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doughboy
12-24-2006, 04:23 PM
4th quarter baby

TNTitan
12-24-2006, 04:24 PM
yes!!

kbourda
12-24-2006, 04:32 PM
Wow. Just amazing. I hate the fact VY is not here where he should be leading this team to the playoffs. I respect the job Jeff Fisher and Norm Chow are doing with Vince in installing plays that makes him feel comfortable so the team can thrive.

gg no re
12-24-2006, 04:42 PM
I don't intend to take anything away from what VY's done so far, but... I heard Dick Jauron had a huge retard moment at the end of the game. Like, huge.

Ihategeeks
12-24-2006, 04:47 PM
Well, this thread sure was intelligent.

doughboy
12-24-2006, 04:49 PM
huge retard moment .

And thats putting it nicely. GOD LOVES VY.

BattleRedToro
12-24-2006, 04:54 PM
If his name was Bucky Richardson he woudln't have so many haters.

He wouldn't have as many with man-crushes either. You would have apathy for the most part.

Ihategeeks
12-24-2006, 04:55 PM
I don't intend to take anything away from what VY's done so far, but... I heard Dick Jauron had a huge retard moment at the end of the game. Like, huge.

The huge retard moment is when a NFL team decided to make him a head coach.

kbourda
12-24-2006, 05:00 PM
I just read what happened. Bills driving into a 20 mph win 29 yards away (which makes it about 44 yard FG in the wind). I don't know, tough call. I would have gone for the kick. But I don't live in Buffalo, so I don't know how strong a 20 mph wind would be to knock a football off of its trajectory.

gg no re
12-24-2006, 05:03 PM
Okay just seeing why he went for it on 4th and 5 at the 30 instead of going for the FG.

Doughboy, you have promising quotation skills, but you have much to learn, young padawan. :)

Eli manning one of the best...asses Ive seen.

Keep at it.

Titan "Tack" Fan
12-24-2006, 05:40 PM
Vince was amazing today. 3 Total TDs and 0 turnovers. What a great leader.

doughboy
12-24-2006, 05:45 PM
Okay just seeing why he went for it on 4th and 5 at the 30 instead of going for the FG.

Doughboy, you have promising quotation skills, but you have much to learn, young padawan. :)



Keep at it.


HAHA:yahoo: .... I do my best.:ok:

MrMeToo
12-24-2006, 05:57 PM
Vince was amazing today. 3 Total TDs and 0 turnovers. What a great leader.

Yup

real
12-24-2006, 06:41 PM
lmao, ridiculous play at the end of the half by young.

lmao @ the rookie who just won his sixth game in a row....

TNTitan
12-24-2006, 07:08 PM
well guess no one here was watching the game. PUNTS going that direction were averaging 29 yards. No way a 44FG would have been made

Second Honeymoon
12-24-2006, 07:11 PM
Vince Young does not suck.

Napa Auto Parts
12-24-2006, 10:42 PM
That kid vince young is awsome another monster day which we could have somebody like him.

Huge
12-25-2006, 11:29 AM
Where's AlbinoRat been?

Runner
12-25-2006, 12:34 PM
The Titans offense may be beginning to gel. I didn't see Young's 30-40 yard TD run yet, but from what I've heard it was a pretty impressive team effort. Young was back to pass, and just as he was deciding to run the RT, RG, and center all took off and led him down the field. They are getting to know how to play together - they sensed it was time to go.

Pretty scary.

Nawzer
12-25-2006, 01:07 PM
I just watched the highlights on nfl.com and that 4th and 2 run was amazing. He just glides his way to the endzone. His o-line did an awesome job blocking for him. He's amazing.

kastofsna
12-25-2006, 02:17 PM
the run wasn't that impressive from an individual standpoint. the team played it perfectly, including young, but he had a wall in front of him, which you wouldn't expect on an improvised play.

Runner
12-25-2006, 02:32 PM
the run wasn't that impressive from an individual standpoint. the team played it perfectly, including young, but he had a wall in front of him, which you wouldn't expect on an improvised play.

No doubt - that's what started this little off-shoot of the conversation.

kastofsna
12-25-2006, 02:32 PM
reading comprehension is key.

BetOnVYinCantonEasy
12-25-2006, 03:30 PM
Hmmm, I can't help but wonder how many QB's could make that run even if the play were designed. Designed, improvised, whatever--that play does not occur without VY at the helm. That was vintage VY. He will make plenty of plays completely of his own accord and that will make it possible to design numerous plays that use the entirety of the team to powerful effect. He makes his team better and they, in turn make him even more effective. One of the biggest "it" qualities VY has is this synergetic effect which he has ignited with every team he has ever played with. Through respect, leadership, humility, ability, and voracious work ethic on and off the field, he wills his teammates to meet their maximum potential, and that allows him to display the totality of his abilities.

I don't care if it's a Pinto or a Ferrari. If Mario Andretti is behind the wheel, it will perform better than if just about anyone else is driving it.

old football fan
12-25-2006, 04:02 PM
VY is a very talented QB and his running ability is unquesitioned, but I don;t believe. He will have a good career and one maybe two superbowl games. Only one running QB has ever won the SB. Know who that was?

281
12-25-2006, 06:56 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/lastcall?page=lastcall/week16

"Vince Young led the Texans to a 29-29 win over the Bills."

:embarrass

BetOnVYinCantonEasy
12-25-2006, 07:15 PM
I can think of three scrambling QB's that won the SB. A few of the media are starting to catch on with comparisons to one of them, namely Steve Young. In addition to Steve Young, you have John Elway and Roger Staubach. The biggest mistake people make, I think, looking at VY is to consider him to be a "running QB".

I will assume that you didn't watch him at UT with regularity. Most NFL fans probably didn't watch him weekly. Check his progression over three years and look at his passing stats. Yes he runs, but he is a pass first QB with a freakish knack of awarness as to where pressure is coming from. From his first to his third year his passing skill developed phenomenally; he could throw from the pocket or on the run, and he knew when to throw and when to run.

He is already showing flashes of all those skills in an abbreviated rookie season. His first year in the NFL should be like his first in the NCAA; he's learning a new offense at a whole new level of football. And yet, he's already 8-4, he's already beginning to follow his progressions competently, even exceptionally at times. He's already looking off his receivers well, especially in three of the last four games. He already suggests tweaks in the offensive game plan to Fisher and Chow based on what is going on in game time. Most importantly--and I think a lot of people miss this--because the game is slowing down for him so quickly, he is already beginning to be able to see an open man and yet see an open running lane and quickly determine which has a better chance at being successful initially as well as which will get the defense off-balance more in terms of successive plays to follow in the game. This is what everyone is referring to as, "It looks like the Rose Bowl all over again." He did this constantly at UT in his second and third years. Its not a fluke; he could see the field so clearly that he often had an open man but had the time and the poise to make a decision as to if running would be potentially more sucessful...and he was usually right. (You are going to love watching him and be amazed by how much room for growth he has and will display in the next two years. You'll come to believe.) And he is only a rookie, with many unproven young players around him, some sub-par to average players at critical skill positions, and numerous injuries to overcome.

The rookie who wasn't even suppose to start this year, or be successful for three years according to the pundits has taken an 0-5 team which many thought was the worst team in the NFL, playing the toughest schedule, and positioned them on the brink of the playoffs with a game to go and a chance to get in. And if they do get in? They've beaten Indy and played them to within a point, they lost to the Jets by less than a touchdown before he was starting, they were a blocked FG away from beating Balt., they will have beaten New England....and he is just a rookie.

He brings his team back like Elway, he leads his team like Montana, he scrambles/runs like Vick or S. Young. And I predict within the next two years he'll start to make many Farve-like passes, without nearly so many interceptions. His rookie stats are already better than Elway, Marino, and McNabb, in fewer games. When its all said and done he will revolutionize the QB position--I don't doubt that at all. But for now, he is just a rookie....so take a look at this compilation of information put together by an astute poster over at Hornfans.com. In the last five games, only three QBs have a higher PER in the NFL, and that does not take into account his rushing....basically, VY, a rookie, with less than stellar talent, has been the best QB in the NFL over the last five games, the playoff drive, and that includes his "horrible" game from last week.

"I'm sure this is too much data for most--but it surprised and interested me. Key takeaway--Vince is stomping everyone's butt in every meaningful QB way. I think he's 3rd in PER, and I'd bet that if we look at Huck's formula that includes rushing he'd be #1 by a good margin.

Vince (Rookie) : 79-124 (63.7%), 898 yards, 6 TD's, 3 INT's. 91.40 PER. 38 rushes, 298 yards, 3 TD's. 5-0 record.

Cutler (rookie, started playing/starting 4 games ago): 60-105 (57.1%), 771 yards, 8 TD's, 4 INT's. 89.82 PER. 10 rushes, 19 yards, 0 TD's. 2-2 record.

Leinart (rookie, injured today and out next week): 96-157 (61.2%), 1199 yards, 5 TD's, 5 INT's. 82.21 PER. 6 rushes, 20 yards, 0 TD's. 3-2 record.

Gradkowski (rookie pulled for Rattay last week and didn't play this week, so 4 games): 48-89 (53.9%), 453 yards, 0 TD's, 5 INT's. 44.83 PER. 12 rushes, 51 yards, 0 TD's. 0-4 record.

Alex Smith (2nd-year): 71-136 (52.2%), 872 yards, 5 TD's, 8 INT's. 60.06 PER. 9 rushes, 37 yards, 1 TD. 1-4 record.

Jason Campbell (2nd-year): 70-142 (49.3%), 881 yards, 6 TD's, 5 INT's. 68.43 PER. 15 rushes, 71 yards, 0 TD's. 2-3 record.

D. Anderson (2nd-year, 4 games): 66-117 (56.4%), 793 yards, 5 TD's, 8 INT's. 63.09 PER. 4 rushes, 47 yards, 0 TD's. 1-3 record.

A. Walter (2nd-year, 5 games but he sat 3 in the middle): 77-128 (60.2%), 752 yards, 0 TD’s, 4 INT’s. 63.67 PER. 3 rushes, -1 yards, 0 TD’s. 0-5 record.

Rivers (3rd-year, 1st-year starter) : 64-136 (47.1%), 850 yards, 5 TD's, 3 INT's. 70.40 PER. 18 rushes, 3 yards, 0 TD's. 5-0 record.

Roethlisberger (3rd-year): 69-135 (51.1%), 918 yards, 5 TD's, 5 INT's. 69.92 PER. 14 rushes, 50 yards, 2 TD's. 3-2 record.

Losnan (3rd-year): 84-132 (63.6%), 976 yards, 8 TD's, 5 INT's. 90.34 PER. 12 rushes, 36 yards, 0 TD's. 3-2 record.

Eli Manning (3rd-year): 96-162 (59.3%), 941 yards, 7 TD's, 5 INT's. 77.21 PER. 9 rushes, 22 yards. 0 TD's. 1-4 record.

Palmer (4th-year): 101-160 (63.1%), 1191 yards, 8 TD's, 6 INT's. 86.74 PER. 8 rushes, 14 yards, 0 TD's. 2-3 record.

Romo (4th-year, doesn't include 12/25 Eagles game yet, so it's 4 games): 70-125 (56.0%), 1090 yards, 8 TD's, 5 INT's. 89.75 PER. 11 rushes, 6 yards, 0 TD's. 3-1 record.

