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texan279
11-20-2006, 09:35 AM
When Faggins and Cook basically single handedly cost us the game yesterday? I've seen about 20 threads bashing Carr, 1 about Cook, and 0 about Faggins. The one INT Carr threw was AJ's fault not Carr's, AJ had the ball taken out of his hands, again. I've read that Carr is not a leader blah blah blah because he couldn't bring us back, yet we were down 14-0 in the 1st quarter but we came back and took the lead and then our defense lets Buffalo march down the field and score a game winning TD in the last minute and a half. Faggins gets burned not once, but twice in the 1st quarter for 2 80+ yard TD's yet people come here to bash Carr. :confused:

TexansLucky13
11-20-2006, 09:39 AM
I think the INT was Carr's fault, personally, but I agree with you in what you are saying.

You just have to ignore what they say. Personally I find their arguments dull, childish and generally misguided.

Those of us who know better just have to steer clear of the ignorance. Keep fighting the good fight, bro!

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 09:40 AM
When Faggins and Cook basically single handedly cost us the game yesterday? I've seen about 20 threads bashing Carr, 1 about Cook, and 0 about Faggins. The one INT Carr threw was AJ's fault not Carr's, AJ had the ball taken out of his hands, again. I've read that Carr is not a leader blah blah blah because he couldn't bring us back, yet we were down 14-0 in the 1st quarter but we came back and took the lead and then our defense lets Buffalo march down the field and score a game winning TD in the last minute and a half. Faggins gets burned not once, but twice in the 1st quarter for 2 80+ yard TD's yet people come here to bash Carr. :confused:

Because one should expect more from a guy that gets paid 7 million a year, like mixing in a TD pass through a 4 game stretch. Faggins and Cook were part of the problem in the first half. This was a team loss and not squarely on Carr's shoulders, as is the case mostly every time.

HJam72
11-20-2006, 09:43 AM
The interference call on AJ was him preventing another int. by Carr. I can't say what I think about Carr right now.

TexansLucky13
11-20-2006, 09:43 AM
Because one should expect more from a guy that gets paid 7 million a year, like a mixing in a TD pass through a 4 game stretch.

See, texan279.... you have to understand that if the Texan receiving core doesn't get in position to snag a TD, it is Carr's fault.

It takes two to get a receiving TD, KT, and yesterday there wasn't a chance for that.

Runner
11-20-2006, 09:44 AM
First interception, IMO:

1) Carr throws a floating jump ball to Andre. Not a very good throw, but not always bad because Dre catches a lot of these. At least it was a shot downfield.

2) Andre loses jump ball. Sometimes this happens in jump ball situations. I thought he fought hard for the ball.

3) Defensive end blows by a Winston whiff and Carr gets nailed as he throws. This lack of room may have led to the ball floating more than intended.

texan279
11-20-2006, 09:44 AM
The interference call on AJ was him preventing another int. by Carr. I can't say what I think about Carr right now.

I think the interference call on AJ was a smart play, I am talking about when he had the ball stripped from his hands for an INT for the second time this season.

texan279
11-20-2006, 09:47 AM
First interception, IMO:

1) Carr throws a floating jump ball to Andre. Not a very good throw, but not always bad because Dre catches a lot of these. At least it was a shot downfield.

2) Andre loses jump ball. Sometimes this happens in jump ball situations. I thought he fought hard for the ball.

3) Defensive end blows by a Winston whiff and Carr gets nailed as he throws. This lack of room may have led to the ball floating more than intended.

AJ had the ball in his hands IIRC, if he is supposed to be such a big strong WR, why does he keep getting balls ripped from his hands by DB's?

real
11-20-2006, 09:47 AM
I think the interference call on AJ was a smart play, I am talking about when he had the ball stripped from his hands for an INT for the second time this season.

He was just pointing out another Carr mistake....

A.J had to stop the guy from intercepting it because of a poorly placed throw by Carr....

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 09:48 AM
See, texan279.... you have to understand that if the Texan receiving core doesn't get in position to snag a TD, it is Carr's fault.

It takes two to get a receiving TD, KT, and yesterday there wasn't a chance for that.

Four games, not yesterday. Four games which is a quarter of a season. We are going back to the future unfortunately.

HJam72
11-20-2006, 09:50 AM
I think the interference call on AJ was a smart play, I am talking about when he had the ball stripped from his hands for an INT for the second time this season.

I know, I was just adding another, seperate thing, in case ya'll didn't know.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 09:52 AM
When Faggins and Cook basically single handedly cost us the game yesterday? I've seen about 20 threads bashing Carr, 1 about Cook, and 0 about Faggins. The one INT Carr threw was AJ's fault not Carr's, AJ had the ball taken out of his hands, again. I've read that Carr is not a leader blah blah blah because he couldn't bring us back, yet we were down 14-0 in the 1st quarter but we came back and took the lead and then our defense lets Buffalo march down the field and score a game winning TD in the last minute and a half. Faggins gets burned not once, but twice in the 1st quarter for 2 80+ yard TD's yet people come here to bash Carr. :confused:

Carr threw 22 completions in a row? I was at the game and extremely underwhelmed with his feat of high QB ranking daring do.

He doesn't make plays. Not that he wouldn't if he could, but he can't. Ok he can but not to the level needed to be a leader and a winner in the NFL. He threw 22 dinks and dunks in a row and I looked to my kid and said this reminded me of that #@$^%@#$@$%Y$ run and shoot without the rocket armed Warren Moon.

Here's the bad news.

Gary Kubiak is a good coach but I find that unless it's John Elway under the snap, this controlled roll/running QB style is awful. I want a team that keeps the QB in the pocket throwing darts and bombs downfield. I want the 92-95 Cowboys. I want the Patriots. I want a team that doesn't have as it's centerpiece an undersized, weak armed QB running for his life. Wake me when the Dave Krieg era is over in Houston. Actually that was an insult to Dave. Krieg.

cuppacoffee
11-20-2006, 09:54 AM
I think the interference call on AJ was a smart play, I am talking about when he had the ball stripped from his hands for an INT for the second time this season.


Many of our posters would rather blame Carr for Andres' wussiness in fighting for the ball.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 09:55 AM
He was just pointing out another Carr mistake....

A.J had to stop the guy from intercepting it because of a poorly placed throw by Carr....

AJ nearly tore his hammy up trying to save Carr from that int. Carr can't throw a consistent fly. They need to take that out of the playbook. Also they need to tell David the other teams are hip to his love affair with AJ. When the chips are down and it's 4th and 2 you need to us AJ as a decoy. Did Terrell Owens catch a ball in the second half yesterday when the Cowboys made their little piece of history (gag me)? I don't think so.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 09:57 AM
When Faggins and Cook basically single handedly cost us the game yesterday? I've seen about 20 threads bashing Carr, 1 about Cook, and 0 about Faggins. The one INT Carr threw was AJ's fault not Carr's, AJ had the ball taken out of his hands, again. I've read that Carr is not a leader blah blah blah because he couldn't bring us back, yet we were down 14-0 in the 1st quarter but we came back and took the lead and then our defense lets Buffalo march down the field and score a game winning TD in the last minute and a half. Faggins gets burned not once, but twice in the 1st quarter for 2 80+ yard TD's yet people come here to bash Carr. :confused:

And it wasn't Faggins. It was our good run stopping but short legged too slow Jason Simmons and earlier CC Brown who got burned the worst. they couldn't complete the triangle of coverage in time when that little water bug took off down the sideline.

cuppacoffee
11-20-2006, 09:58 AM
AJ had the ball in his hands IIRC, if he is supposed to be such a big strong WR, why does he keep getting balls ripped from his hands by DB's?

Because AJ is severly overrated.

Here's positive rep coming your way.

:coffee:

TheOgre
11-20-2006, 10:01 AM
It has become very clear that we need to acquire (draft, trade, or FA) a NFL quality CB to play opposite Robinson. Also, WTH was CC Brown on those two Evan's TD?

kingh99
11-20-2006, 10:03 AM
re the Dave Krieg comparisons:

Most Fumbles, Season
23 Kerry Collins, N.Y. Giants, 2001
Daunte Culpepper, Minnesota, 2002
21 Tony Banks, St. Louis, 1996
David Carr, Houston, 2002
18 Dave Krieg, Seattle, 1989
Warren Moon, Houston, 1990

Carr puts the ball on the ground more than Krieg did? Wow!

nunusguy
11-20-2006, 10:04 AM
Many of our posters would rather blame Carr for Andres' wussiness in fighting for the ball.
That was an excellent pass by Carr and AJ basically had the ball, but the Bills
DB took it away from him.

cuppacoffee
11-20-2006, 10:14 AM
He was just pointing out another Carr mistake....

A.J had to stop the guy from intercepting it because of a poorly placed throw by Carr....

Add this poorly placed throw to the following:
1. AJ being out fought for the ball on the int.
2. the fumble by Jameel,
3. the two loooong TDs given up by our db's
4. the lack of pressure on Losman
5. the great gain of field possession our punter gained for us

I could name more, but lets run with the pack and bash Carr some more, its more in vogue these days.

cuppacoffee
11-20-2006, 10:23 AM
re the Dave Krieg comparisons:

Most Fumbles, Season
23 Kerry Collins, N.Y. Giants, 2001
Daunte Culpepper, Minnesota, 2002
21 Tony Banks, St. Louis, 1996
David Carr, Houston, 2002
18 Dave Krieg, Seattle, 1989
Warren Moon, Houston, 1990

Carr puts the ball on the ground more than Krieg did? Wow!

Is Carrs high QB rating a Wow!?

Is his 22 straight completions a Wow!?

Or do we just Wow! his negative stats?

Kinda like a smorgasbord isn't it? :drool: Pick and choose only what we like.

MrMeToo
11-20-2006, 10:24 AM
Carr is a wussy and overrated on this board by some posters...

threetoedpete
11-20-2006, 10:27 AM
It has become very clear that we need to acquire (draft, trade, or FA) a NFL quality CB to play opposite Robinson. Also, WTH was CC Brown on those two Evan's TD?

I posted this opinion on a couple of threads and I was wrong. Richard Smith DID leave Faggins on an Island on the first bomb to Evans. He said it on the 13 recap show in an interveiw. If that was the call, Brown( I believe it was Glenn Earl after watching it again) is off the hook. To his Moma, And Family I'm sorry.

The second one...that was shear lack of tallent. Guys were out of position and Evans split the seam. But for those of you who were banging on RS the first couple of games, can't have it both ways. If they don't get there on a blitz, you saw yesterday what the resluts of the Balls out gamble are. You live by the blitz and when you don't have guys who can get there you die by it. Get use to it. With Mario on the mend, we're back to the '05 defense. Cover duck and prey. The ten and six record guessers at the start of the year...their enthusiasim exceeded the tallent level of this team. That shecudle was...brutal.

real
11-20-2006, 10:28 AM
Add this poorly placed throw to the following:
1. AJ being out fought for the ball on the int.
2. the fumble by Jameel,
3. the two loooong TDs given up by our db's
4. the lack of pressure on Losman
5. the great gain of field possession our punter gained for us

I could name more, but lets run with the pack and bash Carr some more, its more in vogue these days.

