PDA

View Full Version : O-Line?


fball
09-29-2004, 02:30 PM
Hey guy's, I have noticed these first couple of games, that our offensive line has been manhandled, compared to last year. I haven't went and looked at the stats, jus based off what I've seen so far, Carr has been sacked and hurried much more than last year at this time, and the running game has suffered as well, and I don't know what the setback is all about, maybe it's the new zone blocking scheme, and if so Carr will be always looking over his shoulder until we get this under control! :confused:

NoBullTexan
09-29-2004, 02:46 PM
Hopefully, they are learning on the job, and will start to get it together a little better, starting with Oakland this Sunday. It is also having an adverse effect on their pass blocking, so that needs to get a lot better, in a hurry, or this Sunday will be a long day for us.

bckey
09-29-2004, 05:31 PM
Most people on this board have stated in some form or another that the o-line and d-line are getting pushed around. We won't be drafting a running back in round 1 next year as some suggested in another thread. We should be drafting big uglys.

Pitts may have to go back to lt if this keeps up. The Raiders are strong on both lines so it could be a long day in the trenches.

As far as DD goes I think he is fine. We need him in there. Just open up the playbook and get Carr some time to throw. Start involving the te to keep the safeties honest.

Our front 3 on the dl worry me. They are getting pushed around like rag dolls. Seth Payne doesn't look like he once did. Walker either. Robaire Smith probably is still adjusting to the 3-4.

I think it could be a long year if we can't start winning the battle in the trenches. Palmer and Fangio need to get creative to help em out.

phan1
09-29-2004, 10:09 PM
Well, I wouldn't say that they're worse than last year, but I have to say I see little improvement on the O-line. As for the D-line, I really can't say. We are running a 3-4 D afterall. Maybe some blame should go on the LB's as well?

Carr Bombed
09-30-2004, 01:09 AM
Well, I wouldn't say that they're worse than last year, but I have to say I see little improvement on the O-line. As for the D-line, I really can't say. We are running a 3-4 D afterall. Maybe some blame should go on the LB's as well?

I think they gave up about 36 sacks last year and at this years pace they will easily pass that. I have commited on this before, but I'm really tired of seeing the Oline being so dominated. They better show some improvement this week or oakland is going to dominate this game and its going to be a long game. Oaklands Dline looked pretty impressive in that sunday night game. The thing that makes me mad is that I know our oline can do it. Each time a critical play came they steped it up and made the play, especially on third and long.

pittbull
09-30-2004, 07:47 AM
If you take a look at the Texans line, they are most likely being hurt by the Tackle play. Seth Wand is new to the system, along with Wade. Although Pitts is new on the guard position, this guy is becoming a seasoned veteran and has learned alot of tricks since starting his rookie season. McKinney continues to be a stud. When Davie Franchise is being pressured, it's around the outside of the pocket, which usually allows him time to scramble through the middle for a few yards. BUT, when the guards and center are helping out the tackles, that's when you see the entire pocket colapse and David go down! My opinion, we should have left Pitts where he developed a good flow for the game. Wand at times looks to be overpowered by the NFL rush ends!

infantrycak
09-30-2004, 08:41 AM
As of right now, here is what the OL has done--the penalties below are only false start and holding:

Steve McKinney 0 sacks allowed, 0 penalties--still wouldn't say he has been a stud
Chester Pitts 1 sack allowed, 2 false starts
Zach Wiegert .5 sack allowed, 0 penalties
Fred Weary 0 sacks, 1 false start
Todd Washington 0 sacks, penalties
Seth Wand 2.5 sacks, 1 hold
Todd Wade 2 sacks, 0 penalties

That only accounts for 6 of the 10 sacks given up so far--the others must have been on the RB's or TE's.

BornOrange
09-30-2004, 09:19 AM
As of right now, here is what the OL has done--the penalties below are only false start and holding:

Steve McKinney 0 sacks allowed, 0 penalties--still wouldn't say he has been a stud
Chester Pitts 1 sack allowed, 2 false starts
Zach Wiegert .5 sack allowed, 0 penalties
Fred Weary 0 sacks, 1 false start
Todd Washington 0 sacks, penalties
Seth Wand 2.5 sacks, 1 hold
Todd Wade 2 sacks, 0 penalties

That only accounts for 6 of the 10 sacks given up so far--the others must have been on the RB's or TE's.

Where did you find that information?
Is there a link?

Marcus
09-30-2004, 09:25 AM
Steve McKinney 0 sacks allowed, 0 penalties--still wouldn't say he has been a stud

I've seen misleading statistics before, but that one takes the birthday cake all the way to the house. :~

Chance_C
09-30-2004, 10:07 AM
The pressure has mostly come from the gaps in between the interior lineman. I don't care about the stats, because I have seen the pocket collapse more than I care to this year.

infantrycak
09-30-2004, 10:13 AM
Where did you find that information?
Is there a link?

Sorry, forgot the link--
Stats, Inc. (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/index.asp)

I've seen misleading statistics before, but that one takes the birthday cake all the way to the house.