Grossman (4th-year): 83-156 (53.2%), 1046 yards, 5 TD's, 6 INT's. 69.02 PER. 9 rushes, 12 yards, 0 TD's. 4-1 record.

Carr (5th-year): 95-142 (66.9%), 785 yards, 2 TD's, 5 INT's. 70.89 PER. 11 rushes, 35 yards, 0 TD's. 2-3 record.

Harrington (5th-year--not including 12/25 Dolphins game so it's 4 games): 69-118 (58.5%), 690 yards, 5 TD's, 5 INT's. 71.65 PER. 7 rushes, 12 yards. 2-2 record."

Vick (6th-year): 56-107 (52.3%), 707 yards, 6 TD's, 4 INT's. 76.34 PER. 37 rushes, 318 yards, 0 TD's. 2-3 record.

I didn't bother listing anyone with 5+ years except Vick. Including the veterans, Vince's past five games compare favorably with any QB in the NFL.

Peyton Manning (101.82 PER), Tom Brady (89.85 PER), & Steve McNair (95.95 PER) were the only ones I'd put ahead of him, statistically. In the key stat, however, Peyton is 2-3, Brady's 4-1, and McNair's 4-1 over the past five games. Only Rivers can match his 5-0 mark."

And this doesn't take into account VY's unique WILL to win. He is a living, breathing football jedi. I will tell you right now that I believe, when he is done, he will have been the best there has ever been.

old football fan
12-25-2006, 07:40 PM
Gee I believe Mack Brown said they changed the offense at TU so Vince Baby could run it more. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

BetOnVYinCantonEasy
12-25-2006, 08:59 PM
Yes, you do have it wrong, essentially. VY went to them and convinced them to change to offense to showcase his method of passing/running as well as giving him more freedom at the line to determine the course of the play based one what the defense set up and did initially after the snap. Basically, at first they tried (GD tried) to force him into a more traditional offense/ QB style that limited him to staying in the pocket more and shunned, respectively, as a designed play, the run. VY convinced them to let him roam outside the pocket as well as stay in the pocket, throw on the move, and take the run when it was the best available play depending on the read on the defense. From that point on, he became the dominant college force the nation witnessed. The decision to let VY control more of the decision process, use his scrambling prowess outside of the pocket, as well as implement running plays designed to showcase his legs led to amazing production in the air and on the ground. Both aspects of his game improved from that point on, but most noticably, his passing game. But, he still looked to pass first unless the play was designed specifically for him to run. Many, most, of the time, however, it was his job to react to the defense and pass/run based on what they did. Don't believe me, don't care if you do.....look at the stats and the film, they don't lie. Basically, if VY had a NFL coach that didn't recognize that the old "prototypical" QB style is not his style, and not at all necessary, they would have stunted his growth. Fortunately, they saw the tape, they understood it, and they are acting accordingly. Smart coaches. Yep, you were wrong. Just like more than one "running" QB has won a SuperBowl

BetOnVYinCantonEasy
12-25-2006, 09:08 PM
One more thing. When you look up the stats, remember that in most games he would come out during the third quarter, many times after his first offensive drive of the half. So, those freakish, never before accomplished pass/run stats are based off of less than three quarters play on average.

It wasn't an offense designed for a running QB, it was an offense designed with the awareness that the QB could run.

kastofsna
12-26-2006, 12:34 AM
the offense was changed at texas because of young's inability to pick up the pro-style system. doesn't really matter now though.

mexican_texan
12-26-2006, 12:38 AM
VY's strenght is, has been, and always will be the ability to carry his team on his back, even if he puts the team in the hole, he'll jump out. I doubt he'll be a Peyton Manning anytime soon.

Drager
12-26-2006, 12:56 AM
I'm not a pro-scout nor do I pretend to be. But here's my $0.02 on what I've been able to see of VY in games against the Texans & the few games I've seen on the NFL package Short-cuts on the dish.

At UT, VY made 1-read & ran. In the Pro's, he's making one read & usually throwing to his 1st read. He hasn't run as much as in college. I'm sure the coaching staff has told him to only run when necessary. While there's no denying his physical attributes, I don't think VY is a "great" passer. Right now, to me, he's average. VY throws best making short throws. To me, I don't think he throws the deep routes very well. Not to say he hasn't or can't complete deep passes, but they don't seem consistently accurate. That could be why the Titans don't throw the ball deep alot. Also, I don't think he can read defenses all that well. I think the coaches have set the offense up so he can have the most success with his first read & not have to think too much. I think the coaching he's getting over there has helped him alot. His stat's aren't great, but he's done just enough to get his team winning. However, I think I still would have chosen Leinart over VY if I were drafting. The throws Leinart was making against the then vaunted Bears D on that Monday night game was quite impressive. Too bad they went ultra-coservative in the 2nd half. He carved the Bears D before they had all the injuries they do now. That was impressive. I don't think VY would have had that kind of game passing against them. Just my opinion. In the end, only time will tell if VY is bad, mediocre, or super.

kbourda
12-26-2006, 01:22 AM
His stat's aren't great, but he's done just enough to get his team winning.

At the end of the day, what else matters?

Dr. Toro
12-26-2006, 09:23 AM
At the end of the day, what else matters?

Well, that's true... but I think his stats are better than most imagine. He's second in the NFL in yards per carry, 1st among QBs in rushing TDs, has run for tons of first downs on 3rd down (not sure the exact rank), and has a nearly identical passer rating to Peyton Manning's rookie year. He's got a passer rating of 90 for his last 5 games, and none below 70 in that span. I think his play over that span has been more indicative of his ability than the whole season, as he's got a better grasp of the game/system and is running now.

Huge
12-26-2006, 10:06 AM
I've never been a fan of the NFL's QB passer rating's formula. But I'm sure there will always be somebody that will point to Vince's 69.7 QB rating and use it as evidence.

But then you look at his QB rating progression per month:
September - 56.4
October - 61.6
November - 67.2
December - 84.9

Then look at his completion percentage (biggest factor in QB ratings):
September - 41.7
October - 48.9
November - 50.8
December - 61.8

Then look at his rushing average:
September - 4.8
October - 5.0
November - 6.1
December - 8.2

Anybody else see a trend?

All this for somebody that was supposed to take 3 years before he'd be ready for the league.

But, but, but....his wonderlic score....

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 10:24 AM
I've never been a fan of the NFL's QB passer rating's formula. But I'm sure there will always be somebody that will point to Vince's 69.7 QB rating and use it as evidence.

But then you look at his QB rating progression per month:
September - 56.4
October - 61.6
November - 67.2
December - 84.9

Then look at his completion percentage (biggest factor in QB ratings):
September - 41.7
October - 48.9
November - 50.8
December - 61.8

Then look at his rushing average:
September - 4.8
October - 5.0
November - 6.1
December - 8.2

Anybody else see a trend?

All this for somebody that was supposed to take 3 years before he'd be ready for the league.

But, but, but....his wonderlic score....

The Wonderlic is a great indicator for heart and leadership. :rolleyes:

real
12-26-2006, 10:36 AM
VY throws best making short throws. To me, I don't think he throws the deep routes very well.

I'm not a pro-scout nor do I pretend to be.


Well......



Atleast you got one thing right....

kastofsna
12-26-2006, 10:47 AM
young DOESN'T throw a great deep ball. it's generally more of a jump ball than anything. he can wing it 60 yards, but it's hardly accurate.

kastofsna
12-26-2006, 10:48 AM
I've never been a fan of the NFL's QB passer rating's formula. But I'm sure there will always be somebody that will point to Vince's 69.7 QB rating and use it as evidence.

But then you look at his QB rating progression per month:
September - 56.4
October - 61.6
November - 67.2
December - 84.9

Then look at his completion percentage (biggest factor in QB ratings):
September - 41.7
October - 48.9
November - 50.8
December - 61.8

Then look at his rushing average:
September - 4.8
October - 5.0
November - 6.1
December - 8.2

Anybody else see a trend?

All this for somebody that was supposed to take 3 years before he'd be ready for the league.

But, but, but....his wonderlic score....
heh, you people keep going back to the wonderlic and all of that, but wasn't young the first QB taken in the draft? in the end, it didn't seem to bother teams that much apparently.

also i'm intrigued by the constant irony of people misspelling "wonderlic" over and over (not you Huge).

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 11:12 AM
also i'm intrigued by the constant irony of people misspelling "wonderlic" over and over (not you Huge).

I am also intrigued with members who cannot spell their own name in their avatar. :)

aj.
12-26-2006, 11:23 AM
young DOESN'T throw a great deep ball. it's generally more of a jump ball than anything. he can wing it 60 yards, but it's hardly accurate.

I guess his deep toss to Bennett in the 3rd quarter of the most recent Texans game was just luck then, huh? That one was about as perfectly placed as you can get.

Vince is a very good QB and barring injury he will probably be a thorn in the Texans' side for many years to come. Time to move on with a fresh debate.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 12:21 PM
anyone who says Vince Young is anything other than the best young QB in the league is seriously biased and completely ignorant. Don't try and dissect his game with stats and throws you saw in highlights on ESPN or the local News shows. Vince Young is A MAN. He just mans up every time at the end of the game and gets the job done and secures the win. The guy is just incredible.

Vince Young makes the NFL look like Nintendo. He is easily my favorite player in the league right now and his will to win is immense. His legend is already of Paul Bunyan proportions.

I don't care who he plays for. He just owns the field. Period. Fun to watch and just a treasure to behold.....

HOOK EM

Doug from The Woodlands

kastofsna
12-26-2006, 12:34 PM
I am also intrigued with members who cannot spell their own name in their avatar. :)
that avatar was made by someone else. i even pointed his misspelling out to him immediately. :)
I guess his deep toss to Bennett in the 3rd quarter of the most recent Texans game was just luck then, huh? That one was about as perfectly placed as you can get.
7 of 44 on passes thrown over 20 yards this year. that's brutal.

srstex
12-26-2006, 12:55 PM
I hate VY because I'm jealous, he's in a playoff hunt and we are not. As to VY's talent, he definitely has a truck load, but so does ( Did ) Culpepper, & Vick and both had a lot of help to make them look good, just like VY. Team is the answer, coaching is the answer, filling the one missing piece. Doesn't anyone else look at this and see that the Titans dropped McNair for VY, so McNair's team is 12-3 and in the playoffs and the Titans are fighting. So to take the Bush-Young-Williams(Carr) argument further-McNair is the reason the Ravens are 12-3 their defense has nothing to do with it right? Team, VY has leadership, so does McNair, VY can run, so can McNair, I believe VY will be a good QB, I believe Bush will be a good RB, and yes I believe Mario will be the man, I do not believe any of these or anyone else can win by themselves against a team of eleven.
I do not have spell check, nor do I believe that spelling should be anywhere close to the top of the topics written about after the Colt's loss. Mario caused the Fumble.

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 01:05 PM
that avatar was made by someone else. i even pointed his misspelling out to him immediately. :)

I know the history, just giving our beached Dolphin fan a little ribbin'. :)

real
12-26-2006, 01:15 PM
7 of 44 on passes thrown over 20 yards this year. that's brutal.

Way to use stats to prove he throws a bad deep ball.....


