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Texans_Chick
11-09-2006, 09:36 AM
AOL Sports is going to be promoing something about all the NFL teams with poor records in the first half of the season. They asked the bloggers to write about the disappointing seasons and say who is to blame for them.

Anyway, I made a stab at it. And there are some really good comments on it as well.

I focused on the big picture issues as opposed to particular players, mostly because most of the players have been up and down over the course of the season, and the jury is still out.

I also tried to make it fair and realistic.

Anyway, it is a slow time of the week, and it is worth a look if you are interested. There are some good links in it--with some surprises.

Link: Houston Texans: A Still Optimistic 2-6 (http://texans.aolsportsblog.com/2006/11/07/houston-texans-a-still-optimistic-2-6/)

We talk about a lot of this stuff here, but it is kind of nice to memorialize things in blog posts. It's a different sort of history, and it is funny reading old ones sometimes.

Oh, and many of you will recognize the fine gentlemen in the picture. :)

DeclanJr
11-09-2006, 09:40 AM
David Carr, we'd be 3-5 otherwise...

Texans_Chick
11-09-2006, 09:43 AM
David Carr, we'd be 3-5 otherwise...

And the Bears would be undefeated without Rex Grossman?

You can't eliminate Carr's poor performances without including his good ones. To be fair, we don't know how much better or worse the team would be with Rosenfels as the starter.

DeclanJr
11-09-2006, 09:55 AM
I'd like to find out...That isn't the only game he played bad in, but I'm putting that loss squarely on his shoulders. When you are throwing 20+ times for 187 yards, something is wrong. Coach K has designed this offense so that Carr can dink and dunk it down the field, and if that is taken away from him he throws picks and gets sacked...I'm all for putting in Rosenfels, but that is just where we disagree. Let's see how good he looks this week against a motivated Jacksonville team.

Errant Hothy
11-09-2006, 09:59 AM
David Carr, we'd be 3-5 otherwise...

3-5...2-6...When you're rebuilding, which there should be no doubt that we are, is threre really much difference.

Using your logic we could say that without Cook we'd be 3-5. With Spencer still healty we just might be 4-3. With J. Christ at Rb we;d no doubt be 8-0 and the most feared team in the NFL.

We are what we are, a bad team that is making significant progress towards being better.

Mr. White
11-09-2006, 10:12 AM
Oh, and many of you will recognize the fine gentlemen in the picture. :)

Can't say I've had the pleasure. Who is it?

Anybody that impales Oilers paraphernalia is a friend of mine.

TexansSeminole
11-09-2006, 10:14 AM
Alot of things. Our poor defensive play in the beginning of the season, Carr's turnovers, Cook's turnover, etc etc etc.

phan1
11-09-2006, 10:16 AM
We obviously needed time to "warm up". The past 3 games we've played has got to make you believe that we can really hang with anybody. The defense was the big problem early in the season. It was just gawd-awful, but I think we fixed that. As for our offense, well... It's been typical Texan offense. Either you're hot or you're not. Everything taken into account, we really just started off the season with no fight in our belly. Now, it looks like we are actually out there trying to win games instead of going out there expecting to be slaughtered.

Texans_Chick
11-09-2006, 10:17 AM
Alot of things. Our poor defensive play in the beginning of the season, Carr's turnovers, Cook's turnover, etc etc etc.

Those are the micro things.

A lack of consistency. And learning new stuff. To me, a lot of that is either learning a new system, playing a lot of rookies, learning to play together as a team, and/or just bad breaks.

In my column, I talk more about the macro things. The big picture things.

wrestler4life
11-09-2006, 10:21 AM
With J. Christ at Rb we;d no doubt be 8-0 and the most feared team in the NFL.

Hilarious, but true!

TxAg
11-09-2006, 10:24 AM
You guys are going to see something unexpected this year,the Texans are making huge progress on defense and our offense can turn into a great one as we have one of the best WR in the league I just thing they need to put there faith on one back GADO and we could really cause some damage.I also think that Carr being benched two weeks ago woke him up, Kubiak wants to win and Carr knows he could loose his starting role if he slacks off.:shades:

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 10:40 AM
And the Bears would be undefeated without Rex Grossman?

You can't eliminate Carr's poor performances without including his good ones. To be fair, we don't know how much better or worse the team would be with Rosenfels as the starter.

I'm happy for David's improvements, and expect to see more to come, but which good ones are you talking about??

70% completion for 220 yards........... yawn.....

Any other QB in this league would be closer to 400 yards on 70% completion. with many more TDs to show for it.

while I don't put the blame for any one of our losses squarely on David's shoulders, I find it hard to believe we wouldn't have more wins if we had better play out of the QB position.

Same goes for the OL, same for the RBs, same for the defense.

But if any QB performed worse than ours, I doubt he'd still be playing at this point in the season.

Not saying that David should be sitting down, but that his good..... is everybody else's avg.

Big J
11-09-2006, 10:55 AM
Please dont ever compare David Carr to Rex Grossman...the guy is straight garbage. David Carr is for sure better than Rex.

ib4texans
11-09-2006, 10:57 AM
I'm happy for David's improvements, and expect to see more to come, but which good ones are you talking about??

70% completion for 220 yards........... yawn.....

Any other QB in this league would be closer to 400 yards on 70% completion. with many more TDs to show for it.

while I don't put the blame for any one of our losses squarely on David's shoulders, I find it hard to believe we wouldn't have more wins if we had better play out of the QB position.

Same goes for the OL, same for the RBs, same for the defense.

But if any QB performed worse than ours, I doubt he'd still be playing at this point in the season.

Not saying that David should be sitting down, but that his good..... is everybody else's avg.

Maybe Carr would not be average if the offense did not have to be designed for the 1.5 second release that he was forced into from lack of protection. Now that the protection is there they are stretching the plays to find out what max protection might be, you don't just expect a Texan line to protect long enough for the 40,50,60 yard deep threat. They may get there but people please, would you want to stand back there waiting for your receivers to get down field?

Runner
11-09-2006, 11:00 AM
I would say the biggest macro problem we have had since our inception has been the development/deployment of available talent. We have done this very, very poorly. It apears the new staff is reversing that trend.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 11:03 AM
Maybe Carr would not be average if the offense did not have to be designed for the 1.5 second release that he was forced into from lack of protection. Now that the protection is there they are stretching the plays to find out what max protection might be, you don't just expect a Texan line to protect long enough for the 40,50,60 yard deep threat. They may get there but people please, would you want to stand back there waiting for your receivers to get down field?

After 4 years of starting behind the worse line in the history of the NFL, I can guarantee you two things.

I would be the most nimble QB in the league... & the most adept at avoiding sacks.

& I would have hands of steel.... I would never lose a fumble...... it might be stripped as I'm throwing the ball, but you could run me over with a mack truck, and I would be holding the ball in my cold dead hands.

I agree David has had issues to deal with, that he had no control over. But there are things he could control, and he should be better at controlling those things better than any QB in the league right now.

Wharton
11-09-2006, 11:06 AM
Good article. I thought it was spot on.

ArlingtonTexan
11-09-2006, 11:10 AM
In the texans case, I don't think there is anyone to blame (well not currently employed by the organization). Unfortunately, based on overall talent, 2-6 is probably right on schedule. Think this is 5-11, maybe 6-10 football team.

HJam72
11-09-2006, 11:17 AM
Why do some people keep bringing up Gado? I don't get it.

TheOgre
11-09-2006, 11:34 AM
Good macro view of the issues, Steph.

The biggest deficiency(ies) on this team at the end of last year was the lack of talent in the trenches. I think we made some strides in that direction, but still have work to do.

Marcus
11-09-2006, 11:34 AM
Post deleted.

Hulk75
11-09-2006, 11:37 AM
Everything is going to be allright!

It is not like we are getting blown out, remeber last year!

How many of you would have taken this year over last year, just competing wise, and There is a lot of improvement from Carr, Kubiak will straighten him out and we will get our BIG TIME running back and we will be fine.

It is nice to see that we dont need to draft in every single possition this year. Right now as it stands to me, we need a Plowing Gaurd, Saftey, another Backer (BRIGGS) to go along with Ryans, they will both make each other better, A RB!!!!!!!.

Texans_Chick
11-09-2006, 11:38 AM
After 4 years of starting behind the worse line in the history of the NFL, I can guarantee you two things.

I would be the most nimble QB in the league... & the most adept at avoiding sacks.

& I would have hands of steel.... I would never lose a fumble...... it might be stripped as I'm throwing the ball, but you could run me over with a mack truck, and I would be holding the ball in my cold dead hands.

I agree David has had issues to deal with, that he had no control over. But there are things he could control, and he should be better at controlling those things better than any QB in the league right now.


Tkyss.

Do you talk about anything other than the QB position?

I do not believe that your posts are realistic about the QB position. This post. Your previous posts in this thread. Etc.

The Texans have played the 2nd hardest schedule in the league, with mostly no running game and learning a new scheme on offense that by most accounts is supposed to be a pretty complicated one.

One moment you say he has played such that he should be benched, and the next moment you say you wouldn't bench him.

Honestly I don't understand a lot of what you are trying to say.

Any other QB in this league would be closer to 400 yards on 70% completion. with many more TDs to show for it.

while I don't put the blame for any one of our losses squarely on David's shoulders, I find it hard to believe we wouldn't have more wins if we had better play out of the QB position.

Same goes for the OL, same for the RBs, same for the defense.

But if any QB performed worse than ours, I doubt he'd still be playing at this point in the season.

Not saying that David should be sitting down, but that his good..... is everybody else's avg.


Paragraph 1: On THIS team? With our schedule? Learning a new scheme?