First of all....I wasn't Bashing Carr...Just trying to clarify another statement that another poster made....

Second of all, this was a team loss....Neither unit played good enough to win....

But the thing about that is you can't judge Carr on the same level as the rest of the team...period...

Carr's mistakes will be magnified and rightfully so....

texan279
11-20-2006, 10:32 AM
First of all....I wasn't Bashing Carr...Just trying to clarify another statement that another poster made....

Second of all, this was a team loss....Neither unit played good enough to win....

But the thing about that is you can't judge Carr on the same level as the rest of the team...period...

Carr's mistakes will be magnified and rightfully so....

What mistakes did he make yesterday? I am not saying he played a perfect game, but he didn't get burned twice for 80+ yard TD's nor did he fumble the ball in the red zone in the 4th quarter to kill a drive that lost us at least 3 points.

Runner
11-20-2006, 10:34 AM
I've seen posts criticizing:

1) Carr
2) Dre
3) Cook
4) The offensive line
5) Kubiak
6) The refs
7) Stanley
8) Faggins
9) The safeties

Why the myopia?

real
11-20-2006, 10:35 AM
Is Carrs high QB rating a Wow!?

Is his 22 straight completions a Wow!?

Or do we just Wow! his negative stats?

Kinda like a smorgasbord isn't it? :drool: Pick and choose only what we like.

Im not a Carr basher...I'm not a Carr supporter....

I want to win...A mistake by Jameel Cook is not the same as a mistake by David Carr....

David is the QB....David is paid pretty well....

We are taliing about "the QB of our future".....Some of these other guys that are making mistakes or negative plays may not even be with our team next yr......I don't put this loss squarely on any one player, coach, or unit....But Carr did not do enough this past Sunday...period....

I am hoping Carr can improve and become a consistent above average performer, but at the same time I'm not going to be blissfully ignorant, and think that because of Kubes "credentials" and past success that he's going to get Carr to play like he and some fans envisioned....

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 10:37 AM
I think the interference call on AJ was a smart play, I am talking about when he had the ball stripped from his hands for an INT for the second time this season.

I don't think it should have been thrown to begin with. Asking AJ to catch a ball over his shoulder when he's covered over the top is a bit much. But at least Carr took a shot over the deep middle, so I can't complain too much. Sometimes you will get picked and sometimes you hit paydirt. AJ saved 2 picks, one on the pass interference call and once where he batted a ball away thrown directly to the DB.

real
11-20-2006, 10:37 AM
What mistakes did he make yesterday? I am not saying he played a perfect game, but he didn't get burned twice for 80+ yard TD's nor did he fumble the ball in the red zone in the 4th quarter to kill a drive that lost us at least 3 points.

I never said that Carr made any mistakes yesterday....But if you are trying to get me to believe that he played mistake free football, the you're barking up the wrong tree....

Get this in your head....

Faggins does not = Carr....

All players mistakes are not equal....

texan279
11-20-2006, 10:40 AM
I don't think it should have been thrown to begin with. Asking AJ to catch a ball over his shoulder when he's covered over the top is a bit much. But at least Carr took a shot over the deep middle, so I can't complain too much. Sometimes you will get picked and sometimes you hit paydirt. AJ saved 2 picks, one on the pass interference call and once where he batted a ball away thrown directly to the DB.

All I am saying is people complain about what Carr makes and what he does/doesn't do but the fact is AJ makes more than Carr does yet he seems to get a free pass for whatever reason, maybe the ball should not have been thrown, but AJ had the ball in his hands, and the DB snatched it right out of his hands. If he is going to get paid like a top 10 WR, he should play like one.

real
11-20-2006, 10:40 AM
What mistakes did he make yesterday? I am not saying he played a perfect game, but he didn't get burned twice for 80+ yard TD's nor did he fumble the ball in the red zone in the 4th quarter to kill a drive that lost us at least 3 points.

One more thing....

I haven't seen anyone say "we lost because of Carr"....

michaelm
11-20-2006, 10:41 AM
Because one should expect more from a guy that gets paid 7 million a year.


KT, could you please just make this statement your sig, and spare us all the repetition?

real
11-20-2006, 10:42 AM
All I am saying is people complain about what Carr makes and what he does/doesn't do but the fact is AJ makes more than Carr does yet he seems to get a free pass for whatever reason, maybe the ball should not have been thrown, but AJ had the ball in his hands, and the DB snatched it right out of his hands. If he is going to get paid like a top 10 WR, he should play like one.

Stop dreaming...Wake up....It's Monday man....Nov 20.....2006.....

There have been criticism of every player who has played poorly....

Hulk75
11-20-2006, 10:44 AM
Four games, not yesterday. Four games which is a quarter of a season. We are going back to the future unfortunately.

You name the play when we had a shoot at the end zone, last one I can think of is when Carr hit Andre wide open in Jax and the great Hawaiian could not run one more yard to score.

texan279
11-20-2006, 10:46 AM
I never said that Carr made any mistakes yesterday....But if you are trying to get me to believe that he played mistake free football, the you're barking up the wrong tree....

Get this in your head....

Faggins does not = Carr....

All players mistakes are not equal....

Go back and re read my post, I said I wasn't trying to say Carr played a mistake free game. And if you are saying that Faggins getting burned twice in the 1st quarter for 80+ yard TD's in the 1st quarter and Cook fumbling and costing us at least 3 points is not as bad as any mistake Carr would/could/did make, then I don't know what to tell you.

threetoedpete
11-20-2006, 10:47 AM
Carr is a wussy and overrated on this board by some posters...

Yeah the guy gets crushed behind his patch work o-line last game....on his thorwing shoulder...and he's a wussy. There's a reason the deep balls were floating yeaterday. So far the last three games, every pundant calling the games has called Carr's progress outstand. And...he's becoming what THEY THOUGHT HE'D BE WHEN HE WAS DRAFTED #1. You'd still be covering up under the sheets big guy with a shot he took in New York. There is nothing wrong with Carr. This is old news and anyone who thinks this way is behind the curve. You wanna go tramping with Sage & the snake next season...be my guest. Just don't come crying on this board when the team still suxs. Lack of tallent around him is not Carr's fault. Lack of support from the organazation is not Carr's fault. There's six OLT prospects, six of them mind you, on the board in this years draft. And we won't take one. And we never have. The o-line suxs, has suxed and untill they spend some draft capitol on that group...will sux. Hard to be a Porche with a Volkswagon engine under the hood. Hard to make all pro OLTs out of third round draft choices. Spend some draft capitol on the o-line, then I'd say you have a legit beef. Untill then, you're just wasting band width.

Runner
11-20-2006, 10:47 AM
KT, could you please just make this statement your sig, and spare us all the repetition?

Great idea!

After you change yours KT, then I'll make mine "We don't need so many swing players, we need better single position players".

We can then avoid the repetition (of typing anyway) by having our main themes on ALL of our posts.

texan279
11-20-2006, 10:50 AM
Because one should expect more from a guy that gets paid 7 million a year, like mixing in a TD pass through a 4 game stretch. Faggins and Cook were part of the problem in the first half. This was a team loss and not squarely on Carr's shoulders, as is the case mostly every time.

Then we should be expecting more from a guy who makes more than $7.75 mil a year, like not letting DB's rip balls out of his hands.

Marcus
11-20-2006, 10:50 AM
But the thing about that is you can't judge Carr on the same level as the rest of the team...period...

Carr's mistakes will be magnified and rightfully so....

...A mistake by Jameel Cook is not the same as a mistake by David Carr....

Why are you contradicting yourself?

You say it was a team loss, then you blame Carr for the loss more than anyone else.

Why? Just because he gets paid more? C'mon.

Hulk75
11-20-2006, 10:50 AM
Im not a Carr basher...I'm not a Carr supporter....

I want to win...A mistake by Jameel Cook is not the same as a mistake by David Carr....

David is the QB....David is paid pretty well....

We are taliing about "the QB of our future".....Some of these other guys that are making mistakes or negative plays may not even be with our team next yr......I don't put this loss squarely on any one player, coach, or unit....But Carr did not do enough this past Sunday...period....

I am hoping Carr can improve and become a consistent above average performer, but at the same time I'm not going to be blissfully ignorant, and think that because of Kubes "credentials" and past success that he's going to get Carr to play like he and some fans envisioned....

Like what, run more, throw it deep, throw over the middle, stand in the pockett and deliver, run a draw that gets called back for holding, throw a pass to cook and he fumbles, trust Andre to come down with the ball, put the 3 and 2 pass the only place he could have and for some strange reason expect his pro bowl reciever to catch it and not fall on the ground.

Vinny
11-20-2006, 10:52 AM
Why? Just because he gets paid more? C'mon.Are you still living in the capless 70's? If your superstar level salaried players aren't producing superstar quality play your team will struggle....there isn't an unlimited cap so you have to settle for lesser players at other positions since your money is tied up. The key to winning is for your big ticket players to play like big ticket players. When that doesn't happen...you get the Texans.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 10:54 AM
Yeah the guy gets crushed behind his patch work o-line last game....on his thorwing shoulder...and he's a wussy. There's a reason the deep balls were floating yeaterday. So far the last three games, every pundant calling the games has called Carr's progress outstand. And...he's becoming what THEY THOUGHT HE'D BE WHEN HE WAS DRAFTED #1. You'd still be covering up under the sheets big guy with a shot he took in New York. There is nothing wrong with Carr. This is old news and anyone who thinks this way is behind the curve. You wanna go tramping with Sage & the snake next season...be my guest. Just don't come crying on this board when the team still suxs. Lack of tallent around him is not Carr's fault. Lack of support from the organazation is not Carr's fault. There's six OLT prospects, six of them mind you, on the board in this years draft. And we won't take one. And we never have. The o-line suxs, has suxed and untill they spend some draft capitol on that group...will sux. Hard to be a Porche with a Volkswagon engine under the hood. Hard to make all pro OLTs aout of third round draft choices. Spen some draft capitol on the o-line, then I'd say you have a legit beef.


Uh huh. Thanks for reminding me of the contrast in arm strength between Dave and others. When Losman was pressured and throwing flatfooted he hit his guy in stride. Carr just throws it up there. No touch at all except every once in a while he gets lucky. David Carr will play his 8 or 9 years here and never accomplish a damn thing. He can't make enough plays. He's always looking short. Don't tell me it was an accident and pre-season that this other guy Rosenfelds puts the ball on the guy's shoulder or in his hands as he turns on the 40 yard passes. Carr pisses me off because he's so @#$%#$#% careful not to throw a pass into a tight window. Loser. Sick of him Wish we had someone else to lead this team but now we are also stuck with Kubes and he wants a guy to scramble, ugh.

Why can we have a guy like this Dan Henne guy who steps up in the pocket and tattoos x's on his receivers chests?

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 10:59 AM
You name the play when we had a shoot at the end zone, last one I can think of is when Carr hit Andre wide open in Jax and the great Hawaiian could not run one more yard to score.

A limited playbook is a result of limited players. Very sad. Even when the running game is there we can not take advantage of stretching the field. That is the most disappointing thing for me. The offense is averaging about 15 points per game, which is right on track with last year's debacle.

real
11-20-2006, 10:59 AM
And if you are saying that Faggins getting burned twice in the 1st quarter for 80+ yard TD's in the 1st quarter and Cook fumbling and costing us at least 3 points is not as bad as any mistake Carr would/could/did make, then I don't know what to tell you.