:secret: ......I can tell you haven't seen him play much, otherwise you wouldn't be making statements like this....

kastofsna
12-26-2006, 01:17 PM
you're right, he throws a great deep pass, what am i thinking? sure he's completed 16 percent of any pass he's thrown over 20 yards, but that's just a misnomer in the stats. STATS ALWAYS LIE. VINCE IS GOD. ME LIKE VINCE. DUHHHHHHHHH i apologize.

real
12-26-2006, 01:20 PM
you're right, he throws a great deep pass, what am i thinking? sure he's completed 16 percent of any pass he's thrown over 20 yards, but that's just a misnomer in the stats. STATS ALWAYS LIE. VINCE IS GOD. ME LIKE VINCE. DUHHHHHHHHH i apologize.

Good job jumping to extremes....

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 01:32 PM
you're right, he throws a great deep pass, what am i thinking? sure he's completed 16 percent of any pass he's thrown over 20 yards, but that's just a misnomer in the stats. STATS ALWAYS LIE. VINCE IS GOD. ME LIKE VINCE. DUHHHHHHHHH i apologize.

Vince has a long way to go on his deep ball, short ball, and his 10-15 yard out route. He has a long way to go because he is a rookie and a work in progress. However, when its 3rd down or 4th down the dude either A.) makes the big pass or B.) runs it down the other teams throat, 9 times out of 10. I will take that any day over stats or QB rating.

Let's also remember that VY has little to no talent in the WR corps. He doesnt even have the teams #1 Tight End healthy. Ben Troupe has been hurt just about all year and its been the Bo Scaife Show at TE for most of the year. Bo Scaife is a pretty good TE but he aint exactly Dave Casper. Can you name a healthy Titans WR off the top of your head? Exactly, didn't think so.

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 01:36 PM
Carr (yes thats right David Carr) has outperformed him bigtime.

Quoted for entertainment.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 01:47 PM
Quoted for entertainment.

I...must...resist...urge....

*looks up to the sky with arms outstretched*

KHAN!!!!!

mexican_texan
12-26-2006, 01:58 PM
I wonder....does any QB have a worse WR corps than VY? I don't like the guy, but I respect him...give him his cred.

...VY>Carr
:stirpot:

disaacks3
12-26-2006, 02:00 PM
Vince has a long way to go on his deep ball, short ball, and his 10-15 yard out route. He has a long way to go because he is a rookie and a work in progress. However, when its 3rd down or 4th down the dude either A.) makes the big pass or B.) runs it down the other teams throat, 9 times out of 10. I will take that any day over stats or QB rating.
The Titans have a 90% 3rd & 4th down conversion %, that's PHENOMENAL!...it's also not true.

VY is doing better than expected....for a rookie. Teams win games, VY was 'pedestrian' until the final series in the Texans game, and wasn't much of a help in their next win (Defense won that one, and VY doesn't play "D"). He's got great potential, but he's still raw. Hey, if I was a Titan fan, I'd be ecstatic too, but I'd still hold off on that bust in Canton for awhile.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 02:13 PM
The Titans have a 90% 3rd & 4th down conversion %, that's PHENOMENAL!...it's also not true.

VY is doing better than expected....for a rookie. Teams win games, VY was 'pedestrian' until the final series in the Texans game, and wasn't much of a help in their next win (Defense won that one, and VY doesn't play "D"). He's got great potential, but he's still raw. Hey, if I was a Titan fan, I'd be ecstatic too, but I'd still hold off on that bust in Canton for awhile.

I would hope you would realize that I was not quoting it as an official statistic. It's called exagerration or telling a fisherman's tale. But if you are hung up on statistics that actually show whether a QB is effective or not, well then here is one statistic for you. He has RAN for more 1st downs on 3rd or 4th down than ANY player in the league besides LaDanian Tomlinson and I believe Frank Gore. Also please bear in mind that he didn't start the first 3 games of the season. That is both PHENOMENAL and true. Don't hate on VY. He took an 0-3 team, lost his first two starts and then led his team into the playoff race. That is undeniably strong evidence that shows how valuable he is and how effective he is on field and as locker room leader.

kastofsna
12-26-2006, 02:34 PM
remember kids: never use stats when talking about vince young! unless you find one that fits your argument.

mexican_texan
12-26-2006, 02:36 PM
actually, never use stats when talking about Vince Young unless it speaks well of the second coming.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 02:39 PM
remember kids: never use stats when talking about vince young! unless you find one that fits your argument.

here is a stat dolphin fan. 8 wins in his last 9 starts. He has won 3 more games in a 9 game span than David has won in ANY 16 game span of David's. Remember David only started for 5 of the 7 wins in Year 3. Oh and this is in his rookie year. Last time I checked the stat that matters is winning. Case closed. Calling someone 'kids' may get a chuckle in the Dolphins message board, but on the Texans' board it just shows that you have no argument.

real
12-26-2006, 02:40 PM
remember kids: never use stats when talking about vince young! unless you find one that fits your argument.

There you go jumping to extremes again....

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 02:41 PM
remember kids: never use stats when talking about vince young! unless you find one that fits your argument.

Drugs are bad. Vince Young is good. M'kay?

ATX
12-26-2006, 02:56 PM
Here's a stat...

Texans beat Colts for first time in 5 years. Key play early in the game was a forced fumble by Mario Williams. Titans have beaten the Colts without VY,we have never beaten the Colts without Williams.

I can't say that VY on the Texans would have done the same. The rise of the Texans and future playoff chances include beating the Colts and winning the division.

On a side note, I loved VY at Texas. But We were damned if we did and damned if we didn't. Take away a good running back in Travis Henry, a better line than the Texans, a 60 yard field goal, and a defense that has created some huge turnovers and VY looks average.

Sorry if i got off topic, but VY is not God after 1 season. Not saying he is bad or doesn't have a good future, but I'm not going to judge a player after 1 season.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 03:27 PM
Here's a stat...

Texans beat Colts for first time in 5 years. Key play early in the game was a forced fumble by Mario Williams. Titans have beaten the Colts without VY,we have never beaten the Colts without Williams.

I can't say that VY on the Texans would have done the same. The rise of the Texans and future playoff chances include beating the Colts and winning the division.

On a side note, I loved VY at Texas. But We were damned if we did and damned if we didn't. Take away a good running back in Travis Henry, a better line than the Texans, a 60 yard field goal, and a defense that has created some huge turnovers and VY looks average.

Sorry if i got off topic, but VY is not God after 1 season. Not saying he is bad or doesn't have a good future, but I'm not going to judge a player after 1 season.

I hear ya but I am just pointing to the W/L column. The Titans were circling the drain at 0-3 and Vince comes in and has them in the playoff hunt as a rookie. I don't buy the argument that the Titans have more talent than Texans. They have more talent at QB and obviously in their secondary. Other than that, they are pretty equitable.

Oh, as for him being God after one season. I equate him more a a Paul Bunyan type. Half legend half truth but all about winning football games. The league is predicated on adjustments so maybe the league catches up, but its tough to replicate VY in practice.

old football fan
12-26-2006, 04:00 PM
I can think of three scrambling QB's that won the SB. A few of the media are starting to catch on with comparisons to one of them, namely Steve Young. In addition to Steve Young, you have John Elway and Roger Staubach. The biggest mistake people make, I think, looking at VY is to consider him to be a "running QB".

I will assume that you didn't watch him at UT with regularity. Most NFL fans probably didn't watch him weekly. Check his progression over three years and look at his passing stats. Yes he runs, but he is a pass first QB with a freakish knack of awarness as to where pressure is coming from. From his first to his third year his passing skill developed phenomenally; he could throw from the pocket or on the run, and he knew when to throw and when to run.

He is already showing flashes of all those skills in an abbreviated rookie season. His first year in the NFL should be like his first in the NCAA; he's learning a new offense at a whole new level of football. And yet, he's already 8-4, he's already beginning to follow his progressions competently, even exceptionally at times. He's already looking off his receivers well, especially in three of the last four games. He already suggests tweaks in the offensive game plan to Fisher and Chow based on what is going on in game time. Most importantly--and I think a lot of people miss this--because the game is slowing down for him so quickly, he is already beginning to be able to see an open man and yet see an open running lane and quickly determine which has a better chance at being successful initially as well as which will get the defense off-balance more in terms of successive plays to follow in the game. This is what everyone is referring to as, "It looks like the Rose Bowl all over again." He did this constantly at UT in his second and third years. Its not a fluke; he could see the field so clearly that he often had an open man but had the time and the poise to make a decision as to if running would be potentially more sucessful...and he was usually right. (You are going to love watching him and be amazed by how much room for growth he has and will display in the next two years. You'll come to believe.) And he is only a rookie, with many unproven young players around him, some sub-par to average players at critical skill positions, and numerous injuries to overcome.

The rookie who wasn't even suppose to start this year, or be successful for three years according to the pundits has taken an 0-5 team which many thought was the worst team in the NFL, playing the toughest schedule, and positioned them on the brink of the playoffs with a game to go and a chance to get in. And if they do get in? They've beaten Indy and played them to within a point, they lost to the Jets by less than a touchdown before he was starting, they were a blocked FG away from beating Balt., they will have beaten New England....and he is just a rookie.

He brings his team back like Elway, he leads his team like Montana, he scrambles/runs like Vick or S. Young. And I predict within the next two years he'll start to make many Farve-like passes, without nearly so many interceptions. His rookie stats are already better than Elway, Marino, and McNabb, in fewer games. When its all said and done he will revolutionize the QB position--I don't doubt that at all. But for now, he is just a rookie....so take a look at this compilation of information put together by an astute poster over at Hornfans.com. In the last five games, only three QBs have a higher PER in the NFL, and that does not take into account his rushing....basically, VY, a rookie, with less than stellar talent, has been the best QB in the NFL over the last five games, the playoff drive, and that includes his "horrible" game from last week.

"I'm sure this is too much data for most--but it surprised and interested me. Key takeaway--Vince is stomping everyone's butt in every meaningful QB way. I think he's 3rd in PER, and I'd bet that if we look at Huck's formula that includes rushing he'd be #1 by a good margin.

Vince (Rookie) : 79-124 (63.7%), 898 yards, 6 TD's, 3 INT's. 91.40 PER. 38 rushes, 298 yards, 3 TD's. 5-0 record.

Cutler (rookie, started playing/starting 4 games ago): 60-105 (57.1%), 771 yards, 8 TD's, 4 INT's. 89.82 PER. 10 rushes, 19 yards, 0 TD's. 2-2 record.

Leinart (rookie, injured today and out next week): 96-157 (61.2%), 1199 yards, 5 TD's, 5 INT's. 82.21 PER. 6 rushes, 20 yards, 0 TD's. 3-2 record.

Gradkowski (rookie pulled for Rattay last week and didn't play this week, so 4 games): 48-89 (53.9%), 453 yards, 0 TD's, 5 INT's. 44.83 PER. 12 rushes, 51 yards, 0 TD's. 0-4 record.

Alex Smith (2nd-year): 71-136 (52.2%), 872 yards, 5 TD's, 8 INT's. 60.06 PER. 9 rushes, 37 yards, 1 TD. 1-4 record.

Jason Campbell (2nd-year): 70-142 (49.3%), 881 yards, 6 TD's, 5 INT's. 68.43 PER. 15 rushes, 71 yards, 0 TD's. 2-3 record.

