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TheIronDuke
11-19-2006, 06:37 PM
He looked pretty good today, I did see one play where he got blown up, but for the most part he seemed to be able to pass protect well. That's not to mention the fact that he was able to spring Lundy for the TD run. Anyone else see something I didn't?

Also seemed like a pretty good performance overall by the OL besides Salaam sacking DC. I was expecting the Bills to be able to get to DC much easier than I saw today.

bah007
11-19-2006, 06:43 PM
He looked pretty good today, I did see one play where he got blown up, but for the most part he seemed to be able to pass protect well. That's not to mention the fact that he was able to spring Lundy for the TD run. Anyone else see something I didn't?

Also seemed like a pretty good performance overall by the OL besides Salaam sacking DC. I was expecting the Bills to be able to get to DC much easier than I saw today.

I have been one of Winston's biggest critics but I liked what I saw today.

I'm not ready to declare that he is the answer or even admit that he has the talent of an NFL starter based on just one game tho.

Again, I liked what he did today & hopefully he can keep it going.

YoungTexanFan
11-19-2006, 08:41 PM
I on the other hand, have been one of Winston's biggest supporters. I have been pimping this guy since before his injury at Miami. He is a player who gets it done. I really see him as our best LT on the roster, even when Spencer is healthy. He had a solid game, and he will be better with more experience.

Honoring Earl 34
11-19-2006, 08:51 PM
If Winstons holding his own thats a good sign . Having said that we still need to look at some depth in the draft .

YoungTexanFan
11-19-2006, 08:55 PM
If Winstons holding his own thats a good sign . Having said that we still need to look at some depth in the draft .

Yes, I was in favor of drafting a stud LT until I just felt like puking after watching our secondary. I'm hope for a FA signing or trade and a stud next year. We need secondary help NOW. Maybe Gaither will stay in school?

run-david-run
11-19-2006, 09:38 PM
i blame today's secondary struggles on coaches more then talent. i even knew Faggins gets beat deep often. how do i know this? i've seen him play. i think he is a pretty good corner, but he gets beat deep often. i also know lee evans is one of the best deep receivers in the league and he would take faggins if he has the opportunity to run past him. i dont understand why the coaches didnt put robinson on evans to try and take away the deep ball. obviously you would also use some saftey cover, but relying on earl, brown and simmons is not a good idea. you have to know your players, thier strengths and their weaknesses, the coaching staff didnt demonstrate that knowledge today.

bah007
11-19-2006, 11:36 PM
i blame today's secondary struggles on coaches more then talent. i even knew Faggins gets beat deep often. how do i know this? i've seen him play. i think he is a pretty good corner, but he gets beat deep often. i also know lee evans is one of the best deep receivers in the league and he would take faggins if he has the opportunity to run past him. i dont understand why the coaches didnt put robinson on evans to try and take away the deep ball. obviously you would also use some saftey cover, but relying on earl, brown and simmons is not a good idea. you have to know your players, thier strengths and their weaknesses, the coaching staff didnt demonstrate that knowledge today.

A pretty good corner doesnt get beat deep often.

With that said tho, I am strongly in the belief that CB is flat-out the hardest position to play in the NFL.

run-david-run
11-19-2006, 11:41 PM
A pretty good corner doesnt get beat deep often.With that said tho, I am strongly in the belief that CB is flat-out the hardest position to play in the NFL.

Everyone gets beat deep. keep in mind this is one of the fastes guys in the NFL and the coaches should not be allowing him to go one on one with Faggins. obviously we made some adjustements because they didnt throw deep again and Evans got about 60 yards the rest of the game after 200 in the first quarter.

West Texas Texan
11-19-2006, 11:49 PM
Winston has just retired Weigert. He dominated his assignment most of the day, and when the Texans needed the big "yard", they ran off his behind. Not bad considering Kubiak doesn't think he can play in the NFL. He really should be our starting LT. If spencer can come back next year, and that's a BIG "if", they should put him over at RT, and see if he can learn the position. Winston has much better technique than Spencer, understands the blocking assignments much better, and IS a LT.

YoungTexanFan
11-19-2006, 11:56 PM
Winston has just retired Weigert. He dominated his assignment most of the day, and when the Texans needed the big "yard", they ran off his behind. Not bad considering Kubiak doesn't think he can play in the NFL. He really should be our starting LT. If spencer can come back next year, and that's a BIG "if", they should put him over at RT, and see if he can learn the position. Winston has much better technique than Spencer, understands the blocking assignments much better, and IS a LT.