In regards to winning and losing, you can say so and so made a more crucial mistake....

But for the purposes of discussion on the message board, why would we heavily discuss what Cook did, or Didn't do....or what Dexter Wynn did...

Those guys may not even be here next year....

I am not making this point in regards to why we won/why we lost...That is for the coaches to do when they watch film....

I am referring to your comments about how Carr is put under a microscope by fans....And honestly within the orginization they probably feel the same way, and have similar discussions....look at it from Bob McNair's view...He's dishing out major bucks for a QB that isn't playing up to where we want him to play....He's paying mediocre dollars to Faggins....If you are looking at it from a worth perspective...Faggins has been worth what he's being paid...David hasn't.....

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 11:02 AM
Then we should be expecting more from a guy who makes more than $7.75 mil a year, like not letting DB's rip balls out of his hands.

Complement AJ with a QB who can run a NFL playbook for about 3-4 million dollars and that is a net gain of 3-4 million which can be spent on more O line or the secondary. I agree that the Carr/AJ combo is way over priced.

real
11-20-2006, 11:02 AM
Like what, run more, throw it deep, throw over the middle, stand in the pockett and deliver, run a draw that gets called back for holding, throw a pass to cook and he fumbles, trust Andre to come down with the ball, put the 3 and 2 pass the only place he could have and for some strange reason expect his pro bowl reciever to catch it and not fall on the ground.

We loss...

He made mistakes...

He missed on some plays that could have put us in better position to win....

He didn't do enough....

Im not saying only he didn't do enough...The whole team didn't do enough...But Carr will be singled out, and deservingly so....

real
11-20-2006, 11:08 AM
Why are you contradicting yourself?

You say it was a team loss, then you blame Carr for the loss more than anyone else.

Why? Just because he gets paid more? C'mon.

I never contradicted myself....

I'll break it down one more time...

It's a team loss...The team didn't play well enough to win....

Carr's play is magnified, because he is not living up to expectation...

Meaning....I don't expect Faggins to lock down every reciever....I don't expect Faggins to be a top tier CB....I don't expect Jameel cook to never fumble...I don't expect our O-line and RB's to get 200 yards rushing...I don't expect A.J to make every spectacular catch...

Now I'm not saying that carr is supposed to make every play, but he hasn't stepped up and performed at the level at which he is expected...

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 11:44 AM
All I am saying is people complain about what Carr makes and what he does/doesn't do but the fact is AJ makes more than Carr does yet he seems to get a free pass for whatever reason, maybe the ball should not have been thrown, but AJ had the ball in his hands, and the DB snatched it right out of his hands. If he is going to get paid like a top 10 WR, he should play like one.

They both had the ball in their hands. AJ is catching over his shoulder and the DB is facing the ball .... 9 times out of 10 the DB wins that.

AJ has made some spectacular plays this year. Carr has not. Without AJ Carr's numbers would be hiddeous and his coveted rating would be the same as Marcus Coleman's blood-alcohol level. AJ = best player on the team.

texan279
11-20-2006, 11:56 AM
They both had the ball in their hands. AJ is catching over his shoulder and the DB is facing the ball .... 9 times out of 10 the DB wins that.

AJ has made some spectacular plays this year. Carr has not. Without AJ Carr's numbers would be hiddeous and his coveted rating would be the same as Marcus Coleman's blood-alcohol level. AJ = best player on the team.

AJ had the ball in his hands first. And Carr is the one throwing those balls to AJ, yet he gets no credit? And Carr has made some plays this season, through the air and with his feet, like the 1st down scramble that was called back yesterday. I mean you can call me a Carr homer or whatever you want, I just do not understand why Carr gets the blame for everything wrong with this team.

TxAg
11-20-2006, 12:02 PM
Don't be a Carr Hater the reason we lost was the whole teams fault we should have made the first down on our last drive but it was not in all Carr's fault, our offense just could not do the job and in the end our defense could not hold. That to me is everyone to blame not just Carr.:wild:

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 12:05 PM
AJ had the ball in his hands first. And Carr is the one throwing those balls to AJ, yet he gets no credit? And Carr has made some plays this season, through the air and with his feet, like the 1st down scramble that was called back yesterday.

Unreal. Let's give Carr some credit when AJ bails him out by winning a jump ball and then blast AJ when he loses one and forget who threw the crappy pass to begin with. Fantastic.

real
11-20-2006, 12:08 PM
Don't be a Carr Hater the reason we lost was the whole teams fault we should have made the first down on our last drive but it was not in all Carr's fault, our offense just could not do the job and in the end our defense could not hold. That to me is everyone to blame not just Carr.:wild:

That'd be cool if all players were equal....

bad
11-20-2006, 12:14 PM
Carr is a wussy and overrated on this board by some posters...
Wow.

I'll be the first to admit that Carr has many faults as a QB and they've all been dissected ad nauseum here, but I think this is the first time I've seen anyone question his stones.

That's just reaching. Carr is one tough S.O.B. - it's maybe his best quality.

Remember the game where he came back from that shoulder injury?

Remember him running over that DB last week?

Remember him getting sacked and getting up time after time after time after time...

I guess you don't.

It's valid to question his football I.Q., his leadership skills, hell his arm even - but wussy?


Nah.

Texanfan4ever
11-20-2006, 12:25 PM
I was close to posting, but I'm not going to expend the energy to have the same argument that has been going on here for years. Silly.....:lightning:

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 12:26 PM
Let David suit up as a DB.... Cause then you could blame him for consecutive 83 yard bombs and giving up a game winning drive. All versus a very bad and injured offense in the Bills.

mganz
11-20-2006, 12:26 PM
Im not a Carr basher...I'm not a Carr supporter....

I want to win...A mistake by Jameel Cook is not the same as a mistake by David Carr....

Let me get this straight. Your not a Carr supporter or basher.
You just want to win. How can a mistake by Cook, that cost us points not just as bad or worse than any mistake Carr made yesterday. You people kill me. Is this not a team game. How about Dre's mistakes. I keep hearing how fast he is but haven't seen him get behind the defenders once this year. Is that Carrs fault as well. i have suffured through the Oilers and will continue to suffer through the Texans in the hope that next week we can do better. I am a Carr supporter and the loss against Tenn I will put soley on him. This is an absolute team loss. Now, how about Cook not protecting the ball. That was a big gain and should have ended with points. How is that Carrs fault, because it was a short pass to begin with. PLEASE!!!

kingh99
11-20-2006, 12:29 PM
Let me get this straight. Your not a Carr supporter or basher.
You just want to win. How can a mistake by Cook, that cost us points not just as bad or worse than any mistake Carr made yesterday. You people kill me. Is this not a team game. How about Dre's mistakes. I keep hearing how fast he is but haven't seen him get behind the defenders once this year. Is that Carrs fault as well. i have suffured through the Oilers and will continue to suffer through the Texans in the hope that next week we can do better. I am a Carr supporter and the loss against Tenn I will put soley on him. This is an absolute team loss. Now, how about Cook not protecting the ball. That was a big gain and should have ended with points. How is that Carrs fault, because it was a short pass to begin with. PLEASE!!!

You throw enough dink crap and someone will knock the ball out eventually. That was the game plan against the Oilers back in the day. The opposing defenses would let the Oiler do their worst (best) between the 20's but always had an answer in the red zone or with us backed up and needing a punt for good field position. Eventually the drive breaks down when you take 20 plays to move it downfield.

mganz
11-20-2006, 12:35 PM
Cook fumbled because he can't protect the ball. He as both arms underneath the ball. By the way I noticed that you didn't post anything after the game last week. If you want V Young, go to Tenn. If Carr has a good do you come in here and talk about it. I doubt it. Once the ball is caught, 4 yards past the LOS it's out of the QB's hands.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 12:35 PM
You throw enough dink crap and someone will knock the ball out eventually. That was the game plan against the Oilers back in the day. The opposing defenses would let the Oiler do their worst (best) between the 20's but always had an answer in the red zone or with us backed up and needing a punt for good field position. Eventually the drive breaks down when you take 20 plays to move it downfield.

2 lost fumbles - in key situations on only 21 touches for the season, is not acceptable - irrespective of the offense....

real
11-20-2006, 12:37 PM
Let me get this straight. Your not a Carr supporter or basher.
You just want to win. How can a mistake by Cook, that cost us points not just as bad or worse than any mistake Carr made yesterday. You people kill me. Is this not a team game. How about Dre's mistakes. I keep hearing how fast he is but haven't seen him get behind the defenders once this year. Is that Carrs fault as well. i have suffured through the Oilers and will continue to suffer through the Texans in the hope that next week we can do better. I am a Carr supporter and the loss against Tenn I will put soley on him. This is an absolute team loss. Now, how about Cook not protecting the ball. That was a big gain and should have ended with points. How is that Carrs fault, because it was a short pass to begin with. PLEASE!!!

Well if you're arguing my logic, you argue the logic of Kubiak and pretty much everybody that knows anything about football....

Kubiak has publicly stated, "the team goes how the QB goes".....

Cook is a mediocre player....As a fan you shouldn't expect Cook, or Faggins to be the stars of the team and make crunch time plays....Now I'm not exscusing their mistakes...they shouldn't have been made...

BUT...

You should be able to expect your QB, the first overall pick, to be able to hit a slant....

We should expect David Carr to be able to perform in the clutch....He hasn't...

real
11-20-2006, 12:38 PM
2 lost fumbles - in key situations on only 21 touches for the season, is not acceptable - irrespective of the offense....


You're right it's not acceptable...But go start a thread about it and watch how fast it falls to page 2 and then into oblivion never to be seen again....

Carr is more important to this team than Cook....

dtran04
11-20-2006, 12:41 PM
People are gonna bash no matter what. Nobody is gonna change each other's mind.

mganz
11-20-2006, 12:42 PM
Well if you're arguing my logic, you argue the logic of Kubiak and pretty much everybody that knows anything about football....

Kubiak has publicly stated, "the team goes how the QB goes".....

Cook is a mediocre player....As a fan you shouldn't expect Cook, or Faggins to be the stars of the team and make crunch time plays....Now I'm not exscusing their mistakes...they shouldn't have been made...

BUT...

You should be able to expect your QB, the first overall pick, to be able to hit a slant....

We should expect David Carr to be able to perform in the clutch....He hasn't...

But really how can you put it on one guy. I see your point and I know that he hasn't really produced when it counts. But, how can you produce when the recievers/backs fumble. That is were my confusion is. The slant pass was a bit high but AJ should have caught it. He just released from his man too late.

Double Barrel
11-20-2006, 12:45 PM
Carr is the kind of QB that will require a solid defense to protect close leads. Unfortunately, we are far from having that kind of defense.

I don't see him as a QB that can take a game on his shoulders to win it. But I think he can be good enough not to lose games for us, too. Is he worth the money paid to him? Probably not under these conditions and what we get in return. But this is why he takes so much heat. We can't get other players when we have so much invested in so few.

