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nunusguy
11-07-2006, 12:50 PM
"I teach a quarterback to read with his feet," Kubiak said. "You take a three-step drop, you hit your ball foot, the ball goes here; if he's not open, you hitch, the ball goes here. That's the way you teach a guy to read. It is different for (Carr), what I'm teaching, so it's difficult for him."
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4315381.html
**************************
Kinda a wierd story heading, but that's Megan Manfulls language for this story which is probably best appreciated by you guys who know about the nuances of playing QB.

Double Barrel
11-07-2006, 12:59 PM
I heard this quote this morning. It indicates (to me) that Kubiak is having to go through a process of 'deprogramming' Carr from the conditioning he's endured from 200+ sacks in four seasons. And he probably has to undo the garbage put into DC's head from the previous regime. I have to wonder where Carr's development would be right now if he'd been coached by Kubiak for his entire career.

That is a weird story heading, though. :um:

hollywood_texan
11-07-2006, 01:16 PM
One thing that is very important in life is realizing when you are in over your head and doing something about it. Self-evaluation is so critical and it seems to me from what I have read that Carr doesn't do that.

It seems as though Carr went through his first 4 years on autopilot not questioning a thing from Capers or getting help somewhere else.

If I was the #1 pick in the draft and with a $60 million dollar contract, I would like to think that I could realize my shortcomings and find some way to fix them despite coaching staff or talent around me.

It seems like Carr just waits around for someone to tell him something than trying to figuring it out on his own.

A good example of that is that after year 3 he finally went to Capers and told him he was being sacked too many times. My first question was, why did he wait 3 years to discuss that with Capers? I would have discussed that during the rookie season.

Maybe I am being too critical of Carr and I definitely don't know everything he does to make himself better, but I just don't get the sense that he is proactive in the betterment of his QB skills or career. It seems like he waits around for other people to tell him what to do.

Texan_Bill
11-07-2006, 01:19 PM
Lets take a quick look at the "old regime" v. the "new":
Kubiak:
Young, Elway and Plummer (who was improved last season)

Palmer:
Couch, Bledsoe, Brunell and DC.......

Porky
11-07-2006, 01:24 PM
FYI - writers in major newpapers do not write their own headlines. They have headline writers for that.

In any case, his footwork has always been shoddy.

wolfscar
11-07-2006, 01:26 PM
Kubiak is having to go through a process of 'deprogramming' Carr from the conditioning he's endured from 200+ sacks in four seasons. And he probably has to undo the garbage put into DC's head from the previous regime. I have to wonder where Carr's development would be right now if he'd been coached by Kubiak for his entire career.

Sickening to think, isn't it? With the weapons Carr has, if they'd taken hold of him after college, taught him to hold onto the ball and STOP STARING DOWN EVERY DAMN RECEIVER he throws to, we could potentially have one of the very best QBs in the NFL playing for us right now. Those are both cardinal sins and he's still pretty good, even with all that.

Sarg01
11-07-2006, 01:37 PM
Well, this is the sort of story that I want to hear. A specific technical problem stated in absolute terms is something that can be fixed. To me that's much more interesting than things like "we need to play better on the road" or "we need to protect the football" or 'we need to execute better".

Runner
11-07-2006, 01:51 PM
Sickening to think, isn't it? With the weapons Carr has, if they'd taken hold of him after college, taught him to hold onto the ball and STOP STARING DOWN EVERY DAMN RECEIVER he throws to, we could potentially have one of the very best QBs in the NFL playing for us right now. Those are both cardinal sins and he's still pretty good, even with all that.

Makes you wonder about all of the other draft "busts" we've had, doesn't it? Maybe the problem wasn't talent evaluation but player development. I imagine the Texans have short circuited some careers that could have been better.

run-david-run
11-07-2006, 01:55 PM
Makes you wonder about all of the other draft "busts" we've had, doesn't it? Maybe the problem wasn't talent evaluation but player development. I imagine the Texans have short circuited some careers that could have been better.

which is why Capers was the first to go.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2006, 01:57 PM
Nice to hear it coming from the staff, but it certainly was no mystery if you watched any of our games over the last 4.5 years. Two left feet don't make a right.

srstex
11-07-2006, 02:06 PM
In Kubiak's comments he also said Carr does not audible, that is not part of our game, I believe he said, so we know more about why Carr does some of the things he does. I was impressed with the fact AJ finally helped out his QB by going after the catch instead of letting the ball come to him. All in all, last week was a winnable game against another team with more talent then we have. The Titan game was our gift to them.
:homer:
Just because I am a I need to bring it up that we can still finish with a winning record, and I for one believe.

Hulk75
11-07-2006, 02:15 PM
So his feet get out of wack because he has been hammered ever since he got here.............WoW!:yawn:

I think I will write an article on "Houston Texas is humid".

hollywood_texan
11-07-2006, 02:20 PM
I stated this in an earlier post, but I think it interesting that no one wants to discuss that Carr appears to not take a personal interest in his own development.

It appears as though he waits around for the coach to tell him what to do or to explain something that he is doing wrong. If that doesn't happen, he just chugs along.

A mark of a good professional (or anyone wanting to be successful in life) is being proactive in his or her own development and knowing when he makes a mistake or has bad technique without a coach's input.

real
11-07-2006, 02:23 PM
I stated this in an earlier post, but I think it interesting that no one wants to discuss that Carr appears to not take a personal interest in his own development.

It appears as though he waits around for the coach to tell him what to do or to explain something that he is doing wrong. If that doesn't happen, he just chugs along.

A mark of a good professional (or anyone wanting to be successful in life) is being proactive in his or her own development and knowing when he makes a mistake or has bad technique without a coach's input.

LMAO....How can you do the "right thing" if you don't know what "the right thing" is ????

SESupergenius
11-07-2006, 02:28 PM
Here is what I see the problems of Carr are:


Directional throws - Carr is the type of QB that throws lazers, he needs to be able to throw to a spot and let the receiver catch it. 2 examples. Example 1: Tiki Barber catches a ball out of the backfield while running to the sidelines and then proceeding forward, then the ball catches him in stride. Carr delivers the ball at the point of the body where the back has to catch the ball while looking at David. Example 2: Rosenfels throws a ball high and ahead of Andre Johnson in the endzone on a slant play, Johnson has to adjust by leaping and stretching for the ball. Carr throws a ball at the numbers with more mustard on it, allowing the defender to get at it as much as AJ. Carr isn't using his players ability in those situations. Although he having a great passing percentage, the WR's are not called on to make plays if they are covered. There was one long bomb pass the Carr put up for Andre that the Receiver was actually called upon to get it, and guess what, it was a TD.
Line Awareness - Carr needs to move around the pocket better and step up in it while the DE's are swinging to the outside. I thought last game he did that well, but he chose the underneath stuff. If you are getting time by moving around in the pocket, then the deeper guys are going to be open more. We need more long plays that way.
Anger - Carr just flat out needs to fire up this offense vocally. He needs to have some bark in his voice and convey that to his teammates that he means business. It's his show, he needs to run it. If he's going to take all the heat then he'd better have a say so in it. He should have been all over Cook for that drive killing fumble that potentially could have won them the game.
TE play - Carr needs to find the TE more and not lock onto AJ so much. I'd rather AJ have over 100 yards on 4 catches than 10 catches for 90.
Run less - Carr should run less, but only on non-rollout type plays. Make him stay in the pocket and find the receiver, at times he looks to bail out to fast instead of buying time to find the receiver.
Call audibles - Allow Carr to call his audibles, he has proven to be very good at calling his own game.
Play fakes - Carr is not using the effective enough. I've seen several play-action-passes that are effective, but when there is a run, he just stands there and doesn't act like he still has the ball. DE's are being conditioned to look at our offense and stay in their area to expect a roll-out. Carr needs to act like he is still rolling out on run plays, maybe this will open up the end runs.

Porky
11-07-2006, 02:34 PM
Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere. I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try. Carr has proven he will never lead this particular team anywhere. Until Kubes can be honest with himself, and forget about his ego, this team is stuck in this hellish black hole we are in.

Runner
11-07-2006, 02:35 PM
LMAO....How can you do the "right thing" if you don't know what "the right thing" is ????

Actively pursue knowledge. Don't wait around until somebody else takes the initiative to improve you.

