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TexanTider
11-02-2006, 11:51 PM
I've been a Carr fan but if he drops the rock one more time I'm gonna be sick. I don't care about missed blocks, or even if Godzilla drops out of the sky unblocked....Hold on to the rock

AustinJB
11-03-2006, 12:03 AM
I've been a Carr fan but if he drops the rock one more time I'm gonna be sick. I don't care about missed blocks, or even if Godzilla drops out of the sky unblocked....Hold on to the rock

I agree, and what frustrates me is that most of the hits that are forcing the fumbles don't even seem to be big hits. It seems like someone will just hit his arm or leg from the other side and the ball pops loose. He's taken bigger hits during his career than the ones he's taken this year and been able to hold on to the ball.

This makes me think that he just hasn't had the awareness of what is going on the field around him. It's like he has his head up his @$$ and doesn't realize that someone is near him, then they "touch" him and he loses the ball.:brickwall

HJam72
11-03-2006, 01:29 AM
Getting hit in the arms will do that more than getting pummeled on a hard hit (assuming you don't pass out or something), but no excuses because he certainly does fumble too much and I'm getting tired of it too.

That LB for Chicago (Urlacher?) gets a lot of good tackles and causes fumbles that way, but people say he doesn't hit hard enough. You see what I'm saying? He stops runners and causes fumbles. Who cares if he doesn't make popping sounds when he hits them?

tsip
11-03-2006, 02:12 AM
"and been able to hold on to the ball."

As other posters have pointed out, Carr has had a fumbling problem his entire NFL career--62 fumbles, 65 games.:brickwall

phan1
11-03-2006, 05:49 AM
"and been able to hold on to the ball."

As other posters have pointed out, Carr has had a fumbling problem his entire NFL career--62 fumbles, 65 games.:brickwall

That's really alarming. Once a fumbler always a fumbler IMO. Hopefully I'm wrong. I remember some guy made a ridiculous system on grading QBs with the least mistakes. Carr was #2 on that list...:rolleyes:

HJam72
11-03-2006, 07:25 AM
That's really alarming. Once a fumbler always a fumbler IMO. Hopefully I'm wrong. I remember some guy made a ridiculous system on grading QBs with the least mistakes. Carr was #2 on that list...:rolleyes:

I'm afraid that's proving more true everyday with QBs in particular. :brickwall

eric138
11-03-2006, 07:55 AM
small hands?

Maybe he doesn't have the monkey fingers needed to wrap around the ball.

Texan_Bill
11-03-2006, 10:49 AM
I remember the same discussions (albeit not on message boards) going on about Warren Moon - who still holds the NFL record.

HOU-TEX
11-03-2006, 11:00 AM
small hands?

Maybe he doesn't have the monkey fingers needed to wrap around the ball.

Or...the person doing his manicures is leaving a residue on his hands causing him to fumble. Or maybe when he begins to sweat during a game the gel in his hair is mixed with his sweat which inturn ends up in his hands while wiping his brow.:cool:

phan1
11-03-2006, 11:02 AM
I would compare the situation to Warner. Back when he manned the "greatest sho on turf", he had a great line to protect him. Ever since those 2 superbowls, he's been a turnover machine ever since. Our line might just have to simply get better to keep our fumbles down.

Runner
11-03-2006, 11:06 AM
I would compare the situation to Warner. Back when he manned the "greatest sho on turf", he had a great line to protect him. Ever since those 2 superbowls, he's been a turnover machine ever since. Our line might just have to simply get better to keep our fumbles down.


To me they are two independent requirements after 4 1/2 years.

1) Carr needs to be better.
2) The line needs to be better.

I'm tired of them being excuses for each other. Time to step up as individuals since we can't as a team.

eriadoc
11-03-2006, 11:53 AM
To me they are two independent requirements after 4 1/2 years.

1) Carr needs to be better.
2) The line needs to be better.

I'm tired of them being excuses for each other. Time to step up as individuals since we can't as a team.

I'm siding with this sentiment. Although, I will say, I have seen far too many times where the LT just whiffs and the end comes running around and smacks Carr's arm just as he's drawing back to throw. I put very few of those type fumbles on Carr. The ones this past week were on him, even though Wiegert was letting KVB into the backfield on a regular basis.

TexanTider
11-03-2006, 11:59 AM
There is no doubt that our line needs work but you can watch 50 other college quarterbacks on Saturday that have a better grasp of holding on to the ball..

Granted the pass rushers are not as good in college, but neither are the quarterbacks..

Double Barrel
11-03-2006, 12:54 PM
One would think that he'd be an expert on protecting the ball while being sacked. 200+ sacks in four seasons should have at least taught him that basic lesson.

The Pencil Neck
11-03-2006, 02:12 PM
One would think that he'd be an expert on protecting the ball while being sacked. 200+ sacks in four seasons should have at least taught him that basic lesson.

Unless he's lost all feeling in his hands after having them whacked so much.

Beer and Metal
11-03-2006, 02:24 PM
One would think that he'd be an expert on protecting the ball while being sacked. 200+ sacks in four seasons should have at least taught him that basic lesson.


