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gtexan02
10-30-2006, 10:38 PM
Just thought it was interesting that he's still leading the league in completion percentage. 70% is pretty dang good. I think he has the ability, he just needs the mentality. And that can be coached. Thats why kubiak is sticking with him imo

TexansSeminole
10-30-2006, 10:40 PM
Just thought it was interesting that he's still leading the league in completion percentage. 70% is pretty dang good. I think he has the ability, he just needs the mentality. And that can be coached. Thats why kubiak is sticking with him imo

Hopefully somehow Kubiak can make Carr a consistant player. I think that if there is a coach who could do it, it would be Kubiak.

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 10:40 PM
Just thought it was interesting that he's still leading the league in completion percentage. 70% is pretty dang good. I think he has the ability, he just needs the mentality. And that can be coached. Thats why kubiak is sticking with him imo

Now I want David to start against NYG..... I think it is the right thing to do.

But both he & Carr completed 70% of their passes yesterday, except Sage got 3 TDs and 80 more yards than David Got.

MissouriTexan
10-30-2006, 10:43 PM
Hasn't Carr only had one meltdown this season? IMHO, he's made significant strides this season, although unfortunately, the time the defense and running game were finally on track was the time he performed very poorly.

Bubbajwp
10-30-2006, 10:48 PM
Hasn't Carr only had one meltdown this season? IMHO, he's made significant strides this season, although unfortunately, the time the defense and running game were finally on track was the time he performed very poorly.

This is the one game all season we should have dominated and we came out with a loss.

Double Barrel
10-30-2006, 10:57 PM
Just thought it was interesting that he's still leading the league in completion percentage. 70% is pretty dang good. I think he has the ability, he just needs the mentality. And that can be coached. Thats why kubiak is sticking with him imo

70% is awesome. There are not many QBs that can keep that pace for an entire season, and it is definitely worth mentioning.

Hopefully somehow Kubiak can make Carr a consistant player. I think that if there is a coach who could do it, it would be Kubiak.

Consistency is the key. I thought he was going to come out kickin' A for this game. Our team played well enough if he'd just been mediocre. But man, I certainly did not anticipate Carr looking that bad. It was of his worst performances that I can remember in recent history.

Now I want David to start against NYG..... I think it is the right thing to do.

I agree. It's the right decision, because Kubiak needs to know how Carr will respond to this situation. It's the first time in his career that he's experienced this kind of setback, so the Giants game will be a big test for him. And to make it even tougher, it's against a good team on the road.

Hasn't Carr only had one meltdown this season? IMHO, he's made significant strides this season, although unfortunately, the time the defense and running game were finally on track was the time he performed very poorly.

He looked pretty bad in the 2nd half against the Cowboys. But he rebounded with a great day against the Jags. It's almost a Jeckle and Hyde thing right now.

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-30-2006, 10:57 PM
OK im sorry to break it to you but all I saw from Carr on Sunday was a bunch of screens, 3 yard dump offs to the TE, and flat passes to the backs.

No wonder his completion percentage is so high..........

Tayton
10-30-2006, 11:03 PM
87 Yards, We Know We Lost. Now Go Home.

tsip
10-30-2006, 11:10 PM
Carr is and almost always has been a 'dink and dunk' passer in the NFL, with a very weak vertical passing game...rarely uses the middle of the field, which reduces the risk of incompletions...and greatly inflates his high percentage rate...

IshouldbeGM
10-30-2006, 11:14 PM
I'd hit 70% accuracy too if i were throwing 4 yrd passes to the running back every other attempt!

Hookem Horns
10-30-2006, 11:14 PM
Exactly, you cannot compare Carr to other NFL QB's that throw the ball down the field. 2 and 3 yard passes are almost always completed and rarely intercepted. His stats are misleading. I judge him by what I see on Sundays not what the stats say afterwards.

mexican_texan
10-30-2006, 11:23 PM
OK im sorry to break it to you but all I saw from Carr on Sunday was a bunch of screens, 3 yard dump offs to the TE, and flat passes to the backs.

No wonder his completion percentage is so high..........
You do know we run the West/Gulf Coast offense right?

He's been doing this his whole career. He's just doing it better.

Hulk75
10-30-2006, 11:29 PM
Let me say this about this whole thing, the can of warms that Kubiak opened on sunday I think hurt the relationship between him and Carr a little. The trust factor had been broken that day by Kubiak.

David Carr has done a good job with a team that went 2-14 last year, did he have a great 1st half NO but NIETHER did the Offensive line (pass wise) He did not hold on to the ball very long, as soon as he hit his back foot they were on top of him, what should he do?

The pick is in excusable, he should not have thrown that ball, BUT! Is he the only QB that through a pick yesterday?( and that pick was in their area and they got no points off it, I am not excusing it, I am just saying) I believe the Super Bowl champion Ben Rothlisberger throw 4 ints 1 in the red zone that went for 100 yards, I saw a lot more guys on Sunday that should have saw the bench before Carr.

To come here to Houston and say to everyone (Kubiak) I am going to be here through the rough times and through the good times, and then to bench him on only 2 plays were he was vonerable for a Fumble is STUPID! and WRONG! If your going to bench a guy for playing bad VERY bad, for over a span of a couple games then yea I understand that, BUT for Gary to sit David Carr down because of 2 plays were he was hammered AGAIN is wrong.

For all the stuff he takes in this town for the last 5 years and to bench him on that day were he is playing against the Titans, against the guy most everyone wanted and to NOT LET HIM BATTLE BACK just blows my flippin mind.

Perfection is not going to happen in 6 games Kubes, he has done pretty dang well with the time he has had in THIS SYSTEM. I believe that Kubiak had a brain fart, made a split second decsion and TRUTHFULLY I "GARUNTEE" he apologized to Carr after the game. Just the fact that he did not let David battle back blows me away!

And the play before the half!!!!!!!!! Dangit, you know Coach they have not protected Carr all game the way they should, SO WHY in the Blue Blazes try to throw the football with the preasure they were putting on him! They rushed 4 against our 5 and played cover 4. He put the team and Carr in a very tough possition.

Say what you want, call me whatever but Gary was wrong not to let Carr finish that game.

Anyways thats what I "think" :spy: :) happened

whiskeyrbl
10-30-2006, 11:34 PM
Face it no one wants to give any of the players we have credit. EX: We beat the Jags! What do we hear... Their best players are hurt. So That same team just beat Philly ...didn't hear anything about injuries affecting the eagles. I think it's hilarious. DC is the most accurate QB in the NFL this year. And by the way we aren't the only offense running these type plays.

run-david-run
10-30-2006, 11:39 PM
70% is awesome. There are not many QBs that can keep that pace for an entire season, and it is definitely worth mentioning.



Consistency is the key. I thought he was going to come out kickin' A for this game. Our team played well enough if he'd just been mediocre. But man, I certainly did not anticipate Carr looking that bad. It was of his worst performances that I can remember in recent history.



I agree. It's the right decision, because Kubiak needs to know how Carr will respond to this situation. It's the first time in his career that he's experienced this kind of setback, so the Giants game will be a big test for him. And to make it even tougher, it's against a good team on the road.



He looked pretty bad in the 2nd half against the Cowboys. But he rebounded with a great day against the Jags. It's almost a Jeckle and Hyde thing right now.
Did I miss something? The man complete 15 of 21 passes with one pick. Yes he fumbled at very bad times, but its not like he went out and started 3 of 14 like Leinart and was throwing picks left and right. It was a series of mistakes that held us back in the first half, not Carr. Until the fumble before halftime (which I blame on the coaches for the way they handled the 2 minute drill), Carr wasnt playing well, but he certanly wasnt costing us the game. To start the 3rd quarter, he leads a good drive down to the 15 or so and then gets sacked from the blindside at the top of his drop, its not like he had time to escape the rush, and messes up by losing the ball. Did he play well? No. Did his performance cost us the game? I dont think so. Others will dissagree, but I think this one is on the whole team, not just Carr.