Nawzer
11-07-2006, 02:44 PM
Well anyone who has watched the Texans for a while will tell you that DC doesn't have the best mechanics. I mentioned this a few months ago that DC seems to throw off of his backfoot a lot and his delivery is almost sidearmed. The ball tends to sail and it results in an incomplete pass or as an interception. Also when the rush is on DC will sometimes step right into the arms of the pass rusher instead of moving away. For example, when Sage was in during the Titans game he avoided the rush multiple time by moving outside or stepping up in the pocket and making a throw. DC has to learn that he's got to stand tall and deliver a strong pass. I know Kubiak and crew are working hard at this because it is a problem and it has been for too long of a time.

real
11-07-2006, 02:46 PM
Actively pursue knowledge. Don't wait around until somebody else takes the initiative to improve you.

Sure....he can just go to his local Library and pick up the book, Quaterbacking for Dummies.....

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2006, 02:46 PM
Gerry Fleck: I can't dance, I can't dance, I've got two left feet!
Cookie Fleck: I thought he was kidding.
Gerry Fleck: But I wasn't. I was born with two left feet.

Texanfan4ever
11-07-2006, 02:48 PM
I stated this in an earlier post, but I think it interesting that no one wants to discuss that Carr appears to not take a personal interest in his own development.

It appears as though he waits around for the coach to tell him what to do or to explain something that he is doing wrong. If that doesn't happen, he just chugs along.

A mark of a good professional (or anyone wanting to be successful in life) is being proactive in his or her own development and knowing when he makes a mistake or has bad technique without a coach's input.


I don't think anyone is discussing it because no one believes that. Well, maybe a few of the haters, but not trying to win has never been Carrs problem.

Texanfan4ever
11-07-2006, 02:51 PM
Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere. I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try. Carr has proven he will never lead this particular team anywhere. Until Kubes can be honest with himself, and forget about his ego, this team is stuck in this hellish black hole we are in.


I'm not slamming you for the statement about Sage making us 4-4, but if you want to be unrealistic, how about if we had had Sage from the beginning, we would be 8-0. It's about the same. To me that is a very silly statement.

Runner
11-07-2006, 02:56 PM
Sure....he can just go to his local Library and pick up the book, Quaterbacking for Dummies.....

I don't think that would work. I can think of a few things off of the top of my head though.

Contacting other successful QBs in the off-season (retired or active), challenging his coaches when he notices other QBs have more success than him, inviting himself to a month of Andre's workouts at the U to work with successful players during the off-season are the type of things I'm talking about.

Taking actions like these or any of the many others I'd never think of just require him to take responsibility for his own improvement and act upon it.


Before the accusation is tossed out, I'm not a Carr basher. I rarely post about Dave because it is usually a waste of energy around here. I do think it is time for him to step up as an individual though.

Porky
11-07-2006, 03:01 PM
I'm not slamming you for the statement about Sage making us 4-4, but if you want to be unrealistic, how about if we had had Sage from the beginning, we would be 8-0. It's about the same. To me that is a very silly statement.

The defense wasn't good enough the first three games, so those are losses no matter who is behind center. Since then, we are 2-3. I say with Sage, we are 4-1 in these past 5 games. That would make us 4-4 overall. That's my belief. So sue me. :rolleyes:

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 03:02 PM
I stated this in an earlier post, but I think it interesting that no one wants to discuss that Carr appears to not take a personal interest in his own development.

Maybe because there is nothing to discuss because it is just baseless speculation in a vacuum. You seem to like to take an absence of information and find that informative of a lack of action or interest by Carr. We have no idea what discussions Carr had over the years with Palmer, Pendry and Capers.

hollywood_texan
11-07-2006, 03:05 PM
I don't think anyone is discussing it because no one believes that. Well, maybe a few of the haters, but not trying to win has never been Carrs problem.

You might want to look at some the of the posts previous to yours.

It looks like some people have some of the same thoughts as mine, they are just not expressing them directly though. Maybe I am reading too much in there comments? A little self evaulation there, ha, ha, ha...

On the same topic though, I saw an interview with Peyton Manning and the interviewer basically asked Peyton how lucky he thought he was to have Marvin Harrison as a WR for so many years of his career

Peyton's response was that there was no luck involved, it was hard work by working together to show that the relationship was better toghether than separated.

I am not saying Carr needs to be like Peyton, because that guy has a work ethic that probably most people can't even dream about. But it appears Carr needs to put some more elbow grease on his preparation and technique. In addition, he needs to self evaluate himself where the coach can ask Carr where he screwed up and he can give him the answer. Basically coach himself, which shouldn't be too much to ask of an NFL player.

No one is prefect but it really helps to know the mistake without someone telling you. I just don't get that sense with Carr and these articles.

Also, I remember Kubiak saying that Carr did well in the OTAs but they need to come to training camp and not go over the same technique stuff again. I don't know if this is the same stuff they went over in the OTAs, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is because it seems to be just basic technique. Kubiak is going over the same thing Carr over and over, so it appears.

hollywood_texan
11-07-2006, 03:10 PM
Maybe because there is nothing to discuss because it is just baseless speculation in a vacuum. You seem to like to take an absence of information and find that informative of a lack of action or interest by Carr. We have no idea what discussions Carr had over the years with Palmer, Pendry and Capers.

My posts are not baseless.

I am taking several articles written about Carr and his work ethic and how other successful QBs perpare.

From what I have read and seen, it looks like it isn't there when it comes to Carr.

I don't see everything that he does and I don't know his work habits, so I can't say conclusively, but I can still take a reasonable basis of what is going on by taking taking several sources and coming to conclusion.

I am not 100% positive, but from what I have read and seen, it is reasonable that this stuff is going on with Carr.

Runner
11-07-2006, 03:11 PM
Maybe because there is nothing to discuss because it is just baseless speculation in a vacuum. You seem to like to take an absence of information and find that informative of a lack of action or interest by Carr. We have no idea what discussions Carr had over the years with Palmer, Pendry and Capers.

You make a good point, but after seeing year after year the same performance, worse performance, or slight improvement (take your pick from game to game) it would have been nice to see some indication that drastic changes in approach were being made.

As you say, these changes may have been made out of our sight; if they were they didn't have much effect until Kubiak came in and started leading the change step by step. The change is still slow, but hopefully it is steady in the positive direction.

Frills
11-07-2006, 03:13 PM
Sage has always looked good when he has nothing to lose, when the pressure is on him from the start he crumbles.

Sage knew vs Tenn he wasn't gonna get replaced. When he has to look over his shoulder he quite the ineffective one

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2006, 03:15 PM
You make a good point, but after seeing year after year the same performance, worse performance, or slight improvement (take your pick from game to game) it would have been nice to see some indication that drastic changes in approach were being made.

As you say, these changes may have been made out of our sight; if they were they didn't have much effect until Kubiak came in and started leading the change step by step. The change is still slow, but hopefully it is steady in the positive direction.

I agree. We re-signed him. If we did that there should have been a simple fix that was easily executable. Now we are back to a project which is to expensive to cut and run from.

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 03:24 PM
You make a good point, but after seeing year after year the same performance, worse performance, or slight improvement (take your pick from game to game) it would have been nice to see some indication that drastic changes in approach were being made.

As you say, these changes may have been made out of our sight; if they were they didn't have much effect until Kubiak came in and started leading the change step by step. The change is still slow, but hopefully it is steady in the positive direction.

The thing is--take this outside of the context of Carr and consider the Capers regime. What did you see change during that time period? 3.5 years of no pass rush before he finally tells Fangio to try blitzing the 2nd half of last season. Trotting Bradford out there time and time again. If we are looking at patterns there was definitely one of Capers playing one way and being incredibly hard headed and opinionated--Babin is a perfect 3-4 OLB and Merriman won't fit--nice. Now back to Carr--Kubiak has repeatedly made comments about how hard Carr is working, his enthusiasm, etc. Is it all fixed instantly--nope, not even close. Ses had a pretty good list up there. Reminds me of a Saving Private Ryan line--"listen up Rybeck, that's how you complain."

Double Barrel
11-07-2006, 03:29 PM
I think some of y'all are forgetting the extreme crappiness of our o-line the first four seasons. It's hard to get your fundamental mechanics down to analyze them when you're constantly running for your life and getting slammed to the ground on a regular basis.