I wonder what the fumble to sack ratio is. You'd think most of those fumbles would be sacks if he had held on to the ball.

noxiousdog
11-03-2006, 02:49 PM
I would compare the situation to Warner. Back when he manned the "greatest sho on turf", he had a great line to protect him. Ever since those 2 superbowls, he's been a turnover machine ever since. Our line might just have to simply get better to keep our fumbles down.


Warner broke his hand and hasn't been the same since.

eriadoc
11-03-2006, 03:48 PM
I wonder what the fumble to sack ratio is. You'd think most of those fumbles would be sacks if he had held on to the ball.

I don't know the answer to this, really, but it piqued my interest enough to go look up a few things. First off, Carr's lost 20 of the 62 fumbles. He's been sacked 228 times. I'm not sure how many of those sacks also resulted in fumbles, but there's definitely some overlap.

I was havin a hard time thinking of any QBs that played behind poor offensive lines and had any success, but there were a couple QBs that played behind some poor teams that had success later in their career. In today's ADHD world, those QBs wouldn't likely be given that shot anymore, but neverhteless ...

Randall Cunningham - His first five years as a starter for the Eagles, he endured 277 sacks and fumbled 57 times. He fumbled only 45 times over the next 10 years of his career.

John Elway - 1990 to 1994 was the worst stretch of Elway's career, with regards to sacks. He was sacked 209 times and fumbled 51 times.

I'm not sure what was going on with their teams during that span, but the rest of their careers turned out OK. I'm not sure too many QBs could have been on this Texans team from 2002 to present, coming in as a rookie, and done any better with the coaching and surrounding team during that time.

This is not intended to exonerate Carr in any way; I'm just saying, maybe there's some hope. Regardless who is at QB back there, they're going to need better protection that what this team has been offering for going on five years now.

bah007
11-03-2006, 03:51 PM
I don't know the answer to this, really, but it piqued my interest enough to go look up a few things. First off, Carr's lost 20 of the 62 fumbles. He's been sacked 228 times. I'm not sure how many of those sacks also resulted in fumbles, but there's definitely some overlap.

I was havin a hard time thinking of any QBs that played behind poor offensive lines and had any success, but there were a couple QBs that played behind some poor teams that had success later in their career. In today's ADHD world, those QBs wouldn't likely be given that shot anymore, but neverhteless ...

Randall Cunningham - His first five years as a starter for the Eagles, he endured 277 sacks and fumbled 57 times. He fumbled only 45 times over the next 10 years of his career.

John Elway - 1990 to 1994 was the worst stretch of Elway's career, with regards to sacks. He was sacked 209 times and fumbled 51 times.

I'm not sure what was going on with their teams during that span, but the rest of their careers turned out OK. I'm not sure too many QBs could have been on this Texans team from 2002 to present, coming in as a rookie, and done any better with the coaching and surrounding team during that time.

This is not intended to exonerate Carr in any way; I'm just saying, maybe there's some hope. Regardless who is at QB back there, they're going to need better protection that what this team has been offering for going on five years now.

It didnt matter who the QB was the first 3 years.

The line steadily gets better but it is still at the bottom of the league.

Meloy
11-03-2006, 03:52 PM
One would think that he'd be an expert on protecting the ball while being sacked. 200+ sacks in four seasons should have at least taught him that basic lesson.Maybe he is an expert. How many of those 200 + sacks led to fumbles? Maybe that is what we should look at.

Meloy
11-03-2006, 03:57 PM
I don't know the answer to this, really, but it piqued my interest enough to go look up a few things. First off, Carr's lost 20 of the 62 fumbles. He's been sacked 228 times. I'm not sure how many of those sacks also resulted in fumbles, but there's definitely some overlap.

I was havin a hard time thinking of any QBs that played behind poor offensive lines and had any success, but there were a couple QBs that played behind some poor teams that had success later in their career. In today's ADHD world, those QBs wouldn't likely be given that shot anymore, but neverhteless ...

Randall Cunningham - His first five years as a starter for the Eagles, he endured 277 sacks and fumbled 57 times. He fumbled only 45 times over the next 10 years of his career.

John Elway - 1990 to 1994 was the worst stretch of Elway's career, with regards to sacks. He was sacked 209 times and fumbled 51 times.

I'm not sure what was going on with their teams during that span, but the rest of their careers turned out OK. I'm not sure too many QBs could have been on this Texans team from 2002 to present, coming in as a rookie, and done any better with the coaching and surrounding team during that time.

This is not intended to exonerate Carr in any way; I'm just saying, maybe there's some hope. Regardless who is at QB back there, they're going to need better protection that what this team has been offering for going on five years now.These examples seem to indicate Carr and/or his blockers may turn it around soon. Let's hope.

edo783
11-03-2006, 05:23 PM
Eriadoc's post seems to indicat that there is a pretty strong direct correlation between the number of sacks and the number of fumbles.....go figure. Carr needs to be much better with the ball, but if we continue to not protect him, he will have a hard time protecting the ball. The line protects the QB and that then causes the ball to automatically be more protected. Don't protect the QB and ball is at risk as 300+ lb folks with bad intentions slam into the QB, often from a direction he can't see them from.

