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View Full Version : Too quick to think that changing QBs will improve things


keyser
12-03-2006, 01:39 AM
I found this SI.com article, about being too quick to judge young QBs, pretty interesting:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/michael_silver/11/30/qbs/index.html

The author points out how quick people are to judge a young QB as "great". I think a lot of the same thing happens when people look to "upgrade" QBs: it's easy to say you can get someone better than what you have, but it's a lot harder to actually get that person. It becomes easy to project an unproven player as "great", when often they'll turn out not to be, in the long run. [It's interesting to note, though, that the author of that article above felt that the Texans should have drafted Vince Young this past year.]

I'll admit - I'm a new fan of the Texans, so I haven't had the level of frustration that lots of you seem to have had with Carr's performance, or with the team's performance that then reflects on Carr. But, it seems to me that he's a solid QB, better than almost anyone else we'd be able to get, and he's far from being the primary reason this team has been losing. And, it doesn't appear to me that he's lost the confidence of his coaches or teammates.

If we're in position to draft a good QB prospect, I'm fine with that. But, I wouldn't be too quick to toss Carr. A new draftee could just as easily turn out to be a Ryan Leaf as a Peyton Manning. And the most likely case might be that he becomes a solid, if somewhat average, starting QB - i.e. about what Carr already is. Swapping QBs would cause us to go through a bunch of upheaval, when the end result isn't likely to be much different, and if it is different, it would be about as likely to be worse as to be better. If we draft a new QB, at least let them sit behind Carr long enough to let the coaches get a good evaluation. If Carr starts losing the confidence of his teammates and/or coaches, that's a little different. But, I don't know that any of us are going to be in a good position to judge this (until it becomes really bad, and quotes start appearing in the papers...).

I know this was about QB, but I think the same thing holds for kickers, also. It's easy to say that the one you have is no good, but it's usually really tough to find one that's clearly better.

HJam72
12-03-2006, 03:49 AM
It's also hard to improve a team if you spend very high draft picks and they can't make a positive difference over what you already had. Not saying Carr can't be improved upon, but I'd still feel more comfortable spending picks on DBs and O-linemen, since we still undoubtedly suck in those areas. Carr, however, is hard to know what to think of.

bigbrewster2000
12-03-2006, 08:34 AM
I found this SI.com article, about being too quick to judge young QBs, pretty interesting:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/michael_silver/11/30/qbs/index.html

The author points out how quick people are to judge a young QB as "great". I think a lot of the same thing happens when people look to "upgrade" QBs: it's easy to say you can get someone better than what you have, but it's a lot harder to actually get that person. It becomes easy to project an unproven player as "great", when often they'll turn out not to be, in the long run. [It's interesting to note, though, that the author of that article above felt that the Texans should have drafted Vince Young this past year.]

I'll admit - I'm a new fan of the Texans, so I haven't had the level of frustration that lots of you seem to have had with Carr's performance, or with the team's performance that then reflects on Carr. But, it seems to me that he's a solid QB, better than almost anyone else we'd be able to get, and he's far from being the primary reason this team has been losing. And, it doesn't appear to me that he's lost the confidence of his coaches or teammates.

If we're in position to draft a good QB prospect, I'm fine with that. But, I wouldn't be too quick to toss Carr. A new draftee could just as easily turn out to be a Ryan Leaf as a Peyton Manning. And the most likely case might be that he becomes a solid, if somewhat average, starting QB - i.e. about what Carr already is. Swapping QBs would cause us to go through a bunch of upheaval, when the end result isn't likely to be much different, and if it is different, it would be about as likely to be worse as to be better. If we draft a new QB, at least let them sit behind Carr long enough to let the coaches get a good evaluation. If Carr starts losing the confidence of his teammates and/or coaches, that's a little different. But, I don't know that any of us are going to be in a good position to judge this (until it becomes really bad, and quotes start appearing in the papers...).

