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View Full Version : Kubiak's plan versus Carr's play


Wolf
12-12-2006, 05:11 PM
got a question, everyone is bashing David and his 2 yard passes, but what strikes me is.. If this is so bad why isn't Kubiak jumping down David's throat or benching him for these "dinks and dunks"?


Seems to me that is Kubiaks game plan..

I don't believe that Kubiak is just playing David because David is making a bunch of money.

I really believe that Kubiak is using this whole season as an evaluation period to get "his" type of guys on this team.

ib4texans
12-12-2006, 05:13 PM
got a question, everyone is bashing David and his 2 yard passes, but what strikes me is.. If this is so bad why isn't Kubiak jumping down David's throat or benching him for these "dinks and dunks"?


Seems to me that is Kubiaks game plan..

I don't believe that Kubiak is just playing David because David is making a bunch of money.

I really believe that Kubiak is using this whole season as an evaluation period to get "his" type of guys on this team.


BINGO!

Goldeagle
12-12-2006, 05:18 PM
got a question, everyone is bashing David and his 2 yard passes, but what strikes me is.. If this is so bad why isn't Kubiak jumping down David's throat or benching him for these "dinks and dunks"?


Seems to me that is Kubiaks game plan..

I don't believe that Kubiak is just playing David because David is making a bunch of money.

I really believe that Kubiak is using this whole season as an evaluation period to get "his" type of guys on this team.



As much as a Carr homer/lover I am, I am tired of the dink and dunks! I dont know if the dinks fall to Carr or Kubiak who tells him to get the ball out of his hands and push the drive? Im thinking a little of both because I asked a question as to where Moulds was and someone replied he was open but Carr threw it to Lundy on most of those plays.

So, I'd say Carr is doing what Kubiak is telling him to do, but I also think Carr on some plays (RARE) to take a half second and scan the field again. Then again he might want to take a chance and just throw it deep like he has done with AJ who cant make a typical catch but will make a grab between 2 defenders.

amazingandre
12-12-2006, 05:19 PM
I agree. especially because he started the season out so hott......but we will see soon...

Wolf
12-12-2006, 05:20 PM
I agree I hate the dinks and dunks they bore me to death

and unfortuantly that has become the trademark of Carr and the Texans.

TexansSeminole
12-12-2006, 05:20 PM
I really believe that Kubiak is using this whole season as an evaluation period to get "his" type of guys on this team.

Agreed.

Wolf
12-12-2006, 05:21 PM
and watching Denver-S.D. the other day in the first half reminded me so much of the Texans except it was Cutler doing the throwing short.

infantrycak
12-12-2006, 05:24 PM
It is both. Watch Carr's head. On some plays he looks at the deep receiver and then checks down. On many plays his first look is at an underneath WR who he then hits for 4-8 yds--those are designed 1st read plays given to him by Kubiak.

ib4texans
12-12-2006, 05:30 PM
and watching Denver-S.D. the other day in the first half reminded me so much of the Texans except it was Cutler doing the throwing short.


It's sad to watch, you have seen Cutler's arm strength he can throw the deep ball. David Carr's #1 WR in college was Bernard Berrian, he threw deep all the time. He has good field vision, he just doesn't get recievers with much seperation. This offense is designed to go 6-12 for a long play and 3-5 for a typical play, that's why we have long sustained drives when it's functioning and failing drives whenever we try to stretch the field. There are just not enough downs to make up for the dropped ball down field.:twocents:

HomeBred_Texan
12-12-2006, 05:35 PM
But if he had a game buster type RB, then a dink and a dunk to him for 40 to 50 yds running would be great. Am I correct?

We just need to get a big play type RB and My guess is, this whole mess will clear itself up. Until then, dink and dunk away.... :hides:

Vinny
12-12-2006, 05:54 PM
Kubiak talks about his game plan issues and stretching the field in Nick's uploaded press conference.

http://forums.houstontexans.com/showpost.php?p=534157&postcount=61

Kaiser Toro
12-12-2006, 05:58 PM
Since it is being brought up again, Carr on the average is sacked 3.38 times per start over his career. Not good, but when you take into consideration him sacking himself and that there has not been many "jacked up" type of sacks due to his duck and cover move he really is not the warrior that people make him out to be in my opinion.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/players/playerpage/306268

jdog
12-12-2006, 06:02 PM
There are some good points made here.

