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View Full Version : Cover 2 Zone - Why the Texans Can't get Vertical


coachdent
11-28-2006, 06:24 PM
...........................FS..................... .........................SS


...........................W....................M. .....................S

........CB......................DE.......DT.....DT .....DE...............................CB
..................................TE...T...G...C.. .G...T.................................X
.........Z........................................ QB...............

.................................................. .FB

.................................................. .TB


The base Cover 2 with a 4-3 front. The "Tampa 2". The defense that has shut us down. The reason why some have said Carr can't do this and Carr can't do that. The reason that coach Kubiak says we can't get vertical down the field. Let's break this down:

The strengths of the Cover two is that it potentially puts every defender into the run game defense. The two corners offer immediate run forcers cutting off the outside. The two safeties come off the has to support inside out and run the "alleys" (the two zones in between the wideout and the last man on the line of scrimmage). Seven men immediately in the box with three linebackers.

From this offensive set and the Texans' other well used set this defense does pose some major problems in getting the ball downfield.

AJ and Moulds left, tight end right, two backs in the backfield.

We get in this set a lot on third down.

Here are the problems and solutions:

PROBLEMS:

1. The Texans do not have anyone to stretch the field from a talent standpoint. AJ is not a burner and certainly Moulds is not either.

2. Kubiak mentioned a bunch of times about not being able to get down the field because of the running game or lack thereof. What he is really saying is that the vertical passing game for the Texans PRIMARILY comes off of the run game through play action. Those of you with TBO or who tape the games can go back and watch how many times on third and 5+ the Texans run play action. The linebackers don't honor the fake at all because it is bogus. This is a major problem. You have to be able to generate vertical threats through other means than play action. But a further look at the Cover 2 shows just how misplaced the Texan attack is:

If you look at the above set, you can eliminate three players immediately from the vertical game. The fullback, the tailback and the tight end. The Achillies heal of the Cover 2 is the deep middle. With receivers split to the outside on either side, there is no one to threaten the middle of the field. The tight end up the middle is the only option, but this is an extremely simple route to cover with a linebacker running with the tight end. Upfield, thus freeing up the safeties to help with the wideouts.

In addition, when the Cover 2 corner sees his receiver (#1 receiver) go vertical, he is backpedalling and eyeing the second receiver inside. In the above set, the tight end. When they both go vertical, he goes vertical. So the Cover 2 turns into Cover 4 and you aren't getting deep ball shots there. What you are getting is bogus play action and then the QB being told to take a shot and throwing the ball deep to AJ. The safety comes off the hash because there is nothing there to threaten him. The corner is also running with AJ and you have a ball forced. Or... you have Carr checking down and dumping it off into the flat to the fullback or the back out of the backfield. This is his read....EVERY TIME. There is nothing there. There is little variation from it. That is why we keep seeing the dump off. The Eagles do the same thing (dink and dunk)....BUT there is a difference. See later...

When we go to the second set with Moulds and AJ to the same side, the Cover 2 automatically becomes a Cover 4 to that side. The corner will bail and the safety will be responsible for that quarter of the field. You are not getting over the top of that. To the other side, it is completely lights out. The tight end isn't running over the safety to his side, who can now help out on a possible post from the inside receiver to the other side (which rarely happens with us because we don't run it much and secondly, Moulds doesn't have the jets to burn that route over the top). The corner now can come or play games with his outside linebacker and cover the tight end. This now frees the backside linebacker to fire.

3. Scoring is down throughout the NFL, but yardage is up. Especially in the passing game. The tough rules on DBs and not allowing them to put hands on receivers has really opened the door for more open passing attacks. But when you get down into the red zone, teams abandon the Cover 2 and go into man mode. This is where the Texans are hurting because they don't have the athleticism to get open down there.

SOLUTIONS

1. To beat the Cover 2, you must use trips sets and motion. The Texans use very little of each. This requires taking our fullback off the field. :francis: :shoot: :tease: Sorry...this has been a source of frustration for me for quite sometime. Look at the difference for the defense now out of a trips set. Now this is trips with 3 WRs on the field. Not the trips set we use with Brunner, Daniels and AJ. That is what we call a triple set. MUCH different. Triple isn't giving you a deep threat, and it also causes you problems in the run game if you are not physically superior because it brings more big boys into the box.

...........................FS..................... .........................SS



.....................................W............ ....M.....................S

................CB................DE.....DT.....DT .....DE...............................CB
..................................TE...T...G...C.. .G...T.................................Z
.................................................Q B...............H............Y

.................................................. S


This is the common adjustment to trips for Cover 2. Advantage? Definitely Offense! What this set does is moves a linebacker out of the box and into coverage. The Sam (S) must walk out on #2 (Y) to respect the pass. The best run stopper, Mike (M), must now also be a two way player and be aware of Wr #3 (H). The third MAJOR problem with the defense is that you now have your Will linebacker (W) or the weakest linebacker of the bunch in a very strong location. He has a tight end to his side and an uncovered lineman. This is what my team refers to as "insert, thrust... repeat". You wear out that left side with middle zone. The corner sticks his nose into the action and you leak the tight end out into the flat. You run inside zone to the right and the tight end is coming down inside to the Will linebacker and the backside guard and tackle are doubling to no one. Frontside guard and center double EASILY up to the middle linebacker who is removed. It is run game paradise on the backside.

From a passing perspective, you now have lienbackers trying to cover wide receivers. Hundreds of route combos to work out here. My favs:

-Z Curl, Y Out (turn up if not open), H post. The H holds the linebacker off of the curl and the out and up takes the top off of the safety as does the post. The curl is easy pickings. :mario2:

- Post and corner games with two combos of receivers. Crossing and overlapping the routes and getting to the zones. We do NONE of this. Cover 2 does not like trips and does not like overlapping routes. It requires the defense to be very disciplined in their drops.

2. The use of motion gives you advantages at the point of attack and requires the Cover 2 to convert. Most Cover 2 teams will check to Cover 3 or four to the trips side or the motion to trips. If you motion to trips, you get advantages in four ways.

+First, the defense is often slow to rotate and out of position.
+Second, the defense blows a check and somebody misses thier assignment.
+Third, the defender is moving out to the motion and you run a guy under him. Now he has to stop and reverse field instead of covering the route from a standstill. Much more difficult.
+Fourth, it gives you advantages in the run game by forcing the defense to rotate and show their hand.

We do too much standing around and come out in too many vanilla, balanced sets. You have to incorporate more unbalanced sets because you will never beat the Cover 2 attacking it with balanced sets. The only team that can really do that is Indy and they do it because their tight end is more like a wide receiver and Manning has six days to throw.

3. To go vertical, you must develop a vertical passing game without resorting to play action. Play action actually compromises your protection. If a team is blitzing on a play action, the defense essentially is dictating the quick throw right now or it is a sack.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I do not want this to be a Carr or anti-Carr thread. Because my take on Carr is that I have seen him improve and make better decisions. I really can't judge the guy based on some of the things I seen him deal with this season. There is not a quarterback in the NFL who is going to be competent on 3rd and 5 or more when he comes out of the huddle looking at two tight ends, a fullback, a tailback and one wide receiver. It is silly and frustrating to watch.


I will end with this thought... I know a number of offensive coordinators on the college and professional level. It boggles my mind to see the number of plays that they put in their playbooks. When it come right down to it, they do not get to half of them in a game. There is something to be said for simplifying things and running your good stuff. Most pass games in the NFL are on a tags. Meaning, when we run a play at our place we call it
Trips Rt. 90 Curl.
All the receivers know their routes and the QB knows his defender to throw off of. In the NFL, that same call is
Trips Right Montana BOSS Z4 Razor Y Angle S Jet
Same play. You tell me. Can you see where a QB might be in a quandry when trying to decipher where his read lies? Can you see the ridiculous nature of this when you call Trips Right Ohio Dance Z4 Rip Y Stay S Jet?
In this second play, the back is not staying in to block, he is taking the place of the second receiver who is now running his Rip route.

Definitely need to simplify and bring in the third receiver. Kevin Walter is no dud. I would rather see him than Jamel Cook.

real
11-28-2006, 06:29 PM
You should use "......." in your set-ups:

.................SS.......FS...........

.............OLB.....MLB....OLB......

CB......DE....DT.......DT.....DE......CB

Scooter
11-28-2006, 06:31 PM
i admit it, this post brought a tear to my eye. good walkthrough coach.

Texan_Bill
11-28-2006, 06:32 PM
Good post. I will agree with #1. Andre is fast, big and strong, but he is not a speed demon. That's why I think getting Mathis back might help. Kubiak had stated that when Jerome gets back, he will be asked to do more than just return.

*light goes off* Send Mathis deep to stretch the "D"

Honoring Earl 34
11-28-2006, 06:33 PM
1. The Texans do not have anyone to stretch the field from a talent standpoint. AJ is not a burner and certainly Moulds is not either.

Coachdent , AJ came in 2nd in the NFLs fastest man competition . He was also the indoor 60 meter champ at Miami . If thats not a burner what is .

Texan_Bill
11-28-2006, 06:38 PM
1. The Texans do not have anyone to stretch the field from a talent standpoint. AJ is not a burner and certainly Moulds is not either.

Coachdent , AJ came in 2nd in the NFLs fastest man competition . He was also the indoor 60 meter champ at Miami . If thats not a burner what is .

Jerome Mathis (healthy of course).

bah007
11-28-2006, 06:39 PM
1. The Texans do not have anyone to stretch the field from a talent standpoint. AJ is not a burner and certainly Moulds is not either.

Coachdent , AJ came in 2nd in the NFLs fastest man competition . He was also the indoor 60 meter champ at Miami . If thats not a burner what is .

If I remember correctly, it was Mathis who came in second at the NFLs fastest man competition, not AJ.

Mathis lost in the finals to DeAngelo Hall of the Falcons.

Texan_Bill
11-28-2006, 06:40 PM
If I remember correctly, it was Mathis who came in second at the NFLs fastest man competition, not AJ.

Mathis lost in the finals to DeAngelo Hall of the Falcons.

That may be true, but I thought AJ participated the year he went to the Pro-Bowl too.

Honoring Earl 34
11-28-2006, 06:40 PM
They both came in 2nd ... AJ lost to Allen Rossum .

Double Barrel
11-28-2006, 06:43 PM
Great post, coachdent! :thumbup

We need more football talk like this in the forum.

What I don't understand is how Kubiak - an offensive mastermind - is unable to counter this defense. I know we lack talent, but we should still be able to exploit the cover 2's weaknesses. We've had some games that generated the run, but it's been inconsistent. The key for Kubiak is to find the problem to our inability to run the ball week in and week out.

Scooter
11-28-2006, 06:46 PM
both sides are right. aj is a burner, he's just a bigger guy and takes longer than a little guy like deangelo hall or jerome mathis to get up to full speed (he was gaining quickly on rossum after 20 yards). a bomb to aj needs to either be a floating jump ball, or 60 yards down the field.

Runner
11-28-2006, 06:50 PM
Dre is fast enough to go deep and strong enough to break tackles. Mould's looks like he should be ablt to break tackles. We have a couple tight ends that should be ablt to exploit the middle. Why don't they? Maybe the same answer as the trouble with our run blocking.

