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Wharton
11-22-2006, 01:25 PM
Well, itís the day before Turkey day and since I have nothing better to do, I decided to think about football. Specifically, How does DC throw 22 strait completions without a TD? How does DC fair against the rest of th e league? The table below was taken from Yahoo and modified slightly to show us the percentage of TD per completion and the percentage of TD per attempt.
Name____________G_____QBRat____Comp____Att____Pct_ ____TD____TD/Comp____TD/Att
Rex Grossman________10_____83.5_____177_____312_____56 .7_____18_____10.17%_____5.77%
Donovan McNabb_____10_____95.5_____180_____316_____57.0___ __18_____10.00%_____5.70%
Seneca Wallace_________6_____76.2_____82_____141_____58.2 ______8_____9.76%_____5.67%
Matt Hasselbeck________6_____82.8_____103_____176_____5 8.5_____10_____9.71%_____5.68%
Tom Brady___________10_____88.1_____199_____334_____59 .6_____19_____9.55%_____5.69%
Michael Vick_________10_____74.3_____140_____267_____52.4_ ____13_____9.29%_____4.87%
Carson Palmer________10_____97.7_____203_____322_____63.0 _____18_____8.87%_____5.59%
Peyton Manning_______10_____100.5____230_____359_____64.1 _____20_____8.70%_____5.57%
Eli Manning___________9_____81.0_____174_____293_____5 9.4_____15_____8.62%_____5.12%
Drew Bledsoe_________6_____69.2______90_____169_____53. 3______7_____7.78%_____4.14%
Tony Romo__________10_____100.0___103_____151_____68.2_ ______8_____7.77%_____5.30%
Damon Huard_________9_____97.6_____146_____241_____60.6_ ____11_____7.53%_____4.56%
Philip Rivers_________10_____99.7_____201_____300_____67. 0_____15_____7.46%_____5.00%
Bruce Gradkowski_____9_____73.7_____129_____239_____54.0 _______9_____6.98%_____3.77%
Drew Brees__________10_____95.1_____254_____383_____66. 3_____17_____6.69%_____4.44%
Jake Plummer________10_____69.7_____150_____276_____54. 3_____10_____6.67%_____3.62%
Byron Leftwich_______6_____79.0_____108_____183_____59.0 _______7_____6.48%_____3.83%
Brett Favre__________10_____80.1_____208_____367_____56. 7_____13_____6.25%_____3.54%
Ben Roethlisberger____9_____75.8_____192_____306_____6 2.7______12_____6.25%_____3.92%
J.P. Losman_________10_____85.1_____164_____262_____62. 6_____10_____6.10%_____3.82%
Alex Smith__________10_____82.7_____169_____274_____61. 7_____10_____5.92%_____3.65%
Chad Pennington_____10_____76.8_____177_____286_____61. 9_____10_____5.65%_____3.50%
Jake Delhomme______10_____81.1_____195_____329_____59.3 _____11_____5.64%_____3.34%
Marc Bulger_________10_____93.9_____231_____364_____63. 5_____13_____5.63%_____3.57%
Steve McNair________10_____78.1_____186_____304_____61.2 _____10_____5.38%_____3.29%
Matt Leinart__________7_____68.1_____118_____220_____53 .6______6_____5.08%_____2.73%
Mark Brunell_________9_____86.5_____162_____260_____62. 3_______8_____4.94%_____3.08%
Jon Kitna___________10_____80.9_____229_____364_____62 .9_____11_____4.80%_____3.02%
David Carr__________10_____89.5_____198_____285_____69.5 ______9_____4.55%_____3.16%
Charlie Frye_________10_____73.8_____198_____316_____62.7_ ____9_____4.55%_____2.85%
Brad Johnson________10_____73.4_____207_____332_____62. 3_____5_____2.42%_____1.51%

Its pretty obvious, DC does not fair well against the rest of the league when it comes to throwing TDs. Then I thought, is this a pattern with DC? Well, 2004 DCís TD/Comp was ranked 26th in the NFL at 5.61% and in 2005 he ranked 25th at 5.47%.

Surprisingly, this data actually shows DC regressing in some ways. Since 2003 DC has increased his % complete each year, yet the percentage of TD completions has fallen. Also, considering he has been sacked less this year then in years past, DC is still not getting the ball into the endzone.

There is a lot of reason for DC to be at the bottom of the list as far as number of TD completions other then his poor play such as:
Poor field position: While I donít have any number on this, considering our defense doesnít get too many turnovers, I suspect, the Texans are at the low end of the field position scale.
Poor line play: While the line is playing better this year then last, I wouldnít exactly say they are good.
Mediocre running game: I suspect when DD was healthy, DC played better, but all in all, Iíd say we have not displayed a good running game.

Oh well, that's all the time I have to play at work. All you Carr Homers can trash me now.

hollywood_texan
11-22-2006, 01:53 PM
Wharton, good analysis and breakdown, but this shouldn't be surprising because the Texans average about 16 points a game since 2002 any which way slice it. So, the stats you are pointing out are going to be low.

wolfscar
11-22-2006, 01:58 PM
There is a lot of reason for DC to be at the bottom of the list as far as number of TD completions other then his poor play such as:
Poor field position: While I donít have any number on this, considering our defense doesnít get too many turnovers, I suspect, the Texans are at the low end of the field position scale.
Poor line play: While the line is playing better this year then last, I wouldnít exactly say they are good.
Mediocre running game: I suspect when DD was healthy, DC played better, but all in all, Iíd say we have not displayed a good running game.

I think you started to touch on it right there. Statistics only tell you a part of the story. On Sunday what I saw was a guy growing in confidence, throwing well, making a ton of completions and doing his part to get the team into good field positions and hold onto the football. There were also a few big passing plays that would have gone for a TD if Nate Clements wasn't so damn good.