D. Anderson (2nd-year, 4 games): 66-117 (56.4%), 793 yards, 5 TD's, 8 INT's. 63.09 PER. 4 rushes, 47 yards, 0 TD's. 1-3 record.

A. Walter (2nd-year, 5 games but he sat 3 in the middle): 77-128 (60.2%), 752 yards, 0 TDís, 4 INTís. 63.67 PER. 3 rushes, -1 yards, 0 TDís. 0-5 record.

Rivers (3rd-year, 1st-year starter) : 64-136 (47.1%), 850 yards, 5 TD's, 3 INT's. 70.40 PER. 18 rushes, 3 yards, 0 TD's. 5-0 record.

Roethlisberger (3rd-year): 69-135 (51.1%), 918 yards, 5 TD's, 5 INT's. 69.92 PER. 14 rushes, 50 yards, 2 TD's. 3-2 record.

Losnan (3rd-year): 84-132 (63.6%), 976 yards, 8 TD's, 5 INT's. 90.34 PER. 12 rushes, 36 yards, 0 TD's. 3-2 record.

Eli Manning (3rd-year): 96-162 (59.3%), 941 yards, 7 TD's, 5 INT's. 77.21 PER. 9 rushes, 22 yards. 0 TD's. 1-4 record.

Palmer (4th-year): 101-160 (63.1%), 1191 yards, 8 TD's, 6 INT's. 86.74 PER. 8 rushes, 14 yards, 0 TD's. 2-3 record.

Romo (4th-year, doesn't include 12/25 Eagles game yet, so it's 4 games): 70-125 (56.0%), 1090 yards, 8 TD's, 5 INT's. 89.75 PER. 11 rushes, 6 yards, 0 TD's. 3-1 record.

Grossman (4th-year): 83-156 (53.2%), 1046 yards, 5 TD's, 6 INT's. 69.02 PER. 9 rushes, 12 yards, 0 TD's. 4-1 record.

Carr (5th-year): 95-142 (66.9%), 785 yards, 2 TD's, 5 INT's. 70.89 PER. 11 rushes, 35 yards, 0 TD's. 2-3 record.

Harrington (5th-year--not including 12/25 Dolphins game so it's 4 games): 69-118 (58.5%), 690 yards, 5 TD's, 5 INT's. 71.65 PER. 7 rushes, 12 yards. 2-2 record."

Vick (6th-year): 56-107 (52.3%), 707 yards, 6 TD's, 4 INT's. 76.34 PER. 37 rushes, 318 yards, 0 TD's. 2-3 record.

I didn't bother listing anyone with 5+ years except Vick. Including the veterans, Vince's past five games compare favorably with any QB in the NFL.

Peyton Manning (101.82 PER), Tom Brady (89.85 PER), & Steve McNair (95.95 PER) were the only ones I'd put ahead of him, statistically. In the key stat, however, Peyton is 2-3, Brady's 4-1, and McNair's 4-1 over the past five games. Only Rivers can match his 5-0 mark."

And this doesn't take into account VY's unique WILL to win. He is a living, breathing football jedi. I will tell you right now that I believe, when he is done, he will have been the best there has ever been.

Think I said running QB not scrambling QB. There is a difference. Young had plays designed for him to run. Elway ran as the very last resort as did Roger.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 04:13 PM
Think I said running QB not scrambling QB. There is a difference. Young had plays designed for him to run. Elway ran as the very last resort as did Roger.

Roger had plays designed for him to run as well but mostly early in his career. Elway only ran as the last resort save a QB draw or sneak once in a while. I will say that Young has had more running plays designed for him than probably any other Super Bowl era QB.

Interesting fact. Vince Young's current 6 game winning streak is the 3rd longest since the AFL/NFL merger over 40 years ago. Thanks to ESPN for that fact.

VY for OROY

real
12-26-2006, 04:17 PM
I really don't understand the "no one else has done it before" argument.....

That's the same argument as:

"Columbus....Don't try it....the earth is flat.....you'll fall off"

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 04:22 PM
I really don't understand the "no one else has done it before" argument.....

That's the same argument as:

"Columbus....Don't try it....the earth is flat.....you'll fall off"

haha. ironically, VY's QB play is actually old school football. It just didn't survive all the rules changes that have favored passing and the offense in general.

I would like to petition a name change to this thread and just make it The Vince Young forum. He should have his own forum as a child forum to the NFL Discussion forum. That way all VY posts would just be automatically moved to its own forum.

Kaiser Toro
12-26-2006, 04:24 PM
haha. ironically, VY's QB play is actually old school football. It just didn't survive all the rules changes that have favored passing and the offense in general.

I would like to petition a name change to this thread and just make it The Vince Young forum. He should have his own forum as a child forum to the NFL Discussion forum. That way all VY posts would just be automatically moved to its own forum.

The thread has already matured. At first it was titled Vince Young sucks. I think it can be said that VY is not bad either.

Second Honeymoon
12-26-2006, 04:32 PM
The thread has already matured. At first it was titled Vince Young sucks. I think it can be said that VY is not bad either.

Vince Young Is Who We Thought He Was should be the name of the thread. FWIW, any chick who is down with The Ramones is a keeper in my book. Congrats on the anniversary.

Titan "Tack" Fan
12-26-2006, 06:39 PM
I wonder....does any QB have a worse WR corps than VY?


No, and for the 2nd half of this year you can add TEs to that list too.

Our top 3 starting TEs are currently injured for the season. We are using PRACTICE SQUAD TIGHT ENDS. The guy who started on Sunday against the Bills had 3 crucial drops........and Vince still gets it done.

ATX
12-26-2006, 08:52 PM
I hear ya but I am just pointing to the W/L column. The Titans were circling the drain at 0-3 and Vince comes in and has them in the playoff hunt as a rookie. I don't buy the argument that the Titans have more talent than Texans. They have more talent at QB and obviously in their secondary. Other than that, they are pretty equitable.

Oh, as for him being God after one season. I equate him more a a Paul Bunyan type. Half legend half truth but all about winning football games. The league is predicated on adjustments so maybe the league catches up, but its tough to replicate VY in practice.


They also had Kerry Collins starting for them. Anybody is better than Collins.

Titan "Tack" Fan
12-26-2006, 10:38 PM
They also had Kerry Collins starting for them. Anybody is better than Collins.

You can say that again...He's the reason we aren't in the playoffs.

Drager
12-26-2006, 10:53 PM
Well......



Atleast you got one thing right....



I got both things right. If you read the whole thing, I state it's just my opinion.

ATX
12-26-2006, 11:55 PM
You can say that again...He's the reason we aren't in the playoffs.

Perhaps.... But who is the ***** who decided to bring Collins in. Y'all would have been better off starting Voleck instead of trading him.

disaacks3
12-26-2006, 11:58 PM
The Titans have a 90% 3rd & 4th down conversion %, that's PHENOMENAL!...it's also not true.

VY is doing better than expected....for a rookie. Teams win games, VY was 'pedestrian' until the final series in the Texans game, and wasn't much of a help in their next win (Defense won that one, and VY doesn't play "D"). He's got great potential, but he's still raw. Hey, if I was a Titan fan, I'd be ecstatic too, but I'd still hold off on that bust in Canton for awhile.
Wow, some coward gave me negative rep. for THAT? Gee, I wonder who...:secret:


I would hope you would realize that I was not quoting it as an official statistic. It's called exagerration or telling a fisherman's tale. But if you are hung up on statistics that actually show whether a QB is effective or not, well then here is one statistic for you. He has RAN for more 1st downs on 3rd or 4th down than ANY player in the league besides LaDanian Tomlinson and I believe Frank Gore. Also please bear in mind that he didn't start the first 3 games of the season. That is both PHENOMENAL and true. Don't hate on VY. He took an 0-3 team, lost his first two starts and then led his team into the playoff race. That is undeniably strong evidence that shows how valuable he is and how effective he is on field and as locker room leader. Yep, guess the Colts should ask to trade Peyton straight-up then? Listen to yourselves...HE took. HE led. Wow, I guess that QB they cut in the offseason...(Steve somebody or other) just couldn't be as successful as VY...oh wait...

I'm no VY hater, nor part of the VY admiration society. It's just amazing to me that when he does anything sub-standard, he's "just a rookie", but when he has a phenomenal play (as he did against the Texans / Bills) he's an "All-Pro" already.

Vince is still raw, it remains to be seen whether he'll get all those rough edges smoothed off. As I said before, I'd be ecstatic if I were a Titans fan, just to think of the potential he represents. Evidently, that's just not enough for some.

thunderkyss
12-27-2006, 08:13 AM
They also had Kerry Collins starting for them. Anybody is better than Collins.

If you had anyone other than Kerry Collins starting for Tennessee, Vince may not be starting now.

With Volek or McNair, the Titans may very well have been keeping their head above water with a 3-2 or a 4-1 record. They'd be second guessed all day, and all season.

But with Kerry Collins..... 0-5, Vince could flat out suck, and no one would expect to see Collins back in the game.

It was genius getting Collins in Tennessee..... kind of cold and Heartless the way the dumped McNair & Volek.. but Fisher ain't playing around. He's too old for QB controversies..

BetOnVYinCantonEasy
12-27-2006, 07:53 PM
Think I said running QB not scrambling QB. There is a difference. Young had plays designed for him to run. Elway ran as the very last resort as did Roger.

Yes, there is a difference. I switched it to scrambling because that is what Young is. You are, IMO, going to find that out over his career. This idea that he is a running QB suggests you haven't watched him play consistently or that you think that if any QB is talented enough to have his running abilites used purposely in an offense, then he a "running QB". He looks to throw, and when the pass isn't there, when he doesn't see the open receiver, when the play is designed for him to run, or when he sees an open receiver and has a lane to run and makes a split second decision that the run is the better option available, he runs. (And BTW, how many times is a receiver open for any QB in the NFL but he cannot see it or make the throw because of the pressure he is under from defenders? Wouldn't you think it is an asset that any QB could occasionally, in that situation, turn that into a TD and often turn it into a first down? I would. That makes even a subpar or inexperienced O-line serviceable. Same goes for making the decision to run even if the pass is there. Depending on the situation, if a QB can see that a pass play has a decent chance for success, say for a first down, but he is certain he can get it by running it, why wouldn't you want him to? Unless you can demonstrate that the QB typically assesses that situation wrong or is taking too many unnecessary hits from doing so, you would want him too--just opens up the offense that much more. So far, VY has been exceptional in these types of assessments and avoiding punishment for them, so it would be silly to deny that additional offensive threat to your team. The philosophy against a QB running, if he can run well, is overrated anyway. Most injuries QBs suffer come from blindside hits or vicious sacks behind the line of scrimmage when they are trying to release the ball. So long as a QB knows when to slide, he usually knows where the hit is coming from and isn't extended in a manner whereby he is likely to be injured as when throwing. VY knows when to slide.) The reason I think it is a mistake to label him a running QB is that it suggests that he does that to make up for some weakness in his passing skills, which I do not believe to be the case. In fact I think his amazing running ability simply adds one more weapon into his arsenal, which, in its addition, makes him all around better in every other aspect of his QB-ing abilities and makes the offense better overall at every position. It opens lanes for RBs, routes for WRs and TEs, leaves less ground to cover for the O-line, etc. And while I will agree with anyone saying the O-line of the Titans is better than the Texans, that says about as much as saying that most O-lines in the NFL were not as good as the Cowboys in the nineties. Yes, its better because you probably have the worst O-line in the NFL, but its not that good--its better than it would be, for certain, because Young is QB. His TEs are injured, or have been, and surely nobody is going to say he is playing with a top-flight WR corps.