A lack of belief in the system may be why players appear to quitting. If they didn't get the ball early in the year they may not be putting out max effort right now.


Why did Sage look so amazing on his special teams tackle? Because he was really trying hard - he was all out. We aren't used to seeing that anymore.

Runner
11-28-2006, 06:52 PM
an offensive mastermind = is unable to counter this defense.


Maybe half of this equation is wrong?

Maybe it is the lack of talent available.

Maybe it is the failure to correctly identify and exploit available talent.

Maybe a little of all three.

Honoring Earl 34
11-28-2006, 06:55 PM
I thought we brought in Putz a TE for this but then Daniels beats him out so I assume he's a good athelete .

If this talent issue is the case ... then we have no talent at the skills positions because I've never seen so many dinks in my life .

Double Barrel
11-28-2006, 06:58 PM
Maybe half of this equation is wrong?

Maybe it is the lack of talent available.

Maybe it is the failure to correctly identify and exploit available talent.

Maybe a little of all three.

yep, probably so.

I hate "looking forward to next season" when we've still got 5 games in this season. I hate it, I hate it, I hate it!!

But that's all we've got. Stick a fork in this season, it's done. Hope we can pull a win (or two) out of our remaining games, but I'm not sure how that changes anything other than our draft order. [/cynical]

Honoring Earl 34
11-28-2006, 07:01 PM
I think Sage told Flanigan ... Hey you step on my thumb and I'll kick you in the ribs .

bah007
11-28-2006, 07:03 PM
The easiest way to beat the cover 2 defense:

Run the ball up the middle effectively & the LBs will respect play action which opens up the middle of the field for the TE & post routes for the WRs.

If you can do that then you can beat it. The problem is that we cant run up the middle very well & neither Carr or the RBs try very hard to sell play action anyway.

I like Carr & I think he is improving but watch him on play action. He doesnt even try to sell it. The only time he did was in the Miami game and the result was he went in untouched on the bootleg TD run.

ArlingtonTexan
11-28-2006, 07:05 PM
Over the past couple of years we have had several guys who claimed to be coaches who spent a great deal of time telling many of us that we don't understand stuff, but never bothered to give a detailed explanation of some technical side of football. This is excellent posting.


On a more general note, while the Broncos have been more successful than the Texans in getting deep, i pretty sure that I heard a similiar criticism of thier offense a couple of games ago.

Also, I am thinking that Kubiak does not trust his personnel to perform the tasks you described in detail. At least, that is what I hope. If not we have a coach who is very conservative and the Texans will be left to winning only by superior execution (insert your own Capers joke).

coachdent
11-28-2006, 07:10 PM
The NFL is a fickle world. Today's offensive and defensive genuises are tomorrow's bums and *****s.

Brian Billick was the offensive genuis in Minnesota than suppossedly couldn't coach an offense in Baltimore.

Jim Johnson in Philadelphia orchestrated the highly feared Eagles defense and this year they are pathetic.

I don't think anyone really regarded Kubiak as some genius. I don't think he is a complete waste of time either. I think he needs to use his personnel better and stay truer to the concepts of the zone run game that I referred to in another post.

He also needs to stop putting the quarterback in situations where you are telling him to quote, "just make a play". Carr had a major setback to his growth with Cris Palmer. One of things that Palmer preached was just that. Give AJ a chance to make a play. We threw the hell out of the fade. When coaches are in a bind and they don't know what to do, they tend to just say, "run three verts" or "throw the fade and see what happens". AJ is talented enough to make great plays, but these are high percentage plays. More germaine to the point, we throw the SAME deep balls game after game.

Carr's mentality has been molded to throw and force that ball into AJ and he reverts back to that from time to time. Less and less I am happy to say, but it still happens. As a coordinator, you know your man's weakness and you just don't give him that option by not calling the route!

Texan_Bill
11-28-2006, 07:12 PM
The easiest way to beat the cover 2 defense:

Run the ball up the middle effectively & the LBs will respect play action which opens up the middle of the field for the TE & post routes for the WRs.

If you can do that then you can beat it. The problem is that we cant run up the middle very well & neither Carr or the RBs try very hard to sell play action anyway.

I like Carr & I think he is improving but watch him on play action. He doesnt even try to sell it. The only time he did was in the Miami game and the result was he went in untouched on the bootleg TD run.

Run the ball effectively which will get the LB's attention? Absurd. I tried to suggest that the other day and the 'experts' let me know how wrong I was.

I saw a weak sell on the play action late in the game last Sunday, when it was like... "ummmm I don't think anyone is biting on the play action, when a) we couldn't run the ball all day and b) the clock is running out..."

Kaiser Toro
11-28-2006, 07:12 PM
As the offense does not improve as a unit year over year there are three things that come to mind when thinking out loud:
- We just do not have talent no matter the coaches or philosophy.
- Our Offensive staff does not know how to transfer their knowledge. It is a young staff short on experience except for the two heavies at HC and OC.
- Kubiak needs to take ownership of his strength, offense. Much like Capers was a whiz in the 3-4, we never saw it.

No science here, just thinking out loud.

Another strong post coachdent, thanks.

dat_boy_yec
11-28-2006, 07:13 PM
I disagree that you can't beat it with a balanced set. If you have a TE go to the linebackers level and run a slant from there that will force a safety to account for him leaving the WR out there one on one with the CB if not then the TE has a good angle to make the catch and pick up decent yardage. Really this makes both safety stay in a little bit becaus the TE would be in the middle of the field by then. There are plenty of ways to beat the cover 2 deep, but like you said it's frustrating to not see our coaching staff doing this.

Texan_Bill
11-28-2006, 07:13 PM
The NFL is a fickle world. Today's offensive and defensive genuises are tomorrow's bums and *****s.

Brian Billick was the offensive genuis in Minnesota than suppossedly couldn't coach an offense in Baltimore.

Jim Johnson in Philadelphia orchestrated the highly feared Eagles defense and this year they are pathetic.

I don't think anyone really regarded Kubiak as some genius. I don't think he is a complete waste of time either. I think he needs to use his personnel better and stay truer to the concepts of the zone run game that I referred to in another post.

He also needs to stop putting the quarterback in situations where you are telling him to quote, "just make a play". Carr had a major setback to his growth with Cris Palmer. One of things that Palmer preached was just that. Give AJ a chance to make a play. We threw the hell out of the fade. When coaches are in a bind and they don't know what to do, they tend to just say, "run three verts" or "throw the fade and see what happens". AJ is talented enough to make great plays, but these are high percentage plays. More germaine to the point, we throw the SAME deep balls game after game.

Carr's mentality has been molded to throw and force that ball into AJ and he reverts back to that from time to time. Less and less I am happy to say, but it still happens. As a coordinator, you know your man's weakness and you just don't give him that option by not calling the route!

Another excellent post!

coachdent
11-28-2006, 07:15 PM
The easiest way to beat the cover 2 defense:

Run the ball up the middle effectively & the LBs will respect play action which opens up the middle of the field for the TE & post routes for the WRs.

If you can do that then you can beat it. The problem is that we cant run up the middle very well & neither Carr or the RBs try very hard to sell play action anyway.

I like Carr & I think he is improving but watch him on play action. He doesnt even try to sell it. The only time he did was in the Miami game and the result was he went in untouched on the bootleg TD run.

As I mentioned in the post, a lot of our "play action" occurs on third and long. This is bogus play action. This sells nothing. You can give the best run fake in the world, and you are not going to bring the safety up selling that run when it is third and 12!

The other reason while some of Carr's play actions are "bad" is because when the quarterback sees a blitzer coming off the backside or off of the outside, he is going to be unblocked. You don't sell the fake at all here. That man is responsible for you and you alone. You dismiss the fake and get rid of the ball to your first underneath read. At my place, I tell my quarterback if he sees the blitzer or the unblocked man and problems with the protection, then he employs a technique that we refer to as "FTF". The clean way to refer to this is "Forget the Fake". However, I think that one can understand the more colorful verbage we use in the closed door sessions that underscores the urgency needed by the QB to get rid of the football!:ok:

Runner
11-28-2006, 07:21 PM
Run the ball effectively which will get the LB's attention? Absurd. I tried to suggest that the other day and the 'experts' let me know how wrong I was.

I saw a weak sell on the play action late in the game last Sunday...

There was that one fake where he sold it so well the running back knocked the ball out of his hand for a fumble.

coachdent
11-28-2006, 07:23 PM
I disagree that you can't beat it with a balanced set. If you have a TE go to the linebackers level and run a slant from there that will force a safety to account for him leaving the WR out there one on one with the CB if not then the TE has a good angle to make the catch and pick up decent yardage. Really this makes both safety stay in a little bit becaus the TE would be in the middle of the field by then. There are plenty of ways to beat the cover 2 deep, but like you said it's frustrating to not see our coaching staff doing this.


There was a play in the Jets game that showed this exact route that you speak of. The route is NOT covered by the safety. Safeties do not cover the tight end. The middle linebacker and the outside linebacker to that side combo this route and pass him off to each other. The safety stays high and is there to help the wide receiver.

No safeties jump tight ends in the NFL except when they are playing Gates or Santiago or Dallas Clark (who is a quasi tight end).

Now if that is a wide receiver in that slot, then I am with you. NOW the safeties must honor that speed up the middle. When we go five wides, this is a definite dilemma for the Cover 2. When we go four wides, (yeah, that has happened...never) this is also a difficult situation from the balanced set. It is better from trips though.

Show me a safety focusing his attention on helping out on a tight end route and I'll show you Jason Simmons watching Lee Evans take it to the house for two home runs!:crying:

coachdent
11-28-2006, 07:25 PM
There was that one fake where he sold it so well the running back knocked the ball out of his hand for a fumble.

Carr should have held onto the ball better, but the fault there mainly rests with the running back for clamping down on the fake. He grabbed at the ball and caught the tip. My guys are taught to come down and grab their jersey and then give two fakes to sell the run. Little things like that help a lot. Kudos to Rob Spence for that tidbit! He is now the offensive coordinator at Clemson and has been very instrumental in helping me develop as a coach.

HJam72
11-28-2006, 07:31 PM
How many blue footballs can coachdent acquire in one week? :)

Texan_Bill
11-28-2006, 07:32 PM
Carr should have held onto the ball better, but the 1) fault there mainly rests with the running back for clamping down on the fake. He grabbed at the ball and caught the tip. 2) My guys are taught to come down and grab their jersey and then give two fakes to sell the run. Little things like that help a lot. Kudos to Rob Spence for that tidbit! He is now the offensive coordinator at Clemson and has been very instrumental in helping me develop as a coach.

1) funny you mention that because I was thinking of the Texans first game against the Cowgurls and James Allen was blamed for knocking the ball away. Joe Theeeeeesman, suggested that the fake is always the responsibility of the QB... (First time Theeeesman blamed a QB for anything)

2) I actually remember our coaches teaching running backs that trick in junior high school. Good 'ol basics.

Runner
11-28-2006, 07:34 PM
How many blue footballs can coachdent acquire in one week?