We need better pass protection to pass further down field.

We need better run blocking for the run in order to help us pass further down field.

We need more of our offensive linemen to be healthy.

We had a suspect line to begin the season.

Carr was sacked like crazy until this year.

We are seeing a lot of dinks and dunks.

You do the math.

elbison
12-12-2006, 06:05 PM
It's sad to watch, you have seen Cutler's arm strength he can throw the deep ball. David Carr's #1 WR in college was Bernard Berrian, he threw deep all the time. He has good field vision, he just doesn't get recievers with much seperation. This offense is designed to go 6-12 for a long play and 3-5 for a typical play, that's why we have long sustained drives when it's functioning and failing drives whenever we try to stretch the field. There are just not enough downs to make up for the dropped ball down field.:twocents:

And not enough downs to waste them with tipped and batted balls!!!

LOL @ the one David threw into the dude's waist.... :hides:

ib4texans
12-12-2006, 06:07 PM
And not enough downs to waste them with tipped and batted balls!!!

LOL @ the one David threw into the dude's waist.... :hides:



Man your avatar is freaky,it reminds me of that "Little Man Movie"

Wolf
12-12-2006, 06:08 PM
well on batted balls, I heard about that.. that is a problem when you are consistantly doing 3 step drops.. you have to throw over "8 foot walls"
(can't remember where I read that article)

and don't think the article was specifically talking about Carr

t_flare
12-12-2006, 06:19 PM
I think Kubiak rather dink and dunk then lose 5 yards and fumble with a sack...

Trust me.. if Carr refuse to pass downfield Kubiak would be all over it... And during the Titians game, Kubiak never appear to be piss at Carr like he was in Oak and the past. I think he was happy with Carr's play.

Hey this O-Line sucked at the beginning of the year. Take that and substract 3 starters (LT, C, RT) what more can you do with the offense.

HomeBred_Texan
12-12-2006, 06:24 PM
I think Kubiak rather dink and dunk then lose 5 yards and fumble with a sack...

Trust me.. if Carr refuse to pass downfield Kubiak would be all over it... And during the Titians game, Kubiak never appear to be piss at Carr like he was in Oak and the past. I think he was happy with Carr's play.

Hey this O-Line sucked at the beginning of the year. Take that and substract 3 starters (LT, C, RT) what more can you do with the offense.

Then take it this way...

Get those starters back, have another decent draft, and to me that does mean getting a RB in the 1st round, draft another OL or a DB in the 2nd and add depth from there on and where will be next year?

Kind of interesting isn't it?

elbison
12-12-2006, 06:27 PM
Man your avatar is freaky,it reminds me of that "Little Man Movie"


Thanks, I made it myself.

:fireball: :bowser:

hollywood_texan
12-12-2006, 06:56 PM
got a question, everyone is bashing David and his 2 yard passes, but what strikes me is.. If this is so bad why isn't Kubiak jumping down David's throat or benching him for these "dinks and dunks"?


Seems to me that is Kubiaks game plan..

I don't believe that Kubiak is just playing David because David is making a bunch of money.

I really believe that Kubiak is using this whole season as an evaluation period to get "his" type of guys on this team.

If you are correct, then I am really concerned about my season tickets because they are going to be worthless in the near future.

The Texans are headed to the scrapheap fast, forget about the excuses, it is just reality.

To be successful in the NFL, you need playmakers and you have to take risks. The Texans have or do neither. That's the facts of life in the NFL, no excuses need apply...

Wolf
12-12-2006, 07:03 PM
If you are correct, then I am really concerned about my season tickets because they are going to be worthless in the near future.

The Texans are headed to the scrapheap fast, forget about the excuses, it is just reality.

To be successful in the NFL, you need playmakers and you have to take risks. The Texans have or do neither. That's the facts of life in the NFL, no excuses need apply...

well didn't you think this was a rebuilding period due to new coaching staff new front office?