I suppose I can understand why some people make the mistake of thinking of him as a running QB because I believe he will redefine the position at QB. In the future, teams will be looking for QBs with his skill set because of his play, and the results, in the NFL. There was a time when people thought of the West Coast Offense was a gimmick. There was a time when people thought passing in football was overrated or an outright anathema. In that vein, many of the QBs in the past that could run only did so when a pass play broke down because coaches did not design plays to accomodate the QB's running ability...they just hoped it would save the occasional broken play. Maybe had they designed plays for Elway to run he would have a winning record in SBs. Maybe not, who knows?

As far as the situation with Young at UT regarding the switch from a pro style offense to the zone read, here is something to consider. They switched to the zone read before they stopped trying to force Young into throwing the ball with traditional mechanics. His ability as a passer blossoming in his last two years came after Young convinced the coaching staff to quit trying to force him into a style that wasn't innately his own. It is my belief that this is the key to his progression as a passer in college, not the change in offense--that and the recognition that his running ability for yardage should not be downplayed because its not a traditional talent for QBs to use by design. If some athelete could run the 100m dash in record to near record time with a strange looking style but could not using tradional mechanics, would you force him to look like you think he should at the cost of awesome results? It looks as if Fisher and Chow understand this and that makes me smile ear to ear. The ability to change preconceived notions to match the situation for maximum results is innovation. However, the fact that Young, even to his detriment, tried to play as his coaches asked him to do until they recognized their mistake at Texas regarding his mechanics provides insight into one of the great qualities about Young--he is immanently coachable, ego is not a problem.

Now, finally, to address the valid argument that VY has not looked great with long passes so far in his rookie season put forward by Kastofsna. Yes, there have been some dropped long passes, and yes, a stud #1 receiver and simply more time in the system to turn an intellectual grasp of the system played in into successful results through repetition and trust between VY and the receivers will lead to better results, but, there is no argument that, of all the skills that Young has displayed so far, this is his weakest area. To that I will say that I do believe time in the system with a consistent WR set will lead to vastly improved results, regardless of the talent of the WRs but, with a top notch WR corps those results will improve precipitately. Sweed at UT has progressed from a WR that looked to be only a college player to a legit NFL prospect, and Pittman was, at times, an adequate long threat, but VY didn't have the WRs at UT to make long ball a consistent option when he was a starter. Yet, many times when he did go long, he hit his open receivers in stride, and many times he put the throw right on the money in tight coverage when going long. I think it will come to him over the next two years in the NFL, provided they do not try to change his throwing motion, and I no longer think they will make that mistake. That said, would that really matter if he turns out to be spot on from 25 yards and in and can consistently move the ball up and down the field and score TDs? If you think about it, if a QB can do that and it is on a team that likes to run and control clock, it makes the offense that much more deadly. Defenses couldn't simply abandon coverage considering the long ball threat because even now he wouldn't have a problem hitting a glaringly wide open receiver long. He's already done that numerous times (whether they were caught or not) with the far less than stellar WR corps he has now.

All that being said, as a side note, it seems like Kastofsna takes a lot of flack on numerous boards for giving his opinions, but, if the results prove him wrong, he has no problem admitting it promptly--his opinion of VY is far better than it once was-- and I am going to enjoy watching his full conversion to VY praiser over the next two years. :yahoo:

Some more meaningful (and enjoyable) stats about VY as per CarKev14 over at Hornfans.com:

"Over the past 5 games:

1) Vince is undefeated (5-0, matched only by Philip Rivers).

2) Vince is #8 in the NFL in passing completion % (63.71). No QB with fewer than 4 completed seasons is ahead of him.

3) Vince is #5 in the NFL in TD/INT ratio (2.0). No QB with fewer than 5 completed seasons is ahead of him.

4) Vince is #6 in the NFL in % passes intercepted (2.42%). No QB with fewer than 2 completed seasons is ahead of him.

5) Vince is #5 in the NFL in PER (91.50). No QB with fewer than 5 completed seasons is ahead of him.

6) Vince is #3 in the NFL in total TD's by a QB (9). No QB with fewer than 5 completed seasons is ahead of him."

and

"Looking at the whole season, here are 4th-quarter/OT victories by starting QB's (behind or tied in the 4th but won):

5: Vince
4: Rivers
3: 12 QB's
2: 6 QB's
1: 14 QB's
0: 4 QB's

Here are 4th-quarter comebacks (behind and won):
4: Vince, Rivers
3: P. Manning, McNair
2: 12 QB's
1: 13 QB's
0: 9 QB's "

Remember, he is only a rookie, without an experienced and/or exceptionally talented cast around him, but there aren't too many stats as of late by which you could tell that. And if he continues to excel, the comparisons won't be nearly so much contemporary as historical. Sure, for some, that is the big "if", but watching him play for years already, I have no doubts and absolutely no expectation that some day I will have to think, "Wow, that didn't turn out like I expected it to." Barring injury, the question isn't will he win SBs, MVPs, and break career records, its only how many and will he be the greatest QB ever. But already I think it is misguided to question how successful he will be as a "running" QB. However, for those who simply cannot see it any other way, I do think one day you will be seriously considering if a "running" QB was the greatest QB of all time.

kastofsna
12-27-2006, 08:12 PM
he'll have to stop being a run-first QB before he can be considered great.

Tourist
12-27-2006, 10:45 PM
he'll have to stop being a run-first QB before he can be considered great.

Have you actually watched Vince Young play? He keeps his eyes downfield, doesn't get happy feet, and isn't looking to run at the first sign of trouble. The guy's poise and pocket presence are as good as any QB in the league, bar none. The difference is, if Vince sees something open up, he has the athletic ability to exploit it, and isn't afraid to do it.

Statistics show that VY really isn't running any more than Steve Young did, even well into his career.

As a rookie, Vince Young has thrown 321 passes, with 81 rushes....roughly a 4:1 ratio.

In 1991, Steve Young's sixth year in the NFL, he threw 279 passes and ran 66 times....again, roughly a 4:1 ratio

(By comparison, Vick's pass/run ratio is typically in the neighborhood of 3:1).

I'm not one of those who buys into the whole racism thing, but I honestly believe that if VY was a white guy, then everyone would be comparing him to Steve Young....but he's not, so everyone compares him to Vick.

As far as being great:

Through 2004, 2005, and the first 5 games of 2006, the Titans had won a total of nine games, for a winning percentage of .243.

With a rookie Vince Young at QB, the team has a winning percentage of .667.

Considering the state of things in Tennessee for the past couple years, I'd say that's pretty great.

kastofsna
12-27-2006, 10:46 PM
i've explained my definition of "run first" already.

BetOnVYinCantonEasy
12-27-2006, 11:34 PM
I don't know your definition of "run first", but I don't really think I need to know. Accomplished NFL QBs are remembered by the appellations "great because..." and "great but..." Marino was great but he never won the SB. Manning is on his way to that. Farve is (maybe soon to be was) great because he made some of the most amazing passes under duress a QB ever has and imposed his will upon his team. If he hadn't won a Superbowl he'd have likely been known as great but he had too much of a proclivity to attempt too much and thus threw too many interceptions. Unitas might have been remembered the same way if he didn't win the big game. Elway would have been remembered as a great QB but a choker in the big game (Manning is on his way to that) except that he, with an exceptional amount of help from the RB position, won two SBs on the way out, long after the physical apex of his career. Bottom line, VY will grow with his understanding of Chow's system, a better WR corps, and simply more NFL experience into a slightly more pass oriented QB over the next few years I would imagine. And, when he enters the last third of his career, he will probably be a much less likely to run, due to the wear and tear of an NFL career and the natural loss of a bit of speed that is concomitant with age, but that will be made up for with experience. Really, I take him for his word when he says he'll do whatever it takes to win. If that turns out to be a radical change in his approach to the game, he'll do it. If that turns out to be 12 to 14 rushing touchdowns a year of varying distances between 1yd and 50yds along with converting 25% to 30% of the Titans successful 3rd and 4th down attempts with a rush, he'll do it. He is going to do whatever it takes to win SBs, but I am not at all convinced he will need to change his style one bit. I am convinced he will add to his overall arsenal, much as he did at UT over a three year span, but I really don't see him abandoning the run game in his repertoire any more than would naturally result from a more trustworthy and synchronized interaction with an improved WR corps. I would imagine that in that scenario, he runs fewer times but for an even higher average per run. He is going to make the "dual threat by design" QB category in the NFL legitimate. I think that many people assume VY runs because he cannot see the field quickly enough when its precisely the opposite. Just wait. A little more time to internalize Chow's offensive scheme so that its second nature and you'll be seeing the real fireworks in the air and on the ground. This is nothing yet. And a little more time means "next year". Chow has already said that VY has run plays in-game that they haven't even practiced yet from the playbook, successfully. And he is already suggesting sage adjustments in-game from the original game plan for the day based upon the defensive sets and strategy with the coaches assenting to the advice. I am going to love the NFL for the next ten to fifteen years.

mexican_texan
12-27-2006, 11:37 PM
VY is a run first QB. Deal with it. All of his "great" highlights are of him running.

TNTitan
12-28-2006, 07:45 AM
I don't know your definition of "run first", but I don't really think I need to know. Accomplished NFL QBs are remembered by the appellations "great because..." and "great but..." Marino was great but he never won the SB. Manning is on his way to that. Farve is (maybe soon to be was) great because he made some of the most amazing passes under duress a QB ever has and imposed his will upon his team. If he hadn't won a Superbowl he'd have likely been known as great but he had too much of a proclivity to attempt too much and thus threw too many interceptions. Unitas might have been remembered the same way if he didn't win the big game. Elway would have been remembered as a great QB but a choker in the big game (Manning is on his way to that) except that he, with an exceptional amount of help from the RB position, won two SBs on the way out, long after the physical apex of his career. Bottom line, VY will grow with his understanding of Chow's system, a better WR corps, and simply more NFL experience into a slightly more pass oriented QB over the next few years I would imagine. And, when he enters the last third of his career, he will probably be a much less likely to run, due to the wear and tear of an NFL career and the natural loss of a bit of speed that is concomitant with age, but that will be made up for with experience. Really, I take him for his word when he says he'll do whatever it takes to win. If that turns out to be a radical change in his approach to the game, he'll do it. If that turns out to be 12 to 14 rushing touchdowns a year of varying distances between 1yd and 50yds along with converting 25% to 30% of the Titans successful 3rd and 4th down attempts with a rush, he'll do it. He is going to do whatever it takes to win SBs, but I am not at all convinced he will need to change his style one bit. I am convinced he will add to his overall arsenal, much as he did at UT over a three year span, but I really don't see him abandoning the run game in his repertoire any more than would naturally result from a more trustworthy and synchronized interaction with an improved WR corps. I would imagine that in that scenario, he runs fewer times but for an even higher average per run. He is going to make the "dual threat by design" QB category in the NFL legitimate. I think that many people assume VY runs because he cannot see the field quickly enough when its precisely the opposite. Just wait. A little more time to internalize Chow's offensive scheme so that its second nature and you'll be seeing the real fireworks in the air and on the ground. This is nothing yet. And a little more time means "next year". Chow has already said that VY has run plays in-game that they haven't even practiced yet from the playbook, successfully. And he is already suggesting sage adjustments in-game from the original game plan for the day based upon the defensive sets and strategy with the coaches assenting to the advice. I am going to love the NFL for the next ten to fifteen years.

paragraphs were invented for a reason good gosh

thunderkyss
12-28-2006, 08:52 AM
VY is a run first QB. Deal with it. All of his "great" highlights are of him running.