I know this was about QB, but I think the same thing holds for kickers, also. It's easy to say that the one you have is no good, but it's usually really tough to find one that's clearly better.
Where in that article does it say the Texans should have taken Vince Young? If anything he is saying that VY will be ready for a fall just like all the other youngsters do. The Texans are not even mentioned in the article. However that is a nice read.

sakebomb
12-03-2006, 08:40 AM
Carr shouldn't be considered a young QB anymore.

the wonger need food
12-03-2006, 11:52 AM
Carr shouldn't be considered a young QB anymore.

Exactly. After 5 years we've seen all there is to see from our franchise QB. It's time to move on.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
12-03-2006, 12:35 PM
Exactly. After 5 years we've seen all there is to see from our franchise QB. It's time to move on.

O.K. I'll bite with WHO as QB?

the wonger need food
12-03-2006, 12:43 PM
O.K. I'll bite with WHO as QB?

It doesn't matter at this point. Anyone who might have the ability to lead this team to wins. Something Carr is unable to do. Heck, let's see what Quinton Porter has to offer. It's not like he's going to lose more games than Carr.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
12-03-2006, 12:51 PM
It doesn't matter at this point. Anyone who might have the ability to lead this team to wins. Something Carr is unable to do. Heck, let's see what Quinton Porter has to offer. It's not like he's going to lose more games than Carr.

Damm Wonger you got me on this one I did'nt even know we had this kid on our PT had to go look him up.
Now honstly don't you think he's on the PT for a reason?

eriadoc
12-03-2006, 12:56 PM
We have a few posters here who like to blame Carr for every woe the team has endured. The reality of the matter is that Carr is a middle-of-the-pack QB .... on a BAD team. Theoretically, we could get better (easier said than done), but we also do worse. Fix the foundation of the team first, then worry about QB.

the wonger need food
12-03-2006, 01:00 PM
Damm Wonger you got me on this one I did'nt even know we had this kid on our PT had to go look him up.
Now honstly don't you think he's on the PT for a reason?

I know we're stuck with Carr this year and that he's being evaluated, etc. My point is that we've seen all we need to see from Carr in 5 years and it's time for a change.

It would be best for the organization to try and move him this offseason while there's somewhat of a perception out there that he's being productive. Try to pick a quality veteran to fill in and mentor a draft pick for the 2008 season.

the wonger need food
12-03-2006, 01:03 PM
We have a few posters here who like to blame Carr for every woe the team has endured. The reality of the matter is that Carr is a middle-of-the-pack QB .... on a BAD team. Theoretically, we could get better (easier said than done), but we also do worse. Fix the foundation of the team first, then worry about QB.

I'm not blaming Carr soley, but he certainly has contributed to the losses. If he's a middle-of-the-pack QB why not get rid of him and try to find someone that can lead this team to wins?

BTW... QB is not only part of the foundation, it is a cornerstone.

Specnatz
12-03-2006, 01:38 PM
Exactly. After 5 years we've seen all there is to see from our franchise QB. It's time to move on.

What have we seen from Carr ? His ability to get sacked, and ability not to be able to throw the ball down the field with 2 guys on top of him. The ability for the receivers to continuely drop passes. Defenders to not even pay attention to the running game because there isn't one.

My whole problem when people say we have seen all there is to see of Carr is that, I am not sure what we have seen out of any player on the team, offensively that is. We have not seen how good AJ can be and do we critique the runningbacks because of the line or do we critize Carr for the lack of running game. Do we say how terrible the DBs are even though there is no passrush?

These are the questions I have and most of the Carr haters can't answer them. Oh and saying almost any QB will do butt Carr is the least intelligent thing I have ever seen being thought and said about the QB position.

the wonger need food
12-03-2006, 01:58 PM
What have we seen from Carr ? His ability to get sacked, and ability not to be able to throw the ball down the field with 2 guys on top of him. The ability for the receivers to continuely drop passes. Defenders to not even pay attention to the running game because there isn't one.

