report was to keep Carr.

But why did he wait so long to bust this news?

DatTexBoy
12-15-2006, 05:55 PM
It is looking more and more like McNair is the reason Carr has had so many chances in Houston...and will continue to.

That unfortunately seems to be the truth!

edo783
12-15-2006, 05:56 PM
Do you think there is any "sour grapes" because Reeves wanted the coaching job?

Mmm, good point. Might be, but I really don't think Reeves wanted it.

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 05:56 PM
Do you think there is any "sour grapes" because Reeves wanted the coaching job?

Excellent question, because he has had a year to despell this belief that he recommended the extension for Carr.

Why did he wait so long?

Follow up questions are so important.

Double Barrel
12-15-2006, 05:57 PM
I just heard John McClain say that Dan Reeves recommended that the Texans take Vince Young, but obviously they didn't listen to him....he is on his Friday evening radio spot on 610am right now. http://www.sportsradio610.com/

Interesting.... :hmmm:

It puts a knife through the theory about McNair's inner circle telling him to keep Carr and find a HC that is cool with the decision. Obviously McNair had all kinds of perspectives, and maybe, just maybe, keeping Carr was a head coaching decision, 'eh?

That's very interesting, especially since had we not taken Williams it would have been more likely Bush than Young.

Maybe there is something to the theory that McNair is the one who is insisting on Carr. No one else could have easily overruled Reeves. Maybe Kubiak could have.

I think once we exercised Carr's option, it was down to Bush and Mario. McNair's influence was the condition to have a player signed by the draft, which Mario was the only taker.

I honestly don't think McNair insisted or demanded anything (other than the sign-before-the-draft requirement mentioned above). I believe him when he says that he hires football people to run his franchise, and keeping Carr was basically their decision.

If it was all about money, then Bush or Young would be in Texans unis right now. The bottom line and fan support would be blind and unconditional if we had followed popular opinion.

I fully believe that keeping Carr is on one man's shoulders: Gary Kubiak.

nunusguy
12-15-2006, 05:57 PM
I'm listening to SR 610, so I heard it to.
That's a mini bombshell IMO !
All this time I thought McNair was a delagator and one followed the advice
of his hired experts. Instead, it looks like he ignores the advise of his experts
if the advice doesn't suit him.

brewhaus
12-15-2006, 05:57 PM
Mmm, good point. Might be, but I really don't think Reeves wanted it.

Has Reeves even been doing anything in football since the Consulting job here in Houston?

TexansSeminole
12-15-2006, 05:59 PM
Maybe he was McNair's first choice of coach but they did not agree on Carr.

Much like McNair was saying that coaches would not come if they got rid of Carr and selected VY, maybe Reeves didn't want to coach here if we were going to keep Carr and not take VY. Maybe that showed him that he would not have the control of the team he wanted.

You really never know what happened.

Honoring Earl 34
12-15-2006, 05:59 PM
I don't care about getting Vince as much as I do about upgrading the QB .

If Reeves said this then he agreed that Carr was'nt all that .

Hulk .. McClain said he did not hug Fisher .

TexansSeminole
12-15-2006, 06:02 PM
I fully believe that keeping Carr is on one man's shoulders: Gary Kubiak.

I really hope that is not true. But I guess we will never know.

Maybe Kubiak wanted the job so bad, and knew McNair wanted to keep Carr so bad, that he told Bob he could turn Carr into the QB everybody thought he would be so he would get hired.

Runner
12-15-2006, 06:02 PM
Maybe Reeves' hindsight is better than his memory? Maybe Reeves suggested it but wasn't 100% behind the option? Maybe Reeves was talking about the business decision and popularity. Maybe Reeves said to pick Young because he was by far the best player. There are probably shades of meaning here, as everywhere.

The way I have heard about the pick is that Troy Calhoun (OC) wanted Bush and Richard Smith (DC) wanted Williams and Kubiak made the decision. This could still be true; it might have been clear to everyone they weren't going to be allowed to draft a QB.

dantem
12-15-2006, 06:03 PM
Wow, sometimes it seems like this organization can do NOTHING right.

Only to Carr Haters :)

SESupergenius
12-15-2006, 06:04 PM
I guess this is the same McClain that said we should pick up David Carr's option in the off-season

he [McClain] contends that the Texans will and should pick up the option to retain Carr's services. McClain reasons that the Texans should retain Carr because "every team in the NFL that needed a quarterback would line up to give him a signing bonus of a lot more than $8 million," although McClain provides no supporting analysis for that conclusion. Link (http://blog.kir.com/archives/002620.asp)

TexansSeminole
12-15-2006, 06:05 PM
Maybe Reeves' hindsight is better than his memory? Maybe Reeves suggested it but wasn't 100% behind the option? Maybe Reeves was talking about the business decision and popularity. Maybe Reeves said to pick Young becuase he was by far the best player. There are probably shades of meaning here, as everywhere.

The way I have heard about the pick is that Troy Calhoun (OC) wanted Bush and Richard Smith (DC) wanted Williams and Kubiak made the decision. This could still be true; it might have been clear to everyone they weren't going to be allowed to draft a QB.

I agree in the thought that they weren't allowed to draft a QB.

Who could have tossed Reeves' advice aside other than McNair?

MightyTExan
12-15-2006, 06:05 PM
Didn't Reeves draft Vick? If he did I could understand his recommending VY. Something's just weird about this whole mess.

Runner
12-15-2006, 06:06 PM
Who could have tossed Reeves' advice aside other than McNair?

Kubiak has a lot of power. He might have been able to.

TexansSeminole
12-15-2006, 06:07 PM
Kubiak has a lot of power. He might have been able to.

But do you think that Kubiak was even told Reeves' advice. It could be that McNair never relayed that info to Kubes.

I agree that Kubiak is the only other person that could do it.

Runner
12-15-2006, 06:07 PM
Has Reeves even been doing anything in football since the Consulting job here in Houston?

Does he want to be?

Nawzer
12-15-2006, 06:08 PM
Maybe McNair secretly wishes to be like Jerry Jones?:stirpot:

Second Honeymoon
12-15-2006, 06:08 PM
If Reeves told McNair to take Vince Young, WHY THE HELL DID WE RESIGN CARR AND PASS ON YOUNG. ugh, the plot thickens.

mcnair is coming across as a mindless stooge

Nawzer
12-15-2006, 06:14 PM
Dan Reeves probably wanted the Texans to draft VY thinking that it would take him a few years to handle an NFL offense. It's still mysterious to think what actually went on with McNair, Reeves, Casserly and crew.

Double Barrel
12-15-2006, 06:19 PM
Perhaps Reeves is the HC candidate that did not want the position if it included keeping Carr.... :hmmm:

Although I've always heard that Reeves did not want to get back into coaching and enjoys being an advisor.

kenneth24
12-15-2006, 06:33 PM
Why wait til the week after VY beats the Texans twice to bring it up? Did somebody ask him what his advice was or did he just start speaking his mind on the subject?

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 06:38 PM
Why wait til the week after VY beats the Texans twice to bring it up? Did somebody ask him what his advice was or did he just start speaking his mind on the subject?

Yeah, I have posted the same question 3 times in this thread.

Unfortunately, I don't think we will be getting answer...

TexansSeminole
12-15-2006, 06:38 PM
Perhaps Reeves is the HC candidate that did not want the position if it included keeping Carr.... :hmmm:

Although I've always heard that Reeves did not want to get back into coaching and enjoys being an advisor.

I was thinking it was more along the lines of Reeves was the HC candidate until he suggested taking VY. Maybe McNair did not want that and Reeves felt the job would be too restrictive.

beerlover
12-15-2006, 06:48 PM
I'll bet one thing is for sure- Reeves will never consult here again :aikido:

sheer poppycock, planting the seeds of dischord, watching them sprout & come to fruition. it is what it is. Mario Willams is a Texan & Vince Young is not, to make matters worse he is a possum. are you all possums or Texans :stirpot:

Vinny
12-15-2006, 06:48 PM
Yeah, I have posted the same question 3 times in this thread.

Unfortunately, I don't think we will be getting answer...
well, it's not like any of us have an answer to it....unless Jerek is Dan Reeves and SES is John McClain. I'm sure more will have to come out.

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 07:00 PM
well, it's not like any of us have an answer to it....unless Jerek is Dan Reeves and SES is John McClain. I'm sure more will have to come out.


Yeah, I know...

I was really poking fun at myself because I was going back through the thread and I was asking the same thing over and over. I knew I was, but it struck me as funny when I looked at from the perspective of another poster.

A week or so ago, aj. kind of laid into me that I repeated myself over and over regarding another topic.

