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View Full Version : Has Carr Ever Thrown Over The Middle???


the wonger need food
11-20-2006, 09:24 AM
Has David Carr thrown a single pass down the middle of the field this season? Not counting dump offs to running backs. We made this big effort to go out and get quality tight end to go over the middle of the field to open things up on the outside and can't recall a single time that Carr has done this.

nunusguy
11-20-2006, 09:34 AM
If I'm not mistaken, TE Daniels is our leading receiver for TDs. He has become
deeply involved in our passing game, which was not the case before this year
except with some limited use of Billy whats-his-name during the first couple of years.
You'd be complaing that the Texans didn't throw to AJ on the 3 & 2 yesterday if Carr had thrown an incompletion to Daniels on the same play.

the wonger need food
11-20-2006, 11:46 AM
If I'm not mistaken, TE Daniels is our leading receiver for TDs. He has become
deeply involved in our passing game, which was not the case before this year
except with some limited use of Billy whats-his-name during the first couple of years.
You'd be complaing that the Texans didn't throw to AJ on the 3 & 2 yesterday if Carr had thrown an incompletion to Daniels on the same play.

So the question remains.... has Carr thrown a single pass down the middle of the field this season???

dalemurphy
11-20-2006, 11:54 AM
So the question remains.... has Carr thrown a single pass down the middle of the field this season???

Yes, but you won't see many deep square-ins and intermediate routes over the middle until our OLine improves. Those routes require 7-step drops and time to develop. We don't do much of that and won't until 2007, hopefully.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 11:56 AM
Has David Carr thrown a single pass down the middle of the field this season? Not counting dump offs to running backs. We made this big effort to go out and get quality tight end to go over the middle of the field to open things up on the outside and can't recall a single time that Carr has done this.

He doesn't have the arm strength to put the ball in a tight spot. He's got lousy downfield vision. Next.

the wonger need food
11-20-2006, 12:01 PM
Yes

Which game was it?

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 12:14 PM
Which game was it?

Yes he has but I don't remember which games.

When he does go deep over the middle, particularly between the hashes, he has problem getting over the linebacker. It seems to alway get tipped from that zone coverage.

Remember the Kansas City preseason game? It happened there and a couple of other times this season.

I have been saying the same thing about David throwing over the middle.

We had the running game yesterday, and the passing game still didn't look that good despite the 22 straight completions.

Bottom line, this offense has a real problem scoring points.

Double Barrel
11-20-2006, 12:18 PM
I think I recall a TD pass earlier this season to AJ where it was thrown down the middle (home game). :um: Even if true, it's not much to brag about.

coachdent
11-20-2006, 12:37 PM
Has David Carr thrown a single pass down the middle of the field this season? Not counting dump offs to running backs. We made this big effort to go out and get quality tight end to go over the middle of the field to open things up on the outside and can't recall a single time that Carr has done this.

Tight ends don't open up the middle. Wide Receivers open up the middle. When you have two wide receivers on the sidelines and two tight ends in the game, you don't go over the middle. It's nonsense.

We went over the middle and attacked themiddle of the field when we went five wide against NYGiants. Carr can't go over the middle if no one is there over the middle.

CarrIsFine
11-20-2006, 12:51 PM
He doesn't have the arm strength to put the ball in a tight spot. He's got lousy downfield vision. Next.


A quote popped in my head when I read this.............


"It is far better to keep your mouth closed and be thought ignorant than to open it and remove all doubt"

dalemurphy
11-20-2006, 01:08 PM
Which game was it?


Well, yesterday he hit Moulds on a seam route on a third and seven or so. On another third down he hit Moulds on an eight yard hook route. He also avoided pressure on another third down and hit Gado crossing the middle of the field late.

YoungTexanFan
11-20-2006, 01:16 PM
He doesn't have the arm strength to put the ball in a tight spot. He's got lousy downfield vision. Next.

...right...

His arm strengh is better than 90% of the QB's in the NFL and he can honestly make every throw asked of him. That is one of his biggest strengths and to ignore that or not even acknowledge it is ignorant.

His downfield vision is fine. He hits at least 2 bombs a week and looks downfield other times. Our O-line isn't good enough to let those plays develop with any consistency. When he has time, he hits his man. That's all you can ask out of your QB.

kingh99
11-20-2006, 01:50 PM
A quote popped in my head when I read this.............


"It is far better to keep your mouth closed and be thought ignorant than to open it and remove all doubt"

Yeah, your guy has brought the city so much joy.

/wretches

kingh99
11-20-2006, 01:53 PM
...right...

His arm strengh is better than 90% of the QB's in the NFL and he can honestly make every throw asked of him. That is one of his biggest strengths and to ignore that or not even acknowledge it is ignorant.

His downfield vision is fine. He hits at least 2 bombs a week and looks downfield other times. Our O-line isn't good enough to let those plays develop with any consistency. When he has time, he hits his man. That's all you can ask out of your QB.


His downfield vision stinks and his arm is vastly overrated. See how easy it is to be an expert on the internet.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 02:04 PM
Anyone remember the rocket ship that Jermaine Lewis dropped? 50+ yards on a rope.. Perhaps he just threw it too hard.

real
11-20-2006, 02:10 PM
Im not as concerned with Carr's arm strength as I am about his placement....

At times he'll make some awesome throws....then he'll come back and make a throw that makes you wonder....

He needs to be more consistent...

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 02:19 PM
I hear you there. Sometimes, I just have to scratch my head and wonder WTH he is thinking.

ccdude730
11-20-2006, 02:32 PM
wasnt it the game against washington where he hit AJ over the middle and sean taylor yanked him out of bounce? nice throw

i agree he does make some great throws sometimes with excellent placement (to moulds a couple times yesterday) and other times he just cant put it in the right spot (going for his 23rd straight completion to AJ - pass too far behind him)

real
11-20-2006, 02:48 PM
Carr's directional Split


Split....................COMP .........ATT........... YDS ............PCT ......TD
LEFT SIDE ...............46........... 67 ............448 .............68.7 .......3
MIDDLE ...................14 ...........24 .............81 .............58.3 ........0
RIGHT SIDE ..............38 ...........49 .............382 ............77.6 .......1

"Does Carr ever throw over the middle" ?

Barely....

NATHANHALE
11-20-2006, 04:40 PM
"He hits at least 2 bombs a week"

...guess it depends on what your definition of 'bomb' is--longest completion is 53 yds to AJ/Moulds has one for 29 yds/Daniels has one for 33...JMO, but I wouldn't call the latter 2 'bombs'. 83yds? Yeah, that's a bomb.

Where are the other 19?

austintexanite
11-20-2006, 04:44 PM
Carr's directional Split


Split....................COMP .........ATT........... YDS ............PCT ......TD
LEFT SIDE ...............46........... 67 ............448 .............68.7 .......3
MIDDLE ...................14 ...........24 .............81 .............58.3 ........0
RIGHT SIDE ..............38 ...........49 .............382 ............77.6 .......1

"Does Carr ever throw over the middle" ?