But yesterday was a team meltdown and a team loss. I can't blame one player for it.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 12:45 PM
But really how can you put it on one guy. I see your point and I know that he hasn't really produced when it counts. But, how can you produce when the recievers/backs fumble. That is were my confusion is. The slant pass was a bit high but AJ should have caught it. He just released from his man too late.

If you are Carson Palmer and Andre Johnson you don't find yourself checking off to the lousy FB because you can make the throw.

mganz
11-20-2006, 12:49 PM
I'm just sick of everyone blaming him for a team loss. You can't compare any 2 QB's unless they are in the same system with the same type personell. To do that is just weak.

real
11-20-2006, 12:49 PM
But really how can you put it on one guy. I see your point and I know that he hasn't really produced when it counts. But, how can you produce when the recievers/backs fumble. That is were my confusion is. The slant pass was a bit high but AJ should have caught it. He just released from his man too late.

I never put anything on one guy....

A lot of players probably made mistakes....And those players who's mistakes aren't worth their contract either get cut or sent to the bench....

Meaning...I'm not worried about cook, or Faggins.....If they don't improve I know they will be gone in a heartbeat and no one would blink....

We are talking about our QB, the most important person on offense if not the whole team....His lack of production when we need it is a problem...

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 12:52 PM
I'm just sick of everyone blaming him for a team loss. You can't compare any 2 QB's unless they are in the same system with the same type personell. To do that is just weak.

Very few that I read blame him for the loss, I certainly do not. What there is a lot of strewn across this board is what we get out of his contract. He is an overpaid QB. I would have zero problem with his perfromance if we paid him 3-4 million dollars.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 12:54 PM
You're right it's not acceptable...But go start a thread about it and watch how fast it falls to page 2 and then into oblivion never to be seen again....

Carr is more important to this team than Cook....


I could give rats ***** about Cook. Point was he is paid as a professional and has fumbled twice in critical situations, and yet the haters fail to see that as one in many reasons for this team to lose... NOT just the QB position.... The Defense was horrible yesterday... Period. Where are all the people that were just high fiving each other last week? I understand they are improving and I love Ryans, and I'm cool with Williams, but the defense stunk it up.

That is not the QB's fault whether it is DC, Joe Montana, Sammy Baugh or Dave Ragone.... None of them could have done ANYTHING about the position the Texans were put in yesterday because of the D and because of a critical fumble inside the freakin' 10 yard line.

The Texans were down 17-7 and came back to take the lead at 21-17.... Hey D - How about stop somebody.... It's JP Losman for crying out loud....

real
11-20-2006, 12:54 PM
Very few that I read blame him for the loss, I certainly do not. What there is a lot of strewn across this board is what we get out of his contract. He is an overpaid QB. I would have zero problem with his perfromance if we paid him 3-4 million dollars.

Add me to that list.

If Carr were a third rd. pick whom I had little expectations of, I don't think the discussion is this heated....

But I'll flip it around....

If Carr were a third rd. pick would you guys still be defending him ?

or would you be ready to draft a QB in the first rd. next year ??????

mganz
11-20-2006, 12:56 PM
Again how can you produce when your receivers/backs fumble or have the ball stripped away. How do you continue to trust those guys. The funny think is, Houston is about the only ones bashing Carr. Everyone sees alot of improvment from the previous years.

I want to win as much as anyone else, but I know that this is a process. I want to win now, but without a win I'll take improvement and competitiveness. We won 2 games last year and we will win at least 2-3 more this year. When the TEAM improves everyone looks good. I will watch the games and continue to root for David/Andre/Cook or whoever else is out there.

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 12:58 PM
The Texans were down 17-7 and came back to take the lead at 21-17.... Hey D - How about stop somebody.... It's JP Losman for crying out loud....

And they scored the only TD of the second half for the Texans. The offense needs to pick it up as the D has been keeping this team in games this year.

mganz
11-20-2006, 12:59 PM
I could give rats ***** about Cook. Point was he is paid as a professional and has fumbled twice in critical situations, and yet the haters fail to see that as one in many reasons for this team to lose... NOT just the QB position.... The Defense was horrible yesterday... Period. Where are all the people that were just high fiving each other last week? I understand they are improving and I love Ryans, and I'm cool with Williams, but the defense stunk it up.

That is not the QB's fault whether it is DC, Joe Montana, Sammy Baugh or Dave Ragone.... None of them could have done ANYTHING about the position the Texans were put in yesterday because of the D and because of a critical fumble inside the freakin' 10 yard line.

The Texans were down 17-7 and came back to take the lead at 21-17.... Hey D - How about stop somebody.... It's JP Losman for crying out loud....


Totally agree

kingh99
11-20-2006, 12:59 PM
Add me to that list.

If Carr were a third rd. pick whom I had little expectations of, I don't think the discussion is this heated....

But I'll flip it around....

If Carr were a third rd. pick would you guys still be defending him ?

or would you be ready to draft a QB in the first rd. next year ??????

read my tagline for my answer. I will repeat what I just wrote in the Kubiak's fault thread. You gotta step outside yourself and make a play every once in a while. The thing we will never get from David Carr is a quote such as: "Coach called to pass to Andre for the 1st down but I saw he was covered tight and faked like I was going to run up the middle, stopped and threw to Owen coming across the middle. It was beautful. Meanwhile Coach chimes in, yes that was a good fast read by David and he didn't bail. He thought on his feet not with his feet."

kcwilson
11-20-2006, 01:00 PM
Again how can you produce when your receivers/backs fumble or have the ball stripped away. How do you continue to trust those guys. The funny think is, Houston is about the only ones bashing Carr. Everyone sees alot of improvment from the previous years.

I want to win as much as anyone else, but I know that this is a process. I want to win now, but without a win I'll take improvement and competitiveness. We won 2 games last year and we will win at least 2-3 more this year. When the TEAM improves everyone looks good. I will watch the games and continue to root for David/Andre/Cook or whoever else is out there.

Exactly. I think a lot of people see the improvement around the country. The problem is that they expect us to lose, so we get glossed over. Football is still a team game and the team needs to make imporvements.

We must rely on coaching to get us to that point. To date, I think the coaching has made great progress in bringing the talent along. The talent needs to be more disciplined and that is an area to focus on the next six games.

You can replay the whole game and point out things that we could have done different, but the fact is that we didn't. Love em or leave em, I think that we are on the right path.

real
11-20-2006, 01:02 PM
I could give rats ***** about Cook. Point was he is paid as a professional and has fumbled twice in critical situations, and yet the haters fail to see that as one in many reasons for this team to lose... NOT just the QB position.... The Defense was horrible yesterday... Period. Where are all the people that were just high fiving each other last week? I understand they are improving and I love Ryans, and I'm cool with Williams, but the defense stunk it up.

That is not the QB's fault whether it is DC, Joe Montana, Sammy Baugh or Dave Ragone.... None of them could have done ANYTHING about the position the Texans were put in yesterday because of the D and because of a critical fumble inside the freakin' 10 yard line.

The Texans were down 17-7 and came back to take the lead at 21-17.... Hey D - How about stop somebody.... It's JP Losman for crying out loud....


Just because it's talked about more after a loss than it is after a win doesn't make it any less of a problem....

I haven't seen one post saying that the Cook fumble didn't hurt us...I haven't seen one post that says it's o.k to make mistakes....

What I have seen is a lot of blind love and loyalty for a guy that has yet to string together good performances and make it become the norm instead of a rare occurrence....

This is the last time I'll say this....Yes the cook fumble hurt us....BUT cook is not an intricate part of the grand design...David Carr is...Cook may not be here next year....So why would we sit around and discuss those fumbles other than to say how much he sucks....We are all in agreeance that Cook does not need the ball in crunch time.....

What some have a hard time seeing is that Our FUTURE rest with Carr....Meaning his play and development is more important than freakin Jameel Cook....

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 01:02 PM
Again how can you produce when your receivers/backs fumble or have the ball stripped away. How do you continue to trust those guys. The funny think is, Houston is about the only ones bashing Carr. Everyone sees alot of improvment from the previous years.

Because we are the few, the brave, to watch this disaster.

Just watch video of Carr the last five years. Tell me something he is doing differently or improved upon and how it has had a successful impact on the team's performance. Don't bother, because it ain't there. People who do not improve via behavior, extra skill sets and/or results in the business world do not scale (promotions, raises, extensions). This game is not tied to him, his behavior (play on the field) and his results are who he is and not what we pay for.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 01:03 PM
Add me to that list.

If Carr were a third rd. pick whom I had little expectations of, I don't think the discussion is this heated....

But I'll flip it around....

If Carr were a third rd. pick would you guys still be defending him ?

or would you be ready to draft a QB in the first rd. next year ??????

I'm am not defending Carr, because he's Carr. I am defending the QB position on this team that has NEVER, been given a chance to succeed until this year with the acquisition of Moulds, drafting of Owen Daniels, credible coach and improving line play (although still a long way to go here).

The haters will come back and say, "But now he has those tools and better coaching, etc."... Thats true, but its been 10 games in a new system (the 4th system in 5 years) that dictates a lot of underneath routes and ball control from shorter routes with potentially have receivers break for long ganers (see Bill Walsh - and the W/C offense)....

No one, first, second, third or fourth rounder would have succeeded...

real
11-20-2006, 01:07 PM
No one, first, second, third or fourth rounder would have succeeded...

You failed to answer my question....

If Carr had been a third rd. pick, would you be ready to grab a QB in the draft this year ?

My guess is that you would....

You would look at his performance, and say to yourself that we need more out of that position....meaning that if you honestly judged Carr from a performance standpoint your patience wouldn't be as long...

But since Carr was picked in the first, you all think he will eventually reach his "potential"....

whatever that is...

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 01:07 PM
I could give rats ***** about Cook. Point was he is paid as a professional and has fumbled twice in critical situations, and yet the haters fail to see that as one in many reasons for this team to lose... NOT just the QB position.... The Defense was horrible yesterday... Period. Where are all the people that were just high fiving each other last week? I understand they are improving and I love Ryans, and I'm cool with Williams, but the defense stunk it up.

That is not the QB's fault whether it is DC, Joe Montana, Sammy Baugh or Dave Ragone.... None of them could have done ANYTHING about the position the Texans were put in yesterday because of the D and because of a critical fumble inside the freakin' 10 yard line.

The Texans were down 17-7 and came back to take the lead at 21-17.... Hey D - How about stop somebody.... It's JP Losman for crying out loud....

Did you watch the game? The defense scored the go-ahead TD and the offense responded by punting out the remainder of the game. JP Losman threw more TD's for us than Carr did. Anytime your offense performs that poorly the QB position will - and should - get criticized.

nunusguy
11-20-2006, 01:08 PM
Carr is too convenient a scapegoat for those fans who already have a predisposed attitude towards him, and as a result they will bash him for
bad trafffic on the drive to Reliant on Sunday if we lose the game.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 01:09 PM
2 lost fumbles - in key situations on only 21 touches for the season, is not acceptable - irrespective of the offense....

Should have never had to throw that dink crap. Carr's arm is mush. He can throw tied up as a pretzel like nobody's business. That part we aren't questioning. The part we question is his ability to look like an NFL QB. Excuse me for wanting a drop back passer. Do you watch the games? Carr is a garbage man. He throws garbage completions. Elway rolling out and throwing 40 yards downfield does not equal Carr rolling out and throwing 8 yards in the flat. Elway play = excitement. Carr play = garbage that a lot of guys could do.