We're playing conservative football this year, so his TDs are bound to be down, but his INTs are down too and - most importantly - we're competing every week. More TDs would be great, but he's got 2 more than this time last year (and 1 less INT) and next year I suspect it'll be considerably more than that. :twocents:

Wharton
11-22-2006, 02:07 PM
Wharton, good analysis and breakdown, but this shouldn't be surprising because the Texans average about 16 points a game since 2002 any which way slice it. So, the stats you are pointing out are going to be low.Oh, I agree. It was either play on excel breaking down DC's statistics or doing work. What can I say, I chose to play.

Honoring Earl 34
11-22-2006, 02:09 PM
I wonder how long the average TD pass is ?

profan
11-22-2006, 02:09 PM
wharton, we had a running game against buffalo and he had 0 td's. Interesting to look at Sage's stat at 11.11% in the limited action he has seen with a qb rating of 103.

Wharton
11-22-2006, 02:21 PM
wharton, we had a running game against buffalo and he had 0 td's. Interesting to look at Sage's stat at 11.11% in the limited action he has seen with a qb rating of 103.Well, your right.

My comment was more general then a specific game. I think in general we could say that our running game over the past three years has been inconsistant.

While the Buffalo game looks like a freak occurance. It was actually predictable given DC's TD/Comp has fallen from '04 and '05 numbers and ranking even though DC has gotten better protection and better weapons, specifically a pass catching TE and a legit #2 WR.

Carr does not show the appearance of being a "gunslinger" as many on this board have predicted for next year.

TheCD
11-22-2006, 06:07 PM
Surprisingly, this data actually shows DC regressing in some ways. Since 2003 DC has increased his % complete each year, yet the percentage of TD completions has fallen. Also, considering he has been sacked less this year then in years past, DC is still not getting the ball into the endzone.


I think what people fail to realize when it comes to Carr and the "long ball" or "field vision" is the fact that we're still in the midst of transitioning to a West Coast offense, and while Carr has run a similar type of offense in college, the Pro-style West Coast offense generally takes 2-3 years for a QB to get fully acclimated to.

That being said...I do think he should be vastly improved next season compared to now. He's shown the flashes of what he can do in this offense, and he obviously excels in the West Coast philosophy (short passes, etc.). I think when Kubiak feels Carr is more comfortable with things, he'll open up the long ball more (I think this will especially be the case when we get Mathis back).

Wolf
11-22-2006, 06:14 PM
troubling to me, was www.footballoutsiders.com had stats on it and it was redzone td percentage.. last season Carr had 1 more chance than hasselback, but hasselback had more TD's.

of course I am comparing a superbowl team to ours and the talent isn't there.
and Capers will never be compared to Holgrem in terms of coaching an offense.

ChrisG
11-22-2006, 06:44 PM
he has the best completion percentage...that would be cool with me if the running game was getting the TDs done, but they are not

srstex
11-22-2006, 07:07 PM
I love the stats, and it tells me, Homer, that Carr needs to improve. I also saw that Kubiak stated that teams are playing us three deep keeping everything in front of them so we have to call the short pass ( just passing HIS words ). I still have a major problem with Cook, he could have kept us in the Giant game and this last one, he needs the same treatment Carr received, your out of there, put Bruner in, if for nothing else to show him he can be replaced too.
I only get to watch the game once, but it seems to me that in the third quarter Kubiak went 3 & out, 4 & out, 3 & out, trying to run, and behind the line WR screens, that we do poorly, my opinion on the play/play calling still is as it always has been, throw MORE, short passing works for us use it, till someone stops us, our game still can make a first down with any consistantcy. I think Kubiak needs to attack when he has a lead, no-one will be looking for it.

tsip
11-22-2006, 10:01 PM
I wonder how long the average TD pass is ?


Dan Pastorini and Kenny Burroughs avg 43 yds per TD pass during their career together.

edo783
11-22-2006, 11:07 PM
Dan Pastorini and Kenny Burroughs avg 43 yds per TD pass during their career together.

Any data in this century?

tsip
11-23-2006, 01:31 AM
Any data in this century?

...why, you got some?

NATHANHALE
11-23-2006, 06:44 AM
Carr threw 4 TDs in his 1st 2 games-5 in his last 8. Too. we don't light up the score board from the rushing side either. We don't have a defense that can go 'lights out,' so what's a team suppose to do?...if it wants to win games? Last year, Carr threw 6 TDs in the last 6 games, so that's not a 'big' hurdle to climb and he only needs 5 TDs to match '05's dismal total of 14.

Scoring points has never been a 'strong' point of the Texans, and that certainly continues this year. If Carr continues on his 10 game avg, he will match last years 14--if he continues his last 8 avg (zero in his last 4), he won't.

IMO, these last 6 games are going to say a lot about where this team is headed with Carr as the QB. This is turning into one of those 'would you have thought years?' If I told you before the season that Carr would not match his anemic TD total passes of 14 of '05, what would you have said?:yahoo:

thunderkyss
11-23-2006, 09:30 AM
Scoring points has never been a 'strong' point of the Texans, and that certainly continues this year. If Carr continues on his 10 game avg, he will match last years 14--if he continues his last 8 avg (zero in his last 4), he won't.


it's curious that those last 4 games were also games that we were still in..... Our offense doesn't score touchdowns when we have the lead. It's the damndest thing I've ever seen.

Tayton
11-23-2006, 12:14 PM
Any list that has Rex Grossman on top has got to have inherent problems.

NATHANHALE
11-23-2006, 03:08 PM
Any list that has Rex Grossman on top has got to have inherent problems.

Well, he must be doing something right, as his team has won 3 times more games than the Texans--part of the problem may be, that while somw QB's improve in the league to lead their teams to wins, some don't..............

