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gtexan02
12-13-2006, 07:01 AM
Does anyone else find it a bit disconcerting that we are in year 5 of our marvelous franchise and yet are still lacking a middle of the pack offensive line?

I mean, no matter how many changes we make to this thing, the players go down or fail, and we end up back at square one with a musical chairs shuffle going on and 3 and 5 step drops at the max.

Are we cursed?

Bamaborn-Texasbred
12-13-2006, 07:13 AM
You could make a football version of The Wizard of Oz.

If I only had an offensive line....

If I only had a quarterback...

If I only had a big play...

Bamaborn-Texasbred
12-13-2006, 07:14 AM
Hey! I'm mister 600!

HJam72
12-13-2006, 07:40 AM
Yes....and....yes.

I'd like to say that we need to stop bringing in new faces and moving people around to get some cohesiveness, but we haven't had a choice in most cases this year.

Runner
12-13-2006, 07:46 AM
I contend that the coaches have done too much tinkering on the o-line. If they bring in players to develop, they should develop them and not throw them to the curb when they exhibit growing pains. Watching what happens to Winston the next couple of seasons will indicate if they will try that approach.

real
12-13-2006, 07:58 AM
I'm not sure how most of you judge line play, but if you judge it by the amount of sacks allowed we aren't too far off from some teams considered to have "good" Olines and healthy passing games....

Oakland 62
Detroit 49
Cleveland 44
St. Louis 44
Pittsburgh 40
Seattle 39
Buffalo 38
Houston 38
Atlanta 35
Miami 34
Minnesota 33
Cincinnati 30
Kansas City 30
New York 29
Arizona 29
San Francisco 27


I'm not really a stat guy, and I like to actually look and see who's doing what, and IMO considering the fact that we only have one guy who's been starting since the first game, our line hasn't played that bad. IMO, our line isn't as big a problem as some are making it out to be. I'd like to see better line play as well and I think we can do a better job, but I'm just of the opinion that the line is going to be o.k.

Trenches
12-13-2006, 08:00 AM
hell yes I am.

Casserly said that LT was one of the most important position on the field. they took Boselli to try to get solid right away. after that blew up THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING to address the situation until this last draft. Nothing in FA, no trade and no high pick (other than Wand, who was a project). Seems like they just have NEVER had their priorities straight.

this team is constantly plugging in rookies at important positions and then wonders why they suck. look at how many rookies start at LB for the Patriots. they know they need vets who understand the league at that important position in their D. we, on the other hand, tried to teach college DE's to be 3-4 linebackers and threw them out there while they learned. of course our D would stink.

I want to see the lines solidified, at whatever cost, and then build outward from there. If that means losing AJ, then so be it. His talent is being wasted here and he will probably bolt when his contract is up anyway.

Kaiser Toro
12-13-2006, 08:06 AM
If anyone pins this loss on the OLine then they are a fool. They played well in the passing and running game. If Carr can hit Andre and Daniels in stride, not throw two passes beyond the LOS and understand that throwing the ball to the first down marker, rather than before it, is a good thing, we may have something in this rookie, errr, veteran.

TexanFanInCC
12-13-2006, 08:26 AM
If anyone pins this loss on the OLine then they are a fool. They played well in the passing and running game. If Carr can hit Andre and Daniels in stride, not throw two passes beyond the LOS and understand that throwing the ball to the first down marker, rather than before it, is a good thing, we may have something in this rookie, errr, veteran.

yeah i agree. i think people blame the o-line bc they still have the vision of carr being the golden-boy. i think playing o-line on the texans is the hardest job ever, considering how much teams blitz us. well does anyone wanna know why teams blitz us alot? its because carr doesnt make the opposing defenses pay the price! carr doesnt make plays. if he was rolling out, throwing deeper passes, then the defense would HAVE to back off the LOS. if carr is throwing dink passes, you cant get the defense to stop stacking the box. someone ought to remind carr that we arent playing arena football. ..and the deep passes that carr actually DOES throw, they havent been good throws. they are either jumpballs to andre that could very easily be caught or picked off....too risky, or balls that just dont make any sense.

its not so much the o-line as it is carr....just my opinion

real
12-13-2006, 08:30 AM
I can't remember one deep throw that Carr has LEAD a reciever this year...

