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View Full Version : What separates AJ from the other top receivers in the NFL


TheRealJoker
11-20-2006, 09:09 PM
I dont have one word to describe it but ill just say it like this...

Ocho Cinco wouldn't have let Nate Clements snatch the ball from him on that INT play the first drive of the game. He would've fought for that ball and it would've either been incomplete or a reception for a long gain. Definitely wouldn't have been an INT.

Until AJ starts doing the little things like that, no matter how many receptions he gets he is not ELITE like Ocho Cinco, Marvin Harrison, Steve Smith, Torry Holt, and the like.

newbiefan
11-20-2006, 10:08 PM
I believe the word you're looking for is "tenacity".

The quality that allows you to dominate along w/ physical gifts. NOT saying he doesn't have heart b/c he's clearly a competitor.

Grid
11-20-2006, 10:12 PM
Man... what terrible fans we are becoming.

Do me a favor and think back to all the passes like that that Johnson has come down with. Additionally, consider the overthrown pass later in the game where Johnson took the penalty rather than letting the CB intercept.

Finally, grow up and quit trying to tear down our best players so that you will feel better about yourself. We are a young team that is still losing games.. that isnt an excuse for small minded individuals to drag our best players down and belittle thier contributions and hard work.

TheRealJoker
11-20-2006, 10:13 PM
Man... what terrible fans we are becoming.

Do me a favor and think back to all the passes like that that Johnson has come down with. Additionally, consider the overthrown pass later in the game where Johnson took the penalty rather than letting the CB intercept.

Finally, grow up and quit trying to tear down our best players so that you will feel better about yourself. We are a young team that is still losing games.. that isnt an excuse for small minded individuals to drag our best players down and belittle thier contributions and hard work.

If I was trying to tear down AJ I would've brought down the numerous dropped passes he's had this season while everyone else is talking about Carr being the 33rd best qb in the league. But im not, im merely saying if he is to be considered an ELITE receiver he has to take that ball from Nate Clements.

Im sure even you can agree with that no? Or are we supposed to hold everyone accountable except our best player when we lose?

Grid
11-20-2006, 10:18 PM
No..i dont agree. I cant name a single receiver in the history of the game who hasnt had a bad play before.

Andre Johnson is the #1 receiver in the league right now, and he has earned it so far. Yes he has dropped some passes..but he has caught alot freakin more.. and has made play after play for us.

There is absolutely no excuse AT ALL for bashing Andre Johnson. His hands are the absolute LEAST of our problems. He is most likely the best player on our team, and is most definatly a top 10 WR in the NFL.

TheRealJoker
11-20-2006, 10:21 PM
There is no excuse at all to point out he should've come down with that jump ball Nate Clements came down with?

When Peyton Manning throws an INT is noone allowed to point that out because he is the Colts best player?

How does a really good player improve if noone points out their mistakes?

Should every bad Andre Johnson play be referred to "the incident we must never speak of" from now on?

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 10:30 PM
All those WR's you listed have pro bowl QB's throwing them the football with the exception of Chad Johnson, but I would have a hard time finding someone who thought Carr is better than Carson Palmer ... who has actually been to the playoffs.

TheRealJoker
11-20-2006, 10:36 PM
Jake Delhomme and Marc Bulger are not the super qbs you speak of, although they are very good.

But you're just another one in the crowd that chooses to blame Carr no matter what from the sounds of it :lightning:

Not saying even Carr is a top qb, not saying AJ isn't a top 10 receiver. But I am saying Carr isn't the bottom dweller most of you think he is and I am saying AJ is not yet the ELITE receiver most of you like to think he is (although I think he has the potential to be)

wwffan99tx
11-20-2006, 10:41 PM
Could you have come down with the ball in that exact situation?? Answer is no, so lay off AJ. Those who can't do it themselves definitely shouldn't criticize others.

bad
11-20-2006, 10:43 PM
There's nothing wrong with Andre's hands. The problem is he doesn't use them enough. He needs to learn to reach out and snag the pass with his hands rather than let it come into his body.

That's about the only knock I have on Andre and it's fixable. Just make him sit in a room and watch Marvin Harrison and Torry Holt. I can't remember the last time I saw Holt drop a catchable ball and it never hits his body until he tucks it in.

This team has a lot of problems to worry over. Our best player is a rookie linebacker. That says a ton.

Andre is the leading receiver in the NFL and for the most part looks good doing it. I'm happy he's a Texan.

gameguy89
11-20-2006, 10:46 PM
No..i dont agree. I cant name a single receiver in the history of the game who hasnt had a bad play before.

Andre Johnson is the #1 receiver in the league right now, and he has earned it so far. Yes he has dropped some passes..but he has caught alot freakin more.. and has made play after play for us.

There is absolutely no excuse AT ALL for bashing Andre Johnson. His hands are the absolute LEAST of our problems. He is most likely the best player on our team, and is most definatly a top 10 WR in the NFL.

I've seen several times today that AJ is the number 1 receiver in the league right now. Either you are living a month behind me, or you're looking at different stats, but he's not. He hasn't been for like 3 weeks.

Additionally, I don't understand all of the bashing on AJ for the interception. I'm not hating on Carr for the play, don't get me wrong. Watch the replay again. AJ had to CATCH UP to the ball and fought with Nate Clements after he had his arm wrapped around it. AJ and Clements didn't get their hands on it at even remotely the same time, AJ had to go around to the other side of Clements to get a shot at it, IIRC. It was a combination of a bad pass and a good play on the ball by Clements (hey, by the way, there is a such thing as the other team doing something well, rather than us screwing it up for ourselves: a notion I see very little of on this board, for obvious reasons, but still).

AlbinoRat
11-20-2006, 10:49 PM
I think another thing that they have going for them is that they have great compliments at Wide Receiver with them. T.O. has Terry Glenn and had Rice, Torry Holt had Issac Bruce, Chad has T.J., Smith had Muhammad and now has Keyshawn, and Harrison has Wayne and Stokely.

This is not to take ANYTHING away from these guys, but it helps when you aren't the defenses only focus on every play.

A.J. matches them in speed, matches or beats them in size and leaping ability, and I know he is willing to fight for the ball.