When I watched Vince at UT, he never seemed to be a run first QB.

In the first half, he'd play QB. Throwing to open recievers, handing the ball to the RB.....

If they were down in the 4th... he'd turn it on, and do all those amazing things we talk about.

Personally, I don't care if he is a running QB. If he could've helped to bring a 5 game winstreak to Houston in his rookie season... & a win against the Division leader... shoot... I'd be exstatic.

kastofsna
12-28-2006, 08:59 AM
i'll reiterate my defintion of "run first" QB, and i believe most people follow a similiar train of thought:

if the QB's ability to run is shutdown by the defense, he'll have trouble being strictly a pocket passer. they need to have that element to succeed. look at vick. he has plenty of good passing games, but those are when he also has the option of running. against teams like the bucs and eagles who shutdown the run option, he's a disaster in the pocket. look at young against the jaguars. they didn't allow young to have an opprotunity to run, and he couldn't just stand in the pocket and pass.

the difference between the two is that young is a much better passer than vick when the run option is open.

BetOnVYinCantonEasy
12-28-2006, 11:46 AM
VY is a run first QB. Deal with it. All of his "great" highlights are of him running.

This looks to be a statement of somebody who has deveoped his opinion of a player by the highlights he has seen on youtube and not from watching his entire career at the university for which he played. If I am wrong, I apologize for the suggestion and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Check his stats from the last year and a half especially at UT and then look up some video of his passing...there are places you can find it if you know where to look. I suggest jcdenton40.com. Also, if you look at previous posts I have made, you'll see that the stats confirm in the last five games that Young defers to hardly no one in terms of PER, TD/INT ratio, pass completion %, and pass interception %....without his starting or backup tight ends and with an average WR corps at best, and that is being generous(Jones is tied for 12th, Bennett for 20th, and Troupe (TE) for 20th in dropped passes in the AFC.) Sounds like a guy that can throw the ball to me. Just about anybody would be happy with a QB that ranks so high in those categories, especially during the playoff drive, and especially if the QB is contributing to wins and not just avoiding losses. I think only Hoge is left defending the proposition that the Titans are hiding Young. Remembering that this is VY's rookie year, and an abbreviated one at that, with the toughest schedule in the NFL this year, makes this information down right freakish.

i'll reiterate my defintion of "run first" QB, and i believe most people follow a similiar train of thought:

if the QB's ability to run is shutdown by the defense, he'll have trouble being strictly a pocket passer. they need to have that element to succeed. look at vick. he has plenty of good passing games, but those are when he also has the option of running. against teams like the bucs and eagles who shutdown the run option, he's a disaster in the pocket. look at young against the jaguars. they didn't allow young to have an opprotunity to run, and he couldn't just stand in the pocket and pass.

the difference between the two is that young is a much better passer than vick when the run option is open.

That definition of "run first" QB is fine...I'd just call that a "scrambling" QB...six on one hand, half a dozen on the other. It seems to me that most scrambling QBs, if their O-line was overwhelmed outright or even at the edges have had that difficulty. I guess that is the difference between good and great. The great scramblers still managed to get at least some relative evasion. A pocket that would be considered completely collapsed for most QBs would still provide a slight amount of movement for QBs with great mobility, and many times they would use that extra half-second or so to make a play. By you definition though, I am simply not convinced that VY will have that problem. Two games against Jax in a rookie season just seems to me to be too small a data set. I'll wait to see after a couple more years (and hopefully one to two acquisitions at O-line, one of them for when Mawae retires) if Young has a consistent problem when the O-line is great, not just decent, and especially if they build an O-line to match his style of play, which I believe they will. If he does, I will reevaluate my position. Of course, one more WR if Jones works out, two if he doesn't, plays into this as well. I am of the camp, the lucid one I believe, that even the greats in sports cannot succeed ultimately without at least decent, balanced talent around them (MJ with the LA Clippers probably doesn't win a ring, even though he would likely still be considered the greatest basketball player ever, statistically.) How many more rings does Elway have with the Cowboys' O-line in the nineties? How many does McNair have? McNabb? And what QB historically would have a ring with the Texans' O-line?

I suppose we'll have to see who's theory on VY at UT works out as a predictor, if either. You see a QB that couldn't handle a pro-style offense, I saw a QB that could handle one if his throwing motion wasn't manipulated in specific and if his style wasn't manipulated in general in deference to the prototypical standard. Gregg Davis, by the way agrees. His two biggest mistakes in college football, he says, was to keep VY out of the starting roll early on and trying to change his style to resemble the style of most QBs.

Precisely because I don't believe Vick ever should have been a starting QB, I think the comparisons between him and VY are premature at best. Again, look at what both did in college (VY destroys him), and look at their obvious differences in the NFL even in VY's first year. I won't say that the stats confirm it--there simply aren't enough yet--but I will say they definitely suggest it. It is just my opinion, but, in two more complete NFL seasons, I don't think many people will admit to having made the VY/Vick comparison.


paragraphs were invented for a reason good gosh

Thank you for your response, Napoleon Dynamite. You have aided me in my quest to garner the world record of replies to my posts that critique style only and not one whit of their substance. Actually, you are a true boon because it counts twice if the individual crosses the grammar irony threshold. It is people like you who help to make my dream a possibly viable reality, truly it is. As William Faulkner's unfortunate semi-literate love child, it is the best for which I can humbly hope.:ok:

kastofsna
12-28-2006, 12:03 PM
well, it wasn't just the jacksonville games, there was also the eagles and cowboys games. didn't happen much at texas, but A&M did a damn fine job.

as for vick in college, i disagree. his freshman season, he was unstoppable, and was without a doubt the main reason they went to the national championship. he and antwan randle-el are the two most impactful QB's in college in a long time IMO.

doughboy
12-28-2006, 12:03 PM
VY is a run first QB. Deal with it. All of his "great" highlights are of him running.

Ok so just because his highlights are of him running make him a run first QB watch his highlights. I have never seen vince run before he checks all his progressions.
Notice vince looks down feild gets pressured then runs at the last second
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f20Y3f542m4
Im assuming this is the play you are talking about

Mike Vick is the only run first QB in the NFL

Dr. Toro
12-28-2006, 12:16 PM
As we sit here today, VY is a top 10 QB. He's produced 18 TDs to 13 turnovers, and is 8-4.

QBs ranked by TD/TO ratio:
P. Manning 32/10 (3.2)
McNabb 21/8 (2.63)
Bulger 23/11 (2.09)
Rivers 20/10 (2)
Brees 26/14 (1.85)
Brady 23/16 (1.44)
McNair 17/12 (1.42)
Young 18/13 (1.38)
Vick 21/16 (1.31)
Romo 17/13 (1.31)
Palmer 26/20 (1.3)

That's just one stat, but it shows you VY's playmaking and poise. I'm not saying he's a top 10 QB on that stat, but on the numbers, playmaking, winning, and progress. He's got holes in his game, but he's having some very tangible success as a rookie.

Of the guys on that list, Brady, Vick, and McNair have similar talent levels at the skilled spots and are all bunched together there. Interestingly, that ratio is pretty close for all of them.

kastofsna
12-28-2006, 12:53 PM
i can't buy top 10 QB. nosir. he still makes some bad mistakes. i thought it was a pretty horrible idea on 3rd and long with about 1:10 left on the clock against the jags to audible out of a running play and attempt a pass. it gave the jags' offense a chance to score with a minute remaining. i have to question that decision by him.

mexican_texan
12-28-2006, 01:01 PM
I've watched VY since he was at UT, before he was ESPN's golden child.

Dr. Toro
12-28-2006, 01:13 PM
i can't buy top 10 QB. nosir. he still makes some bad mistakes. i thought it was a pretty horrible idea on 3rd and long with about 1:10 left on the clock against the jags to audible out of a running play and attempt a pass. it gave the jags' offense a chance to score with a minute remaining. i have to question that decision by him.

Yup. He's top 10. There aren't 10 better QB's.

Week 14- Late game TD drive. OT walk-off TD run. W
Week 15- Subpar game, horrible decision. W
Week 16- Buzzer beating 1st half TD. Late game FG drive. 9 pt comeback. W

Vince carried that team in week 16 like maybe 2 or 3 guys are capable of doing. That team had such awful field position all game, had so many horrible penalties, and had such poor defense (forced 1 punt all game), the only reason they are alive this week is VY and T-Henry.

To point out the 1 low point bracketed by 2 superb efforts isn't going to convince me he's not a top 10 QB.

kastofsna
12-28-2006, 02:10 PM
that was just one low point that came to mind. he still fumbles, he throws picks and his 3rd down passing is pretty poor.

and some of the guys who are better QB's now:

peyton manning
tom brady
marc bulger
carson palmer
drew brees
brett favre
ben roethlisberger
philip rivers
steve mcnair
donovan mcnabb
matt hasselbeck

Dr. Toro
12-28-2006, 02:48 PM
that was just one low point that came to mind. he still fumbles, he throws picks and his 3rd down passing is pretty poor.

and some of the guys who are better QB's now:

peyton manning
tom brady
marc bulger
carson palmer
drew brees
brett favre
ben roethlisberger
philip rivers
steve mcnair
donovan mcnabb
matt hasselbeck

Wasn't counting McNabb because he's out for a while with that ACL.

Hasselbeck just hasn't played better than VY this year... his passing is marginally better but VY brings that rushing element. We're comparing a guy in his 30's to a 23 yr. old.

McNair and VY are equally productive, but Steve's got more experience right now.

Favre is a game away from retirement, and regarding performance, see Hasselbeck.

I give Roethlisberger credit for a body of work at such a young age.

We can revisit this in a year, but based on his performance now, and his continual improvement since 2003, I think he'll be fighting for a spot among that top tier of QBs with Brady, Palmer, Brees, and Manning. Scratch Favre and Hasselbeck off your list and there's your top 10 QB.

Regarding Young's fumbles, he's lost 2 all season and 1 of those was a botched handoff (looked to be the RB's fault). All's well that ends well, right?

TheOgre
12-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Young reminds me most of Randall Cunningham back in the late '80's early '90's. He makes plays with his arm, if possible, but doesn't pass up an opportunity to make plays with his legs. Vick just doesn't seem to read a defense as well from the pock as Young and Cunningham.

kastofsna
12-28-2006, 03:40 PM
Wasn't counting McNabb because he's out for a while with that ACL.

Hasselbeck just hasn't played better than VY this year... his passing is marginally better but VY brings that rushing element. We're comparing a guy in his 30's to a 23 yr. old.

McNair and VY are equally productive, but Steve's got more experience right now.