My whole problem when people say we have seen all there is to see of Carr is that, I am not sure what we have seen out of any player on the team, offensively that is. We have not seen how good AJ can be and do we critique the runningbacks because of the line or do we critize Carr for the lack of running game. Do we say how terrible the DBs are even though there is no passrush?

These are the questions I have and most of the Carr haters can't answer them. Oh and saying almost any QB will do butt Carr is the least intelligent thing I have ever seen being thought and said about the QB position.

Same old tired excuses. It's the lines fault Carr can't make a play. It's the coaches fault Carr can't throw a football down the middle of the field. It's the cover 2's fault that Carr can't get his team into the end zone. It's WR's fault that Carr has zero pocket presence. We're gonna have to eventually recognize the fact that Carr is not a good NFL QB based on him. Unfortunately we'll have to live through 2 more seasons of excuses.

Actually, we've seen how good AJ and Domanick Davis can be. We've even seen it from Owen Daniels. They have made plays for this team. Something Carr has never done and apparantly does not have the ability to do unless it's against 2nd string and prevent defenses.

Hulk75
12-03-2006, 02:01 PM
Exactly. After 5 years we've seen all there is to see from our franchise QB. It's time to move on.

Okay lets move on............right now lets go. O wait we have a game today.

FanZilla
12-03-2006, 02:09 PM
What have we seen from Carr ? His ability to get sacked, and ability not to be able to throw the ball down the field with 2 guys on top of him. The ability for the receivers to continuely drop passes. Defenders to not even pay attention to the running game because there isn't one.

My whole problem when people say we have seen all there is to see of Carr is that, I am not sure what we have seen out of any player on the team, offensively that is. We have not seen how good AJ can be and do we critique the runningbacks because of the line or do we critize Carr for the lack of running game. Do we say how terrible the DBs are even though there is no passrush?

These are the questions I have and most of the Carr haters can't answer them. Oh and saying almost any QB will do butt Carr is the least intelligent thing I have ever seen being thought and said about the QB position.

"These are the questions I have and most of the Carr haters can't answer them."

Most? So your questions did atleast get an answer. Correct?

the wonger need food
12-03-2006, 02:11 PM
Okay lets move on............right now lets go. O wait we have a game today.

Oh boy... I'm really looking forward to another mediocre performance against another cruddy team in another meaningless game!!! And there's not even the hope of seeing our backup QB come in show us what an actual NFL QB would look like in this offense. Oh well...

TexansLucky13
12-03-2006, 02:19 PM
Oh boy... I'm really looking forward to another mediocre performance against another cruddy team in another meaningless game!!! And there's not even the hope of seeing our backup QB come in show us what an actual NFL QB would look like in this offense. Oh well...

Eh... I'm sure we can all sympathize with your lack of enthusiasm about the Texans right now, but I am just not ready to throw David under the bus for it. IMO the "dinks and dunks" everyone complains about has a lot more to do with Kubiak's gameplan rather than David Carr's abilities.....

On another note, though, I was pleased with Porter when I saw him in Training Camp and the Pre-Season, and I wouldn't be scared to death if he had to take the snap.

Either way.... :texflag:

keyser
12-03-2006, 02:27 PM
Where in that article does it say the Texans should have taken Vince Young? If anything he is saying that VY will be ready for a fall just like all the other youngsters do. The Texans are not even mentioned in the article. However that is a nice read.

It's his reply to the last question on page 3 (links to an earlier article). It seems kind of inconsistent to me, also, considering what he wrote in this newer article, but he had several reasons why he thought VY would have been a good choice for Houston (e.g. that Vince was from Houston, and would help give the franchise more of a "face").

the wonger need food
12-03-2006, 02:28 PM
IMO the "dinks and dunks" everyone complains about has a lot more to do with Kubiak's gameplan rather than David Carr's abilities.....

Last year the short pass was definitlely part of Palmer/Pendry's offense for Dinkin' Dave. This year, I'm not so sure. I go to the games and see WR's running downfield. Maybe they're not wide open, but there is definitely the opportunity to put the football in a place for the receivers to make a play. The problem is that Carr is afraid to try and make a play and chooses to dump the ball off. If it's not a a jump ball down the sidelines, a quick slant or a dump off to someone underneath you're not going to see it from our franchise QB.

