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View Full Version : AARRRGGGH!!! Peyton Manning couldnt play behind our O-Line/playcalling


Jeffery
12-07-2006, 03:22 AM
:brickwall
Ok, I had to reset my password and get re-signed back up because all of this simplemindedness is KILLING ME!

Only the simple minded or intellectually challenged need a single focal point for a failure or lack of performance. In almost EVERY SINGLE case, in EVERY environment, it is a COMBINATION of causes that lead to a perceived or real failure to achieve said objectives.

I will start by saying I am not a Carr fan, and that I don't think he is the answer. That way the short-sighted of you will actually READ the following, instead of forming an opinion of what I am going to say immediately and jumping straight to the bottom.

With that said, there isn't a QB in the game that could play behind our O-Line and offensive play calling right now except for maybe Vick... and maybe VY. (not proposing the VY debate at all). The reason I say that is because our O-line is basically a set of turnstiles for the defense on their way to the QB, and there is rarely ever an 'outlet" in the play for when the QB is under pressure. The only QB that could succeed in this offense is one that doubles as a running back like Vick and VY, providing the O-Line could provide him at least one lousy block to get him back to LOS.

Have any of you people even watched the games?? When you have trouble getting into a three step drop before the defense is on you, it is NOT solely on the shoulders of the QB. The O-line has failed to protect, the play calling has failed to provide a quick outlet for the QB to throw to, and there is no threat of a run or the defense would not be rushing the passer every single play.

Look at how long it took them in the Raiders game to control Dayne. Do you really think that it was big Ron Dayne that had a great game?? He did pretty good, and showed a lot of effort but it took that long for the defense to get out of the rush the passer mentality. They still had Carr's blood scent in their nostrils and forgot out to look for a RB. Dayne is a CAREER backup who has failed to catch on at any team in how many years??? They make him look like the second coming of the bus in his first game back. Good for him, but it says more about focus of the defense than it does about his performance.

Rosenfels - Ok this one is a fun one. This guy has never succeeded ANYWHERE. Who was he backing up again in Miami?? I dont even need to say it. He has a couple games (pre-season) and you guys think he is Joe Montana. You are so eager to find something simple to blame the team's performance on. It is quite easy to blame Carr isn't it?? Quite convenient. So convenient it doesnt even require thought, or brains. Sage isn't a bad QB, but he is NOT a star. Any of you who actually saw the Titans game that you have based your opinion of him as the savior of our offense, would have noticed that the Titans let up a LOT in their defense. They thought he was gonna be running the ball, so weren't prepared for it when he passed. Look at the formations they were in.

Back to the QB situation. What do you do to beat the Colts?? You pressure Manning. Simple, clean cut. You get pressure on him, he crumbles. That is why he has difficulty in the playoffs. He doesn't play well under pressure. Neither did Moon, or Marino. Heck the poster child QB from last year doesn't play well with defenders in his face, see his performance this year? (Roethlesburger). Not every QB can have the presence of a Joe Montana or Elway. Not every QB can run like a Vick or McNabb to elude pressure. You stick pretty much any QB in our offense right now and you would think they "suck". I don't care if Manning was in there, you guys would be calling for his head and blaming whoever it was that brought him here, calling them loser, etc.

When the QB cannot get into a three step drop before the defense is on him, its not his fault. When Fred Weary (#70) is getting run over like a train hit him and literally flying backwards, its not the QB's fault. When Winston cant even find his man as he is running around him to the QB, its not the QB's fault. When the QB has the pocket collapse on him in under 3 seconds, and it collapses around him with no option for lateral movement, its not his fault. When the pocket collapses on him in 3-4 seconds and NOBODY picks it up and comes back for the dump and there is no option in the play calling for an outlet, its not the QB's fault. That QB Carr got rattled early, but nobody could have played in that offense as a QB that day. Not without a RB or some protection. He made errors just like the rest of the team. The rest of the team should share blame though in that -5 passing yards, along with him. Or is just too easy for your intellects to blame one person than realize we have a bigger problem???

Carr does cause some of the sacks by holding onto the ball. He causes some of the batted passes and int's by staring down receivers. He doesn't inspire the O-line to protect him that well. But please oh please cease this boundless, groundless banter that HE is "THE" problem with our team, and our offense. That is just plain asinine. Absolutely ridiculous.

Let me ask you another question. When an offense makes a fumble, because the defense forced it....was it a poor offense or great defense that caused the fumble?? If you are a newspaper editor or a MB junkie, its the offense that screwed up and they are horrible. Thats easier and more glamorous. Actually, to players its the defense that forced it, and they should get credit as a good play. The Raiders didnt drop any balls while they were running down the field. The Texans FORCED the fumbles by their tackling and going after the ball.

Oh please oh please, dont you dare bring up Romo. Dallas and Houston are different animals. Dallas HAS an offensive line. Romo can go into a 5 step drop if he wants to. When the pocket collapses its not like the Houston pocket collapse where it implodes, he still can run out of it laterally. He still has movement. Dallas was a 9-7 team last year with a crappy QB? And before that they were still pretty good with that guy now playing in the Canadian league. They had a team before Romo, he is just surfing the wave that was already there and pulling off some better tricks. We don't have a wave to surf yet here in Houston, thanks to the past blunders in FA and the draft.

This must be our American way. Like our political system. Republican OR Democrat, right or wrong, black or white. What about the rest of the ideas, graduation of blame, and other colors?? I REFUSE to believe that everyone in America thinks in a "template" that agrees with everything either the Republicans think or the Democrats think. The two party system is a ludicrous as the idea that in every argument one person is right and the other is wrong. It's just too ingrained and corrupt to be changed.

Kinda like your football ideas eh?

Can you tell all these posts irritated me???...just a bit? :)

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 03:36 AM
LMBO we will never know if that is true or not. I however say yes because he will bring a presence to the field that will cause our players to play harder and do their job right. Besides every poster has zero credibilaty because this is just a message board. They know he is capable of doing things and know that he can get them wins.

LOL Having the Manning in the house, would NOT turn the guys on our line into capable linemen. You get a small increase in performance with motivation and confidence, but maybe that would be enough to consistently get a 3 step drop in. You can have all the drive and motivation in the world, but without the talent it won't work. And that O-Line, especially with 3 starters out, doesnt have the talent. They were much better at the beginning of the year, but still not good.

You would still need a running threat and some pass calling to slow them down (other than the screen and reverse).

What he would bring is someone else who can call the plays. He may actually call a play that leaves him an outlet before he is smashed in that meat grinder we call an offensive line. Once he has passed to that outlet enough times, maybe the defense will back off the pass rush a bit enough to where he can get other passes in. Which brings us to the other problem. Maybe Carr can't call plays like Manning, but the coaches sure can. When it takes them 3 quarters to adjust, if ever, that is a problem. Not THE problem, but "a" problem. Remember there is more than one problem, there is more than right or wrong, and wow there are folks out there who agree with some of what the Democrats stand for and for some of what the Republicans stand for.

Oh crap, I just forgot. Manning cannot play with pressure. When he gets folks in his face, or running him down from behind, his play is horrible. He goes from QB wizard to playing like a backup and making mistakes......almost (but not as bad as) our QB.

Wonder what Carr could do in Indianapolis? With an O-Line, a running game, and a playbook, and audibles?

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 04:02 AM
yeah tell that too vince and the titans. They had the same bad offense as ours and look how they panned out. Carr homers always give the same excuse.

Lol, I have never heard this "Carr homer" thing until I started reading the boards again recently. It smacks of the petulant name calling we did in grade school, like mama's boy, or butt kisser. Or in older times, you Communist, you Jew, etc....

So I add the "Carr homer and Carr basher" to the list along with "Republican and Democrat", "right and wrong", and "black and white". So a "Carr homer" is someone who dares point out that there is more problems than Carr on the team. And a "Carr Basher" is the one who thinks that Carr is the sole reason for the offensive struggles, the inability to win games, the direction of the franchise, the state of football today, the price of gas, FEMA, pollution, political corruption, lobbyists, global warming, and that darn headache you woke up with today. Its all his fault isn't it. Did I leave anything out? Is there any room at all for someone who things you have to fix the team first, before you worry about bringing in another QB to trash? ...that maybe the O-line, playcalling, no run game, coaching, AND the QB are at fault?