Besides, I thought Jerek was Kubiak and SES was McNair. Shows you what I know...

ThaShark316
12-15-2006, 07:01 PM
Speaking of McClain...He said something to effect...that Winston should be RG, Weary C and Pitts LG...was I just hearing things or what?

Vinny
12-15-2006, 07:06 PM
Yeah, I know...

I was really poking fun at myself because I was going back through the thread and I was asking the same thing over and over. I knew I was, but it struck me as funny when I looked at from the perspective of another poster.

A week or so ago, aj. kind of laid into me that I repeat myself over and over regarding another topic.
It's a fascinating story though. Part of being an Oiler fan was watching Bud's front office lurch along, blowing smoke, hitting curbs, and leaking Oil. We were all led to believe that Dan Reeves did just the opposite of what we heard today. This is like watching a soap opera unfold. No way this is the last we hear of this story. McClain threw it out there like a teaser.

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 07:12 PM
McClain threw it out there like a teaser.

I hope your are right because I can't wait to hear more.

Malloy
12-15-2006, 07:13 PM
So why is it that McNair does not tell people that Reeves advised him to take Vince Young, but a "coach" told him he would not come to Houston if they let Carr go and chose Vince Young.

Or that coach was Kubiak?

If that is the case, then it all adds up :)

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 07:16 PM
Or that coach was Kubiak?

If that is the case, then it all adds up :)


I don't think Kubiak said that.

I remember reading an article, and I need to find it, where Kubiak said that after watching Vince at the Texas Longhorn Pro Day, he thought he was all that and more. I need to find that article.

Also, I remember reading somewhere, and it's just a rumor, behind closed doors, Kubiak was a VY guy.

So, if it wasn't Kubiak that said that about and wanted VY, how frustrated could he be right now?

kcwilson
12-15-2006, 07:18 PM
To quote from Major League:

Who gives a *******? It's gone.

aj.
12-15-2006, 07:19 PM
A week or so ago, aj. kind of laid into me that I repeated myself over and over regarding another topic.

...

All I said was "we see your point. You made it at least 5 or 6 times in this thread alone" after you repeated yourself about 5 or 6 times in one thread.

This news from Reeves tells me that McNair heard Reeves and Casserly's arguments on QB but in the end, McNair listened to Casserly - who obviously fought hard for Carr before his exit. If Kubiak turns Carr into a good QB, it makes Charley look good. If Carr is thrown to the curb and the team goes another direction last April, it makes Casserly look bad (in terms of CC's hire-ability in the future). The key to this whole theory is that CC still had enough of McNair's ear to make a difference, even though McNair cut Charley off at the knees by bringing in Reeves.

Part of it may also be that CC is stuck in 1983 and might not be capable of the thought that Vince might be special. He's still denying it as evidenced in his ridiculous "Top 10 QB with under 40 starts" list that came out last week.

Malloy
12-15-2006, 07:20 PM
I don't think Kubiak said that.



Don't get me wrong, I'm not neccesarily saying that this is my point of view, I'm mearly speculating, as are most people in this thread. Interesting though, and really tough to see clearly.

Double Barrel
12-15-2006, 07:28 PM
McClain threw it out there like a teaser.

Like a jab setting you up for an uppercut. :boxing:

I don't think Kubiak said that.

I remember reading an article, and I need to find it, where Kubiak said that after watching Vince at the Texas Longhorn Pro Day, he thought he was all that and more. I need to find that article.

Also, I remember reading somewhere, and it's just a rumor, behind closed doors, Kubiak was a VY guy.

So, if it wasn't Kubiak that said that about and wanted VY, how frustrated could he be right now?

If this is true....man, that's just wrong for so many reasons. It would reveal that McNair is much, much more than "just a fan" and actively decides and pursues his own agenda (which does not appear to be based upon football knowledge right now).

We've always been led to believe that McNair was a 'hands off' owner that just hired football guys to run his operation. But if Carr's status was sealed prior to hiring Kubiak, and in spite of the new HC's and advisor's suggestions, then we'll be a bottom dweller for longer than we'd wish to admit.

Obviously, this is all pure speculation, but fuel to the fire when it comes from the horse's mouth (i.e. Reeves).

utahmark
12-15-2006, 07:29 PM
what a loser. why didnt he speak up before vince started playing like and all pro. maybe he's trying to build his rep for another advisor's job?

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 07:29 PM
All I said was "we see your point. You made it at least 5 or 6 times in this thread alone" after you repeated yourself about 5 or 6 times in one thread.

This news from Reeves tells me that McNair heard Reeves and Casserly's arguments on QB but in the end, McNair listened to Casserly - who obviously fought hard for Carr before his exit. If Kubiak turns Carr into a good QB, it makes Charley look good. If Carr is thrown to the curb and the team goes another direction last April, it makes Casserly look bad (in terms of CC's hire-ability in the future).

Part of it may also be that CC is stuck in 1983 and might not be capable of the thought that Vince might be special. He's still denying it as evidenced in his ridiculous "Top 10 QB with under 40 starts" list that came out last week.

aj. your cool with me. I was just trying put a little humor into the whole thing.

Why would McNair rely so heavily on CC and his advice knowing he was leaving? CC was leaving because of poor performance and you still rely on him?

You may be right, but it just sounds crazy. Then again, people do crazy things.

utahmark
12-15-2006, 07:32 PM
Like a jab setting you up for an uppercut. :boxing:



If this is true....man, that's just wrong for so many reasons. It would reveal that McNair is much, much more than "just a fan" and actively decides and pursues his own agenda (which does not appear to be based upon football knowledge right now).

We've always been led to believe that McNair was a 'hands off' owner that just hired football guys to run his operation. But if Carr's status was sealed prior to hiring Kubiak, and in spite of the new HC's and advisor's suggestions, then we'll be a bottom dweller for longer than we'd wish to admit.

Obviously, this is all pure speculation, but fuel to the fire when it comes from the horse's mouth (i.e. Reeves).


if he was meddling around with coaches decisions we would of heard about it by now. you think capers and co. would keep that quite after being fired.

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 07:34 PM
We've always been led to believe that McNair was a 'hands off' owner that just hired football guys to run his operation. But if Carr's status was sealed prior to hiring Kubiak, and in spite of the new HC's and advisor's suggestions, then we'll be a bottom dweller for longer than we'd wish to admit.

Maybe McNair for the most part is hands off, but handcuffs people in the organization on certain big decisions that really negates any freedom they have to work with on the smaller items and to produce meaningful results.

Case in point, McNair said they have to have the #1 pick in the draft signed before the Draft. It is a good guideline to have and I understand the reasoning. But, I can see where you wouldn't want to box yourself into to a selection though. I am not banging on Mario, I like that pick over Bush.

hollywood_texan
12-15-2006, 07:35 PM
if he was meddling around with coaches decisions we would of heard about it by now. you think capers and co. would keep that quite after being fired.

Yep, Capers is still on the payroll because of his contract.

Mr. White
12-15-2006, 07:36 PM
I don't think Kubiak said that.

I remember reading an article, and I need to find it, where Kubiak said that after watching Vince at the Texas Longhorn Pro Day, he thought he was all that and more. I need to find that article.

Also, I remember reading somewhere, and it's just a rumor, behind closed doors, Kubiak was a VY guy.


I remember reading it too. It was a Skip Bayless article that said "Casserly's a Bush guy and Kubiak's a Young guy."

I'm not surprised to hear this. Go look up Bongo59's post history. He broke this Reeves story a week ago after the Titans beat us.

I heard a week after the draft that McNair paid 300K to Reeves to do the analysis and told him it was VY and Kubiak got McNair to go with Mario............and they used CC as the fall guy for Bush and VY because the world knew he was out as GM and it would deflect all questions from Kubiak...................problem is it put a bullseye on poor Mario.................and I dont see him ever recovering form it since I think Bush and VY will be future HOF players.


You guys thinkin' what I'm thinkin'?:spy:

aj.
12-15-2006, 07:49 PM
Why would McNair rely so heavily on CC and his advice knowing he was leaving? CC was leaving because of poor performance and you still rely on him?

You may be right, but it just sounds crazy. Then again, people do crazy things.

If CC's opinion on DC happened to match what McNair believed, then it's not so crazy. Charley and his staff built the draft board this year, so it's not like McNair totally shut him down.

Hookem Horns
12-15-2006, 07:55 PM
I think it is really the discussion about the decision making issues of the organization and all the blunders made. This topic being one of them.

After reading this thread and the one about the McNair interview I am convinced this organization is doomed. As bad as an owner as Bud was, at least he had enough sense to draft Earl Campbell and VY. He also was smart enough to bring in Warren Moon from the CFL. (OMG, I know it's freaking bad when I am complimenting Bud Adams). This love affair between McNair and Carr is ridiculous. That would have been like Bud insisting that Bucky Richardson was going to be a superstar one day and refusing to look for another QB.