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 01:10 PM
Carr is too convenient a scapegoat for those fans who already have a predisposed attitude towards him, and as a result they will bash him for
bad trafffic on the drive to Reliant on Sunday if we lose the game.

Actually he is good for traffic because everyone leaves early. The fact that there were still people in the seats, in my opinion, is because we actually have faith in the defense to make a play.

dtran04
11-20-2006, 01:11 PM
I just can't place blame the QB when an opposing receiver gets almost 300 yards. That would be #1 on my list. Hell even Chad Pennington is lickin his chops right now.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 01:11 PM
Did you watch the game? The defense scored the go-ahead TD and the offense responded by punting out the remainder of the game. JP Losman threw more TD's for us than Carr did. Anytime your offense performs that poorly the QB position will - and should - get criticized.

You think David is looking at his completion record this morning and doing that little head sway he does?

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 01:11 PM
Actually he is good for traffic because everyone leaves early.

Zing!

real
11-20-2006, 01:11 PM
Carr is too convenient a scapegoat for those fans who already have a predisposed attitude towards him, and as a result they will bash him for
bad trafffic on the drive to Reliant on Sunday if we lose the game.

I don't know why it has to be taken to that extreme...

How come "carr bashers" just can't expect more from a guy who should be producing more? This last game aside....

Forget about the Wins and Losses......

real
11-20-2006, 01:13 PM
I just can't place blame the QB when an opposing receiver gets almost 300 yards. That would be #1 on my list. Hell even Chad Pennington is lickin his chops right now.

Forget about the game....

Can you blame Carr for his OWN lack luster performance ?

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 01:15 PM
You failed to answer my question....

If Carr had been a third rd. pick, would you be ready to grab a QB in the draft this year ?

My guess is that you would....

You would look at his performance, and say to yourself that we need more out of that position....meaning that if you honestly judged Carr from a performance standpoint your patience wouldn't be as long...

But since Carr was picked in the first, you all think he will eventually reach his "potential"....

whatever that is...


I thought I did answer your question, but maybe the posts got outta sync:

. I am defending the QB position on this team that has NEVER, been given a chance to succeed until this year with the acquisition of Moulds, drafting of Owen Daniels, credible coach and improving line play (although still a long way to go here).

.. Thats true, but its been 10 games in a new system (the 4th system in 5 years) t

In other words.. NO I would not draft another QB if Carr were a third round pick.... Since I have a coach known for developing QB's I would keep him, look at his "OVERALL" performance (which Kubiak should consider a rookie campaign) and further develop him...

real
11-20-2006, 01:16 PM
In other words.. NO I would not draft another QB if Carr were a third round pick.... Since I have a coach known for developing QB's I would keep him, look at his "OVERALL" performance (which Kubiak should consider a rookie campaign) and further develop him...

I have a really hard time believing that...

nunusguy
11-20-2006, 01:18 PM
The fact that there were still people in the seats, in my opinion, is because we actually have faith in the defense to make a play.
Your faith in our defense in yesterdays game was obviously misplaced because like Carr and AJ, none of them made a play at the end of the game.

real
11-20-2006, 01:21 PM
The reason I have a hard time believing that is because as a third rd. pick, most would think that Carr had reached his ceiling...

But because he was a first rd. pick, we assume he's got some untapped potential....

We stuck with Carr not because he was doing good....We stuck with him because we expected him to get better....

Why? ............Potential.......

If he were a third rounder would you "expect" much more ? no....

That's why you'd be looking for a new QB....

real
11-20-2006, 01:23 PM
Your faith in our defense in yesterdays game was obviously misplaced because like Carr and AJ, none of them made a play at the end of the game.

Why is this a defense vs offense.....Carr vs. A.J discussion ???

The thread is about Carr, and Carr "bashing".....

Carr gets bashed and rightfully so...

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 01:24 PM
Carr is too convenient a scapegoat for those fans who already have a predisposed attitude towards him, and as a result they will bash him for
bad trafffic on the drive to Reliant on Sunday if we lose the game.

Bingo!! We have a winner.

I have stated this approximately 2000 times, but here goes again. I am NOT "a blind love for Carr" person. I had absolutely no problems with his benching... Actually think he needed that a few years ago, but Capers didn't have the sack to do it.

The only people that have blinders on - are the Carr haters. You hate, without prejudice everything that is Carr..

I truly do look at the QB position and wonder if its all Carrs fault.... The more I look and try to evaluate, it is NOT the play of the QB position alone... I would evaluate the same whether it was David, Sage, or Brett Favre.

Do y'all honestly think if anyone other than Carr was the quarterback yesterday, we would have won that game?

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 01:27 PM
Your faith in our defense in yesterdays game was obviously misplaced because like Carr and AJ, none of them made a play at the end of the game.

They kept us in the game with rookies, journeyman and a lack of sheer talent. No one has made excuses for them because they give us effort and have showed improvement all over the place. As far as AJ and Carr are concerned, in my opinion, we are limiting AJ with Carr behind center.

real
11-20-2006, 01:28 PM
Im not a Carr hater Bill...I could probably go back and find many post in which I've defended the guy....

But to blindly act as if Carr doesn't have his faults is mind boggling...

If you keep blaming someone else for Carr's mediocre to poor performances the blame will go on forever...Where does the buck stop ?

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 01:30 PM
Carr is the kind of QB that will require a solid defense to protect close leads. Unfortunately, we are far from having that kind of defense.

I don't see him as a QB that can take a game on his shoulders to win it. But I think he can be good enough not to lose games for us, too. Is he worth the money paid to him? Probably not under these conditions and what we get in return. But this is why he takes so much heat. We can't get other players when we have so much invested in so few.

But yesterday was a team meltdown and a team loss. I can't blame one player for it.


Excellent post. I think it really sums up the entire situation right now.

As for Carr getting a lot of the heat, this is an accumulation over the entire season and the last 4 1/2 years, not just one game.

Let's keep this in mind, the West Coast Offense takes that 3-2 pass play as a running play. Kubiak called a play that used his two best players on offense and gave them an easy opportunity to win the game. Just like that gutsy 4 down call the week before, he gave the offense, and in particular, his two best players, a chance to prove they can deliver.

Considering what the defense was showing, that play should have been an easy completion. It looked like to me that Carr and Johnson were not on the same page. Probably the blame should be spread between both of them on that play. It just looks like they don't work together enough to make that type of play automatic, which should be automatic for how much money they make between them, which is DB's point above.

However, I think Carr needs Johnson a lot more than Johnson needs Carr. I think AJ could put up similar numbers if not better without Carr. Carr, on the other hand, I am not so sure.

Kubiak gave Carr and Johnson an easy opportunity to show that their tandem is important part of the team, and they failed! Having said that, other players and coaches failed as well.

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 01:35 PM
Your faith in our defense in yesterdays game was obviously misplaced because like Carr and AJ, none of them made a play at the end of the game.

The defense scored our only TD in the 2nd half.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 01:36 PM
They also couldn't stop anybody when it really counted...

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 01:37 PM
Do y'all honestly think if anyone other than Carr was the quarterback yesterday, we would have won that game?

Yeah, I think a lot of other QB's could have won that game or completed that 3-2 pass in the 4th quarter to seal the game.

The offense only scored two TDs and no points in the second half despite Carr throwing 22 straight completions and a very nice running game. For one reason or another, this offense can't score quality points, which is the point of the game.

You believe it is more systematic of the team than Carr, but a lot people don't see it that way. And just because they do see Carr as the main problem, doesn't make them a "Carr hater". That is just an overused term to label someone without really discussing the problem.

It is an honest question to ask if Carr is really apart of the solution considering all the opportunities he has had. I don't care about the answer, but it is a reasonable question nonetheless.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 01:40 PM
Why is this a defense vs offense.....Carr vs. A.J discussion ???

The thread is about Carr, and Carr "bashing".....

Carr gets bashed and rightfully so...

True, but ALL 3 units should get bashed....

real
11-20-2006, 01:40 PM
They also couldn't stop anybody when it really counted...

You bumped a thread just to be spiteful...

edit: You might want to go bump it again...It's falling fast brutha...

real
11-20-2006, 01:41 PM
True, but ALL 3 units should get bashed....

And they do.....

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 01:46 PM
You bumped a thread just to be spiteful...

edit: You might want to go bump it again...It's falling fast brutha...

LOL, I knew you would catch that...

nunusguy
11-20-2006, 01:52 PM
They kept us in the game with rookies, journeyman and a lack of sheer talent. No one has made excuses for them because they give us effort and have showed improvement all over the place. As far as AJ and Carr are concerned, in my opinion, we are limiting AJ with Carr behind center.
OK, if were going to get into a lack of talent contest of defense vs offense, we have more cap invested in the D than the O. We have the #1 & #33 current draft picks in the D along with the most highly compensated current year FA.
We have 3 rookie starters on the O, but only one first day guy. And if you want to say AJ would do better with Roethlisberger, well I think Carr would do better with Hines Ward, who rarely drops balls while AJ is Mr. Butterfingers all too often.
You want journeyman - Salaam is playing the most important position on the
whole offense, after QB, and he's a guy who bounced around the league a
lot more than most.

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 02:04 PM
OK, if were going to get into a lack of talent contest of defense vs offense, we have more cap invested in the D than the O. We have the #1 & #33 current draft picks in the D along with the most highly compensated current year FA.
We have 3 rookie starters on the O, but only one first day guy. And if you want to say AJ would do better with Roethlisberger, well I think Carr would do better with Hines Ward, who rarely drops balls while AJ is Mr. Butterfingers all too often.
You want journeyman - Salaam is playing the most important position on the
whole offense, after QB, and he's a guy who bounced around the league a
lot more than most.

Did you even to bother research before you typed that drivel? We have more invested in AJ, Carr and Pitts then our whole starting defense as it was yesterday. Only one rookie who is a starter that was drafted on the first day? What does that matter, they start in the NFL or they don't.

Roethlisberger and Ward comparisions work nicely in la la land, but let's discuss Carr's performance over the last five years. What has he improved upon and how has it had a positive effect on the offense?

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2006, 02:37 PM
Here is a question ... would you trade Carr a former #1 pick head up for undrafted free agent Tony Romo ?

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 02:39 PM
Here is a question ... would you trade Carr a former #1 pick head up for undrafted free agent Tony Romo ?

Yep, he has something Carr does not have, a feel for the NFL game and a small price tag.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 02:39 PM
Uhhhhhh, no...

nunusguy
11-20-2006, 02:43 PM
Carr's performance over the last five years.
I would say that Carr's performance showed progression over the first 3
years, though it looked somewhat dubious towards the end of the 3rd year -
its hard for me to shake the memories of the 2004 finale against the Browns.
Last year was a definte regression of Carr's NFL career, while this year has been a turnaround of last year, with the exception of a very miserable performance in Nashville. I know I was very disappointed and disgusted in Carr's performance in the Titans game, and was thoughrouly bashing him as were most after that game, all which Carr roundly deserved.
Hopefully the Titans game was an aberation in what I would call new found progress under Kubiak, but I don't think we can make that judgement befor year end. In the meantime I'm certainly not ready to say that Kubiak's presence is making for a renaissance in David Carr's NFL career, but I'm hopful.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2006, 02:47 PM
Yep, he has something Carr does not have, a feel for the NFL game and a small price tag.