Wolf
11-23-2006, 04:01 PM
Well, he must be doing something right, as his team has won 3 times more games than the Texans--part of the problem may be, that while somw QB's improve in the league to lead their teams to wins, some don't..............

yeah and we have a defense that rivals the bears

NATHANHALE
11-23-2006, 04:05 PM
yeah and we have a defense that rivals the bears

...question is, would Carr be able to put points on the board with the Bears?

NATHANHALE
11-23-2006, 06:16 PM
Scoring points--our offense has scored 0-7 pts in 33/40 qtrs-82.5%.
our defense has given up 0-7 pts in 30/40 qtrs-75%

Wharton
11-23-2006, 08:08 PM
...question is, would Carr be able to put points on the board with the Bears?Having the Bears defense may shorten the field a bit, but I doubt the quality of defense has much to do with the QB's ability to put the ball in the endzone.

The Seahawks defense rated in the bottom half of the NFL and Seneca Wallace (a backup) is ranked no. 3 on the list and the Colts defense isnít much better and Payton has some big numbers too. Not to mention Bruce Gradkowski is also a backup QB with a crappy defense and his TD / Comp is very respectable.

So I donít see the connection between Grossman having a good defense and him throwing TDs.

Wolf
11-23-2006, 08:32 PM
I am not saying Carr is the greatest ever ,but this is a team game and most bashers forget that.

HJam72
11-23-2006, 08:35 PM
I am not saying Carr is the greatest ever ,but this is a team game and most bashers forget that.

Some of them don't know it at all.

edo783
11-23-2006, 08:37 PM
...why, you got some?

Nope, that's why I asked.

Honoring Earl 34
11-23-2006, 08:45 PM
OK , are the Cowboys a better team with Bledsoe or Romo ?

Wharton
11-23-2006, 08:53 PM
I am not saying Carr is the greatest ever ,but this is a team game and most bashers forget that.That's a tired arguement.

Ok here our usual reply - Yes and Carr Homers blame it on everything else but David. Apparently now it's the defense's fault that DC stinks.

Come up with something new.

:neener:

HJam72
11-23-2006, 08:54 PM
OK , are the Cowboys a better team with Bledsoe or Romo ?

Carr :tease:

Honoring Earl 34
11-23-2006, 08:59 PM
Carr :tease:

Call Bill and see if he'll make that deal . Since Carr was the 1st overall pick and Romo was'nt drafted tell him we want Barber to .

HJam72
11-23-2006, 09:01 PM
Call Bill and see if he'll make that deal . Since Carr was the 1st overall pick and Romo was'nt drafted tell him we want Barber to .

I'd love to try it on a temporary basis.

Wolf
11-23-2006, 09:01 PM
Carr stinks lets replace him

Honoring Earl 34
11-23-2006, 09:02 PM
Carr stinks lets replace him

Carr stinks lets bathe him ... huh .

Wolf
11-23-2006, 09:04 PM
no .. I feel sage will turn this franchise around

Honoring Earl 34
11-23-2006, 09:06 PM
After watching Rivers and Romo the one thing I'm sure of is its better to take a little longer with your QB than to rush him . Of course this is only for rookies .

NATHANHALE
11-23-2006, 09:11 PM
I am not saying Carr is the greatest ever ,but this is a team game and most bashers forget that.

IMO, no NFL player is 'coddled' the way Carr has been. From different protection schemes to different receiver and running backs and tight ends to play calling designed not to upset him, etc.

Yes, it's a team game so why does Carr require so much 'personal attention?'
All around the NFL, new QB's are stepping up and leading their team to victories but David has to have a game plan that features 3yds of the ball in the air and a run for the other 4 yds. How many QBs in the NFL have to have 'max protect?'--2 tackles/2guards/a center/2 tight ends/ and a running back....geezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

What's left to give Carr? Yea, it's suppose to be a team game...but not in Houston.:brickwall :brickwall :brickwall

Wolf
11-23-2006, 09:26 PM
wow Carr was coddled by capers and not kubiak , but y'all can't give a half a season to unlearn what he has learned for 4 years ..o well, I guess y'alll learn ever new job in a day

Napa Auto Parts
11-23-2006, 09:34 PM
I might sound like a total carr homer but those Stats don't measure David Carr's heart LMAO its the system that hurt him all along Capers never let him develop the line doesn't block no running game what else Vince Young Put A curse on him im running out of excuses here Homer's unite help me they are bashing our Golden Boy.

Wolf
11-23-2006, 09:39 PM
That's a tired arguement.

Ok here our usual reply - Yes and Carr Homers blame it on everything else but David. Apparently now it's the defense's fault that DC stinks.

Come up with something new.

:neener:
and the carr haters don't see that the team helps out

Honoring Earl 34
11-23-2006, 09:42 PM
I think what Carr has trouble doing limits what the team can do ... it always has .

Wharton
11-23-2006, 09:53 PM
and the carr haters don't see that the team helps outDidn't your already say this once?

Wolf
11-23-2006, 09:55 PM
did you not..oh wait ... it is an individual sport

NATHANHALE
11-23-2006, 10:09 PM
wow Carr was coddled by capers and not kubiak , but y'all can't give a half a season to unlearn what he has learned for 4 years ..o well, I guess y'alll learn ever new job in a day

Kubiak has stated many times he has had to 'dumb down' the playbook for Carr. He has also said Carr has a long way to go. Our offense has virtually the same results/out put of last year. Kubiak said we'd be aggressive and do whatever it took to win---notttttttttt.

Please.please, tell me where this years offense is so much different than last years! We're on pace to score 'fewer' points and I wonder if we will go down in history as the only NFL team without a verticle passing attack with Carr at QB.