Barely....

Nice

real
11-20-2006, 04:45 PM
Carr averages 6.5 yds/ attempt for his career...

This year he's averaging 6.7....

poor...

real
11-20-2006, 04:53 PM
Im not sure how they Get those Stats (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/playerstats.asp?id=5887&Submit=Go), but I see they are missing 5 TD's...

So that means they probably have a different way of counting left, right, middle....

But you can get the General Idea... (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/playerstats.asp?id=5887&Submit=Go)

DeclanJr
11-20-2006, 05:11 PM
He doesn't have the arm strength to put the ball in a tight spot. He's got lousy downfield vision. Next.

Good points...let me add that his side-arm motion gets batted down at the line of scrimmage half the time. Carr is getting old real quick!

eriadoc
11-20-2006, 05:16 PM
For any of you who sit in the end zone seats at home games, start watching the patterns and make note of how many times the team sends receivers down the seams (almost never). I'm not getting into any commentary as to why that is, but you can't see it on TV. You can when you're in the seats.

SESupergenius
11-20-2006, 05:35 PM
What are the stats of other QB's to compare to. Let me see the top 15 QB's and where they throw so that we can see where Carr is at.

The stat means nothing if we can't compare it to anything.

real
11-20-2006, 05:40 PM
Peyton Manning
Split ..............COMP ..ATT ....YDS ....PCT.... TD
LEFT SIDE........ 41 .....63..... 519..... 65.1......5
MIDDLE .............33 ......46......425 ....71.7 ....2
RIGHT SIDE .......51 .......81 ......517 ....63.0 ....5

real
11-20-2006, 05:42 PM
Drew Brees

Split .............COMP .....ATT.. YDS ...PCT ....TD
LEFT SIDE ......43 .......58 .....475 ....74.1 .....4
MIDDLE ..........30 .......45 .....336 .....66.7 ....2
RIGHT SIDE .......55 .....77 ......710 ....71.4 ......4

real
11-20-2006, 05:44 PM
Phillip Rivers
Split .............COMP .....ATT.. YDS ...PCT ....TD
LEFT SIDE .......39 .......54 ......382 ...72.2 ......4
MIDDLE ...........19....... 29 ......299 ....65.5 .....0
RIGHT SIDE ......37 ........51 ......399 .....72.5 ...1

kingh99
11-20-2006, 05:46 PM
Good to see all the Carr haters singing their song. Well maybe a few have left the choir. Just one question, So you all feed-up with him.. Well think of it this way...LMAO .. You have a bunch of years too look foreward into loving him. He's been here for Years and will be here for many more Years. Enjoy, boys. :yahoo:

Since you love my posts I'll simply respond by saying I'll vote with my feet. I am sure McNair isn't proud of his half empty stadium. I let out a shout in the first quarter that was probably heard all the way around the stadium. Quiet as a church in there.

real
11-20-2006, 05:47 PM
Donavan McNabb
Split .............COMP .....ATT.. YDS ...PCT ....TD
LEFT SIDE .......37......... 62 .....515 ...59.7 .....2
MIDDLE ...........14 .........33 .....247 ....42.4.... .0
RIGHT SIDE .......54......... 75...... 809 ....72.0 ...4

Double Barrel
11-20-2006, 06:05 PM
For any of you who sit in the end zone seats at home games, start watching the patterns and make note of how many times the team sends receivers down the seams (almost never). I'm not getting into any commentary as to why that is, but you can't see it on TV. You can when you're in the seats.

I sit in the endzone (500s) just for this reason. You get a much better view of the entire game.

I think they don't call the long seams much because of protection issues. We're unable to put up a consistent pocket that allows long-term trust to develop, so Carr has been conditioned to never trust the pocket over the years. It's a pathetic fact that we're still talking about a lousy line after five years, but that's just the way it is.

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 06:18 PM
While watching a game on TV, the announcers went through a QB's passer rating by sectioning off the field similar to short, medium, and long, which was crossectioned with left, middle, and right.

I would like to see that breakdown for Carr. Actually, I would like to see that for all QBs.

Wolf
11-20-2006, 06:25 PM
Anyone remember the rocket ship that Jermaine Lewis dropped? 50+ yards on a rope.. Perhaps he just threw it too hard.


I agree with Vinny, his deep throws haven't looked the same as that throw right there. I don't know what happened to those type of throws over the year.

yes he hummed that thing about 55 yards.. it used to be on youtube and has been taken off.

Texan_Bill
11-20-2006, 06:27 PM
While watching a game on TV, the announcers went through a QB's passer rating by sectioning off the field similar to short, medium, and long, which was crossectioned with left, middle, and right.

I would like to see that breakdown for Carr. Actually, I would like to see that for all QBs.

My guess would be that he fell somewhere in the middle of the pack.

the wonger need food
11-20-2006, 06:45 PM
Carr's directional Split


Split....................COMP .........ATT........... YDS ............PCT ......TD
LEFT SIDE ...............46........... 67 ............448 .............68.7 .......3
MIDDLE ...................14 ...........24 .............81 .............58.3 ........0
RIGHT SIDE ..............38 ...........49 .............382 ............77.6 .......1

"Does Carr ever throw over the middle" ?

Barely....

I would guess that 23 of those attempts were under 10 yards.

the wonger need food
11-20-2006, 06:51 PM
Tight ends don't open up the middle. Wide Receivers open up the middle.


Obviously.


Our backup QB's haven't had a problem going down the middle of the field, but for some reason Carr can't do it. This offense isn't going to open up until he figures it out. Or until a different QB is running it.

hollywood_texan
11-20-2006, 07:00 PM
Tight ends don't open up the middle. Wide Receivers open up the middle. When you have two wide receivers on the sidelines and two tight ends in the game, you don't go over the middle. It's nonsense.


Tight ends don't open up the middle of the field?

Then what is the point of having Antonio Gates and Tony Gonzales?

I live in LA and I see a lot of the Charger games. Rivers throws between the hashes over the linebacker to Gates regularly. That really softens up the rest of the field.

Wolf
11-20-2006, 07:05 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5887/situational

pick away on what you want with his stats

eriadoc
11-20-2006, 11:01 PM
I sit in the endzone (500s) just for this reason. You get a much better view of the entire game.

I think they don't call the long seams much because of protection issues. We're unable to put up a consistent pocket that allows long-term trust to develop, so Carr has been conditioned to never trust the pocket over the years. It's a pathetic fact that we're still talking about a lousy line after five years, but that's just the way it is.