That's a horrible stat. :)

The footballs/post count ratio is far more important.

coachdent
11-28-2006, 07:50 PM
1) funny you mention that because I was thinking of the Texans first game against the Cowgurls and James Allen was blamed for knocking the ball away. Joe Theeeeeesman, suggested that the fake is always the responsibility of the QB... (First time Theeeesman blamed a QB for anything)

2) I actually remember our coaches teaching running backs that trick in junior high school. Good 'ol basics.

I have zoned out that game! As I said, Carr ultimately does need to hold on to the ball, but RB's do grab at the ball and cause problems. And I am not alone when I say I don't like Joe either! :)

2) Good stuff indeed!

Honoring Earl 34
11-28-2006, 08:08 PM
How many looks does a defense give ? It looked like they put eight men in the box at times . Then it looked like they showed this look and then pulled out . It seems they are dictating what they want us to do and on cue thats what we do .

Lucky
11-28-2006, 08:11 PM
Thanks coach, for bringing football talk back to the Bullpen. No one has really wanted to get into the nuts & bolts of what the Texans are (or should be) doing this season (myself included).

The CBS analyst (can't remember who it was) in the Jets game made a point similar to yours, without the detail. He also felt the Texans needed to put more guys into the pattern and protect with less. If I were Kubiak, I would probably comeback by saying that removing the TEs & backs would invite the blitz. I don't think Kubiak wants to do that.

Kubiak has said that one of his primary goals this season was to reduce the number of sacks. And, he's done that to an extent. 31 sacks in 11 games may not look great, but when you take into account the mediocre running game and the injuries along the offensive line, it looks pretty good to me. Even if Carr gets rid of the ball before the blitz gets there, he's going to take more hits. And that's something the Texans want to avoid.

I can see your point about play action, but one of the reasons team run that is to create space between the front and back zones. If your back can keep the LBs from dropping so deep, that gives the WRs the room to work the gaps in the zone. The problem is that teams aren't respecting the Texans rushing attack. So what else can the Texans do to create gaps in the zone?

A lot of people think the Texans check down to the backs too much. I don't think the Texans pass to the backs enough. The WCO was invented because Bill Walsh didn't have great backs when he was offensive coordinator in Cincinnati. So, he used the backs as receivers out of the backfield in lieu of a running game. In SF, Walsh did the same thing, using a split backfield where both backs were threats to catch the ball. 4, 5, 6 yard receptions would move the team down the field until the defense became impatient and came up to cover the backs. That's when the holes in the zone opened up, and the wideouts made plays.

Think of the true WCO and you think of WRs making big plays after the catch. Look at the yards after catch for AJ and Moulds (3.8 & 3.7, respectively). That's way low for these types of big athletic wideouts. There is always a LB available to help out after the catch. These guys have to be moved, and if it can't be done with play action, you have to find another way.

Now, I'm not suggesting running this offense when it gets to 3rd & 8. I'm talking about sending the backs out on 1st down, rather than the unproductive runs up the middle. The Texans don't have the back to make that work. And the beauty of the split backfield is that it would make the defense hesitant to blitz. If they do, the backs could be there to pick it up or release into the pattern, depending on where the blitz is coming from. The split backfield gives a team the benefits of pass protection, but also allows the possibility of 5 receivers into the pattern.

I think this offense could work for the Texans because both Lundy and Cook are good receivers. Yes, I saw the Cook fumbles. But, I think they are anomalies and Cook would be a better ball carrier with more touches. Football is like a game of chess in some ways. By throwing to the backs more, the LBs must come up. This allows the WRs to make plays in the zone gaps. When the safeties come up to fill those gaps, the double move free the WRs downfield. The offense dictates to the defense, unlike what we've seen with the Texans offense the past 5 seasons.

thunderkyss
11-28-2006, 09:10 PM
The CBS analyst (can't remember who it was) in the Jets game made a point similar to yours, without the detail. He also felt the Texans needed to put more guys into the pattern and protect with less. If I were Kubiak, I would probably comeback by saying that removing the TEs & backs would invite the blitz. I don't think Kubiak wants to do that.

I heard him say that, and immediately thought he didn't know what he was talking about. For the remainder of the game, I paid more attention, and sure enough.... we barely kept a tightend, or the runningbacks in for pass protection. even on plays with two tightends, they'd both empty out into the pattern. Our front five did a pretty good job Sunday, and have been for the last few weeks.


I think this offense could work for the Texans because both Lundy and Cook are good receivers.

I think our offense will be great, once we get better at placing the ball, and taking more shots down the field. The Jets didn't look all that different from us, they couldn't run the ball, they threw to their backs about as often as we did..... & their Widereceivers weren't running free in the secondary. Pennington did a very good job of getting the ball where his receiver could make a play, and no one else, and they threw the ball downfield more often.

NO doubt, if our wide receivers(AJ) want David to throw them the ball more often, down the field, then they've got to make plays when he puts the ball in their hands.

I'm sure we ran more plays, but my first impression was that we probably ran 6 different plays...... the quick slant being used most predominately.... that really makes it easy for the defense.

Also, I can think of six plays where you can clearly see the open receiver(not the guy David threw the ball to) before the ball leaves David's hands, but David throws the ball to someone under tighter coverage.

I said I was going to watch the game again, so I can get you the times of the snaps so others can look at them as well, but I haven't done it yet.

ONe of the plays, was the bootleg to the right, where david ran the ball out of bounds. He had all day to find a receiver. Couldn't find one to the left where he was looking, then stepped out of bounds. Kevin Walter was sitting uncovered 8 yards from the LOS, right in front of David.... he just didn't see him.

Then there was one play, where David threw the ball to cook short of the first down, and a LB was there to prevent Cook from getting the First. You can clearly see in the replay, before David throws the ball, Owen Daniels past Cook, wide open, because he was behind the LBs, and the safeties were playing deep. It would have been a big play. David just didn't see him.

I'm not bashing on David. we all knows he needs to get better...... I'm just pointing out areas where he can.

He's also staring down one receiver, and going to his safety valve, regardless what kind of time he is getting in the pocket.

nunusguy
11-28-2006, 09:35 PM
"You can clearly see in the replay, before David throws the ball, Owen Daniels past Cook, wide open, because he was behind the LBs, and the safeties were playing deep. It would have been a big play. David just didn't see him."
**************************************
This is what I've always heard was the achilles heal of the Cover 2. The TE
over the middle, under the safeties but above the backers. We supposedly
couldn't run this because we didn't have the guy to do it. But now with
Daniels (or Putz), it shoud be effective on a regular basis ?

Scottyboy
11-28-2006, 09:50 PM
Excellent posts here gentlemen. You and Coach couldnt have said it better!
Always good to come on and see some real chalk talk.

Im going to go ahead and say it because you both tip to'ed around it guys...

Im Sorrt but It is... and always has been David Carr.

He Reminds me alot of Tim Couch. Drafted #1, given every chance and the world under a terrible system in Clevland- then unevadibilby cut and no longer playing in the NFL. Only god and family know where that dude is!!

Carr's a Bust, its time to face up Houston. Just like we all agreed on Capers.
It's time to all agreed and demand a new QB!!

:cowboy1:

Dre_80
11-28-2006, 09:56 PM
TRACK
Won the Big East indoor 60-meter title and the outdoor 100-meter dash title in 2002.

AGILITY TESTS
4.3 in the 40-yard dash … 41-inch vertical jump … 10-foot-4 broad jump.

thunderkyss
11-28-2006, 10:05 PM
Excellent posts here gentlemen. You and Coach couldnt have said it better!
Im going to go ahead and say it because you both tip to'ed around it guys...

Im Sorrt but It is... and always has been David Carr.

I'm not saying it's David Carr... I'm saying Carr is part of the problem, and being the QB, it's easy to see him as being a big problem...... I'm tip toeing here.

But we all knew this going in, Kubiak knew this going in... and what we are seeing, is what we should have expected. Defense is playing better, the Oline is playing better, David is playing better...... We're close, and I'm glad Kubiak isn't taking any short cuts. Most people might not believe me, but I'd much rather fix David, than win games right now. IF he fixes David, then we'll be winning for long time to come. If he doesn't, and we take shortcuts to get us an extra win or two...... we'll be fighting to get to .500 for years to come. We'll be up one year, then down the next, then up again, and down.....etc.

He Reminds me alot of Tim Couch. Drafted #1, given every chance and the world under a terrible system in Clevland- then unevadibilby cut and no longer playing in the NFL. Only god and family know where that dude is!!

Carr's a Bust, its time to face up Houston. Just like we all agreed on Capers.
It's time to all agreed and demand a new QB!!

:cowboy1:

If Tim didn't tear up his shoulder, BretFavre may not have finished his career as a GreenBayPacker.

TEXANS84
11-28-2006, 10:08 PM
Coach, is it me or are we seeing Singleback formations on 3rd and 5+ with AJ and Moulds on one side, and Lundy going into motion as a wide reciever on the far side. I'm pretty sure they ran that play once or twice against the Jets, more-so around the Jaguars away game. I can see how this would cause some problem for the defense, but wouldn't it just be an easy solution for the Will or the Sam just to "assign" themselves, thus still posing problems against the cover 2?

I do however love your breakdown of the "cover-2" in this thread. One of the best threads I have read in a very long time on this board. We truly appreciate it.

mexican_texan
11-28-2006, 10:12 PM
I always thought that the key to beating a Cover 2 is having a TE that the QB can throw to inside, under the safeties. Unfortunately, Carr doesn't seem to like throwing in the middle.

thunderkyss
11-28-2006, 10:15 PM
Coach, is it me or are we seeing Singleback formations on 3rd and 5+ with AJ and Moulds on one side, and Lundy going into motion as a wide reciever on the far side. I'm pretty sure they ran that play once or twice against the Jets, more-so around the Jaguars away game. I can see how this would cause some problem for the defense, but wouldn't it just be an easy solution for the Will or the Sam just to "assign" themselves, thus still posing problems against the cover 2?

I do however love your breakdown of the "cover-2" in this thread. One of the best threads I have read in a very long time on this board. We truly appreciate it.

Yes we've done that alot, but that is not the same as a single back set. a Single back set would have two TE's & three receivers, or 4 wide receivers. you play that totally different from a running back motioning out of the backfield. Then since we never throw to that RB out of that formation, as a defense, you can pretty much forget about it.

Mr. White
11-28-2006, 10:18 PM
A question for the X's and O's guys:

Is it against a cover 2 when the Texans run the empty set formation?

Hulk75
11-28-2006, 10:27 PM
...........................FS..................... .........................SS


...........................W....................M. .....................S

........CB......................DE.......DT.....DT .....DE...............................CB
..................................TE...T...G...C.. .G...T.................................X
.........Z........................................ QB...............

.................................................. .FB

.................................................. .TB


The base Cover 2 with a 4-3 front. The "Tampa 2". The defense that has shut us down. The reason why some have said Carr can't do this and Carr can't do that. The reason that coach Kubiak says we can't get vertical down the field. Let's break this down:

The strengths of the Cover two is that it potentially puts every defender into the run game defense. The two corners offer immediate run forcers cutting off the outside. The two safeties come off the has to support inside out and run the "alleys" (the two zones in between the wideout and the last man on the line of scrimmage). Seven men immediately in the box with three linebackers.