Romo is cocky enough for TO and smart enough for Parcells . That would seal the deal for me .

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 02:48 PM
I would say that Carr's performance showed progression over the first 3
years, though it looked somewhat dubious towards the end of the 3rd year -
its hard for me to shake the memories of the 2004 finale against the Browns.
Last year was a definte regression of Carr's NFL career, while this year has been a turnaround of last year, with the exception of a very miserable performance in Nashville. I know I was very disappointed and disgusted in Carr's performance in the Titans game, and was thoughrouly bashing him as were most after that game, all which Carr roundly deserved.
Hopefully the Titans game was an aberation in what I would call new found progress under Kubiak, but I don't think we can make that judgement befor year end. In the meantime I'm certainly not ready to say that Kubiak's presence is making for a renaissance in David Carr's NFL career, but I'm hopful.

I am in agreement with your take and was hoping that this was the game where the passing offense made some progress as we had seen from the defense. What we saw was the playbook opening up for the run which helped immensely. It would have been nice to leverage that in the passing game.

ThaShark316
11-20-2006, 02:53 PM
This message board will seriously take a hit once the Texans starting winning...dead serious.

Porky
11-20-2006, 03:05 PM
Carr is clearly playing better than at anytime in his career. Kubes has made a difference imo. What disheartens me is that is still not nearly good enough. Looking at the big picture, Carr seems to be at his best when it matters least, and is at his worst when it matters the most. His football intelligence is below avg for the position, his pocket presence and feel for the rush are still below avg, he seems to have trouble spotting open guys in the deeper routes, settling often for the underneath trash, his sidearm delivery is disconcerting, etc. All imo of course.

I guess we will wait another few years to see if he will develop. That seems to be the direction the team is taking. By then, Eric Moulds will be in the old folks home, and AJ will be playing dominos on the front porch, but what the heck. He was a 1st pick. We like his potential, so let's keep playing him and see what we have right?:yawn:

Oh and yes, I would take Romo at his price over Carr at his price any day of the week. He did something in one start that Carr hasn't managed to do in his entire career - beat the Colts. And his line is bad too, so don't even go there.

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 03:08 PM
This message board will seriously take a hit once the Texans starting winning...dead serious.

I have been hearing this for several years. Many, many losses later I am still hearing it. Seriously, I'm dead serious.

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2006, 03:09 PM
Carr is the Texans version of Steve Francis except he does'nt bring the outside distractions .

run-david-run
11-20-2006, 03:12 PM
That was an excellent pass by Carr and AJ basically had the ball, but the Bills
DB took it away from him.

The pass was in front of AJ into coverage. He streched for it, both he and Clemenes, who is the same size as AJ, came down with it. AJ hit the ground first, Clemens fell on top of him. It makes senes that Clemens would have the ball when they got up because he was on top, so both the impact with the ground and Clemenes arm's were forcing the ball out of AJ's grasp. It was a mixture of an overthrown ball (becuase of the protection, Carr was leveled on the throw) and some bad luck.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 03:15 PM
I still love AJ, but truth be told, an elite receiver makes that catch, he didn't...

With that said, AJ is young and will learn to make that play...I can't wait.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 03:24 PM
Carr is the Texans version of Steve Francis except he does'nt bring the outside distractions .

Good analogy. Legend in his own mind.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 03:27 PM
I still love AJ, but truth be told, an elite receiver makes that catch, he didn't...

With that said, AJ is young and will learn to make that play...I can't wait.

AJ is young? Please don't talk up players in the NFL as being young. It's a young man's league. How old were TJ Houshmandzadeh and Chad Johnson when they started making plays every week? You make your bread the first 5 years if you are lucky enough to last that long. Carr is an old man by NFL standards. When did Brady get drafted? DelHomme? Rivers? Manning? on and on and on and on.

JDizzle
11-20-2006, 03:27 PM
At least Francis went to the Super Bowl.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 03:43 PM
At least Francis went to the Super Bowl.

Now that's pretty funny!!

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 04:06 PM
AJ is young? Please don't talk up players in the NFL as being young. It's a young man's league. How old were TJ Houshmandzadeh and Chad Johnson when they started making plays every week? You make your bread the first 5 years if you are lucky enough to last that long. Carr is an old man by NFL standards. When did Brady get drafted? DelHomme? Rivers? Manning? on and on and on and on.

First, AJ is only in his 4th year so he still has time to "make his bread" and second, how old was Jerry Rice (his last two years not withstanding) when he retired? Steve Largent was productive his entire career, Keenan McCardell, etc. and so many more. My point here is AJ will "get it" and he won't allow balls to be wrestled away from him. I personally can not wait for that, because he will be something special to watch. I am not trying to make excuses or sugar coat anything. He did not make the play - he should have. And he will.....

Sorry dude, but I disagree about Carr being old by QB standards. Quarterbacks are more likely to succeed in their early 30's. Link to a graph, (albeit from 2001, you can still see the trend). http://www.econ.washington.edu/user/startz/482_F2002/482_F02_papers/Hadreas.pdf

The only one of the 'younger' QB's that has a play-off and SB success is Brady (obviously DelHomme from the same SB)... The list of SB winning QB's looks a little like this:
Montana, Young, Elway, Pluntkett, etc. - but guys a lot older than Carr.

Obviously there are always exceptions to the rule, and as you mention Peyton and Brady are that, but then again, they are both exceptional in a lot of ways.

DeclanJr
11-20-2006, 04:09 PM
Carr threw 22 completions in a row? I was at the game and extremely underwhelmed with his feat of high QB ranking daring do.

He doesn't make plays. Not that he wouldn't if he could, but he can't. Ok he can but not to the level needed to be a leader and a winner in the NFL. He threw 22 dinks and dunks in a row and I looked to my kid and said this reminded me of that #@$^%@#$@$%Y$ run and shoot without the rocket armed Warren Moon.

Here's the bad news.

Gary Kubiak is a good coach but I find that unless it's John Elway under the snap, this controlled roll/running QB style is awful. I want a team that keeps the QB in the pocket throwing darts and bombs downfield. I want the 92-95 Cowboys. I want the Patriots. I want a team that doesn't have as it's centerpiece an undersized, weak armed QB running for his life. Wake me when the Dave Krieg era is over in Houston. Actually that was an insult to Dave. Krieg.

Great Post!

mganz
11-20-2006, 05:15 PM
Because we are the few, the brave, to watch this disaster.

Just watch video of Carr the last five years. Tell me something he is doing differently or improved upon and how it has had a successful impact on the team's performance. Don't bother, because it ain't there. People who do not improve via behavior, extra skill sets and/or results in the business world do not scale (promotions, raises, extensions). This game is not tied to him, his behavior (play on the field) and his results are who he is and not what we pay for.

1. over the last few games his feet have settled down a bit
2. he will stand in the pocket and trust his blocking
3. he has started to step up in the pocket instead of trying to run around his protection.

Carr has improved alot this season and I expect him to continue to improve.
If he doesn't improve significantly then we should let him go. Up to this point in the season i'm happy with his and the teams overall progress

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 07:08 PM
1. over the last few games his feet have settled down a bit
2. he will stand in the pocket and trust his blocking
3. he has started to step up in the pocket instead of trying to run around his protection.

Carr has improved alot this season and I expect him to continue to improve.
If he doesn't improve significantly then we should let him go. Up to this point in the season i'm happy with his and the teams overall progress

I agree to a degree on all three, but there is no upside for the Texans, due to this improvement. This was my feeling and fear when we extended him as the team has invested a lot of money in and around Carr. Total Cost of Ownership goes up, but Return on Investment is flat lining and is a real fiscal issue for McNair.

Koolbrz
11-20-2006, 07:27 PM
1. AJ being out fought for the ball on the int.
2. the fumble by Jameel,
3. the two loooong TDs given up by our db's
4. the lack of pressure on Losman
5. the great gain of field possession our punter gained for us



Don't you mean that Carr was out fought for the ball, Carr fumbled the ball, Carr was burned twice for 83 yd. bombs, He didn't put any pressure on Losman, and He ( Carr ) could not make the big play on defense with 9 sec. to go in the game. Yup, it was all Carr's fault that we lost yesterday. You Carr bashers are a freakin joke!!

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 07:40 PM
1. AJ being out fought for the ball on the int.
2. the fumble by Jameel,
3. the two loooong TDs given up by our db's
4. the lack of pressure on Losman
5. the great gain of field possession our punter gained for us



Don't you mean that Carr was out fought for the ball, Carr fumbled the ball, Carr was burned twice for 83 yd. bombs, He didn't put any pressure on Losman, and He ( Carr ) could not make the big play on defense with 9 sec. to go in the game. Yup, it was all Carr's fault that we lost yesterday. You Carr bashers are a freakin joke!!

Let's see, Carr and AJ hook up for an easy 2 yard bread and butter completion that is essential to the West Coast Offense to seal the game and the team overcomes for a victory! That is the point of a highly compensated #1 draft pick.

Instead, we are still with all this finger pointing like a bunch of little kids.

I don't think anyone is stating Carr is the worst QB in the league. I think the issue is that he doesn't bring enough to the table for the team to win games, particuraly win when mistakes are made or things go poorly, regardless of who made them or for whatever reason.

He is a highly paid QB and drafted #1 and that throw should have been done in his sleep. End of story. The other issues you brought up (except for some of the AJ stuff) was beyond his control, you are correct there. But, considering what he is paid and the offense he is supposed to run, that play should have been completed considering how long he has worked with Kubiak. They probably have been working on that play since day one.

See the big picture instead of this "Carr Bashing Mantra". Carr and AJ screwed up and missed a golden opportunity to save a victory despite poor play by a lot of players throughout the game.

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 07:40 PM
1. AJ being out fought for the ball on the int.
2. the fumble by Jameel,
3. the two loooong TDs given up by our db's
4. the lack of pressure on Losman
5. the great gain of field possession our punter gained for us



Don't you mean that Carr was out fought for the ball, Carr fumbled the ball, Carr was burned twice for 83 yd. bombs, He didn't put any pressure on Losman, and He ( Carr ) could not make the big play on defense with 9 sec. to go in the game. Yup, it was all Carr's fault that we lost yesterday. You Carr bashers are a freakin joke!!

Hardly, the joke is people actually clicking their heels together and saying, "there is no QB like Carr. There is no QB like Carr." This is the silliest arguement, because pro Carr people have nothing to promote other than hope. The data and the behavior is there for all to view and it points to failure as he does not make this team better. Carr is not the answer for the Texans and the Texans may not be the answer for Carr. Let's move on and get this thing going.

GP
11-20-2006, 07:53 PM
When Faggins and Cook basically single handedly cost us the game yesterday? I've seen about 20 threads bashing Carr, 1 about Cook, and 0 about Faggins. The one INT Carr threw was AJ's fault not Carr's, AJ had the ball taken out of his hands, again. I've read that Carr is not a leader blah blah blah because he couldn't bring us back, yet we were down 14-0 in the 1st quarter but we came back and took the lead and then our defense lets Buffalo march down the field and score a game winning TD in the last minute and a half. Faggins gets burned not once, but twice in the 1st quarter for 2 80+ yard TD's yet people come here to bash Carr. :confused:

Yeah, and it's as if he didn't even tie the NFL record for consecutive completions, too. Where's the congratulations for THAT?

