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View Full Version : GAME PLANNING-Please Explain


NATHANHALE
11-27-2006, 01:19 PM
First, since 2004 (2nd half after Carr's great first half) when the the down hill spiral of Caper's Texans demise started, we've been told that our 'vertical' passing game went into the 'dumpster' because opponents began 'game planning' against us with 'cover 2.' Second, when Kubiak was asked on his AM Radio Show on 11/27, how do you counter the cover2?--his answer was by running the ball.......

I'm confused. We lacked a lot of things under Capers but we had a running game. Many posters-to this day-still can not understand what happened in mid 2004 when the Texans went from becoming a 'winning' team to falling back to a loser that year, with the final debacle loss that year to the worse team in the NFL, the Browns. Why?,,,the Cover 2.

OK, so here's the confusion. Kubiak says we can't have a vertical passing attack because we don't have a rushing attack that gets respect. And, we can't sustain 12-15 play drives with a short passing game.

Like in '04 when we had a rushing attack, we've had games in '06--though not many--when we were able to run but still did not throw the ball down field...

Every week, teams come up with ways to 'game plan' against us that allow them to 'exploit' our weaknesses and 'minimize' our strengths--right?...so why can't we do the same to them?

IMO, we have some 'very good' foot ball minds on this board--posters who can offer 'viable' reasons for why things have happened and alternatives to change/improve those things. JMO, but our 'biggest' problem as a team is scoring points. And to take this thought further, this problem is compounded by our 'weak' game planning, including half time adjustments that leave us with 'horrible' results in the 3rd qtr. Too, most of our 'great' passing stats have come from 'garbage time' in the 4th qtr when the game has already been decided...

Kubiak is suppose to be an 'offensive guru,' a genius-if you will. I know we have personnel 'short comings' and injuries-so does every other team-but why aren't we getting/seeing the benefits of Kubiak's years of experience? Why is he not coming up with 'creative' game plans that exploit the good/bad of 'us versus them?'

IMO, a team doesn't just beat you because of 'better' players--this is where 'upsets' come into play--but also by 'effective' game planning...and, yes, by execution of that game plan. But, our game planning IMO needs some "nuts and bolts"...aka, some 'fire power,' some creativity...whatever it takes to win is kind of hollow if there 'ain't no ammo in the gun' or 'gas in the tank.' JMO, but we've been out of 'gas' and 'bullets' for too long.........:brickwall :yahoo: :brickwall :yahoo:

edo783
11-27-2006, 04:05 PM
Let's see, on a good day a WR can get 40 yards in ~4.3 seconds without pads on. Probably about 4.6 with them on. That's on a good day and with a guy with AJs speed. If you have line that can only be counted on to hold guys out for 2-2.5 seconds that says the max that the WR can get is ~20 yards. Now, add in a chuck at the line a zig or two in the route and your down to 10-15 yards MAX and much less for guys that aren't as fast as AJ. OK, now, hold in 1-2 guys for additional blocking at the LOS so that you can consistantly get that 2-2.5 seconds. That means we have 2-3 guys in the pattern. Those 2-3 guys are typically being covered by 4-6 guys by the defense. Pretty much doubled up all around. I saw more than one play yesterday that even OD was double covered. All of that makes it tough to get open. What you get are short routes and quick dump offs because the O-line can't be counted on to hold the defensive players out. Add to that a running game that is one in name only and a non-exsistant seconday and it makes for what we have....a 3-8 team.

tsip
11-27-2006, 05:18 PM
OK. Kubiak pretty much kept the same OL, so I guess he wasn't expecting to do much this year--heck, he can't even install schemes, since he has no way to use a verticle pasing game--makes a person wonder why he chamged the WR's since he can't get anything but dump-offs to them...heck, we oughtta just raise the surrender flag and be done with ---can't run, can't throw down field and-now- Kubiak says we can't sustain drives with a short passing game!!!!!!!!!!!!!....why do we bother????

hollywood_texan
11-27-2006, 06:30 PM
JMO, but our 'biggest' problem as a team is scoring points.

Totally agree with you, the Texans on average since 2002, average about 16 points a game over about any time period you want to slice it up to. Bottom line, it is tough to win NFL games with points like that unless you have a real strong defense. Interestingly, the best year the Texans had was 2004, which was probably one of the better years defensively.

As to your question about throwing downfield, you need a QB that can make tough throws and quality receivers that can make tough catches. Before I get deeper into that, someone mentioned earlier that if your QB doesn't have enough time to throw deep passes because of offensive line problems, you can't throw downfield. That really doesn't tell the whole story. If a defense isn't concerned about the deep ball, it isn't going to matter the players on your offensive line. Ask yourself this question on this topic, is it easier for an All-Pro offensive line to make a marginal QB look good or an All-Pro QB make an offensive line look good? The latter is easier to achieve in today's NFL. Besides, with 32 teams in the league, a salary cap, and free agency, a team isn't going to be able to stack marquee players on the offensive line. At some point a rookie or free agent will be playing on the offensive line. Look around the league and you will see that.

The single most important ingredient to an NFL team on offense is the QB. That is why he is paid the most and why Kubiak said "As David Carr goes, so does the Texans." To be successful in the NFL, you need to be able to succeed with less, not more!