Actually Bucky was more entertaining to watch than Carr.

Mr. White
12-15-2006, 08:04 PM
Maybe McNair for the most part is hands off, but handcuffs people in the organization on certain big decisions that really negates any freedom they have to work with on the smaller items and to produce meaningful results.

Case in point, McNair said they have to have the #1 pick in the draft signed before the Draft. It is a good guideline to have and I understand the reasoning. But, I can see where you wouldn't want to box yourself into to a selection though. I am not banging on Mario, I like that pick over Bush.

I've been hearing for years about how good of an owner this guy is.

It's getting pretty obvious what kind of owner this guy is. Helluva week.

Sunday- Carr doesn't get introduced by the organization so that they can protect his psyche.

Thursday- The AP story. McNair says Carr doesn't have enough "weapons" and takes a dig at Vince Young.

Friday- The story comes out that McNair didn't want to take the advice of his advisor. Nevermind that advice would have made him a lot more money, but was probably the better football decision.

Looks like there's something to the Communist schtick that the 610 morning guys do.

mganz
12-15-2006, 08:05 PM
Reeves was an adviser, not a decision maker. There was more than one person "consulting" i'm sure (GK, CC, TC and others). Someone asked "why did he wait until Titans beat us to release this information. I didn't hear what was said or when it was said but Dan may have Alzheimers, maybe he thought he said that and he really didn't (j/k).

Mr. White
12-15-2006, 08:06 PM
I was wondering what happened to Dan Reeves. We didn't even know that he was gone until after the fact.

JDizzle
12-15-2006, 08:07 PM
The Rose Bowl swung alot of people in Vince's favor so it's not a stretch that Reeves was too. He was brought in about a month before Vince declared. Saying "Carr isn't the problem" isn't really saying he's special. It's, in a nice way, saying that he doesn't suck that bad. I would imagine that the time between Vince declaring and Reeves' suggesting that McNair draft him is not that small, which fuels the fire even further because Carr's option was not picked up until a few weeks after that.

I find it hard that McNair listened to both Casserly and Reeves with a fresh ear, because he brought Reeves in as an objective consultant. He would not have been there if Casserly had proved himself competent, which leads me to believe that McNair may have had his mind made up about Carr.

aj.
12-15-2006, 08:09 PM
Reeves was an adviser, not a decision maker.

He was also part of the interview team. He asked the x's and o's questions while CC watched.

lance2112
12-15-2006, 08:14 PM
Sounds like some more of McClains VY manlove BS to me.

MrMeToo
12-15-2006, 08:15 PM
If Dan Reeves did say this,then he was right.Vince>>>Carr.

Honoring Earl 34
12-15-2006, 08:17 PM
Sounds like some more of McClains VY manlove BS to me.

McClain's and VY's clearly is'nt as deep or true as McNair's and Carr's .

Mr. White
12-15-2006, 08:17 PM
We're officially an NFL soap opera now.

Texan1
12-15-2006, 08:19 PM
I've said all along that McNair had much more to do with the 1st pick than aynone else (currently with the Texans).... He had nothing to do with the rest of the draft - and look how good that turned out.

Kubes was a rookie coach in tough situation.

Not sure whta pressure was on McNair - but I have a guess

bigTEXan8
12-15-2006, 08:39 PM
OMG are we still crying that we didn't pick Vince Young from the draft that's been over almost 8 months now? Geez, people will just not let it go and move on.

houstonians will continue to cry until carr gets the better of young, whether or not that actually ever happens. i am really starting to hate this offense that kubiak throws out there every week. offensively, their games are no fun to watch. i just hope the texans put at least 2 more wins under their belts and go into the post season with something to build upon. bottom line is, it's hard to understand why (at least, not from my point of view) why the texans didn't take the hometown hero, and then to see him succeed is even more frustrating to the fans. something everybody is going to live with until or if vy ever comes to houston.

BornOrange
12-15-2006, 08:49 PM
OMG are we still crying that we didn't pick Vince Young from the draft that's been over almost 8 months now? Geez, people will just not let it go and move on.
That's what sports fans do.

Red Sox fans are still upset about the Babe Ruth trade. That was 86 years ago.

Cubs fans are still upset about the Lou Brock trade. That was 40 years ago.

Rockets fans are still upset that they didn't draft Clyde Drexler 23 years ago.

Trailblazers fans are still upset about taking Bowie over Jordan the next year.

And Texans fans are always going to remember not drafting Vince Young.

Get used to it.

Honoring Earl 34
12-15-2006, 09:01 PM
This just in ... with all this man love going on ... Reliant will now be known as The Bird Cage .

Marcus
12-15-2006, 11:12 PM
I've just gotten through reading this thread, and I don't know yet if I just want to go throw up, or just yank the rest of my hair out.

I seriously doubt if I'll be watching the game on Sunday. This is just flat out insane, and I got better things to do with my time than watching what I thought was an organization that had an idea what it would take to be successful in this league.

Instead, it's nothing but a giant clusterf--- from the word go, that will never go anywhere until the owner sells the team.

thunderkyss
12-15-2006, 11:37 PM
I think there is a lot of speculating going on in this thread....... and maybe quite a bit going on by McLain.

Reeves wasn't brought in to advise us on the draft. His purpose, and the only result we know of... was to advise McNair on whether we needed wholesale changes of personnel on the field, or in the office. Reeves told us we have enough talent to win football games, and the lack of talent was not the reason we haven't been to the playoffs in our then 4 year history.

Gary Kubiak came in, and though he started 5 rookies, we started the season with pretty much the same starting line up we had last year...... pretty much a confirmation that he felt the same way.

Now, we kept Reeves on during the draft..... most likely telling McNair whether the decisions being made by Casserly made football sense, that Casserly's draft board made sense.

Heck, I thought it Kubiak who blew a gasket when he found out we gave Weaver a $25 million signing bonus(that was the last ridiculous contract we handed out... after that, talent like Moulds came in relatively cheap). But it may very well have been Reeves that told McNair that was stupid.

But the decision... players or coach, was made before the RoseBowl, at that time, Reeves had no idea Vince would be eligible for the draft.... nobody did. It's feasible(sp) to believe Reeves sayed, "Carr's got enough to get you to the Superbowl"

though I do wish Vince was a Texan, I don't think he's the only QB in the league capable of winning a Superbowl.

After Vince declared himself eligible.... I wouldn't doubt Reeves let it be known that if he was running the draft... he would take Vince. But it's also very possible, that no one asked him.

threetoedpete
12-15-2006, 11:42 PM
So Vinny, who was the big he Bull in the pen who said no way Jose ? You know who it was....
Either you trust the guy or you don't.

Tulip
12-15-2006, 11:59 PM
This is a depressing revelation. Drafting VY was such a no-brainer IMO, that I assume there was a LOT of politics at play during the offseason.

At least McNair admitted that the "under 30" policy of the Casserly/Capers was a mistake and that losing Glenn and Sharper was detrimental to the development of the younger players.

Baby steps. Maybe McNair will come to his senses in time. Especially about David Carr. His loyalty to that kid is getting old.

BattleRedToro
12-16-2006, 12:03 AM
I find the timing of this information to be very odd, like someone wasn't man enough to make this statement before last Sunday's game.

BattleRedToro
12-16-2006, 12:04 AM
His loyalty to that kid is getting old.

And so is the constant whining on this message board about the 2006 Draft.

kbourda
12-16-2006, 07:42 AM
I'll be the first to tell anyone who cares to listen that I am a "All VY supporter, All the time!". Let's put everything in to perspective. Doc Brown and Marty McFly won't be driving the Delorean through those doors at Reliant stadium and making what was wrong right. Hindsight is 20/20. Anyone can say well I shoulda, coulda, woulda done this or that after the fact. This just adds more to my theory about the make up of NFL player haves and have nots. My theory is this, you can participate in all the drills, tests, IQ tests you may percieve to be the measure of what it takes to become a top notch NFL player because the "experts" and the "people that get paid to do what they do" said so. For the record, "experts" and "people that paid to do what they do" don't guarantee their findings to be an exact science either. But I digress. My theory is that scouts, tests, and drills can't measure heart. Having that inner burn to be the best at any price. Enough of my ramble, back to the topic. Come on Dan (if true) you should have come out sooner (not like it would have mattered). Now it looks like: 1. You are trying to make yourself look good. 2. A wii (I know it's wee but in honor of the Nintendo) bit bitter in not getting the job. 3. Just flat out doing the T.O. equivalent of "Hey look at me!". Whatever the reason for it, be a man and own it no matter what. Bongo59 and Vinny great finds. I appreciate the info. All this does is make me hope and pray when VY does indeed blow up and has the opportunity to home here as a Texan that he decides to pass the Texans up. I'm a firm believer in you reap what you sow.