For all we know, the braniac Palmer had been 'teaching' Carr. Palmer used to be a QB coach, remember? Just because we can now look back with 20/20 vision and say Palmer was a bad coach, I would have been flamed silly for that take two years ago. And remember, Carr never had a QB coach on this team until this season. I blame Capers and the FO for not putting DC in a position to learn his position.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Kubiak's philosophy all starts with the QB position. He's not going to hitch his HC career wagon to a horse that he doesn't believe will pull it. I simply cannot believe speculation that he would take the job with a condition to keep Carr under any circumstance. Kubiak has stated time and time again that DC has what it takes, and Kubiak believes that he's the coach to polish that gem. If he can't do it, then we'll have another QB around here. Of that I have no doubt.

edo783
11-07-2006, 03:36 PM
As you say, these changes may have been made out of our sight; if they were they didn't have much effect until Kubiak came in and started leading the change step by step. The change is still slow, but hopefully it is steady in the positive direction.

Perhaps it's because the ones he was relying on to teach him to be an NFL QB were clueless until Kubes? Maybe, just maybe, they had a negative effect on him in terms of development. Your a young guy coming out of college, your picked #1, you praised as a real good kid, your HC is considered to be an NFL defensive geniouse. So What do you do? You take everything these guys with years of NFL experience say as the utter gospel. Then when your not getting protected and beat like a pinata at a fat kids party, you start wondering what YOU are doing wrong, not that what the coaches are telling you is wrong, but what you are doing wrong. Being the good kid that you are you keep working harder and harder to do what they tell you even though you probably question it. In the end, they have screwed up you mechanics and your head. Then a new guy comes in who actually knows what the sam hill he is doing in regards to a QB, well guess what, it takes more that 2 min. on the microwave to get it done. In fact, it may never get done. It will depend on just how bad the kid has been screwed up and to me, that is pretty much a criminal thing, because he at one time was all that you could want in a rookie QB. Shame, Shame, Shame on this club if they have screwed him up so bad that Kubes can't get him recovered.

Runner
11-07-2006, 03:38 PM
The thing is--take this outside of the context of Carr and consider the Capers regime...

I think some of y'all are forgetting the extreme crappiness of our o-line the first four seasons...

I'm not forgetting, and I'm not saying Carr should have made himself into a pro-bowler by himself. I'm also not going to believe it was everyone else's fault and Carr should have accepted sucking because he was powerless.

gtexan02
11-07-2006, 03:39 PM
Heres how I feel. Kubiak currently has 2 choices. He can either continue to start Carr, live through mediocre performances, and hopefully pull out a game by being conservative

OR

He can start Sage, who has more playing ability in this offense, and will probably win a few more games this year.

Whats the catch? Sage is probably at the peak of his QB career. Kubiak knows QBs, and I get the feeling that what we see from Sage is abuot as good as you could ever expect.

When Kubiak looks at Carr, I think he sees something special. I think he sees pro-bowler like potential, and that is why he's sticking with him. We've suffered for 4 years now, and I know everyone is ready to win now and win big, but Kubiak's coaching career is on the line here, and so I think he's going with Carr because he thinks the experience and confidence will mold him into our long term answer.

This guy has worked his entire life to be a head coach, has passed up opportunities in the past because he didn't like the fit, and now tha the finally has chosen one, I highly doubt someone with his level of knowledge would hitch his wagon to the wrong horse.



Lets also not forget that Dan Reeves, highly touted QB evaluator, and someone Mike Vick recently quoted in a positive light, also made an independent evalution of Carr and liked the potential.

Does it suck waiting another year for our team to be truly competitive? Yes, but at the same time, i'd rather wait a year in order to start a reign of houston than take mediocrity now and forever

real
11-07-2006, 03:44 PM
I'm not forgetting, and I'm not saying Carr should have made himself into a pro-bowler by himself. I'm also not going to believe it was everyone else's fault and Carr should have accepted sucking because he was powerless.

Not powerless....But just about....

real
11-07-2006, 03:46 PM
Players don't overcome bad coaching...

bah007
11-07-2006, 03:46 PM
Players don't overcome bad coaching...

Wrong.

Its not that they dont.

Players cant overcome bad coaching.

Kaiser Toro
11-07-2006, 03:47 PM
Players don't overcome bad coaching...

...and some players are coach killers

Wharton
11-07-2006, 03:52 PM
Kubes has been totally supportive of DC until this interview. So, why now?

And, what is he really saying?

real
11-07-2006, 03:53 PM
Kubes has been totally supportive of DC until this interview. So, why now?

And, what is he really saying?

It didn't sound like he was bashing Carr to me....

I really think the article was.....hmmm......fluffy?

Ole Miss Texan
11-07-2006, 03:59 PM
I find it funny how people 'know' sage would have won. we've never seen him play 4 qtrs of the same football game time and time. maybe he deserves a chance I don't know.

My point is some qb's in the nfl are meant for back up roles. I liked what I saw from sage during the tenn. game, but could he do that starting, and for the whole game? I certainly have no idea.

Honoring Earl 34
11-07-2006, 04:04 PM
So his feet get out of wack because he has been hammered ever since he got here.............WoW!:yawn:

I think I will write an article on "Houston Texas is humid".

Go get a million dollar research grant first ... then say your results are Houston has high humidity .

NATHANHALE
11-07-2006, 04:21 PM
"I think hes going to continue to get better if I get those things locked in.

This line is from Kubiak's talk about Carr, and I find Gary's selection of words very telling, especially the two words 'think' and 'if.' Why not 'know' and 'when?'

JMO, but I believe there is a 'chink in the armor' between what Kubiak thought of David before he became HC, and what he knows now. Gary made it clear from 'day one' that it was his choice to give Carr the $8 million, not even considering the lesser option of less Texan commitment in both time and money.

Too, Kubiak stresses that Carr keeps making the same mistakes over and over again every week-why? Is this an indication that these mistakes are not ever going to get corrected? And, more important what affect do these mistakes have on the game out come?

:brickwall Is this where Gary really is with Carr? Has Kubiak established a time frame for Carr to show 'marked' improvement in these areas? Is he putting 1 player-albeit the most crucial position player on the field-ahead of the team?

Would 'benching' Carr 'light a fire' under him to correct these mistakes? The plain 'vanilla' game plan we had Sunday--obviously designed for Carr's 'psychy'--is not going to win games. Kubiak-in effect-is in a 'catch-22' dilemma because, on one hand, he's got a QB that needs to be 'unleashed' to exploit his talents but-on the other hand-is not happy with the potential 'baggage/end result' that may go with it...earn those big bucks, Kubes, and get some positive results on the field........:redtowel: :yikes:

TexansFanatic
11-07-2006, 04:47 PM
I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try.

That's an easy one: Vinny Testaverde

Career stats:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/70/career

Vinny had an eerily similar start to his career. First overall pick, considered a can't miss prospect. Starts out with a pathetic team and is given every opportunity to succeed because of the lack of talent around him. Turns out it wasn't the lack of talent around him that made him mediocre.....he was simply mediocre himself. Uh-oh.....

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 04:59 PM
I'm not forgetting, and I'm not saying Carr should have made himself into a pro-bowler by himself. I'm also not going to believe it was everyone else's fault and Carr should have accepted sucking because he was powerless.

Wasn't at all absolving Carr. More pointing out the lack of player development across the board under the old regime. Who got better than when they arrived here? Faggins, maybe.

Players don't overcome bad coaching...

Yup.

I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB.

Lay up--Terry Bradshaw.

Texan_Bill
11-07-2006, 05:03 PM
Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere. I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try. Carr has proven he will never lead this particular team anywhere. Until Kubes can be honest with himself, and forget about his ego, this team is stuck in this hellish black hole we are in.

I would be happy to discuss this with you BUT, how and where are you getting this information... Seriously Dude, I would fly you to Vegas with that kind of insight... Sage having a one good half of football in his illustrious 6 year career? Are you kidding me? Again, for the unteenth time... He could not win the starting position in Miami whenever they were trying to give it away!!

TexansFanatic
11-07-2006, 05:19 PM
Lay up--Terry Bradshaw.

Wow, I honestly didn't realize until just now how mediocre Bradshaw's career stats were. Hard to believe a Hall of Fame, 4 Super Bowl winning QB could have a career rating of 70.92

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/BradTe00.htm

Porky
11-07-2006, 05:39 PM
Wow, I honestly didn't realize until just now how mediocre Bradshaw's career stats were. Hard to believe a Hall of Fame, 4 Super Bowl winning QB could have a career rating of 70.92

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/BradTe00.htm

Many of us preach this a lot, but I think we get drowned out. Looking at a bunch of numbers in football is next to meaningless. You can't really tell how good a QB is or isn't by looking strickly at the numbers and QB rating. You have to simply watch him play, and have some experience either by years of watching, or by playing, so you can really see what is going on. That's how I form my opinions. I could care less if Carr has a rating of 140 or 40. My opinion has been formed by watching roughly 68 starts in his career.