Kubiak's not 'coddling' Carr? What more could he do to 'cater' to David?:yahoo:

edo783
11-24-2006, 02:44 PM
Kubiak has stated many times he has had to 'dumb down' the playbook for Carr.

That is not true. If you have a place where you can point to that says that, please provide the link, should be easy if he has stated it many times. Otherwise, please don't post false info. Please bear in mind that saying they are working to institute the play book, or there are more things they are going to work on, does not constitute dumbing anything down.

thunderkyss
11-24-2006, 03:40 PM
Kubiak said that he needs to find ways to help Carr get off to a faster start. He said he had thought he had done it, but may have to make it even simpler.....

It'll take some time to find it, but we had a whole thread based on that statement.

You don't have to believe it if you don't want. but it's true.

It's even true that Kubiak has said that he has had to un-install, and re-install the system three times... one reason, was because of the difficulty David has had in picking it up.......

Goldeagle
11-24-2006, 03:44 PM
You have AJ run out at the 1 yard line in the last game for no reason, and its more about wins than #8s TD ratio.

Honoring Earl 34
11-24-2006, 03:51 PM
AJ is in on the conspiracy don't you know .

abbest
11-24-2006, 04:09 PM
This is from a John McClain`s blog in the Houston Chronicle. What's wrong with this picture: Don Meredith, Roger Staubach, Danny White, Troy Aikman, Tony Romo. Tony Romo? If the kid's not a one-hit wonder, he looks like he could be special. And guess who's coaching him? Chris Palmer. Yes, the same Chris Palmer who was the Texans' scapegoat in 2005 when he was fired after the first two games. Railroaded out of town because the team was in disarray.

I guess Palmer can still coach a little, huh? Romo hadn't throw a pass until Palmer started coaching him early in the offseason. The Tuna was smart to hire Palmer to coach a young quarterback. So many of you were quick to blame what was wrong with Carr and the offense on Palmer, and now you're saying Carr's making the same mistakes. If Chris Palmer and Gary Kubiak can't make a legitimate, winning NFL quarterback out of David Carr, I don't think anybody can.

Scooter
11-24-2006, 07:34 PM
the number that stands out to me is the completion percentage ... it leads the league however we cant score. i'm not appologizing for carr because i want more out of him also, but if he's completing 70% of his passes, it's up to his receivers to start making those big plays. a big play doesnt have to be a 40 yard jump ball to AJ, it has to be a catch and run. our receivers and tight ends are getting open short (as the west coast offense is designed to do), carr's finding them, completing it ... and that's it. i cant off of the top of my head think of a single big run this season. there arent any broken tackles. no major downfield blocks to spring a crossing route. this offense was built to feature a whole lot of running, and a qb that is able to complete a lot of short "catch & run" passes or be able to take off himself. carr's done his job IMO.

rushing yards ..... 22nd
rushing td's ....... 24th (with only 6 td's, 2 of which are carr's)
passing yards ..... 19th
passing td's ....... 16th
field goals ......... 28th

our passing attack is the best thing going for us, and carr's rating & completion percentage reflect that he's doing his part. our running backs (where we're supposed to be scoring our td's) have had their combined year long output tied by ladanian tomlinson, in a single game, in consecutive games.

threetoedpete
11-24-2006, 08:03 PM
troubling to me, was www.footballoutsiders.com had stats on it and it was redzone td percentage.. last season Carr had 1 more chance than hasselback, but hasselback had more TD's.

of course I am comparing a superbowl team to ours and the talent isn't there.
and Capers will never be compared to Holgrem in terms of coaching an offense.

Yeah no sheet shelock. Be nice one year in the draft, instaed of watching them sail away to other clubs we actually land a top OLT prospect. Ya think that might have something to do with it ? I mean IMHO it's kind of a steep drop off between Walter Jones and Efferin. I mean some of the big posters were ready to kick Salaam out onto the street out of camp. Blind man can see it. The guy is so shell shocked now he is pretty much worthless. Kinda like a self fulfilling prophecey for the Carr Bashers. We deserve to be picking where we're picking this year. Fix the GD offensive line. Dump Carr if y'all want. Draft the OU power back. The FS out of LSU...Stick with the guys we currently have on the rooster on the o-line. We'll be right back here next thanksgiving disscussing the short commings of the new guy or Sage or whomever. It ain't the running backs. It ain't the quarterback. I mean it'd of been one thing after Bosselli they had gone after another coner stone. And there are still people on the board upset of Wand getting cut loose. But the bottom line is, this organization took this guy over Peppers...and then left the guy twisting under the scoffolding. You can rag on Carr all you want...the rest of the league, the ones who don't have a dog in this fight knows. And I do too. We took a great prospect and squandered him.

NATHANHALE
11-24-2006, 08:09 PM
the number that stands out to me is the completion percentage ... it leads the league however we cant score. i'm not appologizing for carr because i want more out of him also, but if he's completing 70% of his passes, it's up to his receivers to start making those big plays. a big play doesnt have to be a 40 yard jump ball to AJ, it has to be a catch and run. our receivers and tight ends are getting open short (as the west coast offense is designed to do), carr's finding them, completing it ... and that's it. i cant off of the top of my head think of a single big run this season. there arent any broken tackles. no major downfield blocks to spring a crossing route. this offense was built to feature a whole lot of running, and a qb that is able to complete a lot of short "catch & run" passes or be able to take off himself. carr's done his job IMO.

rushing yards ..... 22nd
rushing td's ....... 24th (with only 6 td's, 2 of which are carr's)
passing yards ..... 19th
passing td's ....... 16th
field goals ......... 28th

our passing attack is the best thing going for us, and carr's rating & completion percentage reflect that he's doing his part. our running backs (where we're supposed to be scoring our td's) have had their combined year long output tied by ladanian tomlinson, in a single game, in consecutive games.