Runner
12-13-2006, 08:39 AM
If anyone pins this loss on the OLine then they are a fool. They played well in the passing and running game. If Carr can hit Andre and Daniels in stride, not throw two passes beyond the LOS and understand that throwing the ball to the first down marker, rather than before it, is a good thing, we may have something in this rookie, errr, veteran.

yeah i agree. i think people blame the o-line bc they still have the vision of carr being the golden-boy. i think playing o-line on the texans is the hardest job ever, considering how much teams blitz us. well does anyone wanna know why teams blitz us alot? its because carr doesnt make the opposing defenses pay the price! carr doesnt make plays. if he was rolling out, throwing deeper passes, then the defense would HAVE to back off the LOS. if carr is throwing dink passes, you cant get the defense to stop stacking the box. someone ought to remind carr that we arent playing arena football. ..and the deep passes that carr actually DOES throw, they havent been good throws. they are either jumpballs to andre that could very easily be caught or picked off....too risky, or balls that just dont make any sense.

its not so much the o-line as it is carr....just my opinion

I think you have to remember that a lot of the offense is predicated on the offensive line not being able to pass protect very well, so the line does have some blame. They did OK within an offense designed in part to protect them, not to maximize points. If the line was better and we had therefore run an offense that scores more points - the Texans would have won.

That being said, if Carr makes a couple of plays, or doesn't make some of his mistakes, then again the Texans would have won.

Either the line or Carr needs to step up, and if it is the line then play calling must reflect that to take advantage of their play.

Kaiser Toro
12-13-2006, 09:21 AM
That being said, if Carr makes a couple of plays, or doesn't make some of his mistakes, then again the Texans would have won.

Either the line or Carr needs to step up, and if it is the line then play calling must reflect that to take advantage of their play.

The Oline and Carr are equally a problem. However, when Carr has opportunities he must make them. Those two passes were squarely on him as has to make those throws. I have always mentioned that he should be measured on the opportunities that are presented to him and he does not measure to well when given the protection.

real
12-13-2006, 09:30 AM
Matters fact...

Why don't we spend rd. 1-4 picks on OL.....

eriadoc
12-13-2006, 10:17 AM
I'm not sure how most of you judge line play.....

I judge it by watching Tivo and taking note everytime Derrick Burgess just abuses Eric Winston, or when Vandenbosch abuses Wiegert, or when Salaam lets his guy come through more often than he should. I also take note of how other teams run basic pass plays and I compare them to our basic pass plays. I see with my own eyes what kind of protectiuon is given. All of this can be observed on plays that do not result in a sack or even a negative play. I don't pay attention to sack numbers or even who has given up how many sacks (couldn't tell you, honestly). I just watch and observe. It's not hard to see that our O-line is absolutely horrible some games and below average on their best days. Our entire passing game is predicated upon 3-step drops because the protection won't hold up for deeper drops. Our tackles do not get enough outward push on their good days. They have good moments, and I have some optimism regarding a couple of our linemen. But right now, the results aren't there.

I know you are a former offensive lineman and tend naturally to defend your position, but it's really painfully obvious that this line is bad and they have been for five years now. And all the points on which I judge them to be terrible have nothing to do with the QB. You can often observe our line and make a call on whether they did a good job before the QB has ever resolved the play. So I am leaving Carr out of this discussion completely.

eriadoc
12-13-2006, 10:22 AM
Matters fact...

Why don't we spend rd. 1-4 picks on OL.....

I really don't think we need to. If we draft a blue chip tackle in round one and pair him up with Spencer and/or Winston, I think two of them can develop into a solid pair of tackles. I don't have any idea where Spencer stands on the injury issue, so take that into account. The interior line will show improvement by having better tackle play. Pitts can man the LG position. I'm optimistic about Hodgdon at Center. RG hasn't really resolved itself, but guards and centers typically come from the later rounds in the draft and/or are available via free agency, whereas tackles are usually first round picks that no one gives up to free agency.

real
12-13-2006, 10:22 AM
I judge it by watching Tivo and taking note everytime Derrick Burgess just abuses Eric Winston, or when Vandenbosch abuses Wiegert, or when Salaam lets his guy come through more often than he should. I also take note of how other teams run basic pass plays and I compare them to our basic pass plays. I see with my own eyes what kind of protectiuon is given. All of this can be observed on plays that do not result in a sack or even a negative play. I don't pay attention to sack numbers or even who has given up how many sacks (couldn't tell you, honestly). I just watch and observe. It's not hard to see that our O-line is absolutely horrible some games and below average on their best days. Our entire passing game is predicated upon 3-step drops because the protection won't hold up for deeper drops. Our tackles do not get enough outward push on their good days. They have good moments, and I have some optimism regarding a couple of our linemen. But right now, the results aren't there.