As for throwing downfield, I don't see Carr throwing over zone coverage down the deep middle part of the field, preferably between the hashes. When he does try it, the linebacker usually tips the ball for an incompletion. IMO, that is the single biggest reason why the Texans offense has problems. Defenses don't have to cover the entire part of the field, all they have to do is keep receivers in front of them because the short passes will be taken if given and bring the safeties on run support because you don't have to worry about the deep middle parts of the field.

A successful offense is a ying and yang thing. Over and over, we hear if you can't run, you can't pass. But, if defenses doen't think you can pass, what are they going to do, stop the other facet of your offense, which is the run.

The problems on offense rest solely on Kubiak and Carr. I am amazed that so many people expect the offensive line to provide perfect protection, running backs have 100 yard games with no fumbles, wide receivers can't drop one ball, and we can't expect David Carr take overall responsibility for the offense.

axman40
11-27-2006, 06:31 PM
We could sustain drives with short passes if our WR & TE run past the first down marker ie say 3&4 they run their routes 5+ yards = 1st Down!

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/7/78/Captainobvious.jpg

:cowboy1:

eriadoc
11-27-2006, 07:04 PM
Let's see, on a good day a WR can get 40 yards in ~4.3 seconds without pads on. Probably about 4.6 with them on. That's on a good day and with a guy with AJs speed. If you have line that can only be counted on to hold guys out for 2-2.5 seconds that says the max that the WR can get is ~20 yards. Now, add in a chuck at the line a zig or two in the route and your down to 10-15 yards MAX and much less for guys that aren't as fast as AJ. OK, now, hold in 1-2 guys for additional blocking at the LOS so that you can consistantly get that 2-2.5 seconds. That means we have 2-3 guys in the pattern. Those 2-3 guys are typically being covered by 4-6 guys by the defense. Pretty much doubled up all around. I saw more than one play yesterday that even OD was double covered. All of that makes it tough to get open. What you get are short routes and quick dump offs because the O-line can't be counted on to hold the defensive players out. Add to that a running game that is one in name only and a non-exsistant seconday and it makes for what we have....a 3-8 team.

Ding ding ding! we have a winner! The offensive line play trickles down through everything. On this team's best days, the O-line is inconsistent and therefore, the offense is inconsistent. On its worst days ... well, we won't go there.

Offensive line > all else on offense.

eriadoc
11-27-2006, 07:07 PM
The problems on offense rest solely on Kubiak and Carr. I am amazed that so many people expect the offensive line to provide perfect protection, running backs have 100 yard games with no fumbles, wide receivers can't drop one ball, and we can't expect David Carr take overall responsibility for the offense.

No one expects the O-line to provide perfect protection. Providing a solid pocket with consistency would be good, however. There might be four other teams in the NFL with lines as bad as ours and their records all reflect it.

hollywood_texan
11-27-2006, 07:17 PM
Ding ding ding! we have a winner! The offensive line play trickles down through everything. On this team's best days, the O-line is inconsistent and therefore, the offense is inconsistent. On its worst days ... well, we won't go there.

Offensive line > all else on offense.

I think you guys are wrong!!!

If the offensive line was more important, then it wouldn't matter who is the quarterback on any team, including David Carr!!!

To have an effective pass play the following things have to be done effectively in order:

1. Good playcalling
2. QB makes correct reads
3. Receiver runs correct route
4. Offensive line provides protection
5. QB throws to open receiver and at the right spot
6. Receiver catches the ball

As you can see the offensive line has very little direct impact on throwing the football. Just because they do their job effectively doesn't guarantee success!

The way you guys are talking and slapping each other on the back, you really don't need a QB or WR. Yet, the QB position is the highest paid position in the league. How do you explain that?

The two most important ingredients to a successful offense in today's NFL with free agency and a salary cap, is the head coach and QB. The better those two are, the easier it is to hide the other warts on the team. If it is the other way around, it is very hard to hide warts of a QB or head coach, which describes the Texans and the Raiders!

hollywood_texan
11-27-2006, 07:18 PM
No one expects the O-line to provide perfect protection. Providing a solid pocket with consistency would be good, however. There might be four other teams in the NFL with lines as bad as ours and their records all reflect it.

No offensive line provides perfect protection and never will. That is why pocket presence is so important. A quarterback's play is a matter of inches and fractions of a second.

Name the four teams that are so bad, and let's inspect who the QB's are?

Deal?

edo783
11-27-2006, 07:33 PM
I think you guys are wrong!!!

If the offensive line was more important, then it wouldn't matter who is the quarterback on any team, including David Carr!!!

To have an effective pass play the following things have to be done effectively in order:

1. Good playcalling
2. QB makes correct reads
3. Receiver runs correct route
4. Offensive line provides protection
5. QB throws to open receiver and at the right spot
6. Receiver catches the ball

As you can see the offensive line has very little direct impact on throwing the football. Just because they do their job effectively doesn't guarantee success!

The way you guys are talking and slapping each other on the back, you really don't need a QB or WR. Yet, the QB position is the highest paid position in the league. How do you explain that?

The two most important ingredients to a successful offense in today's NFL with free agency and a salary cap, is the head coach and QB. The better those two are, the easier it is to hide the other warts on the team. If it is the other way around, it is very hard to hide warts of a QB or head coach, which describes the Texans and the Raiders!