...agree, except there is also the 'verticle' passing game that goes with the WCO--because no one respects are verticle game, they key on our short game--that is why, like on that 3rd/2 play, AJ had 3 defenders on him for a 'dink' pass.

Carr is not getting the ball down field enough and, IMO, is a big reason we don't score many points--Carr has always thrown short, so I'm not suprised he's accurate at tossing tha ball a few feet

Too, Carr has only thrown 9 TD passes (0 in the last 4 games), which ranks him at 28th in the league...as I posted before, his most recent trend has him at fewer TDs than '05--entire season trend has him matching last yr--1/3 of his 9 tds came in one game (3 in garbage time against the Colts)...

Without question-if we want to see more wins-we need more points from somewhere...

Wolf
11-24-2006, 08:11 PM
if you have followed my posts over the last few years,I am not a Carr hater, but somewhere with my sarcasm yesterday, I have become one.. oh well

threetoedpete
11-24-2006, 08:17 PM
if you have followed my posts over the last few years,I am not a Carr hater, but somewhere with my sarcasm yesterday, I have become one.. oh well

I have and it's not you wolf. This topic just has gotten my last nerve. You're a great poster and more of a credit to this board than I am. I'm just sick of it. I can understand people who are fifth avenue fans, monday mornign QBs, not getting it...I just happened to latch on to yours as a spring board. The rant wasn't aimed at you. SS. Carr may well nbe done...but whats the point of stirring it up again ? To be right ? It looks like an embarrasment to me. There should be no joy from any quarter on this board for this abject failure.

Wolf
11-24-2006, 08:21 PM
I have and it's not you wolf. This topic just has gotten my last nerve. You're a great poster and more of a credit to this board than I am. I'm just sick of it. I can understand people who are fifth avenue fans, monday mornign QBs, not getting it...I just happened to latch on to yours as a spring board. The rant wasn't aimed at you. SS. Carr may well nbe done...but whats the point of stirring it up again ? To be right ? It looks like an embarrasment to me. There should be no joy from any quarter on this board for this abject failure.

true, I got ya.. I took it because out of my sarcastic thread ( I am like you there seems to be no inbetween when it comes to Carr by some, he either stinks or is great. hence the sarcastic trade Carr thread, but yet I almost get to the point where in terms of fan base, it might be the best for him (due to my frustration and yours)

threetoedpete
11-24-2006, 08:29 PM
Kubiak has stated many times he has had to 'dumb down' the playbook for Carr. He has also said Carr has a long way to go. Our offense has virtually the same results/out put of last year. Kubiak said we'd be aggressive and do whatever it took to win---notttttttttt.

Please.please, tell me where this years offense is so much different than last years! We're on pace to score 'fewer' points and I wonder if we will go down in history as the only NFL team without a verticle passing attack with Carr at QB.

Kubiak's not 'coddling' Carr? What more could he do to 'cater' to David?:yahoo:

Uh let's see, we lost our running back the second day of summer camp. Then we lost our OLT prospect becuase the running backwas watching his crotch instead of the hole. Then we lost are other starting tackle. So now we're down to a rook RB and two that other organzations sniffed and threw back. A grey beard, who also was thrown back into the pile by another club is now on Carrs blind side. And a rook with a bad wheel on the other. Uh , even you say, I think under the curcumstances thats prety fair for this group at this time. Different ? The only way you could possibly say this season is the same as last season is if you've been under a rock the last three years. Good greif.

thunderkyss
11-24-2006, 08:35 PM
rushing yards ..... 22nd
rushing td's ....... 24th (with only 6 td's, 2 of which are carr's)
passing yards ..... 19th
passing td's ....... 16th
field goals ......... 28th

our passing attack is the best thing going for us, and carr's rating & completion percentage reflect that he's doing his part. our running backs (where we're supposed to be scoring our td's) have had their combined year long output tied by ladanian tomlinson, in a single game, in consecutive games.

If what you say is true, then we wouldn't hear our coach talking about needing to improve our QB play, our passing game.... etc, etc....

Looking at the stats, yeah our passing game is doing it's thing. But watching the game, you can see we need to work on our passing game & our running game.

as an aside, a good running game usually comes with 120 rushing yards. A good passing game usually comes with more than 250 passing yards. you have to hit 250 often enough to be able to avg over 230 ypg. we aren't even close. Our passing game is similar to those of Seattle's, Kansas City's, Washinton's. Each of those teams will tell you their passing game hasn't been what they would have liked for it to be.

Second Honeymoon
11-24-2006, 08:40 PM
Stop all of the excuses everyone. I have been drinking the Carr kool-aid this season but I have had enough. I am sick of waiting around for things to advance and for us to make positive strides. Other teams have problems with QB production and they make a move. Sometimes guys just arent winners. Carr is not a winner. Look at Dallas, their offensive line sucked and their running game was suspect....well they make a move and now are dominating offensively with a guy who has NEVER STARTED BEFORE.

Romo has come in and instantly made an impact at QB while we are still waiting for Carr to win a football game for us 5 years later.....Romo has the same OL that Bledsoe has..same running game....sometimes guys just are never going to be a winner and will never do what it takes to be a winner....Carr is one of those guys. He lacks the mental acumen to make it in this league. He doesnt have what it takes mentally and has some inherent flaws in his mechanics and basic fundamentals.

I am sick of the excuses and sick of the losses. Carr needs to go at the end of the season. Period. End of story. Lets build this team around a good running game, capable veteran QB game management and a nasty hard hitting defense. We will never win diddly with little Davey at QB. I have had it and anyone who has a clue has to agree that David just isnt producing adequate results....

Carr's TD/Completion ratio is of course abysmal and an embarassment. I don't hate the guy but he has been an albatross for this franchise for going on 5 years. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!