Tennessee had a running game, and had play calling. We have neither. They had some difficulties in the run game, because they had no ability or threat to pass, so defenses keyed on the run.

There is no "one player" fix to any team. Not even a QB.

You want to know how to fix this?? You spend whatever you need to spend to get some quality OL in here from FA. They are the anchors of the team, not the QB. You find a way to pay them whatever is required and you draft some more OL in the draft. Once you have an OL in place that can protect the QB for enough time to get into a 5 step drop and go through 2-3 of his reads, THEN and ONLY THEN do you get a new QB. OL first, QB second.

In the meantime, you start working on short routes with outlets, not just slants where Carr is still in the middle of the pocket. They paid a lot of lip service to his ability to roll out, and he can do it. Lets see it. Lets see him head on a bootleg immediately instead of going to the pocket before fleeing for his life. He ran the shotgun in a game a couple years ago, and did just fine. Lets see how he does in the shotgun. He can't read the offense very well anyway, so the amount of concentration it takes to catch that ball wont effect him much. Plus, I think he played shotgun at Fresno.

MightyTExan
12-07-2006, 07:42 AM
What kills me about Carr is on the few chances he has to make a play, he doesn't. He looks downfield and is about to throw and pulls it down. Make a play dude.
Frustrating.

Kaiser Toro
12-07-2006, 07:47 AM
I totally agree with you. That is why you should never draft a QB at #1 in the salary cap era. However, we made it worse by extending Carr given the state of our line and, in my opinion, the glass eyes and happy feet from the sacks the first year.

real
12-07-2006, 08:42 AM
With that said, there isn't a QB in the game that could play behind our O-Line and offensive play calling right now except for maybe Vick...

You lost me after this line.....

:tearup:

joshri
12-07-2006, 08:42 AM
Manning could definitely play behind our line.

For goodness sake, look at Matt Leinart. He is a rookie and plays behind a worse O line than Houston's and is playing much better than Carr. Hell, he is already a better QB than Carr is and Carr has been in the league for however many years.

real
12-07-2006, 08:44 AM
For goodness sake, look at Matt Leinart.


Bingo.

hot pickle
12-07-2006, 09:20 AM
AARRRGGGH!!! Peyton Manning couldnt play behind our O-Line/playcalling


shut up

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:23 AM
Manning could definitely play behind our line.

For goodness sake, look at Matt Leinart. He is a rookie and plays behind a worse O line than Houston's and is playing much better than Carr. Hell, he is already a better QB than Carr is and Carr has been in the league for however many years.

You may have been right about the O-Line at the beginning of the year. However, Leinert does have some time to throw behind that O-Line, more so than what Houston has had the past 6 games or so. I have only seen 2 of his games, and he looks good. But, he also has time to throw. There has been no worse O-Line in the game than Houston's in the past couple games. The playcalling has been unoriginal as well. The Cardinals at least had a couple of neat plays that gave Leinert a chance.

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:26 AM
shut up

Haha, typical response from someone who lacks either maturity or the ability to think past "me hungry", "me like".

I know, it is tough for you to to comprehend that there is more than one player on this team that is part of the problem.

Again, fix the O-Line first. Then get a QB.

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:27 AM
Bingo.

Have you even watched the Cardinals game, or only watched the highlights on the pre-game shows?

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:31 AM
Manning can get the ball out of his hand with after 1-2 seconds after the snap. Just watch him sometime when the blitz comes. He reads it quickly and the ball is gone. That is why he is not sacked often. He has a superior line but that doesn't matter. If he was behind this line, he would be fine becasue he IS AN NFL QB.

Carr isn't. He has proven he isn't.

I have watched the Colts for many years, as I lived in the area for work when I was in the military.

He can get the ball out of his hands quickly, because he adjusts to what the defense presents to him via audibles. He also has short targets and his receivers are better at coming back when they recognize the blitz. Our guys just run out their pattern most of the time.

He is NOT a good QB when he has defenders close to him or in his face. If you can pressure Manning he crumbles. If he can get rid of the ball before you pressure him, he is still the QB wizard. HOWEVER, in our line he would be pressured before that happened. He would have to play with guys in his face as our QB does, and he would not play well. The Texans "fans' would boo him and think he sucks, because they need someone to hate.

Hateful little tards so many are.

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:34 AM
I totally agree with you. That is why you should never draft a QB at #1 in the salary cap era. However, we made it worse by extending Carr given the state of our line and, in my opinion, the glass eyes and happy feet from the sacks the first year.

I think we did the right thing in extending him. I think we screwed up by not bringing more talent in for the O-Line and for not planning playcalling around 1-2 second deliveries.

We can worry about bringing in a QB when we have an O-line that can protect, and playcalling that offers more ways than the slant to quickly get rid of the ball.

real
12-07-2006, 09:36 AM
Have you even watched the Cardinals game, or only watched the highlights on the pre-game shows?

Yes.

Vinny
12-07-2006, 09:37 AM
I totally agree with you. That is why you should never draft a QB at #1 in the salary cap era. However, we made it worse by extending Carr given the state of our line and, in my opinion, the glass eyes and happy feet from the sacks the first year.
Yeah, the Colts were fools to take Manning first overall.

on the thread in general...

Upgrade the talent at QB and you have a....more talented QB! Manning helps his line out by not putting them in bad positions constantly. He is a part of why that offense runs well. Manning came to a rotten Colts team too...but it didn't stay rotten forever like ours. If it doesn't matter what the talent is at QB you should just pay some guy 1mil a year to manage games...but it matters who is standing behind center. If it didn't teams wouldn't be drafting guys like Cutler to replace guys like Plummer.

real
12-07-2006, 09:38 AM
I think we did the right thing in extending him. I think we screwed up by not bringing more talent in for the O-Line and for not planning playcalling around 1-2 second deliveries.

We can worry about bringing in a QB when we have an O-line that can protect, and playcalling that offers more ways than the slant to quickly get rid of the ball.

You really didn't have to start a new thread for this.....

But....

Our QB is pathetic and I don't think we can properly evaluate our O-line until we bring in a QB that knows how to play the position...

real
12-07-2006, 09:39 AM
Yeah, the Colts were fools to take Manning first overall.

on the thread in general...

Upgrade the talent at QB and you have a....more talented QB! Manning helps his line out by not putting them in bad positions constantly. He is a part of why that offense runs well. Manning came to a rotten Colts team too...but it didn't stay rotten forever like ours. If it doesn't matter what the talent is at QB you should just pay some guy 1mil a year to manage games...but it matters who is standing behind center. If it didn't teams wouldn't be drafting guys like Cutler to replace guys like Plummer.

B-I-N-G-O.....and bingo was his name-o

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:41 AM
Yes.

LOL, ok well I have only seen 2 full games from the Cardinals, and a couple other Cardinal games flipping through while watching other games.

BUT, I go on record as disagreeing that the Cardinals O-line is worse than the Texans. I think the Texans is the worst in league right now. The Raiders game was a complete embarrassment. I don't know how they left their homes the next day without a bag over their heads. (That DOES include Carr with the O-Line)

I will be sure to watch the Cardinals game this week with my stopwatch and get back with you. :)

real
12-07-2006, 09:43 AM
I will be sure to watch the Cardinals game this week with my stopwatch and get back with you. :)

I really don't see what good that'll do.....

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:50 AM
Yeah, the Colts were fools to take Manning first overall.

on the thread in general...

Upgrade the talent at QB and you have a....more talented QB! Manning helps his line out by not putting them in bad positions constantly. He is a part of why that offense runs well. Manning came to a rotten Colts team too...but it didn't stay rotten forever like ours. If it doesn't matter what the talent is at QB you should just pay some guy 1mil a year to manage games...but it matters who is standing behind center. If it didn't teams wouldn't be drafting guys like Cutler to replace guys like Plummer.

It most definitely does matter who plays QB. However, unless you have some semblence of protection from the O-Line, Playcalling, threat of the running game, and receivers who come back when they know you are in trouble, a better QB will not be much more successful. You also risk getting him hurt or shell shocked if you cannot protect him.

Manning puts them in better positions in most of the games yes. Even when he started in Indy, he had better protection than we have now here. But he puts them in better position by getting rid of the ball quickly via recievers that know when to come back for the ball, audibles/better play calling, and an O-Line that does give him the time to get rid of the ball.