Paragraph 2 & 3: Well duh. Do you have any magic pixie dust that can make everyone improve instantly. Yes, the Texans would be a better team if all the Indianapolis Colts players were playing here instead. Yes, individuals need to be playing better, and all at the same time.

Paragraph 4: That is dog crud. See e.g. Plummer. Better team around him, better experience with the scheme, has a running game. (Compare his stats to DCs, especially looking at attempts.)

Paragraph 5: I'm just saying there is no way you can pencil Sage the wins that DC had because we will never know. I know that Kubiak believes DC can get better, he has gotten better, and I don't think anyone is arguing that the play in the QB position has been spectacular.

Kaiser Toro
11-09-2006, 11:41 AM
I would say the biggest macro problem we have had since our inception has been the development/deployment of available talent. We have done this very, very poorly. It apears the new staff is reversing that trend.

And the acquisition of "talent" and the salaries they "earned."

QB75
11-09-2006, 11:42 AM
David Carr, we'd be 3-5 otherwise...

David Carr is to blame? Wrong.

Who's to blame? 1) Charley Casserly for years of poor draft picks and trades, and 2) Dom Capers for years of zero focus on developing David Carr with an experienced backup or a top fight QB coach. Period.

The Texans are closer to a first year franchise than a fifth because so little was done during the first four years. With that said, sit back and watch the second half of the season. Our team is playing better and the competition is weaker. It's going to be a nice turn of events.

Hulk75
11-09-2006, 11:43 AM
Tkyss.

Do you talk about anything other than the QB position?

I do not believe that your posts are realistic about the QB position. This post. Your previous posts in this thread. Etc.

The Texans have played the 2nd hardest schedule in the league, with mostly no running game and learning a new scheme on offense that by most accounts is supposed to be a pretty complicated one.

One moment you say he has played such that he should be benched, and the next moment you say you wouldn't bench him.

Honestly I don't understand a lot of what you are trying to say.




Paragraph 1: On THIS team? With our schedule? Learning a new scheme?

Paragraph 2 & 3: Well duh. Do you have any magic pixie dust that can make everyone improve instantly. Yes, the Texans would be a better team if all the Indianapolis Colts players were playing here instead. Yes, individuals need to be playing better, and all at the same time.

Paragraph 4: That is dog crud. See e.g. Plummer. Better team around him, better experience with the scheme, has a running game. (Compare his stats to DCs, especially looking at attempts.)

Paragraph 5: I'm just saying there is no way you can pencil Sage the wins that DC had because we will never know. I know that Kubiak believes DC can get better, he has gotten better, and I don't think anyone is arguing that the play in the QB position has been spectacular.

I said it before and I will say it again the guy talks out of both side of his mouth...........I dont try to understand him!

ib4texans
11-09-2006, 12:00 PM
I agree, last year we were getting blown out. I think that the "Great Defensive Mind" Dom Capers blew it when he destroyed our defense last year. Jamie Sharper, Aaron Glenn then Marcus Coleman. We have great guys now but with that veteran leadership it and ability it would have worked better. I don't remember the Texan defense stinking it up as much as last year.

If you want to bash Carr so be it, but find me another QB that starts his first game on an expansion team and wins against a great rival and continues on to set the record for most sacks in a single season. He has been there for the organization and I think the fans should recognize he wants to be a winner!

prostock101
11-09-2006, 12:15 PM
Blame? I suppose you could hang the Capers/Casserly duo for their poor performance. I really felt going into this season that it was a complete restart not unlike a new franchise and my only expectations were to see progress. Well, I've seen great progress and I'm please with the direction that Kubiak has the team in. Could we be better than 2-6 at this point? Some fans don't seem to realize that losing just one or two of your standout players on either side of the ball can make a huge difference. For example, add a healthy Dom Davis, Spencer, and Mathis to the offense and maybe we're 4-4. Or say we lost Ryans and Robinson in preseason to injuries. We might be 0-8. It's just a very fine line that all teams have to deal with and the loss of any playmaker makes a huge difference. Note Kubiak's lament at the early loss of Spencer. He knows what a difference one player can have.

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 12:21 PM
I agree, last year we were getting blown out. I think that the "Great Defensive Mind" Dom Capers blew it when he destroyed our defense last year. Jamie Sharper, Aaron Glenn then Marcus Coleman. We have great guys now but with that veteran leadership it and ability it would have worked better. I don't remember the Texan defense stinking it up as much as last year.

If you want to bash Carr so be it, but find me another QB that starts his first game on an expansion team and wins against a great rival and continues on to set the record for most sacks in a single season. He has been there for the organization and I think the fans should recognize he wants to be a winner!

Loved Sharper and Glenn. Coleman, not so much but it would be nice to see that mixture of vets with the young guys 'Meco and Williams... Sharper would have to move to the Outside though because I like Ryans in the middle.

Fran Tarkington - 1961 v. Chicago Bears....

infantrycak
11-09-2006, 12:30 PM
Sharper would have to move to the Outside though because I like Ryans in the middle..

Which is where Sharper won a SB ring with the Ravens.

ib4texans
11-09-2006, 12:41 PM
Which is where Sharper won a SB ring with the Ravens.

The point is that you agree that our defense took a huge blow in losing those established players who had up to that point provided a defense that was keeping us in games.

This defense now has the makings to be even better,but oh the wait would have been shorter with some of those guys around to bring it along.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 12:46 PM
Tkyss.


One moment you say he has played such that he should be benched, and the next moment you say you wouldn't bench him.

Honestly I don't understand a lot of what you are trying to say.

I said I wouldn't have benched him in the Tennessee game. I've also stated that David is & should be the starter, because Kubiak is treating him more or less like a rookie prospect signed to be our future. So regardless if the fans(me, myself, & I) think we have a better QB on the bench, or that it is time to move on....... David will get the start.

I don't like David, I think I've been pretty consistent about that. I do believe he is playing better than he did last year....... I think I've been pretty honest about that.

Paragraph 1: On THIS team? With our schedule? Learning a new scheme?

Yes...... not all of the bad play that I'm talking about concern learning, or scheming.

Protecting the ball is fundamental, and something he should have learned 5 years ago, and you shouldn't need a HOF coach to tell you. Indy, Washington, and Tennesse..... David gave them the ball by not holding onto it. Warner is sitting down right now, for the same reason on a team that is just as bad. Nobody is talking about new schemes & OL gelling.



Paragraph 2 & 3: Well duh. Do you have any magic pixie dust that can make everyone improve instantly. Yes, the Texans would be a better team if all the Indianapolis Colts players were playing here instead. Yes, individuals need to be playing better, and all at the same time.

Right there, I'm just saying that I'm just saying through my hatred of David, I can still see many reasons why we are losing games....... i.e. it's not David's fault. I think we are on the same side of this argument.

Paragraph 4: That is dog crud. See e.g. Plummer. Better team around him, better experience with the scheme, has a running game. (Compare his stats to DCs, especially looking at attempts.)

I wish I could say Jake has been playing worse than Carr. He's definitely playing worse than he did last year, but this year I'd say he is playing at about the same level(effectiveness of David) except he's really turned it on in the last two games, and David is still giving us the same blah..

Jake is avg completion is for 11.8 yards per completion. if he completed 70% of his passess(217 x 0.7=151) he'd have 1,792 passing yards right now, that's all I'm saying about that.

Paragraph 5: I'm just saying there is no way you can pencil Sage the wins that DC had because we will never know. I know that Kubiak believes DC can get better, he has gotten better, and I don't think anyone is arguing that the play in the QB position has been spectacular.

you're right, we don't know.... and it's just speculation.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 12:50 PM
I said it before and I will say it again the guy talks out of both side of his mouth...........I dont try to understand him!

I've said David is improving......

I've said David is playing better than I expected to see him play this year....

I've said that Kubiak said David is our starter, and Sage is a backup, and as such, it doesn't make sense to start Sage with the first team in the preseason just to see if he is better/worse than David.......

I've also said David has screwed up..........

I've said David is repeating some of his old mistakes....

I've said David was at the butt end of a turnover in 5 out of our first 7 games.....

If talking out of both sides of my mouth mean that I'm completely objective about David Carr, all I can say is Thankyou...... I am trying. I don't believe I've reached complete objectivity yet, but I'm trying.

infantrycak
11-09-2006, 12:53 PM
The point is that you agree that our defense took a huge blow in losing those established players who had up to that point provided a defense that was keeping us in games.

This defense now has the makings to be even better,but oh the wait would have been shorter with some of those guys around to bring it along.

I thought Sharper's performance had dropped off considerably. Coupled with injury concerns and a huge cap number I understood the Texans letting him go if they couldn't renegotiate his contract. Hindsight in particular shows that judgment was correct as he missed half of the next season with a knee injury and is now out of football.

I thought it was a mistake to let Aaron Glenn go particularly without trying to renegotiate his contract but either way IMO he should have been kept. He clearly demonstrated the leadership and mentoring on the sidelines that people assume all veterans contribute when clearly not everyone does. Pretty telling that he has contributed to a much better D since leaving here.

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Who is to blame for this team sitting at 2-6? The blame can spread around from the previous coaching staff and general manager due to lack of talent on the squad because of poor personnel decisions, to the current coaching staff, and the players that have played for the Texans thus far this year. Might as well through in the Captian of the boat too, Mr. McNair because he is the ultimate decision maker since day 1. Bottom line, almost everyone in this organization, past and present, has their hands in this one way or another, more than likely that is.

Where we are now? It seems is very clear the defense is playing way better than the first three games of the season, that it is absolutely amazing considering how they started off and the talent they have in personnel. Meanwhile, the offense is just about the same as it has always been going back to the very beginning with Doom Capers.