Nza
10-31-2006, 12:57 AM
Completion % != accuracy

beerlover
10-31-2006, 01:18 AM
maybe thats the problem too many people focus on measureables like accuracy instead of winning and playing heads up football. VY sure did not light it up but he did not cost his team the game either. And how long is Kubiak supposed to stay with Carr when nothings working and turning over the pigskin like sausage on a hot grill :pigfly:

watch 3rd year Charger QB Philip Rivers no big stat sheet but consistant, doesn't turn the the ball over and when his leadership is needed he has shown the ability to make plays that move the chains and score once in the Red Zone :hunter:

HJam72
10-31-2006, 04:00 AM
I've always defended Carr for the most part, I think the O-line can take some of that blame, and I still think Carr would be REALLY good if he had like immaculate protection, BUT he's got to stop fumbling the ball such a large percentage of the time when he is sacked. I really doubt that it is a question of toughness. I think the issue here is one of hearing or feeling it coming. He gets nailed too much without having any idea that he's about to get hit.

He may have had periods where he imagined that he was about to get hit, but then when he really is he doesn't have any idea. Or, maybe he just needs to keep a firmer 2 handed grip on the ball when he's not throwing it.

WiiBrawler
10-31-2006, 07:27 AM
OK im sorry to break it to you but all I saw from Carr on Sunday was a bunch of screens, 3 yard dump offs to the TE, and flat passes to the backs.

No wonder his completion percentage is so high..........

He is playing it safe, for the sake of his qb rating:lightbulb:

aj.
10-31-2006, 07:27 AM
Let me say this about this whole thing, the can of warms that Kubiak opened on sunday I think hurt the relationship between him and Carr a little. The trust factor had been broken that day by Kubiak.

...........to NOT LET HIM BATTLE BACK just blows my flippin mind.



I think DC broke a trust with his head coach by not protecting the ball. We hear it all the time on the radio here. I'm sure DC has heard it a million times. Kubiak won't tolerate it. Also, on the Hope INT, I heard Kubiak say last night that the Texans scout team gave DC the same look in practice and DC made the right read. So why does he do the right thing on Wednesday but can't do it on Sunday? (Kubiak's rhetorical question that I'm just repeating).

Kubiak gave DC a chance to battle back by letting him start the second half. He fumbled the ball away on the first drive. I think he had seen enough at that point. I know I did.

And no, it's not all his fault, but a lot of it is.

Hopefully DC gets over his hurt feelings quickly. We need someone to play QB.

Hulk75
10-31-2006, 08:08 AM
I think DC broke a trust with his head coach by not protecting the ball. We hear it all the time on the radio here. Kubiak won't tolerate it. Also, on the Hope INT, I heard Kubiak say last night that the Texans scout team gave DC the same look in practice and DC made the right read. So why does he do the right thing on Wednesday but can't do it on Sunday? (Kubiak's words that I'm just repeating).

Kubiak gave DC a chance to battle back by letting him start the second half. He fumbled the ball away on the first drive. I think he had seen enough at that point. I know I did.

Hopefully DC gets over his hurt feelings quickly. We need someone to play QB.

Do you kind of get what I am saying? Should he protect the ball Yes, BUT bro what can he do on that play were he was hit in the back after the half? In the back he is looking down field( and if you watch it the ball was not being hung out there it was were it was suposed to be, possition wise.). Instead how about we stick up for Carr (coach) and give Ephram a tongue lashing.

Carr is a pro, I doubt heavily he has given this thing another thought, but for that day yes it did hurt.

6 games were he played better then everyone thought he would, and then to pull him based on 2 plays, I have saw worse on Sunday.

Its in the past and I am done with it.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 08:30 AM
Do you kind of get what I am saying?

6 games were he played better then everyone thought he would, and then to pull him based on 2 plays, I have saw worse on Sunday.

Its in the past and I am done with it.

No, I don't get what you are trying to say.... based on 2 plays??

This goes back to Indy..... 2 fumbles that put Indy inside our 20, and led directly to 10 points agianst us. he had 3 fumbles on the day.

Washington.... 3 fumbles..... 2 recovered, the 3rd led to a field goal(3 points against us) in the third Qtr.

Miami.... 2 fumbles. One led to a Field goal by Miami(3 points against us).

Tennessee.... 2 fumbles... one led to 7 points by Tennessee.

EphraimSallam..... far as I know, he's been penalty free up to the Tennessee game.

MrMeToo
10-31-2006, 08:37 AM
I'd hit 70% accuracy too if i were throwing 4 yrd passes to the running back every other attempt!

very true...

nunusguy
10-31-2006, 08:46 AM
The reality is that Sage has had no more time to pick up this new WCO system that Kubiak has installed than DC has, yet he's functioning in the
new system better than Carr. And of course he's not had the benefit of all
the playing time that David has. And we saw this early on in preseason.
And with 5 years of experience, DC has only been in the NFL one less year than Sage.
DC seems to be the one who needs the training wheels, not Sage. But again
being realistic, he's the one who is the most talented and represents one
of the biggest investments.

ArlingtonTexan
10-31-2006, 10:22 AM
Do you kind of get what I am saying? Should he protect the ball Yes, BUT bro what can he do on that play were he was hit in the back after the half? In the back he is looking down field( and if you watch it the ball was not being hung out there it was were it was suposed to be, possition wise.). Instead how about we stick up for Carr (coach) and give Ephram a tongue lashing.



How about we judge Carr by the standards that his head coach is? Obviously, Kubiak thinks that Carr should be able to protect the football. You can talk to Ephram about doing his job better AND expect Carr to not fumble. It is not an either/or proposition. At least, that's what Kubiak says and from the looks of Sunday does.

TexanFanInCC
10-31-2006, 10:30 AM
Just thought it was interesting that he's still leading the league in completion percentage. 70% is pretty dang good. I think he has the ability, he just needs the mentality. And that can be coached. Thats why kubiak is sticking with him imo

im probably repeating what alot of people have already said in this thread, but i was lazy to read all the posts. i think 70% is great, but look at the kind of passes he throws...nothing but dinkers to the RB and TE. he has hardly taken the shots down the field, and when he has, he has been successful (mainly bc of andre) but i mean sage rosenfels had no problem going down the field (my definition of DTF is like 15+ yard) when he was in the game.

Vinny
10-31-2006, 10:34 AM
The reality is that Sage has had no more time to pick up this new WCO system that Kubiak has installed than DC has, yet he's functioning in the
new system better than Carr. And of course he's not had the benefit of all
the playing time that David has. And we saw this early on in preseason.
And with 5 years of experience, DC has only been in the NFL one less year than Sage.
DC seems to be the one who needs the training wheels, not Sage. But again
being realistic, he's the one who is the most talented and represents one
of the biggest investments.
The bottom line is David has more talent and raw skill than Sage but Sage has played the position of QB better than Carr every time we have rolled him out. Sometimes the physical prototype isn't always the better football player. Sage is just an average QB...but he looks far more advanced and way ahead of Carr every time we have seen him play...tells me something.

Honoring Earl 34
10-31-2006, 10:39 AM
If Carr is gonna be great ... then his feelings will get hurt a lot more and he'll stop being dumb and careless .

Who cares about completion % and QB ratings we're 4-19 the last two years . If fumbles counted in a QB rating Carr would be in the 40's .

I'm not sure Carr will be the starter in three weeks ... stay tuned drama fans . Kubiak demands consistancy ... maybe this is as good as it gets . :crying:

ArlingtonTexan
10-31-2006, 10:52 AM
If Carr is gonna be great ... then his feelings will get hurt a lot more and he'll stop being dumb and careless .

Who cares about completion % and QB ratings we're 4-19 the last two years . If fumbles counted in a QB rating Carr would be in the 40's .