Carr can def do a much better job of quickly getting rid of the ball. Sometimes he does have an outlet that he doesnt see. I was only pointing out that often, there is NO play to get rid of the ball quickly, his receivers didnt come back to help him out, and that often he cant even get into the 3 step drop.

Texanfan4ever
12-07-2006, 09:52 AM
Have you even watched the Cardinals game, or only watched the highlights on the pre-game shows?


Jeffrey, thanks for trying. And you are right. This situation parrallels the republican/democrat situation and obviously on a much more ridiculous level, but you will never find a middle ground here, and you will never change the minds of the haters. To look at it rationally as your first post does is out of the question for that group. They are tired of losing and Carr is the easiest to Blame.

Carr actually had a reprieve in the first half of the season from the haters on this board because he was holding his own, a few of them, even though they won't admit it now, saw light with him. Then all of our starters became injured, we lost half the o-line, and now here we are, it is once again Carr's fault.

Too bad the defense hadn't been playing the way they are now in the first half of the year, it could have been great.

I am a Carr homer, and still am, but you have to begin to wonder. More than that, if I was Carr, I think I would want to be done here, even though he finally has a coach he respects that has helped him greatly to undo the past, not totally, as seen last week, but a lot. It WAS working. Now they are attacking his family. Sad.....

You are wasting your breath though, they will never hear you. I love the effort though.

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:52 AM
I really don't see what good that'll do.....

To compare the average time from snap to release/sack or pressure that causes QB to run between the teams (on pass plays).

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 09:56 AM
Jeffrey, thanks for trying. And you are right. This situation parrallels the republican/democrat situation and obviously on a much more ridiculous level, but you will never find a middle ground here, and you will never change the minds of the haters. To look at it rationally as your first post does is out of the question for that group. They are tired of losing and Carr is the easiest to Blame.

Carr actually had a reprieve in the first half of the season from the haters on this board because he was holding his own, a few of them, even though they won't admit it now, saw light with him. Then all of our starters became injured, we lost half the o-line, and now here we are, it is once again Carr's fault.

Too bad the defense hadn't been playing the way they are now in the first half of the year, it could have been great.

I am a Carr homer, and still am, but you have to begin to wonder. More than that, if I was Carr, I think I would want to be done here, even though he finally has a coach he respects that has helped him greatly to undo the past, not totally, as seen last week, but a lot. It WAS working. Now they are attacking his family. Sad.....

You are wasting your breath though, they will never hear you. I love the effort though.


LOL, thanks. I def agree that Carr prob wants out of here pretty bad. I think any QB that has a chance in heck to start, would want out of here. The only QB that would "want" to play here is one who can't start somewhere else.

infantrycak
12-07-2006, 09:57 AM
on the thread in general...

Upgrade the talent at QB and you have a....more talented QB!

Exactly. Why folks fight this is mind boggling and it has nothing to do with Carr or any specific player. Put in a better QB you improve the team. Put in a better RB you improve the team. Put in better CBs you improve the team. It is a simple equation. Maybe they don't improve the team to play the same as their old team (Edge isn't going to make Arizona into Indy and Manning wouldn't make the Texans the Colts) but they will improve the team.

Texanfan4ever
12-07-2006, 09:57 AM
Yeah, VY is probably thanking his lucky stars. LOL

Kubes will eventually get it worked out though.

I BELIEVE!!!!

Carr Bombed
12-07-2006, 09:58 AM
Oakland has the worst Oline in the league, they can't run or pass. We've been able to do both inconsistently

It has gotten worse with all the injuries though.

HJam72
12-07-2006, 09:59 AM
To compare the average time from snap to release/sack or pressure that causes QB to run between the teams (on pass plays).

They won't listen to that becasue they say Carr sacks himself. I don't see that, but he does seem like a magnet for pass rushers. Maybe it's electrical fields or something. :rolleyes:

real
12-07-2006, 10:03 AM
unless you have some semblence of protection from the O-Line, Playcalling, threat of the running game, and receivers who come back when they know you are in trouble, a better QB will not be much more successful.

Team...........Rush............Avg.

Bengals.......316...............3.7
Texans........311...............3.8


Team..........Sacks allowed
Bengals.............30
Texans..............36


Andre, and Eric.....

T.J, and Chad.....


Looking at our backs collectively we have about the same amount of rushing yards this season....O-line has allowed 6 more sacks....Not exactly the same, but not too far off.....Looks like the biggest difference is the QB play....

real
12-07-2006, 10:07 AM
To compare the average time from snap to release/sack or pressure that causes QB to run between the teams (on pass plays).

Theres so many reasons why that would be pointless....

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 10:10 AM
Exactly. Why folks fight this is mind boggling and it has nothing to do with Carr or any specific player. Put in a better QB you improve the team. Put in a better RB you improve the team. Put in better CBs you improve the team. It is a simple equation. Maybe they don't improve the team to play the same as their old team (Edge isn't going to make Arizona into Indy and Manning wouldn't make the Texans the Colts) but they will improve the team.

Obviously. However, you don't hear the simpletons on the board complaining about anything BUT Carr. He is the whole reason for everything isn't he? Replace him and we make the playoffs right? umm no.

Replacing Carr with a better QB without changing the rest of the team is like putting a $3k stereo aond some spinners on a Pinto. You kinda need a better vehicle first.

QUOTE:
So I add the "Carr homer and Carr basher" to the list along with "Republican and Democrat", "right and wrong", and "black and white". So a "Carr homer" is someone who dares point out that there is more problems than Carr on the team. And a "Carr Basher" is the one who thinks that Carr is the sole reason for the offensive struggles, the inability to win games, the direction of the franchise, the state of football today, the price of gas, FEMA, pollution, political corruption, lobbyists, global warming, and that darn headache you woke up with today. Its all his fault isn't it?

It's just easier to grasp that way isn't it?

HJam72
12-07-2006, 10:11 AM
Better yet, you could watch the Colts and Manning. It won't prove much, I suppose, but it'll be like a whole new game.

1 mississippi, 2 mississippi, 3 mississippi, 4 mississippi, 5 mississippi, 6 mississippi....11 mississippi....GEEZ, THROW THE BALL!!! 20 mississippi, good throw! Touchdown!


Wow! How did he do it?

HJam72
12-07-2006, 10:13 AM
Then there's Carr:

1 mississi....F*(&,!....oh, sorry honey. :brickwall

Jeffery
12-07-2006, 10:14 AM
Team...........Rush............Avg.

Bengals.......316...............3.7
Texans........311...............3.8


Team..........Sacks allowed
Bengals.............30
Texans..............36


Andre, and Eric.....

T.J, and Chad.....


Looking at our backs collectively we have about the same amount of rushing yards this season....O-line has allowed 6 more sacks....Not exactly the same, but not too far off.....Looks like the biggest difference is the QB play....

This doesn't tell the whole story though either. TJ and Chad are very aggressive and good at getting open. They fight for balls. AJ lets 5'8" CB's go over the top of him to bat down the balls. He doesnt have the aggression, and has too many drops.

How long did the O-Line give the QB's before they gave up those sacks? Its a combo of O-Line protection vs. QB getting rid of the ball. I bet Cinci can consistently get into a three step drop and go through 2-3 reads.

Also, don't forget when comparing season stats, that the O-Line we have now is not the same as the one we had at the beginning of the year. Can we look at those stats the past 6 games?

Carr Bombed
12-07-2006, 10:14 AM
another problem is Carr/the playcalling, doesn't move people off the line. When teams watch game film and they see nothing but 1-5 yard passes, the defense is not being stretched out. The defense is allowed to sit right at the line with no fear of being burned deep and who really cares if they are, we only throw deep once, twice at the most a game.

We need to show teams we can go deep. I think we need to go to the shotgun more and give the defense something to think about..

HJam72
12-07-2006, 10:15 AM
This doesn't tell the whole story though either. TJ and Chad are very aggressive and good at getting open. They fight for balls. AJ lets 5'8" CB's go over the top of him to bat down the balls. He doesnt have the aggression, and has too many drops.