I know you are a former offensive lineman and tend naturally to defend your position, but it's really painfully obvious that this line is bad and they have been for five years now. And all the points on which I judge them to be terrible have nothing to do with the QB. You can often observe our line and make a call on whether they did a good job before the QB has ever resolved the play. So I am leaving Carr out of this discussion completely.

I agree with you. I think our line as a whole has played pretty bad, but not as horrible as some make them out to be. But the one thing I tend to consider is that we're playing 3 back-ups, and one guy who wasn't even on the active roster to begin with...And I don't think that we can leave Carr out of the discussion completely...The offense in intertwined and one plays a large role on the others success, or how the other is viewed...I'm agreeing with you that our line isn't good right now(with all the back-ups) but at the same time, I don't think Carr is helping them out a whole lot either....

eriadoc
12-13-2006, 10:34 AM
I agree with you. I think our line as a whole has played pretty bad, but not as horrible as some make them out to be. But the one thing I tend to consider is that we're playing 3 back-ups, and one guy who wasn't even on the active roster to begin with...And I don't think that we can leave Carr out of the discussion completely...The offense in intertwined and one plays a large role on the others success, or how the other is viewed...I'm agreeing with you that our line isn't good right now(with all the back-ups) but at the same time, I don't think Carr is helping them out a whole lot either....

Yeah, the injuries have decimated the line ... it seems like every year. So I amend my ealier post - maybe we should draft nothing but O-line, just to have enough quality depth to form two O-lines ;)

Runner
12-13-2006, 10:45 AM
Yeah, the injuries have decimated the line ... it seems like every year. So I amend my ealier post - maybe we should draft nothing but O-line, just to have enough quality depth to form two O-lines ;)

Maybe the coaches should just keep what depth they have on the roster instead of carrying 9 lineman into the season only to find that depth gone when the Texans need it.

Wiegert and Flanagan out, Salaam fighting injuries - who could have forseen that?

real
12-13-2006, 10:46 AM
Yeah, the injuries have decimated the line ... it seems like every year. So I amend my ealier post - maybe we should draft nothing but O-line, just to have enough quality depth to form two O-lines ;)

Honestly, At this point I don't care how the Texans draft....

We need so much help that any new faces will be good to see....

Runner
12-13-2006, 10:57 AM
Don't say anything, but I think a discsussion just occured.

Double Barrel
12-13-2006, 10:57 AM
Any person that ever played or coached the game at or above the college level will tell you that a team lives and dies with its Line play. It just doesn't get any more basic in football than Line play.

I agree. Games are won and lost in the trenches. It's football 101, which is yet another reason Casserly is a fool and a blowhard when he did not focus on putting together a solid line in the first four years. He set us up to fail, IMO, by sheer ineptitude.

I can't remember one deep throw that Carr has LEAD a receiver this year...

This is something that aggravates me at games. He always seems to put the ball behind the receiver, so they lose their forward momentum, have to twist themselves around to catch the passes behind themselves, and leaves them open for a dangerous blindside hit.

I've read about WRs that get upset with QBs that consistently put them in a blindside hit with their passes. Carr does this all the time, and I'd love to be a fly on the wall during a private conversation between AJ and Moulds. They can't be happy with it.

One clear example of a piss poor pass was last game when AJ clearly had his man beat and if Carr could have just dropped the pass into AJ's hands ahead of him, he had 10 yards of endzone to catch it.

People can blame the line all they want, but I see stupid decisions being made by our QB out there. Those illegal forward passes were indicative of a QB that is lacking basic perception of the LOS, and it just gets worse from there.

Meloy
12-13-2006, 11:04 AM
hell yes I am.

Casserly said that LT was one of the most important position on the field. they took Boselli to try to get solid right away. after that blew up THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING to address the situation until this last draft. Nothing in FA, no trade and no high pick (other than Wand, who was a project). Seems like they just have NEVER had their priorities straight.

this team is constantly plugging in rookies at important positions and then wonders why they suck. look at how many rookies start at LB for the Patriots. they know they need vets who understand the league at that important position in their D. we, on the other hand, tried to teach college DE's to be 3-4 linebackers and threw them out there while they learned. of course our D would stink.