Face it: People just flat out HATE him. Why else would you not at least be able to say "Good job, David, on tying a record"?

Certain people here do NOT want to ever cheer for the guy. Even when they say "I don't hate him" it's all baloney. They do hate him. They want him gone. They want him ran out on a rail like Homer Stokes. They just HATE him.

We have a TEAM MEMBER who tied an NFL RECORD and yet he's not worthy enough to get even a "Good job" for it around here.

David Carr is not the singular source of woes for this team.

He's got plenty of help by an entire cast of guys who are not doing anything when their chance at the ball comes their way. Peyton Manning is said to command that kind of respect: When Dallas Clark gets a chance at a ball, he has to do something special with it or he knows Peyton might go to other options if he doesn't focus and use his chance wisely.

What we have here, IMO, is a guy in Cook who doesn't understand this philosophy. He is careless with the ball. Period.

I thought he picked up some great blocks. But maybe he can do JUST that. I'd be happy with that/ But I'm telling you the truth when I say that I gasp and clutch my chest when I see him make a reception...because I know that a player is going for the ball. The word is out: Hit Cook and he coughs up the ball. Even Cook, IMO, knows this. He's beaten already.

But alas, David Carr should have helped Cook to hold onto that ball. Dang you David! DANG YOU I SAY!!!!

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 07:57 PM
Yeah, and it's as if he didn't even tie the NFL record for consecutive completions, too. Where's the congratulations for THAT?

Face it: People just flat out HATE him. Why else would you not at least be able to say "Good job, David, on tying a record"?

Certain people here do NOT want to ever cheer for the guy. Even when they say "I don't hate him" it's all baloney. They do hate him. They want him gone. They want him ran out on a rail like Homer Stokes. They just HATE him.

We have a TEAM MEMBER who tied an NFL RECORD and yet he's not worthy enough to get even a "Good job" for it around here.

David Carr is not the singular source of woes for this team.

He's got plenty of help by an entire cast of guys who are not doing anything when their chance at the ball comes their way. Peyton Manning is said to command that kind of respect: When Dallas Clark gets a chance at a ball, he has to do something special with it or he knows Peyton might go to other options if he doesn't focus and use his chance wisely.

What we have here, IMO, is a guy in Cook who doesn't understand this philosophy. He is careless with the ball. Period.

I thought he picked up some great blocks. But maybe he can do JUST that. I'd be happy with that/ But I'm telling you the truth when I say that I gasp and clutch my chest when I see him make a reception...because I know that a player is going for the ball. The word is out: Hit Cook and he coughs up the ball. Even Cook, IMO, knows this. He's beaten already.

But alas, David Carr should have helped Cook to hold onto that ball. Dang you David! DANG YOU I SAY!!!!

The Redskins benched Mark Brunell. Maybe our franchise will make the mature move as well and not discount 4.5 expensive years of average QB'ing. You really have no basis to stand up for this guy other than love. The Texans and the future of the franchise continue to be at risk with this guy siphoning off much needed cap space to help in other areas.

cuppacoffee
11-20-2006, 07:59 PM
Are you still living in the capless 70's? If your superstar level salaried players aren't producing superstar quality play your team will struggle....there isn't an unlimited cap so you have to settle for lesser players at other positions since your money is tied up. The key to winning is for your big ticket players to play like big ticket players. When that doesn't happen...you get the Texans.

OK

Who wanted to play here but we couldn't afford to sign them?

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 08:05 PM
Yeah, and it's as if he didn't even tie the NFL record for consecutive completions, too. Where's the congratulations for THAT?

Face it: People just flat out HATE him. Why else would you not at least be able to say "Good job, David, on tying a record"?

Certain people here do NOT want to ever cheer for the guy. Even when they say "I don't hate him" it's all baloney. They do hate him. They want him gone. They want him ran out on a rail like Homer Stokes. They just HATE him.

We have a TEAM MEMBER who tied an NFL RECORD and yet he's not worthy enough to get even a "Good job" for it around here.

David Carr is not the singular source of woes for this team.

He's got plenty of help by an entire cast of guys who are not doing anything when their chance at the ball comes their way. Peyton Manning is said to command that kind of respect: When Dallas Clark gets a chance at a ball, he has to do something special with it or he knows Peyton might go to other options if he doesn't focus and use his chance wisely.

What we have here, IMO, is a guy in Cook who doesn't understand this philosophy. He is careless with the ball. Period.

I thought he picked up some great blocks. But maybe he can do JUST that. I'd be happy with that/ But I'm telling you the truth when I say that I gasp and clutch my chest when I see him make a reception...because I know that a player is going for the ball. The word is out: Hit Cook and he coughs up the ball. Even Cook, IMO, knows this. He's beaten already.

But alas, David Carr should have helped Cook to hold onto that ball. Dang you David! DANG YOU I SAY!!!!

I am not trying to make a joke here, but if completing 22 consecutive passes was such a great accomplishment and really so important, why couldn't he make one for 2 yards on a simple play to his favorite receiver with the game on the line? They probably have been running since day one when Kubiak arrived.

GP
11-20-2006, 08:10 PM
The Redskins benched Mark Brunell. Maybe our franchise will make the mature move as well and not discount 4.5 expensive years of average QB'ing. You really have no basis to stand up for this guy other than love. The Texans and the future of the franchise continue to be at risk with this guy siphoning off much needed cap space to help in other areas.

I believe we're under the cap. We're not at the top, but we're doing fairly well.

Kubiak is not spending the cap money. Isn't that correct?

Hasn't this team ALWAYS been under the cap? I believe it has. I believe McNair is primarily responsible for making sure we stay under the cap. And we even had a guy (Payne, IIRC) who settled for less money and we're STILL under the cap.

Saying that Carr takes up all our cap is not realisitic IMO. Show me where this team is in the red and has zero cap room. I just don't see it from what I remember about things I've read.

Here's a post from way back in Feb 2006 where a member posts a lot of data on our cap: http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16789

Looking at that, and then vs. other teams' cap numbers....I'd say we're not suffering from David's salary.

But maybe I'm wrong. It happened one time back in 1987.

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 08:18 PM
I believe we're under the cap. We're not at the top, but we're doing fairly well.

Kubiak is not spending the cap money. Isn't that correct?

Hasn't this team ALWAYS been under the cap? I believe it has. I believe McNair is primarily responsible for making sure we stay under the cap. And we even had a guy (Payne, IIRC) who settled for less money and we're STILL under the cap.

Saying that Carr takes up all our cap is not realisitic IMO. Show me where this team is in the red and has zero cap room. I just don't see it from what I remember about things I've read.

Here's a post from way back in Feb 2006 where a member posts a lot of data on our cap: http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16789

Looking at that, and then vs. other teams' cap numbers....I'd say we're not suffering from David's salary.

But maybe I'm wrong. It happened one time back in 1987.

Managing the cap means not maxing it out ever. If you do, you get the Tennessee Titans a couple of years ago. Look at the Patriots and how they manage the cap.

It is what you spend per position that is relevant. Carr is a very well compensated QB, and therefore should be providing similar play as his well compensated counterparts.

Kaiser Toro
11-20-2006, 08:32 PM
I believe we're under the cap. We're not at the top, but we're doing fairly well.

Kubiak is not spending the cap money. Isn't that correct?

Hasn't this team ALWAYS been under the cap? I believe it has. I believe McNair is primarily responsible for making sure we stay under the cap. And we even had a guy (Payne, IIRC) who settled for less money and we're STILL under the cap.

Saying that Carr takes up all our cap is not realisitic IMO. Show me where this team is in the red and has zero cap room. I just don't see it from what I remember about things I've read.

Here's a post from way back in Feb 2006 where a member posts a lot of data on our cap: http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=16789

Looking at that, and then vs. other teams' cap numbers....I'd say we're not suffering from David's salary.

But maybe I'm wrong. It happened one time back in 1987.


The best thing about Mario and Demeco is that they are the future of the franchise. However, whether I like it or not, the perception is that this is still DC's team. Whether that is the thinking of free agents and their respective agents is unknown, but it does have an impact on free agency on who the team is being built around. Once we make the change at QB you will start to see some names in FA that are serious about coming to Houston in my opinion. We are beyond hope when it comes to Carr, we need proof that his performance makes this team better. Being liked and contributing to wins are two different measures - the former being Homecoming King and the latter being an NFL QB. And Homecoming Kings should not be commanding 7.2 million.

I obviously have science on my side.

GP
11-20-2006, 08:33 PM
Managing the cap means not maxing it out ever. If you do, you get the Tennessee Titans a couple of years ago. Look at the Patriots and how they manage the cap.

It is what you spend per position that is relevant. Carr is a very well compensated QB, and therefore should be providing similar play as his well compensated counterparts.

David Carr, again, is not the singular source of our woes.

Brady has had tons of better players placed around him.

And even HE stinks it up a few times. They didn't look so hot early in the season.

To say that David is not earning his money is a lie.

He'd get snatched up within 30 seconds of being cut loose from our team.

He is not the singular source of our woes.

We've got lots of blame togo around. We've got four years of residual side effects going on. I am angry at Kubiak, and yet also feel sorry for him at the same time with what he has had to sort through around here.

Must've been like picking corn out of you-know-what.

David's not holding us back.

IMO, we've got personnel management who are playing it way too safe with our cap savings.

Every year when I see how much we've got under the cap...and I don't see us go after a premiere guy out on the market...I rock back in my chair and pull some hair out.

Capers and Co. were overpaying sub-par talent like Todd Wade and force-feeding us that those guys were high-end guys. Yeah, right.

It still amazes me that 6 out of 7 head coach candidates say Carr is the man...that Kubiak says Carr can do it...that he just set a record for consecutive completions...that his mistakes are waaaaaayyyyy down....that he's managing the field and taking it onto his shoulders to get big first downs in the clutch (on his own, barreling over a defender)...that he's hitting people on hitches, clants, crossing patterns, deep passes to AJ, clutch conversions to Walter, etc....and yet he's overpaid.

I think he's overpaid, too. Overpaid for being on a team where punters punt 30 yards, kickers miss chip-shots, FBs catch-and-fumble balls in inoportune times, get balls taken away from them TWICE this year, etc., etc.

There's a team effort here. David is not the singular source of our woes.

But he's the QB. He's got good looks. He makes a good whipping post, I guess.

Still bothers me that nobody else is getting chewed out on the sidelines or told that "If you do x,y,or z one more time, you're getting benched."

I think Kubiak probably respects David more than he does anybody else on the team. He might not say it, but I think he does. I think he knows that the guy was almost ruined by four years of complete ineptitude and neglect.

(sigh)

Ol' Stinky David Carr. We'd be in the playoffs if Sage were leading us....

Double Barrel
11-20-2006, 08:42 PM
He is a highly paid QB and drafted #1 and that throw should have been done in his sleep. End of story.