Doug from The Woodlands

Wolf
11-24-2006, 08:40 PM
I think we will hear the word "improve" no matter what , when a coach is satisfied, that is the day walking papers gets handed to them

Wolf
11-24-2006, 08:40 PM
Stop all of the excuses everyone. I have been drinking the Carr kool-aid this season but I have had enough. I am sick of waiting around for things to advance and for us to make positive strides. Other teams have problems with QB production and they make a move. Sometimes guys just arent winners. Carr is not a winner. Look at Dallas, their offensive line sucked and their running game was suspect....well they make a move and now are dominating offensively with a guy who has NEVER STARTED BEFORE.

Romo has come in and instantly made an impact at QB while we are still waiting for Carr to win a football game for us 5 years later.....Romo has the same OL that Bledsoe has..same running game....sometimes guys just are never going to be a winner and will never do what it takes to be a winner....Carr is one of those guys. He lacks the mental acumen to make it in this league. He doesnt have what it takes mentally and has some inherent flaws in his mechanics and basic fundamentals.

I am sick of the excuses and sick of the losses. Carr needs to go at the end of the season. Period. End of story. Lets build this team around a good running game, capable veteran QB game management and a nasty hard hitting defense. We will never win diddly with little Davey at QB. I have had it and anyone who has a clue has to agree that David just isnt producing adequate results....

Carr's TD/Completion ratio is of course abysmal and an embarassment. I don't hate the guy but he has been an albatross for this franchise for going on 5 years. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!

Doug from The Woodlands

I must have missed your Carr Kool-aid then

I would think if we had what you want, Carr would be winning.. Carr isn't losing us games (except the infamous benching game) but what people (I guess) is complaining about is he isn't winning them either

thunderkyss
11-24-2006, 09:05 PM
Uh let's see, we lost our running back the second day of summer camp. Then we lost our OLT prospect becuase the running backwas watching his crotch instead of the hole. Then we lost are other starting tackle. So now we're down to a rook RB and two that other organzations sniffed and threw back. A grey beard, who also was thrown back into the pile by another club is now on Carrs blind side. And a rook with a bad wheel on the other. Uh , even you say, I think under the curcumstances thats prety fair for this group at this time. Different ? The only way you could possibly say this season is the same as last season is if you've been under a rock the last three years. Good greif.

ONly Flozelle, and AndreGurrode were drafted by the Dallas Cowboys. There wasn't a big bidding war to get Kyle Kosier from Detroit... or Marc Columbo... or Marco Rivera...... Kosier was actually cut from two teams before becoming a Cowboy. My point here, is if they were on this team, we'd be complaining about the washed up talent we brought to this team.

TGlenn......... if he were here, we'd be talking about how he lost a step, then we'd be complaining about how T.O. drops balls all the time.

But they're winning games.

6 weeks ago, they looked like the worse offensive unit in the NFC East. Change the QB, and they are leading the division....... some folks even talking about Superbowl.

And we'll be talking about how we wish we had those has beens keeping David safe. & how Carr would be doing so much better if we had those recievers.... those weapons..... well, at least Glenn & Witten. Never mind the Talent we do have, that we can't get the ball to.


So what am I talking about??

Andre is doing his thing... looks like a probowl alternate at the least.

Since week 6, we avg 122 yards on the ground & that's including a 34 yard performance against the Giants.

Graybeard has been doing a fairly decent job, and the rook with the broken wheel don't look bad at all.

OUr biggest problem on offense, is our center, and the guy behind the center.

Scooter
11-24-2006, 09:15 PM
Carr is not getting the ball down field enough and, IMO, is a big reason we don't score many points--Carr has always thrown short, so I'm not suprised he's accurate at tossing tha ball a few feet.

plain & simple, we cant block for that long. never could. if you want carr to throw 20-30 yard routes and a few bombs every game, we're going to lead the league in sacks again ... and with all of the injuries, we might break the record (again). we went deep twice against the bills, the first ended in an interception and the second was covered perfectly by clements. we have to have MUCH better blocking before we can vary our passing distances like that. until then, we need our receivers & TE's to make a lot more happen after the catch.

as an aside, a good running game usually comes with 120 rushing yards. A good passing game usually comes with more than 250 passing yards. you have to hit 250 often enough to be able to avg over 230 ypg. we aren't even close. Our passing game is similar to those of Seattle's, Kansas City's, Washinton's. Each of those teams will tell you their passing game hasn't been what they would have liked for it to be.

250 yards a game comes out to a 4,000 yard season (along with a probowl trip & MVP considerations). carr's on pace for around 3100 which is average and about what i expect. again, i'd like to see the routes go a little farther and those numbers increase a little, but we dont have the blocking to do it and havent had a running game until 3 weeks ago. everything has to work for that to happen, the running game has to suck defenders in in order to open space and legitimize play actions. the blocking has to hold up long enough for those routes to develope. carr's highest rating is on passes in the 11-20 yard range (106.9) and we know he's accurate enough to throw these, but it's also when we give up drive killing sacks.

again, i want more out of carr and the offense in general. but picking one stat out of a hat and blaming it all on carr because of it is just wrong. here's one to inforce my statements. tom brady has a much lower completion percentage (59.6 to carr's 69.5) and only barely higher average yards per attempt (6.87 to carr's 6.65) ... but is beating the snot out of carr in both TD's and yardage (19 to 9, and 2296 to 1896 ... with only 1 more completion than carr). yards after the catch, running game.