I want to see the lines solidified, at whatever cost, and then build outward from there. If that means losing AJ, then so be it. His talent is being wasted here and he will probably bolt when his contract is up anyway.Watch it there trenches. WHen I mentioned a possible trade of AJ, I was villified. I like him but 2006 is his 5th year. He will demand huge $ as a two time probowler. If we knew that Spencer and Winston would be our starters next season and healthy, I would be ok with selecting a tackle in lower rounds. Or a solid back up in free agency. We do not know that so LT in round one if available.:snobord:

real
12-13-2006, 11:08 AM
People can blame the line all they want, but I see stupid decisions being made by our QB out there. Those illegal forward passes were indicative of a QB that is lacking basic perception of the LOS, and it just gets worse from there.

That's all I'm saying....

I can see the line struggles just as much as the next man....

But what I'm afraid of is that we are going to keep trying to put the best of the best around David and he's still not going to play well....Some of the poor things that I've seen him do have no correlation between him and line play....If you are a good QB, there are just some things you do, and some things you don't do....Carr hasn't done enough of those good things for my liking....I've seen too many bone-head decisions, and mis-placed throws for me to be led to believe that a stellar line and good running game will improve his level of play exponentially.....

How many QB's in the leauge would like to have a stellar O-line and great Running game ?

Meloy
12-13-2006, 11:11 AM
If anyone pins this loss on the OLine then they are a fool. They played well in the passing and running game. If Carr can hit Andre and Daniels in stride, not throw two passes beyond the LOS and understand that throwing the ball to the first down marker, rather than before it, is a good thing, we may have something in this rookie, errr, veteran.I thought John McCLain rated the oline as ok running but not so good at pass blocking?

run-david-run
12-13-2006, 11:13 AM
I can't remember one deep throw that Carr has LEAD a reciever this year...

Philly, Jacksonville away, Redskins...off the top of my head.

Double Barrel
12-13-2006, 11:14 AM
That's all I'm saying....

I can see the line struggles just as much as the next man....

But what I'm afraid of is that we are going to keep trying to put the best of the best around David and he's still not going to play well....Some of the poor things that I've seen him do have no correlation between him and line play....If you are a good QB, there are just some things you do, and some things you don't do....Carr hasn't done enough of those good things for my liking....I've seen too many bone-head decisions, and mis-placed throws for me to be led to believe that a stellar line and good running game will improve his level of play exponentially.....

How many QB's in the leauge would like to have a stellar O-line and great Running game ?

Very true, man.

The fact of the matter is that we have a mediocre QB (at best) that will require an all-pro line and RB around him for him to be good enough to be a 'Trent Dilfer clone' (meaning that he won't lose games for us). I've always been Carr-neutral, and this is just the way it is.

The body of evidence before us is clearly revealing of his limitations. Unfortunately, for a five year team, getting an all-pro line and RB is simply out of the question. So we need a dynamic QB that can make more out of less. Carr is just not that kind of player.

It's not hatin' on the guy for admitting his limitations. It's just a realistic evaluation of one player out of 52. They'll all go through this kind of scrutiny, and why our QB should be immune from it is beyond me.

Meloy
12-13-2006, 11:14 AM
I judge it by watching Tivo and taking note everytime Derrick Burgess just abuses Eric Winston, or when Vandenbosch abuses Wiegert, or when Salaam lets his guy come through more often than he should. I also take note of how other teams run basic pass plays and I compare them to our basic pass plays. I see with my own eyes what kind of protectiuon is given. All of this can be observed on plays that do not result in a sack or even a negative play. I don't pay attention to sack numbers or even who has given up how many sacks (couldn't tell you, honestly). I just watch and observe. It's not hard to see that our O-line is absolutely horrible some games and below average on their best days. Our entire passing game is predicated upon 3-step drops because the protection won't hold up for deeper drops. Our tackles do not get enough outward push on their good days. They have good moments, and I have some optimism regarding a couple of our linemen. But right now, the results aren't there.