The pressure up the middle was the source of my comment about not calling McKinney a stud. They may also have a last man responsible rule for crediting sacks, i.e. if McKinney lets someone through but there is a RB in who misses a block they may give the sack to the RB. I would blame the OLmen more but hey. What these stats don't reveal also is that the collapse of the center leads to more sacks credited to the tackles because Carr cannot step up to avoid an edge rusher that the tackles might normally be able to ride out of the play if Carr could just step forward a little.

Chance_C
09-30-2004, 10:29 AM
The oline will definately have their hands full this weekend. I have faith in our coaching staff to have a good gameplan for the task ahead. Of course the running game getting on track would definately help keep the defense honest.

TheOgre
09-30-2004, 10:54 AM
I heard Hollings is ready to practice. Is he expected to be activated for this game?

SBTexans08
09-30-2004, 10:57 AM
He did attend practice and said he felt 100%.

Nawzer
09-30-2004, 01:25 PM
Seth McKinney is good but he isn't all that great.

Vinny
09-30-2004, 01:31 PM
As of right now, here is what the OL has done--the penalties below are only false start and holding:

Steve McKinney 0 sacks allowed, 0 penalties--still wouldn't say he has been a stud
Chester Pitts 1 sack allowed, 2 false starts
Zach Wiegert .5 sack allowed, 0 penalties
Fred Weary 0 sacks, 1 false start
Todd Washington 0 sacks, penalties
Seth Wand 2.5 sacks, 1 hold
Todd Wade 2 sacks, 0 penalties

That only accounts for 6 of the 10 sacks given up so far--the others must have been on the RB's or TE's.
Nice find.

Just by looking at stats one would think that our Tackles are getting hammered on the edge when in reality most of the push is coming from the inside and Carr has no where to step up. He has nowhere to go except to the outside and is being flushed to waiting edge rushers. That is the real problem in our line. The QB has limited opportunities to step UP into the pocket.

sensei
09-30-2004, 01:47 PM
I just finished reviewing my tapes of the K. C. game and I have a Totally different opinion of the line play than some of you.

Most of the problems were in the middle of the line. McKinney had a TERRIBLE game and Weary was worse. Wand and Pitts played decently. Not great but acceptable. I was shocked at how poorly McKinney played. I expected more from him. I don't know their assignments so I just have to go by what I see.

On the D-line: Walker got pushed around quite a bit. Again I expected more from him. Payne just stood his ground, not much more.

Babin seemed to be overly concerned with containment. Maybe that was his assignment. He did contain well but the running backs kept cutting back inside and gaining yards. Maybe the linebackers responsibilities?

I don't like Foreman so it is hard for me to give him the benefit of the doubt, so I will refrain from commenting on him.

Just my observations,

sensei

Jwwillis
09-30-2004, 01:58 PM
I think McKinney had matchup problems last week. Im not a name or stats man but as I recall he was trying to stop one of the premier nose tackles in the league who had him out weighed by 50 plus lbs. He wont draw that kind of assignment every week. Most of Carrs drops have been boot legs and I have noticed he will sometimes scramble into a sack where as If he had trusted his o-line he would have been o.k. I cant say I blame him though because those occasions are more rare than the alternative. O-Line has there work cut out this weekend. Carr better keep his head on a swivle.

MojoX
09-30-2004, 05:50 PM
Nice find.

Just by looking at stats one would think that our Tackles are getting hammered on the edge when in reality most of the push is coming from the inside and Carr has no where to step up. He has nowhere to go except to the outside and is being flushed to waiting edge rushers. That is the real problem in our line. The QB has limited opportunities to step UP into the pocket.
I completely agree with this. Last week was the first game I've seen thus far ( I live in the Bay area and no longer have DirecTV, but at least, since its Oakland, I'll get to see the next game) and I was amazed to see McKinney literally getting tossed around and driven backwards by the KC Dline. And all this time I thought McKinney was a fantastic guy. As for Wand's allowed sack in the KC game, I thought that one was excuseable because Carr started scrambling and ran around Wand so that all the defender had to do was fall backward and lunge at Carr to get the sack.

What I would like to see is a stat showing "QB pressures allowed" or "assignments missed" (the last one may be one only the Texans can accurately record).

MojoX
09-30-2004, 05:52 PM
On the D-line: Walker got pushed around quite a bit. Again I expected more from him. Payne just stood his ground, not much more.
What about Ioane? Everytime I noticed him, he was in the offensive backfield after tossing some KC OL to the side like a rag doll. Did he do well in those instances where it wsn't impossible to miss him?

aj.
09-30-2004, 08:26 PM
McKinney has matchup problems most weeks. He is a relative lightweight and he gets hammered on a regular basis. He is the weak link in the OL IMO (when Wiegert, Pitts, Wade and Wand are in there). When Weary lines up next to Steve it's downright frightening. In other words, I've been seeing some of the same things sensei is seeing for a while now.