Sometimes it looks like he lacks desire though. All these guys go all out every play, or at least used to. They did whatever it took to get their hands on the ball and get into the endzone.

Holt still produces without a great team, Chad is on and off, Smith is always on fire, as is Harrison (though he doesn't need to be).

T.O. is the exception. BUT when he was with San Francisco, before the controversy, he caught 19 passes in one game. That is the Terrell Owens that I like to remember...the one that played for the love of the game, back when it wasn't "All about me". As a side note, this was also when he was Terrell not that "white guy spelling" *sorry i couldn't figure out a different way to spell it*

I think as AJ matures as a receiver, all this will come together. One thing we can be glad of is the lack of an attitude. But with this lack of attitude comes a lack of intensity, but that should change soon.

gameguy89
11-20-2006, 10:49 PM
Oh, wait... leading receiver... in receptions? Give me a break.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECYDS/2006/regular

Yeah... 14 more receptions than most other people, but yet, less yards. I'm sorry, but no. Not number 1 in my eyes. Yardage means a lot more to me than catches; YPC more than either, which again, he is actually lower than most other people on the list.

thunderkyss
11-20-2006, 10:53 PM
There is no excuse at all to point out he should've come down with that jump ball Nate Clements came down with?


First, that was not a jump ball. David was getting hit as he threw it, and I'm sure it didn't go anywhere near where he wanted it to go. Secondly, NateClements was in better position to get that ball than AJ was. Third, AJ is not a defensive back, and forth....... AJ should have came down with that ball.

if we're going to consider him Elite.

But...... every other pass that he or Eric, or Jameel, or anyone who caught a ball this season... has been thrown behind them. That's just where David likes to put them I guess.

there may have been a few that were in front, but for the most part, David likes to throw behind his recievers.

And considering the YAC Andre's been getting, I'd say he's Elite.

Grid
11-20-2006, 10:53 PM
I wouldnt berate a neurosurgeon because he isnt smart enough to understand astrophysics.

If you want to say that AJ is not yet an elite receiver, fine, but this is a bad example. Carr has been able to throw plenty of jump balls to andre this year, and he has come down with them most of the time, and if he didnt, they were incomplete, not intercepted. One example of Andre not getting the jump ball is not good enough to make an arguement for him lacking the "drive" to get jump balls... not by a long shot.

Johnson is still young and so is our offense.. so it is hard to say he is an elite receiver when we arent winning alot of games.. but he has not shown anything that makes me believe he isnt an elite receiver.. he needs to be a LITTLE more consistant.. but he is invaluable to this team, and hands down the best player on our offense. He is leading the league statistically.. and yah, statistics dont make a superstar, but if the plays directly below andre are any indication, he is either a superstar, or on the verge of superstardom.

ib4texans
11-20-2006, 10:58 PM
All those WR's you listed have pro bowl QB's throwing them the football with the exception of Chad Johnson, but I would have a hard time finding someone who thought Carr is better than Carson Palmer ... who has actually been to the playoffs.

So with that mentality Andre shouldn't even be as good as is. He probably could have posted big numbers last year with Alex Smith. I think AJ is an awesome receiver, Carr deserves some of the credit for his stats. When AJ went to the Pro Bowl it was Carr throwing to him,they have a chemistry like Peyton and Harrison. The Texans are my team and I get sick of the bashing,no matter which player it is. I get excited when the team does well,but I don't smack talk out of frustration. The only player I wish we hadn't aquired would be Ron Dayne,he's not a Texan he's just an ex Bronco that screwed up a good rookie tackle in Charles Spencer.

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 10:58 PM
AJ's best days are ahead of him and his ceiling is high.

Once the Texans' QB has the ability to execute a full NFL playbook and throw the ball without the notion that his life is in danger as long as he holds onto the ball we will be pleasantly surprised at what we did not unleash due to it all being about the development of Carr.

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 11:00 PM
The Panthers are 5-2 in the post season with Delhomme under center. He is not a "super QB" like Manning but he's been in one more Super Bowl than Manning (who has never been) and he played a fantastic game at that. Steve Smith didn't have a big year until Delhomme got there. If I am given a choice of Delhomme over Carr I pick Delhomme as long as he's not dead.

Grid
11-20-2006, 11:02 PM
Oh, wait... leading receiver... in receptions? Give me a break.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECYDS/2006/regular

Yeah... 14 more receptions than most other people, but yet, less yards. I'm sorry, but no. Not number 1 in my eyes. Yardage means a lot more to me than catches; YPC more than either, which again, he is actually lower than most other people on the list.


if you go to the stats page on NFL.com.. go down to the bottom, hit Wide Recievers, then hit complete NFL and process it.. AJ is on top.

No he isnt leading in every catagory.. he is only #1 in receptions I believe... top 10 in a few others.. top 15 or so in TDs.. he is low on the totem poll on yards per catch, but that has alot to do with the offense we are running.

No matter what the case, complaining about AJ is petty and *****ic.


BTW.. this "lacks desire" thing.. its in your head.. AJ has done absolutely nothing on the field that would lead to that assumption. Actually..I have seen him get angry, I have seen him grab balls over the middle knowing he was gonna get smeared, I have seen him talk smack and I have seen him break the rules to get an advantage on the guy covering him.. these are not he actions of a man who doesnt want to win. If you want to watch a soap opera, im sure you will find many shows on every sunday with all the drama and hidden character flaws that your little heart can handle.. but please keep your Soap Opera Digest away from my team.

Wolf
11-20-2006, 11:06 PM
The Panthers are 5-2 in the post season with Delhomme under center. He is not a "super QB" like Manning but he's been in one more Super Bowl than Manning (who has never been) and he played a fantastic game at that. Steve Smith didn't have a big year until Delhomme got there. If I am given a choice of Delhomme over Carr I pick Delhomme as long as he's not dead.

and I'd take the Panther's defense and run game at this time too

gameguy89
11-20-2006, 11:07 PM
if you go to the stats page on NFL.com.. go down to the bottom, hit Wide Recievers, then hit complete NFL and process it.. AJ is on top.

No he isnt leading in every catagory.. he is only #1 in receptions I believe... top 10 in a few others.. top 15 or so in TDs.. he is low on the totem poll on yards per catch, but that has alot to do with the offense we are running.