The other half is neither one of them is getting open. Chad, on the other hand, leaves a thick trail of dust in the CBs face.

real
12-07-2006, 10:17 AM
Obviously. However, you don't hear the simpletons on the board complaining about anything BUT Carr. He is the whole reason for everything isn't he? Replace him and we make the playoffs right? umm no.


The QB is the most important position on the offense, if not the team...The cowboys had lost three in a row, and their hopes were looking bleak for the season, and with one change at the QB they're thinking Superbowl.....Same thing in Tennesee...Collins at the helm, and they were looking to be the worst team in the AFC South....Change the QB and wah-lah....now they have beat some good teams, and are starting to come come around....Bad QB play will hurt you no matter what kind of team you have.

real
12-07-2006, 10:19 AM
This doesn't tell the whole story though either. TJ and Chad are very aggressive and good at getting open. They fight for balls. AJ lets 5'8" CB's go over the top of him to bat down the balls. He doesnt have the aggression, and has too many drops.

How long did the O-Line give the QB's before they gave up those sacks? Its a combo of O-Line protection vs. QB getting rid of the ball. I bet Cinci can consistently get into a three step drop and go through 2-3 reads.

Also, don't forget when comparing season stats, that the O-Line we have now is not the same as the one we had at the beginning of the year. Can we look at those stats the past 6 games?


Sure we can look at the last six games....But the fact that we're playing with 3 second stringers and one guy who didn't even suit up originally, That kinda only makes our line look better....

infantrycak
12-07-2006, 10:23 AM
Obviously. However, you don't hear the simpletons on the board complaining about anything BUT Carr. He is the whole reason for everything isn't he? Replace him and we make the playoffs right? umm no.

Replacing Carr with a better QB without changing the rest of the team is like putting a $3k stereo aond some spinners on a Pinto. You kinda need a better vehicle first.

Yes it is oversimplifying to say Carr is the only problem with the team--no doubt. OTOH, odds are Manning or Brady or Palmer would have 2-3 more wins with this same team and odds are the losses don't look as bad either. That's wild card hunt or one back at this point. I'd enjoy watching that team more, wouldn't you? There are multiple positions on this team which need upgrade but is there another one you can say with certainty a single upgrade would likely result in more wins?--RB probably but other than that it is a maybe, not a likely.

infantrycak
12-07-2006, 10:24 AM
Sure we can look at the last six games....But the fact that we're playing with 3 second stringers and one guy who didn't even suit up originally, That kinda only makes our line look better....

I don't see where that makes our line look better. It makes the play understandable but it doesn't make it any better--it is what it is which is inconsistent as run blockers and well below average as pass blockers.

real
12-07-2006, 10:30 AM
I don't see where that makes our line look better. It makes the play understandable but it doesn't make it any better--it is what it is which is inconsistent as run blockers and well below average as pass blockers.

You're right....it doesn't make them look better....they are what they are....

I meant that it makes you think that if we had all our starters or most of them, then our O-line wouldn't be considered as bad...

kingh99
12-07-2006, 10:30 AM
:brickwall
Ok, I had to reset my password and get re-signed back up because all of this simplemindedness is KILLING ME!

Only the simple minded or intellectually challenged need a single focal point for a failure or lack of performance. In almost EVERY SINGLE case, in EVERY environment, it is a COMBINATION of causes that lead to a perceived or real failure to achieve said objectives.

I will start by saying I am not a Carr fan, and that I don't think he is the answer. That way the short-sighted of you will actually READ the following, instead of forming an opinion of what I am going to say immediately and jumping straight to the bottom.

With that said, there isn't a QB in the game that could play behind our O-Line and offensive play calling right now except for maybe Vick... and maybe VY. (not proposing the VY debate at all). The reason I say that is because our O-line is basically a set of turnstiles for the defense on their way to the QB, and there is rarely ever an 'outlet" in the play for when the QB is under pressure. The only QB that could succeed in this offense is one that doubles as a running back like Vick and VY, providing the O-Line could provide him at least one lousy block to get him back to LOS.

Have any of you people even watched the games?? When you have trouble getting into a three step drop before the defense is on you, it is NOT solely on the shoulders of the QB. The O-line has failed to protect, the play calling has failed to provide a quick outlet for the QB to throw to, and there is no threat of a run or the defense would not be rushing the passer every single play.

Look at how long it took them in the Raiders game to control Dayne. Do you really think that it was big Ron Dayne that had a great game?? He did pretty good, and showed a lot of effort but it took that long for the defense to get out of the rush the passer mentality. They still had Carr's blood scent in their nostrils and forgot out to look for a RB. Dayne is a CAREER backup who has failed to catch on at any team in how many years??? They make him look like the second coming of the bus in his first game back. Good for him, but it says more about focus of the defense than it does about his performance.

Rosenfels - Ok this one is a fun one. This guy has never succeeded ANYWHERE. Who was he backing up again in Miami?? I dont even need to say it. He has a couple games (pre-season) and you guys think he is Joe Montana. You are so eager to find something simple to blame the team's performance on. It is quite easy to blame Carr isn't it?? Quite convenient. So convenient it doesnt even require thought, or brains. Sage isn't a bad QB, but he is NOT a star. Any of you who actually saw the Titans game that you have based your opinion of him as the savior of our offense, would have noticed that the Titans let up a LOT in their defense. They thought he was gonna be running the ball, so weren't prepared for it when he passed. Look at the formations they were in.

Back to the QB situation. What do you do to beat the Colts?? You pressure Manning. Simple, clean cut. You get pressure on him, he crumbles. That is why he has difficulty in the playoffs. He doesn't play well under pressure. Neither did Moon, or Marino. Heck the poster child QB from last year doesn't play well with defenders in his face, see his performance this year? (Roethlesburger). Not every QB can have the presence of a Joe Montana or Elway. Not every QB can run like a Vick or McNabb to elude pressure. You stick pretty much any QB in our offense right now and you would think they "suck". I don't care if Manning was in there, you guys would be calling for his head and blaming whoever it was that brought him here, calling them loser, etc.

When the QB cannot get into a three step drop before the defense is on him, its not his fault. When Fred Weary (#70) is getting run over like a train hit him and literally flying backwards, its not the QB's fault. When Winston cant even find his man as he is running around him to the QB, its not the QB's fault. When the QB has the pocket collapse on him in under 3 seconds, and it collapses around him with no option for lateral movement, its not his fault. When the pocket collapses on him in 3-4 seconds and NOBODY picks it up and comes back for the dump and there is no option in the play calling for an outlet, its not the QB's fault. That QB Carr got rattled early, but nobody could have played in that offense as a QB that day. Not without a RB or some protection. He made errors just like the rest of the team. The rest of the team should share blame though in that -5 passing yards, along with him. Or is just too easy for your intellects to blame one person than realize we have a bigger problem???

Carr does cause some of the sacks by holding onto the ball. He causes some of the batted passes and int's by staring down receivers. He doesn't inspire the O-line to protect him that well. But please oh please cease this boundless, groundless banter that HE is "THE" problem with our team, and our offense. That is just plain asinine. Absolutely ridiculous.

Let me ask you another question. When an offense makes a fumble, because the defense forced it....was it a poor offense or great defense that caused the fumble?? If you are a newspaper editor or a MB junkie, its the offense that screwed up and they are horrible. Thats easier and more glamorous. Actually, to players its the defense that forced it, and they should get credit as a good play. The Raiders didnt drop any balls while they were running down the field. The Texans FORCED the fumbles by their tackling and going after the ball.

Oh please oh please, dont you dare bring up Romo. Dallas and Houston are different animals. Dallas HAS an offensive line. Romo can go into a 5 step drop if he wants to. When the pocket collapses its not like the Houston pocket collapse where it implodes, he still can run out of it laterally. He still has movement. Dallas was a 9-7 team last year with a crappy QB? And before that they were still pretty good with that guy now playing in the Canadian league. They had a team before Romo, he is just surfing the wave that was already there and pulling off some better tricks. We don't have a wave to surf yet here in Houston, thanks to the past blunders in FA and the draft.

This must be our American way. Like our political system. Republican OR Democrat, right or wrong, black or white. What about the rest of the ideas, graduation of blame, and other colors?? I REFUSE to believe that everyone in America thinks in a "template" that agrees with everything either the Republicans think or the Democrats think. The two party system is a ludicrous as the idea that in every argument one person is right and the other is wrong. It's just too ingrained and corrupt to be changed.