JustBonee
09-30-2004, 10:15 PM
While we're on a 'W' theme on the line, why not give Washington a shot at Center when McKinney is getting tossed around. Washington is no lightweight. I thought he filled in well for McKinney last year when needed. I guess others don't feel the same.
The height/weight stats on the roster list lie... McKinney is not 6'4" and over 300 lbs.
Washington is both taller and heavier.
This statement comes from standing beside both and sizing them up ... :thumbup

infantrycak
09-30-2004, 11:15 PM
Sassy, you are not alone. Washington seemed to do a better job at center than he has done at guard. Now that may be that he is just not as much of a step down from McKinney as he is from Weigert.

Chance_C
10-01-2004, 05:03 AM
why not give Washington a shot at Center when McKinney is getting tossed around

The coaches must see something that we don't because it is evidently not an option to them. McKinney and his finesse style are more suited for guard in my opinion. But, the problem is, I don't think he could replace Weigert or Pitts.

Chance_C
10-01-2004, 05:05 AM
I would have also thought that the zone blocking would be a benefit to McKinney. Do you think he is having trouble picking up the system?

sensei
10-01-2004, 12:45 PM
I would have also thought that the zone blocking would be a benefit to McKinney. Do you think he is having trouble picking up the system?

From looking at the tapes it doesn't appear to be that. He is just getting manhandled.

Also It seems most of the damage is being done by the backside pursuit on running plays. I don't know if our guys are just too slow making a decision about where to run or if the bad guys are closing the hole too fast.

On pass plays they are just flat out whipping our butts. They are blowing right through O-line. Like I said before. through Mckinney or Weary.

I just watched the tape again and it is worse and more obvious the second time through.

I think we need to reconsider the center position. Mckinney may be an adequate backup but he is not starter material there.

I hate that as he is a local boy from this area. I see him around here all the time. He is very friendly and always speaks, etc.

sensei

Ibar_Harry
10-02-2004, 02:36 AM
When we got Washington I was very happy, because he came from a SB team and had played Center for them most if not all of the season. When he has played for us he has been a constant plus. Center is his natural position. Again you start scratching your head as to why we our not using him, particularly since he is bigger and taller than McKinney. Wiegert to me is the great mystry. When he plays he seems to be quiet good, but he seems to have all kinds of injury and health problems. I have a gut feeling our O-line would be a whole lot better with these two gentlemen playing. Vinny in affect has stated it very well, if the QB has no pocket to step up and into, then you need a Fran Tarkington, not a David Carr.

BWPaint
10-03-2004, 01:04 AM
I think McKinney had matchup problems last week. Im not a name or stats man but as I recall he was trying to stop one of the premier nose tackles in the league who had him out weighed by 50 plus lbs. He wont draw that kind of assignment every week.

Your definately right .... he won't draw anyone 50 lbs more than him this week....MORE LIKE 150 LBS MORE!

This may be McKinney last game as a starter....he is getting blown away every game this year....he is just horrible. And I hate to say that about a fellow Texas Boy....but he isn't cutting it....he needs to go.

The Texans better concentrate the next draft on Line Help and in a BIG way. It takes too long to develop a decent lineman....if the next 2 drafts have any depth at line coming out....they better draft 4-7 lineman each draft for both sides the ball.

It all starts up front...on both sides the ball. Without better lines....we will be grasping for .500 for the next 5 years!!!

Get with it Caserly.....you best get some lineman in here for the future, or the stadium will not be sold out each of the next few years......the honeymoon is just about over.

jacquescas
10-03-2004, 04:20 AM
I agree, we need lineman in a bad way, unless we pick one up in free agency, which i would rather do for the offensive line, although i believe you dont sign free agent interior lineman because they are too expensive. Jeno James and even Damien Woody as good as they are don't warrant the contracts they got. someone can be drafted and pluged in at a much cheaper price. at Tackle i dont feel bad going after a free agent.

Aussie
10-03-2004, 08:31 AM
exactly McKinney was the only capable lineman all Yr last season.
soo many of you are very impatient to star winning and when we dont you look for a scapegoat??? even DD gets alot of bull**** negative threads bout him?

JustBonee
10-03-2004, 11:12 AM
Sorry guys, couldn't help myself ... had to post .. :rofl:

http://www.uclick.com/feature/04/10/01/ba041001.gif

Marcus
10-03-2004, 11:58 AM
I don't like all this Mckinney hate! No way we would replace him as a starter this early. It's a loyalty thing. Remember....for the last two years...when everybody was sucking and Mckinney was the only reliable lineman we had? Remember?

I thought so

:hehe: :hehe: :hehe:

He is a good lineman, we just need him to stand his ground. He better do it soon.

It's a loyalty thing??

How 'bout 'what have you done for me lately?'. And lately, McKinney ain't doing what Larry the Cable Guy is telling him to do.

texasguy346
10-03-2004, 03:28 PM
I thought the OLine performed pretty well today. They protected Carr pretty well, and provided some running room for Wells. Guess they're finally coming together as a unit, or the coaches spent time working on the problems they had early on.

Marcus
10-03-2004, 03:36 PM
I agree. They played extremely well.

What's more important and more revealing . . . is that that have the talent to do well, and they need some time to jell. . . and they are improving.

Carr had some time to throw today. And I liked what I saw when he had time to throw.