OzzO
11-03-2006, 05:50 PM
Good opinion by R. Justice (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4307596.html) in today's chronic

....After 66 starts, Carr is still making some of the same mistakes he made on day one. Yes, he was placed in some tough circumstances in his first four years. That was a legitimate alibi. No more.

Coaching and offensive personnel aren't issues. Kubiak and Troy Calhoun are first-rate offensive coaches. Carr has gotten better, too, completing 70.5 percent of his passes, tops in the league. His 94.3 quarterback rating is sixth-best.

He's also (still) doing things that kill a team. His five lost fumbles are tied for the NFL lead, and he has seven turnovers in his last four games. Poor pass protection might be responsible for some of them, but others — like throwing that interception to a receiver with four defenders around him — are on Carr and Carr alone.

Perhaps the most troubling aspect is his lack of pocket presence. When pass protection breaks down, the best quarterbacks have a sense of the chaos around them and are able to move to buy time. Carr doesn't have this sense, and maybe that's something that can't be taught. It was telling that the pass protection seemed to improve once Sage Rosenfels entered Sunday's game.

Rosenfels led three touchdown drives in a stretch of four possessions. This is the thing Carr also hasn't done. Despite an improvement in his personal statistics, the Texans are just 23rd in scoring offense (17.3 points per game)....

....Benching Carr was the first smart thing Kubiak did. It was time to see if it would have an effect. Kubiak wanted to win that game at Tennessee, but I'm guessing he also wanted to see how Carr responded....

...We'll know more Sunday when the Texans go to one of the NFL's most hostile environments against one of its best teams. If Carr's confidence is fragile, the Giants will expose it. (They have 17 sacks in their last four games. Duck, David!)...

TexanTider
11-03-2006, 05:56 PM
Preach on A4toZ

Double Barrel
11-03-2006, 06:27 PM
I don't know the answer to this, really, but it piqued my interest enough to go look up a few things. First off, Carr's lost 20 of the 62 fumbles. He's been sacked 228 times. I'm not sure how many of those sacks also resulted in fumbles, but there's definitely some overlap.

Good post, man. :thumbup

Interesting that only 20 of the 62 fumbles were turnovers. That kind of sheds some 'positive' light on it, though, because I was under the [false] impression that those fumble numbers represented turnovers.

And do they count as sacks if the QB fumbles? A buddy of mine was curious about that, as well, and I didn't know the answer.

bah007
11-03-2006, 06:36 PM
Good post, man. :thumbup

Interesting that only 20 of the 62 fumbles were turnovers. That kind of sheds some 'positive' light on it, though, because I was under the [false] impression that those fumble numbers represented turnovers.

And do they count as sacks if the QB fumbles? A buddy of mine was curious about that, as well, and I didn't know the answer.

Yes. If you force a fumble on the QB behind the line of scrimmage it counts as a sack.

kcwilson
11-03-2006, 07:05 PM
Yes. If you force a fumble on the QB behind the line of scrimmage it counts as a sack.

In my opinion, from watching the games on tv, the reason why he has fumbled 62 and only lost 20, is that he has had a lot of 'sloppy' fumbles resulting from bad exchanges, bad hands.

I would be interested in knowing how many of his own fumbles he has recovered himself... just think of the number of times he fumbled the snap and immediately fell on it.

I seem to remember a lot of fumbles where he didn't have someone draped on him preventing him from chasing down the very rock that he himself dropped.

I think we haven't lost many the last few years because we inevitably have so many people in trying to block for him, that we have a TE, FB or RB almost always right around him ready to pounce on the rock after they blew blocking assignments. That is something they teach, if you blew a block, be ready to recover a fumble.

SESupergenius
11-03-2006, 07:47 PM
A fumble is a fumble, Carr does have a problem in this area. Many QB's get sacked like he does and they don't cough it up like that. He does however have probably twice as many sacks as other QB's in this same time span, so those numbers are a little skewed. Let's face, that is the reason he got yanked and that is the reason Indy got off to a hot start on us. If we eliminated those problems then we have a better chance of winning the turnover battle, thus increasing our chance to win. He has got to hold on to the ball, I mean he's having a very good season otherwise. Where does he lead in QB turnovers ((interceptions + fumbles)/play attempts)?

infantrycak
11-03-2006, 08:19 PM
And do they count as sacks if the QB fumbles? A buddy of mine was curious about that, as well, and I didn't know the answer.

Yup--Sharper had the ultimate fourfer--sack, forced fumble, fumble recovery and TD. Stat padder.

JDizzle
11-03-2006, 09:09 PM
Yup--Sharper had the ultimate fourfer--sack, forced fumble, fumble recovery and TD. Stat padder.

It would have been ultimat-er if it were against someone other than Kerry Collins and the Raiders. Nonetheless it was still one of my fav. games to attend at Reliant.

Double Barrel
11-04-2006, 01:38 PM
Yes. If you force a fumble on the QB behind the line of scrimmage it counts as a sack.

Yup--Sharper had the ultimate fourfer--sack, forced fumble, fumble recovery and TD. Stat padder.

Sweet. Thanks for the info. Always good to know. :thumbup