Wolf
11-24-2006, 09:42 PM
I had posted on another thread about our gameplan. Bills got 2 sacks and that was it (one Salaam did the sacking) but it was because we kept our TE's in to block.
3step drops and TE's staying in to block = dink and dunk

of course in madden we can throw the bomb consistantly

thunderkyss
11-24-2006, 09:57 PM
plain & simple, we cant block for that long. never could. if you want carr to throw 20-30 yard routes and a few bombs every game, we're going to lead the league in sacks again ... and with all of the injuries, we might break the record (again). we went deep twice against the bills, the first ended in an interception and the second was covered perfectly by clements. we have to have MUCH better blocking before we can vary our passing distances like that. until then, we need our receivers & TE's to make a lot more happen after the catch.

hmm...... let's see. OUr recievers run the 40 in 4.4 seconds, or somewhere there-a-bouts. that would work out to roughly 2.5 seconds for a 20 yard route........ when Carr gets the ball out on time, it's usually about 2.5 seconds. I think Carr is getting enough time.

again, i'd like to see the routes go a little farther and those numbers increase a little, but we dont have the blocking to do it and havent had a running game until 3 weeks ago.


hmm....... I've just finished another post somewhere, where I figured we've been averaging 122 ypg rushing over the last 6 weeks, including a 34 yard game against NYG. In other words, the running game may not look like what we want, but it's been there, for more than 3 weeks.


everything has to work for that to happen, the running game has to suck defenders in in order to open space and legitimize play actions.

the short passing game does the same thing. In the last 3 weeks, we haven't been able to get any YAC, because the LBs are already playing so close to the underneath route. Everybody knows who Owen Daniels is.. we are getting the one on ones we've been asking for........ but the ball is underthrown when it needs to be over the top, or overthrown when it needs to be underthrown.

the blocking has to hold up long enough for those routes to develope. carr's highest rating is on passes in the 11-20 yard range (106.9) and we know he's accurate enough to throw these, but it's also when we give up drive killing sacks.

that's another thing. It kills me when I watch other QBs come out throwing 10 & 15 yards down the field after they get sacked... but not ours. We will run the ball 9 times out of ten.

again, i want more out of carr and the offense in general. but picking one stat out of a hat and blaming it all on carr because of it is just wrong. here's one to inforce my statements.

just to clarify... I'm just saying Carr can & should play better........ I'm not blaming our record on David.

tom brady has a much lower completion percentage (59.6 to carr's 69.5) and only barely higher average yards per attempt (6.87 to carr's 6.65) ... but is beating the snot out of carr in both TD's and yardage (19 to 9, and 2296 to 1896 ... with only 1 more completion than carr). yards after the catch, running game.

no........ not yards after the catch. not at all. throwing the ball down field. Compare their yards per completion........ I understand looking at YPA would suggest our passing game is just as effiecient. which it may be.... but throwing for 4 yards on 3rd & 14 does nothing but confuse the issue.

NATHANHALE
11-24-2006, 10:08 PM
Uh let's see, we lost our running back the second day of summer camp. Then we lost our OLT prospect becuase the running backwas watching his crotch instead of the hole. Then we lost are other starting tackle. So now we're down to a rook RB and two that other organzations sniffed and threw back. A grey beard, who also was thrown back into the pile by another club is now on Carrs blind side. And a rook with a bad wheel on the other. Uh , even you say, I think under the curcumstances thats prety fair for this group at this time. Different ? The only way you could possibly say this season is the same as last season is if you've been under a rock the last three years. Good greif.

...so where are the results all that different?...please, lift the rock and enlighten me

NATHANHALE
11-24-2006, 10:19 PM
"but is beating the snot out of carr in both TD's and yardage (19 to 9, and 2296 to 1896 ... with only 1 more completion than carr). yards after the catch, running game."

JMO, but the biggest difference between us and the Pats is points-they've scored 15 more tds and have given up 9 fewer--a total swing of 24 tds, 144pts--imagine what our record would be with that kind of point variance!

Wolf
11-24-2006, 10:25 PM
hmm...... let's see. OUr recievers run the 40 in 4.4 seconds, or somewhere there-a-bouts. that would work out to roughly 2.5 seconds for a 20 yard route........ when Carr gets the ball out on time, it's usually about 2.5 seconds. I think Carr is getting enough time.



true but what if they get jammed at the line of scrimmage?adds what a second or two?

Runner
11-25-2006, 03:06 AM
ONly Flozelle, and AndreGurrode were drafted by the Dallas Cowboys. There wasn't a big bidding war to get Kyle Kosier from Detroit... or Marc Columbo... or Marco Rivera...... Kosier was actually cut from two teams before becoming a Cowboy. My point here, is if they were on this team, we'd be complaining about the washed up talent we brought to this team.


The Texans have had problems identifying o-line talent and developing what they have. Line play is poor to this day and contributes its fair share to the simplified offense we are running.

There are some signs this is changing, but there are now some older players on the line that will need replaced soon and our rookies at tackle are still unproven. I think we'll have a continuing lack of depth there for a few years too.

Second Honeymoon
11-25-2006, 11:07 AM
Despite all the excuses, Carr is still the problem with our offense. The dude just never grasped how to succeed in the NFL and to be frank is a crappy Quarterback.

It is time to move on. The sooner we move on, the sooner we can start moving forward. If we get another year of that joke of a QB I think I may go crazy.

One thing I do like is how the Carr apologists have kinda gone into hiding and seem to be starting to see the light....

Doug from the Woodlands

thunderkyss
11-25-2006, 12:19 PM
The Texans have had problems identifying o-line talent and developing what they have. Line play is poor to this day and contributes its fair share to the simplified offense we are running.

There are some signs this is changing, but there are now some older players on the line that will need replaced soon and our rookies at tackle are still unproven. I think we'll have a continuing lack of depth there for a few years too.

I've never believed that. Our offensive line has never been stellar, but they aren't & haven't been consistently the worse line ever. Sure, if we look at the sacks given up stat, it is easy to make that claim, but we've drafted OL every year but one, and brought in FA year after year after year..... There's only been one constant, and we've had the same results.