Favre is a game away from retirement, and regarding performance, see Hasselbeck.

I give Roethlisberger credit for a body of work at such a young age.

We can revisit this in a year, but based on his performance now, and his continual improvement since 2003, I think he'll be fighting for a spot among that top tier of QBs with Brady, Palmer, Brees, and Manning. Scratch Favre and Hasselbeck off your list and there's your top 10 QB.

Regarding Young's fumbles, he's lost 2 all season and 1 of those was a botched handoff (looked to be the RB's fault). All's well that ends well, right?
i'm not looking at age vs. potential here, you said he's a top 10 QB right now, and i disagree. yes, he may have a brighter future than hasselbeck and bulger and the like, but i dont' see how he's better than them right now.

ATX
12-28-2006, 03:46 PM
I was at a sports bar last night and they had the Bills-Titans game on one of the TVs, so I watched the second half. VY did not win that game in any way shape or form. Travis Henry ran all over the Bills and it was Losman who threw that INT late in the game. Bills should have just kicked the field goal and won the game. The last drive was all Travis Henry.

Dr. Toro
12-28-2006, 04:11 PM
i'm not looking at age vs. potential here, you said he's a top 10 QB right now, and i disagree. yes, he may have a brighter future than hasselbeck and bulger and the like, but i dont' see how he's better than them right now.

VY's numbers are superior to Hasselbeck's this year. VY is a 23 yr. old rookie, Hasselbeck is 31. VY stands to improve next year, and Hasselbeck seems to have regressed from the magical Hutchinson-Alexander form of 2003-2005. So me saying VY is better than Hasselbeck is based on the fact that a) his 2006 numbers are better b)he's more likely to improve in 2007 than Hasselbeck is. You are entitled to disagree with me, Hasselbeck was a Pro-Bowl caliber guy from 2003-2005, he's got a lot going for him.

TNTitan
12-28-2006, 10:49 PM
I was at a sports bar last night and they had the Bills-Titans game on one of the TVs, so I watched the second half. VY did not win that game in any way shape or form. Travis Henry ran all over the Bills and it was Losman who threw that INT late in the game. Bills should have just kicked the field goal and won the game. The last drive was all Travis Henry.

for someone who has 2k posts sure stuck your foot in your mouth with that one? You sir obviously didnt watch the game

Huge
12-28-2006, 11:05 PM
that was just one low point that came to mind. he still fumbles, he throws picks and his 3rd down passing is pretty poor.

and some of the guys who are better QB's now:

peyton manning
tom brady
marc bulger
carson palmer
drew brees
brett favre
ben roethlisberger
philip rivers
steve mcnair
donovan mcnabb
matt hasselbeck
Would it be fair to say those QBs have a much better supporting cast than Young?

And you'd have a hard time convincing me that Ben Roethlisberger is a better QB than Young.

ESAD2-14
12-28-2006, 11:15 PM
I've watched VY since he was at UT, before he was ESPN's golden child.

You mean he wrestled that title from Reggie Bush? That can't be right....

Napa Auto Parts
12-29-2006, 12:26 AM
that was just one low point that came to mind. he still fumbles, he throws picks and his 3rd down passing is pretty poor.

and some of the guys who are better QB's now:

peyton manning
tom brady
marc bulger
carson palmer
drew brees
brett favre
ben roethlisberger
philip rivers
steve mcnair
donovan mcnabb
matt hasselbeck

and to think we are talking about a rookie and you only came up with 11 QB's thats not bad for a rookie:shades:

LikeABoss
12-29-2006, 12:45 AM
Vince Young is a bad man:shades:

mexican_texan
12-29-2006, 01:50 AM
You mean he wrestled that title from Reggie Bush? That can't be right....
The other way around. Bush borrowed the title for a while, but VY was the Heisman front runner in the beginning of the season. Then VY took it back for the month of January.

kastofsna
12-29-2006, 08:37 AM
Would it be fair to say those QBs have a much better supporting cast than Young?

And you'd have a hard time convincing me that Ben Roethlisberger is a better QB than Young.
i'm going by who has looked the best this year, not who's put up the best numbers or anything. so it's pretty moot when looking at the supporting cast.

i think roethlisberger is an elite player, but that's probably just my opinion.
and to think we are talking about a rookie and you only came up with 11 QB's thats not bad for a rookie:shades:
well, it more speaks to how average all the QB's are today.

Odogg
12-29-2006, 01:42 PM
Well considering Vince was "supposed" to be standing next to Fisher for 3 years while getting Kerry Collins gatorade during time outs, I guess you could say he is doing pretty good. I love how people (Kastofnova) throw out "stats" like that defines whether he is good or not. JUST WATCH THE FILM!! It DOES NOT LIE !!

BetOnVYinCantonEasy
12-30-2006, 03:45 PM
You're perching on the extreme edge of one old, lonely branch in a very tall tree to suggest that Vick had a greater impact in college football that VY, Kast. Like I said, I have faith that you will come around regarding the whole VY and the NFL issue.

Well folks, consider me a ghost. I hope you all had a blessed Christmas and do have a wonderful new year that only gets better with age.

VY brought me back to the NFL and I certainly wished the Texans would have grabbed him and kickstarted Luv Ya Blue Redux, but I have decided to get the Sunday Ticket so its basically a non-issue to me now. Just remember, when its all said and done, it won't matter what numbers are applied to the variables, VY=HOF. Go Titans.

The Dream
12-30-2006, 04:16 PM
that was just one low point that came to mind. he still fumbles, he throws picks and his 3rd down passing is pretty poor.

and some of the guys who are better QB's now:

peyton manning
tom brady
marc bulger
carson palmer
drew brees
brett favre
ben roethlisberger
philip rivers
steve mcnair
donovan mcnabb
matt hasselbeck

Give me VY > Hasselbeck, Mcnabb (at this point in his career...he gets injured too much), Favre (at this point in his career), Bulger, Roethlisberger, Rivers, and maybe palmer.

TexansSeminole
12-30-2006, 04:23 PM
Give me VY > Hasselbeck, Mcnabb (at this point in his career...he gets injured too much), Favre (at this point in his career), Bulger, Roethlisberger, Rivers, and maybe palmer.

Hell no...I'd take atleast 4 of those guys instead of VY. At this point anyway...because thats what you seem to be saying "at this point"

The Dream
12-30-2006, 05:10 PM
Hell no...I'd take atleast 4 of those guys instead of VY. At this point anyway...because thats what you seem to be saying "at this point

well it's just my opinion, but if I had to win "1" game, VY would be one of my top choices.

Titan "Tack" Fan
12-30-2006, 06:56 PM
I wouldn't trade Vince for any NFL QB. He is only going up from here...and he's 8-4 as a rookie.

I can't wait to see what he does next year

ATX
12-30-2006, 07:36 PM
for someone who has 2k posts sure stuck your foot in your mouth with that one? You sir obviously didnt watch the game

I didn't say I watched the whole game....I watched the second half and he did nothing special except hand the ball off to Travis Henry. Take away the Titans running game and VY doesn't look so good.

On a side note, I loved VY at Texas and thought of him as one of the greatest Longhorns ever, but I'm looking at this without my homer glasses on. I don't hate or dislike VY now that he's on the Titans, I just don't think he's superman like alot on this board think.

Tulip
12-30-2006, 10:31 PM
I didn't say I watched the whole game....I watched the second half and he did nothing special except hand the ball off to Travis Henry. Take away the Titans running game and VY doesn't look so good.

In the Titans' first 3 games (the pre-VY era), they averaged 65 rushing yards per game. In the 12 games VY has started, the Titans have averaged more than 150 rushing yards per game.

VY's presence has had a huge impact on his team's offense.

BTW, because you only saw the second half, you missed his big 36-yard TD run at the end of the first half.

devo-x
12-30-2006, 10:39 PM
I think this thread's title should change to "Vince Young is good"

VY also outperfomed Carr this season :hides:

TNTitan
12-31-2006, 12:10 AM
I didn't say I watched the whole game....I watched the second half and he did nothing special except hand the ball off to Travis Henry. Take away the Titans running game and VY doesn't look so good.

On a side note, I loved VY at Texas and thought of him as one of the greatest Longhorns ever, but I'm looking at this without my homer glasses on. I don't hate or dislike VY now that he's on the Titans, I just don't think he's superman like alot on this board think.

In the Titans' first 3 games (the pre-VY era), they averaged 65 rushing yards per game. In the 12 games VY has started, the Titans have averaged more than 150 rushing yards per game.

VY's presence has had a huge impact on his team's offense.

BTW, because you only saw the second half, you missed his big 36-yard TD run at the end of the first half.


what he said

Runner
12-31-2006, 12:35 AM
I think this thread's title should change to "Vince Young is good"


It may get there yet.

Blake
12-31-2006, 03:46 PM
VY just made the Patriots his ***** with that 3rd quarter run.

Ihategeeks
12-31-2006, 03:55 PM
VY is going to be league MVP one day.

rollinstone18
12-31-2006, 05:18 PM
VY just made the Patriots his ***** with that 3rd quarter run.

Those two fumbles and ints were just part of his gameplan. :ok:

Vinny Testaverde just made the Titans his *****, what a throw. :tease:

Titan "Tack" Fan
12-31-2006, 05:57 PM
Vinny Testaverde just made the Titans his *****, what a throw. :tease:

Like it matters.

kastofsna
12-31-2006, 06:28 PM
young just wins! that's all he does!

except when it matters most apparently.

axman40
12-31-2006, 06:34 PM
young just wins! that's all he does!

except when it matters most apparently.
Nice coming from someone that said he could not play QB in the NFL!
What was your bright idea move VY to WR?

:ok:

Keldar
12-31-2006, 06:34 PM
from ESPN....

Young, who autographed something for Testaverde before kickoff, looked like a rookie in his worst game since this streak started. He was intercepted twice, lost one of two fumbles and his best play outside of the TD run was tackling Asante Samuel after being intercepted.

As I said before, he will be fantastic one week, and Carr-like the next. I believe inconsistency could possibly stay with Mr. Young even beyond his rookie season.

We'll see.....

Runner
12-31-2006, 06:54 PM
Knocking his success reeks of sour grapes. The Titans were supposed to be worse than our Texans, yet they were battling for the play-offs while we were discussing statement games. I think we'd have been happy ending the season 6-1.

Congratulations Titans - I for one look forward to next year's Titans/Texans match-ups.

Titan "Tack" Fan
12-31-2006, 07:04 PM
from ESPN....

Young, who autographed something for Testaverde before kickoff, looked like a rookie in his worst game since this streak started. He was intercepted twice, lost one of two fumbles and his best play outside of the TD run was tackling Asante Samuel after being intercepted.

As I said before, he will be fantastic one week, and Carr-like the next. I believe inconsistency could possibly stay with Mr. Young even beyond his rookie season.

We'll see.....

You're wrong. It's just his rookie season and he's 8-5 with minimal talent around him. You're dead wrong.

Honch Delgado
12-31-2006, 07:26 PM
I saw most of the game but stopped with 5 minutes left when they failed to convert on 4th down. If all people are going by is the stat line then they really have no business talking. Much like Carr you have to actually watch the games to make an evaluation. On some plays Vince looked brilliant, the TD scramble, near sideways TD flick to Hartsock, evading tackles that would have been sure sacks had it been any other QB and on other plays he looked really bad, forcing passes into coverage, fumbles, some really awful throws, etc. But the bottom line is he is making the plays a playmaker makes in his rookie year and I think the tackle on Samuel speaks volumes regarding his determination. I look forward to watching Vince in the future, he's only going to get better.

rollinstone18
12-31-2006, 07:30 PM
Like it matters.