No matter what the case, complaining about AJ is petty and *****ic.


BTW.. this "lacks desire" thing.. its in your head.. AJ has done absolutely nothing on the field that would lead to that assumption. Actually..I have seen him get angry, I have seen him grab balls over the middle knowing he was gonna get smeared, I have seen him talk smack and I have seen him break the rules to get an advantage on the guy covering him.. these are not he actions of a man who doesnt want to win. If you want to watch a soap opera, im sure you will find many shows on every sunday with all the drama and hidden character flaws that your little heart can handle.. but please keep your Soap Opera Digest away from my team.

pss... click on the link...

If the rest of your post was directed at me, sorry if I came off that way. Personally, I think that AJ either is, or can be, one of the best players on our team. I've been very impressed with his past performances, with the exception of the drops. Most of Carr's downfield passes (which, granted, have been few and far between) have been jumpballs towards AJ - most of which, he has come down with.

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 11:09 PM
So with that mentality Andre shouldn't even be as good as is.

No I was pretty much saying that if you take AJ off this team then Carr's production falls off.

And before you go knocking Alex Smith don't forget that his team just did something the Texans have never done with Carr - win 3 in a row. They are at .500 and 1 game back of Seattle.

eriadoc
11-20-2006, 11:10 PM
Nate Clements gets paid too. I don't have a problem with the pass by Carr - he trusted AJ to make a play and usually he does. I don't have a problem with AJ losing that battle, because he does win his fair share.

AJ does seem to lead the world in receptions to the 1-yd line though. Just one of those odd, fluke things I've noticed.

But yeah, AJ is the best offensive player on this team. I've criticized him for his hands on occasion, but lately, he's been pulling them in at a good rate. He should be in the Pro Bowl this year (go vote!!).

Grid
11-20-2006, 11:10 PM
yah I clicked the link.. I was just telling you where to find the stats I was looking at. The ones I was looking at were just "top WRs".. now, I dont know how nfl.com tallys thier top WRs.. AJ may be at the top simply because he has the most receptions, or maybe they have some formula that puts all the stats together and gives a rating, im not sure.. but AJ is at the top in most every important stat.


And no, the rest of my post wasnt directed at you. Sorry, should have specified. And im glad to see that some of our fans memories do extend past the previous day. Rep for you.

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 11:12 PM
and I'd take the Panther's defense and run game at this time too

Well, Julius Peppers could have been a Texan.

Grid
11-20-2006, 11:13 PM
Well, Julius Peppers could have been a Texan.

:joker: AAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!

:gun:

thunderkyss
11-20-2006, 11:19 PM
Nate Clements gets paid too. I don't have a problem with the pass by Carr - he trusted AJ to make a play and usually he does. I don't have a problem with AJ losing that battle, because he does win his fair share.

AJ does seem to lead the world in receptions to the 1-yd line though. Just one of those odd, fluke things I've noticed.

But yeah, AJ is the best offensive player on this team. I've criticized him for his hands on occasion, but lately, he's been pulling them in at a good rate. He should be in the Pro Bowl this year (go vote!!).

Aj was also leading in Yards before last weeks games.....

That pass was not a jump ball David threw up trusting AJ..... it was an errant pass that had more air under it than David would have liked, but it was what it was as David got smashed by a guy Winston froze on.

Also, something that doesn't show up in those stats..... AJ's YAC comes after he's dodged one or two players.... because the ball rarely goes his way if Aj doesn't run the underneath routes.

ib4texans
11-20-2006, 11:20 PM
No I was pretty much saying that if you take AJ off this team then Carr's production falls off.

And before you go knocking Alex Smith don't forget that his team just did something the Texans have never done with Carr - win 3 in a row. They are at .500 and 1 game back of Seattle.

Smith did that? I thought those games came from Frank Gores legs, Smith had like 105 yds before the Seattle game. I don't think he even broke 100 against the Vikings. I'd if we won 3 in a row with those stats you would still be a Carr hater.

AlbinoRat
11-20-2006, 11:21 PM
BTW.. this "lacks desire" thing.. its in your head.. AJ has done absolutely nothing on the field that would lead to that assumption. Actually..I have seen him get angry, I have seen him grab balls over the middle knowing he was gonna get smeared, I have seen him talk smack and I have seen him break the rules to get an advantage on the guy covering him.. these are not he actions of a man who doesnt want to win. If you want to watch a soap opera, im sure you will find many shows on every sunday with all the drama and hidden character flaws that your little heart can handle.. but please keep your Soap Opera Digest away from my team.[/QUOTE]

Every player in the NFL has done that, or they wouldn't be there. There is holding on every single play. With wide outs vs corners there is bumping every play. The difference between AJ and these guys, they win every time. thats what im trying to say. Dont get me wrong. I love AJ and am happy with his production, I couldnt ask for more. The guy asked what seperates him from those guys, I simply added what i saw. Im not saying he sucks, id be a fool to. Do i think hes at the level of TO, 85, Moss, and others, not yet, but he can and will be, with time, but you can't tell me hes perfect, cause then you'd be the D.A. He has to fix some things before he becomes the best in the league. He doesn't get seperation nearly as well as those other guys. So i stick by what i said, he doesn't have that desire yet, that he is going to beat that corner every play, and every play is going all the way. He doesn't consistently blow by corners. Give it time and he will, but hes just not there yet.

gameguy89
11-20-2006, 11:24 PM
Thanks Grid. My point was just that there was a distinction between number 1 and top... something that most people aren't making. Number 1, to me, is either most yards or most yards per catch (with a good number of catches)--not most catches.

When we can say that AJ is the number 1 WR in the league after the first 7-8 weeks or so, then we have something we can point to and say, "we did something right." I think that having that would, at the least, give our franchise some credit for the media, in turn giving our franchise some much needed confidence. Right now, I'm willing to take whatever confidence we can get. It may be the difference in the last 2 minutes of certain games.