ArlingtonTexan
12-16-2006, 09:04 AM
This is a depressing revelation. Drafting VY was such a no-brainer IMO, that I assume there was a LOT of politics at play during the offseason.

At least McNair admitted that the "under 30" policy of the Casserly/Capers was a mistake and that losing Glenn and Sharper was detrimental to the development of the younger players.

Baby steps. Maybe McNair will come to his senses in time. Especially about David Carr. His loyalty to that kid is getting old.

The Capers/Casserly thing came from Capers experience in Carolina where the team got old right under his feet and there were not young player ready to take thier place. The problem is that dou over reacted to this possibility and then overpaid guys who were average at best because they were 26-27 year old FA.

TheOgre
12-16-2006, 09:13 AM
I guess we should all follow McClain because he can't let it go either.

And where does Casserly fit into all of this.


Rich Lord (610 am) has the biggest man crush on VY in this town. Richard Justice is not far behind. McClain wanted Young, but he didn't try to sell it to the same level as those other two.

Texans_Chick
12-16-2006, 09:28 AM
This news from Reeves tells me that McNair heard Reeves and Casserly's arguments on QB but in the end, McNair listened to Casserly - who obviously fought hard for Carr before his exit. If Kubiak turns Carr into a good QB, it makes Charley look good. If Carr is thrown to the curb and the team goes another direction last April, it makes Casserly look bad (in terms of CC's hire-ability in the future). The key to this whole theory is that CC still had enough of McNair's ear to make a difference, even though McNair cut Charley off at the knees by bringing in Reeves.

Part of it may also be that CC is stuck in 1983 and might not be capable of the thought that Vince might be special. He's still denying it as evidenced in his ridiculous "Top 10 QB with under 40 starts" list that came out last week.


I do not believe this story is new. I heard that Reeves would have picked Vince Young at the time that Houston announced that the two final candidates were Williams and Bush. (Heard it through my sports talk addiction so I don't have a link).

Wait, here's a semi link: link (http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/homefield/2006/04/)

April 27, 2006
Reeves, Brandt have Young fancy in draft
Former Broncos coach Dan Reeves, now a consultant for the Houston Texans, is impressed with Texas quarterback Vince Young, saying "he's gonna drive defensive coordinators crazy (toward bottom)."

Reeves won't compare the 6-foot-4 5/8. 229-pound Young to Michael Vick, the Atlanta Falcons quarterback for whom Reeves worked a draft-day deal in 2001, and neither will legendary scout Gil Brandt of Dallas Cowboys fame.

"There's about as much likeness between Vince Young and Michael Vick as there is between New York City and Big Sky, Montana," Brandt said. "Young is not a runner trying to play quarterback. He's a quarterback who can be a runner."

I believe, at the time he said it, he was no longer acting as consultant. That he said he thought Carr could be a player who could be successful in the league, but he would have picked Vince Young.

Personally, I think you could have picked VY even if you thought DC would have a future in the league. I am pretty sure that Reeves said that DC could have a future in the league--that doesn't preclude someone from deciding to take VY though--it just means that the decision on that was a FEBRUARY decision and not an April draft decision.

The timing of everything was terrible. VY signals he stays in school until he doesn't and hires a ridiculous choice as his agent. He's immediately get slammed for poor performance in a made for TV event, etc. Even VY's best supporters suggest that he is going to be a project in the NFL. Kubiak hired in January. Basically a week and a half then Carr's option has to be addressed.

I am guessing most of the coaching candidates in talking about Carr figure that the math of this means:

Would you rather have Carr + Bush or Vince Young - Carr - Bush?

McNair wants to do things from a purely football perspective. I am guessing nobody was selling VY as a pick from a football perspective even though that easily can be done, stats and results wise. (And Casserly evidently still doesn't think VY is worth much of anything given his list of top QBs). It is not quite as easy to prove in February that he is worth chucking Carr and Bush, but it could have been done.

Personally, I do think that fan support is part of home field advantage and IS part of a football decision, but it is evident that this wasn't put in the pros and cons at all.

Texans_Chick
12-16-2006, 09:38 AM
This is a depressing revelation. Drafting VY was such a no-brainer IMO, that I assume there was a LOT of politics at play during the offseason.



As someone who thinks that VY is going to be an excellent QB in the league, I believe it is wrong to declare his choice a no brainer.

Even the biggest mancrushers believed that VY was going to be a bit of a project, and would have to sit.

You would have had to make the VY choice in February when Carr's option was due. That's a big commitment to make then, because people supporting that choice have to say that VY is better than Carr + Bush.

(Further complicated by getting cold feet about Bush when he doesn't seem to want to be in Houston and wants to jack the team up, knowing that the Texans aren't going QB. I thought the way the entire draft stuff was handled was terrible. If Mario was going to be the pick, they needed to signal he was in the mix long before they did--it was unfair to the fans and to Williams. Also, it was a mistake to say that QB was most likely off the table, even though they did that partially to get fans to get over the VY thing.).

Vinny
12-16-2006, 10:16 AM
Even the biggest mancrushers believed that VY was going to be a bit of a project, and would have to sit. I don't think that is the case and I think you have latched on to the weak sauce that makes up popular thought. I've talked to plenty of people who were laughing at the "experts in the media" and the sheeple saying it would take years for VY to play....I think all that was ridiculous myself. Before the draft I even posted numerous times that he would play soon into his first year...but I just got bashed by the sheeple around here.

To further complicate this I hear that we extended Carr to the max 3 year contract instead of the 2 because we were afraid it would hurt his feelings and send the wrong message that we weren't sold on Carr...that's so romper room it's ridiculous.....they need to get over that and just roll out good football players based on competition (David has yet to compete for his spot in 5 years). Stop worrying about protecting people's feelings and sending supportive PC messages.....the only message I want as a fan is that the Texans don't have blinders on and will play the best of the best at every single position and evaluate ALL the players in the draft....especially in the most important position. None of the QB's were even looked at closely in the best QB draft in years. Passing up Young for Carr is like saying we have Dom Davis so we don't need Earl Campbell.

Runner
12-16-2006, 10:23 AM
Personally, I thought there were legitimate questions about how Young's game would transalte to the NFL. He has certainly answered those questions well so far. I think he has a couple more years to improve aspects of his game and show he's the real deal over the long haul.

However, I do have the ability to learn after I err. I think the only true obstacle to his success right now is an injury that takes his legs away. He needs to avoid as many big open field hits as he can.

Mr. White
12-16-2006, 10:34 AM
To further complicate this I hear that we extended him to the max 3 year contract instead of the 2 because we were afraid it would hurt his feelings and send the wrong message that we weren't sold on Carr...that's so romper room it's ridiculous.....they need to get over that and just roll out good football players based on competition (David has yet to compete for his spot in 5 years). Stop worrying about protecting people's feelings and sending supportive PC messages.....the only message I want as a fan is that the Texans don't have blinders on and will play the best of the best at every single position and evaluate ALL the players in the draft....especially in the most important position. None of the QB's were even looked at closely in the best QB draft in years.

I'm starting to think the reason that the team exists is to market David Carr. Don't let his feelings get hurt at any cost...he needs to keep smiling so he can keep getting commercials and modeling shoots. Good QB play is secondary.

I think it's obvious now who's been coddling David Carr all this time.

DatTexBoy
12-16-2006, 10:35 AM
I'm wondering if Kubes and McNair had a crystal ball and knew what they know now what would have been different!

Vinny
12-16-2006, 10:40 AM
All I know it is that today is December 16th 2006, and the QB we selected in 2002, David Carr looks just like he did last year and the year before and the year before that.....well, except for the fact that he is on pace to have a better completion % and less TD's. Does more completed 5 yard passes make the fans feel better? Yeah, the Carr only fans as they seem to love it....all the Texan fans are in pain otherwise.

The Dream
12-16-2006, 10:40 AM
rockets lose in double OT to the hated Kobe Bryant and then I wake up and read this :rolleyes:

texasguy346
12-16-2006, 10:56 AM
None of the QB's were even looked at closely in the best QB draft in years. Passing up Young for Carr is like saying we have Dom Davis so we don't need Earl Campbell.