From this offensive set and the Texans' other well used set this defense does pose some major problems in getting the ball downfield.

AJ and Moulds left, tight end right, two backs in the backfield.

We get in this set a lot on third down.

Here are the problems and solutions:

PROBLEMS:

1. The Texans do not have anyone to stretch the field from a talent standpoint. AJ is not a burner and certainly Moulds is not either.

2. Kubiak mentioned a bunch of times about not being able to get down the field because of the running game or lack thereof. What he is really saying is that the vertical passing game for the Texans PRIMARILY comes off of the run game through play action. Those of you with TBO or who tape the games can go back and watch how many times on third and 5+ the Texans run play action. The linebackers don't honor the fake at all because it is bogus. This is a major problem. You have to be able to generate vertical threats through other means than play action. But a further look at the Cover 2 shows just how misplaced the Texan attack is:

If you look at the above set, you can eliminate three players immediately from the vertical game. The fullback, the tailback and the tight end. The Achillies heal of the Cover 2 is the deep middle. With receivers split to the outside on either side, there is no one to threaten the middle of the field. The tight end up the middle is the only option, but this is an extremely simple route to cover with a linebacker running with the tight end. Upfield, thus freeing up the safeties to help with the wideouts.

In addition, when the Cover 2 corner sees his receiver (#1 receiver) go vertical, he is backpedalling and eyeing the second receiver inside. In the above set, the tight end. When they both go vertical, he goes vertical. So the Cover 2 turns into Cover 4 and you aren't getting deep ball shots there. What you are getting is bogus play action and then the QB being told to take a shot and throwing the ball deep to AJ. The safety comes off the hash because there is nothing there to threaten him. The corner is also running with AJ and you have a ball forced. Or... you have Carr checking down and dumping it off into the flat to the fullback or the back out of the backfield. This is his read....EVERY TIME. There is nothing there. There is little variation from it. That is why we keep seeing the dump off. The Eagles do the same thing (dink and dunk)....BUT there is a difference. See later...

When we go to the second set with Moulds and AJ to the same side, the Cover 2 automatically becomes a Cover 4 to that side. The corner will bail and the safety will be responsible for that quarter of the field. You are not getting over the top of that. To the other side, it is completely lights out. The tight end isn't running over the safety to his side, who can now help out on a possible post from the inside receiver to the other side (which rarely happens with us because we don't run it much and secondly, Moulds doesn't have the jets to burn that route over the top). The corner now can come or play games with his outside linebacker and cover the tight end. This now frees the backside linebacker to fire.

3. Scoring is down throughout the NFL, but yardage is up. Especially in the passing game. The tough rules on DBs and not allowing them to put hands on receivers has really opened the door for more open passing attacks. But when you get down into the red zone, teams abandon the Cover 2 and go into man mode. This is where the Texans are hurting because they don't have the athleticism to get open down there.

SOLUTIONS

1. To beat the Cover 2, you must use trips sets and motion. The Texans use very little of each. This requires taking our fullback off the field. :francis: :shoot: :tease: Sorry...this has been a source of frustration for me for quite sometime. Look at the difference for the defense now out of a trips set. Now this is trips with 3 WRs on the field. Not the trips set we use with Brunner, Daniels and AJ. That is what we call a triple set. MUCH different. Triple isn't giving you a deep threat, and it also causes you problems in the run game if you are not physically superior because it brings more big boys into the box.

...........................FS..................... .........................SS



.....................................W............ ....M.....................S

................CB................DE.....DT.....DT .....DE...............................CB
..................................TE...T...G...C.. .G...T.................................Z
.................................................Q B...............H............Y

.................................................. S


This is the common adjustment to trips for Cover 2. Advantage? Definitely Offense! What this set does is moves a linebacker out of the box and into coverage. The Sam (S) must walk out on #2 (Y) to respect the pass. The best run stopper, Mike (M), must now also be a two way player and be aware of Wr #3 (H). The third MAJOR problem with the defense is that you now have your Will linebacker (W) or the weakest linebacker of the bunch in a very strong location. He has a tight end to his side and an uncovered lineman. This is what my team refers to as "insert, thrust... repeat". You wear out that left side with middle zone. The corner sticks his nose into the action and you leak the tight end out into the flat. You run inside zone to the right and the tight end is coming down inside to the Will linebacker and the backside guard and tackle are doubling to no one. Frontside guard and center double EASILY up to the middle linebacker who is removed. It is run game paradise on the backside.

From a passing perspective, you now have lienbackers trying to cover wide receivers. Hundreds of route combos to work out here. My favs:

-Z Curl, Y Out (turn up if not open), H post. The H holds the linebacker off of the curl and the out and up takes the top off of the safety as does the post. The curl is easy pickings. :mario2:

- Post and corner games with two combos of receivers. Crossing and overlapping the routes and getting to the zones. We do NONE of this. Cover 2 does not like trips and does not like overlapping routes. It requires the defense to be very disciplined in their drops.

2. The use of motion gives you advantages at the point of attack and requires the Cover 2 to convert. Most Cover 2 teams will check to Cover 3 or four to the trips side or the motion to trips. If you motion to trips, you get advantages in four ways.

+First, the defense is often slow to rotate and out of position.
+Second, the defense blows a check and somebody misses thier assignment.
+Third, the defender is moving out to the motion and you run a guy under him. Now he has to stop and reverse field instead of covering the route from a standstill. Much more difficult.
+Fourth, it gives you advantages in the run game by forcing the defense to rotate and show their hand.

We do too much standing around and come out in too many vanilla, balanced sets. You have to incorporate more unbalanced sets because you will never beat the Cover 2 attacking it with balanced sets. The only team that can really do that is Indy and they do it because their tight end is more like a wide receiver and Manning has six days to throw.

3. To go vertical, you must develop a vertical passing game without resorting to play action. Play action actually compromises your protection. If a team is blitzing on a play action, the defense essentially is dictating the quick throw right now or it is a sack.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I do not want this to be a Carr or anti-Carr thread. Because my take on Carr is that I have seen him improve and make better decisions. I really can't judge the guy based on some of the things I seen him deal with this season. There is not a quarterback in the NFL who is going to be competent on 3rd and 5 or more when he comes out of the huddle looking at two tight ends, a fullback, a tailback and one wide receiver. It is silly and frustrating to watch.


I will end with this thought... I know a number of offensive coordinators on the college and professional level. It boggles my mind to see the number of plays that they put in their playbooks. When it come right down to it, they do not get to half of them in a game. There is something to be said for simplifying things and running your good stuff. Most pass games in the NFL are on a tags. Meaning, when we run a play at our place we call it
Trips Rt. 90 Curl.
All the receivers know their routes and the QB knows his defender to throw off of. In the NFL, that same call is
Trips Right Montana BOSS Z4 Razor Y Angle S Jet
Same play. You tell me. Can you see where a QB might be in a quandry when trying to decipher where his read lies? Can you see the ridiculous nature of this when you call Trips Right Ohio Dance Z4 Rip Y Stay S Jet?
In this second play, the back is not staying in to block, he is taking the place of the second receiver who is now running his Rip route.

Definitely need to simplify and bring in the third receiver. Kevin Walter is no dud. I would rather see him than Jamel Cook.

Good stuff!
Play Trips attack one side of the field more often, AND I agree with Jameel Cook the guy canot block, and I would much rather see Walters on the field more then Cook.

Carr needs to be rolled out more and I dont mean PA just get the guy out of the pocket, and were are the more designed runs that Kubiak said he was going to do with Carr, I know we have ran 1 a game after the Jax game, but maybe twice or three times would not be so bad.

Like it or not Kubiak is still learning to, I did not really believe that myself when people would say it, but after seeing some of his play calls of late I do agree.

coachdent
11-28-2006, 10:29 PM
Thanks coach, for bringing football talk back to the Bullpen. No one has really wanted to get into the nuts & bolts of what the Texans are (or should be) doing this season (myself included).

Lots of good thoughts and I am glad that there is a willing audience ofr serious football talk here too! A couple of points about your observations.

In general, I am also quite happy overall with the direction we are moving. I am obviously a big advocate for running the zone. I think we can run it more effectively by staying truer to it.

I think that Carr has shown a lot of improvement and has improved as the year has gone on in general. His propensity to throw that WTHeck ball is annoying, but hopefully will continue to be corrected.

Pass protection might be the source of another long thread of explaination! Kubiak has been Uberaware of the sack situation since the Tennessee debacle. As a result, he has gone into a bit of shell and has come out in very conservative sets with the tight end and two backs constantly. But you cannot win in the NFL with two tight ends and two backs on the field on third and long. You just can't.

Our main problem with pass protection early on was that we would deploy those backs into route that we love to hit so much (and i'm not saying this is the worst thing on earth). But we were doing it at the expense of securing protection. Our tackles were really struggling against Tennessee, yet our backs were free releasing into pattern because linebackers weren't coming. These are called check release routes. These are different from the West Coast routes. West Coast Routes are run with the back immediately getting on his horse and out into pattern. They are quick routes like outs and angles to the middle where they don't stop. They have no pass protection responsibilities. When our backs run their routes, most of the time they pause for their linebacker and when he doesn't come they go four to five yards upfield and SIT. They are checkdown guys. Well against Tennessee, our backs were getting out and leaving our tackles to struggle and lose the one on one battles on the defensive ends. Sometimes, you need to adjust your protection to help out a tackle with a tough DE. Our opponents do it a lot to Mario. They "chip" him and then get out into route. Early in the season, we weren't chipping at all. We still don't do much of that.

Secondly, when you put a tight end into the game and release him, you are making it a hellish block for the tackle. You just can't do this in the NFL to a rookie tackle. A good defensive end will fly past that tackle before he can get his hand up off the ground. The defensive end is a man removed from the tackle who now must kickstep vertically at least two or three times. Generally, he opens up his shoulders to the rusher and he is done. Or, he simply can't get back quick enough and the DE speed rushes him, rips the inside arm and wham...sautee'd tackle and QB! Incorporating the tight end into your pass protection complicates things a lot and gives the defense more blitzing capabilities. It opens the door for zone blitzes as well.

You are limited in trips sets and one back sets because you must define who is out in coverage. I could draw up literally 10 blitz combonations to the tight end side that would make a rookie tackle's head spin! But if that tackle is to the open end side, his assignment becomes much more clear.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

On creating vertical stretch :

To create a vertical stretch, you must also create a horizontal stretch. We will run AJ on a crossing route at 4 yards. This is called a drag. but we don't run the complimentary route off of this. Which is a J Out.

When AJ runs his drag, what do you see? The corner trails him across the field and either tackles him for three yards or he pushes him out of bounds for a 7 or 8 yard gain. This is called 2 man...which we see a lot of too. 2 safeties over the top. And man-to-man underneath. The J-Out sells this drag route with AJ starting across the formation like he is going to bust it across the field again. Maybe he even comes in a bit of short motion to help define the coverage better as 2-man or true Cover 2. If the corner follows, AJ plants hard on his inside foot and breaks straight back out to the sidelines. Huge separation occurs because we run the drag so much. no you have AJ in space. If it is Cover 2, then AJ does the same thing, only this time he sits in the vacant area. Nice route...GREAT route. We don't run it.