Grid
11-20-2006, 11:27 PM
Every player in the NFL has done that, or they wouldn't be there. There is holding on every single play. With wide outs vs corners there is bumping every play. The difference between AJ and these guys, they win every time. thats what im trying to say. Dont get me wrong. I love AJ and am happy with his production, I couldnt ask for more. The guy asked what seperates him from those guys, I simply added what i saw. Im not saying he sucks, id be a fool to. Do i think hes at the level of TO, 85, Moss, and others, not yet, but he can and will be, with time, but you can't tell me hes perfect, cause then you'd be the D.A. He has to fix some things before he becomes the best in the league. He doesn't get seperation nearly as well as those other guys. So i stick by what i said, he doesn't have that desire yet, that he is going to beat that corner every play, and every play is going all the way. He doesn't consistently blow by corners. Give it time and he will, but hes just not there yet.

Other receivers only win every time on Sportscenter. They drop passes too. Throws to them get swatted down too. They get shut down, they get intercepted, id bet that sometimes..they even lose a jump ball.

TheRealJoker
11-20-2006, 11:35 PM
Other receivers only win every time on Sportscenter. They drop passes too. Throws to them get swatted down too. They get shut down, they get intercepted, id bet that sometimes..they even lose a jump ball.

Do they also let a ball bounce off their numbers and into the NFL's version of Little John's hands?

Stop acting like losing the jump ball is the only thing AJ's done this season. He's done far more good than bad, but he is not immune to criticism, noone on a 3-7 football team is....that's not an opinion that is FACT.

PS: To the guy that asked if I could have taken the ball from Clements and if I couldn't then I have no right to talk...

This is what we call a message board where fans can post their opinions. If there weren't fans with opinions there would be no jump ball for AJ and Nate to fight for. Have you never commented on a professional sports game before? Is everyone in the stadium supposed to sit in their seats quietly watching the game? Should a no talking rule be instituted for the fans? Is there such a thing as free speech in America? Can I think of more questions to ask?

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 11:36 PM
Smith did that? I thought those games came from Frank Gores legs, Smith had like 105 yds before the Seattle game. I don't think he even broke 100 against the Vikings. I'd if we won 3 in a row with those stats you would still be a Carr hater.

Where did I say it was because of Alex Smith? I didn't, that's where. Your comment implied that Smith is a significant downgrade from Carr even though their numbers are pretty close this year.

Grid
11-20-2006, 11:38 PM
He's done far more good than bad


DING DING DING DING DING! :yahoo:

Tell him what he has won Johnny!

A CLUE! :redtowel:

ib4texans
11-20-2006, 11:41 PM
Where did I say it was because of Alex Smith? I didn't, that's where. Your comment implied that Smith is a significant downgrade from Carr even though their numbers are pretty close this year.

I actually said that I would have liked to have seen AJ put up his numbers last year with Alex Smith last year. Maybe he could have, I do remember the Texans losing to the Niners last year without Carr in the game.

TheRealJoker
11-20-2006, 11:42 PM
DING DING DING DING DING! :yahoo:

Tell him what he has won Johnny!

A CLUE! :redtowel:

Did you forget the entire point of this thread in your multiple rants about how AJ has never made a mistake...that we should speak of?

run-david-run
11-20-2006, 11:43 PM
Oh, wait... leading receiver... in receptions? Give me a break.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/RECYDS/2006/regular

Yeah... 14 more receptions than most other people, but yet, less yards. I'm sorry, but no. Not number 1 in my eyes. Yardage means a lot more to me than catches; YPC more than either, which again, he is actually lower than most other people on the list.

Umm catches are pretty important. If you average about 12 yards a catch, then most of your catches are going for 1st downs. The things AJ lacks is a lot of big plays. I think he has 1 catch of 55 against Washington, and about 4 of 40 yards. Other then that, he has had a bunch of catches for 25 yards and less, meaning that he has very few big plays to inflate his yardage and ypc. Its like a running back that dosnt get a bunch of big plays, but he consitantnly gets enough for the first down. AJ is the Edgerin James (while he was with the Colts) of WR's this season. He is also the most targetted receiver in the NFL and over 35% of all our pass attempts are aimed at him.

AlbinoRat
11-20-2006, 11:52 PM
OK this is from NFL.com:
AJ's career long is 54 yards. He has only had eleven catches for more than 40
T.O.: Long-91 yards 40+:42
Smith: Long-80 yards 40+: 19 and thats with only 1 game in '04 and starting 1 in '01
Holt: Long-85 yards 40+: 34
Harrison: Long-80 yards 40+: 37
85: Long-82 yards 40+:29
By the way AJ only has 16 career TD catches.
In a single season, Harrison, Holt, 85, T.O., and Smith have all had 10 plus TDs

I would also like to add Randy Moss to the list.
Long of 82, 57 catches for 40+ and more than 10 TDs in '98,'99,'00,'01,'03, and '04

In his first season alone compare his stats with AJs career

Moss 69 catches, 1313 yards, 17 TDs, 14 for 40+, 51 first downs
AJ 282 catches, 3690 yards, 16 TDs, 11 for 40+, 179 first downs

do you really want me to keep going? are does it hurt enough. AJ isnt on their level yet.

thunderkyss
11-20-2006, 11:55 PM
When we can say that AJ is the number 1 WR in the league after the first 7-8 weeks or so, then we have something we can point to and say, "we did something right." I think that having that would, at the least, give our franchise some credit for the media, in turn giving our franchise some much needed confidence. Right now, I'm willing to take whatever confidence we can get. It may be the difference in the last 2 minutes of certain games.

This is week 11. Andre was leading in Yards after week 8.

GP
11-20-2006, 11:55 PM
AJ stinks.

Who cares about his stats. His stats don't win us games.

We still lose.

I mean, that's the line the Carr haters are carrying....so it goes for AJ and Meco. Those guys stink as bad as Carr if we apply the same logic.

Don't ya' think?

TheRealJoker
11-20-2006, 11:57 PM
AJ stinks.

Who cares about his stats. His stats don't win us games.

We still lose.

I mean, that's the line the Carr haters are carrying....so it goes for AJ and Meco. Those guys stink as bad as Carr if we apply the same logic.

Don't ya' think?