The scary thing about this is that it brings into doubt the ability of this organization to make tough decisions. If they can't make a decision to pickup a young QB in one of the better QB drafts last year then how can we possibly trust them to make the right decision about Carr in the offseason. This front office looked at all the talented QBs in last years draft, and said "No Thanks" we like what we see in Carr. Can we really expect them to look at the available FA QBs in the offseason or the QBs in the draft with a realistic eye for talent? Or are they simply going to stand pat with Carr claiming yet again that he's full of potential that is still untapped 5 years into his career. It's a very frustrating situation to be in as a fan of this organization.

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 11:23 AM
One of the best owners in football was Eddie Debartolo jr . He was a players owner ... he would redo their contracts before they were due if the player had earned it .

On the other hand if you did not perform or were aging he did'nt care who you were ... it was time for you to go . Montana , Lott , Rice they finished with other teams because they had gyys waiting in the wings .

aj.
12-16-2006, 11:23 AM
I do not believe this story is new. I heard that Reeves would have picked Vince Young at the time that Houston announced that the two final candidates were Williams and Bush. (Heard it through my sports talk addiction so I don't have a link).

Wait, here's a semi link: link (http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/homefield/2006/04/)

.

Not sure why you're quoting me but we all read the same stuff when it hits the wire and the airwaves. If you're picking on my use of the word "news," we hadn't heard such a direct admission that Reeves made that recommendation to McNair - as opposed to Reeves making a general statement that he would be a great player for years to come or something to that effect.

...and Kubiak was blown away by Bush during his workouts.... (no link but I recall the article). Good things are said about good players. Except that CC never said anything good about Vince that I can recall.

Kubiak also made it pretty clear during his "intro to Houston" press conference in early Feb. that Carr was going to be the guy. (no link - but I was there and heard it along with everyone else).

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 11:29 AM
So AJ ... if Kubiak liked Bush , Reeves liked VY , CC liked Mario , and McNair liked Carr how did we get Mario ... signability .

Hookem Horns
12-16-2006, 11:34 AM
The scary thing about this is that it brings into doubt the ability of this organization to make tough decisions. If they can't make a decision to pickup a young QB in one of the better QB drafts last year then how can we possibly trust them to make the right decision about Carr in the offseason. This front office looked at all the talented QBs in last years draft, and said "No Thanks" we like what we see in Carr. Can we really expect them to look at the available FA QBs in the offseason or the QBs in the draft with a realistic eye for talent? Or are they simply going to stand pat with Carr claiming yet again that he's full of potential that is still untapped 5 years into his career. It's a very frustrating situation to be in as a fan of this organization.

To do an about face on Carr during this offseason would make them look even worse than they do now (despite the fact we all know that is what they should do). They passed up the best QB class in a long time and this year it is pretty weak. After reading about McNair's love affair with Carr I highly doubt they will look at other QB's. Good post.

Tulip
12-16-2006, 11:39 AM
Even the biggest mancrushers believed that VY was going to be a bit of a project, and would have to sit.


I'm going to have to take issue with this too. I never believed that Vince Young was going to be some sort of long-term project. I saw a lot of people parrot ESPN, but I didn't see a lot of substance behind those assertions. Vince Young was never Michael Vick. He threw for a lot of yards at Texas. He made reads, he made good decisions - some of which looked instinctive. He improved in passing by leaps and bounds every season.

I believed that Vince Young would be a starter by mid-season of his first season - and he was. And don't forget - he was chosen third in the draft. He didn't drop far. And for a team that desperately needed a leader in a QB - it should have been a no-brainer.

TNTitan
12-16-2006, 11:39 AM
All I know it is that today is December 16th 2006, and the QB we selected in 2002, David Carr looks just like he did last year and the year before and the year before that.....well, except for the fact that he is on pace to have a better completion % and less TD's. Does more completed 5 yard passes make the fans feel better? Yeah, the Carr only fans as they seem to love it....all the Texan fans are in pain otherwise.

did'nt you all pass on Peppers for Carr in that draft? wow

aj.
12-16-2006, 11:40 AM
So AJ ... if Kubiak liked Bush , Reeves liked VY , CC liked Mario , and McNair liked Carr how did we get Mario ... signability .


I said Kubiak liked Bush (as almost everyone in their right mind would). I didn't say Kubiak 'preferred' Bush...just like I said that we didn't have hard evidence that Reeves 'preferred' VY before this latest thing broke. That was the point. To answer your question - (you actually answered it yourself), it's a good chance we got Mario because McNair liked Carr (hence no VY10) and he was worried about Bush's signability and the other issues that came to light at that time (hence no RB25).

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 11:47 AM
did'nt you all pass on Peppers for Carr in that draft? wow

I hate you ... I hate you !

Mr. White
12-16-2006, 11:47 AM
To do an about face on Carr during this offseason would make them look even worse than they do now (despite the fact we all know that is what they should do). They passed up the best QB class in a long time and this year it is pretty weak. After reading about McNair's love affair with Carr I highly doubt they will look at other QB's. Good post.

About your new av and sig:

That was the main reason why I wanted Houston to draft VY. Because I live in Austin and the affiliate was pulling our games. If VY was in Steel Blue, it wouldn't matter how bad the record was, the Texans would be on TV all over Texas.

I talked about McNair stealing some of the Cowboys thunder in Texas and got flamed for it. I was talking about a good business decision AND a good football decision.

Now we're the number 3 team in Texas. Blackouts are looking inevitable in Houston next year as well. And the guy you passed over in the draft is owning your team in your own town.

Way to go, Bob.

Second Honeymoon
12-16-2006, 11:48 AM
McNair is now officially a horrible owner and our team is a national joke. Any fan who buys this load of garbage is either ignorant to reality or a retard. Why bring in a guy for advice if you aint even going to use his advice. McNair did the exact opposite of what Reeves suggested....

oh well as far as I am concerned, this franchise can take their UT jealousy/hatred, their emasculated Aggie head coach, and their inept golden boy QB and shove it all up their collective backside...its obvious McNair is running this franchise and he is running it into the ground

Texans_Chick
12-16-2006, 11:49 AM
I don't think that is the case and I think you have latched on to the weak sauce that makes up popular thought. I've talked to plenty of people who were laughing at the "experts in the media" and the sheeple saying it would take years for VY to play....I think all that was ridiculous myself. Before the draft I even posted numerous times that he would play soon into his first year...but I just got bashed by the sheeple around here.



Oh, what I should have said is not just the generic mancrushers, but rather the media perception: John McClain, Richard Justice, Rich Lord, etc. They were his biggest media supporters, but the case they made for VY in the media was a pretty weak one. (Blah blah, did you see him on TV, blah blah, he is a project).

I actually sent pro-VY stuff to McClain after VY declared because I thought the media case that they were making was not strong enough. It was frustrating to me that they would just acknowledge the Vick comparison without say GOOD LORD, Vick was taken 1st in the draft in 2001, and VY as a QB blows Vick away, and isn't the same sort of quarterback as Vick.

That is the point that needed to be made and wasn't being made.


And AJ, I was just quoting your stuff, not to dispute what you were saying but rather to amplify it. About the whole CC-Reeves-McNair dynamic.

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 11:49 AM
I said Kubiak liked Bush (as almost everyone in their right mind would). I didn't say Kubiak 'preferred' Bush...just like I said that we didn't have hard evidence that Reeves 'preferred' VY before this latest thing broke. That was the point. To answer your question - (you actually answered it yourself), it's a good chance we got Mario because McNair liked Carr (hence no VY10) and he was worried about Bush's signability and the other issues that came to light at that time (hence no RB25).

This is just to nicey nicey . Lets find a swell OC and a swell DC ... winning is not important .

What this team needs is a team Mom .... anybody .

aj.
12-16-2006, 11:50 AM
Not sure I follow, but ok.

Second Honeymoon
12-16-2006, 11:51 AM
About your new av and sig:

That was the main reason why I wanted Houston to draft VY. Because I live in Austin and the affiliate was pulling our games. If VY was in Steel Blue, it wouldn't matter how bad the record was, the Texans would be on TV all over Texas.

I talked about McNair stealing some of the Cowboys thunder in Texas and got flamed for it. I was talking about a good business decision AND a good football decision.

Now we're the number 3 team in Texas. Blackouts are looking inevitable in Houston next year as well. And the guy you passed over in the draft is owning your team in your own town.

Way to go, Bob.


/signed

Expect that mass of yellow around Austin to grow out and expand over time. I dont think we will have blackouts yet but we arent far away from that. The franchise is a freaking joke.