I'm not sure Carr will be the starter in three weeks ... stay tuned drama fans . Kubiak demands consistancy ... maybe this is as good as it gets . :crying:

The one thing that Carr has not delivered in his career is consistancy...bad or good. If he had just been a completely bad player, it would have been easy to dismiss him and the Texans would have moved on long ago. On the other hand, everytime it looks like Carr is becoming more than just another guy in the league, he comes up short.

At the end of the day this is what Carr is until he shows something different. I am not convinced that you can coach it totally out of him. How does someone coach around a QB when you don't know which guy you are going to get not only from game to game, but even within a game?

real
10-31-2006, 11:01 AM
im probably repeating what alot of people have already said in this thread, but i was lazy to read all the posts. i think 70% is great, but look at the kind of passes he throws...nothing but dinkers to the RB and TE.

Player................................Yards/Att
Donavan McNabb--------------8.3
Peyton Manning----------------8.0
Marc Bulger-------------------7.8
Drew Brees-------------------7.5
Rex Grossman-----------------7.5
Phillip Rivers-------------------7.3
Eli Manning------------------- 7.2
Chad Pennington--------------7.1
David Carr---------------------6.9
Michael vick------------------6.9
Tom Brady--------------------6.9
Jake Delhomme---------------6.4
Byron Leftwhich--------------6.3
Brett Favre-------------------6.3(has averaged 7.0 for his career)
Jake Plummer------------------6.1


Take these stats FWIW....

What I concur from these stats is that Carr is about average when it comes to gains on passing plays...

Heres another stat for you....Passing plays over 25 yards Carr is basically tied for 7th in the leauge, but is only 4 passes over 25 yards away from the fourth place Manning...

Kaiser Toro
10-31-2006, 11:05 AM
Player................................Yards/Att
Peyton Manning----------------8.0
David Carr---------------------6.9
Donavan McNabb--------------8.3
Tom Brady--------------------6.9
Rex Grossman-----------------7.5
Eli Manning------------------- 7.2
Byron Leftwhich--------------6.3
Michael vick------------------6.9
Chad Pennington--------------7.1
Jake Plummer------------------6.1
Phillip Rivers-------------------7.3
Brett Favre-------------------6.3(has averaged 7.0 for his career)
Jake Delhomme---------------6.4
Drew Brees-------------------7.5
Marc Bulger-------------------7.8

Take these stats FWIW....

What I concur from these stats is that Carr is about average when it comes to gains on passing plays...

Heres another stat for you....Passing plays over 25 yards Carr is basically tied for 7th in the leauge, but is only 4 passes over 25 yards away from the fourth place Manning...

My first observation would be to say that most of those guys are on winning teams. I would like to see how he stacks up against QB's on losing teams since they are normally playing catch up. Also what is the term of those stats, just this year?

real
10-31-2006, 11:07 AM
My first observation would be to say that most of those guys are on winning teams. I would like to see how he stacks up against QB's on losing teams since they are normally playing catch up. Also what is the term of those stats, just this year?

Yep just this year...and I'll look for some losing QB's....one sec....
http://snap.stats.com/stats/nflinfo/leaders.asp?year=Q&type=NFL+Passing&rank=118&Submit=Go

ArlingtonTexan
10-31-2006, 11:10 AM
The bottom line is David has more talent and raw skill than Sage but Sage has played the position of QB better than Carr every time we have rolled him out. Sometimes the physical prototype isn't always the better football player. Sage is just an average QB...but he looks far more advanced and way ahead of Carr every time we have seen him play...tells me something.

This goes straight to the argument that if Carr had a good coach, if carr had good WRs, if carr had really good protection...Sage Rosen. is considered league wide as no more than an average talent and even as a back-up in this league a pretty average type of guy. There are 50 guys in the league who play effecient, non-embarrassing QB under above average conditions. The standard of whether a QB is really good or "great" is what does that QB accomplish once you start taking the stuff around him away, especially how does he handle pressure. Pressure, being both the physical kind and mental/emotional type. I would argue that many of us have seen what he does under physical pressure, this week is really the first time Carr is under the mental/emotional type of stuff. This week will go a long way in showing us if Carr is truly something else or just another guy.

playerhater
10-31-2006, 11:18 AM
highest QB rating coming in before last week game huh, wonder why. Dump passes or short passes all day that isn't effective on getting the first down. Throws TD passes when it doesn't count. Has no balls to throw the ball deep when you got good WRs. It's like he throw short passes in order to have a high completion percentage, something I would do in a NFL video game.

I'm tired of the Texans babying him and pampering him. It's starting to get old blaming the O-line.

Let's be real he has been the same QB ever since he's been a rookie. 5th highest paid QB yet top 5 worst QB.

Carr looks satisfy for his performance after losing on a couple of games, "I have the highest QB rating so you can't blame me for the lost"

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 11:20 AM
Yea.... I can see how getting benched after the first half can be mistaken as "pampering".

:sarcasm:

infantrycak
10-31-2006, 11:20 AM
Here is one folks talk about all the time--how much of various QB's yardage is made up of Yards After Catch (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/leaders.asp?year=Q&type=NFL+Passing&rank=230&Submit=Go). It would be more useful if they would do it as a % of passing yards.

JDizzle
10-31-2006, 11:22 AM
im probably repeating what alot of people have already said in this thread, but i was lazy to read all the posts. i think 70% is great, but look at the kind of passes he throws...nothing but dinkers to the RB and TE.

Then why does AJ lead the league in receptions? AJ and Moulds have the most receptions on the team so that is grossly overstated.

However, Carr's ypa isn't in the top 10 and AJ's ypc is not even 12 yards, which is not that good. The Titan game in particular, Sage averaged a full 2 yards more per attempt than Carr with 4 more attempts. I think it's a bit much to say he does nothing but dump it off but I think we could all agree that Carr doesn't thrive downfield.

Kaiser Toro
10-31-2006, 11:22 AM
Here is one folks talk about all the time--how much of various QB's yardage is made up of Yards After Catch (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/10/31/iraq.main/index.html?eref=rss_world). It would be more useful if they would do it as a % of passing yards.

fix your link brutha, but good reading nonetheless

Roughnecks
10-31-2006, 11:23 AM
Sorry yes DC had a bad game but I would rather coach Kubes work with him to be better than have Sage as our QB of the future. Look at the games he screws up coach is all up in his face and I have not seen that till this year and I think pulling him might have opened his eyes. Either way having Sage as our QB will not work for ling and drafting a rookie to start next year just puts us back to starting over. Myself I would like DC to finish the season as our starter and go into next year with a full season of this system under his belt. I did not see this team making the playoffs and would have droped dead if they made it 500 at the end of the season I'm was looking towards next year for these guys to be in it not this year this year is a year of learning no matter how hard it is to watch.

real
10-31-2006, 11:24 AM
Yards per attempt 2006:
Alex Smith------------------------6.8
Aaron Brooks----------------------4.9(LMAO)
Benjamin Roethlisberger------------7.5
Vince Young-----------------------5.3
Joey Harrington--------------------6.2
John Kitna-------------------------7.0
Matt Leinart-----------------------5.9
Marc Brunnell----------------------6.9

Career Avgerages for some retired players:

Troy Aikman------------------------7.0
Chris Chandler----------------------7.1
John Elway-------------------------7.1
Boomer Esiason---------------------7.3
Doug Flutie-------------------------6.8
Jeff George-------------------------7.0
Elvis Grbac--------------------------6.9
Dan Marino--------------------------7.3
Warren Moon-------------------------7.2


*Right now D.Carr is sitting at a 6.6 average for his career

Vinny
10-31-2006, 11:26 AM
Alex Smith------------------------6.8
Aaron Brooks----------------------4.9(LMAO)
Benjamin Roethlisberger------------7.5
Vince Young-----------------------5.3
Joey Harrington--------------------6.2
John Kitna-------------------------7.0
Matt Leinart-----------------------5.9
Marc Brunnell----------------------6.9

Career Avgerages for some retired players:

Troy Aikman------------------------7.0
Chris Chandler----------------------7.1
John Elway-------------------------7.1
Boomer Esiason---------------------7.3
Doug Flutie-------------------------6.8
Jeff George-------------------------7.0
Elvis Grbac--------------------------6.9
Dan Marino--------------------------7.3
Warren Moon-------------------------7.2


*Right now D.Carr is sitting at a 6.6 average for his careerany time you mix in Jeff George with John Elway, Boomer Esiason, Dan Marino and John Elway, you got more evidence that stats are misleading in football.

playerhater
10-31-2006, 11:27 AM
David "Dump Pass" Carr, his QB rating and accuracy is misleading like one of the posters before me.

eriadoc
10-31-2006, 11:43 AM
People can keep harping on the dink and dunk stuff, but prior to this game, Carr was averaging a bit over 7 yards per pass attempt. He's now averaging 6.89, which is tied with Tom Brady. Eli Manning has 7.18, Carson Palmer has 7.26, and Rivers has 7.31, for example. Manning has the most, from my cursory examination, with 8.02.