And not one bit of that works if the O-line can't keep anyone out long enough for anything to develope. It wont matter what the play calling is, who the QB is (see Manning last year) how good the recievers. Not one bit will work if the line doesn't. However, with a good real line, just about any of it will work regardless of the calls or who is pulling the trigger or who is running routes.

hollywood_texan
11-27-2006, 07:43 PM
And not one bit of that works if the O-line can't keep anyone out long enough for anything to develope. It wont matter what the play calling is, who the QB is (see Manning last year) how good the recievers. Not one bit will work if the line doesn't. However, with a good real line, just about any of it will work regardless of the calls or who is pulling the trigger or who is running routes.

Obvisouly, there needs to be protection, but there is a hierachy of needs.

But, let's assume you are right, then we should go cheap on the head coach, QB, wide recievers, and we don't even need a running game. We should just plow every dollar into the offensive line because if you have that everything will work. Am I understanding you correctly?

Another question, why do we need David Carr at his current contract level if as you put it "with a good real line, just about any of it will work regardless of the calls or who is pulling the trigger or who is running routes." It seems that Carr is grossly overpaid! Actually, we don't need him!

The most important thing about passing the passing the football is getting the ball downfield. Only one guy on the offensive line touches the ball and that is only the center during the snap. You see my point?

The offensive line is important, but it isn't the be all end all. A smart QB with great pocket presence can make a marginal line look pretty good. But a poor QB with a great line probably won't get the job done.

Besides, with 32 teams, a salary cap, and free agency, no team is going to be able to stack talent on the offensive line or at any position for that matter.

You guys are just crazy!

ronaldod1
11-27-2006, 07:45 PM
No offensive line provides perfect protection and never will. That is why pocket presence is so important. A quarterback's play is a matter of inches and fractions of a second.

Name the four teams that are so bad, and let's inspect who the QB's are?

Deal?


go look at the elite QBs in the league and then look at how great their o lines are. then, look at a game in which the opposing defense effectively pressures that QB, you'll find more often than not that the QB has what is considered a terrible game. Example: Patriots blitz schemes have effectively applied pressure to Peyton manning and his worst games as a pro have come in those games.

when a quarterback is "making his reads" and when a WR is "running his correct routes" they have to be supremely confident that they will have the appropriate amount of time to do so. They can't be second guessing whether or not their offensive line will allow them the time to properly execute. can you imagine a scenario in which the skill players on offense firmly believe on every play they won't have time to their job. I can....it's the Houston Texans.

there is a minimum requirement for execution and 2 seconds in the pocket does not meet that requirement.

ronaldod1
11-27-2006, 07:53 PM
Seattle, Pitt, NE, Indy, Denver, Chi, cincinatti

all playoff teams last year. if you compiled a list of the top ten o lines in football all of those teams would make the list. there is a direct correlation between controlling the line of scrimmage and success as a football team

hollywood_texan
11-27-2006, 07:58 PM
go look at the elite QBs in the league and then look at how great their o lines are. then, look at a game in which the opposing defense effectively pressures that QB, you'll find more often than not that the QB has what is considered a terrible game. Example: Patriots blitz schemes have effectively applied pressure to Peyton manning and his worst games as a pro have come in those games.

when a quarterback is "making his reads" and when a WR is "running his correct routes" they have to be supremely confident that they will have the appropriate amount of time to do so. They can't be second guessing whether or not their offensive line will allow them the time to properly execute. can you imagine a scenario in which the skill players on offense firmly believe on every play they won't have time to their job. I can....it's the Houston Texans.

there is a minimum requirement for execution and 2 seconds in the pocket does not meet that requirement.

You didn't name the 4 worst teams to evaulate the QB.

But, I will follow you in the direction you want to go.

So, let's talk about Manning, who you state as an example.

I believe it is safe to assume you are saying Manning is really more of product of the offensive line than his play. Manning has been in the league for 9 years, and I am sure he has had many guys block for him over that time. And I am also very sure not all of those guys have been excellent players. Probably a few have cut or released by the Colts. Yet, year after year the Colts do well. But, it has nothing to do with Manning and the percise route running of Harrison and Wayne coupled with great play calling? No, it is all about the offensive line? Is that what you are saying.

hollywood_texan
11-27-2006, 08:06 PM
Seattle, Pitt, NE, Indy, Denver, Chi, cincinatti

all playoff teams last year. if you compiled a list of the top ten o lines in football all of those teams would make the list. there is a direct correlation between controlling the line of scrimmage and success as a football team

I thought we were going to discuss the 4 worst teams?

Okay, I'll play...

You can take New England, Indy, and Cincinatti out of the list. Those teams have top tier QBs, which is my point.

Seattle played in a weak division last year and had an easy schedule. Take them off the list. Besides, they lost there main offensive line guy because of the salary cap and free agency, which is my point. You are not going to be able to stack talent. You have to be to succeed with less.

Chicago, with that defense, any QB can make the playoffs in that division while playing in the NFC. Off the list for now!

So that leaves Denver and Pittsburgh. You may have a little bit of point on those two. We'll see what happens with Jake benched. As for Big Ben, I think his motorcycle accident and surgery have seriously affected him and his decision making. Take Big Ben off the list!