The really sad part of our QB situation is sitting here watching the Titans hang with the Colts because of Vince Young. Young has already made more plays for his team in 7 games than Carr has for his in over 50.

Hulk75
12-03-2006, 02:31 PM
Oh boy... I'm really looking forward to another mediocre performance against another cruddy team in another meaningless game!!! And there's not even the hope of seeing our backup QB come in show us what an actual NFL QB would look like in this offense. Oh well...

I know too bad, dont worry Carr is so bad he will not be here next year, that is if Kubiak knows what he is doing.

TexansLucky13
12-03-2006, 02:33 PM
Last year the short pass was definitlely part of Palmer/Pendry's offense for Dinkin' Dave. This year, I'm not so sure. I go to the games and see WR's running downfield. Maybe they're not wide open, but there is definitely the opportunity to put the football in a place for the receivers to make a play. The problem is that Carr is afraid to try and make a play and chooese to dump the ball off. If it's not a a jump ball down the sidelines, a quick slant or a dump off to someone underneath you're not going to see it from our franchise QB.

The really sad part of our QB situation is sitting here watching the Titans hang with the Colts because of Vince Young. Young has already made more plays for his team in 7 games than Carr has for his in over 50.

I can completely agree with a portion of your argument here. David definitely wears the last four seasons when he walks out onto that field. IMO he has improved very much, but is still carrying some of those bad tendencies from the Old Regime. A couple of times this season I have seen Owen Daniels wide open in the midfield, but David dinks it to AJ instead. I do not like that, and I know Kubiak is beating him over the head about it. At least I hope he is.

As far as VY goes.... oh well. We didn't draft him or Reggie. We have Mario, who I think was a huge asset and will be a lock on DE for the next half decade at very least. Vince is doing some good things in Tennessee but I don't know how well ANYONE would have done in Houston at QB, or RB for that matter.

Ckw
12-03-2006, 03:13 PM
SSDD. Another day, another Carr thread. Well here's all I have to say.
First who exactly are the good-great QBs in this league? I don't mean the guys that have high ratings on Madden. I'm talking about the guys that lead their teams to victory. So let's see: we've got Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb depending on the day, possibly Carson Palmer but only time will tell, and maybe someday even Tony Romo but you can't base his elite status off of one season. Some other possible entries could be Marc Bulger but then again he does have Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce to throw to, and I guess you could make a case for Drew Brees.
Now let's look at the average QBs in the league: Chad Pennington, Steve McNair, Trent Green, Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger who we've all seen cave on a team missing a stud running back named Jerome Bettis, Matt Hasselbeck, Brett Favre, maybe Rex Grossman, Byron Leftwich, Jake Delhomme, perhaps J.P. Losman, Brad Johnson, and oh by the way David Carr.
Now let's count them. That's 7 elite NFL QBs, including some guys that maybe shouldn't be considered elite. As far as the average to below-average QBs go there are 13 and more could definitely be added to the list. I didn't even mention Matt Leinart, Jake Plummer/Jay Cutler, Alex Smith, Jon Kitna, Charlie Frye, Joey Harrington.... I could go on but won't.
Next let's look at past Super Bowl winning QBs. Ben Roethlisberger, average QB, Tom Brady, my generation's Joe Montana, Tom Brady again, Brad Johnson, Tom Brady again, but we all know he wouldn't be listed three times without that stud defense and a guy name Bill Belichick, Trent Dilfer, below-average QB, Kurt Warner, average QB with a few elite seasons and also had Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, and Marshall Faulk, John Elway twice, but couldn't win until Terrell Davis and the defense came around. I'm tired of looking all this up and I haven't even mentioned the losing team's QBs. And don't tell me it's because the losing team's QB was worse than the winning team's QB. It was a team effort and the best team won.
Look, just get off Carr's back. He's already got a big a** monkey on it so the last thing he needs is all of us Texans fans jumping all over him too. He is what he is: an average QB who just doesn't know how to win. Maybe he will never learn how to win, or maybe he's just dealt with losing for so long he has become numb to it. Maybe he has lost that fire. Maybe Kubiak can bring the fire back into him, but that's his job. It's Kubiak's decision, and I trust he will do what is best for the team. Carr will never be the most vocal leader on the team. But I'd like to think he tries to do it with his actions. Has everyone forgotten, I can't remember which game, but the one where David went diving head first into the end zone and all his teammates afterwards said he had earned their respect? We all know this team has a ton of holes. Let's try to fill those holes before we start trying to give our average QB the boot. There have been much worse QBs lead their teams to the promised land and David is one average QB among many. Sadly there just aren't enough Tom Bradys and Peyton Mannings to go around. But I'll settle for a Carr. At least for now.