The offense calls for Carr to dink and dunk his way down the field and then get a couple long strikes a game. For the most part this season, he's done that. There are a lot of things for which to criticize Carr, but completion percentage is not one of them.

Vinny
10-31-2006, 11:44 AM
People can keep harping on the dink and dunk stuff, but prior to this game, Carr was averaging a bit over 7 yards per pass attempt. He's now averaging 6.89, which is tied with Tom Brady. Eli Manning has 7.18, Carson Palmer has 7.26, and Rivers has 7.31, for example. Manning has the most, from my cursory examination, with 8.02.

The offense calls for Carr to dink and dunk his way down the field and then get a couple long strikes a game. For the most part this season, he's done that. There are a lot of things for which to criticize Carr, but completion percentage is not one of them.Classic...shows how misleading stats are. The QB's you listed throw the ball down field and challenge the defense with regularity, something Carr struggles with and was highlighted when Sage came in and made plays in the same exact offense...downfield. Challenging a defense in the seam or over the linebacker drops on a consistent basis opens up everything else in your offense. The QB's you listed win games with the same stats...but they get the ball up the field more often...there is a lesson there somewhere.

hollywood_texan
10-31-2006, 11:54 AM
Carr is and almost always has been a 'dink and dunk' passer in the NFL, with a very weak vertical passing game...rarely uses the middle of the field, which reduces the risk of incompletions...and greatly inflates his high percentage rate...

Thank you saying this before me!

You are exactly right.

His completion % is misleading.

real
10-31-2006, 11:58 AM
Carr doesn't throw down the field as much as other QB's but that has nothing to do with his completion percentage....If you look at the stats Carr is about average when it comes to yards/attempt....

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 12:02 PM
Player................................Yards/Att
Donavan McNabb--------------8.3..............277 atts....16 TD....5 Ints
Peyton Manning----------------8.0.............245 atts....15 TD....2 Ints
Marc Bulger-------------------7.8.............248 atts.....12 TDs...1 Int
Drew Brees-------------------7.5...............252 atts....11 TDs..7 Ints
Rex Grossman-----------------7.5...............218 atts....13 TDs..7 Ints
Phillip Rivers-------------------7.3..............210 atts....10 TDs...3 Ints
Eli Manning------------------- 7.2.............233 atts.........14 TDs..8 Ints
Chad Pennington--------------7.1.............218 atts.............9 TDs ...8 INts
David Carr---------------------6.9.........193 atts..........9 TDs...5 Ints
Michael vick------------------6.9..............175 atts........ 10 TDs...5 Ints
Tom Brady--------------------6.9.............232 atts........... 14 Tds...4 Ints
Jake Delhomme---------------6.4.............270 atts.............8 Tds...5 Ints
Byron Leftwhich--------------6.3.................183 atts..........7 TDs...5 Ints
Brett Favre-------------------6.3(has averaged 7.0 for his career)..263 atts.. 10 TDs... 5 Ints
Jake Plummer------------------6.1..............190 atts........ 5 TDs...7 Ints


Take these stats FWIW....

What I concur from these stats is that Carr is about average when it comes to gains on passing plays...

Heres another stat for you....Passing plays over 25 yards Carr is basically tied for 7th in the leauge, but is only 4 passes over 25 yards away from the fourth place Manning...

I wouldn't say he's about avg on passing plays, as his avg is close to guys who made a lot more attempts. THose guys also have a lot more passing yards, and for the most part, more passing TDs than David.

The only QBs who have less attempts than David, are Plummer, Leftwhich, and Vick. Plummer & Leftwich may not be starting QBs in this league much longer, and we all know Vick is not a QB.

You can add Pennington to that list for the only guys with less TDs than David as well.

eriadoc
10-31-2006, 12:03 PM
Carr doesn't throw down the field as much as other QB's but that has nothing to do with his completion percentage....If you look at the stats Carr is about average when it comes to yards/attempt....

That's really all I was saying (Vinny). Put another way, Carr averages about 9.8 yards per completion, while most other QBs are in the 11.5 range.

kcwilson
10-31-2006, 12:05 PM
Thank you saying this before me!

You are exactly right.

His completion % is misleading.

Carr is simply executing what the offense is designed to do... short accurate passing. No single stat exists on its own merit, it has to be relative to other categories like YPA, RUn after the catch, and so on.

So whether his completion % is misleading or not, he is executing what is being asked of him. I think he could take a shot or two more downfield per game, but as the Texans have shown, if they are not third and short, then they have a hard time picking up first downs.

Jacksonville game had the down field spread... and Rosenfels got to spread it after the Texans were getting their ***** handed to them. Never heard anyone complain that Rosenfels was playing from way behind and got the soft defense like Carr did against Indy.

I support Carr and expect him to come out and execute each week, especially this week... it will show what kind of character and leadership he has in the locker room.

real
10-31-2006, 12:09 PM
I wouldn't say he's about avg on passing plays, as his avg is close to guys who made a lot more attempts. THose guys also have a lot more passing yards, and for the most part, more passing TDs than David.


I'm not sure what attempts and TD's have to do with this discussion...

I never said David threw the ball down the field a lot...I never even said he was a good QB...

Someone said his completion percentage was skewed because most of his completions are dinks and dunks....

Well he is gaining about average yardage on his completions...........If we are talking about completion percentage, and HOW/WHY he is completing those passes..........incomplete passes, attempts, and TD's don't have anything to do with this

How about his completion percentage is higher this year because he actually got a little better...We actually got a coach that understands his strengths and plays to them.....How about that ?

hollywood_texan
10-31-2006, 12:18 PM
People can keep harping on the dink and dunk stuff, but prior to this game, Carr was averaging a bit over 7 yards per pass attempt. He's now averaging 6.89, which is tied with Tom Brady. Eli Manning has 7.18, Carson Palmer has 7.26, and Rivers has 7.31, for example. Manning has the most, from my cursory examination, with 8.02.

The offense calls for Carr to dink and dunk his way down the field and then get a couple long strikes a game. For the most part this season, he's done that. There are a lot of things for which to criticize Carr, but completion percentage is not one of them.

Here are the more detailed stats of the players you mentioned through Week 8.

Player- Yards- Attempts - Completion- TD- INT
Brady- 1598- 232- 135- 14- 4
E. Manning- 1672- 233- 143- 14- 8
Palmer- 1684- 232- 146- 11- 4
Rivers- 1536- 210- 139- 10 3
P. Manning- 1965- 245- 163- 15- 2
David Carr- 1330- 193- 136- 9- 5

The average yards per game are:
Player- Avg. Yards per game
Brady- 228
E. Manning- 239
Palmer- 240
Rivers- 219
P. Manning- 281
David Carr- 190

Average attempts and completions per game:
Player- Avg. att per game- Avg. Comp. per game
Brady 33 19
E. Manning 33 20
Palmer 33 21
Rivers 30 200
P. Manning 35 23
David Carr 28 19

Then average yards per attemp, completion, and overall completion percentage:
Player- Avg. yards per attempt - Avg. yards per completion - Overall completion percentage
Brady 6.89 11.84 0.58%
E. Manning 7.18 11.69 0.61%
Palmer 7.26 11.53 0.63%
Rivers 7.31 11.05 0.66%
P. Manning 8.02 12.06 0.67%
David Carr 6.89 9.78 0.70%

Carr throws a lot less than the players you compare him to, and consequently has less yards. But, Carr completes on a percentage more of his passes. If his completion percentage drops, the number you hail so much will fall like a brick.