The last two games were lost because the offense couldn't score points or come up with meaningful drives in the clutch, which has been an issue for some time now.

I am truely amazed out how many people laid the blame of the first three losses on the defense and then don't come to their side when the offense doesn't pull it's end of the bargain when the defense plays great.

This offense averages about 16 points a game, and is lucky to get 10 points by the first half at home or 7 points on the road. In addition, they only get about 200 yards passing and 90 yards rushing in a game. That is with the offensive minds of Kubiak and Sherman with great talent like David Carr and Andre Johnson, or so I am led to believe. How much longer is it going to take for me to see something that shows this offense can have some real offensive explosion?

I am tired of hearing excuses for the offense and that I should be more patient.

If the defense was still getting torched like the first three games, people would be asking for heads to roll immediately. Meanwhile the offense is still so slow and predictable and can't run the 2-minute drill or score points quickly.

The biggest part of the game right now holding the Texans is the offense. Scoring points is what wins in this league, and defenses will be glad to let an offense have a 100 QB passer rating in a game and let one receiver have over 100 yards if it means the offense only scores 17 or so points. That is the Texans in a nutshell and defenses are giving them certain things becuase the Texans are not willing to expose anything else. The Texans offense is risk averse. We don't need an $8 million QB and an $8 million WR for an offense like that? Not to mention what is the point of having Kubiak, the offensive guru then too?

Also, I am tired of hearing this offensive line excuse. There are 32 teams in the league, so the talent is spread very thin for everyone in the league, no one is stacking up on talent at position in the NFL. That is where skill positions come in and coaching, which is why the head coach and QB are so important. A great head coach and QB can make a marginal offensive line look great.

My patience for this offense is running very thin because I continue hear they need more time and talent. Look around, there are some teams that weren't so good last year, and they are at .500 or better.

You get what you expect.

I am beginning to really understand why Buddy Ryan went lights out on Kevin Gilbride.

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 12:53 PM
Which is where Sharper won a SB ring with the Ravens.

Correct... I should have said "move back to Outside"

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 12:57 PM
1) I don't like David,

2) Protecting the ball is fundamental, and something he should have learned 5 years ago, and you shouldn't need a HOF coach to tell you.

1) What a shocker..... Ya think?

2) It took Moon several years to figure it out..... Last residency Canton Ohio...

ib4texans
11-09-2006, 12:58 PM
I wish I could say Jake has been playing worse than Carr. He's definitely playing worse than he did last year, but this year I'd say he is playing at about the same level(effectiveness of David) except he's really turned it on in the last two games, and David is still giving us the same blah..

Jake is avg completion is for 11.8 yards per completion. if he completed 70% of his passess(217 x 0.7=151) he'd have 1,792 passing yards right now, that's all I'm saying about that.

Jake Plummer Game1:138 YDS
Game2:173 YDS
Game3:256 YDS
Game4:106 YDS
Game5:102 YDS
Game6:209 YDS
Game7:174 YDS
Game8:227 YDS

If he completed 70% he would have 1,792, but I guess he's not David Carr. Because if he was David Carr you would be down on him for the 5 games less than 200 yard passing. Talk about boring.

Runner
11-09-2006, 01:02 PM
And the acquisition of "talent" and the salaries they "earned."

I agree that we have a poor record in the price/performance ratio of our players. I think the performance area could have risen with many of the players to make them more in line with their salaries given suitable coaching, scheming, etc. However, there would still have been a few players that would have been over paid even with good coaching.

We previously didn't get good bang for our lower salaried players previously either. Ryans, Daniels, (Spencer woulda shoulda) are examples of this.

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 01:04 PM
It took Moon several years to figure it out..... Last residency Canton Ohio...

There is no comparison of Moon and Carr.

Live that one alone.

infantrycak
11-09-2006, 01:05 PM
Jake is avg completion is for 11.8 yards per completion. if he completed 70% of his passess(217 x 0.7=151) he'd have 1,792 passing yards right now, that's all I'm saying about that.

Nice abuse of poor little "if."

If he had thrown 7 less INT's he'd have none.
If he had thrown 9 more TD's he'd have just as many as Peyton.

Vinny
11-09-2006, 01:10 PM
I agree, last year we were getting blown out. I think that the "Great Defensive Mind" Dom Capers blew it when he destroyed our defense last year. Jamie Sharper, Aaron Glenn then Marcus Coleman. We have great guys now but with that veteran leadership it and ability it would have worked better. I don't remember the Texan defense stinking it up as much as last year.
Getting rid of players in decline wasn't the problem. Coleman and Sharper have one game started combined in 2006. Our inability to replace good players in decline with equal or better talent is the problem.

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 01:27 PM
There is no comparison of Moon and Carr.

Live that one alone.

Why should I live that one alone? The discussion was about turnovers:

Warren Moon Regular Season Stats
FUMBLES
Year AGE Team TOT OWR OPR YDS TD
1984 27 HOO 17 7 0 -1 0
1985 28 HOO 12 5 0 -8 0
1986 29 HOO 11 3 0 -4 0
1987 30 HOO 8 6 0 -7 0
1988 31 HOO 8 4 0 -12 0


Most Fumbles, Career
160 Warren Moon, Houston, 1984-93

Most Fumbles, Season
21 Tony Banks, St. Louis, 1996
18 Dave Krieg, Seattle, 1989
Warren Moon, Houston, 1990

edo783
11-09-2006, 01:38 PM
The root cause lays solidly on Casserly and Capers. They were unable to draft anywhere near well, never actually addressed the O-line, could not develope a player to save their collective butts and continually over paid vets and gave them long contracts.

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 01:43 PM
Why should I live that one alone? The discussion was about turnovers:

Warren Moon Regular Season Stats
FUMBLES
Year AGE Team TOT OWR OPR YDS TD
1984 27 HOO 17 7 0 -1 0
1985 28 HOO 12 5 0 -8 0
1986 29 HOO 11 3 0 -4 0
1987 30 HOO 8 6 0 -7 0
1988 31 HOO 8 4 0 -12 0


Most Fumbles, Career
160 Warren Moon, Houston, 1984-93

Most Fumbles, Season
21 Tony Banks, St. Louis, 1996
18 Dave Krieg, Seattle, 1989
Warren Moon, Houston, 1990

I took your comparison that Carr is on his way to the Hall of Fame.

If I played in the NFL, I would probably fumble and get sacked a lot too, does that make me like Moon? No it doesn't.

You are taking one piece of the puzzle and not looking at other things.

There are some players that consistently make big mistakes but the net, net of them being on the field is more important because they can carry the team to victory.

I call it the Favre effect. Brett Favre at the hieght of his career would make some pretty big mistakes, but you knew there was a good chance he could dig out of any hole he dug for himself into.

Another way to look at is getting upset with a QB that losses the game on one bad play but it is their good play that puts the team in the position to win. Carr's good plays are not enough for the offense to score enough points for the Texans to win on offense alone.

In addition, David Carr hasn't proved he can dig himself out of a hole. Carr needs the defense to play well and he has to have zero mistakes so that maybe they can sniff around the 4th quarter and maybe, just maybe win a game, but most times they can't do it, particularly on the road.

Texans_Chick
11-09-2006, 01:52 PM
Getting rid of players in decline wasn't the problem. Coleman and Sharper have one game started combined in 2006. Our inability to replace good players in decline with equal or better talent is the problem.

Ding ding ding, give Vinny a cigar.

And growing your own talent. Being committed to them in a particular philosophy, instead of patchworking a scheme and hoping it works.

We have young players. We have oldish players. We have few developed players who should be approaching the prime of their careers. Most of those guys progress was hindered by their coaching/scheme.

Do you think it helped Andre Johnson running last year's offensive scheme? Or having no quality veteran mentors?

Or David Carr's QB coaching situation?

Or Chester Pitts playing all sorts of positions? And having to relearn technique stuff that was taught wrong in the first place. It isn't a surprise that he is the best linemen for the Texans right now. We've grown him, and the rest are youngin and oldums and pickups.

Or all those players like Weary and Wand who were sat last year, even while it was obvious the team was in a free fall.

Meloy
11-09-2006, 01:52 PM
I expect to see a good effort from Carr AND the rest of team against Jags. If not, each deserves any criticism he gets. But each should be recognised for good effort. A win may be a win , but I don't like them sloppy. I'm looking for consistency on O & D accompanied by a decent running game. I want to see receivers beating one on ones. My view.

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 01:53 PM
I in no way was comparing HOF status.. But whats interesting is that Moon had more fumbles than Carr and other stats are eerily similar at the same points in their respective careers. Lest we forget Moon had 4 or 5 years in the CFL (more like a finishing school than pro bowl) to develop further than a 22 year old rookie

Moon was horrible in his first five years. We all try to remember his career with rose colored glasses, but if you are realistic, you will remember how bad he was, and how the fans boooed him merciless in the Dome.

But what happened? The Oilers stuck with him, built an O-line, got some Running backs, receivers and brought in a new system (a hybrid of the run-n-shoot) the "Red Gun".....

The jury is out on Carr for sure, but he can still succeed.....

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 02:03 PM
Jake Plummer Game1:138 YDS vs STLouis
Game2:173 YDS vs KC
Game3:256 YDS vs NE
Game4:106 YDS vs Bal
Game5:102 YDS vs Oak
Game6:209 YDS vs Cle
Game7:174 YDS vs Ind
Game8:227 YDS vs Pitt

If he completed 70% he would have 1,792, but I guess he's not David Carr. Because if he was David Carr you would be down on him for the 5 games less than 200 yard passing. Talk about boring.