STOP ALL THAT UNBIASED THINKING!!!

run-david-run
11-20-2006, 11:58 PM
OK this is from NFL.com:
AJ's career long is 54 yards. He has only had eleven catches for more than 40
T.O.: Long-91 yards 40+:42
Smith: Long-80 yards 40+: 19 and thats with only 1 game in '04 and starting 1 in '01
Holt: Long-85 yards 40+: 34
Harrison: Long-80 yards 40+: 37
85: Long-82 yards 40+:29
By the way AJ only has 16 career TD catches.
In a single season, Harrison, Holt, 85, T.O., and Smith have all had 10 plus TDs

I would also like to add Randy Moss to the list.
Long of 82, 57 catches for 40+ and more than 10 TDs in '98,'99,'00,'01,'03, and '04

In his first season alone compare his stats with AJs career

Moss 69 catches, 1313 yards, 17 TDs, 14 for 40+, 51 first downs
AJ 282 catches, 3690 yards, 16 TDs, 11 for 40+, 179 first downs

do you really want me to keep going? are does it hurt enough. AJ isnt on their level yet.
The same reasons Carr has struggled apply to AJ's lack of big plays. If you are getting sacked at a record pace, its a little unlikley the coaches are going to be calling the 7 step drops needed to get the ball downfield. What do you expect to happen when for his first 3 years about half the balls thrown in his direction were hitches a yard behind the line of scrimmage?

Kaiser Toro
11-21-2006, 12:01 AM
AJ stinks.

Who cares about his stats. His stats don't win us games.

We still lose.

I mean, that's the line the Carr haters are carrying....so it goes for AJ and Meco. Those guys stink as bad as Carr if we apply the same logic.

Don't ya' think?

Are you really going out on a limb to hate on our two best players and sacrifice your virtual integrity for a QB that has done jack over four years? Preach on preacher!

thunderkyss
11-21-2006, 12:03 AM
The same reasons Carr has struggled apply to AJ's lack of big plays. If you are getting sacked at a record pace, its a little unlikley the coaches are going to be calling the 7 step drops needed to get the ball downfield. What do you expect to happen when for his first 3 years about half the balls thrown in his direction were hitches a yard behind the line of scrimmage?

Both 83 yard TDs in yesterdays game, were on 5 step drops.

David went deep for Moulds & AJ, had he placed the ball where our guy could have got them, those would have been over 40 yards.

I'm just saying there have been opportunity..... the ball wasn't placed where it needed to be.

ib4texans
11-21-2006, 12:08 AM
[Originally Posted by gpshafer_1976
AJ stinks.

Who cares about his stats. His stats don't win us games.

We still lose.

I mean, that's the line the Carr haters are carrying....so it goes for AJ and Meco. Those guys stink as bad as Carr if we apply the same logic.

Don't ya' think?

Are you really going out on a limb to hate on our two best players and sacrifice your virtual integrity for a QB that has done jack over four years? Preach on preacher!
__________________
Yeah! Be a team player and only bash Carr!

AlbinoRat
11-21-2006, 12:20 AM
I love you guys

mexican_texan
11-21-2006, 12:52 AM
How many more threads are there complaining about AJ than about CC Brown, Glenn Earl, Faggins, and Sanders?

thunderkyss
11-21-2006, 12:58 AM
How many more threads are there complaining about AJ than about CC Brown, Glenn Earl, Faggins, and Sanders?

There's very little to argue there.... we all know they all need to be replaced, and probably will be here in the next offseason or two. We all agree on this.

NOw...... there are some folks trying to make the argument that Andre sucks.... but I have a feeling they don't really believe that, they're just trying to get back at the Carr haters

ib4texans
11-21-2006, 01:05 AM
There's very little to argue there.... we all know they all need to be replaced, and probably will be here in the next offseason or two. We all agree on this.

NOw...... there are some folks trying to make the argument that Andre sucks.... but I have a feeling they don't really believe that, they're just trying to get back at the Carr haters


Andre doesn't suck,Carr doesn't suck. Plummer sucks,he's got a great defense,wide receiver,running backs,and a good future QB backing him up. Plummer lost Denvers game last night period.

run-david-run
11-21-2006, 01:55 AM
Both 83 yard TDs in yesterdays game, were on 5 step drops.

David went deep for Moulds & AJ, had he placed the ball where our guy could have got them, those would have been over 40 yards.

I'm just saying there have been opportunity..... the ball wasn't placed where it needed to be.

There is a differance between throwing at DeMarcus Faggins or a pro bowler in Nate Clemenes. It is possible for the other team to stop us from doing something, most of us Texans fans just arnt used to that because we usualy stop ourselves long before the other team has to.

phan1
11-21-2006, 07:28 AM
I have been critical of AJ as well. Unlike some people, I don't think any player is above heavy crticism no matter how good they are. But I don't see how AJ can make that catch, and Nate Clemens is one of the best corners out there. Actually, he was on AJ's grill all day. We tried going deep to AJ twice and Clemens had him totally beat twice. But that play was on Carr. That pass was hardly catchable. It was up high and Nate Clemens totally has a hand on the ball. Carr needs to make that throw. AJ wasn't the problem on that one.

And as for that 3rd down play, I don't know... I understand how Kubiak wanted to put the ball in Carr's hand and end the game there. Plus, we could have been easily stuffed on 3rd and short. A lot of people asked why we didn't run it when our run game has been working for us. The run game was not very consistent late in the game. Despite some good gains, we were getting stuffed on many plays. I can see why Kubiak thought the best way to get that 1st was by passing the ball.

In the end, VERY dissappointing loss. These are the games you need to win to get better. You need to start winning games that you are supposed to win. We definitely haven't fully turned the corner yet, despite having played well the past couple games. In 2004, we played well in a whole lot of games but we still ended up 5-11. Playing well just isn't enough anymore.

thunderkyss
11-21-2006, 08:29 AM
There is a differance between throwing at DeMarcus Faggins or a pro bowler in Nate Clemenes. It is possible for the other team to stop us from doing something, most of us Texans fans just arnt used to that because we usualy stop ourselves long before the other team has to.

Regardless.... there is more to it, than "beating" a WR...... depending on the coverage, if the CB is on top, you underthrow the ball... David didn't.. When the DB is trailing, you lead the reciever, David's been throwing those underneath. If we're going to say that NateClemens beat AJ, and made it difficult for AJ to do his job, David has got to put the ball in the right place, & Nate has to make a play. If he's just running out there, and AJ takes a penalty on purpose to keep him from catching the ball..... we can't say that Nate "beat" anybody.