Kinda like your football ideas eh?

Can you tell all these posts irritated me???...just a bit? :)

And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I bet McKinney snapped this year and said something smart ass around coach about Pretty Vacant and that was the end of McKinney's playing time. See all the wonderful side effects of having such a weak link at the top?

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 10:32 AM
If we had Manning or Brady , I got to believe the playcalling would change a lot .

Meloy
12-07-2006, 10:37 AM
My two cents: I don't think Smith or Quinn is the answer even if avail. I think Carr is starter next year even if someone offers a trade. Even if someone offered a 2nd round pick for DC, I do not see Kubes taking for at least two reasons. One, he recognizes that Carr could do better with a season with a solid oline and a consistent running game. Two, IMO Kubes still thinks he can salvage Carr. If Carr is gone & we do not have at least a 7-9 record in 2007, the boo birds will come out as "6th year and no winning record."

What do we have to offer in trade for a solid back up QB on another team such as the guy @ KC to replace David? I suggest we hang with Carr and allow Kubes to do his magic as Carr did improve some. Use the first round pick which should be around 6-8 to get best O left tackle. If a very good LT is available in FA go get him. I am really tired of trying guards @ tackle. If Spencer comes back healthy & I hope so, let the 3 fight to start. With the teams history of injuries, we will prob need all three. Even if Wiegert play next season (13th) he should be gone the next. Winston has shown nothing to write his name in as starter in 07 at RT.

There is disagreement if Kolb from UH will be avail in 4th, but I would draft him if he is. At worst, he could be our # 2. We may have to be content with drafting a QB in 2008 draft.

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 10:43 AM
Coming from a person who's down on Carr ... I think Kubiak would take a six pack of Bud Light for him about now . Monday it may be a 16oz. Bud Light .

HOU-TEX
12-07-2006, 10:48 AM
What do we have to offer in trade for a solid back up QB on another team such as the guy @ KC to replace David? I suggest we hang with Carr and allow Kubes to do his magic as Carr did improve some. Use the first round pick which should be around 6-8 to get best O left tackle. If a very good LT is available in FA go get him. I am really tired of trying guards @ tackle. If Spencer comes back healthy & I hope so, let the 3 fight to start. With the teams history of injuries, we will prob need all three. Even if Wiegert play next season (13th) he should be gone the next. Winston has shown nothing to write his name in as starter in 07 at RT.

There is disagreement if Kolb from UH will be avail in 4th, but I would draft him if he is. At worst, he could be our # 2. We may have to be content with drafting a QB in 2008 draft.

As much of a demand there's going to be at QB this offseason, I see Kolb getting picked in the second or early in the third. Maybe even earlier.:cool:

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 10:59 AM
The Great Blue North Draft report has Kolb listed about the 6th ranked QB FWIW .

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 11:19 AM
Jeffrey, I feel your pain, but you will get carpal tunnel syndrome before you can change anyone's mind on this board. As you called some of them simpletons yourself...

Anyway, anyone worth his salt in knowledge of football knows that the most important position on the offense, is the left tackle (right tackle for south paws QB's).... Where is our starting LT?.......... On the IR...

'nuff said....

real
12-07-2006, 11:23 AM
No way is the LT more important than the QB on any team...anywhere...

Battle Red Flash
12-07-2006, 11:23 AM
Manning can get the ball out of his hand with after 1-2 seconds after the snap. Just watch him sometime when the blitz comes. He reads it quickly and the ball is gone. That is why he is not sacked often. He has a superior line but that doesn't matter. If he was behind this line, he would be fine becasue he IS AN NFL QB.

Did you miss last year's Steeler playoff game? He was shut down by the blitz. Started crying to the coach. That's what Carr has seen for over 4 years.

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 11:25 AM
So the media , some board members , Kubiak who says he got 4 games to prove himself we're all simpletons with little football knowledge . You don't have to be a builder to see the house is leaning .

Nashville-Titan
12-07-2006, 11:29 AM
I think he could, but why would he want to?

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 11:46 AM
No way is the LT more important than the QB on any team...anywhere...

Listen to grasshopper my son, and you shall learn something.....

Case:
Orlando Pace > Kurt Warner, Trent Green and Bulger....
Tony Boselli > Mark Brunell

There are other cases that the QB may have gotten the recognition by narrow sited, media and public, similar to the types that Jeffrey describes, but THOSE same QB's would give their lines credit and especially their back side tackles...

But continue to live in your blinded ignorant world if you choose....

Your arguments do nothing but prove this thread correct... So really, I should not be berating you, but Thanking you... So thank you!!!

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 11:48 AM
Gil Brandt on David Carr
Texans QB David Carr gets the NY Times treatment this week as the local team prepares to be hammered by the Giants this Sunday in the Meadowlands. Former Dallas Cowboy personnel director Gil Brandt, who knows a thing or two about evaluating football players, is quoted as making the following observation about Carr:

“I think maybe sometimes a guy doesn’t have the tenacity or is too nice a guy to really play to his capabilities,” Brandt said in a telephone interview. “He’s an enigma to me.”
That is football-speak for questioning whether Carr has the heart and leadership ability to be an above-average quarterback in the NFL. Based on what I saw last Sunday, Brandt is spot on in his observation about Carr. With each passing week, it is becoming clearer than Carr is not going to be as good an NFL quarterback as contemporaries such as the Saints' Drew Brees or the Bengals' Carson Palmer. Indeed, Carr is at a point where he must answer the question of whether he is a better QB than Sage Rosenfels.

Carr's defenders point to his salty NFL quarterback rating, which was 4th in the league going into last week's debacle against the Titans. However, the NFL's QB rating is about as misleading as batting average in baseball in terms of evaluating a player's true effectiveness. QB Score per play -- a far more accurate statistic for evaluating QB play developed by the folks over at the Wages of Wins blog -- reflects that Carr is nowhere near the top level of NFL QB's. When rushing, sacks, and fumbles are considered along with passing stats, then Carr was ranked only as the 19th best QB in the NFL going into the Titans game. Based on his disastrous game against the Titans last Sunday, Carr was ranked dead last in the NFL for the week in QB Score per play.

Just to underscore the misleading nature of the NFL's QB rating, after Carr’s horrific Week Eight effort, he barely dropped in the NFL QB rating -- from 4th to 6th. In comparison, QB Score per play ranks him 23rd among NFL signal-callers, which appears to be much closer to where Texans head coach Gary Kubiak is rating Carr.

I don't think that level of performance is what Bob McNair had in mind when he selected Carr as the Texans' first draft choice in 2002.

Posted by Tom at November 2, 2006 04:03 AM

© 2003 - 2006. Tom Kirkendall. All Rights Reserved.

real
12-07-2006, 12:07 PM
Listen to grasshopper my son, and you shall learn something.....

Case:
Orlando Pace > Kurt Warner, Trent Green and Bulger....
Tony Boselli > Mark Brunell

There are other cases that the QB may have gotten the recognition by narrow sited, media and public, similar to the types that Jeffrey describes, but THOSE same QB's would give their lines credit and especially their back side tackles...

But continue to live in your blinded ignorant world if you choose....

Your arguments do nothing but prove this thread correct... So really, I should not be berating you, but Thanking you... So thank you!!!

:mario3:

kfranco_utexas
12-07-2006, 12:07 PM
I bet you that VY could play behind the Texans O-line and actually make them look decent. :cowboy1:

infantrycak
12-07-2006, 12:08 PM
Had a wild hair and decided to try to quantify Carr's fumbling in comparison to other QB's.

Fumbles as a percentage of sacks:

Brees--29%
Peyton--26.8
Kitna--36.5
Bulger--15.3
Palmer--22.9
Brady--32.5
Favre--32.9
Big Ben--10
McNabb--22.3
Eli--32.8
Delhomme--41
McNair--37.4
Carr--27.3

Average--28.2

Doesn't make the fumbling any better but for perspective.

Oh and Gil Brandt should not be attacked as a loser.

infantrycak
12-07-2006, 12:09 PM
I bet you that VY could play behind the Texans O-line and actually make them look descent. :cowboy1:

Unfortunately when the Texans OL is on the field descent is almost inevitable.

real
12-07-2006, 12:10 PM
Texan Bill....