This year, David has been sacked 20 times..... I'd bet that number would be cut in half, if David had thrown the ball when his first instincts had told him to. Many of his sacks were after he loaded up to throw the ball, but pulled it back down, and decided not to throw it.

Before I go further, let me say that I believe David has had his best games when he is decisive. When he is thinking in the middle of a play, he looks indecisive, which leads to sacks.

Now those throws might have been completions, they might have been INTs, they might have been incomplete, they might have been the spark needed to boost our offense, or they might have been the dagger through our hearts, I don't know. I'm just saying they wouldn't have been sacks. David still would have been hit, but we'd all be looking at the stats, 10 sacks after 11 games, and saying that our OLine is dominant........ (which wouldn't be true).

But I do agree, if David's first instinct is to throw the ball, then he needs to throw the ball. If it's intercepted, no one will blame him if it's tipped by Aj, and lands in the hands of PacManJones...... but if he just didn't see Chris Hope, or if he threw it into triple coverage, or underthrew it, he would get the blame just like any adult QB in the league.

Runner
11-25-2006, 01:35 PM
I've never believed that.


You haven't believed what? That our offensive line has played poorly for 4 1/2 years? Wow.

My pointing out of the o-line problem isn't a defense of the Carr. More than one area can be poor on a team with the Texans record for the past few years.

thunderkyss
11-25-2006, 03:09 PM
More than one area can be poor

I believe that.....

and while I don't think we had a superbowl winning Offensive line, or many probowl candidates on our offensive line, I don't believe they have played any worse than any team with avg talent on the line. I reference the Cowboys offensive line, they ain't all that. But depending on who their QB is, they look like ProBowlers, or they look like the worst line in the league.

I also find it curious that David's best year was a pretty poor year for our offensive line, where I believe David was sacked 44 times.......... a very high number for sure.

I don't believe David is the root of all evil....... that year proves (at least to me) that David can in fact perform at a high level. All I'm saying is that our QB can play better.

thunderkyss
11-25-2006, 03:24 PM
Do you even watch the games? The offense has improved and prevented sacks more this year than last year. Are you this much thinking Carr is infoulable? The only offensive lineman they need to get rid of is Salaam. They need Charles Spencer back.

You are wrong on so many levels, it isn't even funny. Runner is not defending Carr in this thread.......

Flanagan has been our worse offensive lineman, and Salaam has been one of our best. The only problem (real problem, and not fan generated problems) with Salaam is that he is old, and his durability is in question.

Runner
11-25-2006, 04:10 PM
Do you even watch the games? The offense has improved and prevented sacks more this year than last year. Are you this much thinking Carr is infoulable? The only offensive lineman they need to get rid of is Salaam. They need Charles Spencer back.

Do you even watch the games? Snappy comeback! I can't even come up with a response to such chilling, keen logic!

The offense is improved over last year? If last year's pathetic performance is the standard, yes it is improved. That doesn't mean it is good, it means it is less pathetic. This offense is far worse than the 2004 version, especially the first half of 2004.

Do I think Carr is infallible (if that's the word you meant)? No, I don't. I was patient with him for three years, but the modest improvements he has shown this year aren't enough, IMO. He shoulders as much blame as the weak line. The o-line and Carr can both be less than adequate at the same time - the Texans are bad enough to have multiple weaknesses.

Our offensive line can't consistently run block or pass block.

Watching the games shows me Carr's one small area of improvement - he throws the ball before the rush gets to him now instead of taking a sack. The line is barely adequate for these 5-7 yards passes. Compare our line's "pocket" to that of other teams. Other teams give their QBs a yard or two to move around in. Out pocket provides the QB about two feet with it shrinking rapidly. Some fans have such low expectations they see "no sack" equating to excellent line play.

Wolf
11-25-2006, 04:23 PM
exactly runner
and what I read is we are still keeping TE's to help block
so hmm, that affects the passing game too.

Honoring Earl 34
11-25-2006, 04:29 PM
I wonder what an overhead view of an opponents defense would look like compared to same defenses against most teams .

Runner
11-25-2006, 04:31 PM
Runner is not defending Carr in this thread.......


Thanks for reading. :cool:

Honoring Earl 34
11-25-2006, 04:45 PM
Carr in my opinion is a classic drop back passer who happens to be pretty mobile . In other words Bledsoe with wheels . Thats his style of play it will always be that way . There also has been debates about his pocket awareness aka the little alarm clock and his vision . I'm still not convinced his teamates think he's all that not since the Gary Walker he needs to stop bringing his Dad to practice stuff that surfaced .

Carr may have been something if Boselli and Ryan Young had panned out but that did'nt happen . So since last year we are still trying to fit a square peg in a round whole . If they want to keep Carr then they are going to have to build a top OL , if they are going to address the defense first then they need a QB who reads and recognizes quicker ... you make the call .

Runner
11-25-2006, 04:59 PM
Carr in my opinion...

Interesting thoughts. How fast can a solid o-line with enough depth to withstand an injury or two be built?

Honoring Earl 34
11-25-2006, 05:17 PM
A good OL with depth probably means ( assuming Spencer and Winston pan out ) we need three more players and three more years .

Runner
11-26-2006, 12:55 PM
Our "much improved" offensive line's pass blocking is just a little better than it's horrendous run blocking today.

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2006, 12:57 PM
I think the Jets are playing with 13 players today .

Runner
11-26-2006, 01:35 PM
In one half the o-line has given up three sacks and is blocking well enough for our RBs to average 2 yards/carry.

I think it is safe to say they have some culpability for our bad play.

Honoring Earl 34
11-26-2006, 01:41 PM
I think a 6 pt lead is like 26 right now . I not confident in our half time adjustments either .