I know you are a former offensive lineman and tend naturally to defend your position, but it's really painfully obvious that this line is bad and they have been for five years now. And all the points on which I judge them to be terrible have nothing to do with the QB. You can often observe our line and make a call on whether they did a good job before the QB has ever resolved the play. So I am leaving Carr out of this discussion completely.Vandenbosch didn't abuse Winston and Weigert will prob be gone in 07. I take that as good news.:)

real
12-13-2006, 11:15 AM
Philly, Jacksonville away, Redskins...off the top of my head.

I honestly don't remember Carr hitting a reciever in stride or leading a reciever on a long pass play in any of those games......

TexansLucky13
12-13-2006, 11:16 AM
Didn't Joey Harrington beat Daunte for the starting job in Miami??

Joey Harrington < David Carr

real
12-13-2006, 11:23 AM
Very true, man.

The fact of the matter is that we have a mediocre QB (at best) that will require an all-pro line and RB around him for him to be good enough to be a 'Trent Dilfer clone' (meaning that he won't lose games for us). I've always been Carr-neutral, and this is just the way it is.

The body of evidence before us is clearly revealing of his limitations. Unfortunately, for a five year team, getting an all-pro line and RB is simply out of the question. So we need a dynamic QB that can make more out of less. Carr is just not that kind of player.

It's not hatin' on the guy for admitting his limitations. It's just a realistic evaluation of one player out of 52. They'll all go through this kind of scrutiny, and why our QB should be immune from it is beyond me.

Another thing that kinda gets me, is that some people keep saying, it's the line, it's the line, it's the line....and their solution is to draft a LT in the first rd.

Huh?

The line is made up of 5 players, and Pass protection involves everyone except the recievers....I really don't see how drafting a LT in the first "fixes" our line...Is LT even our weakest link on the line? No one knows........it's just the line.......

I honestly can't say what I think of every individual player on the line, but I do know that if the line is that much of a problem, it's going to take more than the mighty Joe Thomas to fix it....

In Carr you have a single player, that if upgraded can have a positve effect on the WHOLE team...wheras by drafting a LT in the first may not even make our LINE better...let alone the team or the offense....

Im not against drafting Joe Thomas, but IMO, our pick would be better served elsewhere.....

JMO

SESupergenius
12-13-2006, 11:28 AM
It is the line, up until last game our guys were getting manhandled at the line and we couldn't establish a running game. Add to that the number of sacks we've had then there is not doubt that our line play has been pretty aweful. Carr has had his guards push back into his face countless times. Carr has his own problems but to say the line isn't bad makes you in need of some serious game goggles. Do i need to quote Kubiak as to how this offensive line is not holding up? We've lost several key personnel on this line due to injury, that right there is enough to bring our play down a notch.

real
12-13-2006, 11:32 AM
It is the line, up until last game our guys were getting manhandled at the line and we couldn't establish a running game. Add to that the number of sacks we've had then there is not doubt that our line play has been pretty aweful. Carr has had his guards push back into his face countless times. Carr has his own problems but to say the line isn't bad makes you in need of some serious game goggles. Do i need to quote Kubiak as to how this offensive line is not holding up? We've lost several key personnel on this line due to injury, that right there is enough to bring our play down a notch.

I'm not sure who this post is directed to if anyone at all, but I haven't seen one single post that says the line is good....

JMO, but trying to find a better QB is easier than trying to "fix" the line....

Texan_Bill
12-13-2006, 11:38 AM
Don't say anything, but I think a discsussion just occured.

See, you weren't supposed to say anything. Like not talking to a pitcher during a no-no....

Battle Red Flash
12-13-2006, 11:46 AM
Yep. In 2002, we should have traded back and took O-linemen and D-linemen. You should start with the foundation.

TheOgre
12-13-2006, 11:49 AM
The is the 2nd worst pass blocking team in the modern era
(the Eagles actually gave up over 100 sacks in 1986 http://www.footballdb.com/teamstat.html?tm=24&yr=1986). They need to fix the line before any QB will be consistent here.

That said, Carr needs to go. It is that time. It doesn't matter if you like him or not. The fans and media have turned on him, and the players don't appear to support him. I doubt the coaches have much faith in him either. Carr has lost faith in the ability of the line to protect him...that is readily obvious. He needs a fresh start like Harrington is getting in Miami. I wish him well, but I think it is better for everyone involved if he moves on to Chicago, Oakland, Minnesota, Cleveland, Buffalo, Detroit or somewhere else that needs a QB.