The offense dictates to the defense, unlike what we've seen with the Texans offense the past 5 seasons.

Amen! We cannot dictate anything when we consistently come out in these vanilla sets. We limit ourselves in terms of the routes you can run. I'd like to see us be a little more dynamic.

The most difficult thing to do as an offensive coordinator is to score points. moving the ball can be easy at times and this offense has done so a number of times this season. But defenses are more about bending and not breaking and then letting the athletes take us over in the red zone. It is very difficult to consistently put together 12, 15 and 18 play drives in the NFL to score. that is where our offense is at. We need to be able to get some big plays of 20 yards or more to take some of the heat off of the playcalling. We call them momentum changers. On my team, we shoot for five of those per game either through the air or on the ground. When we get that, we usually win. When we don't, we usually don't.

P.S.
I am not in a good place right now to discuss Jamel! I decline. However I will only say that I would firmly be against seeing him in the game in a split back situation in an effort to get him more balls! :francis::phone: :crying: Let me go take my meds now! :)

coachdent
11-28-2006, 10:35 PM
A question for the X's and O's guys:

Is it against a cover 2 when the Texans run the empty set formation?


The Texans come out in this every once in a while...which coachdent likes very much... They do so to open up the passing game a bit when Kubes is feeling randy about our protection issues. Our main problem in this set is the short, scaredie three step drops we take out of it. We have gotten a ton of balls batted down when we go five wide.

Solution for that is put the sucker in the friggin' gun already! This is 2006 man! Get in the stinkin' gun and see the field better and the knockdowns will decrease exponentially.

But to answer your question, the defense would not, and could not play Cover 2 against a five wide set. They would check out of that coverage and into whatever "hot" call they had for the week. This is an automatic defensive call that they get into when they see a certain set. so they see the no backs and they check to Cloud or a 9 or 7 coverage. Too detailed to get into each one, but various looks to be sound defensively.

ArlingtonTexan
11-28-2006, 10:50 PM
The most difficult thing to do as an offensive coordinator is to score points. moving the ball can be easy at times and this offense has done so a number of times this season. But defenses are more about bending and not breaking and then letting the athletes take us over in the red zone. It is very difficult to consistently put together 12, 15 and 18 play drives in the NFL to score. that is where our offense is at. We need to be able to get some big plays of 20 yards or more to take some of the heat off of the playcalling. We call them momentum changers. On my team, we shoot for five of those per game either through the air or on the ground. When we get that, we usually win. When we don't, we usually don't.


Previously, I have noted (other threads) that the Texans offense is efficient, but not effective. In this thread you have given a good technical basis for why is this the case. In the this paragraph, you have summed everything up well. In laymen's term effective offenses score TDs efficient ones gain yardage and first downs. If I am reading this paragraph correctly, the difference be effiecient and effective can be those 5 or so plays a game.

coachdent
11-28-2006, 11:24 PM
Previously, I have noted (other threads) that the Texans offense is efficient, but not effective. In this thread you have given a good technical basis for why is this the case. In the this paragraph, you have summed everything up well. In laymen's term effective offenses score TDs efficient ones gain yardage and first downs. If I am reading this paragraph correctly, the difference be effiecient and effective can be those 5 or so plays a game.

I would say so. You just need those big plays to get your batteries recharged and excited. It just seems so futile when you know you have to string together 12 plays to score. A lot of pressure. One of the reasons Brian Billick looked so good in Minnesota is that he had Randy Moss to take it 65 yards to the house on second down. Coordinators become gurus throwing in those 2 play 65 yard TD drives! Would be nice to see.

Honoring Earl 34
11-28-2006, 11:28 PM
To me a coach or QB sees something he likes and takes advantage of it . Donald Driver scored on a slant from about fifty yds out last night . I don't know if thats coverage , read or what but our slants don't do that . They run the WCO and Favre throws downfield a lot maybe that loosens up the defense .

I think if the Texans can learn against the Colts they can play anyone's cover 2 . We have enough film being that we play them twice a year .

ArlingtonTexan
11-29-2006, 12:07 AM
I would say so. You just need those big plays to get your batteries recharged and excited. It just seems so futile when you know you have to string together 12 plays to score. A lot of pressure. One of the reasons Brian Billick looked so good in Minnesota is that he had Randy Moss to take it 65 yards to the house on second down. Coordinators become gurus throwing in those 2 play 65 yard TD drives! Would be nice to see.

One of the debates we have on this board is the effect of coaching. Obviously, true elite and sometime near elite talents make any coach really smart(it goes w/o saying what below average talent can make one look like). It seems though when you even step down to even the Andre Johnson level (I believe that is very good, but not elite) coaching becomes a different ball game. Then you either have to 1-execute perfectly, 2- scheme your way to those plays or 3-find a balance between the two.

Let me ask an oversimplified question if you had the choice between the first two (with whatever inherient weakness), running a conservative, but nearly perfectly executed offense or a well designed innovative offense where execution can be a problem , what would be your preference? why would a coach choose one of these paths versus the other?

coachdent
11-29-2006, 07:03 AM
One of the debates we have on this board is the effect of coaching. Obviously, true elite and sometime near elite talents make any coach really smart(it goes w/o saying what below average talent can make one look like). It seems though when you even step down to even the Andre Johnson level (I believe that is very good, but not elite) coaching becomes a different ball game. Then you either have to 1-execute perfectly, 2- scheme your way to those plays or 3-find a balance between the two.

Let me ask an oversimplified question if you had the choice between the first two (with whatever inherient weakness), running a conservative, but nearly perfectly executed offense or a well designed innovative offense where execution can be a problem , what would be your preference? why would a coach choose one of these paths versus the other?

Good question. Ironically, my team is a similiar state of affairs as the Texans. I coach at a Charter school that began playing varsity football seven years ago. We play in the toughest conference in the state. We do not have the athletes to matchup against the defenses we play.

We run a spread offense that employs some elements of the Run & Shoot. We are solely a one back team. We are the only team in the state to play this offense. It gives us some unique advantages in that we are the only ones who do it, so we are difficult to prepare for. In addition, it is the most viable way for us to move the ball. Everyone in our league would love it if I lined up in two backs and tried to pound the ball between the tackles. We can't do that.

When I speak of the 12 play drives and the frustrations, those were ours over the past two seasons. We did a lot of driving the ball in between the thirty yard lines, but couldn't punch it in. The beauty of any offense is the ability to be able to be explosive as well as able to methodically tear people apart. But when your X's aren't as good as their O's, you can make a decision to be slow, plodding and conservative (ala the Capers' era) and play a bunch of low scoring, close games. Or you can try to make things happen offensively and outscore people. Offensively, you have more control over the game than defensively. I would argue that playing the tight, slow game puts you into low scoring, tight games where you are ultimately going to put yourself in a 50-50 situation to win. But you also find yourself in that game EVERY week against EVERY opponent. (see: losses to Cleveland Brown).

aj.
11-29-2006, 07:57 AM
Good stuff coach.

fwiw, the current edition of SI also has a fairly good piece on Cover 2.

whiskeyrbl
11-29-2006, 10:30 AM
I was wondering what your thoughts on this are. In our ineptness to throw downfield is it that our recievers are not open or our QB checking down to fast. As this year has gone by I have noticed for the most part that Carr does not seem to be as anxious in the pocket as in past years. Now with that being said is it a reasonable thought that maybe he is progressing thru his reads to fast in order to get rid of the ball? Hence all the dump offs to his 3rd or 4th option. This is not a knock on Carr just a question if his reads or to fast or if our recievers just cannot get open.

run-david-run
11-29-2006, 10:43 AM
I think we should run some plays where there is no dump off. Have Lundy or whatever back protect, and send 4 receivers into the route (6 blockers) that go at least 7 yards downfield, hopefully more. I would rather see Carr force some balls, especialy with the receiving talent we have, then continue to thorw for 4 yards on 3rd and 7. Also, if we cant run effectivley out of our regular sets, we need to spread out the D with 3 and 4 receiver sets. Basicaly, we need to trust our players and get a little creative.

Marcus
11-29-2006, 10:50 AM
The dink and dunk, side to side short passing is the result of not being able to effectively run the ball.

If you can't run the ball, throwing it downfield is a turnover waiting to happen.

SESupergenius
11-29-2006, 10:54 AM
Anyone else see a problem with Carr not being able to audible too much? Coachdent has layed out the problems that several of us have been talking about for years now. Maxing one side and being able to audible has been known to counter the cover 2, but still we need personnel to do this.

Honoring Earl 34
11-29-2006, 11:10 AM
What personel do you need ?

HJam72
11-29-2006, 12:25 PM
Anyone else see a problem with Carr not being able to audible too much? Coachdent has layed out the problems that several of us have been talking about for years now. Maxing one side and being able to audible has been known to counter the cover 2, but still we need personnel to do this.

I've ALWAYS hated that Carr can't audible much. There's no sense in running a play that you know the D is just hoping for or calling an audible that is self-projecting.

coachdent
11-29-2006, 01:20 PM
I was wondering what your thoughts on this are. In our ineptness to throw downfield is it that our recievers are not open or our QB checking down to fast. As this year has gone by I have noticed for the most part that Carr does not seem to be as anxious in the pocket as in past years. Now with that being said is it a reasonable thought that maybe he is progressing thru his reads to fast in order to get rid of the ball? Hence all the dump offs to his 3rd or 4th option. This is not a knock on Carr just a question if his reads or to fast or if our recievers just cannot get open.


I think it is a combonation of things.

Without having access to the wide copies of the Texan games, some of the deductions I make are based on sets and where I see guys ending up after plays. But there are a number of observable things thta you can draw conclusions from.

1. Our receivers do not get much separation. Neither AJ, nor Moulds seperates from people out of breaks. This means that the QB needs to fit the ball into tight spots. When you have two tight ends on the field running routes, they aren't getting huge seperation either.

2. Dovetailed with the individual separation, is the fact that many of our routes have AJ on one side and Moulds on the other. They are therefore running routes by themselves which makes their inability to burst away from defenders heightened that much more. Other offenses take advantages of picks and overlapping routes. We don't use enough of that.

If you look at Carr's 7 picks, the majority of them are on deep balls. He isn't forcing the ball into coverage underneath. Favre is a gunsligner and rips the ball into coverage sometimes. But that can be very risky. I think it is a positive that Carr checks down rather than take a sack. He also has made better decisions this year of when to pull the ball down and run. This year he is at least going through his progressions. In year's past, there was a certain mentality of "you must go here with the ball". This was both a coach's directive as well as Carr's fault.

There are sometimes when a QB needs to look at a covered route a little longer to open up another route. If you give up too quickly on one route and go right to the second choice, then you run the risk of staring down that second receiver whose route hasn't yet developed.