As far as Bradshaw and Testerverde. Bradshaw's 5th year is slightly before my time, but I think this is when he really began to turn it on. Since I don't have the hindsight of watching his play in 1975, I have no choice but to turn to some numbers and he threw 18td's to only 9 picks that year. Of course, he went on to be much better than average. In Vinny's case, he lasted 5 yrs exactly as the starter in Tampa, so I will give you your due. He never was better than capable imo, but carved out a nice niche for himself, so I will just concede these two guys to y'all.

So, let me honor you guys, and say that out of the last 35 years, we have two examples out of the hundreds of starters during that time period. I think that makes my point quite nicely, thanks. :ok:

Vinny
11-07-2006, 05:53 PM
Wow, I honestly didn't realize until just now how mediocre Bradshaw's career stats were. Hard to believe a Hall of Fame, 4 Super Bowl winning QB could have a career rating of 70.92 another prime example of a totally worthless stat. The game was different back then too. It was much more vertical and QB completion %'s were much lower than today's QBs till more of the Gillman/Walsh/Brown concepts took root in the modern passing game.

You have to actually watch a QB to see if he is any good. Stats don't translate like they do in baseball. A 350 hitter is what he is in baseball since its an individual match up. In football there are too many variables such as a billion 4 yard passes to pump up your stats.

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 05:55 PM
As far as Bradshaw and Testerverde. Bradshaw's 5th year is slightly before my time, but I think this is when he really began to turn it on. Since I don't have the hindsight of watching his play in 1975, I have no choice but to turn to some numbers and he threw 18td's to only 9 picks that year.

1975 was his sixth year and yes that is when things turned. I watched Bradshaw a bunch over the years. Dude was a gamer but far from the greatest QB ever. He was benched one or more times in his 1st 5 years. His judgment definitely got better but never great over his career but they also oh my god--put some talent around him--might be more than just a little coincidence that the 1974 draft netted Lynn Swan, Jack Lambert, John Stallworth and Mike Webster--all in the hall of fame.

another prime example of a totally worthless stat. The game was different back then too. It was much more vertical and QB %'s were much lower than today's QBs till more of the Gillman/Walsh/Brown concepts took root in the modern passing game.

You have to actually watch a QB to see if he is any good. Stats don't translate like they do in baseball. A 350 hitter is what he is in baseball since its an individual match up. In football there are too many variables such as a billion 4 yard passes to pump up your stats.

What stat? Not a real appropriate time to pull out the anti-stat argument--none were referenced. Bradshaw got benched at least once and I believe more than that during that time frame. He was definitely a gamer but had very poor judgment to begin with. As for stats--there is no way you can spin 6 TD's and 24 INT's into a good thing in any era.

Osso
11-07-2006, 05:56 PM
I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try.

Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk


And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

Vinny
11-07-2006, 06:01 PM
And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.Just throwing a bunch of names out and insulting Porky isn't much of an argument.

Vinny
11-07-2006, 06:03 PM
What stat? Not a real appropriate time to pull out the anti-stat argument--none were referenced. Bradshaw got benched at least once and I believe more than that during that time frame. He was definitely a gamer but had very poor judgment to begin with. As for stats--there is no way you can spin 6 TD's and 24 INT's into a good thing in any era.

70.92 QB rating stat that TexansFanatic laid down. QB rating is a totally useless stat imo. Give me a guy who takes some shots downfield and throws some TD's and a few INT's over a guy who throws nothing but 4 yard passes and has to have 18 play drives to score. The latter gets the better rating....but isn't always the better QB.

Marcus
11-07-2006, 06:04 PM
So, let me honor you guys, and say that out of the last 35 years, we have two examples out of the hundreds of starters during that time period. I think that makes my point quite nicely, thanks. :ok:
I know you want to always ping on those 5 years, Porky. But 4 of those could be thrown out, considering the lovely coaching that existed here.

You could do Kubes a small favor, and allow him at least 1 year to try to undo all that damage. At least he's being honest and forthright about Carr's faults, along with being astute enough to recognize what they even are. I'll even go so far as to agree they might . . . might . . have won more games had Sage started instead of Carr.

But again, Kubes has shown me anough already, that I'm willing to see what he can do with Carr for the rest of the season before I call it a lost cause.

You aren't planning on dying tomorrow, are ya?:rolleyes:

Porky
11-07-2006, 06:05 PM
Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk


And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

I'm not sure why I am responding to your clueless insult laden retort, but here goes.

Most of your examples are from another era as Vinny succintly pointed out. But, just to show you how stupid your argument is, let's take a couple of the more recent ones you mentioned. Troy Aikman put up 3445 yards, threw for 23 touchdown, with 14 picks in year 4, not year 5. Drew Bledsoe put up 4086 yards, threw for 27 Touchdown, with 15 int in year 4. So, take your own weak ass argument some where else.

hollywood_texan
11-07-2006, 06:06 PM
Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk


And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

How many of those guys lived up to their complete expectation? Most of them didn't.

By the way, Troy Aikman? I think that guy won two Super Bowls before his 5th year. So, I think that is one of your examples that be can pulled.

Carr was a #1 pick in the draft is highly compensated. That is the reason for this discussion. If Carr was paid half the amount and a second day pick we probably wouldn't be discussing this because he wouldn't be on the team. In other words, he would be very expendable.

McNair and this Franchise have a lot wraped up in Carr to succeed from so many perspectives. If Carr doesn't come through, there is going to be a lot discussion how he just kept getting chances but didn't come through. McNair is so far into this thing with Carr that he will probably ride this thing out for the remainder of Carr's contract. Why not, lose a game like last week and people are satisfied.

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 06:06 PM
Just throwing a bunch of names out and insulting Porky isn't much of an argument.

Agreed--if you're going to toss names at least limit it to successes. Brooks is on his way out of the NFL for instance.

PS--Aikman went to the pro-bowl his 3rd, 4th, 5th, ... years in the league so that hardly qualifies for waiting for his 5th year. Really need to be careful when throwing around "weak ass" and that kind of stuff.

ArlingtonTexan
11-07-2006, 06:07 PM
Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk


And that is just the letters a and b....please take your weak ass argument some where else.

Just because a QB played 5 years, does not prove anything. The team has to be expecting something different from what they had seen on the fied.

Seems like Troy aikman was a Superbowl QB five years into his career. I won't bother after that.

The point is the Texans are betting the exception not the rule when it comes to Carr. On the field, he has been an average, inconstistent player. the Texans are hoping for him to become a different type player nearly 70 starts into is his career. Very rare.

BTW, it is always a good thing to understand the point before trying to insult someone.

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 06:07 PM
70.92 QB rating stat that TexansFanatic laid down. QB rating is a totally useless stat imo. Give me a guy who takes some shots downfield and throws some TD's and a few INT's over a guy who throws nothing but 4 yard passes and has to have 18 play drives to score. The latter gets the better rating....but isn't always the better QB.

Sorry--thought you were talking about me. Self-aggrandizement urge. Bradshaw did take a long time to develop though.

Vinny
11-07-2006, 06:09 PM
Sorry--thought you were talking about me. Self-aggrandizement urge. Bradshaw did take a long time to develop though.no prob...for every one you may misread, I can top it with a dozen for me... :lightbulb:

Bradshaw was certainly a late bloomer. I forget who said it but someone once said that Bradshaw couldn't spell cat if you spotted him a C and an A. He wasn't the sharpest prospect in the QB drawer.

hollywood_texan
11-07-2006, 06:10 PM
The point is the Texans are betting the exception not the rule when it comes to Carr.

Very well put. My thoughts exactly.

I wish I would have put it that straight-forward myself at lot earlier.

hollywood_texan
11-07-2006, 06:11 PM
I forget who said it but someone once said that Bradshaw couldn't spell cat if you spotted him a C and an A. He wasn't the sharpest prospect in the QB drawer.

It was another Hollywood guy, Hollywood Henderson from Austin, Texas.

I from Austin, Texas myself.

That is probably were the similarties end.

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 06:14 PM
It was another Hollywood guy, Hollywood Henderson from Austin, Texas.

I from Austin, Texas myself.

That is probably were the similarties probably end.

While we are playing can you name games, can anyone name someone who pissed away more talent than Hollywood Henderson? The guy was a playmaker and then done.

Of course then he went and won the lottery twice.

SESupergenius
11-07-2006, 06:16 PM
70.92 QB rating stat that TexansFanatic laid down. QB rating is a totally useless stat imo. Give me a guy who takes some shots downfield and throws some TD's and a few INT's over a guy who throws nothing but 4 yard passes and has to have 18 play drives to score. The latter gets the better rating....but isn't always the better QB.