Wolf
12-13-2006, 06:32 PM
funny how most of the bashers of Carr don't respond to the original question. :hmmm:

tsip
12-13-2006, 06:45 PM
funny how most of the bashers of Carr don't respond to the original question. :hmmm:

There has already been posts on other threads about this--after almost every game, Kubiak mentions 'lost' oppurtunities down field. However, he is the HC, so I don't understand what exactly is preventing Carr from going verticle. Depending on which one you ask, each gives an answer that makes no sense...

dbspi
12-13-2006, 06:53 PM
But if he had a game buster type RB, then a dink and a dunk to him for 40 to 50 yds running would be great. Am I correct?

We just need to get a big play type RB and My guess is, this whole mess will clear itself up. Until then, dink and dunk away.... :hides:

BINGO, ALONG WITH BETTER LINE PLAY

dbspi
12-13-2006, 06:56 PM
Kubiak Is Very Limited In Play Calling Due To Line Play.

HOOK'EM
12-14-2006, 12:44 AM
I agree I hate the dinks and dunks they bore me to death

and unfortuantly that has become the trademark of Carr and the Texans.

I know when they pulled Carr the second half of that Tennessee game, I don't remember seeing alot of dinks and dunks?

HOOK'EM
12-14-2006, 12:45 AM
I also dont remember seeing any more sacks that game?

ib4texans
12-14-2006, 12:15 PM
I also dont remember seeing any more sacks that game?



Yeah, I'm sure some people will consider that our best game of the season. We didn't win we lost,but Hooorah! David Carr wasn't playing.

The issue of sacks has been covered more times than necessary, the Titans D loosened up and wasn't playing pressure D.

canadiantexan
12-14-2006, 12:18 PM
I agree. especially because he started the season out so hott......but we will see soon...

That's when our O-Line was still intact and occasionally gave him some time to throw. that is no longer the case.:marionaner: (just wanted to use that)

tsip
12-14-2006, 12:24 PM
Yeah, I'm sure some people will consider that our best game of the season. We didn't win we lost,but Hooorah! David Carr wasn't playing.

The issue of sacks has been covered more times than necessary, the Titans D loosened up and wasn't playing pressure D.

Titans web site said they played the same...

ib4texans
12-14-2006, 12:39 PM
Titans web site said they played the same...




Well if they played the same then our line must of taken some vitamins at the half, because I sure didn't see Sage doing to much scrambling around. I did see him step up into the pocket once.

Point still is we lost, the play calling was opened up because we were coming from behind. Just like it was against the Jets. When Sage came in against the Jags, he didn't produce because of the limited play calling.

tsip
12-14-2006, 04:22 PM
Well if they played the same then our line must of taken some vitamins at the half, because I sure didn't see Sage doing to much scrambling around. I did see him step up into the pocket once.

Point still is we lost, the play calling was opened up because we were coming from behind. Just like it was against the Jets. When Sage came in against the Jags, he didn't produce because of the limited play calling.

No, Sage can 'work' the pocket and read the defense--as several other posters noted, when Sage came in, Kubiak 'turned off' max protect, which opened up the offense--something Gary does not feel comfortable doing when Carr is in...

Too, what defense do you think they were in that allowed us 3 tds?...oh, and the Jags game. We had the lead--like Capers, Kubiak sits on leads--if we'd been behind, Gary would have opened it up with Sage in there...

kenneth24
12-14-2006, 04:46 PM
Kubiak Is Very Limited In Play Calling Due To Line Play.

I know its already been covered but can we see a shotgun? Whats to lose? Carr gets hit again? Last 3 games just let it all hang out!

ib4texans
12-14-2006, 04:55 PM
No, Sage can 'work' the pocket and read the defense--as several other posters noted, when Sage came in, Kubiak 'turned off' max protect, which opened up the offense--something Gary does not feel comfortable doing when Carr is in...

Too, what defense do you think they were in that allowed us 3 tds?...oh, and the Jags game. We had the lead--like Capers, Kubiak sits on leads--if we'd been behind, Gary would have opened it up with Sage in there...