I'm not up on JakePlummer. I am saying he's been playing poorly. Just like I would say if David turned the ball over iin 5 of 8 games this year.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 02:11 PM
Nice abuse of poor little "if."

If he had thrown 7 less INT's he'd have none.
If he had thrown 9 more TD's he'd have just as many as Peyton.

all I'm saying is that 70% completion in and of itself is not a big enough stat to say that a particular QB is playing well.

Just like saying a reciever with 38 catches over a 6 game period tells us nothing about how well that reciever is doing.

70% completion plus a bunch of yards would be nice.

70% completion plus a bunch of turnovers........ not so nice.

whiskeyrbl
11-09-2006, 02:14 PM
I have to say it is on the last regime. Poor drafting and poor FA moves over a 4 year span. That along with bad coaching and teaching to the players we have had.Hopefully in the next couple of years we will be contenders, I say a couple because I don't think the ship can be corrected in 1. Although they are making large strides this year it is not showing in the win column.:challenge

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 02:37 PM
Yeah but one thing about moon is that he was able to throw deep to his wide recievers.

Very good point with regard to comparing Carr to Moon. It just doesn't fit.

My concern about Carr is that since day one, this offense has been slow and predictable. That really hasn't changed after all these years.

The offense still hasn't run the 2-minute drill yet this year and we have two offensive guru's in Kubiak and Sherman.

Every team is thin on talent at certain positions, particularly on offensive line because there are so many teams in the league. That is why you need skill positions to perform amazing and great coaching to put you over the top. So I think the arguement that David needs more help is a little overrated. He should be doing a lot better with what it already has.

Also, making big plays are more important than making mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, but not everyone makes big plays.

I just haven't seen Carr make big plays, and even inconsistently at that.

Carr's best game is no mistakes and hope the defense keeps it close and maybe win a game. Does that sound famaliar?

Hookem Horns
11-09-2006, 02:39 PM
David Carr :shades:

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 02:41 PM
Yeah but one thing about moon is that he was able to throw deep to his wide recievers.

Not so much his first 4 or 5 seasons because he spent a lot of time on his back as the O-line was developing or he was busy recovering fumbles BUT very true in the years following.

El Tejano
11-09-2006, 02:48 PM
It's the secondary's fault. 2 INTs in 8 games. I know we want to blame the pass rush and stuff but there is a better pass rush these days and WRs are still wide open on 3rd and 15.

Vinny
11-09-2006, 03:03 PM
I in no way was comparing HOF status.. But whats interesting is that Moon had more fumbles than Carr and other stats are eerily similar at the same points in their respective careers. Lest we forget Moon had 4 or 5 years in the CFL (more like a finishing school than pro bowl) to develop further than a 22 year old rookie

Moon was horrible in his first five years. We all try to remember his career with rose colored glasses, but if you are realistic, you will remember how bad he was, and how the fans boooed him merciless in the Dome.

But what happened? The Oilers stuck with him, built an O-line, got some Running backs, receivers and brought in a new system (a hybrid of the run-n-shoot) the "Red Gun".....

The jury is out on Carr for sure, but he can still succeed.....
That's revisionist history...Moon was not "horrible" in his first five years here. Sure, like almost every single QB ever he had some rough moments early in his NFL career...but some of this stuff pimping Carr by trying to ridicule HOF QB's like Moon is just ridiculous. Warren Moon is a horrid comparison to Carr since he routinely made big plays even though he would fumble the ball or thew some picks (Moon knew how to challenge a defense down the field). Carr doesn't have near his game and I saw both QB's play every single game ever in Columbia blue and in Steel blue. The game was different then and look up all the great QB stats of his era from the 70's to the early 80's....they threw down field more often and passer % wasn't high like it is now with the short passing game. Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Moon, Bradshaw...you name em, their raw stats didn't look as good as Carr's.....but they were throwing the deep ball and they made big plays in clutch situations.....you can't see that by just reviewing stat lines. Sure, the run and shoot made Moon's stat line jump, but it was Moon more than the RnS....Bob Gagliano couldn't make the RnS work up in Detroit with Mouse Davis. Moon was a hell of a QB. Moon made players around him better...something Carr doesn't do. He did it in Canada, here, in Minnesota and all thru his career. Borderline journeymen guys like Heywood Jeffries probably benefited most from Moon's great passing abilities. All of you guys that keep comparing Carr to hall of famers just look so ridiculous to me...I don't understand it myself.

TexansLucky13
11-09-2006, 03:10 PM
Blaming the record on David Carr represents both ignorance and a general lack of understanding of the game of football.

That said, I agree with whiskey on this one. Our last regime is to blame. You know what I like the most about Kubiak? He knows exactly what he is doing, and he shows it. We needed someone who had enough cojones to deal with the problems that this team has.

Kubiak is the answer.

ib4texans
11-09-2006, 03:28 PM
Ok let us look at "Dallas" no way that Sage is winning that game. No run game at all,who try's to pick up the slack with "big plays" David. I wonder if the Cowboys were expecting a pass play with a run game like that.

"Jacksonville" defense puts us in position to win offense executes and "W"

"Titans" Carr turns it over, yet he is hit from the blind side. No protection. Pull him and put Sage in, all of the sudden there are no "sacks" he's hardly even hurried.

"NYG" The return of the poor running game,unless you count Carr's rushing TD. Defense plays well,but no turnovers. Oh and let's not leave Kris Brown our PK who missid from what 38 yards?

Geez!! Who's fault is it? I don't think I have enough fingers to point. It is nobody's fault, we have already tied last seasons record,and have the potential if not with the "Jaguars" then with the "Bills" to start 4-5 game winning streek. "Nuff said"

The Pencil Neck
11-09-2006, 03:59 PM
Ok let us look at "Dallas" no way that Sage is winning that game. No run game at all,who try's to pick up the slack with "big plays" David. I wonder if the Cowboys were expecting a pass play with a run game like that.

"Jacksonville" defense puts us in position to win offense executes and "W"

"Titans" Carr turns it over, yet he is hit from the blind side. No protection. Pull him and put Sage in, all of the sudden there are no "sacks" he's hardly even hurried.

"NYG" The return of the poor running game,unless you count Carr's rushing TD. Defense plays well,but no turnovers. Oh and let's not leave Kris Brown our PK who missid from what 38 yards?

Geez!! Who's fault is it? I don't think I have enough fingers to point. It is nobody's fault, we have already tied last seasons record,and have the potential if not with the "Jaguars" then with the "Bills" to start 4-5 game winning streek. "Nuff said"

This is why I say (and have said) we're just a bad team. Until we can start putting everything together consistently, we're going to continue to be a bad team. I think that right this second, we have the pieces to be a decent team but we just haven't put them together. Now, some people blame that on leadership and that's why the point to Carr because they believe it's on the QB to provide that leadership. I don't believe that. I think we're just not good, yet. Hopefully, over the next few weeks, we'll start making the plays that will turn us from bad to at least not so bad.

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 04:02 PM
That's revisionist history...Moon was not "horrible" in his first five years here. Sure, like almost every single QB ever he had some rough moments early in his NFL career...but some of this stuff pimping Carr by trying to ridicule HOF QB's like Moon is just ridiculous. Warren Moon is a horrid comparison to Carr since he routinely made big plays even though he would fumble the ball or thew some picks (Moon knew how to challenge a defense down the field). Carr doesn't have near his game and I saw both QB's play every single game ever in Columbia blue and in Steel blue. The game was different then and look up all the great QB stats of his era from the 70's to the early 80's....they threw down field more often and passer % wasn't high like it is now with the short passing game. Joe Namath, Ken Stabler, Moon, Bradshaw...you name em, their raw stats didn't look as good as Carr's.....but they were throwing the deep ball and they made big plays in clutch situations.....you can't see that by just reviewing stat lines. Sure, the run and shoot made Moon's stat line jump, but it was Moon more than the RnS....Bob Gagliano couldn't make the RnS work up in Detroit with Mouse Davis. Moon was a hell of a QB. Moon made players around him better...something Carr doesn't do. He did it in Canada, here, in Minnesota and all thru his career. Borderline journeymen guys like Heywood Jeffries probably benefited most from Moon's great passing abilities. All of you guys that keep comparing Carr to hall of famers just look so ridiculous to me...I don't understand it myself.

First, I wish you would read, comprehend and not lock in one satement....I never pimped Carr by ridiculing Moon, that statement was ludicrous.... I am not knocking Moon at all, loved the guy and went to his induction to the NFL Quarterback's Club HOF at the Intercontinental hotel (sat next to Bubba McDowell which was nice).... I am not Pro Carr either.

With that out of the way.....
What is revisionist history is people forgetting how bad he was booed (you were probably one) and the real *****s that threw racial slurs that he and his family endured. Those early days were ugly under Hugh Campbell and Jerry Glanville.To this day, Moon holds the fumble record and the majority of them were early in his career under those regimes.

Forget about the run and shoot. His first seasons were in a pro-style offense and under Glanville they went to the red-gun part of the time (mostly in 3rd down situations). Side note: I dont hold the run-n-shoot responsible for "padding" his numbers. He was asked to run that system and he ran it very well and amassed wins with those numbers.

In the end you hatred for Carr has impeded your ability to see the point that I was leaning towards and that is - as the Oilers made a commitment to strenghten their O-line (soon to be 2 HOF's) and get some running backs, Moon was able to shine..... The scenario is what I am comparing - not eras, not stats not blah, blah...... Give Carr the SAME scenario of tools to work with (and notice, I didn't mention receivers because Carr does have Johnson - which Moon did not = Advantage Carr) and then we can truly judge if he is a bust, an average Joe, or something special... I am NOT sold on the guy, but I would like to see him given the opportunities that others have had....... i.e. MOON.