You are taking one stat and blowing it out of proportion. That is point here if you look at the complete stats.

Just watching the games, there is no way you can compare Carr to any of those players regardless of his average yards per attempt.

real
10-31-2006, 12:22 PM
Just watching the games, there is no way you can compare Carr to any of those players regardless of his average yards per attempt.

Im not going to speak for anyone else, but the argument started because someone basically said that Carr's completions were mostly dinks and dunks...

Well his average yards/attempt is about average with the rest of the leauge...All that other stuff doesn't matter...

hollywood_texan
10-31-2006, 12:22 PM
Carr is simply executing what the offense is designed to do... short accurate passing. No single stat exists on its own merit, it has to be relative to other categories like YPA, RUn after the catch, and so on.

So whether his completion % is misleading or not, he is executing what is being asked of him. I think he could take a shot or two more downfield per game, but as the Texans have shown, if they are not third and short, then they have a hard time picking up first downs.

Jacksonville game had the down field spread... and Rosenfels got to spread it after the Texans were getting their ***** handed to them. Never heard anyone complain that Rosenfels was playing from way behind and got the soft defense like Carr did against Indy.

I support Carr and expect him to come out and execute each week, especially this week... it will show what kind of character and leadership he has in the locker room.

Well then, it seems like the gameplan isn't putting the team in the best position to win the game then. With that gameplan, they are not going to score enough points against the Giants next Sunday.

Maybe Kubiak isn't as good a coach as we thought?

I don't think so, the Texans still haven't executed the 2 minute drill yet and some of the play calling has been horrible. I think the reason is personnel and probably the biggest reason is David Carr.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 12:23 PM
I'm not sure what attempts and TD's have to do with this discussion...

I never said David threw the ball down the field a lot...I never even said he was a good QB...

Someone said his completion percentage was skewed because most of his completions are dinks and dunks....

Well he is gaining about average yardage on his completions...If we are talking about completion percentage, and HOW/WHY he is completing those passes..........incomplete passes, attempts, and TD's don't have anything to do with this

How about his completion percentage is higher this year because he actually got a little better...We actually got a coach that understands his strengths and plays to them.....How about that ?


Attempts have everything to do with YPA(yards per attempt) & completion percentage. Those QBs are throwing the ball more, they have more incompletions, so their Completion percentage is going to be lower. & their YPA is going to come down. So while Carr might look to be in their league, he isn't.

Yards per completion will tell you where he is throwing the ball in relation.

InfantryCak pointed to a link showing the YAC number, which would make you think some QBs are making a living doing the same thing Carr is, but that is also misleading. When Delhomme hits SteveSmith on the sideline at the 50, and he takes it to the endzone, it is counted as YAC.... but it is not the same thing as David throwing the ball 5 yards in front of him, to AJ or Owen, and them having to break a few tackles to pick up the 1st down.

hollywood_texan
10-31-2006, 12:26 PM
Well his average yards/attempt is about average with the rest of the leauge...All that other stuff doesn't matter...

Mathematically, his average is going to be higher than normal because he has a higher completion percentage.

The guys he is being compared to have a lot more attempts, so those guys must be actually throwing for more yards per throw that are actually completed because they have the same average or better.

It is a simple formula.

eriadoc
10-31-2006, 12:33 PM
Mathematically, his average is going to be higher than normal because he has a higher completion percentage.

The guys he is being compared to have a lot more attempts, so those guys must be actually throwing for more yards per throw that are actually completed because they have the same average or better.

It is a simple formula.

Yes, as I pointed out above, Carr is averaging about 9.8 yards per completion, whereas all those other QBs are around 11.5. McNabb is at a ridiculous 14.x yards per completion. I understand completely what you're saying, and that wasn't what I was attempting to point out.

At any rate, I've lost interest. Carry on, folks.

real
10-31-2006, 12:35 PM
Attempts have everything to do with YPA(yards per attempt) & completion percentage. Those QBs are throwing the ball more, they have more incompletions, so their Completion percentage is going to be lower. & their YPA is going to come down. So while Carr might look to be in their league, he isn't.


I never said David was in anybody's leauge....

And it's fine to say that his completion percentage is high because he isn't throwing as many passes....I never argued that....

I said that the length of his receptions has nothing to do with his completetion percentage....

hollywood_texan
10-31-2006, 12:36 PM
Yes, as I pointed out above, Carr is averaging about 9.8 yards per completion, whereas all those other QBs are around 11.5. McNabb is at a ridiculous 14.x yards per completion. I understand completely what you're saying, and that wasn't what I was attempting to point out.

At any rate, I've lost interest. Carry on, folks.

Sorry about that, I woke up a little punchy today.

I was just trying to give a more complete perspective.

phan1
10-31-2006, 12:41 PM
Just thought it was interesting that he's still leading the league in completion percentage. 70% is pretty dang good. I think he has the ability, he just needs the mentality. And that can be coached. Thats why kubiak is sticking with him imo

I think that's obvious. He definitely has a better arm than Sage, and that's why he was a #1 pick while Sage has been a backup all his life. One thing Sage does have over Carr is pocket presence, and I think that makes a huge difference. That's how 6th round pick Tom Brady became who he is today. He would have gone higher if he had that big-time NFL arm people wanted.

But yeah, Carr had a bad game. He's our money guy, let's give him a chance to respond.

real
10-31-2006, 12:42 PM
Mathematically, his average is going to be higher than normal because he has a higher completion percentage.

The guys he is being compared to have a lot more attempts, so those guys must be actually throwing for more yards per throw that are actually completed because they have the same average or better.

It is a simple formula.

Again...I never argued that he was as good as those guys....

I said that the average length of his completions doesn't have anything to do with his completion percentage...

The argument goes both ways...You can say if David threw more passes he'd throw more incompletions....but you can also say that he'd throw more completions....

Again Im not understanding what any of that has to do with the length of his average pass.....

Those other guys have more incompletions to divide into, but at the same time they have more completions....If you are saying that his numbers would go down if he attempted more passes, thats understandable....speculation, but understandable....

real
10-31-2006, 12:44 PM
Yes, as I pointed out above, Carr is averaging about 9.8 yards per completion, whereas all those other QBs are around 11.5. McNabb is at a ridiculous 14.x yards per completion. I understand completely what you're saying, and that wasn't what I was attempting to point out.


bingo.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 01:22 PM
Again Im not understanding what any of that has to do with the length of his average pass.....


Because it is not the length of his average pass that you are giving us. You are showing his avg yards per attempt.



Someone said his completion percentage was skewed because most of his completions are dinks and dunks....

Well he is gaining about average yardage on his completions...........If we are talking about completion percentage, and HOW/WHY he is completing those passes..........incomplete passes, attempts, and TD's don't have anything to do with this


He's completing Dinks & Dunks.. they are easier to catch, than the balls further downfield. He is also throwing the ball alot less than the other guys who have lower percentages, but still more YPA.....

It is easier to get a completion when you are throwing to a stationary RB in the flat, or over his shoulder, than it is to complete a pass to someone with one on one coverage, or moving across the field 15 yards down the field.