TNTitan
12-16-2006, 11:52 AM
did'nt you all pass on Peppers for Carr in that draft? wow

that one choice 5 years ago trickled down to this year why no VY

Texans_Chick
12-16-2006, 11:53 AM
McNair is now officially a horrible owner and our team is a national joke. Any fan who buys this load of garbage is either ignorant to reality or a retard. Why bring in a guy for advice if you aint even going to use his advice. McNair did the exact opposite of what Reeves suggested....

oh well as far as I am concerned, this franchise can take their UT jealousy/hatred, their emasculated Aggie head coach, and their inept golden boy QB and shove it all up their collective backside...its obvious McNair is running this franchise and he is running it into the ground

You have no idea what was said and when. Of course, that doesn't stop you from saying things as fact.

Bob McNair's son went to UT. Kubiak is friends with the Texas OC.

It is obvious that you are frustrated. Everyone is frustrated, probably mostly McNair. His deal is that he is trying to do things "the right way" but in the NFL there are a infinite number of right ways, and you need lucky breaks in the mix too.

Texans_Chick
12-16-2006, 11:57 AM
I said Kubiak liked Bush (as almost everyone in their right mind would). I didn't say Kubiak 'preferred' Bush...just like I said that we didn't have hard evidence that Reeves 'preferred' VY before this latest thing broke. That was the point. To answer your question - (you actually answered it yourself), it's a good chance we got Mario because McNair liked Carr (hence no VY10) and he was worried about Bush's signability and the other issues that came to light at that time (hence no RB25).

The first I heard that Reeves would have picked Vince Young was right at the time that the Texans announced it was between Bush and Williams.

At the time I thought he was madly trying to crawdaddy away from this decision.

I also believe I remember him being 100% behind resigning Carr for 3 years, so I don't know what's up with that and Reeves hasn't discussed his time when he was consulting and what the extent of that consultancy was.

Mr. White
12-16-2006, 12:02 PM
/signed

Expect that mass of yellow around Austin to grow out and expand over time. I dont think we will have blackouts yet but we arent far away from that. The franchise is a freaking joke.

I've heard that the blackout rule would go into effect after 5 years. I haven't done the research myself, so it's possible that I heard wrong.

Houstonians: Care to take a guess whose games you'll be watching on your CBS affiliate when the Texans do get blacked out?

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pho/aaha081_8x10-2006nfldraftday_b.jpg

Hookem Horns
12-16-2006, 12:02 PM
About your new av and sig:

That was the main reason why I wanted Houston to draft VY. Because I live in Austin and the affiliate was pulling our games. If VY was in Steel Blue, it wouldn't matter how bad the record was, the Texans would be on TV all over Texas.

I talked about McNair stealing some of the Cowboys thunder in Texas and got flamed for it. I was talking about a good business decision AND a good football decision.

Now we're the number 3 team in Texas. Blackouts are looking inevitable in Houston next year as well. And the guy you passed over in the draft is owning your team in your own town.

Way to go, Bob.

Many of us saw this coming before the draft (after the Texans said Carr was their man for another 3 years). The only surprise is how fast it happened, even I am surprised that VY is doing so good so soon. Honestly, can you blame KEYE for becoming the home of the Titans? TV is a business and the Titans are killing the Texans in TV ratings. Unfortunately Texans fans have no argument for them to show the Texans. The "home team" argument doesn't seem to cut it.

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 12:02 PM
Not sure I follow, but ok.

Bob did'nt want to get rid of Capers ... he liked him . It appears to be the same with Carr . I'm sorry but you can't let your heart overule your head .

I was sold on Bush ... he was the top player according to most experts . If we did not get Bush because he some trouble ... then we're worried about a squeaky clean image . We were sold on Bush and Carr , that Carr could take us to the Super Bowl .

If it's true what Reeves said then there was evidence of chinks in the armor and it was'nt a unanimous choice ... what else have they covered up . They have put a lot of lipstick on the pig but its still a pig .

Hookem Horns
12-16-2006, 12:05 PM
I've heard that the blackout rule would go into effect after 5 years. I haven't done the research myself, so it's possible that I heard wrong.

Care to take a guess whose games you'll be watching on your CBS affiliate when the Texans do get blacked out?


Austin is too far away to be effected by blackouts of Houston teams. Though when the Texans are blacked out in the Houston area I am pretty sure I know which other team will be shown. Bud must be in heaven about now.

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

LOL. The sad thing is that you can also say Bud now owns the Texans.

opus74
12-16-2006, 12:06 PM
I comes down to making a hard decision or taking the easy way out. Apparently, McNair felt that he had to go with Carr for PR or team chemistry or whatever reason. That was the easy way out - nobody gets their feelings hurt (in the short term) and the Texans try to improve in incremental steps.

The Titans made the hard choice. It was a painful experience to have to part with someone who meant as much to the team and the city as Steve did. But that's what we had to do to bring in Vince. Was it worth it? The jury is still out but it looks good right now,

I know you are all Bud-haters, but this is the kind of thing a successful owner has to do sometimes. Kinda like the tomcat's operation - it hurts like hell but it's for your own good.

Second Honeymoon
12-16-2006, 12:12 PM
You have no idea what was said and when. Of course, that doesn't stop you from saying things as fact.

Bob McNair's son went to UT. Kubiak is friends with the Texas OC.

It is obvious that you are frustrated. Everyone is frustrated, probably mostly McNair. His deal is that he is trying to do things "the right way" but in the NFL there are a infinite number of right ways, and you need lucky breaks in the mix too.

please refrain from sugarcoating things TC. McNair is like Midas except that everything he touches turns into garbage. This franchise is freefalling both in financial value as well as in public sentinment. His ignorance to reality, his commitment to doing things 'the right way' when in fact it is 'the wrong way'., and his inability to admit defeat/failure/disappointment/disaster show him to be the horrible NFL owner he is. The only quality move McNair has done since he got here was buying the team in the first place. Every move since them stinks of bad football, amateur hour PR spin job, and touchy feely myopia.

TC, we gotta stop spinning for McNair. I like you, I dont think you are a homer or apologist. I just feel your in a bit of denial as a fan. McNair is a bad owner. Pure and simple. He has let personal feelings, personal relationships, and public relations get in the way of making important football decisions. If Carr is brought back next year we only have McNair and the legions of homers to thank. Someone needs to step up and say something. Whether it be a player, front office, or community leader. someone needs to say enough is enough.

The bottom line is that until they get rid of Carr they will continue to be the national joke that they are. TC, can we at least agree that the Texans are a national joke presently?

Second Honeymoon
12-16-2006, 12:14 PM
You have no idea what was said and when. Of course, that doesn't stop you from saying things as fact.

Bob McNair's son went to UT. Kubiak is friends with the Texas OC.

It is obvious that you are frustrated. Everyone is frustrated, probably mostly McNair. His deal is that he is trying to do things "the right way" but in the NFL there are a infinite number of right ways, and you need lucky breaks in the mix too.

As a Longhorn fan, that isnt exactly something to be proud of. VY won and excelled in spite of Greg Davis. Greg Davis is a joke.

The Dream
12-16-2006, 12:15 PM
People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.


lol

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 12:17 PM
One thing about an owner ... he can change tomorrow . I think Bob made business choices based on bad information . He also might have let his friendships sway him a little .

Second Honeymoon
12-16-2006, 12:17 PM
I've heard that the blackout rule would go into effect after 5 years. I haven't done the research myself, so it's possible that I heard wrong.

Houstonians: Care to take a guess whose games you'll be watching on your CBS affiliate when the Texans do get blacked out?

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pho/aaha081_8x10-2006nfldraftday_b.jpg

omg, that is hilarious. allow me to co-opt that joke tomorrow watching the games at the local Buffalo Wild Wings. my fantasy football team is in the playoffs tomorrow so wish me luck. my girlfriend's Christmas is predicated on a win tomorrow :)

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 12:18 PM
lol

Thats to funny .

Vince should sell sack Carr shirts at home ... Bosworth did that . He made kill the Boz t shirts and sold them to Denver fans .

QB75
12-16-2006, 12:19 PM
I've heard that the blackout rule would go into effect after 5 years. I haven't done the research myself, so it's possible that I heard wrong.

Houstonians: Care to take a guess whose games you'll be watching on your CBS affiliate when the Texans do get blacked out?

People that have been calling for African-Americans to own NFL teams can rest easy. Houston is now the first franchise to be owned by an African-American.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pho/aaha081_8x10-2006nfldraftday_b.jpg

Wishful thinking. Hardly the case though.

Texans_Chick
12-16-2006, 12:23 PM
As a Longhorn fan, that isnt exactly something to be proud of. VY won and excelled in spite of Greg Davis. Greg Davis is a joke.

I know what Longhorn fans think of Davis.

I only said it to point out that Kubiak isn't anti-VY and actually got lots of VY information from Davis.

Yeah, the Texans are seen as a national joke, but I do not think that Bob McNair is a bad owner for making a decision as it relates to VY that most of the owners would have made.