Originally Posted by ib4texans
Well if they played the same then our line must of taken some vitamins at the half, because I sure didn't see Sage doing to much scrambling around. I did see him step up into the pocket once.
Point still is we lost, the play calling was opened up because we were coming from behind. Just like it was against the Jets. When Sage came in against the Jags, he didn't produce because of the limited play calling.

No, Sage can 'work' the pocket and read the defense--as several other posters noted,see above ^ when Sage came in, Kubiak 'turned off' max protect, which opened up the offense--something Gary does not feel comfortable doing when Carr is in...see above against Jets ^
Too, what defense do you think they were in that allowed us 3 tds?...oh, and the Jags game. We had the lead--like Capers, Kubiak sits on leads--if we'd been behind, Gary would have opened it up with Sage in there...Already noted above limited play calling^

I'm not sure what points your trying to make ?

thunderkyss
12-14-2006, 05:13 PM
I agree. especially because he started the season out so hott......but we will see soon...

3 fumbles against INdy.... 2 lost.

3 fumbles against Washington..... 2 lost.

2 fumbles against Miami.... 1 lost.

2 INTs against Dallas...... 1 inexcusably his fault.

0 turnovers against Jacksonville.

1 INT against Tenn... his fault, 2 fumbles against Tenn..... 1 lost



in what way are you using the word "hot"??

t_flare
12-14-2006, 05:55 PM
I know its already been covered but can we see a shotgun? Whats to lose? Carr gets hit again? Last 3 games just let it all hang out!

He said he didnt want to until Hodgens is ready to snap shotgun... serious too..

kenneth24
12-14-2006, 06:15 PM
He said he didnt want to until Hodgens is ready to snap shotgun... serious too..

Thats the in-house reason for not doing the shotgun? :shots:

Really? How can you make it to the pro's and not know be able to snap the shotgun? I'm sure it relates to snapping and still getting to his block but I don't remember them doing the shotgun with Flanagan either.

Ibar_Harry
12-14-2006, 06:29 PM
Thats the in-house reason for not doing the shotgun? :shots:

Really? How can you make it to the pro's and not know be able to snap the shotgun? I'm sure it relates to snapping and still getting to his block but I don't remember them doing the shotgun with Flanagan either.

Kubiak grins in a news conference and says we won't use the shotgun, but he ain't revealing why. Its a locker room thing. Some say its because of Carr others say its because of the line. It may be just how many more yards you can loose in that position. Anyway if you believe what Kubiak says, you probably will not see the shotgun this year.

the wonger need food
12-14-2006, 06:32 PM
Thats the in-house reason for not doing the shotgun? :shots:

Really? How can you make it to the pro's and not know be able to snap the shotgun? I'm sure it relates to snapping and still getting to his block but I don't remember them doing the shotgun with Flanagan either.

Wrong and wrong. It has nothing to do with the Center. The problem is that Carr has to take his eyes off of the defense. Things are already too fast for him and making him take his attention away from the defense for even a second makes matters worse.

the wonger need food
12-14-2006, 06:43 PM
funny how most of the bashers of Carr don't respond to the original question. :hmmm:

I'll address these for ya....

There are opportunities for plays downfield, but the game is moving too fast for your boy so he gets scared and checks down to the closest receiver. Kubiak now understands what he has in Carr so there's no reason for yelling at him when he gets called for an illegal forward pass twice in the same game, or constantly dinks the ball because he's scared. He understands that we're shopping the guy for a draft pick.

Carr is currently the only option on this roster. In addition, when you give a guy a 3-year extension for multiple millions of dollars you have to evaluate him in every situation. Unfortunately for Dinkin' Davie and the organization, he has failed severely.

Let's all pray that Carr isn't "his" type of guy. If he is, we're looking at 5 more seasons of losing.

Second Honeymoon
12-14-2006, 06:49 PM
I'll address these for ya....

There are opportunities for plays downfield, but the game is moving too fast for your boy so he gets scared and checks down to the closest receiver. Kubiak now understands what he has in Carr so there's no reason for yelling at him when he gets called for an illegal forward pass twice in the same game, or constantly dinks the ball because he's scared. He understands that we're shopping the guy for a draft pick.