I'm glad I'm not the only one to recognize this. Gotta spread rep around.

real
11-21-2006, 09:09 AM
Peyton Manning
Split ..............COMP ..ATT ....YDS ....PCT.... TD
LEFT SIDE........ 41 .....63..... 519..... 65.1......5
MIDDLE .............33 ......46......425 ....71.7 ....2
RIGHT SIDE .......51 .......81 ......517 ....63.0 ....5

Drew Brees
Split .............COMP .....ATT.. YDS ...PCT ....TD
LEFT SIDE ......43 .......58 .....475 ....74.1 .....4
MIDDLE ..........30 .......45 .....336 .....66.7 ....2
RIGHT SIDE .......55 .....77 ......710 ....71.4 ......4

Phillip Rivers
Split .............COMP .....ATT.. YDS ...PCT ....TD
LEFT SIDE .......39 .......54 ......382 ...72.2 ......4
MIDDLE ...........19....... 29 ......299 ....65.5 .....0
RIGHT SIDE ......37 ........51 ......399 .....72.5 ...1

Donavan McNabb
Split .............COMP .....ATT.. YDS ...PCT ....TD
LEFT SIDE .......37......... 62 .....515 ...59.7 .....2
MIDDLE ...........14 .........33 .....247 ....42.4.... .0
RIGHT SIDE .......54......... 75...... 809 ....72.0 ...4

Carr
Split....................COMP .........ATT........... YDS ............PCT ......TD
LEFT SIDE ...............46........... 67 ............448 .............68.7 .......3
MIDDLE ...................14 ...........24 .............81 .............58.3 ........0
RIGHT SIDE ..............38 ...........49 .............382 ............77.6 .......1



"Does Carr ever throw over the middle" ?

Barely....


Im not sure how they Get those Stats (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/playerstats.asp?id=5887&Submit=Go), but I see they are missing 5 TD's...

So that means they probably have a different way of counting left, right, middle....

But you can get the General Idea... (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/playerstats.asp?id=5887&Submit=Go):lightbulb:

the wonger need food
11-21-2006, 09:25 AM
So I think we have a pretty definitive answer. Carr does not throw the ball down the middle of the field. He has 81 yards on 14 completions for an average of about 5 yards per play. So these are mostly dump offs to a RB.

If you look at good QB's/offenses you will see they are a lot more successful throwing the ball down the middle of the field. Phillip Rivers average about 15 yards per pass and Manning is right around 13 yards.


Until Carr learns how to soften up the safeties by completing passes over the middle this offense is going to struggle and not make very many big plays.

chuckm
11-21-2006, 09:53 AM
So I think we have a pretty definitive answer. Carr does not throw the ball down the middle of the field. He has 81 yards on 14 completions for an average of about 5 yards per play. So these are mostly dump offs to a RB.

If you look at good QB's/offenses you will see they are a lot more successful throwing the ball down the middle of the field. Phillip Rivers average about 15 yards per pass and Manning is right around 13 yards.


Until Carr learns how to soften up the safeties by completing passes over the middle this offense is going to struggle and not make very many big plays.


Sweet ..... and here I was thinking that nothing was ever accomplished on this MB .... :redtowel:

whiskeyrbl
11-21-2006, 10:05 AM
I sit in the endzone (500s) just for this reason. You get a much better view of the entire game.

I think they don't call the long seams much because of protection issues. We're unable to put up a consistent pocket that allows long-term trust to develop, so Carr has been conditioned to never trust the pocket over the years. It's a pathetic fact that we're still talking about a lousy line after five years, but that's just the way it is.

I agree, just as was the case on the INT Sunday,Carr could not follow thru as there was a Dlineman right in front of him.

GP
11-21-2006, 10:15 AM
Nope.

He's never ever thrown over the middle.

WHAT IS GOING ON AROUND HERE?

Do you guys actually filter what you're thinking before you post it?

You're a vet around here, Wonger. I'd expect better from you than that.

I've seen a pass over the middle in perhaps every game.

Do we have to go back and break down film and show you the dozens and dozens of times when he has thrown over the middle?

Goodness gracious.................:lightbulb:

real
11-21-2006, 10:20 AM
Do we have to go back and break down film and show you the dozens and dozens of times when he has thrown over the middle

I posted the stats....

Carr's over the middle passing game is weak/poor.....

Look at the stats man....

He hasn't thrown over the middle "dozens and dozens" of times....:lightbulb:

dtran04
11-21-2006, 10:20 AM
Even if it was proven that he regularly threw down the middle, people would make it irrelevant, claiming they were all dumpoffs. So in the end, it just ends up being another chance to bash Carr for whatever you feel like at the moment.

real
11-21-2006, 10:23 AM
Even if it was proven that he regularly threw down the middle, people would make it irrelevant, claiming they were all dumpoffs. So in the end, it just ends up being another chance to bash Carr for whatever you feel like at the moment.

He has thrown over the middle quanity wise about on par with everyone else....

But he only averages about 5.7 y/comp. over the middle....

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 10:27 AM
Hillarious.....

There are several earlier threads that vehemently state that stats mean nothing......... Now, all we discussing or comparing are stats....

I guess some people were born to talk out of both sides of their mouths!

GP
11-21-2006, 10:27 AM
I posted the stats....

Carr's over the middle passing game is weak/poor.....

Look at the stats man....

He hasn't thrown over the middle "dozens and dozens" of times....:lightbulb:

That wasn't Wonger's question, broseph.

It was, let me see if I can paraphrase this correctly, "Has Carr EVER thrown over the middle?"

His intent was to say that the guy is incapable of throwing over the middle. Well, I guess we see that he has INDEED thrown over the middle.

Now is it as good as other QBs? No. Is it in the middle of the pack? Appears to be.

For a team that's last (or near last) in other categories, being in the middle isn't so bad when you keep that in perpsective.

So let's keep it real, OK?

Like someone said, "It's just another chance to pick something to bash him about." It's as obvious as the nose on our faces.

the wonger need food
11-21-2006, 10:28 AM
He has thrown over the middle quanity wise about on par with everyone else....

But he only averages about 5.7 y/comp. over the middle....

5.7 yards per is well below par.

I think we're confusing throwing downfield over the middle and dump off passes in the middle of the field. There is a huge difference. Throwing down the middle of the field makes the safeties respect that portion of the field so they can't solely focus on receivers outside of the hash marks. That's why AJ is double-covered every play, because the safeties don't have to worry anything in the middle of the field. Dump off passes for 5 yards are generally the LB's responsibility.

GP
11-21-2006, 10:30 AM
Hillarious.....

There are several earlier threads that vehemently state that stats mean nothing......... Now, all we discussing or comparing are stats....

I guess some people were born to talk out of both sides of their mouths!

ding! ding! ding!

we have a winner.

it's all about stratgeically finding or NOT finding what you want to find or don't want to find as it's related to Carr.

stats are deceiving.

Carr is fourth among active QBs over a 4-year period for rushing yards. Does that stat impress you? It doesn't impress me because it means he's havingto shoulder the load himself and take off running due to breakdown in protection and the four seasons of inept playcalling that the whole TEAM had to endure.

Runner
11-21-2006, 10:31 AM
Hillarious.....

There are several earlier threads that vehemently state that stats mean nothing......... Now, all we discussing or comparing are stats....

I guess some people were born to talk out of both sides of their mouths!