Vinny
11-09-2006, 04:04 PM
perhaps not just you...I just see it too much around here. Don't take me quoting you too directly, but I still don't agree with any Moon was horrible for the first five years spin. Moon came to a bad team and made that team better. Carr has to do this too...hasn't been done yet. Moon carried that team many, many times.

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 04:11 PM
perhaps not just you...I just see it too much around here. Don't take me quoting you too directly, but I still don't agree with any Moon was horrible for the first five years spin. Moon came to a bad team and made that team better. Carr has to do this too...hasn't been done yet.

I just get a little hot whenever I try to make a comparison but what I am really saying gets lost in translation - no worries.

Thats the point.... however, Moon was a piece of the puzzle (albeit a BIG piece). Mike Munchak and Bruce Mathews were very integral to his success and the Oilers turn around too...

Nuff said on this deal....I still really blame Casserly....

ib4texans
11-09-2006, 04:27 PM
perhaps not just you...I just see it too much around here. Don't take me quoting you too directly, but I still don't agree with any Moon was horrible for the first five years spin. Moon came to a bad team and made that team better. Carr has to do this too...hasn't been done yet. Moon carried that team many, many times.



Lets put this in perspective then "Joey Harrington" Joey came to an existing franchise, was not thrown immediatly in frying pan. When his time came "lots of turn overs and losses." In all fairness is Carr better than Harrington? Lienart,Young they can't do it with an existing franchise. Kerry Collins was on the Panthers expansion year. Collins was a great deep threat and over 3500 YDS passing for 4 consecutive years. He's a bust, Carr is on a team that has better attitude and fans. He's no Peyton Manning, but then he's no Harrington, or Collins either.

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 04:39 PM
The two most important positions for a successful NFL football team are the QB and the head coach.

There are 32 teams in the league, so every team is going to be very thin or one injury away from having a very average team on paper on either side of the ball.

That is why a skill position like the QB needs to be exceptional and carry the load and make other players better, particularly if the QB is being paid max dollars because of the salary cap. Exceptions are teams that have very, very good defenses.

The offensive line gets a lot of the blame for the Texans. But, think about this for moment. An NFL team has about 10 offensive lineman on their 53-man roster with maybe 1 or 2 guys on the practice squad. That means there are probably 340 guys either on NFL rosters or on the practice squads as offensive lineman. There are going to big gaps in talent level on the offensive line for every team on every Sunday. Coaching and QB play is what makes the difference in today's in NFL for a successful offense. Just blaming the offensive line if the QB plays poorly or gets sacked isn't really the entire story. My point is, every team has this problem!

The last two games are at Kubiak and Carr's shoulders because the offense couldn't score quality points early in the game and couldn't come through in the clutch. Kubiak and Carr needs to bring more to the team because there are always going to be holes on a squad due to how many teams there are in the league, and don't forget injuries happen too.

srstex
11-09-2006, 04:41 PM
Yeah but one thing about moon is that he was able to throw deep to his wide recievers.

And Moon's O-line had Mathews, Maggs and Munchak. It has always started up front, if Carr, or anybody for that matter, had those three guys up front you would see good things. I like Chester Pitts always have-I have said so many times on this board- and Mathews was a Pro-Bowl Center-Guard-& Tackle, so just because he has moved around ALOT does not demenish the fact that Pitts is our best lineman.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 04:50 PM
This is why I say (and have said) we're just a bad team. Until we can start putting everything together consistently, we're going to continue to be a bad team. I think that right this second, we have the pieces to be a decent team but we just haven't put them together. Now, some people blame that on leadership and that's why the point to Carr because they believe it's on the QB to provide that leadership. I don't believe that. I think we're just not good, yet. Hopefully, over the next few weeks, we'll start making the plays that will turn us from bad to at least not so bad.

One of our members has taken to calling David the Anchorman. He believes that Carr is slowing the team down. He even has it in his sig, I just can't remember who it is.

But to some extent, I think he's right.

The Dallas game for instance. Those three turnovers(back to back to back) hurt us. but scoring only 6 points in the first half, & none in the third didn't help either. Not challenging the Dallas defense, I think was our major flaw in that game. In every game they played this year, they've shown that while newman & Henry are pretty decent at worst, their safeties are horrible in coverage. But we had one on one coverage with Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, & Eric Moulds..... didn't test it... not once. We had AaronGlenn on Owen.. didn't test it. We had Greg Ellis(a converted DE) on Owen, didn't test it.

& David's second INT, david stared down his reciever.

I don't think Sage would've had that same problem. I'm sure he would have seen the mismatches, and worked them.

Titans.... David had three turnovers. Some think he never should have thrown the ball, I think he should have put it on a rope..... regardless, it was an INT.

Both fumbles, Carr had the ball at his hips, as he moved around the pocket. the Ball was fumbled because of the way he was holding it...... not because he was hit. We should not expect a fumble every time he gets sacked, or hit in the back.

It's very unlikely that these mistakes would've occured had Sage been in the game..... as it was mentioned, Sage wasn't sacked in the same game, with the same OLine, against the same 4 & 5 man rushes that got David.

NYG...... I expected David to follow a terrible game with a good game. his numbers weren't great, but I was impressed that he put the team on his shoulders, and didn't come up short on that crazy dive into(over the defenders) into the endzone. But yeah, I saw open recievers...... down field, when David went underneath.

I'm not blaming Carr for these losses.. a better runing game in all those games would have helped us win those games tremendously. A better defens(more T.O.s) would have helped, stopping Tiki Barber would have helped. Better QB play would have helped.

srstex
11-09-2006, 04:51 PM
Just stats-The Texan's average loss is by 8 points per game

Our offense has scored more points than 5 teams, and tied with 1,

Our defense has allowed less points than 5 teams.

Looking at this is in a totally diferent light, Jeff Fisher-Just as a reference not a comparison- always liked his games close because he knew the cumlitive effect of his pound-it style would break down the other team, although Kubiak does not pound it he has kept the games-for the most part- pretty close and maybe that is his goal, keep it close, keep the other guys O off the field ?
Just a thought-random-and pointless.

srstex
11-09-2006, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE=thunderkyss;493946]One of our members has taken to calling David the Anchorman. He believes that Carr is slowing the team down. He even has it in his sig, I just can't remember who it is.

But to some extent, I think he's right.

The Dallas game for instance. Those three turnovers(back to back to back) hurt us. but scoring only 6 points in the first half, & none in the third didn't help either. Not challenging the Dallas defense, I think was our major flaw in that game. In every game they played this year, they've shown that while newman & Henry are pretty decent at worst, their safeties are horrible in coverage. But we had one on one coverage with Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, & Eric Moulds..... didn't test it... not once. We had AaronGlenn on Owen.. didn't test it. We had Greg Ellis(a converted DE) on Owen, didn't test it.




I agree with the turnovers being Carr's mistakes, but Kubiak said last week that Carr does not audible " That is not part of our game" so every time anybody says that CARR isn't challanging the D, you are wrong, Kubiak and KUBIAK ALONE makes those calls.

bah007
11-09-2006, 04:58 PM
One of our members has taken to calling David the Anchorman. He believes that Carr is slowing the team down. He even has it in his sig, I just can't remember who it is.

But to some extent, I think he's right.

The Dallas game for instance. Those three turnovers(back to back to back) hurt us. but scoring only 6 points in the first half, & none in the third didn't help either. Not challenging the Dallas defense, I think was our major flaw in that game. In every game they played this year, they've shown that while newman & Henry are pretty decent at worst, their safeties are horrible in coverage. But we had one on one coverage with Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, & Eric Moulds..... didn't test it... not once. We had AaronGlenn on Owen.. didn't test it. We had Greg Ellis(a converted DE) on Owen, didn't test it.

& David's second INT, david stared down his reciever.

I don't think Sage would've had that same problem. I'm sure he would have seen the mismatches, and worked them.

Titans.... David had three turnovers. Some think he never should have thrown the ball, I think he should have put it on a rope..... regardless, it was an INT.

Both fumbles, Carr had the ball at his hips, as he moved around the pocket. the Ball was fumbled because of the way he was holding it...... not because he was hit. We should not expect a fumble every time he gets sacked, or hit in the back.

It's very unlikely that these mistakes would've occured had Sage been in the game..... as it was mentioned, Sage wasn't sacked in the same game, with the same OLine, against the same 4 & 5 man rushes that got David.

NYG...... I expected David to follow a terrible game with a good game. his numbers weren't great, but I was impressed that he put the team on his shoulders, and didn't come up short on that crazy dive into(over the defenders) into the endzone. But yeah, I saw open recievers...... down field, when David went underneath.

I'm not blaming Carr for these losses.. a better runing game in all those games would have helped us win those games tremendously. A better defens(more T.O.s) would have helped, stopping Tiki Barber would have helped. Better QB play would have helped.

I agree that Henry & Watkins are below average in coverage and Williams is average at best.

But Newman is one of the top 5 CBs in the league. He hasnt been beat for a TD in 2 YEARS (at least 25 games). He was on AJ for most of the game, so we didnt wanna try going deep on him. Who else on our team is a deep threat?

Moulds is great, but he isnt the deep threat he used to be. A CB like Henry would probably be able to cover him downfield. Walter is not a downfield WR. Daniels could maybe go deep but we wouldnt throw it if Glenn was covering him. He is too good.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 05:13 PM
One of our members has taken to calling David the Anchorman. He believes that Carr is slowing the team down. He even has it in his sig, I just can't remember who it is.

But to some extent, I think he's right.