I truly believe that VY would have dropped farther in the draft than he did if Bud Adams doesn't overrule his coach and OC.

Second Honeymoon
12-16-2006, 12:32 PM
I know what Longhorn fans think of Davis.

I only said it to point out that Kubiak isn't anti-VY and actually got lots of VY information from Davis.

Yeah, the Texans are seen as a national joke, but I do not think that Bob McNair is a bad owner for making a decision as it relates to VY that most of the owners would have made.

I truly believe that VY would have dropped farther in the draft than he did if Bud Adams doesn't overrule his coach and OC.

Ok, if Kubiak wasnt biased against Mr. VY because of college allegiances, why did he support resigning Carr and passing on VY? He is either an Aggie homer or a horrible evaluator of talent both in regards to DC and VY.

VY would have been snatched up by the Raiders without doubt had Bud, in his infinite wisdom (excuse me while I puke), passed on VY. Bottom line is that VY should have been taken #1 by us his hometown team. TC, I am just bitter. I drank the koolaid to start the season even after I had been posting Anti-Carr material since Day One. I fell in line with everyone else but I knew it was headed for disaster...and to be honest, it has gone FAR WORSE than even I expected.

We gotta do something as fans to show McNair that this type of ownership and childlike meddling will not be tolerated and supported. If last Sunday's scenario didn't wake McNair up to reality, I can't imagine anything else that will.

Double Barrel
12-16-2006, 12:49 PM
To further complicate this I hear that we extended Carr to the max 3 year contract instead of the 2 because we were afraid it would hurt his feelings and send the wrong message that we weren't sold on Carr...

That is a sad state of affairs...and seems to be the case when we drop the "tradition" of player intros at a home game because of the same reason.

If this is the way we decide to keep players - likeability and marketability - and drop players - too vocal and/or old - then we will be bottom dwellers for many years to come. Bad teams are the direct result of bad decisions.

I've always defended McNair based upon the public perception that has been put forth: a rich businessman who is a big fan of football and hires 'experts' to run his team. But revelations this week, including straight from the horse's mouth, leads me to believe otherwise. I can no longer blindly defend him if he is part of the decision making process, simply because he could be one of the potential problems to begin with.

So AJ ... if Kubiak liked Bush , Reeves liked VY , CC liked Mario , and McNair liked Carr how did we get Mario ... signability .

yep...deals were offered to both Mario and RB...only Mario accepted, and the rest is history. So much for the philosophy of BPA.


I know you are all Bud-haters, but this is the kind of thing a successful owner has to do sometimes. Kinda like the tomcat's operation - it hurts like hell but it's for your own good.

Well, Bud didn't come out of the womb making smart football decisions. Study the early years of the Oilers and he made some mistakes, as well.

Dr. Toro
12-16-2006, 12:51 PM
I do not believe this story is new. I heard that Reeves would have picked Vince Young at the time that Houston announced that the two final candidates were Williams and Bush. (Heard it through my sports talk addiction so I don't have a link).

Wait, here's a semi link: link (http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/denver/homefield/2006/04/)



I believe, at the time he said it, he was no longer acting as consultant. That he said he thought Carr could be a player who could be successful in the league, but he would have picked Vince Young.

Personally, I think you could have picked VY even if you thought DC would have a future in the league. I am pretty sure that Reeves said that DC could have a future in the league--that doesn't preclude someone from deciding to take VY though--it just means that the decision on that was a FEBRUARY decision and not an April draft decision.

The timing of everything was terrible. VY signals he stays in school until he doesn't and hires a ridiculous choice as his agent. He's immediately get slammed for poor performance in a made for TV event, etc. Even VY's best supporters suggest that he is going to be a project in the NFL. Kubiak hired in January. Basically a week and a half then Carr's option has to be addressed.

I am guessing most of the coaching candidates in talking about Carr figure that the math of this means:

Would you rather have Carr + Bush or Vince Young - Carr - Bush?

McNair wants to do things from a purely football perspective. I am guessing nobody was selling VY as a pick from a football perspective even though that easily can be done, stats and results wise. (And Casserly evidently still doesn't think VY is worth much of anything given his list of top QBs). It is not quite as easy to prove in February that he is worth chucking Carr and Bush, but it could have been done.

Personally, I do think that fan support is part of home field advantage and IS part of a football decision, but it is evident that this wasn't put in the pros and cons at all.

TC, VY's representation being detrimental was a media invention. I'm not sure they're to blame for the Wonderlic fiasco... VY isn't exactly the bookish type and was said to be "goofing off" during the test, which is what he does in the huddle during the 4th quarter (certainly his agents aren't to blame for that). VY still ended up being the first QB taken and signed a monster deal... the uproar about his representation was likely the result of the NoFunLeague network of analysts, writers, and agents that freak out at the first sign of nonconformity. No NFL scouts took that made for TV event seriously. VY had plenty of people like Brandt and Reeves and selling him results wise, and the tape told the story there too. Everybody did their best to sell him on every angle possible to the Texans... they just passed.

Everyone wants to assign blame, point to some nefarious plot... I don't really care for that. Houston passed on VY for whatever reason, they went with the defense wins championships tack. They were loyal to Carr, thought he could turn it around. Drafting Mario wasn't the biggest mistake ever... taking Vince seemed to be the intuitive thing, but I don't blame McNair or anybody for that. I'll blame the fact that the NFL often overthinks itself and tries to turn football into science and can make seemingly monumental errors like this. The kid had the measurables, intangibles, a built in fanbase, and accomplished more than anyone could have expected... that wasn't good enough. Stuff like this happens all the time... and not just in the NFL (although here more often than not). Pacers passed on Bird. Blazers passed on Jordan. Astros let Nolan go. Red Sox traded Babe Ruth and Jeff Bagwell. This city has lost Vince Young and Nolan Ryan, but because of a more fortunate transaction landed Jeff Bagwell. Houston had Sampson and still took Olajuwon the UH kid... but they passed on Jordan. This stuff is so complicated, I refuse to point fingers at individuals.

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 12:52 PM
I see Kubiak trying to get a job . An analogy would be ... you are a Little League coach ... you walk in for a job interview and see little Johnny's picture on the desk of the guy thats going to hire you .

The new boss ask Mr Honeymoon do you think Johnny can pitch ? What are you going to say no .

I'm not so much concerned with VY as I am the process in which we do things . I think with the talent that we have if you add couple of FAs and a have good draft and it will get exciting . Except for one very important position and that if not addressed will hold us back .

jdog
12-16-2006, 01:05 PM
I heard one possible fact in this whole thread. Dan Reeves said he suggested Vince Young. We have no other information.

I am guessing that for $300,000.00 you get more analysis than "draft Young". He probably had alternatives and costs and benefits associated with each choice, and the organization made the best decision they could make.

Vince Young and all of his supporters should be glad we did not draft him. We would still be having problems as a team, and Houston would have had to roll over on their favorite son within one year of drafting him.

Dr. Toro
12-16-2006, 01:10 PM
I heard one possible fact in this whole thread. Dan Reeves said he suggested Vince Young. We have no other information.

I am guessing that for $300,000.00 you get more analysis than "draft Young". He probably had alternatives and costs and benefits associated with each choice, and the organization made the best decision they could make.

Vince Young and all of his supporters should be glad we did not draft him. We would still be having problems as a team, and Houston would have had to roll over on their favorite son within one year of drafting him.

You're correct about Reeves and how this thing went down... but you're wrong to say our problems would have crushed VY. No one looked worse than Tennessee, sitting at 0-5 with VY playing horrible vs. Dallas. He certainly turned that thing around, travis Henry turned into a beast, the defense started playing with fire, and the line play got better despite suffering injuries. I think Vy could have done the same thing here.

In the grand scheme, there's no telling if VY would have been as motivated to bring a championship to H-town as he would be to prove all the haters wrong and correct a perceived slight by the local ballclub. Getting passed over by h-town certainly seems to be adding fuel to his fire, and he'll never forget it, as he'll face us twice annually.

Hookem Horns
12-16-2006, 01:15 PM
Vince Young and all of his supporters should be glad we did not draft him. We would still be having problems as a team, and Houston would have had to roll over on their favorite son within one year of drafting him.

I don't buy that. The Titans had a TON of problems and looked worse than the Texans did until Vince became a leader and they all started playing over their heads. What makes you think he couldn't have done that in Houston? It's been said a thousand times, all the guy does is win.

jdog
12-16-2006, 01:16 PM
You're correct about Reeves and how this thing went down... but you're wrong to say our problems would have crushed VY. No one looked worse than Tennessee, sitting at 0-5 with VY playing horrible vs. Dallas. He certainly turned that thing around, travis Henry turned into a beast, the defense started playing with fire, and the line play got better despite suffering injuries. I think Vy could have done the same thing here.