I agree with this post completely, though I would like to see Spencer inside at RG a little but could easily live with him at RT. Winston is our best LT.

YoungTexanFan
11-19-2006, 11:57 PM
Winston has just retired Weigert. He dominated his assignment most of the day, and when the Texans needed the big "yard", they ran off his behind. Not bad considering Kubiak doesn't think he can play in the NFL. He really should be our starting LT. If spencer can come back next year, and that's a BIG "if", they should put him over at RT, and see if he can learn the position. Winston has much better technique than Spencer, understands the blocking assignments much better, and IS a LT.

forgot to mention, positive rep coming your way. :superman: :dance2:

Crazyhorse
11-20-2006, 11:14 AM
Well I'll jump on the band wagon too!!! I have said all along that this kid is very good and yesterday is a great example. First start and make a number of key plays. On a number of plays to the left he was getting down field and getting a secondary block. This kid may be the second coming of Tony B. but time will tell. I to agree that by next season he will be the best tackle on the team and should move to the left side whether Spencer returns or not. He is not only good physicalally but he is football smart and that will make him great!!!!!!!!!!

Insideop
11-20-2006, 09:15 PM
Winston has just retired Weigert. He dominated his assignment most of the day, and when the Texans needed the big "yard", they ran off his behind. Not bad considering Kubiak doesn't think he can play in the NFL. He really should be our starting LT. If spencer can come back next year, and that's a BIG "if", they should put him over at RT, and see if he can learn the position. Winston has much better technique than Spencer, understands the blocking assignments much better, and IS a LT.

I don't agree with moving "Caveman" to LT. I would like to keep him at RT and draft Joe Thomas (if we can get him) for the LT spot and move Spencer to one of the guard spots, or make him the "swing tackle" while he gets back up to speed. As for the DB positions, I'd like to try and get some on the FA market. Maybe Asante Samuel or Nate Clements can be picked up. JMHO!

TheRealJoker
11-20-2006, 09:19 PM
I was happy to see Winston do well. 1 less position to worry about in our breakout season next year.

That said....WAR ASANTE SAMUEL AND WINNING SWAGGER!!!

Hervoyel
11-20-2006, 10:22 PM
Yes, I was in favor of drafting a stud LT until I just felt like puking after watching our secondary. I'm hope for a FA signing or trade and a stud next year. We need secondary help NOW. Maybe Gaither will stay in school?

Your secondary help needs to come in the form of a veteran free agent. If we draft a CB in the first round, even if it's at the very top of the first round we're going to be watching them play like they do this year for most if not all of 2007.

If I was in a position to make the decision and If it were possible (depending on availability) I'd go for the best CB AND safety (FS or SS whichever one I could bring in) I could afford in free agency. On the defensive side we could use help at linebacker and in the secondary. The linebacker could be a rookie but we need experienced players in secondary and we need them yesterday.

I'd use the first round pick on either a LT or a RB but if I spent it on a RB I'd use at least one other first day pick on an offensive lineman. If Spencer looks like he's going to come back strong by then I'd even go so far as to say I'd use that other first day pick on a G or C. I have a soft spot for Chester Pitts but he can often be a false start/holding monster. After 5 years I'm thinking I want to see someone beat that man out of a job.

beerlover
11-20-2006, 10:39 PM
stud secondary help via free agency is going to cost "Big Bucks" you almost have to draft & develop them yourself. plus they have to want to come here, maybe Kubiak could convince borderline studs but the top available talent will cost too much.

If I where to do it my free agent choices would be RB Michael Turner (Chargers) some quality CB & lineman & draft bpa. for instance the Texans are soft in the middle of the defensive line since Payne/TJ got hurt, you could both upgrade/replace them with Alan Branch (Michigan) or Gaines Adams DE 6-4, 265 Clemson to balance the other side of the line opposite Mario which would increase his production because right now teams just run away from him. Chances are however after the combine some CB will breakout and run a subpar 4.3 & GM's will be drooling to draft him. One thing for sure any of these sceneros would work and help make the Texans better defensively.