abbest
12-03-2006, 05:27 PM
SSDD. Another day, another Carr thread. Well here's all I have to say.
First who exactly are the good-great QBs in this league? I don't mean the guys that have high ratings on Madden. I'm talking about the guys that lead their teams to victory. So let's see: we've got Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Donovan McNabb depending on the day, possibly Carson Palmer but only time will tell, and maybe someday even Tony Romo but you can't base his elite status off of one season. Some other possible entries could be Marc Bulger but then again he does have Torry Holt and Isaac Bruce to throw to, and I guess you could make a case for Drew Brees.
Now let's look at the average QBs in the league: Chad Pennington, Steve McNair, Trent Green, Michael Vick, Ben Roethlisberger who we've all seen cave on a team missing a stud running back named Jerome Bettis, Matt Hasselbeck, Brett Favre, maybe Rex Grossman, Byron Leftwich, Jake Delhomme, perhaps J.P. Losman, Brad Johnson, and oh by the way David Carr.
Now let's count them. That's 7 elite NFL QBs, including some guys that maybe shouldn't be considered elite. As far as the average to below-average QBs go there are 13 and more could definitely be added to the list. I didn't even mention Matt Leinart, Jake Plummer/Jay Cutler, Alex Smith, Jon Kitna, Charlie Frye, Joey Harrington.... I could go on but won't.
Next let's look at past Super Bowl winning QBs. Ben Roethlisberger, average QB, Tom Brady, my generation's Joe Montana, Tom Brady again, Brad Johnson, Tom Brady again, but we all know he wouldn't be listed three times without that stud defense and a guy name Bill Belichick, Trent Dilfer, below-average QB, Kurt Warner, average QB with a few elite seasons and also had Torry Holt, Isaac Bruce, and Marshall Faulk, John Elway twice, but couldn't win until Terrell Davis and the defense came around. I'm tired of looking all this up and I haven't even mentioned the losing team's QBs. And don't tell me it's because the losing team's QB was worse than the winning team's QB. It was a team effort and the best team won.
Look, just get off Carr's back. He's already got a big a** monkey on it so the last thing he needs is all of us Texans fans jumping all over him too. He is what he is: an average QB who just doesn't know how to win. Maybe he will never learn how to win, or maybe he's just dealt with losing for so long he has become numb to it. Maybe he has lost that fire. Maybe Kubiak can bring the fire back into him, but that's his job. It's Kubiak's decision, and I trust he will do what is best for the team. Carr will never be the most vocal leader on the team. But I'd like to think he tries to do it with his actions. Has everyone forgotten, I can't remember which game, but the one where David went diving head first into the end zone and all his teammates afterwards said he had earned their respect? We all know this team has a ton of holes. Let's try to fill those holes before we start trying to give our average QB the boot. There have been much worse QBs lead their teams to the promised land and David is one average QB among many. Sadly there just aren't enough Tom Bradys and Peyton Mannings to go around. But I'll settle for a Carr. At least for now.

Carr has just added another monkey on his back. Young has beaten the Colts in his 2nd try. Carr is 0/9 against the Colts. Wait till next week and hear the reception Young will get when steps onto the field.