For this years probowl, they'll have what they call the QB shoot out. part of that will be a contest where they'll throw some balls at a stationary target 5 yards, 10 yards, and 20 yards away, then I think a moving target 15 yards away. For the most part, they all will be able to hit that 5 yard target, and they'll probably all hit that 10 yard stationary target(they are all pros after all) but it would be rare, if any of them hit the 20 & the 15 yard moving target consistently.

tsip
10-31-2006, 01:56 PM
Here is one folks talk about all the time--how much of various QB's yardage is made up of Yards After Catch (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/leaders.asp?year=Q&type=NFL+Passing&rank=230&Submit=Go). It would be more useful if they would do it as a % of passing yards.

As always, iCak, you've given us an interesting site--below, I'm throwing out some #'s that compare Carr with Brady and Manning on a few things--later I'll post Carr's #'s against a couple of the lower tier QBs in the league--DONE

YAC as a % of Total Yds Passing

CARR 583/1330 43%
Manning 605/1965 30.8%
BRADY 527/1598 33.0%
Leftwich 641/1159 55.3%
SMITH 703/1431 49.1%

TDs vs INT (#/%)

CARR 9/4.7% 5/2.6%
Manning 23/6.1% 2/0.8%
BRADY 21/6.0% 4/1.7%
Leftwich 7/3.8% 5/2.7%
Smith 9/4.3% 5/2.4%

From these percentages, while Carr does not lead the league in 'dink/dunking,' he's in the lower tier with QBs that get a lot of their total passing yds from YAC.

Carr also has a low TD ratio and a high INT ratio, both lower tier #'s.

Of course, a big part of the WC Offense is short 'high percentage' passes that get YAC but,IMO, Carr will need to stretch the field to increase his TDs--which,of course, would be great.

Ironically, on Sunday, Sage lowered his ypa/ypc on 2 of his TD throws to Daniels of 1 and 2 yds but-IMO-stretching the field put the team in the position to get those short TDs. Too, it was nice to see Kubiak call for those passes on short and goal after the 'fiasco' we had a couple of weeks ago trying to run it in from the 1 yd line. 'Hard' headed Capers would have stuck with the run, just needing to 'execute.'

JMO, but evaluating a player's performance soley on stats--as others have pointed out--can be a 'catch-22' situation...sometimes a good measurement and sometimes not. Bill Belechick has 1 primary goal going into a game--'whatever' it takes to win--and he game plans for one game at a time, and no other coach makes quicker or more effective adjustments to that plan during the game. Last night on MNF, one of the announcers pointed out this 'thought' by mentioning the Pats started the game with 10 passes on their first 11 plays (and were very successful)-but-might come out the 2nd half and do nothing but run---'whatever it takes to win.'

When Kubiak was hired, he made the same promise to us--winning was 'everything.' IMO, the key is 1 game at a time and and devising a game plan for that weeks opponent, not a 'one size fits all' with 'no adjustments allowed' game plan like Capers believed in...

Finally,JMO. but Kubiak has a potential for 'failure' if his philosophy of 'using a players strength' does not allow him to devise/adjust a plan that puts the team in the best position to win. If a player is healthy and that player's strengths will not get the job done, he needs to find someone that can--'downsizing' the play book' for 1 player is not the answer, as we did that for our first 4 yrs. It's all about 'setting the bar' high' and expecting/demanding each player to 'reach' it...

real
10-31-2006, 02:19 PM
He's completing Dinks & Dunks.. they are easier to catch, than the balls further downfield. He is also throwing the ball alot less than the other guys who have lower percentages, but still more YPA.....


What in the bejesus does that have to do with the average yards/catch ?????


Texans as a team are averaging a whopping 4 yards a catch less than the team who is LEADING the leauge in yards per catch...Whooopie.....:rolleyes:

You aren't hearing me....The Texans may throw more short throws than other teams, but if we are talking about completions.......the average length per completion isn't drastically skewed....

Most everyone in the leauge is around the 9-11 yard range per completion...

The dink and dunk thing IMO is overrated, and overstated....The difference between the 1st and last team in this category is 5 yards......which IMO, isn't that huge when it comes to passing....a couple big passing play and the whole thing could flip around....


Yes we throw short passes...We run the west coast....
No Carr doesn't throw down field as much as other people...But at the same time he doesn't have as many attempts to go down the field as other people...If you are talking about the amount of shots he takes down field, I'm not sure how you expect him to go down field as much as players who have 100 more passing attempts...But his average yards/catch is right on par with everyone else...

gtexan02
10-31-2006, 02:46 PM
You can't blame a guy for playing the scheme he is being coached in. Sure Carr is throwing short passes, but thats what is being asked of him. He is completing 70% of his throws. End of story. There is no "excuses" that make anything reasonable here.

HOU-TEX
10-31-2006, 02:54 PM
You can't blame a guy for playing the scheme he is being coached in. Sure Carr is throwing short passes, but thats what is being asked of him. He is completing 70% of his throws. End of story. There is no "excuses" that make anything reasonable here.

I understand DC is showing stints of improvement, but when I read this it just makes me wonder why it was different when Sage came in. Same scheme. I believe it's just the fact that DC still has a clock ticking in his head telling him to prematurely look for the check down. That said, I still think he's the right choice for this Sunday and still believe Kubiak can cure him eventually.:whip:

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 02:55 PM
What in the bejesus does that have to do with the average yards/catch ?????

Yes we throw short passes...We run the west coast....
No Carr doesn't throw down field as much as other people...But at the same time he doesn't have as many attempts to go down the field as other people...If you are talking about the amount of shots he takes down field, I'm not sure how you expect him to go down field as much as players who have 100 more passing attempts...But his average yards/catch is right on par with everyone else...

first off, I've been replying(sp) to you talking about YPA..... this is the first time you mentioned YPC, which I think is more telling. Still, you are proving our point. If David could complete 70% of his passing, with a YPC of 11, then that would be something.

Then you look at the numbers tsip is spitting, and you'll see that 43% of Carr's passing yards are coming YAC, which usually involves our WR breaking tackles. WRs aren't supposed to be breaking tackles. You throw them the ball when they are behind the defense, not in front of them. Andre Johnson being a stud, OwenDaniel being a Hoss, and WaliLundy being a chore to tackle is why David's YPC, YPA is even close to those other guys.

& don't blame this on the WCO, Carr's been doing this for 4 years, & that is not how the WCO work. Watch any other team that runs the WCO, and you'll see dumps for big gaines, because the QB still challenges the defense deep, and across the middle.

When Carr dinks & dunks, our guys have to fight for every yard, because the defense never leaves the box. & yes, I'll say it..... because we dink and dunk all day, our running game can't get off, unless we are playing two teams that give up 100 yards per game.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 03:03 PM
I understand DC is showing stints of improvement, but when I read this it just makes me wonder why it was different when Sage came in. Same scheme. I believe it's just the fact that DC still has a clock ticking in his head telling him to prematurely look for the check down. That said, I still think he's the right choice for this Sunday and still believe Kubiak can cure him eventually.:whip:

He did really well int he Miami game, throwing nice accurate passes, picking apart their zones & beating their coverage in the middle of the field as well as on the sidelines.

In the second half, they changed it up a bit, and it looked like we were throwing more out routes & timing patterns.

I don't know what happened against Dallas & Jacksonville to change that, but it looks as if he got comfortable with having all day in the pocket, and Tennessee wasn't playing that game.

real
10-31-2006, 03:09 PM
When Carr dinks & dunks, our guys have to fight for every yard, because the defense never leaves the box. & yes, I'll say it..... because we dink and dunk all day, our running game can't get off, unless we are playing two teams that give up 100 yards per game.

Well we'll just have to agree to disagree....

I say percentage wise he is about average when it comes to the length of his passes...He is one pass attempt away from being tied with last place for pass attempts....

What i'm saying is that he doesn't throw down field as many times because he doesn't have as many attempts....but watching other teams play, % wise, IMO he goes down field just as much....I think if he got as many attempts as other QB's he could go down field more...

And Im really not sure how your runnin game is affected by short passes....If you are able to spread the defense out by running 3 or 4 WR sets that would make people get out of the box...but when you are running two-tight all the time, because it helps with your protection,they are able to stack the box....that has absolutely nothing to do with how many times you go down field.....You open up the box by spreading out your offense....not by chunking the rock down field....