Runner
11-20-2006, 10:43 PM
Just to be clear:

Spencer has played 1.5 NFL games. I realize people were talking Pro Bowl after the first two pre-season games he played against second stringers, but still: 1.5 NFL games.

Winston has played 1 complete NFL game.


All this bookend tackle talk on various threads seems a little pre-mature. It would be great if these guys worked out, but let's see them earn it/prove it first. Fans set these high expectations for players based on little NFL level data and get very upset when the players don't measure up.

Crazyhorse
11-20-2006, 11:07 PM
If you knew Eric Winston you would understand why I talk about him as a bookend in tackle. I watched this kid come through high school and just get better by the day and be part of winning three straight State Championships. In Texas that is no small feat. I followed him to Miami and watched him grow and then the injury at Georgia Tech. Most kids might have hung it up but not Eric. Not only did he come back but did it in his own unique way. Keep in mind his injury was not just an ACL, but the MCL, PCL, and part of the Quad Muscle. The same injury that Willis had without the bone damage. In a mere 10 months this kid willed himself back on the field, never missing a practice or game his senior year.
This kid has the will to be great and will be an anchor the OL for the Texans. He will be tested and he will meet the challenge put in front of him.

Runner
11-20-2006, 11:14 PM
If you knew Eric Winston you would understand why I talk about him as a bookend in tackle. I watched this kid come through high school and just get better by the day and be part of winning three straight State Championships. In Texas that is no small feat. I followed him to Miami and watched him grow and then the injury at Georgia Tech. Most kids might have hung it up but not Eric. Not only did he come back but did it in his own unique way. Keep in mind his injury was not just an ACL, but the MCL, PCL, and part of the Quad Muscle. The same injury that Willis had without the bone damage. In a mere 10 months this kid willed himself back on the field, never missing a practice or game his senior year.
This kid has the will to be great and will be an anchor the OL for the Texans. He will be tested and he will meet the challenge put in front of him.

I understand your position more than you know. That is why I let you and West Texas's posts slide sometimes. :) You're a long time Winston fan and should stand by him!

Sometimes other fans set very high expectations, and aren't pleased when they aren't met. They may set Winston on a pedestal, and if he'd have a really bad game giving up three sacks or something they'd start calling him a bust and calling for his head.

I know you aren't going to give up on him; others might. In reality our bookends have 2.5 games (ok, 3 - Eric has had some spot duty) between them. They should still be in "prove it" mode to most of us.

West Texas Texan
11-21-2006, 02:10 AM
I guess what I see is that there is a double standard by the coaches on the O Line. Weigert and Salaam get beat repeatedly and Kubiak states that "tackles get beat from time to time, its part of the game". Of course they are his boys. However, Winston got beat in the very beginning of the game, only one time (I went back and re-watched every offense snap) and today Kubiak says "He got beat early on an inside move, and Carr was intercepted". As if it was Winston's fault that Carr underthrew the pass. Actually on replay, the ball was gone before the defensive player touched Carr.

I also wonder why Kubiak didn't say a word about the inside pressure from the lack of effort from the guard positions.

I think in the final analysis, the Texans now have three rushing TD's off Winston blocks, one being a game winner. The Texans only have 6 rushing TD's for the whole year. So Winston has helped produce 50% of the rushing TD's to date, while only starting 1 game and part time work in one other. Yet, "his arms are too short, and we are concerned about that". AND "We are going to see if he can play in the NFL".

Runner
11-21-2006, 08:05 AM
Well, I’ve been avoiding posting this because of the ugly turn it will probably take, but here goes.

I think that watching the development of Winston will give us some concrete evidence with which to compare this coaching staff to the previous one in a critical area – player development. Many of the things being said about Eric Winston were said about Seth Wand when he joined the Texans. There are some eerie parallels.

1) Both were considered very talented physically coming into the league.
2) They share similar physical traits.
3) I haven’t looked it up recently, but I think they had similar combine numbers.
4) Both were considered by their coaching staffs as requiring more development work before they were ready to be starters in the league.
5) Both were third round picks.

There are some major differences too.

1) Winston was part of a major college program, Wand went to small college.
2) Most of Wand’s first year experience was as a 6th lineman playing tight end in the jumbo package the team used then, with some playing time as an injury substitution. Winston had seen less playing time until last week; he will now get some significant time as a starter.
3) Winston returned from a major injury in college; Wand hasn't had a significant injury.