I contend that the QB rating should have fumbles and/or fumbles lost equated into that stat. It's still a very good measuring stick if the QB has lot of attempts to go on. You can't just say that "oh he threw for 70% of his passes, but still isn't a good QB." Carr has done well to find open receivers, but hasn't done well in keeping the ball and scoring points.

There is nothing I've seen so far that makes me think that he can't continue to improve and get the job done. If anyone is basing Rosenfels performance on preseason and late "trash" time against Tennessee then you can't discount Carr's 70% in regular games and his offensive score late against the Colts. I for one would love to see how Rosenfels deals a good Giants D or each QB have equal time in equal situations, I just don't see that until Carr falls out of favor.

SESupergenius
11-07-2006, 06:18 PM
no prob...for every one you may misread, I can top it with a dozen for me... :lightbulb:

Bradshaw was certainly a late bloomer. I forget who said it but someone once said that Bradshaw couldn't spell cat if you spotted him a C and an A. He wasn't the sharpest prospect in the QB drawer.

Wasn't the Redskins' Williams a dumb QB too, but somehow has a ring.

Porky
11-07-2006, 06:20 PM
Just because a QB played 5 years, does not prove anything. The team has to be expecting something different from what they had seen on the fied.

Seems like Troy aikman was a Superbowl QB five years into his career. I won't bother after that.

The point is the Texans are betting the exception not the rule when it comes to Carr. On the field, he has been an average, inconstistent player. the Texans are hoping for him to become a different type player nearly 70 starts into is his career. Very rare.

BTW, it is always a good thing to understand the point before trying to insult someone.

Very well said, and that was my overarching point. There may be the proverbial needle in the haystack, so I will rephrase my point slightly and say it is rare indeed, and that is with one coach, or multiple coaches for one QB to get 70 starts just to show he can play. Now, we can debate this all day long, but if someone wants to argue this point, argue it like infantrycak and texansfanatic, not osso, who decided it would be better to flame me, then make like a donkey and make a complete ass of himself.

Vinny
11-07-2006, 06:20 PM
Wasn't the Redskins' Williams a dumb QB too, but somehow has a ring.
I think he was just black. The league still had some issues back then when it came to black QB's. He turned Tampa Bay around and went on to win a SB with the Skins. The Bucs were laughing stocks till they drafted Doug Williams. He took a historically bad Buc team to the playoffs.

edited to add this...

Williams was the 17th overall pick of the 1978 draft, chosen by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers out of Grambling State. He led them to three playoff appearances and one NFC title game from 1979 to 1982, but an acrimonious contract dispute with owner Hugh Culverhouse led Williams to leave the Bucs and the NFL to play in the United States Football League. His 31-34-1 regular season record, and 1-3 playoff record made him the best quarterback in Buc history. The Bucs, who had never been to the playoffs before Williams arrived, had gone to the playoffs three times in four years and played in the 1979 NFC Championship Game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Williams_(football_player)

Runner
11-07-2006, 06:22 PM
Good discussion. We got through a "pros and cons" of some aspect of Carr with very few cries of "lover" or "hater" and no deleted posts. Not bad at all.

Osso
11-07-2006, 06:26 PM
You must be retarded...all I did was point out many more qb's who have been given a chance to succeed. You are the moron who made the original post asking for qb's. I gave them to you. Don't try to yank me into your bs.

You want to hate on carr so be it. But the fact remains that many qbs that don't have his ability, have been given time to grow into "decent" qb's. So stfu.

not to mention, but I think he is already decent.

Double Barrel
11-07-2006, 06:31 PM
Lay up--Terry Bradshaw.

You could have put Mickey Mouse at QB with that offensive talent and the Steel Curtain defense and they'd still have won multiple championships.

Put Bradshaw on one of those expansion teams of that era and I have no doubt he'd be considered a has-been from way back when. He certainly wouldn't be blabbing every Sunday morning on Fox's pre-game.

Troy Aikman

Ken Anderson

Steve Bartkowski

Sammy Baugh

Pete Beathard

Jeff Blake

George Blanda

Drew Bledsoe

Terry Bradshaw

Bubby Brister

John Brodie

Aaron Brooks

Ed Brown

Mark Brunell

Adrian Burk

With a few exceptions, way to pick out a list of loser QBs to support a pro-DC argument. :um:

Runner
11-07-2006, 06:31 PM
Good discussion. We got through a "pros and cons" of some aspect of Carr with very few cries of "lover" or "hater" and no deleted posts. Not bad at all.

I may have to take this all back.

Vinny
11-07-2006, 06:32 PM
I may have to take this all back.

I took care of osso, apparently he doesn't take a hint well.

kcwilson
11-07-2006, 06:41 PM
Two left feet don't make a right. Ah, yes, but three left turns = a right turn.

Moral of the story, if you screw up enough, then things sometimes accidentally work out.

Honoring Earl 34
11-07-2006, 06:46 PM
In my opinion in order for Carr to reach his ceiling , he has to be extremely competitive . If you look at his body of work he's been here five years , he's made a lot of money and has gotten sacked 250 or so ... in his mind does he have something to prove .

jgl35
11-07-2006, 07:15 PM
While we are playing can you name games, can anyone name someone who pissed away more talent than Hollywood Henderson? The guy was a playmaker and then done.

Of course then he went and won the lottery twice.

Dwane Thomas RB Dallas

DRAMA
11-07-2006, 07:19 PM
Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere.

Again, I like Carr but I completely agree with this! I'll say it over and over - it's the 'feel' of the game not the arm. Pro QB's can throw the football but the ones who can't 'feel' tha game are usually out of the league. Some learn it over time. Maybe Carr could learn it over time - maybe Sage has now learned it. If I HAD, ABSOLUTELY HAD to win ONE SINGLE GAME.....

who would I start? Honestly....I go Sage. I like DC but I'd start Sage because of the 'feel.'

The Pencil Neck
11-07-2006, 08:19 PM
One thing that is very important in life is realizing when you are in over your head and doing something about it. Self-evaluation is so critical and it seems to me from what I have read that Carr doesn't do that.

It seems as though Carr went through his first 4 years on autopilot not questioning a thing from Capers or getting help somewhere else.

If I was the #1 pick in the draft and with a $60 million dollar contract, I would like to think that I could realize my shortcomings and find some way to fix them despite coaching staff or talent around me.

It seems like Carr just waits around for someone to tell him something than trying to figuring it out on his own.


I don't know. I wonder about this. I wonder how many people are really pro-active in their jobs and to what degree. I mean, I'm very good at what I do but I got on a 6-month contract that was extended for 13 years and during that time, I did very little to improve my skill set. I was well paid and comfortable and had other outside interests that I spent most of my time pursuing.

I still don't take much time improving my skill set.

I lost that contract and went back into the work force. Got another job. There was some skills that would help me do my job better and I picked up those skills. But as soon as I got comfy again, I stopped learning except as it pleases me.

For a kid coming out of college who has been coached his entire life... I don't know what a person in that position would expect. I can imagine coming out of college and then putting myself at the coaches' disposal and just doing everything they told me to do because they were the authorities. Granted, I can also imagine studying my ass off and trying to figure out different ways to improve my game.

I just don't know if I can bag on Carr for trusting his coaches to be doing what they're supposed to be doing and training him.

thunderkyss
11-07-2006, 08:31 PM
Whats the catch? Sage is probably at the peak of his QB career. Kubiak knows QBs, and I get the feeling that what we see from Sage is abuot as good as you could ever expect.


Lets also not forget that Dan Reeves, highly touted QB evaluator, and someone Mike Vick recently quoted in a positive light, also made an independent evalution of Carr and liked the potential.



First, how can you put DanReeves & Mike Vick's names so close together, and have us think highly of his QB evaluating skills??

Next, where does this idea about Sage come from?? He's been in the league one year longer than David, there is no reason to believe that his upside isn't as great as David's....... just because we hadn't heard of him before doesn't mean he can't play. We've all seen him play, and know he's got some skills.

He actually looks more like a good JakePlummer than David ever will....... not knocking on David, but I don't think Plummer is the end all be all of what a QB should look like, and I think David can be a better QB than Jake was last year.

As far as I know, Sage has never been cut.... he's been picked up by one team after another thinking that he showed promise, and if what we heard two Sunday's ago about Kubiak & Shanahan evaluating Sage is true, then we should all understand that Sage was brought over as insurance, if it is proven that David can't take us where we want to go.