If you want to believe that the LT is the most important position on offense I totally understand your POV....

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 12:45 PM
Texan Bill....

If you want to believe that the LT is the most important position on offense I totally understand your POV....

Having been an O-lineman, I am partial, but there is validity to that argument.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2006, 01:10 PM
Having been an O-lineman, I am partial, but there is validity to that argument.

Interesting dynamic with trying to state the LT is the most important player on the offense. My perception is that the primary job for the LT is to protect the QB or the other position that is widely argued as the most important player on the team. If you are arguing the most important job of the field is to protect the QB, then it seems that you still arging for the importance of the QB position.

BTW, I am sure that I just violated one of Aristotle's 256 syllogisms.

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2006, 01:22 PM
The general premise of the thread is flawed. It starts to sound like there is no real difference in the quality of QBs, but only in the quality of surrounding casts. While there is truth to the idea that in general a QB can't be successful w/o decent OLs etc., overselling the point does not work. It is doubtful that with changing Manning for Carr alone would make the current Texans have the best record in the AFC and Superbowl contender, but I suspect that we would at least be in the conversasion for a low end playoff spot. I also a believer in the butterfly effect or that because the Texans have a Peyton @ QB, the corresponding FA moves and draft picks would have been different than the ones made.

Runner
12-07-2006, 01:28 PM
Texan Bill....

If you want to believe that the LT is the most important position on offense I totally understand your POV....

Importance has many meanings of course. It might be said that LT is the hardest position to fill.

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 01:29 PM
Interesting dynamic with trying to state the LT is the most important player on the offense. My perception is that the primary job for the LT is to protect the QB or the other position that is widely argued as the most important player on the team. If you are arguing the most important job of the field is to protect the QB, then it seems that you still arging for the importance of the QB position.

BTW, I am sure that I just violated one of Aristotle's 256 syllogisms.

LOL... After I took an excedrin, I think I figured out what you are asking. I do not downplay the importance of a quarterback at all. What I am saying is that it is a chain affect. If the LT (assuming a right-handed QB) does not do his job, the QB will not be able to do his job at full capacity because he will be sacked hurried or pressured.(well until the day we grow eyes in that backs of our heads)... That is the reason the Texans pursued Orlando Pace a season or two ago... A dominant Left tackle can help anyone from a mediocre QB, to a superstar QB. Of course its not that cut and dry or black and white. In the case of the Colts, certainly Peyton is more coveted. However, if Tarik Glenn gets injured or leaves, the colts will not just plug anyone in there to watch Peyton's back side..

Thats all.

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 01:31 PM
The general premise of the thread is flawed. It starts to sound like there is no real difference in the quality of QBs, but only in the quality of surrounding casts. While there is truth to the idea that in general a QB can't be successful w/o decent OLs etc., overselling the point does not work. It is doubtful that with changing Manning for Carr alone would make the current Texans have the best record in the AFC and Superbowl contender, but I suspect that we would at least be in the conversasion for a low end playoff spot. I also a believer in the butterfly effect or that because the Texans have a Peyton @ QB, the corresponding FA moves and draft picks would have been different than the ones made.

Now that I agree with!! But then again, its been like that all season long.

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 01:32 PM
Importance has many meanings of course. It might be said that LT is the hardest position to fill.

I can look at that way too... See, I'm open minded...

Meloy
12-07-2006, 01:35 PM
I bet you that VY could play behind the Texans O-line and actually make them look decent. :cowboy1:
Could not! Could too! Yes. No. Uh huh! Nun huh. Sheesh.:brickwall

Runner
12-07-2006, 01:41 PM
LOL... After I took an excedrin, I think I figured out what you are asking. I do not downplay the importance of a quarterback at all. What I am saying is that it is a chain affect. If the LT (assuming a right-handed QB) does not do his job, the QB will not be able to do his job at full capacity because he will be sacked hurried or pressured.(well until the day we grow eyes in that backs of our heads)... That is the reason the Texans pursued Orlando Pace a season or two ago... A dominant Left tackle can help anyone from a mediocre QB, to a superstar QB. Of course its not that cut and dry or black and white. In the case of the Colts, certainly Peyton is more coveted. However, if Tarik Glenn gets injured or leaves, the colts will not just plug anyone in there to watch Peyton's back side..

Thats all.

Sports Illustrated had an excellent article on the evolution of the left tackle. Here is a link, but you have to sign up for membership.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/preview/siexclusive/2006/pr/subs/siexclusive/09/18/lewis.book0925/index.html?url=http%253A%252F%252Fpremium.si.cnn.c om%252Fpr%252Fsubs2%252Fsiexclusive%252F2006%252Fp r%252Fsubs%252Fsiexclusive%252F09%252F18%252Flewis .book0925%252Findex.html

ArlingtonTexan
12-07-2006, 01:41 PM
LOL... After I took an excedrin, I think I figured out what you are asking. I do not downplay the importance of a quarterback at all. What I am saying is that it is a chain affect. If the LT (assuming a right-handed QB) does not do his job, the QB will not be able to do his job at full capacity because he will be sacked hurried or pressured.(well until the day we grow eyes in that backs of our heads)... That is the reason the Texans pursued Orlando Pace a season or two ago... A dominant Left tackle can help anyone from a mediocre QB, to a superstar QB. Of course its not that cut and dry or black and white. In the case of the Colts, certainly Peyton is more coveted. However, if Tarik Glenn gets injured or leaves, the colts will not just plug anyone in there to watch Peyton's back side..

Thats all.


You got the idea (sorry about the headache) and I agree with the bolded portion in particular. What we want are easy answers, when the relationship is dynamic and situationally dependant.

Meloy
12-07-2006, 01:51 PM
IF Carr is gone, take him completely out of the equation, what is next thing to do? Can Quinn or Smith, if available at our 1st round pick, do the job? Or is there a strong chance they might bust? Who can we trade for & why would anyone give us a QB that could be our starter? Do we pick Quinn or Smith & hope Spencer is the guy for 16 games? We have not done so well in FA at LT so far.. you know the names on that merry go round. Do we take a Kolb or another @ 2nd or 3rd for our guy & pray?

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 01:51 PM
If you had a good LT ... would Carr go through his progressions . Would having time change this or does he just not get it .

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 01:56 PM
IF Carr is gone, take him completely out of the equation, what is next thing to do? Can Quinn or Smith, if available at our 1st round pick, do the job? Or is there a strong chance they might bust? Who can we trade for & why would anyone give us a QB that could be our starter? Do we pick Quinn or Smith & hope Spencer is the guy for 16 games? We have not done so well in FA at LT so far.. you know the names on that merry go round. Do we take a Kolb or another @ 2nd or 3rd for our guy & pray?

If your lost and not sure where your going ... do you keep driving in the same direction ?

I think Kubiak has'nt lost his mind yet , so I would let him pick a QB in the 3rd round ( unless he loves a guy who's there in the 2nd ) to groom behind Sage . What's the worst thing that can happen we win less than 6 games in 2 years .

Bamaborn-Texasbred
12-07-2006, 01:59 PM
If you had a good LT ... would Carr go through his progressions . Would having time change this or does he just not get it .


Carr was given time in the Buffalo game. I was at the stadium. I focused on him most of the game. Except for designed quick slants, he didn't focus on one receiver the whole game. He's good when the line is good. That is my observation and my opinion. Take it or leave it.

Meloy
12-07-2006, 02:00 PM
If your lost and not sure where your going ... do you keep driving in the same direction ?

I think Kubiak has'nt lost his mind yet , so I would let him pick a QB in the 3rd round ( unless he loves a guy who's there in the 2nd ) to groom behind Sage . What's the worst thing that can happen we win less than 6 games in 2 years .Ok, but how does that resolve our problem?

texan's blue
12-07-2006, 02:09 PM
Even if no other QB COULD come in and play any better behind our O-line... I think that as fans, as people who have bought Texans' merchandise, as people who have bought tickets and rooted for Carr through thick and thin or have booed Carr.... I think that after 5 years we deserve to see if <plug in your favorite choice for QB> Peyton Manning could do any better behind our line. I, like so many others, have made excuse after excuse for David Carr. We have looked for any bright spot we could find in his performance or lack of. Unfortunately the bright spots just aren't there... and you can spin that any way you want. You can turn it into Carr, the O-line, AJ, Kubiak whatever. Carr is their spokesman. And we are tired of the **** he is telling us.