I think Oakland or Detroit gets Quinn, so I don't think we draft a QB with our 1st. Guys like OT Thomas, RB Peterson, or CB Hall would help tremendously. That still leaves us with a need to find a new QB in the 2nd-4th rounds and/or through FA.

SESupergenius
12-13-2006, 12:13 PM
The is the 2nd worst pass blocking team in the modern era
(the Eagles actually gave up over 100 sacks in 1986 http://www.footballdb.com/teamstat.html?tm=24&yr=1986). They need to fix the line before any QB will be consistent here.

That said, Carr needs to go. It is that time. It doesn't matter if you like him or not. The fans and media have turned on him, and the players don't appear to support him. I doubt the coaches have much faith in him either. Carr has lost faith in the ability of the line to protect him...that is readily obvious. He needs a fresh start like Harrington is getting in Miami. I wish him well, but I think it is better for everyone involved if he moves on to Chicago, Oakland, Minnesota, Cleveland, Buffalo, Detroit or somewhere else that needs a QB.

I think Oakland or Detroit gets Quinn, so I don't think we draft a QB with our 1st. Guys like OT Thomas, RB Peterson, or CB Hall would help tremendously. That still leaves us with a need to find a new QB in the 2nd-4th rounds and/or through FA.This is the scenario I hated to see when we were discussing the expectations of this team in the offseason. If the Texans were to pick up his bonus then everyone needed to be behing that decision because it's not like we can just keep dumping high paid players after a few months of play. The bandwagon followers of Vince Young are not helping the situation because even though they want to throw it in our face that we may have made the wrong decision, we just can't cut Carr lose like he's a $2 whore. There are some serious cap considerations to look at and with all the other highly paid players we let go of last year, our cap situation for 2007 can't be all the great. We will eat up a lot of dead cap space if we cut Carr in the offseason. It would be optimal if we turned a Buchanon trade onto someone else with Carr and with Casserly gone we just might have the GM to do this. Cutting Carr is not an option. I like Carr, he's got good abilities and character. But I think it may be time for him to go as well. It was predicted early on when Vince Young got drafted to the Titans that if Carr didn't beat him no matter what the other 52 guys on the team did, then Carr will take the brunt of the Texans' loss on his shoulders.

SESupergenius
12-13-2006, 12:18 PM
I'm not sure who this post is directed to if anyone at all, but I haven't seen one single post that says the line is good....

JMO, but trying to find a better QB is easier than trying to "fix" the line....
IMO it is better to get a good line first to a) not taint yet another QB b) provide protection enough to let a play develop c) creating a good running game to balance out our attacks d) gain first downs with the run.

This is something our team has never had.

real
12-13-2006, 12:24 PM
IMO it is better to get a good line first to a) not taint yet another QB b) provide protection enough to let a play develop c) creating a good running game to balance out our attacks d) gain first downs with the run.

This is something our team has never had.

The problem I have with that is that every team in the leauge would like to do all those things....And even trying to accomplish those things could take years.....IMO, a better QB is an instant upgrade to the whole team....

eriadoc
12-13-2006, 12:25 PM
That's all I'm saying....

I can see the line struggles just as much as the next man....

But what I'm afraid of is that we are going to keep trying to put the best of the best around David and he's still not going to play well....Some of the poor things that I've seen him do have no correlation between him and line play....If you are a good QB, there are just some things you do, and some things you don't do....Carr hasn't done enough of those good things for my liking....I've seen too many bone-head decisions, and mis-placed throws for me to be led to believe that a stellar line and good running game will improve his level of play exponentially.....

How many QB's in the leauge would like to have a stellar O-line and great Running game ?


We should absolutely keep trying to put the best of the best around Carr. And we should absolutely try and upgrade the QB position.

I look at it this way - the O-line is going to have more impact on the team's performance than any other element. If the O-line is playing well, any QB can succeed at least to a decent degree. If the O-line is performing well, the running backs can start trying to make defenders at the second level miss instead of running into a big mass of bodies. If the O-line is playing well, the defense will have to send more rushers, which opens up the field for the receivers. Etc, etc, etc.

If we don't get a good O-line, we'll just put our new QB at an immediate disadvantage. We'll continue to have an offense that's predicated upon 3-step drops. We'll continue to exclude the shotgun formation from our repertoire. All of this leads to a lower time of possession, which tires out the defense.