So that leaves Denver as a maybe? We'll have to see how things fare. But, keep this in mind, Shannan didn't win his first playoff game without Elway until last year? Why do you think it took so long? I guess he needed to improve the offensive line with your rationale?

ronaldod1
11-27-2006, 08:14 PM
take a look at peyton's career stats. he has been sacked more than 25 times in ONE season of his career. he hasn't had a season in the past four or five years where he has been sacked 20 times. and we all know that he has ZERO mobility. no amount of "pocket awareness" can account for the fact that he plays upright all the time.

The point is.....Peyton Manning does not ever ever ever think twice about whether or not he will have the time he needs to execute a play. and his receivers can run those beautiful routes knowing full well their QB is standing back there waiting to fire it in there. when teams blitz, their backs and tight ends pick it up no problem, but when they don't he becomes as pedestrian as the next guy.

I know full well Manning is heads and shoulders above any other QB, but my point is he couldn't operate anywhere near the level he does if the players in front of him dont' meet the minimum requirement which is to provide him, at the very least, enough time for him to throw the ball to the intended receiver.

Carr and his wideouts have no idea from one play to the next whether or not that silk curtain up front will hold or the rookie RB will pick up his assignment etc. Even in games where the line plays well, they're not to be trusted. The problem is then compounded by opposing defensive coordinators realizing that the texans can't pick up a blitz, so they bring everything they got, put a spotter on the safety valve and there is no way out of it for the texans.

hollywood_texan
11-27-2006, 08:32 PM
take a look at peyton's career stats. he has been sacked more than 25 times in ONE season of his career. he hasn't had a season in the past four or five years where he has been sacked 20 times. and we all know that he has ZERO mobility. no amount of "pocket awareness" can account for the fact that he plays upright all the time.

The point is.....Peyton Manning does not ever ever ever think twice about whether or not he will have the time he needs to execute a play. and his receivers can run those beautiful routes knowing full well their QB is standing back there waiting to fire it in there. when teams blitz, their backs and tight ends pick it up no problem, but when they don't he becomes as pedestrian as the next guy.

I know full well Manning is heads and shoulders above any other QB, but my point is he couldn't operate anywhere near the level he does if the players in front of him dont' meet the minimum requirement which is to provide him, at the very least, enough time for him to throw the ball to the intended receiver.

Carr and his wideouts have no idea from one play to the next whether or not that silk curtain up front will hold or the rookie RB will pick up his assignment etc. Even in games where the line plays well, they're not to be trusted. The problem is then compounded by opposing defensive coordinators realizing that the texans can't pick up a blitz, so they bring everything they got, put a spotter on the safety valve and there is no way out of it for the texans.

Mobility and pocket awareness are not related. Just because a guy has mobility, does not mean he has pocket awareness, and vice versa.

Do you think it is the same guys over the past few years that have blocked for Peyton Manning? Can you even name those guys? Maybe even a rookie has blocked for him.

I am going to go through the Indy roster over the past few years and see who has blocked for him. I am sure there have been several changes and there are probably some dubious suspects have played there as well as lineman.

My point is Peyton Manning is more important than than any offensive lineman I can think of. Do you think otherwise?

If Manning isn't that important, why not get rid of him, save money, and let the offensive line prove they are the reason.

Hopefully you are beginning to see my point.

hollywood_texan
11-27-2006, 09:11 PM
Even when the offense is doing well the QB does horrible. How about the Giants game for example? The offensive line did adequate they allowed no sacks, but the problem was we still couldn't score any points. Was that the offensive line's fault? it was the QB fault for not throwing to his wide recievers.

Great example.

The Buffalo game is good example too. The offense still couldn't score points in the second half and only got 41 yards and one 1st down in the 4th quarter. The running game was on fire and Carr was chasing the consecutive completion percentage in the 4th quarter, but it really was meaningless.

Honoring Earl 34
11-27-2006, 10:12 PM
The two best OL last year were the Seahawhs and Steelers . They both had average QBs and a good running game . Anyone know what G Steve Hutchinson signed for this offseason ? You can't pay everyone .

The Colts OL is not considered elite ... Manning does'nt hold the ball , just like Marino he knows where he wants to go and what plan b is .

phan1
11-28-2006, 04:35 AM
After the last two losses, is anyone else becoming unimpressed with Kubiak? The 3rd and two against the Bills was a forgivable mistake. He's a 1st year head coach, and you can see how he wants the ball in Carr's hands to get the win.

But after the loss against the Jets, it seems that our team is too dependent on a running game that isn't very good. I'm sorry, but if it isn't working, it isn't working! Do something else! You're not in Denver anymore; you can't count on a running game week in and week out. I thought you were running a WCO!

dbspi
11-28-2006, 06:33 AM
I think Kubiak's arrogance (or faith) in his system is what got the Texans so bad this year.

He thought it would be like Denver, where he could make mediocre talent at RB studs. It sure hasn't worked out that way, but Denver hasn't exactly been a rushing monster this year either. No running game has doomed Carr

Carr is a game manager, not a gamebreaker. Nothing wrong with that, but if you don't have any runners and you have a piss poor D, a game manager at QB won't get it done.