Or maybe different people have different takes, so both sides of issues are stated somewhere.

real
11-21-2006, 10:32 AM
For a team that's last (or near last) in other categories, being in the middle isn't so bad when you keep that in perpsective.

So let's keep it real, OK?


You be real with yourself....

If you want to make yourself believe that Carr is an accomplished "over the middle" passer then go ahead....I really could care less....

All I was pointing out is that all those QB's I put up there average about 225 more yards over the middle than Carr with about the same amount of completions....

If you all can't put 2 and 2 together then so be it....

GP
11-21-2006, 10:33 AM
5.7 yards per is well below par.

I think we're confusing throwing downfield over the middle and dump off passes in the middle of the field. There is a huge difference. Throwing down the middle of the field makes the safeties respect that portion of the field so they can't solely focus on receivers outside of the hash marks. That's why AJ is double-covered every play, because the safeties don't have to worry anything in the middle of the field. Dump off passes for 5 yards are generally the LB's responsibility.

Read your title: Has he EVER thrown over the middle?

Now it's "Well, it's below average...."

So what. You answered your own question. :twocents:

I love the rabbit trails that occur around here.

the wonger need food
11-21-2006, 10:33 AM
That wasn't Wonger's question, broseph.

It was, let me see if I can paraphrase this correctly, "Has Carr EVER thrown over the middle?"

His intent was to say that the guy is incapable of throwing over the middle. Well, I guess we see that he has INDEED thrown over the middle.

Now is it as good as other QBs? No. Is it in the middle of the pack? Appears to be.

For a team that's last (or near last) in other categories, being in the middle isn't so bad when you keep that in perpsective.

So let's keep it real, OK?

Like someone said, "It's just another chance to pick something to bash him about." It's as obvious as the nose on our faces.

Carr has shown that he is incapable of throwing down the middle of the field. Again, throwing for 5-6 yards is not throwing down the middle of the field.

If you took every starting QB in the NFL and compared their YPC in that area of the field I'm guessing that Carr would be closer to the bottom than the middle.

This isn't bashing, it's just pointing out the deficiencies that need to be addressed and corrected if this team is going to have any success winning football games. Just because Carr is mentioned doesn't make it "bashing" or personal.

the wonger need food
11-21-2006, 10:35 AM
Read your title: Has he EVER thrown over the middle?

Now it's "Well, it's below average...."

So what. You answered your own question. :twocents:

I love the rabbit trails that occur around here.


Site one pass that Carr has completed down the middle of the field this season. Just one. To qualify it has to be in the air for more than 20 yards and between the hash marks.

real
11-21-2006, 10:36 AM
JP Losman
Split...............Att.......Comp......Yrd....... .....Pct.
MIDDLE...........7 ...........9 ..........82 .........77.8


Losman has completed 7 less throws than Carr over the middle, yet he has more yards....

simple math...

GP
11-21-2006, 10:36 AM
You be real with yourself....

If you want to make yourself believe that Carr is an accomplished "over the middle" passer then go ahead....I really could care less....

All I was pointing out is that all those QB's I put up there average about 225 more yards over the middle than Carr with about the same amount of completions....

If you all can't put 2 and 2 together then so be it....

I didn't say he's an "accomplished passer over the middle."

Amazing. You guys are now putting words into my mouth: Which is more proof that YOU guys are trying to see more than what's really there.

Let's take it a step further and see how Denver distributes the ball around the areas of the field.

real
11-21-2006, 10:37 AM
Hillarious.....

There are several earlier threads that vehemently state that stats mean nothing......... Now, all we discussing or comparing are stats....

I guess some people were born to talk out of both sides of their mouths!

O.K.....Well lets judge Carr off of his on the field success and triumphs and all the intangibles he brings to the game.......





You lose.....:lightning:

GP
11-21-2006, 10:38 AM
Site one pass that Carr has completed down the middle of the field this season. Just one. To qualify it has to be in the air for more than 20 yards and between the hash marks.

I've got better thingsto do with my time than sift through film to find thingsthat meet your criteria.

It was YOUR idea, you go do it.

Your question was, "Has he EVER thrown over the middle?"

Where was the Billy Miller TD pass against the Cowboys? It wasn't at the sidelines was it?

So there: There's ONE.

This is too dang easy. :yahoo:

the wonger need food
11-21-2006, 10:39 AM
I've got better thingsto do with my time than sift through film to find thingsthat meet your criteria.

It was YOUR idea, you go do it.

Your question was, "Has he EVER thrown over the middle?"

Where was the Billy Miller TD pass against the Cowboys? It wasn't at the sidelines was it?

So there: There's ONE.

This is too dang easy. :yahoo:


This season. Just one.

real
11-21-2006, 10:40 AM
Jake Plummer(Denver)

Split...........Comp.......Att..........Yrds...... Pct
MIDDLE .......9 ............18 .........133 ......50.0

He's completed 5 less passes on 6 less attempts.....But he has about 50 more yards...

HOU-TEX
11-21-2006, 10:40 AM
Collapsing pocket, side-arm delivery and 6' 7" Olinemen and Dlinemen isn't a very good recipe for throwing over the middle. The only way he can get a WR inbetween the hashmarks would be by rolling out of the pocket.

Personally, I'd like to see some stuff over the middle too. having said that, I just want some freakin wins! I don't care who's QB, WR, etc., I just want some W's.:wild:

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 10:42 AM
JP Losman
Split...............Att.......Comp......Yrd....... .....Pct.
MIDDLE...........7 ...........9 ..........82 .........77.8


Losman has completed 7 less throws than Carr over the middle, yet he has more yards....

simple math...

Thats great, but.... Why dont we see a split of what the receivers are doing with the ball after they catch it "over the middle".... Or perhaps Carr needs to throw it to himself, and get his YAC.

real
11-21-2006, 10:44 AM
I didn't say he's an "accomplished passer over the middle."

Amazing. You guys are now putting words into my mouth: Which is more proof that YOU guys are trying to see more than what's really there.



Your absolutely right...He's not accomplished....In fact it's been pathetic....

I am not a stat guy and I kind of like to watch the games to find out who I think is good or isn't good....

Right now David isn't good...He's made mediocre plays, but nothing great....and often he's been poor...

The "carr haters" recognize this just as much as the "Carr lovers"....The only difference is that the "carr lovers" are defending Carr because of HOPE....Because there is no way that it can be from on field production....:twocents:

dtran04
11-21-2006, 10:46 AM
For whatever reason, I find myself rooting for Carr even more nowadays....just so the message board quiets down a bit. To be honest, I don't think he's "the guy" either but I find myself rooting for him just to prove people wrong. Most importantly, we'll get wins with his better play.

bah007
11-21-2006, 10:47 AM
For whatever reason, I find myself rooting for Carr even more nowadays....just so the message board quiets down a bit. To be honest, I don't think he's "the guy" either but I find myself rooting for him just to prove people wrong. Most importantly, we'll get wins with his better play.

I've always found myself rooting for every player on the Texans.