In the event that we decide our future & David's future will follow seperate paths, then don't be expecting to look for a franchise QB in the '07 draft, unless Kubiak sees something special..... like a Cutler.

The Pencil Neck
11-07-2006, 08:37 PM
So, let me honor you guys, and say that out of the last 35 years, we have two examples out of the hundreds of starters during that time period. I think that makes my point quite nicely, thanks. :ok:

I think I've missed the argument so I might be misunderstanding the point here but...

Most teams are very reactive with their QB's. Most QB's don't get a chance to blossom later in their careers anymore (I think it was more common in the earlier days). But there are guys like Brad Johnson, Steve Young, Rich Gannon, Hasselbeck, and (I think) many others, that really didn't blossom until after 5 years... just not with the same team that drafted them.

Usually, if a team is consistently losing, they place the blame at the foot of the QB even if it doesn't really belong there. And then there are guys like McNair that really aren't that impressive statistically who get to play for years because they're on a winning team.

If this wasn't the point of the discussion, I apologize.

Wolf
11-07-2006, 08:45 PM
I think what has hurt David (besides all the sacks) is have we ever really had a legit TE until this year?

Aikman's name was mentioned but Novacek bailed him out time and time again in key situations.

Here's to Daniels becoming a legit TE


IMO for any QB, TE is his security blanket esp. when they are rookies..

David has to get reprogramed of all that was learned.. I was scanning through stats and for what it is worth..

what little I scanned.. he is on pace to break the Texan completion record,TD record(record is 16 he is on pace for 18), yards(record is 3531 yards,he's on pace for 3400) and lower is Int rates. (record is 15 he is on pace for 10)

I know you stat guys will comeback with wins/losses.. well fine. but Carr is improving and it takes time for Kubiak to work the scheme with this offense same as smith on the defense.. players have to "play" and not "think" ..we are still in the thinking stage.

BTW stats start on page 5
http://www.houstontexans.com/wpimages/uploaded/pdfs/texans_records_2005.pdf

Wolf
11-07-2006, 08:48 PM
my previous post wasn't intended to be a "Carr homer" post, but many had good feelings about Carr after 2004 ..and that is where he is ...

AJ is having a season also like 2004 ...


I am just trying to make a point that it is going to take time on this offense. Next season.. well be better light it up :redtowel:

thunderkyss
11-07-2006, 08:51 PM
What stat? Not a real appropriate time to pull out the anti-stat argument--none were referenced. Bradshaw got benched at least once and I believe more than that during that time frame. He was definitely a gamer but had very poor judgment to begin with. As for stats--there is no way you can spin 6 TD's and 24 INT's into a good thing in any era.

I'm not a big Bradshaw fan..... but I think you've got most of it right. I don't know that he was drafted #1 overall, and to be the "face" of the Steelers. I remember him talking about the guy that he played behind...... actually, I think he played behind two guys, as he was more of a project. As you said, a gamer with an arm, and a strong will to win.

But I remember he said the guy in front of him was way more talented, and point for point a better QB. But he had personal issues that kept him off the field. I love Terry, because he says that he wishes that guy had gotten his stuff together, and played the game of football instead of ruining his life the way he had.

Even though that would have meant that Terry would never had been given the chance to do what he did with his career.

Wolf
11-07-2006, 08:53 PM
I actually like Terry on Fox pregame.. he is corky but helps the show out..

also .. wasn't he and the steelers in one of the Smokey and the bandit movies?
I recall something about Mean Joe Green flipping Sherrif Bufords car over.

ArlingtonTexan
11-07-2006, 08:57 PM
I think I've missed the argument so I might be misunderstanding the point here but...

Most teams are very reactive with their QB's. Most QB's don't get a chance to blossom later in their careers anymore (I think it was more common in the earlier days). But there are guys like Brad Johnson, Steve Young, Rich Gannon, Hasselbeck, and (I think) many others, that really didn't blossom until after 5 years... just not with the same team that drafted them.

Usually, if a team is consistently losing, they place the blame at the foot of the QB even if it doesn't really belong there. And then there are guys like McNair that really aren't that impressive statistically who get to play for years because they're on a winning team.

If this wasn't the point of the discussion, I apologize.

In my mind the difference is that most of these guys did not start and play heavily for five years. They spent a lot of time on the bench watching and learning before they were thrown in. I would say Steve Young is the closest exception, but he still spent significant bench time after his USFL/Tampa stiints. Tony romo serves as a closer model than does Carr.

Osso
11-07-2006, 09:03 PM
Just throwing a bunch of names out and insulting Porky isn't much of an argument.


Actually it's his argument that no decent qb's are given 5 years on the same team to perform well. I just gave him 15 qb's with 24 more letters to go. All of them medicore until thier 5th year or more. Some of them never being more than average.
His argument is weak...if you think that's an insult. I apologize.

TexansFanatic
11-07-2006, 09:06 PM
In my mind the difference is that most of these guys did not start and play heavily for five years. They spent a lot of time on the bench watching and learning before they were thrown in. I would say Steve Young is the closest exception, but he still spent significant bench time after his USFL/Tampa stiints. Tony romo serves as a closer model than does Carr.

Say what? Which quarterbacks are you talking about. Testaverde started right away and played on most snaps. Bradshaw was benched and his coach rotated him with Terry Hanratty, but he started right away...

thunderkyss
11-07-2006, 09:12 PM
McNair and this Franchise have a lot wraped up in Carr to succeed from so many perspectives. If Carr doesn't come through, there is going to be a lot discussion how he just kept getting chances but didn't come through. McNair is so far into this thing with Carr that he will probably ride this thing out for the remainder of Carr's contract. Why not, lose a game like last week and people are satisfied.

I'm definitely getting a totally different read on this thing all together.

I think McNair asked all his candidates if they could win a Superbowl with Carr. I'm sure someone said, "Yes definitely" and another said, "absolutely not"

I think Kubiak said, "The kids got talent, but winning in this league isn't so much about Talent as it is heart. That's why you got that kid in the 4th round, that is doing things nobody expected him to do..... where other more talented prospects failed.

I can't tell you that I can turn David into the kind of player that will win the big one for you. But if you tell me you think that kid has the heart, and the will to take your franchise to a SuperBowl, I will do everyting in my power to prepare him for that.

But I need you to understand, if I say he can't do it, he can't do it."

I know most of that came out of a dream I had....... but that's what gets me through.

I know Carr will be afforded every opportunity to succeed.

But if he can't, we've got a plan B.

ArlingtonTexan
11-07-2006, 09:37 PM
Say what? Which quarterbacks are you talking about. Testaverde started right away and played on most snaps. Bradshaw was benched and his coach rotated him with Terry Hanratty, but he started right away...

Did you read the specific post i responded to?

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 09:49 PM
I contend that the QB rating should have fumbles and/or fumbles lost equated into that stat.

If you do that you need to include rushing and rushing TD's. Right now it is set up as a measuring stick for passing--have to make it into an overall stat which frankly would be hard to balance.

infantrycak
11-07-2006, 09:53 PM
I'm not a big Bradshaw fan..... but I think you've got most of it right. I don't know that he was drafted #1 overall, and to be the "face" of the Steelers.

Bradshaw was selected #1 in 1970--if he wasn't selected to be their face, he certainly wasn't selected to be their hair.

TexansFanatic
11-07-2006, 09:53 PM
Did you read the specific post i responded to?

Nope, you caught me. I suffer with A.D.D. My apologies.

The Pencil Neck
11-07-2006, 10:05 PM
Say what? Which quarterbacks are you talking about. Testaverde started right away and played on most snaps. Bradshaw was benched and his coach rotated him with Terry Hanratty, but he started right away...

He was talking about the QB's I mentioned.

dat_boy_yec
11-07-2006, 10:30 PM
My take on this is this. Carr was programmed to fail over the course of four yrs. How long does it take for someone to deprogram? I'm thinking the time varies from person to person. Kubiak said that David plays well at first, but later in the game revert's to his old habits. A comparison would be someone who goes partying and drinks, then while still partying tries to quit. He may not be successful the first few times, but then he'll start not drinking at the beginning of the parties but reverting to his old forms near the end and if he/she perseveres after much effort can enjoy partying without drinking at all. That's kind of what I see in Carr with the games being the party and his mistakes/habits being the drinking. There have been times this season where Carr has shown poise and presense in the pocket, but he hasn't gotten to the point where A) it's consistent B) or natural for him. I think this is what Kubiak was referring too. Carr is in the process of deprograming himself so he has to be conscious of what he's doing. The only way to have success with this is repetitions as it should come more naturally to him. Even though Carr plays while making a lot of mistakes everybody seems to forget that he threw for a little bit over 3500 yds. two season's ago. You can't blame Kubiak, logic would be that if Carr eliminates his bad habit's his production would go up exponentially. I see improvement's by Carr this season and I think he'll be playing much better as the season goes on, but he need's a little more time 4 yrs. of doing something is hard to overcome.