Actually it's a nice accomplishment for Vinny, 20 straight years with a td pass.

But you're right, Vince didn't keep his team in the game for it to truly matter.

Wolf
12-31-2006, 07:53 PM
http://forums.titansonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22759

they aren't happy about the TD pass

BattleRedToro
12-31-2006, 08:27 PM
Who changed this thread's title?

It started out as Vince Young Sucks and now it is Vince Young Is Not So Bad.

TD
01-01-2007, 08:13 AM
The Curse > Vince Young.

There's no way the Titans make the playoffs. All they needed was:

KC to beat Jacksonville - Check
Pittsburgh to beat Cincinnati - Check
SF to beat Denver - Check!?!?

Win their own game - D'OH!!

Only in Hous......I mean Nashville. THANKS BUD!!!!

axman40
01-01-2007, 11:40 AM
http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/07/86/02/image_5002867.jpg (http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sports/stories/other/01/01/TNMH115_Patriots_Titans_footb.html)
IMO this was the best thing for VY, The NFL is supposed to be hard!

:stirpot:

Runner
01-01-2007, 11:46 AM
I braved all the Cowboys fans at BW3s and watched the Texans and Titans on adjoining TVs.

Did VY make some bad throws? Yes he did. Did they quit throwing downfield because of them? No they didn't. For every bad play Young made he made a few good ones. He had another 30 some yard TD run; it seems like he does that once a game.

I think Young needs to work on his passing accuracy; I really can't judge how well he's reading defenses. I haven't watched closely enough.

Aside from those two items though, he shows the drive to win and his teammates seem to believe in him. He throws very well on many of his passes, and the Titans seem to be running a complete offense with him.

I think he did pretty well for a rookie and if he works hard during the off-season he could fix the few problems he's shown - primarily passing accuracy.

I was NOT a Young fan coming out of college - I thought he might have been one of those great college QBs that couldn't quite repeat his success in the NFL. I think I was wrong about this; time will tell.

If this thread stays alive all off-season, maybe it will evolve to "Vince Young Is Pretty Good".

Titan "Tack" Fan
01-01-2007, 01:17 PM
I braved all the Cowboys fans at BW3s and watched the Texans and Titans on adjoining TVs.

Did VY make some bad throws? Yes he did. Did they quit throwing downfield because of them? No they didn't. For every bad play Young made he made a few good ones. He had another 30 some yard TD run; it seems like he does that once a game.

I think Young needs to work on his passing accuracy; how I really can't judge how well he's reading defenses. I haven't watched closely enough.

Aside from those two items though, he shows the drive to win and his teammates seem to believe in him. He throws very well on many of his passes, and the Titans seem to be running a complete offense with him.

I think he did pretty well for a rookie and if he works hard during the off-season he could fix the few problems he's shown - primarily passing accuracy.

I was NOT a Young fan coming out of college - I thought he might have been one of those great college QBs that couldn't quite repeat his success in the NFL. I think I was wrong about this; time will tell.

If this thread stays alive all off-season, maybe it will evolve to "Vince Young Is Pretty Good".

Great post. Positive rep for you. You speak the truth, you don't just assume cause you are reading the stats on Monday morning and your some fantasy football junky.

jerek
01-01-2007, 01:27 PM
I braved all the Cowboys fans at BW3s and watched the Texans and Titans on adjoining TVs.

Did VY make some bad throws? Yes he did. Did they quit throwing downfield because of them? No they didn't. For every bad play Young made he made a few good ones. He had another 30 some yard TD run; it seems like he does that once a game.

I think Young needs to work on his passing accuracy; how I really can't judge how well he's reading defenses. I haven't watched closely enough.

Aside from those two items though, he shows the drive to win and his teammates seem to believe in him. He throws very well on many of his passes, and the Titans seem to be running a complete offense with him.

I think he did pretty well for a rookie and if he works hard during the off-season he could fix the few problems he's shown - primarily passing accuracy.

I was NOT a Young fan coming out of college - I thought he might have been one of those great college QBs that couldn't quite repeat his success in the NFL. I think I was wrong about this; time will tell.

If this thread stays alive all off-season, maybe it will evolve to "Vince Young Is Pretty Good".

This pretty well summarizes my feelings on VY. He did better than I expected him to this rookie year and for that I'll give him credit. I'd like to think there is a happy, realistic medium between the "he blows" and "I pray to him every night." He has skills and mojo but there are still deficiencies he needs to address before he'll be considered "elite."

'll be interested to see if teams become better at gameplanning for Young as his career continues, and how much he continues to improve his own skill sets. I don't really want to make the comparison to Mike Vick because I think Young is a harder worker and better student of the game, but when Mike Vick first came into the league, he entered with a bang -- but because he never addressed his throwing deficiencies -- he became less effective with time, as teams minimized his run game. IMO the most dangerous aspect of Young's game right now is his feet: he is a comparatively competent passer, but not yet "dangerous" or elite. I think it is safe to say that he would rank around the bottom of the league among starting quarterbacks (hell, he does, statistically) if not for his feet -- and that's not to take away from the player he is, because you have to respect the complete package -- only that he will be a truly frightening opponent if he can improve his accuracy and reads.

I haven't watched enough Titans games to feel authoritative in saying this, but that is just my observation to this point.

Silver Oak
01-01-2007, 03:26 PM
http://img.coxnewsweb.com/B/07/86/02/image_5002867.jpg (http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sports/stories/other/01/01/TNMH115_Patriots_Titans_footb.html)
IMO this was the best thing for VY, The NFL is supposed to be hard!

:stirpot:

Was that the picture of him when he was supposedly crying? If so, it's a classic!

There's no crying in football! :marionaner:

thunderkyss
01-01-2007, 03:48 PM
from ESPN....

Young, who autographed something for Testaverde before kickoff, looked like a rookie in his worst game since this streak started. He was intercepted twice, lost one of two fumbles and his best play outside of the TD run was tackling Asante Samuel after being intercepted.

As I said before, he will be fantastic one week, and Carr-like the next. I believe inconsistency could possibly stay with Mr. Young even beyond his rookie season.

We'll see.....

Fantastic one week....... Carr-like the next..... what more needs to be said?? One week he plays well.... the next week he plays like Carr....

against the same defense... Vince on a bad day:

15 of 36 for 226 yards 0 TDs 2 INts....

on a good day, David will throw for 226 yards. But here is David, against the same defense.

16-28 for 127 yards 0 TDs 4 INTs.....

and David has 2 probowl WRs.. Vince has none. David had a 105 yard running game..... Vince had a 106 yard rushing game(not counting his own yards.)

One has been in the league for 5 years, the other for 5 months.

This was Vince's worse game of the season...... this was David's second worse game of the season.

Titan "Tack" Fan
01-01-2007, 04:57 PM
/\ Vince's worst game of the season? Did you see the first Jags game??

TD
01-01-2007, 05:02 PM
Fantastic one week....... Carr-like the next..... what more needs to be said?? One week he plays well.... the next week he plays like Carr....

against the same defense... Vince on a bad day:

15 of 36 for 226 yards 0 TDs 2 INts....

on a good day, David will throw for 226 yards. But here is David, against the same defense.

16-28 for 127 yards 0 TDs 4 INTs.....

David Carr against Jacksonville: 41 of 66 for 391 yards; 2 TD 0 INT 0 Fumbles
VY against the same defense: 22 of 51 for 248 yards; 1 TD 3 INT 2 Fumbles

...so much for cherry picked comparisons.


This was Vince's worse game of the season...... this was David's second worse game of the season.

Worst game of the season???.....Worse than his first start against Dallas? Worse than his 2nd game against Indy? Worse than the Nov 5th game against Jacksonville?

People seem to have reached a verdict on VY and we're not even 1/2 way through the evidence. I expect him to be a great QB, but reality is, he ain't there yet.

thunderkyss
01-01-2007, 05:32 PM
/\ Vince's worst game of the season? Did you see the first Jags game??

I didn't say it was his worse game........ the reporter originally quoted said it was...

thunderkyss
01-01-2007, 05:39 PM
David Carr against Jacksonville: 41 of 66 for 391 yards; 2 TD 0 INT 0 Fumbles
VY against the same defense: 22 of 51 for 248 yards; 1 TD 3 INT 2 Fumbles

...so much for cherry picked comparisons.




In Oct 22 of this year, David went 25 of 34 for 224 yards and 2 TDs
on Nov 12, he went 16 of 32 for 167 yards & 0 TDs, and 0 Ints...

Those defenses are more akin to the Jacksonville Defense Vince played against.

All I did was pull David's stats against the team the reporter is criticizing Vince against. If Vince had a bad game against the Pats, I wonder what he'd think about David's game against the Pats.

If you think Vince did poorly against the Jacksonville Jaguars, I wonder how you think David played against the Jacksonville Jaguars.

TD
01-01-2007, 06:13 PM
If you think Vince did poorly against the Jacksonville Jaguars, I wonder how you think David played against the Jacksonville Jaguars.

The first game; Good enough to win. The 2nd game; good enough not to lose, which is all VY seems to be judged against.

Don't get me wrong; I'd take Young over Carr anyday (I've said so since before the draft), but a dose of reality needs to be injected here.

TNTitan
01-20-2007, 08:15 AM
how did this get to page 6?? sheesh

HJam72
12-29-2009, 01:02 PM
The Curse > Vince Young.

There's no way the Titans make the playoffs. All they needed was:

KC to beat Jacksonville - Check
Pittsburgh to beat Cincinnati - Check
SF to beat Denver - Check!?!?

Win their own game - D'OH!!

Only in Hous......I mean Nashville. THANKS BUD!!!!

Hahahahaha!

Texan_Bill
12-29-2009, 01:23 PM
11.9 QB rating last week. :heh:

Honoring Earl 34
12-29-2009, 01:27 PM
11.9 QB rating last week. :heh:

I think VY wasted some time pouting when he could been one heck of a wildcat QB . Shoot they may not had to settle on so many FGs but it's great cause it's the Titans .

Double Barrel
12-29-2009, 01:29 PM
11.9 QB rating last week. :heh:

Seriously?! :shocked

I'm actually rooting for CJ to break the single season rushing record. It makes him worth more, so the Titans either pay up when it's time or lose him. And it really highlights one of the most important aspects of VY's amaaaaazzzzzing comeback.

Texan_Bill
12-29-2009, 01:36 PM
I think VY wasted some time pouting when he could been one heck of a wildcat QB . Shoot they may not had to settle on so many FGs but it's great cause it's the Titans .

Right!

Seriously?! :shocked

I'm actually rooting for CJ to break the single season rushing record. It makes him worth more, so the Titans either pay up when it's time or lose him. And it really highlights one of the most important aspects of VY's amaaaaazzzzzing comeback.

Seriously.... Vince Young (http://www.nfl.com/players/vinceyoung/profile?id=YOU617196)

Texan_Bill
12-29-2009, 02:11 PM
LMAO on all the name changes to this thread.