Wand was a victim of poor offensive scheme and team politics (Capers/Pendry vs. Casserly) as summarized by Justice in his blog when he was cut.


Seth Wand was cut on Saturday. Two years ago, it looked for a brief time that he would solve the Texans' problems at left tackle. He started that season when the team won seven games and seemed to be getting better.

He had a famously bad game against Dwight Freeney, but a lot of established tackles, including Jonathan Ogden, have had bad days against Freeney. It's incredible that the coaching staff was too dumb to give him consistent help from a tight end or running back.

The previous coaching staff soured on Wand and pretty much had him out of their plans by last season. That decision was one of many Charley Casserly disagree with that staff about. Once it became clear that rookie left tackle Charles Spencer could play left tackle there was no place on the roster for Wand.



http://blogs.chron.com/sportsjustice/archives/2006/09/goodbye_to_doma.html


Comparing Winston’s career in the next 2-3 years to Wand’s years here will provide a good chance to compare/contrast how the two staffs develop young players while the coaches and front office attempt to build/rebuild the Texans into winners.

Crazyhorse
11-21-2006, 09:37 AM
Being an Eric fan I won't throw stones at Wand BUT, having watched Wand in preseason for two years I will make these comparisons. Wand is and never was as phyiscal as Eric in his game. His pass blocking was ok but he had no drive in the running game. His stance was bad and I never could understand why the coaches didn't try to improve it. But the biggest difference is passion. Wand never struck me as having the passion for the game that Eric does.

Runner
11-21-2006, 09:49 AM
Being an Eric fan I won't throw stones at Wand BUT, having watched Wand in preseason for two years I will make these comparisons. Wand is and never was as phyiscal as Eric in his game. His pass blocking was ok but he had no drive in the running game. His stance was bad and I never could understand why the coaches didn't try to improve it. But the biggest difference is passion. Wand never struck me as having the passion for the game that Eric does.

It's funny about Wand's run blocking - the year he played LT the Texans averaged more yards behind him than they have running any other direction any other year. Just think if he could run block! :)

Judging players from a distance can lead to misconceptions - a quiet demeaner doesn't have to equate to not striving to be your best.

HOWEVER - that is not what my post was about. I think that this is a good opportunity to watch how the different staffs develop players, don't you?

Seth could have been better with decent coaching his first three years (this can be said about most Texans of that era). If Eric receives poor coaching (i.e. gets moved to guard), I think you'd see that as poor player development, not a fault of Eric. I believe you already made similar statements regarding his move to right tackle.

HOU-TEX
11-21-2006, 09:51 AM
I'm on Winstons side. He will eventually be much better than Weigert. From what I noticed Sunday, he looked pretty good at run blocking. I think he still needs to work on his feet and hand speed while pass blocking. Of course Salaam's around 50 years old and he still needs to work on quickness, so who knows. I guess it's all in the ability to learn.:dance2:

South Texan
11-21-2006, 11:26 AM
If nothing else, I think he proved he deserves more playing time. It's not like he would keep us out of the Superbowl this year.

Unless he turns out to be a total bust, keep him around... we seem to have a depth problem on the O-Line.

nunusguy
11-21-2006, 11:38 AM
I saw Winston get beat by Daryl Trapp in the Senoir Bowl earlier this year with
the same kind of inside move that he got beat with in the first series Sunday at Reliant. Wonder if he's particular vulnerable to that kind of move ?
Anybody got a take on whether Winstons present strength is considered to be run blocking or pass protection ?
Kubiak sounds very supportive of Winston, but then he was very supportive of
Wand and ended up cutting him in a NY second ! Sometimes I think Kubiak is too quick to praise his players in the presence of the media. It can make him seem disingenuous in some situations. Like with Seth Wand.

HJam72
11-21-2006, 11:43 AM
Seth Wand hasn't done anything for this team this year! :wacko:

Crazyhorse
11-21-2006, 02:44 PM
I agree with the player development. This can go a long way in making or breaking a player. Your right about him getting beat in the senior bowl on that one play as he did for one play in the first series. How many times did he get beat after that??? Once he gets his rhythm he is very hard to beat. If he is going to get beat it will be in the first series, Why, don't really know never had a chance to ask him but I would say it's getting his rhythm and getting into the flow of the game. I have never said he is perfect but his up side is huge and that is what this team will need in the long term.
One other note for NUNUSGUY, go back and look at the VT vs. Miami game Eric's senior year (before the senior bowl). The entire game he treats Tapp like a red headed step child!!!!!!!!!!!