*Note: To Carr's defense, if I am throwing a route in which my tight end is the FIRST option and I see Daniels running a "I'm not getting the ball lackadaisical" seam route, I'm getting off of that read real quick!

prostock101
11-29-2006, 05:40 PM
Great stuff, Coach Dent. Nice to see some analysis that makes sense without just screaming "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!" I do have a question. When Kub arrived the offense was supposed to focus on running the ball first and foremost in his scheme. And you hear it daily from the tv guys always saying you have to run the ball to open up the passing game. It just seems that even at the games where we've run the ball well, we always end up passing it more. And I would bet that you would be hard pressed to find any team in the league that has a game with more runs than passes. Is this just the state of the game in the NFL now?

sleepwalker
11-29-2006, 05:50 PM
The easiest way to beat the cover 2 defense:

Run the ball up the middle effectively & the LBs will respect play action which opens up the middle of the field for the TE & post routes for the WRs.

If you can do that then you can beat it. The problem is that we cant run up the middle very well & neither Carr or the RBs try very hard to sell play action anyway.

I totally agree, we are terrible at running the ball so teams sit back...I think we have pretty much covered all the reasons why.

We have no talent at RB, no talent in the OL, Carr is in a slump...What is the point of not playing us with 2 deep...The Jets shut down our run and whipped our butts with 8 defensive backs.

There's probably 50 plays and 3 or 4 different packages D's run dropping 2...4/3 3/4 Nickel Dime.

We can't stretch the field vertically because IT TAKES MORE THAN 2 SECONDS OF PROTECTION to do that.

Vinny
11-29-2006, 06:00 PM
http://forums.houstontexans.com/images/rating/rating_5.gif thread

dat_boy_yec
11-29-2006, 06:14 PM
I'm not going to quote because there is a lot of stuff I think would be interesting to respond to, but to keep it short I decided to pick up where I left off. If we were running a balanced set it would be easy to free up the TE in the middle and make the safety account for him. This could be done by either running the TE on the opposite side on a short crossing route which would have to be accounted for by the MLB before he could drop back to cover the TE going behind the middle, or releasing a back into the middle which the MLB would also have to account for before he could drop back to try to cover the TE. Now I'm not a coach, but I like to consider myself a student of the game and the best way I see to counter a cover two is running multiple routes through the same zone making whoever is covering the zone have to make a choice. While it is easier for a slot receiver to get to the middle of the field and make the safety drop in it is the safeties responsibility to pick up whoever drops into their zone. If Daniels drops into his zone and picks up 15-20 yds. he'll have to account for him leaving the CB to cover his own zone. In man coverage it's easier to pick on the indivual that's covering, but in zone it's best to pick on the soft zones.

Another thing you mentioned was AJ running deep and running an out route or J to get separation and I've noticed this on alot of plays as well. We only go deep to AJ and Moulds on go routes, this is inneffective because you don't force the secondary to adjust they just have to run with the WR to cover. I've noticed many times when we do go deep that both secondary players are running to try and get behind him. If he ran a crossing route to the inside deep the middle of the field would be open because he would change directions before either defenders and the safety on the other side would have also rolled to the other side. AJ would catch the ball in space and have an easier time of picking up yds.

On protection with two TE's releasing it is opposite of what you say in most cases. As the TE releases he has to bump the DE while he does this he buys the tackle a fraction of a second to adjust to where the DE will go. Say he bumps him as he tried to go inside this would force the DE to rebalance himself as the tackle jumped on him. If he were going to take the outside route, with the bump the DE has a longer route and thus allowing the tackle to get further upfield and engage him there.

One other thing which is just in general. Our line is doing a good job of pass protection without having to go to max protection. If you need any evidence of this notice the success rate of our empty backfield sets. Theoretically is we had just one extra person stay in for protection we could still send 3-4 receiver's on routes.

run-david-run
11-29-2006, 06:37 PM
I think Mathis could help us unlock the Cover 2. If we line him and AJ on the same side, have AJ run a deep post and Mathis an out and up, he should be singled up against a corener. I think we need to start using AJ as a decoy, espcialy in 3rd down situations, because defenses know he is the first guy you account for when stoping the Texans.

thunderkyss
11-30-2006, 12:35 AM
I think we should run some plays where there is no dump off. Have Lundy or whatever back protect, and send 4 receivers into the route (6 blockers) that go at least 7 yards downfield, hopefully more. I would rather see Carr force some balls, especialy with the receiving talent we have, then continue to thorw for 4 yards on 3rd and 7. Also, if we cant run effectivley out of our regular sets, we need to spread out the D with 3 and 4 receiver sets. Basicaly, we need to trust our players and get a little creative.

Granted AJ needs to catch the balls that are put in his hands.... at the same time, most of the other throws to AJ & Moulds were off. Even the ones that were caught were behind them.

If nothing else changed in our last two games, except ball placement, we'd have scored in the high 20s..... easy.

The dink and dunk, side to side short passing is the result of not being able to effectively run the ball.

If you can't run the ball, throwing it downfield is a turnover waiting to happen.

The Jets & the Bills didn't have a problem with it.

Anyone else see a problem with Carr not being able to audible too much? Coachdent has layed out the problems that several of us have been talking about for years now. Maxing one side and being able to audible has been known to counter the cover 2, but still we need personnel to do this.

I don't like the fact that David isn't allowed to audible. That doesn't make sense to me.

At the same time, there are a lot of things he can do to take advantage of what is there. Let's say we're playing Dallas. Anytime you see RoyWilliams or Patrick Watkins maned up on OwenDaniels, even better, Andre or Eric Moulds(which happened several times)....... you pick on him. If Greg Ellis is covering Owen Daniels, or Jameel Cook..... you pick on him. If you have a run off right tackle called up, and you have Owen Daniel lined up on the right sideline with Greg Ellis covering him, you don't motion Owen Daniels to the normal tightend spot......... that just killed me, Especially when GregEllis was able to get into the backfield and tackle our running back.

Fico
11-30-2006, 02:20 AM
A few flaws in your orginal post.

First of all if you run the tight end trips formation you wont have a linebacker on reciever in space, you will have a nickel back, because no team will be running base, with 3 wide unless its a short yardage situation. Secondly your theory about the weakside backer being in a poor position is somewhat flawed. First of all in your diagram, the front is set the wrong way, the run strength is towards the tight end which is where you would set the front. Meaning you would have your Dlinemen in a 9 technique on the TE and 3 tech on the G a Nose shade and a 7 tech on the weakside tackle. In this situation the mike linebacker would probably make a "sear" call meaning the down linemen shoot their inside gaps, taking care of both As the weakside B and the strongside C, leaving the Weakside backer only responsible for the Strongside B gap. If the ball bounces outside you have a cornerback sitting at 3 yards outside the tackle and 3 yards deep. Your strong safety will be walked down to about 10 yards flat foot reading the tight end off the snap. The tightend will indiacate run pass not by high hat or low hat but by his hand placement on the DE while blocking. If his hands are on the outside chances are he is releasing to the flats, if he digs underneath to get the backer chances are a counter or G play is coming the DE's way. There are also several ways to manipulate the front and run blitz to close all gaps and or to make the ball bounce giving you time to rally.


.................................................. .............FS
....................SS
..........................W............M.......... .......N....................CB
.....CB........DE.........DT......NT.....DE
..................TE....T....G....C....G....T..... ................................Z
...................................QB............. ....H...............Y

...................................TB

If you are running an inside zone play to the right of your formation, away from the run strength towards the passing strength, and you block in the way you described..... zoning the TE hard underneath to the Will backer, and then having a double on the DT with the T and G and having the Center take the NT and the weakside G combo from the NT to the Mike backer..... with the sear call i had mentioned before the gap in which your were trying to open, the weakside B gap, will be closed by a knifing DE already lined up with inside technique, this cause the ball to bounce where your nickel back, CB, and FS will all be waiting due to the time it takes to bounce.

The first pass play you described the Z curl, Y out, H post is very easily matched in Cover 2. You curl defender, the nickel back.... would do what his position name implies and defend the curl, allowing the CB to jump the out. The vertical of #3, the H back is the responsiblity of the Mike backer unless a special tag is made to the back side safety. One would think an H back on a Mike backer would be match in favor of the offense but the Mike backer will have help from the FS, safety of the passing strength, becuase he has no other vertical threat out of #2 or #1.

I know from experience that you can play cover two as much as you can play cover four to doubles and trips..... if you change the the way you handle number three, which there are several ways so that an offence does not get a clear picture of how you are handling that vertical, you wont get eploited by cover two's weakness the deep middle.

I think that you expect to many blown assignments and too slow reactions to make ideas work.

The way you beat cover two, which you stated, is the deep middle, corner routes, and crossing routes...... but in order for those to have the desired affect you must be able to protect a 5 or 7 step drop which we cannot...... that is the reason the sck numbers are down and the dump offs are up. 3 steps drops, 1 2 3 throw, even if that means check down get the ball out.

Like it has been stated AJ is definately a legitament deep threat, Moulds and Walters are solid posession recievers...... a common misconception is you have to use the run to set up the pass, but you can also use the pass to set up the run. If we were to come out slingin' one game off the bat teams would back allowing us to establish a running game, which in turn would give us the ability to play action.

Anyways just playing a little devils advocate to someone who has an idea of what there talking about.

GO TEXANS :)

El Tejano
11-30-2006, 11:26 AM
This explains alot and it also means that we have not answered any offensive line problems. By the looks of the formations we run, seems like the FB has to be in for pass protection.

kingh99
11-30-2006, 01:03 PM
...........................FS..................... .........................SS


...........................W....................M. .....................S

........CB......................DE.......DT.....DT .....DE...............................CB
..................................TE...T...G...C.. .G...T.................................X
.........Z........................................ QB...............

.................................................. .FB

.................................................. .TB


The base Cover 2 with a 4-3 front. The "Tampa 2". The defense that has shut us down. The reason why some have said Carr can't do this and Carr can't do that. The reason that coach Kubiak says we can't get vertical down the field. Let's break this down:

The strengths of the Cover two is that it potentially puts every defender into the run game defense. The two corners offer immediate run forcers cutting off the outside. The two safeties come off the has to support inside out and run the "alleys" (the two zones in between the wideout and the last man on the line of scrimmage). Seven men immediately in the box with three linebackers.

From this offensive set and the Texans' other well used set this defense does pose some major problems in getting the ball downfield.

AJ and Moulds left, tight end right, two backs in the backfield.

We get in this set a lot on third down.

Here are the problems and solutions:

PROBLEMS:

1. The Texans do not have anyone to stretch the field from a talent standpoint. AJ is not a burner and certainly Moulds is not either.

2. Kubiak mentioned a bunch of times about not being able to get down the field because of the running game or lack thereof. What he is really saying is that the vertical passing game for the Texans PRIMARILY comes off of the run game through play action. Those of you with TBO or who tape the games can go back and watch how many times on third and 5+ the Texans run play action. The linebackers don't honor the fake at all because it is bogus. This is a major problem. You have to be able to generate vertical threats through other means than play action. But a further look at the Cover 2 shows just how misplaced the Texan attack is:

If you look at the above set, you can eliminate three players immediately from the vertical game. The fullback, the tailback and the tight end. The Achillies heal of the Cover 2 is the deep middle. With receivers split to the outside on either side, there is no one to threaten the middle of the field. The tight end up the middle is the only option, but this is an extremely simple route to cover with a linebacker running with the tight end. Upfield, thus freeing up the safeties to help with the wideouts.