In the grand scheme, there's no telling if VY would have been as motivated to bring a championship to H-town as he would be to prove all the haters wrong and correct a perceived slight by the local ballclub. Getting passed over by h-town certainly seems to be adding fuel to his fire, and he'll never forget it, as he'll face us twice annually.

You are right. The Titans sucked. I know that Vince Young is good. He would have helped this team. I am sure that the organization would have loved to bring him on board, but we have so many needs. I am sure quarterback is low on the list outiside of the fans imaginations.

Plus, can you imagine the quarterback controversy if we had drafted Young? People still want Young playing over Carr, and Vince Young is not even on the team.

Second Honeymoon
12-16-2006, 01:40 PM
I see Kubiak trying to get a job . An analogy would be ... you are a Little League coach ... you walk in for a job interview and see little Johnny's picture on the desk of the guy thats going to hire you .

The new boss ask Mr Honeymoon do you think Johnny can pitch ? What are you going to say no .

I'm not so much concerned with VY as I am the process in which we do things . I think with the talent that we have if you add couple of FAs and a have good draft and it will get exciting . Except for one very important position and that if not addressed will hold us back .

GREAT ANALOGY

Second Honeymoon
12-16-2006, 01:42 PM
I heard one possible fact in this whole thread. Dan Reeves said he suggested Vince Young. We have no other information.

I am guessing that for $300,000.00 you get more analysis than "draft Young". He probably had alternatives and costs and benefits associated with each choice, and the organization made the best decision they could make.

Vince Young and all of his supporters should be glad we did not draft him. We would still be having problems as a team, and Houston would have had to roll over on their favorite son within one year of drafting him.

so your saying that VY wouldnt get the 5 years (and counting) of excuses like Lil Davey has? Oh yeah, I forgot. VY is black.

Texian
12-16-2006, 02:04 PM
Let's take a look at the facts re: Dan Reeves. Dan had a QB, Chris Chandler, that had taken them to the 98' Super Bowl and Chris went to the Pro Bowl. In the 2001 draft with Chandler still the QB, Reeves traded up to the #1 pick to take Mike Vick. Vick became the starting QB in 02'. This trade is what brought Tomlinson and Brees to San Diego. So it is not unconcievable that Reeves would recommend drafting Young.

I also remember reading shortly after Kubiak's hire, McNair asked Gary if they could win with Carr? Could he be the QB to get them to Super Bowl. Gary said, Carr was capable he just needed to be coached up, or words to that effect...So put me down in Kubiak's corner for keeping Carr.

It also known that Fisher and Chow wanted Lienart not VY but it was Bud who put the hammer down on the VY decision.

Honoring Earl 34
12-16-2006, 02:30 PM
Well Leinart is outplaying a certain five year vet . He's with the Cardinals .

Texans_Chick
12-16-2006, 02:43 PM
TC, VY's representation being detrimental was a media invention. I'm not sure they're to blame for the Wonderlic fiasco... VY isn't exactly the bookish type and was said to be "goofing off" during the test, which is what he does in the huddle during the 4th quarter (certainly his agents aren't to blame for that). VY still ended up being the first QB taken and signed a monster deal... the uproar about his representation was likely the result of the NoFunLeague network of analysts, writers, and agents that freak out at the first sign of nonconformity. No NFL scouts took that made for TV event seriously. VY had plenty of people like Brandt and Reeves and selling him results wise, and the tape told the story there too. Everybody did their best to sell him on every angle possible to the Texans... they just passed.

Everyone wants to assign blame, point to some nefarious plot... I don't really care for that. Houston passed on VY for whatever reason, they went with the defense wins championships tack. They were loyal to Carr, thought he could turn it around. Drafting Mario wasn't the biggest mistake ever... taking Vince seemed to be the intuitive thing, but I don't blame McNair or anybody for that. I'll blame the fact that the NFL often overthinks itself and tries to turn football into science and can make seemingly monumental errors like this. The kid had the measurables, intangibles, a built in fanbase, and accomplished more than anyone could have expected... that wasn't good enough. Stuff like this happens all the time... and not just in the NFL (although here more often than not). Pacers passed on Bird. Blazers passed on Jordan. Astros let Nolan go. Red Sox traded Babe Ruth and Jeff Bagwell. This city has lost Vince Young and Nolan Ryan, but because of a more fortunate transaction landed Jeff Bagwell. Houston had Sampson and still took Olajuwon the UH kid... but they passed on Jordan. This stuff is so complicated, I refuse to point fingers at individuals.


Disagree. I predicted it wouldn't help him.

VY goes to Titans despite what the headcoach wanted and OC. Fact.

The Dream
12-16-2006, 02:53 PM
Houston had Sampson and still took Olajuwon the UH kid... but they passed on Jordan. This stuff is so complicated, I refuse to point fingers at individuals.

not trying to change topics, but coming out of college there weren't many people who thought Jordan could've been what he was....Vince was more of a "sure thing" as far as greatness was concerned.

Hookem Horns
12-16-2006, 03:24 PM
I am sure that the organization would have loved to bring him on board, but we have so many needs. I am sure quarterback is low on the list outiside of the fans imaginations.

Plus, can you imagine the quarterback controversy if we had drafted Young? People still want Young playing over Carr, and Vince Young is not even on the team.

The fact that QB is low on this list is the reason this team will continue to be a loser for a long time. If Young were on this team there would be no controversy. Young would be starting right now and Carr would be either on the cut list or trading block, and I would be living in Austin, TEXAS not Austin, Tennessee.

old football fan
12-16-2006, 03:34 PM
I wouldn't believe anything John (I think I'm the football God)McClain siad or wrote.

Dr. Toro
12-16-2006, 03:57 PM
Disagree. I predicted it wouldn't help him.

VY goes to Titans despite what the headcoach wanted and OC. Fact.

So you use the fact that a HC in his walk year who played at USC and Matt Leinart's offensive coordinator preffered the more "pro-ready" Leinart as evidence that VY's representation stunk? Obviously they sold VY to the GM and owner, right... isn't that what matters? Yet Vince ending up in Tennessee is confirmation his agent didn't help him? I don't see it. Obviously, Tom Condon is no guarantee to get drafted where you want to or keep the rumors at bay, just ask Leinart. And what of Bush? I had my doubts in Major Adams just like you, TC...

I guess we'll never know what went wrong and who to blame, I liked your scifi thingy for the Chron, but I think this thing plays out more like the Iliad... Rich Lord playing the role of Cassandra, VY our potential Hector playing the role of Achilles, Bud as Agamemnon, Norm Chow as Odysseus, we all know who would play Paris... I could go on all day.

aj.
12-16-2006, 03:57 PM
The Titans made the hard choice. .

No they didn't. Bud tossed McNair to the curb because of the humongous cap hit, in much the same way that he traded away Moon a decade earlier. It was easy for him to do and only hard for the fans, and Steve, to accept.

As far as Vince, that was also a no-brainer for Bud. And that's not hindsight speaking either. I know how your owner thinks and there was one player that he was foaming at the mouth to get - in part to win back Texas fans - and that was you know who. I'm sure that having him fall into his lap at #3 excited Bud like nothing else.

Wolf
12-16-2006, 04:27 PM
very true aj,

axman40
12-16-2006, 04:28 PM
The fact that QB is low on this list is the reason this team will continue to be a loser for a long time. If Young were on this team there would be no controversy. Young would be starting right now and Carr would be either on the cut list or trading block, and I would be living in Austin, TEXAS not Austin, Tennessee.
Hey Hookkem care to join me for some moon pies and shine?

:tease:

NEROtheZERO
12-16-2006, 04:37 PM
This isn't new news. I heard him asked in an interview a while back, Jim Rome or Dan Patrick I believe it was, who he'd pick in the draft and he said Vince Young. I mean, it shouldn't be a suprise to anyone. Is he not the one who drafted Vick?

Vinny
12-17-2006, 04:46 PM
I am sure that the organization would have loved to bring him on board, but we have so many needs. I am sure quarterback is low on the list outiside of the fans imaginations.

Plus, can you imagine the quarterback controversy if we had drafted Young? People still want Young playing over Carr, and Vince Young is not even on the team.The fact that QB is low on this list is the reason this team will continue to be a loser for a long time. If Young were on this team there would be no controversy. Young would be starting right now and Carr would be either on the cut list or trading block, and I would be living in Austin, TEXAS not Austin, Tennessee. I agree Hook...that and McNair's comments the other day supporting David has really defined this franchise as lost in space.