But that play was on Carr. That pass was hardly catchable. It was up high and Nate Clemens totally has a hand on the ball. Carr needs to make that throw. AJ wasn't the problem on that one.


Carr was hit pretty hard as he threw that ball....

texan279
11-21-2006, 08:37 AM
AJ stinks.

Who cares about his stats. His stats don't win us games.

We still lose.

I mean, that's the line the Carr haters are carrying....so it goes for AJ and Meco. Those guys stink as bad as Carr if we apply the same logic.

Don't ya' think?

Amen, rep coming your way.

mexican_texan
11-21-2006, 09:37 AM
Before this game, AJ was the most consistent receiver in the league. More 100 yd. or 1+ TD games than the "elite" recievers.

JDizzle
11-21-2006, 09:42 AM
It doesn't matter MT. If he can't bail Carr out 100% of the time he sucks.

texan279
11-21-2006, 09:52 AM
Before this game, AJ was the most consistent receiver in the league. More 100 yd. or 1+ TD games than the "elite" recievers.

Ok, everyone is complaining about Carr not throwing TD's and how bad he is yet AJ gets pimped because of the number of games he has played this season and caught a TD pass? Did he throw them to himself? And by the way, why are stats used to pimp guys like AJ around here so much yet so many around here say Carr's stats don't matter?

GP
11-21-2006, 09:53 AM
Are you really going out on a limb to hate on our two best players and sacrifice your virtual integrity for a QB that has done jack over four years? Preach on preacher!

I'm going out on the same limb that a few others are going out on.

It's called the "Find a way to hate somebody" limb.

That's not sacrificing my integrity. It's STANDING UP for it.

GP
11-21-2006, 09:59 AM
Both 83 yard TDs in yesterdays game, were on 5 step drops.

David went deep for Moulds & AJ, had he placed the ball where our guy could have got them, those would have been over 40 yards.

I'm just saying there have been opportunity..... the ball wasn't placed where it needed to be.

Do what?!

Did AJ have a hand on the ball or what? He did.

How much MORE does Carr get that ball to AJ?

Pleeeeeeeeease, TK.

That's a real stretch, you gotta' be kidding me.

"Wasn't placed where it needed to be." ????????????????????

A guy throws a deep ball and AJ was right THERE when it came down. The ball wasn't 10 yards away from him. It was right there within his grasp.

You're bailing out AJ......again......and making Carr out to be the guy who failed to "get him the ball." Did AJ have to make an adjustment? Yes. But could he have made the catch? Absolutely. He's "The Man," after all.

Never ceases to amaze me....

Kaiser Toro
11-21-2006, 10:01 AM
I'm going out on the same limb that a few others are going out on.

It's called the "Find a way to hate somebody" limb.

That's not sacrificing my integrity. It's STANDING UP for it.

Find a way? Hardly. The data is there, the lack of perfromance is there, how this offense performs when Carr is not in the game is there (with different regimes) and lastly the results are not there. There is no limb when it comes to Carr, but the artificail limb you are promoting by going after AJ and Demeco sounds like a real winner that in my opinion not many Texan fans will join you on. I always took you to be a Texan fan, not a Carr fan.

HOU-TEX
11-21-2006, 10:29 AM
IMO, the balls that were thrown deep to AJ shouldn't have been thrown at all. Nate Clements had AJ covered like a blanket. AJ is one of the best receivers inthe league. Top 10 for sure.

I thought it was kind of humerous when he shoved Clements to prevent him from getting another pick. It definetly would've been a pick too. In addition to being pretty funny, it was the right thing to do.:twocents:

Kaiser Toro
11-21-2006, 10:42 AM
IMO, the balls that were thrown deep to AJ shouldn't have been thrown at all. Nate Clements had AJ covered like a blanket. AJ is one of the best receivers inthe league. Top 10 for sure.

I thought it was kind of humerous when he shoved Clements to prevent him from getting another pick. It definetly would've been a pick too. In addition to being pretty funny, it was the right thing to do.:twocents:

I want to see the play again, but I felt that AJ should have made a play on the ball and not on the defender. The result was better than an interception, but that is how I felt at the game.

GP
11-21-2006, 10:49 AM
Find a way? Hardly. The data is there, the lack of perfromance is there, how this offense performs when Carr is not in the game is there (with different regimes) and lastly the results are not there. There is no limb when it comes to Carr, but the artificail limb you are promoting by going after AJ and Demeco sounds like a real winner that in my opinion not many Texan fans will join you on. I always took you to be a Texan fan, not a Carr fan.

Do I really have to put the SARCASM sign after my statement about AJ and Demeco?

Come on, KT. You know better.

It is what it is: People hate Carr. How much easier does it get than that?

I can point out guys who allow sacks at critical times, holding at critical times, drop balls at critical times, let WRs blow by them multiple times, false start multiple times, shank punts multiple times, shank kicks multiple times, call bad plays multiple times, you get the picture.

I AM a Texans fan. And this TEAM has all made errors at critical times.

But one guy is having his stats tracked and the others are not.

Let's track everyone's stats and see if it's JUST Carr or if it's also a few others who are just as easily causing us to lose some games.

I don't endlessly bang on any player. I just started in on Cook and Stanley because they honestly are failing consistently in critical points of the game. And I feel it's time that others get called out for it.

I never figured YOU would question my loyalty to this team. Go read my posts and see how rah-rah I am, and how many times I rebuke those who are negative and bash this team. Unreal. Thanks, man. 'Preciate ya.

Kaiser Toro
11-21-2006, 11:06 AM
I never question your's and other's loyalty to the team and frankly that is not anyone's role to do so, especially in this medium. Emotions usually follow the losses and consequently old wounds that do not heal are re opened. We all want the Texans to win, but there are two fronts here that see different paths to that winning record.

I fall in to the fold that we have talent and depth issues in the secondary, depth and talent issue at LB, talent and depth issues on the Oline, injuries to the DL and lastly paying premium money at QB for minimal production and contribution to the success of the offense. I simply want to take that money back invested for non production at QB and help offset our gaps elsewhere. Feasible it is not, due to the cap implications of his extension. However, there is trending data all over the place to suggest we should try something different under center. Moreover, there are plenty of best practices by other teams, in similiar circumstances, making changes for the better in the short term and long term.