If you open up your offense and start hitting those slot recievers you will force teams to respect that....doesn't have to be a big gain...

TexansSeminole
10-31-2006, 03:17 PM
Yes, BUT bro what can he do on that play were he was hit in the back after the half? In the back he is looking down field( and if you watch it the ball was not being hung out there it was were it was suposed to be, possition wise.).

Maybe next time he will think that losing the ball in the situation is the worst thing that can happen, and that because of that he needs to put both hands on it and take the sack or run out and throw the ball away. Sometimes Carr fights to break the tackle and avoid the sack, but sometimes when you do that you are giving the defense more time to strip the ball. The longer you stay up with a defender holding on to you the higher the chance of that player stripping it. Sometimes when you are wrapped up or are about to be you need to accept the fact that you will be sacked on this play and kind of go down. Now im not saying he should give into sacks all the time or that it is ok if he gets sacked, but its a hell of a lot better than turning the ball over.

bigTEXan8
10-31-2006, 03:19 PM
carr is leaps and bounds better than he was last year...and that is thanks to kubiak. carr's level of play has risen, and all it took was a decent coach. interesting.

TexansSeminole
10-31-2006, 03:22 PM
im probably repeating what alot of people have already said in this thread, but i was lazy to read all the posts. i think 70% is great, but look at the kind of passes he throws...nothing but dinkers to the RB and TE. he has hardly taken the shots down the field, and when he has, he has been successful (mainly bc of andre) but i mean sage rosenfels had no problem going down the field (my definition of DTF is like 15+ yard) when he was in the game.

I'd just like to say that Carr's problem is not his choice of throws (as in take a shot downfield or throw to a running back that looks to be able to get 3-5 yards). This year he seems to be managing games very well, and i think thats a direct reflection of Kubiak. He just needs to know when to throw it away...when to take a sack...when its not a good time to force a throw (and there rarely is a good time for it)...when you need to be extra concious of holding on to the ball, or protecting the ball through his throws. I think Tom Brady is a good example of this on Monday night. The Pats go into a gameplan to throw the ball, and Tom Brady throws safe balls all game, maybe safer than if they ran the ball.

Porky
10-31-2006, 03:28 PM
Let me say this about this whole thing, the can of warms that Kubiak opened on sunday I think hurt the relationship between him and Carr a little. The trust factor had been broken that day by Kubiak.

Good, I hope he breaks it completely, so we can see real NFL QB play instead of Carr who is stealing Mr. Mcnair's money. It's interesting that today is holloween, because I hear someone in the Carr household is pretending to be an NFL QB.


OK im sorry to break it to you but all I saw from Carr on Sunday was a bunch of screens, 3 yard dump offs to the TE, and flat passes to the backs.

No wonder his completion percentage is so high..........

Bingo, we have a winner!

Sunday was my Waterloo. My line in the sand. My provebial straw that broke the camel's back. I have seen enough. I will never, ever, again support Carr as our starting QB. He may make some good plays, or have a good game again, but two plays Sunday convinced me that Carr has rocks for brains, and we will never win a damn thing with Carr at the helm. If we ever want to win the SB, which should be our goal, Carr will not be our QB. Of that I am 150% convinced. Send him on his way, where some other guru will insist that he is the one to tap all of this supposed potential out of Carr. Personally, the next time I see this guy in a Texans uniform will be too soon for me. I might need a puke bag from an airplane Sunday to get through it.

HOU-TEX
10-31-2006, 03:31 PM
Good, I hope he breaks it completely, so we can see real NFL QB play instead of Carr who is stealing Mr. Mcnair's money. It's interesting that today is holloween, because I hear someone in the Carr household is pretending to be an NFL QB.

Sunday was my Waterloo. My line in the sand. My provebial straw that broke the camel's back. I have seen enough. I will never, ever, again support Carr as our starting QB. He may make some good plays, or have a good game again, but two plays Sunday convinced me that Carr has rocks for brains, and we will never win a damn thing with Carr at the helm. If we ever want to win the SB, which should be our goal, Carr will not be our QB. Of that I am 150% convinced. Send him on his way, where some other guru will insist that he is the one to tap all of this supposed potential out of Carr. Personally, the next time I see this guy in a Texans uniform will be too soon for me. I might need a puke bag from an airplane Sunday to get through it.

Allrightythen. :backsout:

Texan_Bill
10-31-2006, 03:45 PM
I am not sure I follow everyone's argument here, but what I find interesting is that Brady has 40 more attempts than Carr, yet Carr has one more completion than Brady........... But here's the interesting part, they both average 6.89 yards per completion.....

real
10-31-2006, 03:48 PM
I am not sure I follow everyone's argument here, but what I find interesting is that Brady has 40 more attempts than Carr, yet Carr has one more completion than Brady........... But here's the interesting part, they both average 6.89 yards per completion.....

Bingo.

TexansSeminole
10-31-2006, 03:48 PM
I am not sure I follow everyone's argument here, but what I find interesting is that Brady has 40 more attempts than Carr, yet Carr has one more completion than Brady........... But here's the interesting part, they both average 6.89 yards per completion.....

What Brady has is the knowledge and experience to do the little basic things like hold on to the ball, his ability to utilize his receivers, and he doesn't make stupid decisions in key situations. Carr has not developed this yet.

TPIMP
10-31-2006, 03:53 PM
Classic...shows how misleading stats are. The QB's you listed throw the ball down field and challenge the defense with regularity, something Carr struggles with and was highlighted when Sage came in and made plays in the same exact offense...downfield. Challenging a defense in the seam or over the linebacker drops on a consistent basis opens up everything else in your offense. The QB's you listed win games with the same stats...but they get the ball up the field more often...there is a lesson there somewhere.

The lesson is teams win games not QB's alone.

Double Barrel
10-31-2006, 03:54 PM
I am not sure I follow everyone's argument here, but what I find interesting is that Brady has 40 more attempts than Carr, yet Carr has one more completion than Brady........... But here's the interesting part, they both average 6.89 yards per completion.....

It's yet another example that stats can be completely misleading.

Nobody would ever put Carr in a class with Brady, who is a multi-Champion QB and is the epitome of cool under pressure.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 04:02 PM
I am not sure I follow everyone's argument here, but what I find interesting is that Brady has 40 more attempts than Carr, yet Carr has one more completion than Brady........... But here's the interesting part, they both average 6.89 yards per completion.....

Brady has 20 passes completed over 20+ yards...... who knows how many he threw... he (like Carr) has 2 completed over 40+....

Porky
10-31-2006, 04:02 PM
It's yet another example that stats can be completely misleading.

Nobody would ever put Carr in a class with Brady, who is a multi-Champion QB and is the epitome of cool under pressure.

I would trade David Carr, Andre Johnson, and Mario Williams for Tom Brady tomorrow in a heartbeat, and I wouldn't even have to think about it.

TPIMP
10-31-2006, 04:06 PM
I would trade David Carr, Andre Johnson, and Mario Williams for Tom Brady tomorrow in a heartbeat, and I wouldn't even have to think about it.

I would take the Patriots with David Carr in a heart beat.

JDizzle
10-31-2006, 04:20 PM
I would take the Patriots with David Carr in a heart beat.

Are you saying you'd rather have the Pats with Carr over Brady?

Battle Red Flash
10-31-2006, 04:23 PM
Exactly, you cannot compare Carr to other NFL QB's that throw the ball down the field. 2 and 3 yard passes are almost always completed and rarely intercepted. His stats are misleading. I judge him by what I see on Sundays not what the stats say afterwards.

It's called the West Coast offense. Lots of short passes. And on Wednesdays, check the Chronicle for yards per completion. Carr is in the top half of the league.

Porky
10-31-2006, 04:27 PM
I would take the Patriots with David Carr in a heart beat.