Carr is currently the only option on this roster. In addition, when you give a guy a 3-year extension for multiple millions of dollars you have to evaluate him in every situation. Unfortunately for Dinkin' Davie and the organization, he has failed severely.

Let's all pray that Carr isn't "his" type of guy. If he is, we're looking at 5 more seasons of losing.


Aside from Daniels & Ryans, the offseason was worse case scenario in nearly every aspect. Kubes' plan has been met with failure around every turn.

MrMeToo
12-14-2006, 06:57 PM
As much as a Carr homer/lover I am, I am tired of the dink and dunks! I dont know if the dinks fall to Carr or Kubiak who tells him to get the ball out of his hands and push the drive? Im thinking a little of both because I asked a question as to where Moulds was and someone replied he was open but Carr threw it to Lundy on most of those plays.

So, I'd say Carr is doing what Kubiak is telling him to do, but I also think Carr on some plays (RARE) to take a half second and scan the field again. Then again he might want to take a chance and just throw it deep like he has done with AJ who cant make a typical catch but will make a grab between 2 defenders.

Finally something I agree with you on...

dantem
12-14-2006, 07:14 PM
Aside from Daniels & Ryans, the offseason was worse case scenario in nearly every aspect. Kubes' plan has been met with failure around every turn.

You see it that way because you think his plan was to build a team in 1 year. see it for what it is, a 3 year rebuilding plan, and you might see it like most folks in the league, One of the best drafts ever....

but if your one of those folks that is still crying about VY or RB (not saying that you are), you may not ever be able to recover, It's been a long time since the draft, if your still having trouble with it you should probably seek counceling.

thunderkyss
12-14-2006, 07:42 PM
It is both. Watch Carr's head. On some plays he looks at the deep receiver and then checks down. On many plays his first look is at an underneath WR who he then hits for 4-8 yds--those are designed 1st read plays given to him by Kubiak.

That's right....... good point.

It's sad to watch, you have seen Cutler's arm strength he can throw the deep ball. David Carr's #1 WR in college was Bernard Berrian, he threw deep all the time. He has good field vision, he just doesn't get recievers with much seperation. This offense is designed to go 6-12 for a long play and 3-5 for a typical play, that's why we have long sustained drives when it's functioning and failing drives whenever we try to stretch the field. There are just not enough downs to make up for the dropped ball down field.:twocents:

Yes & NO...... you're right, we don't get seperation by our recievers, and I think it is apparent that David likes a lot of seperation.

Try this on for size... we have a patch-work O-line. Kubiak's plan is too save Super Dave's life. He see's film every day showing every team send the dogs after his QB. When we get a line that will protect him... then the long pass will help with the run. This won't happen this year. So we do what we can without risking his career for next year. In fact, how he is still alive. Lesson this year get rid of the ball.

That's a good point as well. I believe we actually have a better team with the front five we have now, with the exception of Salaam........ that in no way mean that Salaam is hopeless, he's playing well, I don't think there is a big drop off between how Salaam is playing, and how we can realistically expect Spencer to be playing at this time...... but I expect Spencer to get better as the year goes on, wear Salaam is probably playing as good as he's going to early in the year, and slow down some as the rigors of football in the trenches take effect.

But I believe our problem is learning to play the right way, and learning to play with each other......they've only been playing together for three weeks now??

Wolf
12-15-2006, 05:13 PM
I'll address these for ya....

There are opportunities for plays downfield, but the game is moving too fast for your boy so he gets scared and checks down to the closest receiver. Kubiak now understands what he has in Carr so there's no reason for yelling at him when he gets called for an illegal forward pass twice in the same game, or constantly dinks the ball because he's scared. He understands that we're shopping the guy for a draft pick.

Carr is currently the only option on this roster. In addition, when you give a guy a 3-year extension for multiple millions of dollars you have to evaluate him in every situation. Unfortunately for Dinkin' Davie and the organization, he has failed severely.

Let's all pray that Carr isn't "his" type of guy. If he is, we're looking at 5 more seasons of losing.

hmm so the Oakland game is the "straw that broke the camels back"? (on kubiak yelling at him?)