I guess I'm just a fan but I just cant stop rooting for all of them.

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 10:49 AM
What about those of us that are neither Carr haters, nor Carr pimps? Some of us are realists and know that NO quarterback would have succeeded over the last four and a half years given this teams history of coaching, talent level, drafting and free agent acquisitions....or there lack of....

What would be an interesting comparison to me would be Carr vs Manning.... No not that one.. Not that one either, but Archie who played his entire career in a poor situation...

Now that would be apples to apples...

real
11-21-2006, 10:49 AM
Thats great, but.... Why dont we see a split of what the receivers are doing with the ball after they catch it "over the middle".... Or perhaps Carr needs to throw it to himself, and get his YAC.

Andre Johnson is number 3 in YAC in the AFC....number 12 in the NFL....

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 10:50 AM
Andre Johnson is number 3 in YAC in the AFC....number 12 in the NFL....
I've known that. How many of those balls were "caught over the middle"...

real
11-21-2006, 10:55 AM
What about those of us that are neither Carr haters, nor Carr pimps? Some of us are realists and know that NO quarterback would have succeeded over the last four and a half years given this teams history of coaching, talent level, drafting and free agent acquisitions....or there lack of....


That's fine...

If you belive that D.Carr's mediocre to poor performances have been BECAUSE of "factors beyond his control" then so be it....

I think that Carr can be sufficient if he starts playing with some consistency, and making plays...I seriously doubt he'll ever be great....

It's year 5 people....

GP
11-21-2006, 10:56 AM
Your absolutely right...He's not accomplished....In fact it's been pathetic....

I am not a stat guy and I kind of like to watch the games to find out who I think is good or isn't good....

Right now David isn't good...He's made mediocre plays, but nothing great....and often he's been poor...

The "carr haters" recognize this just as much as the "Carr lovers"....The only difference is that the "carr lovers" are defending Carr because of HOPE....Because there is no way that it can be from on field production....:twocents:

Yeah, and "hoping" is a grave sin around here.

You'd make a great motivational speaker :crutch:

What's wrong with saying that there is improvement in all aspects from last year to this year?

I'm not saying he's a God. But I cannot stand to see people choosing to go negative on the guy. If that makes me a dork, then so be it.

real
11-21-2006, 10:58 AM
I've known that. How many of those balls were "caught over the middle"...

4 for 34 yards....

Which means Carr is hitting him with short passes...But c'mon Bill...Be honest with your self how many passes over 15 yards down the middle do you remember Carr throwing...How many times have you seen it this year...Do you really need me to gather stats for this ?

Im not sure where you're going with this but please fill me in...

texan279
11-21-2006, 11:00 AM
Andre Johnson is number 3 in YAC in the AFC....number 12 in the NFL....

Yeah, number one in the NFL in catches, #12 in the NFL in YAC, and doesn't even rank in the top 50 in the NFL in average yards per catch, that tells me he ain't doing much after the catch.

real
11-21-2006, 11:05 AM
Yeah, and "hoping" is a grave sin around here.

No hoping is good...But You can hope forever..At some point you gotta produce...


What's wrong with saying that there is improvement in all aspects from last year to this year?


Im pleased with some of the improvement that David and the rest of the team have made....

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 11:07 AM
4 for 34 yards....

Which means Carr is hitting him with short passes...But c'mon Bill...Be honest with your self how many passes over 15 yards down the middle do you remember Carr throwing...How many times have you seen it this year...Do you really need me to gather stats for this ?

Im not sure where you're going with this but please fill me in...

ABSOLUTELY NOT! I don't need anymore stats..PERIOD...

With respect to mediocre QB play, the entire offense is mediocre at best. Thats kinda my point.

You are considering this year 5. I am considering this year one. We actually do have some weapons for a change. The line, while not great has improved (as a result of the schemes) and the QB person is learning a new offense. So, with that said, I am liking what I am starting to see...

To be able throw over the middle, you have to have a running game that people respect. Linebackers not respecting the run can now squat and clog up the middle of the field without having to commit to coming up field to fill.

real
11-21-2006, 11:14 AM
Yeah, number one in the NFL in catches, #12 in the NFL in YAC, and doesn't even rank in the top 50 in the NFL in average yards per catch, that tells me he ain't doing much after the catch.

StallWorth leads the NFL in YPC and isn't in the top 20 in YAC....

But answer this for me...

Do you think where he gets the ball and how he gets it would be an objective in determining how his YAC would look?

If he were hit in a situation where he didn't have to make multiple guys miss or when he's in traffic do you think his YAC would be higher ?

Losman hit Evans for a long throw but he got great YAC because of where the ball was placed...If Evans slows down just a little Faggins probably tackles him....

A lot of balls to A.J are jump balls...

texan279
11-21-2006, 11:17 AM
StallWorth leads the NFL in YPC and isn't in the top 20 in YAC....

But answer this for me...

Do you think where he gets the ball and how he gets it would be an objective in determining how his YAC would look?

If he were hit in a situation where he didn't have to make multiple guys miss or when he's in traffic do you think his YAC would be higher ?

Losman hit Evans for a long throw but he got great YAC because of where the ball was placed...If Evans slows down just a little Faggins probably tackles him....

A lot of balls to A.J are jump balls...

Could that be because he rarely gets separation from the DB? Moulds caught several balls Sunday where he was wide open and made positive yardage after the catch.

real
11-21-2006, 11:22 AM
To be able throw over the middle, you have to have a running game that people respect. Linebackers not respecting the run can now squat and clog up the middle of the field without having to commit to coming up field to fill.

Arizona, Detroit, and Cleveland have the lowest rush yards/game...

Leinart, Kitna, and Frye are crushing Carr in that category....

Why can't that just be something he's not good at ? Why do you have to keep searching for exscuses ?

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 11:24 AM
Could it just be that stats mean nothing except to those trying to make a point in their favor?

Joe Blow averages 1.79 posts on this board per day....
Jane Doe averages .89 posts per day...

Argument a) "Joe is kickin' butt"
Argument b) "Yeah, but Jane's posts are more quality posts"

"after further review, Joe did not make a football move and jane throws down the middle of the field"

Enough stats!!!

real
11-21-2006, 11:28 AM
Could that be because he rarely gets separation from the DB?

No...I doubt it....

Im not saying A.J is the best WR out there, But A.J is a better WR than Carr is a QB....

This is the NFL...If Carr needs his recievers to constantly get a lot of seperation he needs to go play arena leauge...Check out some other teams this sunday and look at how some other QB's use ball placement...A.J's route running isn't all that, but it seems like most of this guys long catches he always has to jump in the air for...

A.J has good speed...

Carr can afford to take some air off of his throws and hit the guy in stride...

Honoring Earl 34
11-21-2006, 11:30 AM
I bet Carr looks left first and last ( first is last ) ... thats what it means .

real
11-21-2006, 11:31 AM
Enough stats!!!

You're right...we can just watch his poor/mediocre play....

We don't need stats for that...

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 11:38 AM
Arizona, Detroit, and Cleveland have the lowest rush yards/game...

Leinart, Kitna, and Frye are crushing Carr in that category....

Why can't that just be something he's not good at ? Why do you have to keep searching for exscuses ?

As I am sure you have, I played for a long time. I played linebacker as a matter of fact.

I would like to use a game that we all will remember quite clearly as an example of what I am talking about.... Texans v. Cowgurls 9/8/2002.

First, Dallas could not run the ball. What did the Texans Linebackers do? They didn't respect the run, and in fact, when Foreman dropped what should have been an easy interception, he was 20+ yards deep. Another play that Sharper broke up, he was 15 to 20 yards deep or at least deep enough that he collided with Coleman. Thats what I was talking about with Linebackers dropping off and clogging the field between the hashes....

Personally I would like to see the offense direct more plays down the middle of the field in the 15 to 20 (or more) yards range. What baffling is that Corey Bradford can catch a game winning bomb between the hashes 5 years ago on a well thrown ball but we can't now... Is that an issue of talent lost (because he made some other really nice throws between the hash marks too)? or is it a matter of different schemes?

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 11:41 AM
You're right...we can just watch his poor/mediocre play....

We don't need stats for that...

LOL.......
Did you pay your $40.00 for the Texans dream job deal? Because with your vast knowledge of football, I am surprised that you have time to post... What with your phone ringing off the hook for NFL GM positions.

texan279
11-21-2006, 11:43 AM
No...I doubt it....

Im not saying A.J is the best WR out there, But A.J is a better WR than Carr is a QB....

This is the NFL...If Carr needs his recievers to constantly get a lot of seperation he needs to go play arena leauge...Check out some other teams this sunday and look at how some other QB's use ball placement...A.J's route running isn't all that, but it seems like most of this guys long catches he always has to jump in the air for...

A.J has good speed...

Carr can afford to take some air off of his throws and hit the guy in stride...

Because a majority of the time he is being covered by a DB and he should be able to go up and make a play on the ball. Moulds and everyone else seem to be open when Carr throws their way.

real
11-21-2006, 11:51 AM
Because a majority of the time he is being covered by a DB and he should be able to go up and make a play on the ball. Moulds and everyone else seem to be open when Carr throws their way.

O.K you're right....

David makes great throws to A.J and everyone else is getting more seperation....

All of the other 2 times he's passed to a WR(1 to walker & 1 to moulds) over the middle they had more seperation than Andre....

How about the fact that a majority of Davids over the middle throws have gone to RB's and FB's ?

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 11:53 AM
O.K you're right....

David makes great throws to A.J and everyone else is getting more seperation....

All of the other 2 times he's passed to a WR(1 to walker & 1 to moulds) over the middle they had more seperation than Andre....

How about the fact that a majority of Davids over the middle throws have gone to RB's and FB's ?

It depends... If its less than 10-15 yards - thats the W/C offense...

Can you say Montana to Roger Craig... Well maybe you don't remember the W/C offense back then.....

real
11-21-2006, 11:55 AM
LOL.......
Did you pay your $40.00 for the Texans dream job deal? Because with your vast knowledge of football, I am surprised that you have time to post... What with your phone ringing off the hook for NFL GM positions.

:snobord:

real
11-21-2006, 11:58 AM
It depends... If its less than 10-15 yards - thats the W/C offense...

Can you say Montana to Roger Craig... Well maybe you don't remember the W/C offense back then.....

First you say you want to stop talking about stats....then you bring them back up...

If you think Carr=Montana then I totally understand your P.O.V....:joker:

texan279
11-21-2006, 12:03 PM
O.K you're right....

David makes great throws to A.J and everyone else is getting more seperation....

All of the other 2 times he's passed to a WR(1 to walker & 1 to moulds) over the middle they had more seperation than Andre....

How about the fact that a majority of Davids over the middle throws have gone to RB's and FB's ?

I never said Carr's passes were perfect, but if people want Carr to air it out to AJ, he needs to get open every once in awhile, and besides that, in the WCO there are not going to be a lot of long balls thrown. And does it really matter who he throws the ball to?

real
11-21-2006, 12:12 PM
I never said Carr's passes were perfect, but if people want Carr to air it out to AJ, he needs to get open every once in awhile, and besides that, in the WCO there are not going to be a lot of long balls thrown. And does it really matter who he throws the ball to?

IMO, A.J is a better reciever than Carr is a QB...

Im not as worried about the reciever that "doesn't get seperation" as I am about the QB that's not performing at an acceptable level...

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 12:23 PM
First you say you want to stop talking about stats....then you bring them back up...

If you think Carr=Montana then I totally understand your P.O.V....:joker:

What stat did I bring up? I asked you a question directly related to a comment you made. If you are in fact talking about passes under ~ 10-15 yards, I am merely stating that is a function of the offense's philosophy.

LOL, did I ever compare Carr to Montana?... Not hardly... LOL

Anyway, what I am trying to explain to you.... If you would read for a change instead of Knee-jerk reacting, is that the W/C offense does not feature throws down the field in the manner in which you are trying to prove your anti-carr diatribes. This offense is based on shorter routes and ball control....

Again, and this is my personal opinion, I think with the weapons we have in AJ and Moulds, we should at least take a couple of shots down the field to stretch and spread out the congestion in the middle that I was talking about from lack of a (consistent) running game. We should still be able to take these shots, and maintain the integrity of the offense's philosophy. Long passes do not have to be high risk (especially on a corner route, like AJ caught last week in JAX). If he doesn't make that catch on the run, no one does...

texan279
11-21-2006, 12:25 PM
IMO, A.J is a better reciever than Carr is a QB...

Im not as worried about the reciever that "doesn't get seperation" as I am about the QB that's not performing at an acceptable level...

If you are not worried that our #1 WR cannot get separation I don't know what to tell you. And what exactly has Carr done that is so unacceptable? Did he give up 2 80+ yard TD catches Sunday? Did he fumble at the opponents 13? Oh no that's right, he led 2 70+ yard TD drives after we went down 14-0 in the 1st quarter then was leading a 3rd 7 play drive where he completed 7 passes in a row until our FB fumbled at the Bills' 13 yard line.

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 12:25 PM
IMO, A.J is a better reciever than Carr is a QB...

Im not as worried about the reciever that "doesn't get seperation" as I am about the QB that's not performing at an acceptable level...

Just curious... What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 12:28 PM
If you are not worried that our #1 WR cannot get separation I don't know what to tell you. And what exactly has Carr done that is so unacceptable? Did he give up 2 80+ yard TD catches Sunday? Did he fumble at the opponents 13? Oh no that's right, he led 2 70+ yard TD drives after we went down 14-0 in the 1st quarter then was leading a 3rd 7 play drive where he completed 7 passes in a row until our FB fumbled at the Bills' 13 yard line.


Both of y'all are crazy on this one... Andre will be making his second pro-bowl appearance and its Carr getting him the ball... Now, if all 11 guys become 1 unit - an offense, we are not even having this conversation.

And it was Carrs fault for not coming over the top in cover 2 on the two 83 yard bombs.... j/k

real
11-21-2006, 12:29 PM
If you are not worried that our #1 WR cannot get separation ...

Notice the "" marks I surrounded "can't get seperation" with...

Your words....not mine.....

I think he gets enough...

real
11-21-2006, 12:31 PM
Just curious... What came first, the chicken or the egg?

I'm not sure where that plays into this....A WR getting seperation has nothing to do with a QB that isn't performing up to par...

:snobord:

texan279
11-21-2006, 12:41 PM
I'm not sure where that plays into this....A WR getting seperation has nothing to do with a QB that isn't performing up to par...

:snobord:

You never answered the question I asked...

And what exactly has Carr done that is so unacceptable? Did he give up 2 80+ yard TD catches Sunday? Did he fumble at the opponents 13? Oh no that's right, he led 2 70+ yard TD drives after we went down 14-0 in the 1st quarter then was leading a 3rd 7 play drive where he completed 7 passes in a row until our FB fumbled at the Bills' 13 yard line.

I keep reading how horrible Carr is but haven't really read why he is so bad...

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 12:42 PM
I'm not sure where that plays into this....A WR getting seperation has nothing to do with a QB that isn't performing up to par...

:snobord:

The point is... You say that the QB's performance has a direct correalation to the receivers performance, and 279 is suggesting that the QB cant perform unless the receiver gets separation. Which comes first, the separation for a receiver to become a target, or should the QB be so pin-point accurate like a laser guided missile, that the reciever can make the catch in spite of the coverage?

In addition your logic would suggest; that Jabbar Gaffney should still be a Texan, Afterall it was the QB's mediocre play, and it nothing to do with the fact that Gaffney could not get any separation?

real
11-21-2006, 12:44 PM
I keep reading how horrible Carr is but haven't really read why he is so bad...

I really can't make you believe that Carr is underacheiving if you don't already see it....

Yes the defense needs to tighten up, but Carr was put in a position to make a play and he threw the ball into the dirt...

I'd rather have a QB that doesn't have 22 completions in a row, but can make the plays when they matter most...That's what seperates mediocre/good/great QB's...

texan279
11-21-2006, 12:45 PM
The point is... You say that the QB's performance has a direct correalation to the receivers performance, and 279 is suggesting that the QB cant perform unless the receiver gets separation. Which comes first, the separation for a receiver to become a target, or should the QB be so pin-point accurate like a laser guided missile, that the reciever can make the catch?

In addition your logic would suggest; that Jabbar Gaffney should still be a Texan, Afterall it was the QB's mediocre play, and it nothing to do with the fact that Gaffney could not get any separation?

Really all I am wanting to know is why Carr gets blamed for every loss yet when we win everyone but Carr gets credit. The one INT Carr threw against Buffalo maybe should not have been thrown, but AJ had that ball in his hands, if he is the elite WR some claim, he should have came away with that ball.

real
11-21-2006, 12:47 PM
The point is... You say that the QB's performance has a direct correalation to the receivers performance, and 279 is suggesting that the QB cant perform unless the receiver gets separation. Which comes first, the separation for a receiver to become a target, or should the QB be so pin-point accurate like a laser guided missile, that the reciever can make the catch in spite of the coverage?

In addition your logic would suggest; that Jabbar Gaffney should still be a Texan, Afterall it was the QB's mediocre play, and it nothing to do with the fact that Gaffney could not get any separation?

You can keep taking it to different extremes if you want...

But the fact still remains that A.J is a better reciever than Carr is a QB...

If the freaking combo isn't working who do you replace ?

If you think that Carr would be doing much better with better recievers I think you are mistaken...

But I do believe that A.J would be MUCH better with a better QB...period....

texan279
11-21-2006, 12:48 PM
I really can't make you believe that Carr is underacheiving if you don't already see it....

Yes the defense needs to tighten up, but Carr was put in a position to make a play and he threw the ball into the dirt...

I'd rather have a QB that doesn't have 22 completions in a row, but can make the plays when they matter most...That's what seperates mediocre/good/great QB's...

OK, so it's Carr's fault for letting the Bills march 50+ yards in the last 1:30? IMO it was a stupid play call anyway, if we had just ran the ball the Bills would have been forced to use a timeout, we basically gave them a free timout with the incompletion.

real
11-21-2006, 12:50 PM
Really all I am wanting to know is why Carr gets blamed for every loss yet when we win everyone but Carr gets credit. The one INT Carr threw against Buffalo maybe should not have been thrown, but AJ had that ball in his hands, if he is the elite WR some claim, he should have came away with that ball.

I haven't blamed anyone for a loss.......ever.....

The team is full of problems...

But we shouldn't have to go through the "why do we talk about Carr more than anyone else" argument....

:lightbulb:

texan279
11-21-2006, 12:54 PM
You can keep taking it to different extremes if you want...

But the fact still remains that A.J is a better reciever than Carr is a QB...

If the freaking combo isn't working who do you replace ?

If you think that Carr would be doing much better with better recievers I think you are mistaken...

But I do believe that A.J would be MUCH better with a better QB...period....

Look at what Roy Williams has done with Jon Kitna throwing to him this season, or Evans with Losman, I could go on. And Carr is doing better this season with the addition of Moulds and Daniels, I don't see where he is playing badly or worse than the previous four seasons.

texan279
11-21-2006, 12:54 PM
I haven't blamed anyone for a loss.......ever.....

The team is full of problems...

But we shouldn't have to go through the "why do we talk about Carr more than anyone else" argument....

:lightbulb:


I never called out anyone saying they have blamed Carr for a loss...

real
11-21-2006, 12:54 PM
OK, so it's Carr's fault for letting the Bills march 50+ yards in the last 1:30? IMO it was a stupid play call anyway, if we had just ran the ball the Bills would have been forced to use a timeout, we basically gave them a free timout with the incompletion.

If you want to limit your opinions of Carr to this one game so be it...

I'm thinking in a broad sense...

That wasn't the first time Carr has failed to make a play...Carr has been inept since he's been here....

But I do realize he needs time...I'm not suggesting that Carr shouldn't start, and can't win games for us...

I'm merely pointing out that he hasn't done it, and has failed to show consistency throughout his tenure...He hasn't shown me anything to lead me to believe he will become great or even consistently o.k....Id actually take consistently o.k at this point....Carr is getting his chance and he's basically being viewed as a rookie...Good for him....now it's time show it...

BigDTexansFan
11-21-2006, 12:56 PM
in someone else's word. "What a strange, sad little man"..it's for you Uncle Rico

Wonger Need Food has officially been changed to Wonger Need Diaper Changed...

real
11-21-2006, 12:58 PM
... I don't see where he is playing badly or worse than the previous four seasons.

It's not that he's playing worse...

I'm not pleased with his rate of progression...