In addition, when the Cover 2 corner sees his receiver (#1 receiver) go vertical, he is backpedalling and eyeing the second receiver inside. In the above set, the tight end. When they both go vertical, he goes vertical. So the Cover 2 turns into Cover 4 and you aren't getting deep ball shots there. What you are getting is bogus play action and then the QB being told to take a shot and throwing the ball deep to AJ. The safety comes off the hash because there is nothing there to threaten him. The corner is also running with AJ and you have a ball forced. Or... you have Carr checking down and dumping it off into the flat to the fullback or the back out of the backfield. This is his read....EVERY TIME. There is nothing there. There is little variation from it. That is why we keep seeing the dump off. The Eagles do the same thing (dink and dunk)....BUT there is a difference. See later...

When we go to the second set with Moulds and AJ to the same side, the Cover 2 automatically becomes a Cover 4 to that side. The corner will bail and the safety will be responsible for that quarter of the field. You are not getting over the top of that. To the other side, it is completely lights out. The tight end isn't running over the safety to his side, who can now help out on a possible post from the inside receiver to the other side (which rarely happens with us because we don't run it much and secondly, Moulds doesn't have the jets to burn that route over the top). The corner now can come or play games with his outside linebacker and cover the tight end. This now frees the backside linebacker to fire.

3. Scoring is down throughout the NFL, but yardage is up. Especially in the passing game. The tough rules on DBs and not allowing them to put hands on receivers has really opened the door for more open passing attacks. But when you get down into the red zone, teams abandon the Cover 2 and go into man mode. This is where the Texans are hurting because they don't have the athleticism to get open down there.

SOLUTIONS

1. To beat the Cover 2, you must use trips sets and motion. The Texans use very little of each. This requires taking our fullback off the field. :francis: :shoot: :tease: Sorry...this has been a source of frustration for me for quite sometime. Look at the difference for the defense now out of a trips set. Now this is trips with 3 WRs on the field. Not the trips set we use with Brunner, Daniels and AJ. That is what we call a triple set. MUCH different. Triple isn't giving you a deep threat, and it also causes you problems in the run game if you are not physically superior because it brings more big boys into the box.

...........................FS..................... .........................SS



.....................................W............ ....M.....................S

................CB................DE.....DT.....DT .....DE...............................CB
..................................TE...T...G...C.. .G...T.................................Z
.................................................Q B...............H............Y

.................................................. S


This is the common adjustment to trips for Cover 2. Advantage? Definitely Offense! What this set does is moves a linebacker out of the box and into coverage. The Sam (S) must walk out on #2 (Y) to respect the pass. The best run stopper, Mike (M), must now also be a two way player and be aware of Wr #3 (H). The third MAJOR problem with the defense is that you now have your Will linebacker (W) or the weakest linebacker of the bunch in a very strong location. He has a tight end to his side and an uncovered lineman. This is what my team refers to as "insert, thrust... repeat". You wear out that left side with middle zone. The corner sticks his nose into the action and you leak the tight end out into the flat. You run inside zone to the right and the tight end is coming down inside to the Will linebacker and the backside guard and tackle are doubling to no one. Frontside guard and center double EASILY up to the middle linebacker who is removed. It is run game paradise on the backside.

From a passing perspective, you now have lienbackers trying to cover wide receivers. Hundreds of route combos to work out here. My favs:

-Z Curl, Y Out (turn up if not open), H post. The H holds the linebacker off of the curl and the out and up takes the top off of the safety as does the post. The curl is easy pickings. :mario2:

- Post and corner games with two combos of receivers. Crossing and overlapping the routes and getting to the zones. We do NONE of this. Cover 2 does not like trips and does not like overlapping routes. It requires the defense to be very disciplined in their drops.

2. The use of motion gives you advantages at the point of attack and requires the Cover 2 to convert. Most Cover 2 teams will check to Cover 3 or four to the trips side or the motion to trips. If you motion to trips, you get advantages in four ways.

+First, the defense is often slow to rotate and out of position.
+Second, the defense blows a check and somebody misses thier assignment.
+Third, the defender is moving out to the motion and you run a guy under him. Now he has to stop and reverse field instead of covering the route from a standstill. Much more difficult.
+Fourth, it gives you advantages in the run game by forcing the defense to rotate and show their hand.

We do too much standing around and come out in too many vanilla, balanced sets. You have to incorporate more unbalanced sets because you will never beat the Cover 2 attacking it with balanced sets. The only team that can really do that is Indy and they do it because their tight end is more like a wide receiver and Manning has six days to throw.

3. To go vertical, you must develop a vertical passing game without resorting to play action. Play action actually compromises your protection. If a team is blitzing on a play action, the defense essentially is dictating the quick throw right now or it is a sack.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I do not want this to be a Carr or anti-Carr thread. Because my take on Carr is that I have seen him improve and make better decisions. I really can't judge the guy based on some of the things I seen him deal with this season. There is not a quarterback in the NFL who is going to be competent on 3rd and 5 or more when he comes out of the huddle looking at two tight ends, a fullback, a tailback and one wide receiver. It is silly and frustrating to watch.


I will end with this thought... I know a number of offensive coordinators on the college and professional level. It boggles my mind to see the number of plays that they put in their playbooks. When it come right down to it, they do not get to half of them in a game. There is something to be said for simplifying things and running your good stuff. Most pass games in the NFL are on a tags. Meaning, when we run a play at our place we call it
Trips Rt. 90 Curl.
All the receivers know their routes and the QB knows his defender to throw off of. In the NFL, that same call is
Trips Right Montana BOSS Z4 Razor Y Angle S Jet
Same play. You tell me. Can you see where a QB might be in a quandry when trying to decipher where his read lies? Can you see the ridiculous nature of this when you call Trips Right Ohio Dance Z4 Rip Y Stay S Jet?
In this second play, the back is not staying in to block, he is taking the place of the second receiver who is now running his Rip route.

Definitely need to simplify and bring in the third receiver. Kevin Walter is no dud. I would rather see him than Jamel Cook.

Impressive. If it's so hard to beat how did Sage make it look so easy? I do agree with your points about not respecting the run and all but the thing Carr does is take being safe to ridiculous extremes. He's the anti-Farve. I like someone in the middle.

coachdent
11-30-2006, 01:43 PM
Impressive. If it's so hard to beat how did Sage make it look so easy? I do agree with your points about not respecting the run and all but the thing Carr does is take being safe to ridiculous extremes. He's the anti-Farve. I like someone in the middle.


If you have a copy of Sage's game, one of the things that is extremely apparent to me is that they did exactly what I have been screaming for and we moved the ball. When Sage was in the game, we went one back, we went three wide. It was like a ray of hope and sunshine! EVERYTHING changed. Before that game, we had not even employed an empty set. After that game, we went empty against the New York Giants.

Carr has been a victim of the system. He has improved this year and has been extremely efficient. But too many fans look past the constraints and shackles of the system and place too much blame on Carr.

thunderkyss
11-30-2006, 03:21 PM
If you have a copy of Sage's game, one of the things that is extremely apparent to me is that they did exactly what I have been screaming for and we moved the ball. When Sage was in the game, we went one back, we went three wide. It was like a ray of hope and sunshine! EVERYTHING changed. Before that game, we had not even employed an empty set. After that game, we went empty against the New York Giants.

Carr has been a victim of the system. He has improved this year and has been extremely efficient. But too many fans look past the constraints and shackles of the system and place too much blame on Carr.

I know sometimes it seems like I put to much blame on Carr.... which is odd, because I've never stated that we lost any game because of Carr & Carr alone. I don't feel that way either.

BUt you've just pointed out two different approaches we've taken, with two different QBs under center.

Do you think it is QB related, or it was time in the second half of the Titans game?? Actually, the same thing happened two weeks before in Dallas.

Honoring Earl 34
11-30-2006, 03:34 PM
If you have a copy of Sage's game, one of the things that is extremely apparent to me is that they did exactly what I have been screaming for and we moved the ball. When Sage was in the game, we went one back, we went three wide. It was like a ray of hope and sunshine! EVERYTHING changed. Before that game, we had not even employed an empty set. After that game, we went empty against the New York Giants.

Carr has been a victim of the system. He has improved this year and has been extremely efficient. But too many fans look past the constraints and shackles of the system and place too much blame on Carr.

Then its coaching ... for only giving Sage the plays that work , solved . Next Lee Harvey Oswald might have done it himself .

Mr teX
12-01-2006, 11:07 AM
I would say so. You just need those big plays to get your batteries recharged and excited. It just seems so futile when you know you have to string together 12 plays to score. A lot of pressure. One of the reasons Brian Billick looked so good in Minnesota is that he had Randy Moss to take it 65 yards to the house on second down. Coordinators become gurus throwing in those 2 play 65 yard TD drives! Would be nice to see.

You don't need any proof other than the looking at the texans wins thus far, Especially in the 2 jags wins. you can probably go & count the 5 big plays of 20 yds or more in each.

tsip
12-01-2006, 11:51 AM
I know sometimes it seems like I put to much blame on Carr.... which is odd, because I've never stated that we lost any game because of Carr & Carr alone. I don't feel that way either.

BUt you've just pointed out two different approaches we've taken, with two different QBs under center.

Do you think it is QB related, or it was time in the second half of the Titans game?? Actually, the same thing happened two weeks before in Dallas.

TK, I think the problem is QB related, as Carr can not 'work' the pocket and avoid the rush without the extra TE and RB help. Yet, even with the extra protection, Carr does not throw down field...JMO, but we have a 'catch-22' situation. If we put more rec's in the pattern, Carr can't get the ball to them because of protection. If we give Carr protection, he does not have enough options to get the ball down the field.

Bottom line, we have a 'egg or chicken' dilema. What will happen first- a) we get a 'verticle' passing game with Carr or b) Kubiak tries someone else under ctr..............

SESupergenius
12-01-2006, 11:53 AM
TK, I think the problem is QB related, as Carr can not 'work' the pocket and avoid the rush without the extra TE and RB help. Yet, even with the extra protection, Carr does not throw down field...JMO, but we have a 'catch-22' situation. If we put more rec's in the pattern, Carr can't get the ball to them because of protection. If we give Carr protection, he does not have enough options to get the ball down the field.

Bottom line, we have a 'egg or chicken' dilema. What will happen first- a) we get a 'verticle' passing game with Carr or b) Kubiak tries someone else under ctr..............

Work the pocket? He's done a great job of doing that this year. He's avoided many sacks and is no where near the level of last year.

tsip
12-01-2006, 12:04 PM
"I would say so. You just need those big plays to get your batteries recharged and excited. It just seems so futile when you know you have to string together 12 plays to score. A lot of pressure. One of the reasons Brian Billick looked so good in Minnesota is that he had Randy Moss to take it 65 yards to the house on second down. Coordinators become gurus throwing in those 2 play 65 yard TD drives! Would be nice to see."

This sounds good and is suppose to be part of the WCO, but we seem to want our big gains off of 'yac' only. Like Capers, Kubiak seems to be focused on 'TOP' big time, and this is seen with his drives that 'eat' up clock and get no points. However, even worse in some games, are the 3 and outs which accomplish nothing--no points, no top, no rest for the defense,etc.