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 02:10 PM
Sports Illustrated had an excellent article on the evolution of the left tackle. Here is a link, but you have to sign up for membership.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/preview/siexclusive/2006/pr/subs/siexclusive/09/18/lewis.book0925/index.html?url=http%253A%252F%252Fpremium.si.cnn.c om%252Fpr%252Fsubs2%252Fsiexclusive%252F2006%252Fp r%252Fsubs%252Fsiexclusive%252F09%252F18%252Flewis .book0925%252Findex.html

Is that from a current issue? I will buy SI individually but haven't subscribed since they did not want to do the Commerative Rockets addition.. I'm sure some folks remember that...

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 02:14 PM
You got the idea (sorry about the headache) and I agree with the bolded portion in particular. What we want are easy answers, when the relationship is dynamic and situationally dependant.

Don't worry about the headache. Not your fault. My parents enjoyed the Hippy lifestyle in the early/mid 60's... I am the result of that failed experiment. Anyway, I think we are on the same page.

CaptainPatriot
12-07-2006, 02:14 PM
IF Carr is gone, take him completely out of the equation, what is next thing to do? Can Quinn or Smith, if available at our 1st round pick, do the job? Or is there a strong chance they might bust? Who can we trade for & why would anyone give us a QB that could be our starter? Do we pick Quinn or Smith & hope Spencer is the guy for 16 games? We have not done so well in FA at LT so far.. you know the names on that merry go round. Do we take a Kolb or another @ 2nd or 3rd for our guy & pray?


Give Sage a chance!

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 02:20 PM
IF Carr is gone, take him completely out of the equation, what is next thing to do? Can Quinn or Smith, if available at our 1st round pick, do the job? Or is there a strong chance they might bust? Who can we trade for & why would anyone give us a QB that could be our starter? Do we pick Quinn or Smith & hope Spencer is the guy for 16 games? We have not done so well in FA at LT so far.. you know the names on that merry go round. Do we take a Kolb or another @ 2nd or 3rd for our guy & pray?

I think the results would be eerily similar to whats happened here the last 5 years if we pick Quinn Or Smith unless until we work on that line. Personally I would like to get Kolb (not a first rounder that the organization would be pressured to start right away a la DC), and develop him over a season or two, work on the O-line AND since he's under contract, allow DC to be the sacrificial lamb while we do those other things.

Getting Spencer back at LT will help because I think he will be a good one.

CaptainPatriot
12-07-2006, 02:24 PM
Had a wild hair and decided to try to quantify Carr's fumbling in comparison to other QB's.

Fumbles as a percentage of sacks:

Brees--29%
Peyton--26.8
Kitna--36.5
Bulger--15.3
Palmer--22.9
Brady--32.5
Favre--32.9
Big Ben--10
McNabb--22.3
Eli--32.8
Delhomme--41
McNair--37.4
Carr--27.3

Average--28.2

Doesn't make the fumbling any better but for perspective.

Oh and Gil Brandt should not be attacked as a loser.

another STAT to make DC lovers feel warm and cosy interesting and all the QB's with a higher % except Eli and Kitna have made it to the playoffs. 4 of them have played in SB's! Are you saying DC should fumble more? idonno:

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 02:29 PM
Meloy , I don't see a problem that will not be solved next spring .

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 02:31 PM
Carr was given time in the Buffalo game. I was at the stadium. I focused on him most of the game. Except for designed quick slants, he didn't focus on one receiver the whole game. He's good when the line is good. That is my observation and my opinion. Take it or leave it.

What happened on the 23rd in a row and what happened on 3rd and 2 yds to go ?

HOU-TEX
12-07-2006, 02:33 PM
Is that from a current issue? I will buy SI individually but haven't subscribed since they did not want to do the Commerative Rockets addition.. I'm sure some folks remember that...

Heck yeah, I remember that. When they finally did the next Championship season, we all booed the crud out of them.

texan's blue
12-07-2006, 02:44 PM
I think the results would be eerily similar to whats happened here the last 5 years if we pick Quinn Or Smith unless until we work on that line. Personally I would like to get Kolb (not a first rounder that the organization would be pressured to start right away a la DC), and develop him over a season or two, work on the O-line AND since he's under contract, allow DC to be the sacrificial lamb while we do those other things.

Getting Spencer back at LT will help because I think he will be a good one.

We absolutely do not need another rookie starter QB. Get a veteran, even somebody who is average at best and on the way out. Somebody with some proven record. At least then we have some record to fall back on and really analyze our offense. EVERYBODY is guessing right now because Carr had no track record in the NFL and we put him behind a shallow, weak O-line. If you want, pick up Quinn or Smith and leave him on the bench for at least 1 season. Should've been done from day 1. We NEED to do it now.

I feel like a broken record.... :tearup: David Carr's contract.

Meloy
12-07-2006, 02:44 PM
Meloy , I don't see a problem that will not be solved next spring .Uh.. that is GREAT!!! Would you please be a little more specific so I too can be relieved?

texan's blue
12-07-2006, 02:48 PM
Uh.. that is GREAT!!! Would you please be a little more specific so I too can be relieved?

:fortune:

Honoring Earl 34
12-07-2006, 02:50 PM
I think we're a better team with Sage . Is he going to be your QB in 3 years who knows thats why you pick up someone to groom .

If theres a different QB ... I bet it will renew hope in 70% of the fans .

run-david-run
12-07-2006, 02:57 PM
Yeah, the Colts were fools to take Manning first overall.

on the thread in general...

Upgrade the talent at QB and you have a....more talented QB! Manning helps his line out by not putting them in bad positions constantly. He is a part of why that offense runs well. Manning came to a rotten Colts team too...but it didn't stay rotten forever like ours. If it doesn't matter what the talent is at QB you should just pay some guy 1mil a year to manage games...but it matters who is standing behind center. If it didn't teams wouldn't be drafting guys like Cutler to replace guys like Plummer.

The way the Colts and the Texans addresed their draft needs is a pretty similar. Both went with QB's 1st overall and both got great receivers in the first round next year. The differance? We never got our Tarik Glenn (drafted in the first round), someone to build your O-line around and protect the quarterback. We have Ephiram Salamm playing LT.

infantrycak
12-07-2006, 02:57 PM
another STAT to make DC lovers feel warm and cosy interesting and all the QB's with a higher % except Eli and Kitna have made it to the playoffs. 4 of them have played in SB's!

That is most of the QB's with more passing yards than Carr this year so most of them with both lower and higher fumbling rates have been to the playoffs. Thanks for playing though.

Are you saying DC should fumble more? idonno:

Rather obviously not. It was for perspective on whether Carr has a harder time holding onto the ball than other QB's.

Runner
12-07-2006, 02:58 PM
Is that from a current issue? I will buy SI individually but haven't subscribed since they did not want to do the Commerative Rockets addition.. I'm sure some folks remember that...

No. It was at least a couple of months ago.

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 03:02 PM
No. It was at least a couple of months ago.

Okay... Thanks! I will borrow it from one of my "sucker" friends that still subscribe.

Vinny
12-07-2006, 03:02 PM
The way the Colts and the Texans addresed their draft needs is a pretty similar. Both went with QB's 1st overall and both got great receivers in the first round next year. The differance? We never got our Tarik Glenn (drafted in the first round), someone to build your O-line around and protect the quarterback. We have Ephiram Salamm playing LT.
If you think the difference in the Colts and Texans offense is Tarik Glenn, I have a bridge or two to sell you. Perhaps a time share in lower Florida.

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 03:09 PM
If you think the difference in the Colts and Texans offense is Tarik Glenn, I have a bridge or two to sell you. Perhaps a time share in lower Florida.

LOL.... But we will never know either, because we have never done anything to address that position or any other on the line with any zeal or conviction.

I really wish we would have done what the Oilers had done in the 80's and into the 90's and that was stock-piling offensive lineman.... From Dean Steinkuhler, Bruce, Mike, etc. through Jon Runyan and Brad Hopkins. Runyan could't get a sniff of playing time here in Houston and didn't really get playing time until Tennessee. I heard the other night during the Eagles game that he was starting his 150th (or so) game in a row...