If you want a team that blows other teams out of the water with passing, Carr is not the guy for that job. Want a running team that plays ball control with a great D, that is a different story.

So, The Texans are stuck at a place right now where they don't have the D or RB talent to be a ball control club, and don't have the QB or WR talent to throw it all over the field.

The Falcons are kind of in the same boat.

So, either upgrade the RBs and D or get a new QB and WR.

thunderkyss
11-28-2006, 09:14 AM
I think Kubiak's arrogance (or faith) in his system is what got the Texans so bad this year.

He thought it would be like Denver, where he could make mediocre talent at RB studs. It sure hasn't worked out that way, but Denver hasn't exactly been a rushing monster this year either. No running game has doomed Carr

Carr is a game manager, not a gamebreaker. Nothing wrong with that, but if you don't have any runners and you have a piss poor D, a game manager at QB won't get it done.

If you want a team that blows other teams out of the water with passing, Carr is not the guy for that job. Want a running team that plays ball control with a great D, that is a different story.

So, The Texans are stuck at a place right now where they don't have the D or RB talent to be a ball control club, and don't have the QB or WR talent to throw it all over the field.

The Falcons are kind of in the same boat.

So, either upgrade the RBs and D or get a new QB and WR.


First it would be silly to expect the Denver ZBS to make anybody a 1000 yard back the first year it's implemented. So..... I think it is a bit to early to say it hasn't worked.

Secondly, our running game has been more on than not since week 8.

Third, Ever hear the saying that no one can conver for more than 4 seconds?? David was bootlegging his but off in the second half of the game Sunday, but there was that one, where he had literally all day to throw the ball...... & didn't. Couldn't find anyone "open".

Here's an excercise for you next week.

Watch how "open" the guys are that David does throw the ball to. Generally speaking, they are wide open, with no one in the immediate vicinity. The exception is the quick slants. He'll throw a lot of those, which makes sense with the size of our receivers.

Then watch the other guy. I know I'll take slack for this, but Aaron Brooks is pretty accurate. Especially downfield. If you got one on one coverage with Randy Moss...... or a Joe Horn...... you're already beat.

If you can remember the Buffalo game, where Lee Evans made two 83 yard TD receptions in back-to-back possessions. I'm sure Lossman saw the Safety playing (what he judged as too far) to the inside. If LeeEvans ever got to the outside of Faggins on a go route, there isn't anything the safety can do, or the CB, depending on where Lossman put the ball. Had he underthrown it, or threw it to his inside shoulder, then there are a dozen things that could have been done.

Like the deep pass in the endzone to AJ in the Jets game. That ball was put out in front of AJ, to his inside shoulder. He got his hands on it, the CB got his hands on it, the Safety got his hands on it...... If it had been thrown to his outside shoulder, that would have been a touchdown.

Of course, alot of this has to be worked out before hand..... how much room does the Reciever leave to the outside?? Between him & the sideline?? How far can you lead the reciever?? Different QB/WR combos will have different requirements.

At the same time, if your corner plays on top of the reciever on that route, to the inside (kinda like Dunta did against Coles) with a single safety, the QB can still throw the ball to the outside shoulder ahead of the reciever, the Corner would most likely be able to make a play on it, keeping the reciever from catching it. If Coles would have left some room between him & the sideline, that's probably where Chad would have put that ball. But Pennington threw the ball behind Coles (a little different from underthrowing) and to the outside. There was no way Dunta was going to be able to make a play on that ball, and the chances were slim that Laverneous would be able to either. That was a great play against good one-on-one coverage.

AJ is not the best route runner..... so he is rarely wideopen..... but if he is ever one-on-one with a corner you've got to let him use his athleticism to make a play for your team. But you've got to give him a chance. When the ball is in the air, he is great at adjusting to the ball, but there is only so much that he can do. When he has a step on a single Corner, throw the ball ahead of him. If he's trailing, throw it behing him, if the safety is inside, throw the ball outside, if the safety is outside, throw the ball inside....... but for some reason it appears the exact opposite is happening.

& while I'm ranting.... IMHO, David has gone back to watching his recievers.. one read, then dump down. I don't know how or why he ever started doing this, but It is his biggest problem right now. For one thing, the last thing he should be doing is watching any reciever. We've been working on thie "playbook" since early May, he should know where the reciever is going to be. what does he need to watch them for??

He needs to be watching the defense.... reading the defense. Corners up, Corners back...... where are the safeties....... where are the LBs...... where are the blitzers?? When the ball snaps, what do the safeties do?? which LBs actually come?? why are there three guys around AJ?? He should be able to look at a defense, locate the one player(there is usually one) that is being attacked, the one that is being pressured by the routes to make a decision. Usually it's a safety... could be a linebacker...... or a nickel corner, whatever. Visuallize the play...... if he covers the z route then I'll have Y wide open, if he takes Y, then I'll have Z. If the play is designed right, it's a win-win situation for us. If the safety(in this example) takes Z, and the defense rotates to where Y is taken away by something I didn't see before the snap, then I've still got my safety valve, and the ability to run..... If they are playing straight man coverage, then I'm going to AJ, or Moulds, depending on which route I like to throw... I'll look off the safety, by looking at the guy I don't want to throw the ball to. When the Safety makes that move, or the 2.5 second clock starts going off in my head, I'll turn locate the Corner, and throw the ball to the reciever I already wanted to throw the ball to, the placement of the ball, ahead, behind, inside, outside........ etc....... will depend on where the Corner was, or the strong safety if I've got Owen Daniels covered by RoyWilliams.