I hope you like losing seasons, and lot's of them then. Have fun, while Brady wins, and wins big here in Houston.

ArlingtonTexan
10-31-2006, 04:29 PM
I would take the Patriots with David Carr in a heart beat.

and you would find out how much the QB matters.

JDizzle
10-31-2006, 04:32 PM
It's called the West Coast offense. Lots of short passes. And on Wednesdays, check the Chronicle for yards per completion. Carr is in the top half of the league.

So we ran a different offense when Sage came in?

Texan_Bill
10-31-2006, 04:33 PM
I would trade David Carr, Andre Johnson, and Mario Williams for Tom Brady tomorrow in a heartbeat, and I wouldn't even have to think about it.

Actually I would love to see that, because then the Texans could play Brady on offense - drop back throw the ball to himself, play both ways and on special teams.....

We'd be 16-0 baby!! :redtowel:

TexansSeminole
10-31-2006, 06:37 PM
I would trade David Carr, Andre Johnson, and Mario Williams for Tom Brady tomorrow in a heartbeat, and I wouldn't even have to think about it.

First off, that would just put us back so many years as to where Brady was way out of his prime by the time we were any good. Secondly, the Patriots would be rediculous with Richard Seymour and Mario Williams.

Porky
10-31-2006, 07:09 PM
First off, that would just put us back so many years as to where Brady was way out of his prime by the time we were any good. Secondly, the Patriots would be rediculous with Richard Seymour and Mario Williams.

I think you miss the entire point of that trade, but that's cool by me. Rock on. :redtowel:

srstex
10-31-2006, 07:20 PM
Before we trade him, why not let him call the plays for an entire game, just to see.
Don't get me wrong I like Carr's numbers this year, but we need more points. Besides if Carr fails calling the plays it's another reason tp trade him.
Personally, I think trade/draft to bring in good O linemen, before we trade Carr or do anything else.

ArlingtonTexan
10-31-2006, 08:30 PM
Before we trade him, why not let him call the plays for an entire game, just to see.
Don't get me wrong I like Carr's numbers this year, but we need more points. Besides if Carr fails calling the plays it's another reason tp trade him.
Personally, I think trade/draft to bring in good O linemen, before we trade Carr or do anything else.

Exactly how many QBs in the league call thier own plays?

TexansSeminole
10-31-2006, 08:32 PM
Exactly how many QBs in the league call thier own plays?

Especially when their head coach is a great play caller?

Kaiser Toro
10-31-2006, 08:52 PM
Before we trade him, why not let him call the plays for an entire game, just to see.
Don't get me wrong I like Carr's numbers this year, but we need more points. Besides if Carr fails calling the plays it's another reason tp trade him.
Personally, I think trade/draft to bring in good O linemen, before we trade Carr or do anything else.

That would be tantamount to putting the Carr before the Kubiak. ;)

gafftop
10-31-2006, 09:31 PM
You know they talk about the game slowing down and not moving so fast, I don't think the game has slowed down for DC. I think he panics, how else can you explain his pass to the whole Titans secondary.

tsip
10-31-2006, 09:43 PM
You know they talk about the game slowing down and not moving so fast, I don't think the game has slowed down for DC. I think he panics, how else can you explain his pass to the whole Titans secondary.

...maybe true and-if so-Carr maybe in the wrong job--Caper's regime 'slowed' the offense down to a 'crawl' for Carr and never installed most of Palmer's playbook...Kubiak has said as much about his playbook...so we have a QB that can't read defenses/has zero pocket management skills/slow to learn/turns the ball over...but he's going to lead us to the SB!!???...got some 'swamp' land for sale--real cheap:yikes: :brickwall :redtowel:

New_Texans
10-31-2006, 09:51 PM
So we ran a different offense when Sage came in?


Its called down by 20 in the 3rd offense, many teams in the nfl do it.

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2006, 10:04 PM
Carr is and almost always has been a 'dink and dunk' passer in the NFL, with a very weak vertical passing game...rarely uses the middle of the field, which reduces the risk of incompletions...and greatly inflates his high percentage rate...

And yet, it's the types of passes he's been throwing his whole career and until Kubiak came, he was a sub 60% thrower. Kubiak has "fixed" his accuracy up to 70%.

I think Kubiak is approaching this 1 or 2 things at a time. There are a lot of things with David that he's fixed that we don't see. It's like Kubiak said in the press conference, David is making the right decisions in practice and then in the games, he's doing something different. I think Kubiak is trying to get him to look further up the field but he's still battling all the work the coaches did last year.

I mean... I had studied one martial art for a couple of years and had it drilled into me that when someone raises their leg for a kick, you move inside, jam the kick, and either grapple and sweep the bottom leg or use your hands. Then I moved and started studying at a different place and a different art. This guy wanted me to back out when I saw a high kick. But I kept moving in because that was what I had been trained to do. So I was sparring and the sensei was yelling at me to move back. Over and over and over. I couldn't get it. Until I finally I was sparring (with the sensei looking over my shoulder), I saw a high kick coming, and instead of either moving forward or moving back (or doing anything that remotely made sense), I tried to block it with my hand and broke my thumb.

I think that's what's happening to David right now. He knows what Kubiak wants him to do, he's still doing some of the stuff that Palmer wanted him to do, and sometimes he just does weird stuff no one can explain. He's gotten some of the lessons that Kubiak is teaching him but he's had some stuff drilled into him and it's hard to get rid of that stuff. He's made some tremendous improvement; let's give Kubiak some time to turn the rest of it around. I think he deserves it whether you think DC does or not.

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2006, 10:15 PM
My first observation would be to say that most of those guys are on winning teams. I would like to see how he stacks up against QB's on losing teams since they are normally playing catch up. Also what is the term of those stats, just this year?

I don't know if anyone has answered this, yet, but... out of the top 30 QB's in passing yards this year, Carr is 14th in lowest YPA

1. McNair - 5.59
2. Frye - 5.95
3. Plummer - 6.09
4. Walter - 6.25
5. Favre - 6.31
6. Leftwich - 6.33
7. Delhomme - 6.40
8. Johnson - 6.53
9. Losman - 6.66
10. Smith - 6.84
11. Vick - 6.85
12. Bledsoe - 6.88
13. Brady - 6.88

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2006, 10:18 PM
People can keep harping on the dink and dunk stuff, but prior to this game, Carr was averaging a bit over 7 yards per pass attempt. He's now averaging 6.89, which is tied with Tom Brady. Eli Manning has 7.18, Carson Palmer has 7.26, and Rivers has 7.31, for example. Manning has the most, from my cursory examination, with 8.02.


McNabb is getting 8.33 in a dink and dunk system where Westbrook breaks the hell out of them.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 10:18 PM
And yet, it's the types of passes he's been throwing his whole career and until Kubiak came, he was a sub 60% thrower. Kubiak has "fixed" his accuracy up to 70%.


Or....... maybe Kubiak got him better recievers??

I agree with the rest of your post.

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2006, 10:19 PM
Or....... maybe Kubiak got him better recievers??


Touche. And told him to start throwing to the TE, too.

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2006, 10:25 PM
You can't blame a guy for playing the scheme he is being coached in. Sure Carr is throwing short passes, but thats what is being asked of him. He is completing 70% of his throws. End of story. There is no "excuses" that make anything reasonable here.

We don't know if Carr is missing the longer reads. From what Kubiak has said, I think Carr is supposed to be hitting some guys a bit further down the field but he's going to the guys he knows are open as quickly as he can because he doesn't expect to have much time in the pocket.

The Pencil Neck
10-31-2006, 10:30 PM
I think he panics, how else can you explain his pass to the whole Titans secondary.

They were open?

Battle Red Flash
11-01-2006, 02:01 PM
According to the Chron:
Average gain per throw; Brady; 6.89, Carr; 6.89

Two dink and dunkers. But Carr completes 70%, and Brady 58%

I trust Kubiak, not other fans. Carr is the starter.