Exactly. And AJ is a first round pick, too. That play should have been automatic if this team ever plans on going anywhere with both of these guys as our 'superstars'.

The fact of the matter is that these two players did not lose the game (that was a team meltdown), but they sure as heck did not seal the deal and win it, either (which that play would have done). And that is the difference between 'superstar' players and guys that make a lot of money because of their potential. Right now we hoped to have the former, but it's turning out to be the latter at this point. We can only hope that Kubiak can coach them to the next level.

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 08:43 PM
It still amazes me that 6 out of 7 head coach candidates say Carr is the man...that Kubiak says Carr can do it

If you want a job, you say want the interviewer wants to hear. It is clearly documented how bad Kubiak wanted the position!

Not to mention, Kubiak is suppossed to be a QB wizard and refute Dan Reeves consulting that Carr is not the problem.

I don't think so.

I am speculating here, but McNair didn't hire Dan Reeves to get his opinion really as much as ammunition to get he wanted in the candidate process in looking for Capers successor.

That is just my experience with high powered guys that have made their money running a business. They find ways of getting what they want in business and very successful at doing that. Unforunately, building an NFL championship team doesn't work the same because the pie is severly limited because there is a very limited talent pool to select from.

You are right, Carr is not the single reason for the Texans woes. But, it isn't clear he is really apart of the solution to a winning program either.

Wolf
11-20-2006, 08:55 PM
I am not sure, I mean it wasn't like Kubiak was on the street corner begging for food, He was with the Bronco's and a super bowl caliber team. Why would he bank his future on Carr when they could have cut ties and draft either Leinart,Cutler(hello broncos), or Vince Young?

Honoring Earl 34
11-20-2006, 08:58 PM
It still amazes me that 6 out of 7 head coach candidates say Carr is the man...that Kubiak says Carr can do it...that he just set a record

If you heard Kubiak on the radio , he told Carr he expects him to make the throw that wins the game along with the 22 in a row .

Runner
11-20-2006, 09:03 PM
I know this is way, way out there, but...

Suppose Kubiak said Carr was the QB of the future for the franchise, but he was mistaken!

What is more unbelievable, Carr isn't the man, or Kubiak made a mistake? Both things couldn't have both happened at the same time, could they? What are the odds??!!!

edo783
11-20-2006, 09:59 PM
Carr is a very well compensated QB, and therefore should be providing similar play as his well compensated counterparts.

While Carr makes good coin, he is at about the middle range salary wise for starting QBs on their second contract. He is also not the highest salary guy on the team.

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 11:19 PM
While Carr makes good coin, he is at about the middle range salary wise for starting QBs on their second contract. He is also not the highest salary guy on the team.

I believe Carr is paid about $8 million a year, which I believe is within the average of the top 5 or so of QBs. So, I think he is paid a little more than middle range.

Carr is at least the 3rd highest paid player on the team. Mario Williams and AJ may be paid more, but that is it.

Wolf
11-20-2006, 11:19 PM
so is throwing for 510 yards and still losing :woot:

thunderkyss
11-20-2006, 11:29 PM
David Carr, again, is not the singular source of our woes.


Nobody is saying he is the only source of our problems...... just the biggest. As David Carr goes, so the team goes.


Brady has had tons of better players placed around him.

bull... caca.....

nobody would remember any of those offensive players had Bledsoe remained the starter in New England.

Since we're talking about ole Bledsoe, his new team also seems to be doing better without him.

That was the only change on both teams..... the QB, because he makes that much of a difference.

How much do you want to bet that the Seahawks will return to their winning ways once Hasselback suits up??

How much do you want to bet the Falcons would be on top of that division if they had Drew Brees??


Ol' Stinky David Carr. We'd be in the playoffs if Sage were leading us....

Well I wouldn't go that far...... there is still a lot of football to be played..

GP
11-20-2006, 11:50 PM
As the guys on ESPN 790 said it best.......

QB rating is so overated. Carr proved that it is overated. Romo has a low QB rating and he has better talent than Carr.

No, he has a team of players that were drafted well by a management personnel that has had about four years head start on us.

And that's THAT.

That Dallas team is a team of well-drafted pros.

We were stuck with capers and Casserly who were playing games with one another for four years. Capers wanted guys that didn't fit his scheme, and Casserly tried to sneak in guys that might do well IN SPITE OF CAPERS' lack of an eye for good talent.

I mean, can you not see the difference in just ONE draft class with Kubiak and his staff vs. the old regime?

If they keep this up, we're going to be looking pretty good in a couple years.

Napa Auto Parts
11-21-2006, 03:26 AM
i just don't understand why and undrafted QB Like tony romo who has never had a regular season snap until this year looks much better than carr that is unreal *undrafted* im just tired of the carr excuses which the homers will always have one its not all david's fault but he could do so much more with what he has for @#$%^&$%^^&&$$^$%#$$@sake the line is protecting we have a running now we have AJ and Eric moulds Owen daniels he has the weapons what the hell is wrong no touchdowns in the second half not even close to sniffing the endzone.


i guess the answer to why the carr bashing people are tired of mediocre play from david i dont see why they should be used to i mean we have seen it for a number of years.:twocents:

texan279
11-21-2006, 09:05 AM
i just don't understand why and undrafted QB Like tony romo who has never had a regular season snap until this year looks much better than carr that is unreal *undrafted* im just tired of the carr excuses which the homers will always have one its not all david's fault but he could do so much more with what he has for @#$%^&$%^^&&$$^$%#$$@sake the line is protecting we have a running now we have AJ and Eric moulds Owen daniels he has the weapons what the hell is wrong no touchdowns in the second half not even close to sniffing the endzone.


i guess the answer to why the carr bashing people are tired of mediocre play from david i dont see why they should be used to i mean we have seen it for a number of years.:twocents:

I'll tell you why, Marc Colombo, Marco Rivera, Flozell Adams, Terrell Owens, Terry Glenn, Julius Jones, Jason Witten, and Patrick Crayton.

thunderkyss
11-21-2006, 09:59 AM
I'll tell you why, Marc Colombo, Marco Rivera, Flozell Adams, Terrell Owens, Terry Glenn, Julius Jones, Jason Witten, and Patrick Crayton.

Marc Colombo, Marco Rivera, Flozell Adams........ go to the Cowboys-Forum.com. All those guys are pretty much hated. They are the reason every team in the league(including us) were ringing Bledsoe's bell all game long. They suck.... with Bledsoe under center.... now with Romo, they're going to look like ProBowlers.

TerrellOwens (AndreJohnson), Terry Glenn (Eric Moulds)... it's a wash. I understand both Glenn is a more potent deep threat than Moulds is, but Romo hasn't been able to hit T.G. on any deep patterns as of yet..... as a matter of fact, I often wonder if Romo is aware that T.G. is on the field.

Jason Witten (Owen Daniels)... I think it's a wash, I wouldn't trade Owen for Witten straight up, you'd have to sweeten the pot a bit. But we've also got Bruener, who hasn't dropped one pass this season, and he's a better blocker than Witten/fasano.

Patrick Crayton (??).... it would be nice if we had a Patrick Crayton..

Julius Jones(the guy looks kinda injury prone to me. He's aweful small. But there is no doubt about it, we'd have been a lot better off if we had a better run game. that doesn't mean undefeated, but we'd have won at least 4 games I can think of if we were able to consistently run the ball, especially in the 4th Qtr.

JDizzle
11-21-2006, 10:14 AM
I'll tell you why, Marc Colombo, Marco Rivera, Flozell Adams, Terrell Owens, Terry Glenn, Julius Jones, Jason Witten, and Patrick Crayton.

You guys never cease to amaze me. This was the only unit getting flamed more than ours and Miami's prior to Romo taking over. Romo comes in, sacks go down. Same thing with Miami, Harrington comes in, sacks go WAY down and apparently their lines aren't as bad anymore.

Kaiser Toro
11-21-2006, 10:18 AM
You guys never cease to amaze me. This was the only unit getting flamed more than ours and Miami's prior to Romo taking over. Romo comes in, sacks go down. Same thing with Miami, Harrington comes in, sacks go WAY down and apparently their lines aren't as bad anymore.

Data points and best practices are everywhere internally and externally, but apparently the top of the Texans food chain is making the decisions.

texan279
11-21-2006, 10:33 AM
You guys never cease to amaze me. This was the only unit getting flamed more than ours and Miami's prior to Romo taking over. Romo comes in, sacks go down. Same thing with Miami, Harrington comes in, sacks go WAY down and apparently their lines aren't as bad anymore.

Their lines were never that bad, they had Bledsoe (a statue), and Culpepper who was still nursing his knee under center. They both put mobile QB's in and the sacks go down. But hey, if you would take Salaam, Weary, and Winston over Adams, Colombo, and Rivera be my guest.

GP
11-21-2006, 10:43 AM
I see that but Carr is damaged goods. What if he has the talent surrounding him and become another vinny testaverde? What excuse will Carr lovers have? A QB is to win games period.

Vinny has had 29 years.

Carr, for all practical purposes, is about 9 games into a REAL opportunity to show what he has. I think he's done a better job than last year.

Isn't that worth something?

Didn't we all agree, with the exception of Bobo, that the Capers regime could have taken an All-Madden team and ruined them?

We're a few games into the new system, Carr has done more than ever.

The Ws and Ls still the same, but overall a new coach and new players are already making us watch and keeping us glued to the TV until the end.

What did YOU do when we played Seattle and KC last year?

I turned it off. It was painful.

Now,there's a more tolerable pain: Losing close games in the end.

Everyone wants instant wins. It doesn't happen.

But there IS progress. To say there's NOT is a lie. And I'll take progress over what we had in the past. Won't you?

texan279
11-21-2006, 10:44 AM
Vinny has had 29 years.

Carr, for all practical purposes, is about 9 games into a REAL opportunity to show what he has. I think he's done a better job than last year.

Isn't that worth something?

Didn't we all agree, with the exception of Bobo, that the Capers regime could have taken an All-Madden team and ruined them?

We're a few games into the new system, Carr has done more than ever.

The Ws and Ls still the same, but overall a new coach and new players are already making us watch and keeping us glued to the TV until the end.

What did YOU do when we played Seattle and KC last year?

I turned it off. It was painful.

Now,there's a more tolerable pain: Losing close games in the end.

Everyone wants instant wins. It doesn't happen.

But there IS progress. To say there's NOT is a lie. And I'll take progress over what we had in the past. Won't you?


Great post, I gotta spread rep around before giving it to you again.

Napa Auto Parts
11-21-2006, 02:44 PM
I'll tell you why, Marc Colombo, Marco Rivera, Flozell Adams, Terrell Owens, Terry Glenn, Julius Jones, Jason Witten, and Patrick Crayton.



Ask Drew bledsoe:lightbulb: he had that same line and offensive players im asking why tony looks better and undrafted player no exucses

edo783
11-21-2006, 03:12 PM
I believe Carr is paid about $8 million a year, which I believe is within the average of the top 5 or so of QBs. So, I think he is paid a little more than middle range.

Carr is at least the 3rd highest paid player on the team. Mario Williams and AJ may be paid more, but that is it.

The 8 mill was his bonus paid this year, his salary is less and at about the mid range for starting QBs on their second contract.