:ok:

My point is Carr is going to get paid no matter what, so if Kubiak is upset with the Qb play, he'd put in a player that will do what he is coached (if Carr really isn't doing what he is coached).

phan1
12-15-2006, 08:01 PM
I'm very curious about the Kubiak/Carr relationship. It should be obvious that Carr is not playing at the level he needs to play at, but when Kubiak talks, his genera attitude is "he's struggling a bit, but we're working on it. Give it time." He hasn't said that he's been dissappointed with his play a la MW, so I have no idea what he's thinking. Yeah, he's gotten on him for not protecting the football, but otherwise, it doesn't seem like Kubiak is not nearly concerned with our QB situation as we are. Just what is he thinking? Even Shanahan made it clear to Plummer that he better get his butt in gear or he's going to get benched.

edo783
12-15-2006, 10:23 PM
hmm so the Oakland game is the "straw that broke the camels back"? (on kubiak yelling at him?)

Turned out that Kubes was hollering at him and Carr had done exactly what the coaching staff had told him to do. Kubes appoligized to Carr on Monday about it. They had told him the wrong thing to do in that situation. Does ANYONE really think that Carr is doing anything but EXACTLY what Kubiack tells him? Kubes would be up in his grill at light speed if he ever went off plan. The dink and dunk is all Kubes and all based on the lack of protection. He has even said so in press conferences and yet "Why doesn't Carr chuck it down field" is brought up every day and if he just went and did that on his own, he would be sitting on the bench in a heart beat. It's one read at about 7- 10 yards, not there, dump. About 85% of the time the first read is AJ and he has problems getting quick separation, so the 7-10 quick isn't there much, hence all the short dinks and dunks. There isn't time for the second read and that is what is starting to make Moulds irritated. IMO, he would be a better first read at 7-10 yards than AJ as he seems like he can get quick separation, not to mention the better hands. I think the trying to get it to AJ all the time is wrong headed and is causing some of our issues, but the underlying root cause is the O-line.

HOOK'EM
12-16-2006, 04:10 AM
I'll address these for ya....

There are opportunities for plays downfield, but the game is moving too fast for your boy so he gets scared and checks down to the closest receiver. Kubiak now understands what he has in Carr so there's no reason for yelling at him when he gets called for an illegal forward pass twice in the same game, or constantly dinks the ball because he's scared. He understands that we're shopping the guy for a draft pick.

Carr is currently the only option on this roster. In addition, when you give a guy a 3-year extension for multiple millions of dollars you have to evaluate him in every situation. Unfortunately for Dinkin' Davie and the organization, he has failed severely.

Let's all pray that Carr isn't "his" type of guy. If he is, we're looking at 5 more seasons of losing.


Amen Wonger, tell it like it is.............Carr has to go!

elbison
12-16-2006, 04:44 PM
IMO, he <MOULDS> would be a better first read at 7-10 yards than AJ as he seems like he can get quick separation, not to mention the better hands. I think the trying to get it to AJ all the time is wrong headed and is causing some of our issues, but the underlying root cause is the O-line.


GREAT POINT......:shades:

tsip
12-16-2006, 06:20 PM
"Kubes' plan has been met with failure around every turn."
__________________


Kube never had a plan or--if he did--he never even tried to use it. We've had the same game plan since the first game, which included zero vertical passing game...we haven't even had Caper's '2 downs and a cloud of dust' offense this year...so much from the 'guru!'

thunderkyss
12-16-2006, 07:28 PM
"Kubes' plan has been met with failure around every turn."
__________________


Kube never had a plan or--if he did--he never even tried to use it. We've had the same game plan since the first game, which included zero vertical passing game...we haven't even had Caper's '2 downs and a cloud of dust' offense this year...so much from the 'guru!'

had that coin come up Tails.. and Kris Brown kicked a 56 yard field goal to win the game... would we even be having this conversation??

Wolf
12-16-2006, 07:30 PM
had that coin come up Tails.. and Kris Brown kicked a 56 yard field goal to win the game... would we even be having this conversation??

or if we got that pooched kick that went out of bounds instead of us getting it...stuff happens