Since our inception, 2 of our biggest problems have been game planning/adjustments to game plan and scoring points. With Kubiak, I assumed we'd be 'mucho' improved in these areas but--you know what they say about assumming...

Honoring Earl 34
12-01-2006, 12:05 PM
I like seeing Tony Romo working the pocket ( using an uncanny feel for it ) while looking down the field its amazing . His feet seem farely close together kinda like he's dancing around with his arm up and ready to fire .

tsip
12-01-2006, 12:08 PM
Work the pocket? He's done a great job of doing that this year. He's avoided many sacks and is no where near the level of last year.

...yeah, as long as it's a 3 step drop--seldom do we see Carr in the pocket for any length of time or even stepping up--Kubiak has him on a 'very' short leash

tsip
12-01-2006, 12:11 PM
I like seeing Tony Romo working the pocket ( using an uncanny feel for it ) while looking down the field its amazing . His feet seem farely close together kinda like he's dancing around with his arm up and ready to fire .

...agree!...looked very calm, slowly moved, kept his eyes down field--a lot like Brady...

Honoring Earl 34
12-01-2006, 12:26 PM
I way be wrong and forgive me for saying this but Carr looks like he straddles a horse and his arm's low . You can't dance like that ... did'nt he watch Emmitt .

real
12-01-2006, 12:30 PM
The only pocket Carr has command of is on his Levis

HOU-TEX
12-01-2006, 12:35 PM
The only pocket Carr has command of is on his Levis

And his jorts. lol

texan's blue
12-01-2006, 01:17 PM
Now, I'm not suggesting running this offense when it gets to 3rd & 8. I'm talking about sending the backs out on 1st down, rather than the unproductive runs up the middle. The Texans don't have the back to make that work. And the beauty of the split backfield is that it would make the defense hesitant to blitz. If they do, the backs could be there to pick it up or release into the pattern, depending on where the blitz is coming from. The split backfield gives a team the benefits of pass protection, but also allows the possibility of 5 receivers into the pattern.

I think this offense could work for the Texans because both Lundy and Cook are good receivers. Yes, I saw the Cook fumbles. But, I think they are anomalies and Cook would be a better ball carrier with more touches. Football is like a game of chess in some ways. By throwing to the backs more, the LBs must come up. This allows the WRs to make plays in the zone gaps. When the safeties come up to fill those gaps, the double move free the WRs downfield. The offense dictates to the defense, unlike what we've seen with the Texans offense the past 5 seasons.

Exactly... I don't see why running up the middle seems to be the only answer for our Texans' coaches... put our backs out in 1st and 2nd down situations especially when the run obviously isn't working. I know that we have to try to establish the run but at some point in the game you have to adjust to what the defense is giving you. And why even try play action on 3rd and long if you haven't established an effective run game????????? :francis:

And what I love even more is when we actually try to run on 3rd and long when the run hasn't worked all day... do they really think that the defense is going to fall for it THIS TIME????

Runner
12-01-2006, 01:48 PM
Work the pocket? He's done a great job of doing that this year. He's avoided many sacks and is no where near the level of last year.

Pocket? More like a glove. As in fits like a glove.

I don't think he works it so much as gets rid of the ball before the "pocket" works him.

Hulk75
12-01-2006, 01:52 PM
If you have a copy of Sage's game, one of the things that is extremely apparent to me is that they did exactly what I have been screaming for and we moved the ball. When Sage was in the game, we went one back, we went three wide. It was like a ray of hope and sunshine! EVERYTHING changed. Before that game, we had not even employed an empty set. After that game, we went empty against the New York Giants.

Carr has been a victim of the system. He has improved this year and has been extremely efficient. But too many fans look past the constraints and shackles of the system and place too much blame on Carr.

I think you need to right that to the paper and then send an email to 610 about it, cause all they do is bash one guy all day.

I think the system would work even better if our Running game became good, not great but just good right now.

PS- I heard Lamont Jordan and Robert Gallery are out.

Texan Gal 312
12-01-2006, 02:51 PM
...agree!...looked very calm, slowly moved, kept his eyes down field--a lot like Brady...

And everybody thought the same thing about some guy name Roethlisberger last year - I guess he forget how to do this when he had the motorcycle wreck.

thunderkyss
12-01-2006, 04:03 PM
Exactly... I don't see why running up the middle seems to be the only answer for our Texans' coaches... put our backs out in 1st and 2nd down situations especially when the run obviously isn't working. I know that we have to try to establish the run but at some point in the game you have to adjust to what the defense is giving you. And why even try play action on 3rd and long if you haven't established an effective run game????????? :francis:

When we throw the ball 54 times in a game, and run the ball 13 times, then that is exactly what happened.

It didn't work either.

And what I love even more is when we actually try to run on 3rd and long when the run hasn't worked all day... do they really think that the defense is going to fall for it THIS TIME????


Remember when we were stuffing Clinton Portis & the Washington Redskins?? Then they were getting set to make a field goal....... it was third down...... we were expecting Pass......... Portis took it to the house??

It happens all the time.

dbspi
12-01-2006, 06:27 PM
The base Cover 2 with a 4-3 front. The "Tampa 2". The defense that has


This is the common adjustment to trips for Cover 2. Advantage? Definitely Offense! What this set does is moves a linebacker out of the box and into coverage. The Sam (S) must walk out on #2 (Y) to respect the pass. The best run stopper, Mike (M), must now also be a two way player and be aware of Wr #3 (H). The third MAJOR problem with the defense is that you now have your Will linebacker (W) or the weakest linebacker of the bunch in a very strong location. He has a tight end to his side and an uncovered lineman. This is what my team refers to as "insert, thrust... repeat". You wear out that left side with middle zone. The corner sticks his nose into the action and you leak the tight end out into the flat. You run inside zone to the right and the tight end is coming down inside to the Will linebacker and the backside guard and tackle are doubling to no one. Frontside guard and center double EASILY up to the middle linebacker who is removed. It is run game paradise on the backside.

From a passing perspective, you now have lienbackers trying to cover wide receivers. Hundreds of route combos to work out here. My favs:

-Z Curl, Y Out (turn up if not open), H post. The H holds the linebacker off of the curl and the out and up takes the top off of the safety as does the post. The curl is easy pickings. :mario2:

- Post and corner games with two combos of receivers. Crossing and overlapping the routes and getting to the zones. We do NONE of this. Cover 2 does not like trips and does not like overlapping routes. It requires the defense to be very disciplined in their drops.

2. The use of motion gives you advantages at the point of attack and requires the Cover 2 to convert. Most Cover 2 teams will check to Cover 3 or four to the trips side or the motion to trips. If you motion to trips, you get advantages in four ways.

+First, the defense is often slow to rotate and out of position.
+Second, the defense blows a check and somebody misses thier assignment.
+Third, the defender is moving out to the motion and you run a guy under him. Now he has to stop and reverse field instead of covering the route from a standstill. Much more difficult.
+Fourth, it gives you advantages in the run game by forcing the defense to rotate and show their hand.

We do too much standing around and come out in too many vanilla, balanced sets. You have to incorporate more unbalanced sets because you will never beat the Cover 2 attacking it with balanced sets. The only team that can really do that is Indy and they do it because their tight end is more like a wide receiver and Manning has six days to throw.

3. To go vertical, you must develop a vertical passing game without resorting to play action. Play action actually compromises your protection. If a team is blitzing on a play action, the defense essentially is dictating the quick throw right now or it is a sack.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I do not want this to be a Carr or anti-Carr thread. Because my take on Carr is that I have seen him improve and make better decisions. I really can't judge the guy based on some of the things I seen him deal with this season. There is not a quarterback in the NFL who is going to be competent on 3rd and 5 or more when he comes out of the huddle looking at two tight ends, a fullback, a tailback and one wide receiver. It is silly and frustrating to watch.


I will end with this thought... I know a number of offensive coordinators on the college and professional level. It boggles my mind to see the number of plays that they put in their playbooks. When it come right down to it, they do not get to half of them in a game. There is something to be said for simplifying things and running your good stuff. Most pass games in the NFL are on a tags. Meaning, when we run a play at our place we call it
Trips Rt. 90 Curl.
All the receivers know their routes and the QB knows his defender to throw off of. In the NFL, that same call is
Trips Right Montana BOSS Z4 Razor Y Angle S Jet
Same play. You tell me. Can you see where a QB might be in a quandry when trying to decipher where his read lies? Can you see the ridiculous nature of this when you call Trips Right Ohio Dance Z4 Rip Y Stay S Jet?
In this second play, the back is not staying in to block, he is taking the place of the second receiver who is now running his Rip route.

Definitely need to simplify and bring in the third receiver. Kevin Walter is no dud. I would rather see him than Jamel Cook.
---------------------------------


There are many ways to exploit the cover two. To keep it short in order to beat the cover two you have to exploit the players covering each zone. Releasing 2 or three receivers at a time will never be effective if they don't focus on certain zones. The way we've run our defense we've usually had two receivers going deep the problem is that there are four defenders covering these zones and since we don't send a third receiver into deep routes defenders have an easier time of rolling coverage to the zones the receivers are covering. If we had a slot receiver or TE run a deeper route to occupy a deep zone that had to be accounted for by a safety we would have one of the other two receivers on one on one match-ups.


I think it boils down to our coaches not willing to do these things. I'm hard pressed to think that they don't know how to handle this defense when they came in with the knowledge of facing Dungy's defense and not having a plan on beating it. If you notice late in the game we've had success against these defenses, but the coaches got to do this throughout the game not once we've fallen behind. The five wide sets really exploit this cover, but you don't see this as much as you should from our team.


I really don't want to get into berating the coaches because to be honest they're rookies as well. However alot of what ails this team still lies at their feet. I don't like how conservative they can get and I don't approve of everything they do, however considering they are rookies I gotta hope that they can learn from their mistakes and correct them before the end of the season. I say give them time because sometimes when your so engrossed with something it can be hard to see what the dilemma is, hopefully coach K will get it figured out real soon.

sleepwalker
12-02-2006, 04:48 AM
The way you beat cover two, which you stated, is the deep middle, corner routes, and crossing routes...... but in order for those to have the desired affect you must be able to protect a 5 or 7 step drop which we cannot...... that is the reason the sck numbers are down and the dump offs are up. 3 steps drops, 1 2 3 throw, even if that means check down get the ball out.



Exactly...People refuse to understand that the whole problem is that our OL is just plain terrible and has been since the beginning...I think Kubiak is doing exactly what he has to do in this situation...Get rid of the ball quick and see if our guys can make a play after that.

Teams are getting pressure on us with 3 and 4 OL guys...I don't expect to see many 5 or 7 step drops the rest of this year for Carr.

I would like to try and put a positive spin on the short passing game: Clock control and moving the chains slowly is a good way to keep QB's like Manning off the field.

run-david-run
12-02-2006, 03:03 PM
There was one play in the Jets game where they rushed 4 guys on 3rd down. At the end of the play, all four Jet D-lineman where pilled on top of Carr. Every single one beat our O-lineman, it was a virtual jailbreak. That is our problem.