We were behind the curve when we drafted Boselli in the expansion and trading up to draft Babin and signing Smith, Wade and Greenwood in FA. These are all mistakes that have been made, it would be reasonable to think that other moves were mistakes as well. With other teams making the move this year at changing the guard at QB, we need to make sure that we do not continue to fall behind the curve for the long term and make moves through addition or addtion through subtraction that make sense for the well being of the team on the field of play and fiscally.

HOU-TEX
11-21-2006, 11:07 AM
I want to see the play again, but I felt that AJ should have made a play on the ball and not on the defender. The result was better than an interception, but that is how I felt at the game.

By watching the play and all of the following replays on TV (unable to attend the game due to family in town), it was clearly going to drop right in the DBs bread basket. Maybe others see it differently, but to me it was going to be a sure pick.:twocents:

Kaiser Toro
11-21-2006, 11:10 AM
By watching the play and all of the following replays on TV (unable to attend the game due to family in town), it was clearly going to drop right in the DBs bread basket. Maybe others see it differently, but to me it was going to be a sure pick.:twocents:

Like I said, that was my feeling at the game as it was right in front of me, but do understand that replays and the residual angles of those replays usually fill in the blanks.

thunderkyss
11-21-2006, 11:13 AM
Do what?!

Did AJ have a hand on the ball or what? He did.

You're bailing out AJ......again......and making Carr out to be the guy who failed to "get him the ball." Did AJ have to make an adjustment? Yes. But could he have made the catch? Absolutely. He's "The Man," after all.

Never ceases to amaze me....

on the INT by Nate, AJ did what every other WR in the league would've done. He had no play on that ball. David got hit, and the ball did not go where he wanted it to.

On a play where the CB is leading our reciever, the ball should be underthrown. When the CB is trailing, the ball should be thrown over the top. He's put the ball in the wrong spot for AJ, Eric, & Walter......

There are things AJ is doing that he should be criticised about.... dropping balls... not securing the ball.. poor routes.... like that double move he put on Jacksonville.... he never took his eyes off the corner. if the corner was worth his billing, he wouldn't have bit on the first move, because AJ did a poor job of selling the out route.

but to think AJ could have made a play on the deep routes that were thrown to him.... or Moulds for that matter is asinine.

mexican_texan
11-21-2006, 11:13 AM
Since we're hating on Carr's #1 target, what happened to the Weatherman? He's supposed to be Carr's safety valve. No way two rookie safeties shut him down...right?

HOU-TEX
11-21-2006, 11:15 AM
Like I said, that was my feeling at the game as it was right in front of me, but do understand that replays and the residual angles of those replays usually fill in the blanks.

I understand. I wasn't questioning what you'd seen at the game. I was just trying to help clear things up on what happened. :redtowel:

texan279
11-21-2006, 11:19 AM
on the INT by Nate, AJ did what every other WR in the league would've done. He had no play on that ball. David got hit, and the ball did not go where he wanted it to.

On a play where the CB is leading our reciever, the ball should be underthrown. When the CB is trailing, the ball should be thrown over the top. He's put the ball in the wrong spot for AJ, Eric, & Walter......

There are things AJ is doing that he should be criticised about.... dropping balls... not securing the ball.. poor routes.... like that double move he put on Jacksonville.... he never took his eyes off the corner. if the corner was worth his billing, he wouldn't have bit on the first move, because AJ did a poor job of selling the out route.

but to think AJ could have made a play on the deep routes that were thrown to him.... or Moulds for that matter is asinine.

The ball that Carr threw that was picked off was in AJ's hands and the DB ripped it out of his hands as they were falling down.

mexican_texan
11-21-2006, 11:23 AM
The ball that Carr threw that was picked off was in AJ's hands and the DB ripped it out of his hands as they were falling down.
To add to the argument, anyone remember Will "can't catch a cold" Allen?

MrMeToo
11-21-2006, 05:14 PM
Whats with all the AJ bashing,Carr is the one that sucks...

Goldeagle
11-21-2006, 05:21 PM
AJ drops way to many passes and he freely admits it. He is a great talent, and he will make the hard catches, but the run of the mill catches he seems to drop.

ib4texans
11-21-2006, 05:31 PM
Whats with all the AJ bashing,Carr is the one that sucks...

Wow! Do you just cut and paste that in all threads? I for one don't think any of our players suck,its just funny that none are held accountable except Carr.:twocents:

Titan "Tack" Fan
11-21-2006, 05:40 PM
All homerism aside, who will legitimately make the Pro Bowl this year for you guys?

JDizzle
11-21-2006, 05:44 PM
AJ is probably the only one with a shot, but I would like to see him making more grabs for points.

eriadoc
11-21-2006, 05:53 PM
All homerism aside, who will legitimately make the Pro Bowl this year for you guys?

AJ deserves it and Demeco Ryans deserves it. Beyond that, I'm not sure we have any worthy players this year. AJ might get squeezed because of the competition and some big-name players that often get fan votes despite actual production.

thunderkyss
11-21-2006, 06:59 PM
The ball that Carr threw that was picked off was in AJ's hands and the DB ripped it out of his hands as they were falling down.

Nate Clements had perfect position. AJ hit the ground with one hand on the ground, and another hand on the ball. Nate had two hands on the ball, not AJ. AJ was not in position to get that ball.

kcwilson
11-21-2006, 07:29 PM
Like I said, that was my feeling at the game as it was right in front of me, but do understand that replays and the residual angles of those replays usually fill in the blanks.

At game speed, Johnson was preventing a tragedy of an interception for sure. At that point, couldn't afford the risk of a turnover. I thought it was smart to give them a chance to keep the ball... He knows it was taken away from him once, and had the same thoughts again I am sure with only a split second to decide.

kcwilson
11-21-2006, 07:30 PM
AJ deserves it and Demeco Ryans deserves it. Beyond that, I'm not sure we have any worthy players this year. AJ might get squeezed because of the competition and some big-name players that often get fan votes despite actual production.

Sadly, I think AJ falls short unless he can post another 4-5 tds in the last few games. Pro Bowlers need to find the end zone and a bunch of receptions isn't probably enough vs. Chad Johnson and others coming on late with yards and tds.