Double Barrel
11-07-2006, 10:36 PM
Again, I like Carr but I completely agree with this! I'll say it over and over - it's the 'feel' of the game not the arm. Pro QB's can throw the football but the ones who can't 'feel' tha game are usually out of the league. Some learn it over time. Maybe Carr could learn it over time - maybe Sage has now learned it. If I HAD, ABSOLUTELY HAD to win ONE SINGLE GAME.....

who would I start? Honestly....I go Sage. I like DC but I'd start Sage because of the 'feel.'

I agree...if this season was about winning enough games for a playoff run...which I can understand the pov that we should be doing anyway, especially after four brutal years of losing.

But I guess that's why we don't get paid the big bucks to be a pro HC. I honestly think that Kubiak sees Carr as a project, and right or wrong, that's more than a one season proposition to develop. Kubiak's well trained eye and professional opinion carries more weight than all of us combined, so he must see the potential for a lot more upside than Sage would provide over the long run.

Sage looks good now, though. He appears to have some intangibles, in that he's got the pocket presence and quick decision making ability that produces positive results. I suppose someone could argue that he's never had a starting job, but then again, he's never had Kubiak for a coach, either. And Rosenfels is a Kubiak hire.

thunderkyss
11-07-2006, 10:43 PM
My take on this is this. Carr was programmed to fail over the course of four yrs. How long does it take for someone to deprogram? I'm thinking the time varies from person to person. Kubiak said that David plays well at first, but later in the game revert's to his old habits. A comparison would be.............

A comparison would be Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Joey Harrington, and a bunch of other promising young talents.......

Look, sticking with David was the right thing to do. As far as decency & honorability goes.

But nobody gets a chance like this in the NFL anymore.

I hope like hell that what we are doing with Carr will stop this bad habit that NFl teams in the salary cap era have developed, and stop all this quitting on these young men that enter the draft.

How many QBs has Detroit, Oakland, SF, and Arizona ruined in the last 10 years?? it's ridiculous.

Hopefully, what we are doing, and what Dallas & SanDiego has done will slow this down a little.

Texans_Chick
11-08-2006, 12:11 AM
There are too many posts in this thread that make me want to projectile vomit for me to identify them all with specificity, much less respond to them.

In sum, massive speculative rhapsodizing makes me queasy.

I just felt compelled to say that before moving on to the next thread.

Carry on.:cool:

phan1
11-08-2006, 01:15 AM
Honestly, it's hard to compare him to any other high draft QB because I just haven't seen anyone like him. He doesn't remind me of a Bradshaw, a Testeverte, or a Leaf at all. He's just... David Carr.

And I can't believe we're still talking about Carr's character and heart. We can talk about if he's "good enough" all day long, but honestly, I don't see how we can question David's character after his last game. Seriously, he's been nothing but a class guy ever since he was drafted. Oh yeah, I guess you all want QBs who gets "fired up" and make dumb comments about coaches and players after every loss. I guess he should have thrown his lineman under the bus after every game like Manning did in the playoffs huh? :rolleyes: It's all about if he's good enough. Wheather Carr really wants to win games and put in the effort to win games is unquestionable. Off the field, he's been everything you could ask for out of a franchise QB, and it's really disgusting how people can assume he doesn't really want to win games for this city.

I think what people have a problem with is that he's 100% player and 0% coach. That's pretty obvious. He's never going to get down on a player for a bad play like a coach is supposed to do, and he's never going to question the coach's gameplan eithe. He's the player, not the coach. Someone said it took him 3 years to complain about getting sacked for gawd's sake! He really has a "soldier's mentality" of sorts. "Tell me what to do and where to be and I'll do it with 100% effort. But coaching and game-planning is your job. I'm just here to do what you tell me to." He's a guy who obviously needs coaching, and while that's not necessarily a bad thing, it is a very bad thing if this guy has no coach. Personnally, it'd be nice to have a guy who who holds more people accountable (including coaches) and is more proactive about what he thinks is wrong and what he wants to do to fix it. But hey, that's why we brought in Kubiak right?

And I can't really fault him for being who he is. 3 kids is a lot to handle and he doesn't have time to be both a coach and a player. He's not a Peyton Manning who's going to go home and spend hours on hours studying game tape on top of a long, hard practice. Carr is going to go in, get his work done, and go home. Is that a bad thing? Maybe... But Carr is definitely going to go as far as Kubiak will take him, cause he's not going to get there on his own.

TK_Gamer
11-08-2006, 01:49 AM
In Kubiak's comments he also said Carr does not audible, that is not part of our game, I believe he said, so we know more about why Carr does some of the things he does. I was impressed with the fact AJ finally helped out his QB by going after the catch instead of letting the ball come to him. All in all, last week was a winnable game against another team with more talent then we have. The Titan game was our gift to them.
:homer:
Just because I am a I need to bring it up that we can still finish with a winning record, and I for one believe.

actually he said HE doesnt audible, not carr . he said he likes to have called in plays and not change them.

painekiller
11-08-2006, 02:22 AM
I think what people have a problem with is that he's 100% player and 0% coach. That's pretty obvious. He's never going to get down on a player for a bad play like a coach is supposed to do, and he's never going to question the coach's gameplan eithe. He's the player, not the coach. Someone said it took him 3 years to complain about getting sacked for gawd's sake! [B]He really has a "soldier's mentality" of sorts. "Tell me what to do and where to be and I'll do it with 100% effort.

If he is not calling a player out, what do you call his hissy fit when Lundy dropped the 3rd down ball on the opening drive? I call it showing a player up. but that is just me.

michaelm
11-08-2006, 05:37 AM
If he is not calling a player out, what do you call his hissy fit when Lundy dropped the 3rd down ball on the opening drive? I call it showing a player up. but that is just me.

you may be right on that...

Wolf
11-08-2006, 06:16 AM
not sure, Carr gets questioned on this board for not being a leader, his "hissy" fit IMO shows that he wants to exceed and expects others around him to exceed.

I would expect that after a benching on the previous week.

HJam72
11-08-2006, 08:32 AM
So, it's settled then. In order to be an effective leader for this team, Carr needs to throw as many "hissy fits" as possible. :ok:

Why didn't the Carr haters just say so? idonno:

ArlingtonTexan
11-08-2006, 09:16 AM
He was talking about the QB's I mentioned.

One thing I did forget to mention in that reply was that if I were to go back and redo history, I would have sit Carr for that first year or so. More than the sidearm stuff that many of us worried about, the fact that he is still having footwork and technique issues so late leads me to believe that good footwork never became automatic. As I think it out, the sidearm stuff may even be related to footwork stuff, but I am not QB coach.

thunderkyss
11-08-2006, 11:47 AM
not sure, Carr gets questioned on this board for not being a leader, his "hissy" fit IMO shows that he wants to exceed and expects others around him to exceed.

I would expect that after a benching on the previous week.

Carr will never be an effective leader until he cuts his mistakes to a minimum. It's hard to expect someone to play better for you, if you keep botching things.

NATHANHALE
11-08-2006, 12:00 PM
In his 5th year, Carr has these problems--

1) can not read defenses
2) has bad foot work
3) poor pocket presence/management
4) weak verticle passing game
5) side arm delivery
6) 'head/mental' issues
7) turn over issues

I'm personally looking forward to Kubiak 'turning' Carr 'around,' so he can lead the Texans to the 'big' game!!:cowboy1:

Buckle
11-08-2006, 12:52 PM
I believe all these problems are due to the poor poor coaching that the Texans offensive staff provided Carr with. He seems to be attempting to make himself better and doing everything he can now to change because the HEAD COACH was telling him he was doing things all wrong!! Now what if the previous HEAD COACH was telling Carr that he too was doing things RIGHT and to keep doing them but we just need to work on our timing, route running, accuracy, etc?? It seems like from everything I have read the Texans 1st staff failed Carr miserably and that his problems are directly their fault! If they were good coaches and told him that he was moving his feet wrong or making the wrong progressions then I feel from what I have heard of Carr's work ethic he would ask and work on what they told him to do! I like Kubiak's confidence in Carr and how he seems to firmly believe that Carr can become a dominant qb in this league, and you know what as long as Kubiak believes this, then I too as a Texans fan will believe it! Kubiak's record with top tier qb's and the success those qb's under him had makes me look foreward to the day when it all clicks for Carr and his shoots to the top tier of the qb pack and our team becomes a powerhouse in this league!