HJam72
11-28-2006, 09:53 AM
After the last two losses, is anyone else becoming unimpressed with Kubiak? The 3rd and two against the Bills was a forgivable mistake. He's a 1st year head coach, and you can see how he wants the ball in Carr's hands to get the win.

But after the loss against the Jets, it seems that our team is too dependent on a running game that isn't very good. I'm sorry, but if it isn't working, it isn't working! Do something else! You're not in Denver anymore; you can't count on a running game week in and week out. I thought you were running a WCO!

I think, as coachdent said in another thread, that the run blocking was changed at the start of the regular season....and that's the biggest problem with the running game, but certainly not the only one. I think Kubiak made a critical mistake in philosophy there, and, on top of that, most of his linemen and RBs are NOT even doing what he's coaching them to do on run plays. It's no wonder he abandoned the run. First thing he needs to do is go back to the scheme he used in preseason. Then, he needs to get on his RBs butts about "showing", as I'll call it here, where they're going to run to. He might even want to consider NOT using a fullback anymore, because Cook is fumbling the ball in critical situations and we have no good run-blocking FBs. We'd be better off sticking Bruener in there and having 2 TEs, especially the way Salaam's been doing. Do we even still have Bruener?

ronaldod1
11-28-2006, 12:02 PM
I thought we were going to discuss the 4 worst teams?

Okay, I'll play...

You can take New England, Indy, and Cincinatti out of the list. Those teams have top tier QBs, which is my point.

Seattle played in a weak division last year and had an easy schedule. Take them off the list. Besides, they lost there main offensive line guy because of the salary cap and free agency, which is my point. You are not going to be able to stack talent. You have to be to succeed with less.

Chicago, with that defense, any QB can make the playoffs in that division while playing in the NFC. Off the list for now!

So that leaves Denver and Pittsburgh. You may have a little bit of point on those two. We'll see what happens with Jake benched. As for Big Ben, I think his motorcycle accident and surgery have seriously affected him and his decision making. Take Big Ben off the list!

So that leaves Denver as a maybe? We'll have to see how things fare. But, keep this in mind, Shannan didn't win his first playoff game without Elway until last year? Why do you think it took so long? I guess he needed to improve the offensive line with your rationale?

If you aren't willing to admit that offensive line play is a crucial part of how the offense runs then you have no credibility.

sure the QB has to throw the ball, the receiver has to run their routes, but obviously that is happening....CARR HAS THE HIGHEST COMPLETION PERCENTAGE IN THE NFL.......the problem is that the line can't hold long enough for any significant routes to develop and even if there's a chance that they might, Carr can't rely on that because more often than not the protection will break down, so he's gotta make very quick decisions


O line cannot make a QB, but they can easily break one. No quarterback in the history of the NFL could win consistently in a system like the Houston Texans.

thunderkyss
11-28-2006, 12:04 PM
He might even want to consider NOT using a fullback anymore, because Cook is fumbling the ball in critical situations and we have no good run-blocking FBs. We'd be better off sticking Bruener in there and having 2 TEs, especially the way Salaam's been doing. Do we even still have Bruener?

I think the problem with the fullback is that nobody is watching him....... There were several plays where Cook ran out side, and provided a seal block, or assisted with a seal that would have given Lundy or Gado the outside, but they didn't follow him. I used to complain when Dayne didn't follow Lundy, but Dayne said you are taught to read your line in this system, so maybe they aren't even aware of what the FB is doing.

I don't think Cook is a great blocking fullback, but I do believe if they'd follow him to the outside, they could've picked up some big runs against the NYJ.

cuppacoffee
11-28-2006, 12:41 PM
Third, Ever hear the saying that no one can conver for more than 4 seconds?? David was bootlegging his but off in the second half of the game Sunday, but there was that one, where he had literally all day to throw the ball...... & didn't. Couldn't find anyone "open".

And why is this. They aren't open or Carr doesn't see them??

Here's an excercise for you next week.

Watch how "open" the guys are that David does throw the ball to. Generally speaking, they are wide open, with no one in the immediate vicinity.

Well, are they open or not? I can't recall seeing many Texan receivers running free in the secondary. Who have you seen wide open?

AJ is not the best route runner..... so he is rarely wideopen.....


I've mentioned this myself, once or twice.
.



Not stalking you, but I have a problem understanding some of your posts'.



:coffee:

threetoedpete
11-28-2006, 12:51 PM
I think you guys are wrong!!!

If the offensive line was more important, then it wouldn't matter who is the quarterback on any team, including David Carr!

We know you do and that is the point. They went cheap on the o-line for five years and now the chickens have come home to roost.

Lets reveiw:


Street free agent starting for the third round rookie pick @ left tackle.
Marginal blue collar guy at right gaurd...where did we draft him again ?
Center we got on day two subbing for the grey beard veteran @ center.
Huh...look it up if you want...I called that one.
And for the grande fanaly...Right tackle who was only supposed to obsevedr this season playing for another injured grey beard offensive lineman @ Rt.
The only rock this o-line has is Pittman. How many day two guys have we drafted and how many have worked out this season...By my count exactly one.