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 01:15 PM
You can keep taking it to different extremes if you want...

But the fact still remains that A.J is a better reciever than Carr is a QB...

If the freaking combo isn't working who do you replace ?

If you think that Carr would be doing much better with better recievers I think you are mistaken...

But I do believe that A.J would be MUCH better with a better QB...period....


DUDE - that is your opinion... There is no mathematical formula or pixie dust to prove any of that... You could be right, you could be wrong. But no matter how many back-handed shots you take at the 'one' you dont like, to make the 'one' you do like, look better, there is NO way to prove it...

By the way, I have yet to state one way or the other about the receivers.

All I want, is to evaluate the QB position at the END of this season. Again to me, he is first year QB as far as I am concerned.

You are completely nuts if you think the record would have been dramatically different this season than what it is with anybody at QB other than.... well anyone.... Do you really, really think this team would be 7-3 or 8-2 with Tom Brady? C'mon, I thought you knew football... Brady might have gotten us 1 more win on his own. But even he would be the first to remind you that it is a TEAM sport.

All negativity aside, the TEAM has been improving, but ITS still bad... Take off the blinders man, and you will see plenty of blame to go around to everyone except the cheerleaders...

real
11-21-2006, 01:19 PM
Do you really, really think this team would be 7-3 or 8-2 with Tom Brady?


You are nuts if you don't recognize that A.J is a better player than D.Carr....

And you are equally nuts if you don't think that a better QB wouldn't have equaled more wins...

but you're right....




It's just my opinion.....:joker:

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 01:27 PM
You are nuts if you don't recognize that A.J is a better player than D.Carr....

And you are equally nuts if you don't think that a better QB would have equaled more wins...

but you're right....




It's just my opinion.....:joker:

READ.... I have not voiced an opinion about AJ versus Carr being a better football player. Art Monk was a better football player than Doug Williams, on the other hand, Tom Brady is a better football player than any of the receivers he's had... Both guys have one Super Bowls.. There's no point, nor argument to that discussion.

As far as another QB equalling more wins, neither one of us will know, because it can NEVER be proven... But given the performance of the entire TEAM, Offense, Defense, ST and rookie coaching mistakes, I like my chances.

You were probably one of those folks screaming to start Dave Ragone, so I see where you are coming from.

real
11-21-2006, 01:38 PM
READ.... I have not voiced an opinion about AJ versus Carr being a better football player. Art Monk was a better football player than Doug Williams, on the other hand, Tom Brady is a better football player than any of the receivers he's had... Both guys have one Super Bowls.. There's no point, nor argument to that discussion.


We haven't had a winning season...So I don't see how you can make the comparison to two super bowl winning teams....There's no discussion because they win....Therefore there is no problem to discuss....They got it done...

We lose...We don't get it done....that means there IS a problem....And my point is that David is one of the weaker links...

Now you can blame it on o-line or the running game and overlook the fact that Carr has done things to hinder us from winning if you'd like...that's your choice...

I'll belive that Carr hasn't played up to the level that he should....

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 01:56 PM
Again, please read..... The point has nothing really to do with Super Bowls, the point is it is useless to compare two different positions. I could give you other examples if you would like.... That way you can focus in on the point, and not get sidetracked in trying to figure out how you can spin it.

Whatever, I will just consider your frame of reference. That being the last 4 1/2 years and the fact that you were only 8 or 9 (maybe 10) the last time we had professional football here.

TX34
11-21-2006, 02:11 PM
Bottomline
AJ can't catch
and Carr needs a offensive line

Texan_Bill
11-21-2006, 02:13 PM
Bottomline
AJ can't catch
and Carr needs a offensive line

Ya had to go there..... :stirpot: And just when I thought I was chilling everyone out....... LOL

MrMeToo
11-21-2006, 05:10 PM
You can keep taking it to different extremes if you want...

But the fact still remains that A.J is a better reciever than Carr is a QB...

If the freaking combo isn't working who do you replace ?

If you think that Carr would be doing much better with better recievers I think you are mistaken...

But I do believe that A.J would be MUCH better with a better QB...period....

I agree...

ib4texans
11-21-2006, 06:46 PM
I think that AJ is still growing developmentaly,we may yet see him get the seperation that we see with Steve Smith or Chad Johnson. For now however D's cover him so tight on the long routes that he is generally forced into the underneath routes. I have to agree that if he could get open over the middle that he could probably destroy in YAC, when he gets the ball on the outside he's either forced out of bounds or directly into two defenders. Give props where they are due however, if David Carr does not target him 35% of the time his stats go down,Owen Daniels,Eric Moulds etc... will increase.

Mattheus_Rex
11-22-2006, 02:58 AM
Hahaha, when I saw the title of the thread, the first thing that came to mind was, "to our team or the other team?"

GP
11-22-2006, 09:38 AM
No hoping is good...But You can hope forever..At some point you gotta produce...



Im pleased with some of the improvement that David and the rest of the team have made....

This is year one. And that's what doesn't get enough dialogue around here.

You're "pleased with the improvement," but you have dedicated hours of your time around here spewing the David sucks mantra?

I mean, don't tell me that you're NOT saying he sucks. Re-read your posts.

How can you be pleased with his improvement and then type what you're typing?

I don't think he's "at" where he needs to be "at," but I am dang sure more happy with his production this year than I had been with his production over the last four seasons COMBINED.

Why can't some of you guys be satisfied with that?

I'll tell you why: Because we don't have the wins you and I would both like to have. Winning makes everything look better, feel better.

I choose to trust, to hope. You say that at some point you have to produce: And yet you admit that he's making progress.

Isn't that "prooduction" that you speak of?

Or is "production" translated into "wins?"

I think that the wins only come when the whole team is focused and playing their top game. Obviously, IMO, we're still seeing the residual effects of the past four seasons.

Like a drug's side effects, it takes awhile to wear off.

real
11-22-2006, 09:46 AM
I don't think he's "at" where he needs to be "at," but I am dang sure more happy with his production this year than I had been with his production over the last four seasons COMBINED.

Why can't some of you guys be satisfied with that?


David is not playing at a level which he should even with all the "outside" factors you named...New System, year one, drugs, yada...yada...yada....

He isn't playing at the level that I think he should be playing at...That's why I have taken my time to spew this "Carr sucks mantra"....

I never said that we couldn't win with Carr...I think we can if he just plays o.k on a consistent basis...but he hasn't shown that ability in 5 yrs....

It's one thing to be consistently mediocre....

You can't be mediocre AND make costly mistakes....

MrMeToo
11-22-2006, 10:11 AM
Hahaha, when I saw the title of the thread, the first thing that came to mind was, "to our team or the other team?"

LOL

Honoring Earl 34
11-22-2006, 10:41 AM
Has anyone looked back at the archives and dated the Carr's not all that threads .

I like Kubiak and his honesty about plays or players . On that note I also think that Kubiak likes a certain type of player and this offseason we'll see what he really thinks about this team and how he and Rick Smith define what a Texan player is .