TexansSeminole
11-21-2006, 07:35 PM
Most of AJs receptions are AJs RECEPTIONS, not CARRS THROWS...AJ makes Carr look good.

gameguy89
11-21-2006, 11:36 PM
***REQUEST***
I'm not one to usually ask the mods to do something (serious or jokingly), but can somebody please force anybody making a comment on Carr's pick in the Buffalo game to watch.the.freaking.play before they make a post?

You people and your need to bring somebody down has, for some reason, led you to believe that AJ had any remote chance of catching that ball. I most wholeheartedly assure you, he did not.

There have been plays where AJ had his hands on the ball and the defender comes and just takes it from him (the Titan's game, I believe), but this was not one of them. Nate Clements had the ball the entire way. His arm was wrapped around the ball far before AJ even had a chance to touch it and when a corner has his arm wrapped around the ball--especially one as tough as Clements--he is not letting go.

Face it. Hate Carr, or love him, the ball was thrown in such a way that Clements became the receiver and AJ the corner. A corner cannot beat a perfectly thrown ball.

And that was a perfectly thrown ball. To Clements.

Wolf
11-21-2006, 11:40 PM
I didn't see it.. all i know when I played WR in highschool, if I got a hand on it no matter the throw and didn't catch it.. I ran laps..

I am not saying Aj could or could not catch it I am just saying.

gameguy89
11-21-2006, 11:44 PM
The thing is that he got a hand on it after Clements got his arm around it. If you had to run laps for that kind of a play, it was for allowing the corner to do so, hence, why AJ committed pass interference the second time it happened.

ib4texans
11-21-2006, 11:49 PM
***REQUEST***
I'm not one to usually ask the mods to do something (serious or jokingly), but can somebody please force anybody making a comment on Carr's pick in the Buffalo game to watch.the.freaking.play before they make a post?

You people and your need to bring somebody down has, for some reason, led you to believe that AJ had any remote chance of catching that ball. I most wholeheartedly assure you, he did not.

There have been plays where AJ had his hands on the ball and the defender comes and just takes it from him (the Titan's game, I believe), but this was not one of them. Nate Clements had the ball the entire way. His arm was wrapped around the ball far before AJ even had a chance to touch it and when a corner has his arm wrapped around the ball--especially one as tough as Clements--he is not letting go.

Face it. Hate Carr, or love him, the ball was thrown in such a way that Clements became the receiver and AJ the corner. A corner cannot beat a perfectly thrown ball.

And that was a perfectly thrown ball. To Clements.


Let us not forget the DE in David Carrs face while young Winston was getting acclimated to his condition/position. I think David Carr thought he was going to get it away before contact. I do believe Dre had a good amount of his arm around the ball when they both came down, I even thought he had it for a moment. It was just a bad situation/Winston/Carr/Dre they were all trying to get things done.

Wolf
11-21-2006, 11:56 PM
The thing is that he got a hand on it after Clements got his arm around it. If you had to run laps for that kind of a play, it was for allowing the corner to do so, hence, why AJ committed pass interference the second time it happened.

well maybe in the offseason Carr needs to take meteorology classes and read the wind :heh:

texan279
11-21-2006, 11:56 PM
***REQUEST***
I'm not one to usually ask the mods to do something (serious or jokingly), but can somebody please force anybody making a comment on Carr's pick in the Buffalo game to watch.the.freaking.play before they make a post?

You people and your need to bring somebody down has, for some reason, led you to believe that AJ had any remote chance of catching that ball. I most wholeheartedly assure you, he did not.

There have been plays where AJ had his hands on the ball and the defender comes and just takes it from him (the Titan's game, I believe), but this was not one of them. Nate Clements had the ball the entire way. His arm was wrapped around the ball far before AJ even had a chance to touch it and when a corner has his arm wrapped around the ball--especially one as tough as Clements--he is not letting go.

Face it. Hate Carr, or love him, the ball was thrown in such a way that Clements became the receiver and AJ the corner. A corner cannot beat a perfectly thrown ball.

And that was a perfectly thrown ball. To Clements.

I watched the whole game, and like I said before maybe the ball should not have been thrown, but AJ had the ball in his hands and had the ball taken from him by Clements. Here watch this clip...http://www.buffalobills.com/multimedia/, about half way into the clip they show the INT and you can clearly see that AJ and Clements are fighting for the ball on the way down and Clements even said while the clip is playing that "we were fighting for the ball and I just came up with it."

texan279
11-22-2006, 12:04 AM
After watching that clip about 6 times, AJ should have had that ball, Clements just plain outjumped AJ and made a helluva play on the ball.

Ibar_Harry
11-22-2006, 12:21 AM
First, that was not a jump ball. David was getting hit as he threw it, and I'm sure it didn't go anywhere near where he wanted it to go. Secondly, NateClements was in better position to get that ball than AJ was. Third, AJ is not a defensive back, and forth....... AJ should have came down with that ball.

if we're going to consider him Elite.

But...... every other pass that he or Eric, or Jameel, or anyone who caught a ball this season... has been thrown behind them. That's just where David likes to put them I guess.

there may have been a few that were in front, but for the most part, David likes to throw behind his recievers.

And considering the YAC Andre's been getting, I'd say he's Elite.

It was mention in last week's Denver game that Shan teaches the QB to throw short of the receiver. They do not want to overthrow the receiver. I assume Kubiak is doing the same thing. Its their belief that the receiver has a better shot at the ball under those circumstances. I'm just conveying what the theory is, not whether it is right or wrong.

The Pencil Neck
11-22-2006, 01:08 AM
All homerism aside, who will legitimately make the Pro Bowl this year for you guys?

Right now, I don't see anyone on our team that I really like for the Pro Bowl. The two closest would be AJ and Demeco.

If Owen Daniels wasn't going up against Gonzalez and Gates for the spot, I'd say he was a good choice. Especially if he duplicates the success he had the first half of the season. I think 10 td's for a TE is a pretty good stat.

MrMeToo
11-22-2006, 10:11 AM
Most of AJs receptions are AJs RECEPTIONS, not CARRS THROWS...AJ makes Carr look good.

I agree...