Vinny
11-21-2006, 02:45 PM
I saw Winston play several times his sr year and he was awful each time I saw him play....hence his fall from a first round prospect.

kingh99
11-21-2006, 02:47 PM
I'm on Winstons side. He will eventually be much better than Weigert. From what I noticed Sunday, he looked pretty good at run blocking. I think he still needs to work on his feet and hand speed while pass blocking. Of course Salaam's around 50 years old and he still needs to work on quickness, so who knows. I guess it's all in the ability to learn.:dance2:

Winston's a big ole body and he drives hard on the run. I like every guy Kubes picked up this year. He did a hell of a job IMHO with the draft. Can't wait for next year.

Vinny
11-21-2006, 02:48 PM
He better be better than Weigart....Weigart is really a Guard who is playing RT out of position imo.

kingh99
11-21-2006, 02:48 PM
i blame today's secondary struggles on coaches more then talent. i even knew Faggins gets beat deep often. how do i know this? i've seen him play. i think he is a pretty good corner, but he gets beat deep often. i also know lee evans is one of the best deep receivers in the league and he would take faggins if he has the opportunity to run past him. i dont understand why the coaches didnt put robinson on evans to try and take away the deep ball. obviously you would also use some saftey cover, but relying on earl, brown and simmons is not a good idea. you have to know your players, thier strengths and their weaknesses, the coaching staff didnt demonstrate that knowledge today.

I agree with this assessment. We wus out thunk early on. Gary thought he was being cute running back to back reverses to start the game but the other coach was ready with some stuff too. He hit like a lightning bolt before our players had a chance to wipe the sleep from their eyes.

HOU-TEX
11-21-2006, 02:56 PM
He better be better than Weigart....Weigart is really a Guard who is playing RT out of position imo.

You're correct. That's kind of wierd. I guess that goes to show we still lack talent and depth at OT. I'm optimistic that Spencer and Winston can fit the bill. I would still hope we grab some more Oline for competition and depth.:twocents:

wolfscar
11-21-2006, 02:59 PM
What do you reckon to this O-Line next year?
LT - Spencer
LG - Pitts
C - Hodgdon
RG - Weary
RT - Winston

I'm not recommending it, just curious to see what people's thoughts are

Runner
11-21-2006, 03:01 PM
What do you reckon to this O-Line next year?
LT - Winston
LG - Pitts
C - Hodgdon
RG - Weary
RT - Spencer

I'm not recommending it, just curious to see what people's thoughts are


I think Hodgdon is getting very little PT this year, Winston is getting PT because the coaches have been forced to play him, and Spencer will still be a rookie next year.

Unproven, in a word.

Does anyone really think the coaches will play Spencer anywhere but left tackle if healthy?

real
11-21-2006, 03:03 PM
What do you reckon to this O-Line next year?
LT - Winston
LG - Pitts
C - Hodgdon
RG - Weary
RT - Spencer

I'm not recommending it, just curious to see what people's thoughts are

I don't like it...

I'm not sold on Hogdon, and I'd rather have Spencer at left and Winston at Right...

HOU-TEX
11-21-2006, 03:04 PM
What do you reckon to this O-Line next year?
LT - Winston
LG - Pitts
C - Hodgdon
RG - Weary
RT - Spencer

I'm not recommending it, just curious to see what people's thoughts are

If we have the same personnel it might look like that (except Winston and Spencer would be switched). Personally, I'm hoping we at least pick up a couple more OTs. Flanagan will probably go another year or two.:twocents:

wolfscar
11-21-2006, 05:11 PM
I don't like it...

I'm not sold on Hogdon, and I'd rather have Spencer at left and Winston at Right...

I haven't seen much of Hodgdon, but I've not heard many people talk him up. Personally, I'd like to see a solid, experienced guy at Center - someone to anchor the line who's better at the nuts and bolts of the position than McKinney and Flanagan (who looks done to me). Does anyone know who's likely to be available in FA this year?

And Spencer and Winston - that was just a mistake - I meant Spencer left and Winston right.

bah007
12-03-2006, 07:37 PM
I hate to bring this up cuz Winston was just now starting to grow on me.