Upgrading QB will give a nice return. Fixing the O-line will give better return. As for drafting a LT in the first round and that solving all our problems ..... maybe, maybe not. A lot depends on performance, scheme, coaching, and injuries. However, the tackle play on this team has been worse than the guard play, fr the most part (they've all had their moments). Tackles are historically hard to find in lower rounds of the draft and good tackles don't come available via free agency very often. When they do, they cost an arm and a leg (Andre Ware reported that the Pace deal was done, but Casserly balked at the price, for instance). If we draft tackle in the first round and either Spencer or Winston perform well at the other position, we're so much further along on the road to recovery. The line will probably still take a year to develop, given Spencer's and the rookie's inexperience, but a young QB (say, second or third rounder?) can sit for a year, learn Kubiak's offense, and find the field in 2008.

JMO, of course, but I think the O-line will give us more bang for the buck than any other offensive element.

real
12-14-2006, 07:51 AM
I would love to see this team draft 2-3 OL, possibly all on the first day, in next years draft.

Then what happens when our line still "sucks"....

Do you realize how far that could set us back as a franchise ?

real
12-14-2006, 07:57 AM
The problem with this mode of building a team is that one must build up one's Offensive Line eventually and continually lowering it as a priority to go after the latest big name skill position player will never get the job done.

Andre, David.....

If I'm not mistaken, those are the only two skill position players we have taken in the first rd.....

I think the rest have been spent on defense.....

I'm of the opinion that a solid line is built through scheme, technique and coaching...I've seen some of the most physically un-gifted lineman be able to "get the job done" because of good technique, and being able to fit in with the rest of the guys and work as a unit...I don't think we need to draft an offensive lineman in the first rd. but at the same time I'm not totally against it...I just don't see how drafting one Tackle in the first is going to make the other four guys on the line better....Is tackle even the weakest position on the line ? Or do we need a gaurd more ? or a center ? How in the heck is drafting one OT in the first going to make us run the ball better, and pass protect better??? If you want to instantly upgrae your passing....Waaaalaaaah.....You get a better QB.....If you want to instantly upgrade your running game.....Waaaahlaaah....You get a better RB....It's not rocket science....The only way we'd be able to overhaul the line is to draft nothing but O-line on the first day, and that would be asanine IMO.....

real
12-14-2006, 08:11 AM
I don't understand why we can't see David Carr for what he is....Why do we have to correlate one group with the other when it comes to evaluating their level of play....It is clearly obvious that overall David has not played well this season.....The line has had some troubles as well, but David is our assumed leader, and QB....Why wouldn't we want to replace the guy that is going no where fast? I will never understand the logic of wanting to keep a QB that clearly is not playing at a winning level, and then wanting to go out and draft more protection for him....Explain this....If we draft Joe Thomas in the first, is that going to make Carr stop throwing the ball when he's past the line of scrimmage ? Is it going to make Carr be more accurate? is it going to give him courage to throw the ball down field ? Is it going to make him stop fumbling? One Tackle in the first rd. is going to do all of this ?

And it's nice when you all come back with "well if the line would block better..." .......please...spare me....Guys are not runnning through our line like a hot knife through butter...Carr has had time on several occasions and has still failed...All of Carr's mistakes are not on that line.....I would have thought Carr being benched and having his throwing privelages taken away would have enlightened some of you.....The guy plays poorly period....How many Offensive lineman have been benched because of poor performance ? You all think Kubiak just has a fetish for Running Backs and Quaterbacks ?

:rant:

VY's Crib U Jus payn Rent
12-14-2006, 08:11 AM
Does anyone else find it a bit disconcerting that we are in year 5 of our marvelous franchise and yet are still lacking a middle of the pack offensive line?

I mean, no matter how many changes we make to this thing, the players go down or fail, and we end up back at square one with a musical chairs shuffle going on and 3 and 5 step drops at the max.

Are we cursed?

Yes with a dumb arse owner!

jerek
12-14-2006, 09:39 AM
The Oline and Carr are equally a problem. However, when Carr has opportunities he must make them. Those two passes were squarely on him as has to make those throws. I have always mentioned that he should be measured on the opportunities that are presented to him and he does not measure to well when given the protection.

Ditto to this and what Runner said. Carr made some really boneheaded plays and he must maximize the opportunities that are given him. Not one but two illegal forward passes are just not what you'd expect from a five-year veteran regardless of how bad his protection was. Right idea throwing the ball away -- how long have we been waiting for that? -- but he looked way too nervous out there. It could be in part because he perceives that his entire fanbase hates him. Frankly I am going to be pissed if we end up dealing the guy and he becomes a superstar somewhere else.