The Dallas game for instance. Those three turnovers(back to back to back) hurt us. but scoring only 6 points in the first half, & none in the third didn't help either. Not challenging the Dallas defense, I think was our major flaw in that game. In every game they played this year, they've shown that while newman & Henry are pretty decent at worst, their safeties are horrible in coverage. But we had one on one coverage with Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, & Eric Moulds..... didn't test it... not once. We had AaronGlenn on Owen.. didn't test it. We had Greg Ellis(a converted DE) on Owen, didn't test it.




I agree with the turnovers being Carr's mistakes, but Kubiak said last week that Carr does not audible " That is not part of our game" so every time anybody says that CARR isn't challanging the D, you are wrong, Kubiak and KUBIAK ALONE makes those calls.

It's not about calling audibles. some of these were passing plays.... David threw the ball to a different reciever. some were completions, some weren't, but it appeared he didn't even recognize the mismatch.

the worst IMHO, was with GregEllis lined up on Owen Daniels at the far end, on the right sideline.

The play was a run to that side. David Called Owen to come into motion, and line up next to Wiegart.

Guess what?? that also brought GregEllis to that side...... the side we ran the ball to. Guess who made the play, and tackled our RB??

& if we've got 3 recievers(you can count the tight end) in a pattern, I guarantee you one of them is going deep.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 05:18 PM
I agree that Henry & Watkins are below average in coverage and Williams is average at best.

But Newman is one of the top 5 CBs in the league. He hasnt been beat for a TD in 2 YEARS (at least 25 games). He was on AJ for most of the game, so we didnt wanna try going deep on him. Who else on our team is a deep threat?

Moulds is great, but he isnt the deep threat he used to be. A CB like Henry would probably be able to cover him downfield. Walter is not a downfield WR. Daniels could maybe go deep but we wouldnt throw it if Glenn was covering him. He is too good.

On that play where Brady James tipped the ball to Greg Ellis, Andre had Newman beat. It wouldn't have been a touchdown, but we'd have gotten down the field.

Henry's interception, he was covering Andre... If you've got ArronGlenn on Moulds, or Owen Daniels , I would exploit that all day long.

& if I ever thought about putting more than two recievers in the game, my game plan would be to get GregEllis on any of our WRs...... that's what I'd be looking for, and every time I saw it, I'd make Ellis look stupid.

srstex
11-09-2006, 05:25 PM
One play does not engulf the entire game, none of our WR are what the NFL would call fast, so a deep ball turns into a jump ball, that AJ should win most of the time, but still is not a play you want to go to regularly. I hate to burst the we suck bubble, but the Giants are kicking themselves just as bad for only winng by four points, and lets face it when Cook dropped the in the fouth quater we were on our way towards a win. I did not say we would have won, BUT Cook should have protected the ball, 4:11 left in the game we have the ball, we are 4 points down, Cook catches that ball and we may all be writing what a great game the team played, Cook lost that game.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 05:30 PM
One play does not engulf the entire game, none of our WR are what the NFL would call fast, so a deep ball turns into a jump ball, that AJ should win most of the time, but still is not a play you want to go to regularly. I hate to burst the we suck bubble, but the Giants are kicking themselves just as bad for only winng by four points, and lets face it when Cook dropped the in the fouth quater we were on our way towards a win. I did not say we would have won, BUT Cook should have protected the ball, 4:11 left in the game we have the ball, we are 4 points down, Cook catches that ball and we may all be writing what a great game the team played, Cook lost that game.

How 'bout if one of our players has the title "fastest man in the NFL" only 2 years ago?? & I only mentioned one play where Newman was beat, there were others...... & there is more to getting open than speed, especially when their SS is always in the box.

aj.
11-09-2006, 05:30 PM
Without looking at stats, Moon had 2 maybe 2 1/2 what I'd call bad years (84 through mid-season 86 - the entire Hugh Campbell gig and the first part of Glanville). Most of it was dead era post-LYB stuff. When June Jones came in in 86, and Jerry let him open the offense, things changed dramatically. I remember being at the Dome when they won their last 4 home games in '86. Even though they finished 5-11, the place started rocking again for the first time since LYB (even with lots of emptys in the rainbows). I don't recall Moon being booed after mid-season '86 because the team was winning again. In '87 they made the playoffs.

srstex
11-09-2006, 05:42 PM
How 'bout if one of our players has the title "fastest man in the NFL" only 2 years ago?? & I only mentioned one play where Newman was beat, there were others...... & there is more to getting open than speed, especially when their SS is always in the box.

And still IF Cook would have held onto the ball your post would not matter, if we went on to win that is. And the fastest man on our team last year was Jerome Mathis.

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 05:43 PM
And Moon's O-line had Mathews, Maggs and Munchak. It has always started up front, if Carr, or anybody for that matter, had those three guys up front you would see good things. I like Chester Pitts always have-I have said so many times on this board- and Mathews was a Pro-Bowl Center-Guard-& Tackle, so just because he has moved around ALOT does not demenish the fact that Pitts is our best lineman.

That was a different era.

I don't see how any team in today's NFL is going to get three stud offensive lineman on their squad because there are 4 more teams now diluting the pool.

Further, it would be next to impossible to keep them if you are able to do it because of the salary cap and free agency.

Bottom line, the offensive line can and must be improved to some extent, but Kubiak and Carr are going to have to be successful with less than really than more with regard to talent on the offensive line. There just isn't enough guys to go around to accumulate a stud offensive line all the way around and to have backups to boot if their are injuries.

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 05:52 PM
And still IF Cook would have held onto the ball your post would not matter, if we went on to win that is. And the fastest man on our team last year was Jerome Mathis.

You're quoting my post about the Cowboy game.... what difference does it make if Cook holds onto the ball two games later??

& I understand Mathis being the fastest man on our team, but you said none of our recievers are considered NFL fast...... I said Andre won the NFLs fastest man competition 2 years ago.

EDIT: sorry, I just looked it up, he came in second (http://www.houstontexans.com/news/news_detail.php?PRKey=1536)

infantrycak
11-09-2006, 06:00 PM
I don't see how any team in today's NFL is going to get three stud offensive lineman on their squad because there are 4 more teams now diluting the pool.

You haven't been watching the Chiefs for the last few years prior to this one huh? Or the Seahawks?

Texan_Bill
11-09-2006, 06:06 PM
The Oilers kept drafting O-line shortly thereafter, netting Jon Runyan who couldn't get much playing time (because of who was in front of him), Brad Hopkins (pro-bowler) and some others whose name escape me right now... And Infantrycak is correct - take a look at what those teams have done...

Double Barrel
11-09-2006, 06:11 PM
Win as a team, lose as a team. There are way too many glaring inconsistencies with this team to pinpoint one aspect as the reason for losing this year.

As TC mentioned, implementing a new system with a whole lot of new players can take awhile to gel and find success. If I had to "blame" someone, I think the previous regime/GM left a lasting legacy of mediocrity and bad personnel decisions that have hurt us this year more than anything else. Just look at how many of their players have been cut from the team.

aj.
11-09-2006, 06:20 PM
There's merit to the argument that it would be very difficult to keep three premiere O-linemen (such as Munchak, Matthews, and Steinkuhler) who were drafted in consecutive years together beyond their rookie deals because of the cap. Modern cap issues didn't hit until '94. That's one of the reasons Moon (and others from that really good '93 team) were released/traded.

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 06:39 PM
You haven't been watching the Chiefs for the last few years prior to this one huh? Or the Seahawks?

infantrycak, maybe so. Even though I post on this board a lot, I don't know everything that goes on regarding the NFL and I don't have the time to completely back everything up I say with hard numbers because I to work and I have a pipe dream to push because I live in Hollywood. However, that is not an excuse and maybe I am wrong.

But, I don't think so.

What I am saying is, and I don't have hard numbers, it doesn't seem like teams are accumulating and stockpiling marquee players, particularly on the offensive line. Every year, teams are letting big names go in free agency from offensive line to running back.

Your example of the Seahawks really doesn't fit because Hutchinson is now with the Vikings because of free agency from last season. Which is my point.

Look at the Patriots. Those guys are consistently very good and lose a lot of players and coaches every year. The two consitent themes are the head coach and the QB. No need to mention their names because everyone knows who they are. Who are the pro bowlers on the offensive line for the Patriots?

I don't know the Chiefs situation on the offensive line. I am going to look up those guys up and see if they have three pro-bowlers on their squad and get back with you. If the Chiefs are doing that, the Texans need to know how they did it and how they can replicate that because I don't think many teams are able to do it in the NFL. It is very hard to that with free agency and 32 teams in the league because the talent pool is stretched very thin.

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 06:56 PM
You haven't been watching the Chiefs for the last few years prior to this one huh? Or the Seahawks?

Looked up the Chiefs, they did have three Pro Bowlers the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, Roaf just retired this year, so they lost one.

Out of 32 teams the Chiefs and Seahawks did it for a year or two, but it didn't last long.

My point is, you can't rely on your system if it requires more than half of your offensive line to be pro bowlers. The chances of that happening are slim, and if you are successful, it is going to chew up a lot of cap space.

The most important part of an NFL team right now is the Head Coach and GM. There is no salary cap there. Then I would say a QB and a defensive lineman or middle linebacker are the next to most important.

If you have the right system that works well within the salary cap structure and you can scout and coach the talent, you are going to be successful. It is really that simple. Look at the Patriots, Broncos, and Steelers.

Bottom line though, because there are 32 teams in the league and a salary cap, the most successful teams, coaches, and players are going to be the ones that can succeed with less around them than with more. Essentially, a team needs 3 big play makers with decent talent around them that fits well within the system. That is what I am saying.

Who are the 3 big play makers for the Texans?

thunderkyss
11-09-2006, 07:13 PM
My point is, you can't rely on your system if it requires more than half of your offensive line to be pro bowlers. The chances of that happening are slim, and if you are successful, it is going to chew up a lot of cap space.