But he was horrible. He got embarassed on almost every single snap of the game.

I was against picking him in the draft and I have been his biggest critic since then but I was ready to jump on the bandwagon until his performance today.

Maddict5
12-03-2006, 07:40 PM
^agreed- looked out of his depth..you wouldnt mind a bad play or 2 but like you said he was manhandled most of the day- not the answer methinks although its prob a bit too early to give up on him yet

Honoring Earl 34
12-03-2006, 07:43 PM
Winston taste good like a cigarette should . They have something in common besides their name ... their both smoked .

run-david-run
12-03-2006, 08:11 PM
not always a good idea to have a rookie moving to a new position go up against the NFL sack leader last year...

edo783
12-03-2006, 11:28 PM
Typical rook. He has looked good at times and today he looked like a steaming load of road apples. The entire offense never seemed to get in any sort of synch all day.

Runner
12-03-2006, 11:36 PM
Typical rook. He has looked good at times and today he looked like a steaming load of road apples. The entire offense never seemed to get in any sort of synch all day.

I compared Winston to Wand on post 21 of this thread. I pointed out some similarities in their play and development and stated that I thought watching Winston over the next couple of years will tell us some things about the Texans.

Against the Raiders Winston looked as bad or worse than Wand did in any game of 2004. Overall he has been about as effective as Seth was over all his games. How will fans and coaches respond to this? Should he be labeled a bust? I think the coaches should keep trying to develop him next year instead of starting over again - will they?

We'll see if the fans have learned anything and if our new coaches are better at player development next season.

Texans Horror
12-04-2006, 08:36 AM
I hope a stigma is not attached to Winston because of one game lined up against Burgess. Winston made some real mistakes that I think experience would have fixed, but that by no means makes him a bust. He is still a solid pick and will make a great tackle in the NFL, just so long as the Texans give him time to develop. And I think that will be a key difference between this year and past years. Winston will be given time to emerge as a tackle.

nunusguy
12-04-2006, 08:39 AM
I know Charles Spencer, and Eric Winston is no Charles Spencer.

Texan_Bill
12-04-2006, 08:42 AM
:thumbup I know Charles Spencer, and Eric Winston is no Charles Spencer.

:thumbup Very Nice!!

whiskeyrbl
12-04-2006, 08:51 AM
I hope a stigma is not attached to Winston because of one game lined up against Burgess. Winston made some real mistakes that I think experience would have fixed, but that by no means makes him a bust. He is still a solid pick and will make a great tackle in the NFL, just so long as the Texans give him time to develop. And I think that will be a key difference between this year and past years. Winston will be given time to emerge as a tackle.

I agree totally with your post. People need to remember #1 he is a rookie and also coming off a knee injury not to long ago. This and being forced to play due other injuries. This year is a learning and testing year for him. His status as a bust or not will be proven in the next 2 years IMO. It will be based on what he learns this year and what he and his coaches due to correct and improve on the rest of the year and in the offseason, and TC.

Crazyhorse
12-04-2006, 09:26 AM
Before we pass judgement let's realize that most of the sacks they said Winston gave up were not his but Mckinney's for not stepping out and thus leaving Eric with two people to block!! Show me anyone who can block two people and I will sign him up. Our offensive line still is not a solid working unit as a result of injuries and so they haven't worked together enough to know each other well. A good example of what that can do is to look at the Steelers this year. Injuries to their o-line have really hurt them too.
P.S. I know Eric Winston and your right he is not Charlies Spencer, He is Eric Winston and for the long haul I'd have him on my team any day!

Hulk75
12-04-2006, 09:34 AM
I am tired of all of them! Winston needs to grow some arms and quit letting guys into his body, he has to because his arms are so short, move him to gaurd were that kind of stuff does not matter as much.

Who ever missed Burgess on the stunt were Carr was HAMMERED needs to never see the field again, that was a shoot and I am sure Carr had and has a concusion, bunch of idiots.

Somone needs to tell the line you dont pass block with your eyes, I could really take a half blind man and make him a good OLineman, when you start using your eyes and locking on DLineman your going to get in trouble when a stunt comes into play, it is almost like the OLine could care less and are going through the motions, OLine 101 fellas! STUPID STUPID STUPID!

TheOgre
12-04-2006, 09:36 AM
We absolutely need to find a center and I wouldn't be opposed to us drafting another OT.