As Runner said our offense is predicated on minimal protection. Our pass protection still has zero chemistry and it appears an issue in part of lack of mutual trust between OL and Carr as well as lack of skill. As a general rule, the longer a quarterback is able to wait, the more open his receivers get. We struggle to throw the deep ball in part because we aren't sure if we'll have time to get it off. Despite Carr throwing some lame deep routes in the last few games (e.g. behind his WRs) I have always felt he does a good job with it and with leading his receivers when given the time.

TheOgre
12-14-2006, 09:55 AM
The problem I have with that is that every team in the leauge would like to do all those things....And even trying to accomplish those things could take years.....IMO, a better QB is an instant upgrade to the whole team....


I said this before but apparently it needs to be said again. This team continually talks about running the ball first and passing second, yet we have not spent a single 1st round selection on a RB or Olineman. The only 2nd round selections we have spent on those positions were Chester "Got Caught Holding" Pitts, and Tony Hollings, who played 4 games at HB in his life prior to us drafting him.

A stud OLT (Joe Thomas) could open holes on the left side for a RB to run, and would block the blindside of whatever unlucky QB starts for this team. A stud RB (Peterson) would make plays that none of our current guys can. He would help prevent these third and 6+ situations that seem to be the staple of our offense. Dayne doesn't "take it to the house", and Peterson could. You can't keep talking about doing something and not upgrading your equipment to do it.

real
12-14-2006, 10:48 AM
I said this before but apparently it needs to be said again. This team continually talks about running the ball first and passing second, yet we have not spent a single 1st round selection on a RB or Olineman. The only 2nd round selections we have spent on those positions were Chester "Got Caught Holding" Pitts, and Tony Hollings, who played 4 games at HB in his life prior to us drafting him.

A stud OLT (Joe Thomas) could open holes on the left side for a RB to run, and would block the blindside of whatever unlucky QB starts for this team. A stud RB (Peterson) would make plays that none of our current guys can. He would help prevent these third and 6+ situations that seem to be the staple of our offense. Dayne doesn't "take it to the house", and Peterson could. You can't keep talking about doing something and not upgrading your equipment to do it.

I hope they get Joe Thomas....AND....Keep Carr.....

eriadoc
12-14-2006, 11:04 AM
I hope they get Joe Thomas....AND....Keep Carr.....

So do I. And I hope they draft a rookie to sit and learn a year to replace Carr in 2008 when the line is ready to play real NFL football. Imagine the possibilities.

real
12-14-2006, 11:08 AM
So do I. And I hope they draft a rookie to sit and learn a year to replace Carr in 2008 when the line is ready to play real NFL football. Imagine the possibilities.

What-a-plan.

Double Barrel
12-14-2006, 11:39 AM
As a general rule, the longer a quarterback is able to wait, the more open his receivers get.

Eric Moulds said "receivers are open all over the field" on his radio show a couple of days ago. Take it FWIW, but it's not like they are being covered 100% of the time. He went on to equally assign responsibility with the line, QB, and lack of a consistent running game.

I don't see a lot of three step drop and immediate release from this offense, which is based on a west coast. Is there a lack of timing between our QB and WRs? They don't seem to be in sync much of the time.

TheOgre
12-14-2006, 11:36 PM
For lack of a better term, Carr is "shellshocked". I think we have damaged him possibly permanently by having such a poor line that he has developed reactionary habits. His only hope is to move onto a new team with a better line.

utahmark
12-14-2006, 11:47 PM
Eric Moulds said "receivers are open all over the field" on his radio show a couple of days ago. Take it FWIW, but it's not like they are being covered 100% of the time. He went on to equally assign responsibility with the line, QB, and lack of a consistent running game.

I don't see a lot of three step drop and immediate release from this offense, which is based on a west coast. Is there a lack of timing between our QB and WRs? They don't seem to be in sync much of the time.

i wish we could see the whole field on tv. this carr debate could end in a few games.

dantem
12-14-2006, 11:57 PM
I can't remember one deep throw that Carr has LEAD a reciever this year...

He has hit several guys on long passes in stride this year. you must not have watched all the games...

Oops sorry outdated thread...