Vinny
12-07-2006, 03:14 PM
Runyon was a 4th round pick and didn't start his rookie year but matured into a solid starter for the Oilers/Titans in year 2.

Texan_Bill
12-07-2006, 03:18 PM
Runyon was a 4th round pick and didn't start his rookie year but matured into a solid starter for the Oilers/Titans in year 2.

I didn't realize he was a 4th rounder, but look who he had playing in front of him at first and next to him. Didn't Brad Hopkins get thrust into LT as a rookie?

Vinny
12-07-2006, 03:20 PM
I didn't realize he was a 4th rounder, but look who he had playing in front of him at first and next to him. Didn't Brad Hopkins get thrust into LT as a rookie?Hopkins was one of Holovak's favorites. He took some criticism for taking Hopkins in the 13th overall slot since he didn't have ideal measurables...but it turned out to be a great pick. I think he started from day one.

Goldeagle
12-07-2006, 07:12 PM
2 years ago TONY DUNGY SAID PEYTON MANNING WOULD NOT HAVE SUCCESS BEHIND OUR O-LINE!

(On NFL Channel on Sirius radio)

CajunTexanHorn
12-07-2006, 07:14 PM
[QUOTE=Jeffery;525219]
Replacing Carr with a better QB without changing the rest of the team is like putting a $3k stereo aond some spinners on a Pinto. You kinda need a better vehicle first. QUOTE]

Let me stop you. I see what you're getting at, but this analogy and your thoughts about the QB position and Carr are a little off in my opinion. The analogy should go more like this.

Replacing Carr with a better QB without changing the rest of the team is like buying a super-charged V-8 for a Pinto. Sure, it still looks like crap, but atleast you can win some races now.

Let me explain why I think your wrong. A QB touches the ball every single snap. They manage the game. They are the engine. Point is, a QB is always the most important player on a team.

By no means, do I claim to be an expert, and I admit I'm a casual fan, but here are the things I notice when it comes to Carr and his performance over the years.

Poor pocket presence - As mentioned earlier in this thread, Carr is a magnet for pass rushers. I've seen him run directly into the path of the pass rusher WAY too many times. I have a mental image of Carr permanently etched into my brain with a D-end rushing to the outside and Carr continue to back peddle right into it.

Carr seems like he has tunnel vision. When teams blitz up the gut or a D-lineman beats his man, he rarely sees it coming. I think this might explain why Kubiak is trying to force him to get rid of the ball so quickly, often resulting in short dump off passes. I don't think Kubiak trusts Carr to know whether he has time to let a play develop downfield, so he's basically saying "screw it, if you can't recognize a blitz or D-lineman who has beaten his man, I'm going to make you throw short, quick passes."

As was the case last week in Oakland, I think Kubiak went one step further after the Carr fumble return for a TD 2:00 before the half. I think Kubes thought "no way am I going to let you have another chance to ruin this game. We're handing it off the rest of the way." Carr had ample time, as he often does to sense the pressure and get rid of the ball. On a side note, after Oakland punted I knew we were going into our two minute drill. I told my buddy, "$20 says Carr throws an INT for a TD or fumbles it away for a TD." True story.

I think your premise is that the team as a whole (especially the O-line) is not good. I don't think anyone will argue that. All people like me are saying is that a good QB wouldn't continue to make the same mistakes. Of course this is a matter of opinion on which we may disagree on, but I firmly believe Peyton Manning would adjust to the lack of line support, not take unecessary sacks (3rd and 7 instead of 3rd and 15), recognize and beat a lot of the blitzes (forcing teams to blitz less!), and not carry the ball around like its a sack of dog turds and fumble every other time he got hit.

Again, you may disagree, but I think Indy would be horrible if David Carr was there QB. Atleast if they tried to run the same offense. In order for David Carr to be sucessful, he needs a great run game and a great Defense, and have limited responsibilities passing. He'll never succeed as a passer like Peyton in this league. He has way too many bad habits. I don't care who the other 10 guys on the field are. He'll never be able to air it out like Peyton, Marino, or Moon.

Don't pin this all on "he's got the worst O-line." Good QB's make bad O-lines look decent. As has already been mentioned, look at Leinhart and Young this year. Both those O-lines suck and there run games are spotty at best. I don't think Tenn or Ariz will make the play-offs until they fix there O-lines, but atleast those two QB's will lead there teams to victory's despite it in the meantime.

Ok, just to make it clear. I recognize the team as a whole is lacking depth and talent at a lot of key positions. My expectations of the teams W/L record wasn't very big going into this year. I realize even if Peyton were our signal caller, this team might not make it to the play-offs. But I do think we'd be a bubble team fighting for contention. I'd say we'd be atleast 6-6 (probably better than that considering our schedule) if Peyton wore a Texans uni.

Bottom line is, Carr is a below average NFL QB. In time, he may break some of his bad habits, but until then he should be on the bench backing someone up. I know good QB's are hard to come by. We swung and missed with Carr, but the organization keeps making excusses for his sucktitude. It's getting really old though. This is by far the most borring football team I've ever followed and it's mainly because Carr can't make big plays. I don't hate Carr as a person, I hate him a a QB.

I firmly believe Carr has lost this team. I don't think the coaches believe in him and I don't think the players around him believe in him despite what they say infront of reporters. One thing is for sure, he's lost this City and its fanbase.

I'll be at the game Sunday, conflicted as I've ever been over a sporting event. I guess that makes me a bad fan, but hell, it will make me feel better to cheer for the other team (I won't boo the Texans). The way I see it, this organization has refused or has been extremely slow to give the fans what they want (draft selections, personel changes, coaching changes, scheme changes, A/C and a closed roof, etc.) It would be one thing if they had the wins to say..."see we know what we're doing." but it's really just been one stubborn arse boneheaded decesion after another. McNair and Co. deserve whats coming this Sunday. Should be interesting.

Kaiser Toro
12-07-2006, 07:35 PM
Yeah, the Colts were fools to take Manning first overall.

Manning is a great player and I have opined that if he won a SB I would call the greatest to ever play the position.

He has about 6 more quality years in him and if he can't get it done at that point it would a 20 year trend. Strip off conventional fan and student of the game wisdom and put on your businessman's hat to ponder that. By investing around that position for that long there are residual effects for overall acquisition and developement of the other 52.

hollywood_texan
12-07-2006, 07:56 PM
This whole discussion about Manning couldn't play with our line is so overblown.

We have issues with the line, but that doesn't mean another QB couldn't be successful with our line.

Besides, it is a lot easier for a QB to make the offensive line's job easier than the other way around.

Also, there are going to be times when a QB is going to get blitzed with very little time to get the ball off. It is going to happen in the NFL. If the QB can't make a defense pay for that scheme, they are going to keep coming.

Also, there are times when Carr has had plenty of time and doesn't get the ball downfield to the open man.

Bottom line, Carr has a problem making defenses pay for their schemes and taking advantage of those opportunities to really go deep.

The line as issues, but probably the quickest improvement to the offense is changing the QB than changing the line. With 32 teams in the league and free agency, you probably are not going to have marquee talent all the way around the offensive line anyway. That is why the QB is so important and is paid so much money.

Vinny
12-07-2006, 09:05 PM
Manning is a great player and I have opined that if he won a SB I would call the greatest to ever play the position.

He has about 6 more quality years in him and if he can't get it done at that point it would a 20 year trend. Strip off conventional fan and student of the game wisdom and put on your businessman's hat to ponder that. By investing around that position for that long there are residual effects for overall acquisition and developement of the other 52.Teams will always take a risk for a franchise QB because those guys take .500 teams and challenge for championships. Panning for gold late in the draft may be a nice fiscal plan, but when your team can't make big plays in a one game winner take all game, you just go home and watch everyone else play. In a playoff format with the best of 7 series your team means more than your superstar, but in a one game winner take all game, I think teams would rather have an elite player pulling the trigger over some guy who can throw safe passes and not fumble the ball. The elite QB guy is pretty rare, that's why they go so high when graded as franchise quality coming out of the draft. I may well be wrong but I think that good quarterbacking is as important as good pitching in baseball. I heard Lance Berkman saying that he would rather they sign a pitcher than sign a big hitter to back him up. I think he knows that you can win some games with average pitching but teams that roll out mediocre pitching are the teams that eventually dissapoint.