Yeah it has nothing at all to do with the lineman. Good Grief.

edo783
11-28-2006, 12:57 PM
We know you do and that is the point. They went cheap on the o-line for five years and now the chickens have come home to roost.

Lets reveiw:


Street free agent starting for the third round rookie pick @ left tackle.
Marginal blue collar guy at right gaurd...where did we draft him again ?
Center we got on day two subbing for the grey beard veteran @ center.
Huh...look it up if you want...I called that one.
And for the grande fanaly...Right tackle who was only supposed to obsevedr this season playing for another injured grey beard offensive lineman @ Rt.
The only rock this o-line has is Pittman. How many day two guys have we drafted and how many have worked out this season...By my count exactly one.

Yeah it has nothing at all to do with the lineman. Good Grief.

Keep preaching bro, keep preaching. Ya got a loud AMEN from this member of the congregation.

HOU-TEX
11-28-2006, 01:01 PM
We know you do and that is the point. They went cheap on the o-line for five years and now the chickens have come home to roost.

Lets reveiw:


Street free agent starting for the third round rookie pick @ left tackle.
Marginal blue collar guy at right gaurd...where did we draft him again ?
Center we got on day two subbing for the grey beard veteran @ center.
Huh...look it up if you want...I called that one.
And for the grande fanaly...Right tackle who was only supposed to obsevedr this season playing for another injured grey beard offensive lineman @ Rt.
The only rock this o-line has is Pittman. How many day two guys have we drafted and how many have worked out this season...By my count exactly one.

Yeah it has nothing at all to do with the lineman. Good Grief.


I assume you meant Pitts. Pittman is our deep snapper. I do agree with you though. I'd take OL at least in the 2nd and 3rd round. Use the first for another defensive player.

threetoedpete
11-28-2006, 01:02 PM
Not stalking you, but I have a problem understanding some of your posts'.



:coffee:

That's two of us . Don't feel like the Lone Ranger.

Basically ...he thinks Carr is toast. Vince Young is a combination of Johny Unitus and, Gale Sayers with the brains of Norm Van Broklin. If Vincent had the gumption, he could walk the water. In this particular post, it's not only Carrs fault, the running backs stink too. Because they didn't go where the hole was. And btw...Cook sucks too because he's not a road grader blocking fullback. Basically with TK...evrybody suxs.

threetoedpete
11-28-2006, 01:04 PM
I assume you meant Pitts. Pittman is our deep snapper. I do agree with you though. I'd take OL at least in the 2nd and 3rd round. Use the first for another defensive player.

Thanks for the correction. Freurian slip. Who knows maybe Pittman is the best we got at this point.

threetoedpete
11-28-2006, 01:12 PM
The two best OL last year were the Seahawhs and Steelers . They both had average QBs and a good running game . Anyone know what G Steve Hutchinson signed for this offseason ? You can't pay everyone .

The Colts OL is not considered elite ... Manning does'nt hold the ball , just like Marino he knows where he wants to go and what plan b is .

*cough* *cough*, fifty million, I stand to be corrected.

I think you're hitting around it, no offense but "release" is the thingy you're reaching for. Slew footed Marion, Manning and no cartlidge Joe Willy Nameth, have/had bodacious releases. The first thing I ask with a QB. How quick does he get rid of the ball ? Makes a difference.

TPIMP
11-28-2006, 01:40 PM
*cough* *cough*, fifty million, I stand to be corrected.

I think you're hitting around it, no offense but "release" is the thingy you're reaching for. Slew footed Marion, Manning and no cartlidge Joe Willy Nameth, have/had bodacious releases. The first thing I ask with a QB. How quick does he get rid of the ball ? Makes a difference.

Ok now I have to speak up. I am a huge Marino fan and followed him is whole carrer. I watched at least %90 of his games with the Dolphins. I can tell you without a doubt that Marino was great when he had an offensive line. Later in his career Jimmy Johnson gutted the offense around him and spent all the money and picks on Defense. Marino struggled at that point. Much like Brett Farve now.

The OL is the foundation the Offense is built on. It doesn't determine success alone but it can determine failure alone. A QB can only live up to his potential if the OL does their job consistantly. And yes an exceptional OL can cary an average QB to the superbowl...just ask Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Kurt Warner and Jake Dellhome.

I would say at the moment we have an average QB and a below average OL. I think Carr can be an above average QB when he can trust the OL to protect him. But if we are setting priority's for the draft it is the OL.

By the way Pitts is below average. He is just the best OL we have.

SESupergenius
11-28-2006, 02:09 PM
First it would be silly to expect the Denver ZBS to make anybody a 1000 yard back the first year it's implemented. So..... I think it is a bit to early to say it hasn't worked.

Secondly, our running game has been more on than not since week 8.

Third, Ever hear the saying that no one can conver for more than 4 seconds?? David was bootlegging his but off in the second half of the game Sunday, but there was that one, where he had literally all day to throw the ball...... & didn't. Couldn't find anyone "open".

Here's an excercise for you next week.