Bottom line though, because there are 32 teams in the league and a salary cap, the most successful teams, coaches, and players are going to be the ones that can succeed with less around them than with more. Essentially, a team needs 3 big play makers with decent talent around them that fits well within the system. That is what I am saying.

Who are the 3 big play makers for the Texans?

I think the way to do this, would be to continue to draft OL every year, even if that means to 6th & 7th round talent... continue to work with young talent, and have someone ready to go in the event something is not working.

It makes absolutley no sense for the Texans to skip a year, when we have shown absolutely nothing to suggest that we've got this OL thing figured out.

Of course you have to be pretty good at drafting, but I think FA can be just as risky, with injuries, and poor veteran attitudes.

Build your starting line, and your backup as well.

hollywood_texan
11-09-2006, 07:35 PM
I think the way to do this, would be to continue to draft OL every year, even if that means to 6th & 7th round talent... continue to work with young talent, and have someone ready to go in the event something is not working.

It makes absolutley no sense for the Texans to skip a year, when we have shown absolutely nothing to suggest that we've got this OL thing figured out.

Of course you have to be pretty good at drafting, but I think FA can be just as risky, with injuries, and poor veteran attitudes.

Build your starting line, and your backup as well.

I think that is probably the round about philosophy.

Maybe skip a year if you have depth and you additional help in other areas though. But, you have to keep the pool fresh because you need 10 OL guys on your roster and injuries are going to happen.

But, I think what your are saying is build your team through the draft and don't rely or make big splashes into free agency because it is just too expensive.

I think you first have to have a system that will be be productive in the current environment and fill it out accordingly.

Key players to have are QB, LT, DE, LB, and CB as skill positions to fill out. The rest you don't have to really overspend if you have the right system and scout the talent appropriately.

Doug
11-09-2006, 08:26 PM
Well TC, I just wanted to say that I enjoyed the read and I think your points of emphasis were extremely accurate, imo. I don't like looking to next year when we're only half way through this season but with the strides this team is making week by week they are going to be hard to handle next year by any opposing team on our schedule. 2 and 6 is definitely not an illustration of what this team really is.

mganz
11-09-2006, 10:51 PM
70% completion for 220 yards........... yawn.....

why does it matter? If he is 70% with an average ypc of roughly 8, he is moving the ball. I'm ok with that. Its not as exciting, but it is effective. 70% at 8 YPC is better than 30% at 15 YPC.

infantrycak
11-10-2006, 07:45 AM
What I am saying is, and I don't have hard numbers, it doesn't seem like teams are accumulating and stockpiling marquee players, particularly on the offensive line. Every year, teams are letting big names go in free agency from offensive line to running back.

It is very hard to that with free agency and 32 teams in the league because the talent pool is stretched very thin.

I guess the part I disagree with is the talent pool being stretched being the cause. IMO it is the salary cap. You can do it so long as folks are on their rookie contracts and then re-up some folks but you are going to lose people to free agency as well who have more money. There is no doubt you can't keep too many elite players on your team for a prolonged time period because of the cap. The solution is to draft wisely at positions you anticipate letting go even if the player is performing well.

thunderkyss
11-10-2006, 07:46 AM
70% completion for 220 yards........... yawn.....

why does it matter? If he is 70% with an average ypc of roughly 8, he is moving the ball. I'm ok with that. Its not as exciting, but it is effective. 70% at 8 YPC is better than 30% at 15 YPC.

First, 70% at 8 ypc, is his reciever's working their butts off, breaking tackles & acting more like Tightends.....

Why pay $8 million dollars to one of three tight ends??

Vambo, the Marble Eye
11-10-2006, 08:45 AM
This season Carr has had an acceptional ofensive line. In the last game we held the top rated defense of the Giants to one sack. The offense is getting better because they are protecting the man with the ball. They just can not make room for the running back to make a move. Carr still throws short yard passes because he is afraid of getting sacked.

I don't really KNOW if Carr is afraid of getting sacked, but I bet money the coaches are not preaching 3 and 5 step drops (play calling cuz) by having the greatest of confidence in our pass protection. The lack of sacks on Carr is due to executing and good management of a game plan.

There is no "blame" for our record in my opinion. Our record is what it is... the result of a new coach trying to fix an broken franchise in 8 games with a horrendous game schedule. With these kind of obstacles, you will blow pass coverages, miss assignments and fumble. Over time, if we actually fail to improve on continuing weaknesses can we assign blame.:ok:

Texanfan4ever
11-10-2006, 09:25 AM
I don't really KNOW if Carr is afraid of getting sacked, but I bet money the coaches are not preaching 3 and 5 step drops (play calling cuz) by having the greatest of confidence in our pass protection. The lack of sacks on Carr is due to executing and good management of a game plan.

There is no "blame" for our record in my opinion. Our record is what it is... the result of a new coach trying to fix an broken franchise in 8 games with a horrendous game schedule. With these kind of obstacles, you will blow pass coverages, miss assignments and fumble. Over time, if we actually fail to improve on continuing weaknesses can we assign blame.:ok:

THANK YOU!!!!
YOu are the voice of reason. I couldn't have said it better. :marionaner:

Battle Red Flash
11-10-2006, 09:48 AM
Who's to blame? Casserly and Capers.
Capers stuck with his buddies as coaches, and they could not teach.
I see improvement everywhere, and I expect us to go 4-4 over the last 8 games. That boy Kubiak knows what he's doing.

If I have to blame someone on the current team, I'd say the defense over the first 3 games, then the O-line.

cuppacoffee
11-10-2006, 10:39 AM
I said I wouldn't have benched him in the Tennessee game. I've also stated that David is & should be the starter, because Kubiak is treating him more or less like a rookie prospect signed to be our future. So regardless if the fans(me, myself, & I) think we have a better QB on the bench, or that it is time to move on....... David will get the start.

I don't like David, I think I've been pretty consistent about that. I do believe he is playing better than he did last year....... I think I've been pretty honest about that.

Yes...... not all of the bad play that I'm talking about concern learning, or scheming.

Protecting the ball is fundamental, and something he should have learned 5 years ago, and you shouldn't need a HOF coach to tell you. Indy, Washington, and Tennesse..... David gave them the ball by not holding onto it. Warner is sitting down right now, for the same reason on a team that is just as bad. Nobody is talking about new schemes & OL gelling.



Right there, I'm just saying that I'm just saying through my hatred of David, I can still see many reasons why we are losing games....... i.e. it's not David's fault. I think we are on the same side of this argument.

I wish I could say Jake has been playing worse than Carr. He's definitely playing worse than he did last year, but this year I'd say he is playing at about the same level(effectiveness of David) except he's really turned it on in the last two games, and David is still giving us the same blah..

Jake is avg completion is for 11.8 yards per completion. if he completed 70% of his passess(217 x 0.7=151) he'd have 1,792 passing yards right now, that's all I'm saying about that.


you're right, we don't know.... and it's just speculation.

Consistant?.... :rofl: ..... Au Contraire my friend, anything but!

Love Him One Day and Hate HIm the Next (http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=22107)

"You mess with David, and your messing with me. He's my boy, and I got his back." Quoted from TKs' post.

Looks like you got his back allright TK.

Wouldn't want you watching my back...:rolleyes:

Me thinks you have been too easily influenced by all the Carr hating posters on this site. Think for yourself my friend. Carr is doing a better job now than when you made the referenced posting.

Either you have someones back or you don't. :confused:

:coffee:

thunderkyss
11-10-2006, 11:23 AM
Consistant?.... :rofl: ..... Au Contraire my friend, anything but!

Love Him One Day and Hate HIm the Next (http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=22107)

"You mess with David, and your messing with me. He's my boy, and I got his back." Quoted from TKs' post.

Looks like you got his back allright TK.

Wouldn't want you watching my back...:rolleyes:

Me thinks you have been too easily influenced by all the Carr hating posters on this site. Think for yourself my friend. Carr is doing a better job now than when you made the referenced posting.

Either you have someones back or you don't. :confused:

:coffee:


Again, this is like I love my kids, and you better not mess with them. If you ask me if they pick their nose, I'll tell you ..... yeah.. they pick their nose.

You ask me if I think they should audition for American Idol, I'll tell you what I think about their singing and dancing ability.

People were talking about starting Sage in the preseason.... I said that wasn't going to happen, and shouldn't happen.

People said it was the same old David our first three games, I said no, he's improving, and I listed the areas he was improving in. I said I would support him, and I do.

But when people say our passing game is working...... I point out that 200 ypg is not working....

When people say the rest of the team needs to play as well as David..... I'll point out That David is not the best player on our team...

When people say David had one bad game..... I'll point to his other bad games.

I've got another post somewhere around here where I say I don't like David's game.. the way he plays the game. But that doesn't mean that he can't be successful, or that we won't win games..... it's just not me.

So..... if you want people to think you are perfect..... you don't want me in your corner.

If you want people to think your ***** don't stink... you don't want me in your corner.

If you want someone to pat you on the back when you're doing good, and kick you in the ass when you screw up......... I'm your man.

thunderkyss
11-10-2006, 11:25 AM
Carr is doing a better job now than when you made the referenced posting.

:coffee:

when have I said he isn't doing better than he was at that time??

When have I said anything that wasn't true about David at all??

cuppacoffee
11-10-2006, 12:16 PM
when have I said he isn't doing better than he was at that time??

When have I said anything that wasn't true about David at all??

I don't think I have said either thing about you. I just commented on the fact that you are not consistant... as you claimed...:confused:

I just questioned the fact that you said you had his back when apparently you don't... :penalty:

Just wondering what he has done to turn your "love" into "hate" if it isn't his play on the field?...

:coffee:

Vinny
11-10-2006, 01:01 PM
When have I said anything that wasn't true about David at all??You know, I've been a Carr critic for a while (probably since my HPF thread throwing down my long term downside for Carr back in 2003 - that started the hater tag the Carr pimps gave me) but I don't get involved in every Carr thread like some of you guys. I think I get lumped in with guys like you unfairly, but that's just something I deal with on an ongoing basis here. To answer your question, I think you damn him with faint praise as a platform to argue from. I think it's pretty transparent. Just chiming in since you asked.

thunderkyss
11-10-2006, 01:27 PM
To answer your question, I think you damn him with faint praise as a platform to argue from. I think it's pretty transparent. Just chiming in since you asked.

I can see that..........

Meaning if that's your perception, I can see how someone would think that.

Not confirming that that is in fact what is going on.

Vinny
11-10-2006, 01:30 PM
it's not all bad. I think you are welcome to your opinions since you bring them without attacking other posters....so I'll say good things about that since I do respect that about you.

Hulk75
11-10-2006, 01:38 PM
:) I think your both wrong about him.:)

thunderkyss
11-10-2006, 01:39 PM
:) I think your both wrong about him.:)

hmmmmm..........

Runner
11-10-2006, 01:40 PM
Texans Chick asked about a macro or "big picture" view of what is/has been wrong with the Texans so of course it devolved into a discussion of Carr. Well, Dave (or any other player) is a little picture. I'll throw out a wild big picture idea here though.


Why can't the Texans field a talented, winning team? Because of the weather!

I contend that as long we have our training camps in 95 degree heat and 95% humidity, we will continue to do a better job of identifying athletes who can perform in high heat index conditions than we do of identifying football players for NFL afternoons.

Comments?

Vinny
11-10-2006, 01:41 PM
:) I think your both wrong about him.:) He may end up in the pro bowl one day...I hope so too. We all know he has the raw skills. Even his critics have to, or should see that.

Vinny
11-10-2006, 01:49 PM
Texans Chick asked about a macro or "big picture" view of what is/has been wrong with the Texans so of course it devolved into a discussion of Carr. Well, Dave (or any other player) is a little picture. I'll throw out a wild big picture idea here though.


Why can't the Texans field a talented, winning team? Because of the weather!

I contend that as long we have our training camps in 95 degree heat and 95% humidity, we will continue to do a better job of identifying athletes who can perform in high heat index conditions than we do of identifying football players for NFL afternoons.

Comments? He isn't a very good football player but he is hell at beanbag chunkin'!

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/_photos/2003-02-23-inside-aiken.jpg
Ron Berger, an optometrist, gives a hand-eye
coordination test to former North Carolina WR Sam Aiken.

By Robert Scheer, Indianapolis Star INDIANAPOLIS — Rutgers tight end John Smith could not have foreseen the series of tests the Houston Texans were about to give him Saturday at the NFL's scouting combine.

Smith, projected as a third-round pick in the draft April 26-27, was in a room a couple of blocks from RCA Dome, where prospects have been timed and tested since Wednesday. Wearing thick, vision-altering glasses and monitored by two optometrists, Smith was trying to toss bean bags into a small trash can about 10 feet away.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2003-02-23-cover-combine_x.htm

Runner
11-10-2006, 02:06 PM
He isn't a very good football player but he is hell at beanbag chunkin'!

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/nfl/_photos/2003-02-23-inside-aiken.jpg
Ron Berger, an optometrist, gives a hand-eye
coordination test to former North Carolina WR Sam Aiken.

By Robert Scheer, Indianapolis Star http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/2003-02-23-cover-combine_x.htm

I've stated this before and I'll repeat it again here. If you ever have a chance to talk with a player (and even if you can only talk about one topic) ask about the combine. The stories are fabulous. The combine has a unique blend of evaluation and inanity for extremely high stakes.

Texans_Chick
11-10-2006, 02:43 PM
Texans Chick asked about a macro or "big picture" view of what is/has been wrong with the Texans so of course it devolved into a discussion of Carr. Well, Dave (or any other player) is a little picture. I'll throw out a wild big picture idea here though.


Why can't the Texans field a talented, winning team? Because of the weather!

I contend that as long we have our training camps in 95 degree heat and 95% humidity, we will continue to do a better job of identifying athletes who can perform in high heat index conditions than we do of identifying football players for NFL afternoons.

Comments?


I have wondered about that some. This summer had a heat wave all over the country, but I had a hard time just WATCHING some of the practices it was so hot. It can't be something that is particularly attractive to free agents either. Word gets around.

I know they've paid a lot of money for that practice facility, but they can't use it all the time. Especially for players that have nicked up legs, they've tried to keep them on the grass.

DeclanJr
11-10-2006, 02:44 PM
David Carr is to blame? Wrong.

Who's to blame? 1) Charley Casserly for years of poor draft picks and trades, and 2) Dom Capers for years of zero focus on developing David Carr with an experienced backup or a top fight QB coach. Period.

The Texans are closer to a first year franchise than a fifth because so little was done during the first four years. With that said, sit back and watch the second half of the season. Our team is playing better and the competition is weaker. It's going to be a nice turn of events.

Are you kidding me? Read what Thunderkyss has written and maybe you'll get the point. The guy has been terrible for 5 years and any other quarterback with that many completions would be throwing for 300+ yards a game. When has Carr thrown downfield and it not been a jump ball???

Andre Johnson is a great reciever and so is Moulds. Without them, Carr is an average quarterback with a bad throwing motion. I still don't understand how someone with his talent was drafted no.1 overall. I put Carr in that Casserly regime category. Rosenfels gives us a better chance to win period.

SESupergenius
11-10-2006, 03:36 PM
I have them at 1 game behind schedule right now considering I pegged them at 6-10. Listen folks, you don't re-grow a team like this overnight. There are just want too many new factors for us to even be halfway decent. Carr is making good strides, the Defense is coming along, and the coaches are gaining players' respect.

SESupergenius
11-10-2006, 03:37 PM
Are you kidding me? Read what Thunderkyss has written and maybe you'll get the point. The guy has been terrible for 5 years and any other quarterback with that many completions would be throwing for 300+ yards a game. When has Carr thrown downfield and it not been a jump ball???

Andre Johnson is a great reciever and so is Moulds. Without them, Carr is an average quarterback with a bad throwing motion. I still don't understand how someone with his talent was drafted no.1 overall. I put Carr in that Casserly regime category. Rosenfels gives us a better chance to win period.
Carr is having a good, just in case you didn't notice. Hey, where'd that running game go?

JDizzle
11-10-2006, 04:36 PM
I blame Ron Dayne and Canada.

BigDTexansFan
11-10-2006, 04:40 PM
1st let me ask 1 question, you have a baby who is learning to walk, he falls down quite a bit and bangs into things and stumbles a lot....who is to blame for that.......NO ONE

The analogy is the same the Texans are learning to walk, BOY OH BOY wait till we master running. :redtowel: :redtowel: :redtowel: :redtowel:

Texan_Bill
11-11-2006, 11:49 AM
I blame Ron Dayne and Canada.

Dude, its definitley the Canadiens fault...

New_Texans
11-11-2006, 01:49 PM
Some of you people should never talk about football...or shouldnt call yourself Texans' fans

:francis:

Vinny
11-11-2006, 01:55 PM
Some of you people should never talk about football...or shouldnt call yourself Texans' fans

:francis:some of you should stick to talking football instead of bashing the people who are.

trutexan02
11-11-2006, 02:04 PM
I'm sure every other couch coach feels that way. It' easy to blame him one person when we lose. I'm sure you'd and every other couch coach would feel differently if we had 6 wins opposed to 6 losses. Let's not forget the money a certain Baltimore QB commanded (and got) after a super bowl year when was no better than Carr is right now.
I liked Carr's fire last week, I hope to see more of it this week. And when we win every one will be on his side again.

eriadoc
11-12-2006, 12:43 AM
We lose the battle on the lines. We always have. Pitts is the only offensive lineman we have that would probably find a starting spot on another NFL team. Flanagan was not going to be re-signed by the Packers because they didn't think he was starter material anymore. Wiegert wouldn't start for any other team in the NFL (at RT, anyway). McKinney lost his starting job to a career backup, Fred Weary. Our left tackle position has been a revolving door since the first game of the franchise's history.

Our defensive line has been just as bad. Seth Payne has been the best defensive lineman this team has ever had, in a position that doesn't garner many accolades. Walker was good for about a year and a half. Babin has been a disappointment overall, though he's shown flashes of potential. Peek is a decent role player, but has been very inconsistent. Travis Johnson is only in his second year, but has clearly underachieved to this point. Robaire smith only showed up for a couple games a year - vs. the Tacks.

Kubiak has shown a light at the end of the tunnel. He drafted Spencer and Winston this year, which at least demonstrates that he recognizes the need on the O-line. He drafted Mario and signed Anthony Weaver to the D-line. He brought in many role players to rotate in and out of the D-line and as a unit, the D-line might end up being the strength of the team.

So I am hopeful, but to me, the demise of this organization has been atrocious line play to this point in its short history.

spurstexanstros
11-12-2006, 01:41 AM
blame george w bush. they blame him for everything anyways.

Runner
11-12-2006, 01:57 AM
I think another attitude that was ingrained in the players from the previous regime is this. The players were not allowed to voice an opinion on the team direction, play calling, personnel, etc. without there being repercussions from the coaching staff. It was clear to the players they should mind their own business and not speak out about things.

This leads to the players playing for themselves, not fully participating in making the team better, and - at the worst - ends up with the players quitting on the coaches.