Texanfan4ever
11-08-2006, 12:59 PM
So, it's settled then. In order to be an effective leader for this team, Carr needs to throw as many "hissy fits" as possible. :ok:

Why didn't the Carr haters just say so? idonno:

LOL :stirpot: :wacko:

coachdent
11-08-2006, 01:18 PM
Pretty fair analysis, although I might quibble a bit on the details. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have been wanting to say this since Sunday, so here goes.

If Sage had started the last two games start to finsh, this team would be 4-4, and we would be in the playoff hunt. With Carr, we are 2-6, and going nowhere. I have never seen a QB get 5 full years at one stop to prove himself. Name one other QB anywhere that has gotten 5 full years to prove he can just be a decent QB. Not even great, just decent. Name one that has had this much time with one team. I dare ya to try. Carr has proven he will never lead this particular team anywhere. Until Kubes can be honest with himself, and forget about his ego, this team is stuck in this hellish black hole we are in.

4-4 with Sage? When pigs fly! C'mon man! Quit sipping hte koolaid!

Sage came in down three scores against a team that was in a dead prevent defense. Big frickin' deal. He completes a few passes.

The most popular guy on a losing team is always the backup quarterback.

Second Honeymoon
11-08-2006, 01:34 PM
Carr has a lot of inherent flaws in his mechanics. Everyone knows that, and contrary to much of the blame being laid around, those poor mechanics were evident years before he ever fell under the previous regime's tutelage. The Cape Asserley crew, in their infinent wisdom, believed they could work around those flaws and he could be effective. Obviously, it was an abject failure.

Kubiak comes in and starts to pick apart Carr's game and make him make adjustments. Lo and behold, Carr starts looking more like a quality NFL QB. Kubiak has already helped Carr's footwork and pace at which he plays. He played in warp speed against the Titans, looked like garbage, and was benched because of it. Although I thought the benching was poorly timed, he sent the message. Carr comes back last week and shows improvement again though comes up short. Now kubiak starts talking about the remaining deficiencies and not showing that he is happy yet with David's play or development. I love it. Kubiak is finally holding the kid accountable for his job.

We have to realize that we finally got a coach who is working to improve Carr and polish the rough edges. We have to be patient as fans. Carr is basically a 1st or 2nd year player as far as his own development goes. It's a sad reality but still its reality. At least Kubiak is working on the problems which is more than can be said for the previous regime or Carr himself for that matter.

Go Kubiak Go

Doug from The Woodlands

CoastalTexan
11-08-2006, 01:51 PM
I wouldn't mind drafting a QB 3rd or 4th round to groom, I'm not a Carr basher but I like an insurance policy and a QB for Kubiak to call his own. I just wonder what he could do with a QB if he had him from the start.

phan1
11-08-2006, 03:50 PM
It is also worth noting that the QB position is played totally differently under the WCO. His footwork should be tied to his reads and the WR routes. He's really learning how to play the QB position all over again. It's totally different from Palmer's offense (on paper at least).

NATHANHALE
11-08-2006, 04:49 PM
...well, there are no guarantees Carr will 'turn the corner,' as even Kubiak has had a couple that 'crashed and burned.' It's going to be interesting to see how long Carr's 'rope' is as he shows some form of improvement every week but we still are not at a level where his 'play' can lead us to wins. I mean, are we talking this year and next or even longer?

Too, speaking of time, I'm sure Kubiak knows when to say, 'enough is enough.' "Next..."...doesn't he?:confused:

Porky
11-08-2006, 06:15 PM
Interesting that apparently the Jags are ready to dump Garrard and pull the plug on Leftwich (http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+Way+We+Hear+It/default.htm?mode=afcsouth) after 4 years, but we are still plugging away with Carr after 5 years. They realize they won't win big with either. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Carr gets an 8 million ext, and free reign on the starters job. :stirpot:

The Pencil Neck
11-08-2006, 06:17 PM
unfortunately after the season ends is when he will say enough is enough. IMO Carr was ruined by a bad coach and probably too hard to fix for kubiak.

I probably sound like a broken record but my biggest fear with Carr has always that there was just too much accumulated damage from the previous 4 years to recover from. He's made some amazing strides forward, much quicker than I expected. Kubiak has done an amazing reclamation project so far... if he thinks he can continue to improve Carr, then I'm all for him continuing. But if he thinks we need to go in another direction... I'd love to see him get his hands on a rookie and develop them from scratch and have Carr be a caretaker for a couple of years.

Hulk75
11-08-2006, 06:35 PM
Interesting that apparently the Jags are ready to dump Garrard and pull the plug on Leftwich (http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+Way+We+Hear+It/default.htm?mode=afcsouth) after 4 years, but we are still plugging away with Carr after 5 years. They realize they won't win big with either. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Carr gets an 8 million ext, and free reign on the starters job. :stirpot:

Byron Leftwhich- Has a Hall of Fame HB, had a Hall of Fame WR in Jimmy Smith, to go a long with a 6-6 WR that runs a 4.3 Matt Jones, great Running game, tall WRs, a Vetran TE. AND A GREAT Defense!!!!! Since he has been there.

David Carr- Starts out on a expantion team!!!!!!! Gets drafted by the worst team in the NFL, no history in the Franchise, had one of the worst QB coaches in the league for 4 years. His own QB coach turned him into a scrambling QB because the Line was so bad (bad is the nice way to put it) when in college he was used to throwing the ball like Carson Palmer. Had a good Defense 1 year and that was when the Offense was in its 1st year yeppe! Corey Bradford/Jabar Gaffney- Here Dave these are your guys?????????.........Draft Andre GREAT! BUT they rolled coverage to his side for 2 years and no other WRs could make plays when they had to. Had a good running game BUT could not protect the QB.
FINALLY after 4 years of QB hell! He gets a QB coach that knows what the heck he is doing and a great Football mind in Gary Kubiak. ANd when he tells me that he is going to push Carr and make him a great QB then I believe him because his track record speaks for itself.

Yea there sircumstances are the same, give me a break, Carr would have won a Super Bowl with Jags by now.

Texan_Bill
11-08-2006, 07:03 PM
Interesting that apparently the Jags are ready to dump Garrard and pull the plug on Leftwich (http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/The+Way+We+Hear+It/default.htm?mode=afcsouth) after 4 years, but we are still plugging away with Carr after 5 years. They realize they won't win big with either. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Carr gets an 8 million ext, and free reign on the starters job. :stirpot:

Interesting comparison :ok: ............... NOT!!! :tease:

Kaiser Toro
11-08-2006, 07:05 PM
The Fresno Principle is a theory originated by Dr. Kaiser J. Toro which states that Quarterbacks within the National Collegiate Athletic Association advance to their highest level of competence, are then promoted to a level where they are incompetent, and then stay in that position.

Honoring Earl 34
11-08-2006, 07:22 PM
Yea there sircumstances are the same, give me a break, Carr would have won a Super Bowl with Jags by now.
__________________

OK and I can throw a football 90 yards in the air .

ridn4_8
11-08-2006, 07:24 PM
Here it goes again....all this bashing of David Carr...lol. David Carr is NOT the only person that makes up the offense. It seems that the failings of the offense all seem to be the QB's fault. There was a statement earlier about Bradshaw's numbers and how they compared to todays QB's (Couldn't find it to quote it). First off...as it was stated in a follow up post, the passing game was not near as prevalent as it is today. Second...and this one is a shocker....The Steelers had an offense that depended on the TEAM...not just Bradshaw!!

I could give a rat's butt if the QB is Carr or Sage...I think Kubes has been around long enough to recognize the qualities he needs in a QB that will develop to his system. And if the man chooses Carr, then so be it. I think we've all seen that he isn't afraid to do what needs to be done for the team. Yes, I agree that Carr has quite a few kinks to be worked out, and according to the coaches, this is coming along nicely. Maybe not as quick as some of them may like...certainly not quick enough for some of the fans...but coming along nonetheless. I think the correct word here, as was mentioned previously, is "deprogram" DC. Basically, Kubiak needs to have DC "unlearn" the stuff he learned under Capers regime, and have him learn to do it his way.

sleepwalker
11-11-2006, 01:18 PM
Well said.

But hey, what are message boards for?