Watch how "open" the guys are that David does throw the ball to. Generally speaking, they are wide open, with no one in the immediate vicinity. The exception is the quick slants. He'll throw a lot of those, which makes sense with the size of our receivers.

Then watch the other guy. I know I'll take slack for this, but Aaron Brooks is pretty accurate. Especially downfield. If you got one on one coverage with Randy Moss...... or a Joe Horn...... you're already beat.

If you can remember the Buffalo game, where Lee Evans made two 83 yard TD receptions in back-to-back possessions. I'm sure Lossman saw the Safety playing (what he judged as too far) to the inside. If LeeEvans ever got to the outside of Faggins on a go route, there isn't anything the safety can do, or the CB, depending on where Lossman put the ball. Had he underthrown it, or threw it to his inside shoulder, then there are a dozen things that could have been done.

Like the deep pass in the endzone to AJ in the Jets game. That ball was put out in front of AJ, to his inside shoulder. He got his hands on it, the CB got his hands on it, the Safety got his hands on it...... If it had been thrown to his outside shoulder, that would have been a touchdown.

Of course, alot of this has to be worked out before hand..... how much room does the Reciever leave to the outside?? Between him & the sideline?? How far can you lead the reciever?? Different QB/WR combos will have different requirements.

At the same time, if your corner plays on top of the reciever on that route, to the inside (kinda like Dunta did against Coles) with a single safety, the QB can still throw the ball to the outside shoulder ahead of the reciever, the Corner would most likely be able to make a play on it, keeping the reciever from catching it. If Coles would have left some room between him & the sideline, that's probably where Chad would have put that ball. But Pennington threw the ball behind Coles (a little different from underthrowing) and to the outside. There was no way Dunta was going to be able to make a play on that ball, and the chances were slim that Laverneous would be able to either. That was a great play against good one-on-one coverage.

AJ is not the best route runner..... so he is rarely wideopen..... but if he is ever one-on-one with a corner you've got to let him use his athleticism to make a play for your team. But you've got to give him a chance. When the ball is in the air, he is great at adjusting to the ball, but there is only so much that he can do. When he has a step on a single Corner, throw the ball ahead of him. If he's trailing, throw it behing him, if the safety is inside, throw the ball outside, if the safety is outside, throw the ball inside....... but for some reason it appears the exact opposite is happening.

& while I'm ranting.... IMHO, David has gone back to watching his recievers.. one read, then dump down. I don't know how or why he ever started doing this, but It is his biggest problem right now. For one thing, the last thing he should be doing is watching any reciever. We've been working on thie "playbook" since early May, he should know where the reciever is going to be. what does he need to watch them for??

He needs to be watching the defense.... reading the defense. Corners up, Corners back...... where are the safeties....... where are the LBs...... where are the blitzers?? When the ball snaps, what do the safeties do?? which LBs actually come?? why are there three guys around AJ?? He should be able to look at a defense, locate the one player(there is usually one) that is being attacked, the one that is being pressured by the routes to make a decision. Usually it's a safety... could be a linebacker...... or a nickel corner, whatever. Visuallize the play...... if he covers the z route then I'll have Y wide open, if he takes Y, then I'll have Z. If the play is designed right, it's a win-win situation for us. If the safety(in this example) takes Z, and the defense rotates to where Y is taken away by something I didn't see before the snap, then I've still got my safety valve, and the ability to run..... If they are playing straight man coverage, then I'm going to AJ, or Moulds, depending on which route I like to throw... I'll look off the safety, by looking at the guy I don't want to throw the ball to. When the Safety makes that move, or the 2.5 second clock starts going off in my head, I'll turn locate the Corner, and throw the ball to the reciever I already wanted to throw the ball to, the placement of the ball, ahead, behind, inside, outside........ etc....... will depend on where the Corner was, or the strong safety if I've got Owen Daniels covered by RoyWilliams.

Good post. i will add however that on the quick slants, our WR's are not breaking any kind of tackles, which is unheard of considering the amount of slants we throw and the size and speed of our receivers, i just can't explain this other than the lack of heart by them.

Aaron Brooks in not that accurate. He missed the mark many times before he got hurt and I've watched a few Raiders games this season. Not lately however, but i wouldn't think it's changed much.

AJ is not double or triple teamed that much and when he does have one on ones, if the CB is close, the CB wins that battle. AJ is not great at adjusting the ball when a CB is on him. He may be decent, but he not up there with Moss and Chad Johnson.

I've noted that Carr's biggest flaw is that he places the ball in the WR's hands at the spot of the body and not in the direction where the Reciever can catch the ball on the fly and allow him to continue his path. Carrs passes are darts to the body and not the recievers motion. He's highly accurate however and gets the ball to the spot of the body, and needs to learn to the lay the ball into the receivers hands more.

Losman was NOT that accurate to throw to a specific shoulder when our guy was in his face. sorry, that one doesn't fly. It's just that Faggins is a nickel back playing in the wrong position and people pick on him. You're giving way to much credit to the QB's we play. Our safeties are the worst in the NFL so I wouldn't put too much comparision in what the other offense does against them to what our QB does against the opposition.

HOU-TEX
11-28-2006, 02:43 PM
Thanks for the correction. Freurian slip. Who knows maybe Pittman is the best we got at this point.

LOL! You might be on to something there.:shades: