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dalemurphy
10-30-2006, 08:20 AM
Let's get this out of the way and agree that Carr shouldn't have fumbled and he needs to improve his feel in the pocket. Also, he made a horrible pass on the first quarter interception.

Now, that was a pathetic display by those two tackles yesterday. They basically stalled every drive of the first three quarters with a combination of whiffing on blocks and penalties. It's inexcusable to me that professional football players can show up and play that way- as if they're disinterested or rookies playing in their first game... Unfortunately, they're both men with about 10 years of experience and neither were overmatched physically. Odom and Vandebosch, come on!!

Texans Horror
10-30-2006, 08:24 AM
I hear a lot of talk about benching Carr and the quarterback controversy, but I don't think it is as important as the tackle controversy. IMO, Weigert and Salaam lost the game for us. Their ineffectivity at the line caused sacks, fumbles, penalties, and in general allowed the defense to get in Carr's head (in the bad way). Carr looked lost in the third quarter, the way he has looked lost in past years after getting sacked constantly.

Instead of benching Carr, Sherman needs to bench these two linemen. I hate to say put Bedell in. Bedell has looked worse than Salaam, but Salaam was weak. Salaam's history points to blow-ups where he turns into a turnstile, and I think it is happening here. When Salaam has done it in the past, it has led to some really nasty sacks on Byron Leftwich (Salaam was benched after allowing too many sacks while he played at Jax).

Winston needs to step up, cause Weigert might as well not be there. Vanden Bosch would have had more sacks if not for the penalties.

All in all, it is time to consider this latest tackle experiment dead. Start the new one. Winston and Bedell.

gwallaia
10-30-2006, 08:30 AM
Salaam does not belong in the NFL.

JDizzle
10-30-2006, 08:31 AM
I'm willing to bet money that Winston takes Weakgerts spot. Or perhaps he moves back in to RG while Winston plays RT, who knows, but Zach is not good at RT.

beerlover
10-30-2006, 08:33 AM
I've been saying since Spencer was lost for the season the Texans need to re-think the LT position and if this continues without a soultion into the offseason the Texans need to make that 1st pick of the draft a franchise type LT :twocents:

kingh99
10-30-2006, 08:38 AM
Sage didn't seem to expose them as much. Of course he's not afraid of the ball like David so that could explain a lot. When I say afraid of the ball, I am metaphorically comparing David's pocket presence and Sage's as one would compare little leaguers standing at the plate.

Runner
10-30-2006, 08:46 AM
Weigert and Salaam have been barely holding on this year. Carr had helped make them look better in previous games by getting rid of the ball pretty quickly. Even when they weren’t giving up sacks in previous games Carr was getting hit just as he released the ball though. Our tackles weren’t playing as well as the sack totals may have led people to believe. Yesterday Carr regressed and crumbled and that just highlighted the play of our tackles.

The injury to Spencer hurt this team, and the decisions made before and after that hurt the team even more. It should be no surprise that Salaam has injuries – he has a lot of wear and tear on his body and expecting him to start and be healthy 14 games was more wishful thinking than a logical decision. His original role was to play spot duty and back up both tackle positions. He could have done that pretty well; however he is no longer capable of being a full time left tackle. When Spencer went down, we needed the best left tackle we could find, not the best guy for playing right and left tackle.

Weigert is much the same injury wise. I’m surprised he hasn’t missed time due to injury yet, but every game is a roll of the dice with him. He is also clearly past his prime and doesn’t have the lateral movement to play tackle anymore.

This isn’t hindsight; I made the same points when final roster moves were made. The coaches made a serious error when they decided to keep nine o-lineman instead of ten on the roster at the start of the year. We had a chance to have some quality depth on the o-line and at the tackle spot for the first time in franchise history. Many if not most teams carry ten offensive lineman on the 53 man roster; it wouldn’t have been unusual. At the start of the year we were carrying four tight ends, now we are carrying two fullbacks. It seems that o-line depth would have been more important than these types of seldom used or even dressed players taking up a valuable roster spot.

We are starting a guard/tackle at RT, a swing tackle at left tackle, and our back-ups are another guard/tackle and a guy we are forcing into the swing tackle role. I would have liked to see ten lineman on the roster and then see a left tackle playing left tackle and a right tackle playing right tackle.

eriadoc
10-30-2006, 09:03 AM
On the Carr fumbles, it wasn't as if he was holding on to the ball an eternity. I've seen worse from him many points in the past. I thought Carr was releasing the ball in a reasonable amount of time. Wiegert, however, was a turnstile for a good period of time. Vandenbosch had four sacks and a forced fumble. The refs took two of those sacks away, but they still happened. For all the Carr/Sage talk, everyone seems to be brushing Wiegert's play under the carpet. Kubiak needed to send a message to Carr, and that's fine. But as long as the Texans QB (whoever it is) has to deal with that kind of pressure, the QB play will be inconsistent.

For all the draft talk about getting Peterson, Quinn, or whoever, I really hope (again this year) that we go out and draft a stud LT like we should have this year. I don't even care if they put Quinton Porter back there at QB - just fix the damn line.

Mr. White
10-30-2006, 09:14 AM
Seems like Salaam was having a tough time with Rosenfels snap count. I think all 3 of his false starts were while Sage was playing.

Mr teX
10-30-2006, 09:17 AM
Sage didn't seem to expose them as much. Of course he's not afraid of the ball like David so that could explain a lot. When I say afraid of the ball, I am metaphorically comparing David's pocket presence and Sage's as one would compare little leaguers standing at the plate.

You keep talking of DC's pocket presence, I saw DC step up in the Pocket on all of his fumble plays the pocket just collapsed too fast, I didn't see Sage have to deal with that 1/2 as much when he played.

That's not to excuse DC's fumbles, but it was not "night & day" as you're making it out to be.

Texans Horror
10-30-2006, 09:21 AM
These two are bringing the offense down with them. They need to be removed/replaced before the situation gets worse and somebody (QB/RB) gets hurt.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 09:22 AM
You keep talking of DC's pocket presence, I saw DC step up in the Pocket on all of his fumble plays the pocket just collapsed too fast, I didn't see Sage have to deal with that 1/2 as much when he played.

That's not to excuse DC's fumbles, but it was not "night & day" as you're making it out to be.

Why does Carr get knocked silly in the pocket but when we put Banks or Rosenfelds in, their uniforms are hardly dirty. Either David's the most unlucky QB in the world or it's something else. The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a differentr result.

Texans Horror
10-30-2006, 09:25 AM
Why does Carr get knocked silly in the pocket but when we put Banks or Rosenfelds in, their uniforms are hardly dirty. Either David's the most unlucky QB in the world or it's something else. The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a differentr result.

For one, Carr runs. But I don't think that is what you are implying. I still think it's because the tackles aren't performing, which allows the defense to psyche out and frustrate Carr. If he doesn't believe he will have a chance to throw the ball, he won't be able to. Looking at game tape, I am sure you cannot directly blame 100% of Carr's ineffectivities on the line play, but in a way, it's all linked. He needs a line, and we've never given him one.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 09:28 AM
For one, Carr runs. But I don't think that is what you are implying. I still think it's because the tackles aren't performing, which allows the defense to psyche out and frustrate Carr. If he doesn't believe he will have a chance to throw the ball, he won't be able to. Looking at game tape, I am sure you cannot directly blame 100% of Carr's ineffectivities on the line play, but in a way, it's all linked. He needs a line, and we've never given him one.

I for one am sick of the line excuse. Carr is always readying for the jarring hit. He's damaged goods. Get rid of him. When he sat, whatever shortcomings the line have were hidden. They looked great and we scored on damn near every possession with Rosenfelds running it. This is bizarro world with this team.

Runner
10-30-2006, 09:32 AM
For one, Carr runs. But I don't think that is what you are implying. I still think it's because the tackles aren't performing, which allows the defense to psyche out and frustrate Carr. If he doesn't believe he will have a chance to throw the ball, he won't be able to. Looking at game tape, I am sure you cannot directly blame 100% of Carr's ineffectivities on the line play, but in a way, it's all linked. He needs a line, and we've never given him one.

I for one am sick of the line excuse. Carr is always readying for the jarring hit. He's damaged goods. Get rid of him. When he sat, whatever shortcomings the line have were hidden. They looked great and we scored on damn near every possession with Rosenfelds running it. This is bizarro world with this team.

I think the game yesterday had enough badness in it that Carr, Weigert, and Salaam can all get full portions. It isn't either-or.

Texans Horror
10-30-2006, 09:36 AM
I for one am sick of the line excuse. Carr is always readying for the jarring hit. He's damaged goods. Get rid of him. When he sat, whatever shortcomings the line have were hidden. They looked great and we scored on damn near every possession with Rosenfelds running it. This is bizarro world with this team.

But for six games the line was playing badly and Carr was compensating for it, JMO. The one game he isn't able to compensate for the poor line play, everybody wants to bench him. I agree with you, though, that this feels very bizarre.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 09:39 AM
Close your eyes and think of one time Carr stood in a collapsing pocket and made a throw, regardless if it were for an incompletion, interception or completion. I do not recall it. If someone is "shell shocked" then put him in rehab because he should not have his finger on the trigger. We will see how he responds next week.

Runner
10-30-2006, 09:50 AM
Close your eyes and think of one time Carr stood in a collapsing pocket and made a throw, regardless if it were for an incompletion, interception or completion. I do not recall it. If someone is "shell shocked" then put him in rehab because he should not have his finger on the trigger. We will see how he responds next week.

I thought he had been doing that a lot this year - he's certainly been hit enough as he releases throws. However, the end result may be as you suspect - he might be ruined.

The negative synergy between Carr and the line is something to behold - they are worse than the sum of their parts.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 09:54 AM
The negative synergy between Carr and the line is something to behold - they are worse than the sum of their parts.

Kubiak controlled that variable yesterday by taking Carr out. Carr had an opportunity to see it live, which is the best thing that has happened to this offense in a long time. I truly hope he rises to the occasion next week.

HOU-TEX
10-30-2006, 09:57 AM
Kubiak controlled that variable yesterday by taking Carr out. Carr had an opportunity to see it live, which is the best thing that has happened to this offense in a long time. I truly hope he rises to the occasion next week.

Agreed! If he doesn't, it'll get nasty real quick in NY.

Something has to be done to protect his backside. Winston?

Texans Horror
10-30-2006, 10:04 AM
I think it's time to try Winston. He looked ready to play when he came in for Salaam. He's also fresh and a lot younger.

On the other hand, everything I have heard is that he is anything but ready...

Lucky
10-30-2006, 10:08 AM
Can someone explain to me (again), why not Chester Pitts at LT? He's not a superstar, maybe only a short-term solution. But I still think he's the best LT the Texans have on the roster.

Kubiak has said that he has 3 starters at guard, so he should have confidence that McKinney & Weary can get the job done. I'd just like to see the Texans get through this season with the QBs intact, and I think Pitts at LT is the best bet.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 10:10 AM
I think it's time to try Winston. He looked ready to play when he came in for Salaam. He's also fresh and a lot younger.

On the other hand, everything I have heard is that he is anything but ready...

He did a fine job of holding his guy and pulling him to the ground on one of Sage's touchdown passes :).

Runner
10-30-2006, 10:21 AM
Can someone explain to me (again), why not Chester Pitts at LT? He's not a superstar, maybe only a short-term solution. But I still think he's the best LT the Texans have on the roster.

Kubiak has said that he has 3 starters at guard, so he should have confidence that McKinney & Weary can get the job done. I'd just like to see the Texans get through this season with the QBs intact, and I think Pitts at LT is the best bet.

The roster decisions on the 0-line are so murky they are pretty much inexplicable. They'll bench and cut single role players even though that is what we clearly need, but lock Pitts into one position.

The benching of Carr was a huge step in the coaches' development and willingness to possibly admit a mistake. Maybe they'll be willing to look at other areas where their decisions may have not panned out?

Big J
10-30-2006, 10:41 AM
No way we draft a lineman in the first round next year. However, I do expect us to use at least 2 picks on the line, assuming we dont pick up lineman in free agency.

Everyone should have known that a line doesnt gel overnight. A more realistic expectation would be to see our line finally assembled in two years. I do expect dramatic improvement next year though. But that isnt saying much.

Just think when Spencer, Pitts, (A new center), (new gaurd), and Winston. Hopefully we can see this phase start in the offseason, aka get Wiegert the **** out. Leave Salaam to have depth at LT until we can draft a back up.

After seeing how this season is playing out, it looks like alot of teams are going to be capable of 5-6 wins (How in the hell did the Raiders win) that were expected to do worse. Could be a high pick again so quality depth will start to compile, assuming our new GM doesnt trade a 2 and 3 round pick for a bust or a 2,3,and 4 pick for a player lost in the lineup.

I still see tons of improvement this season and while the game was a setback, hopefully the team comes back strong in NY and stays competitive.

xfive4x
10-30-2006, 11:29 AM
Salaam does not belong in the NFL.

Indeed, I was soo glad when the Jags got rid of him. I never understood why he gets as much pub as he does.

Texans Horror
10-30-2006, 12:15 PM
Indeed, I was soo glad when the Jags got rid of him. I never understood why he gets as much pub as he does.

ex-Bronco...

Crazyhorse
10-30-2006, 05:16 PM
If they would give Eric Winston an opportunity he will shine at either tackle position. Remember this guy was voted the best LEFT tackle in the ACC last year(voted by the DC of each team). He went in for Saalam in the second period and we moved the ball very well and threw the ball too without a problem. Then when we get to the red zone they put Saalam back in for one of his many false starts. Eric played a good part of the second half and good things happened again. All I'm saying is let the kid play! He is healthy and ready unlike the two lame horses we have in the race now....
Will he make mistakes probably a few but that's how we all learned to be better. Is Sherman concerned that if Eric emerges as a solid left tackle he might have to find a new place for his pup when he heals??????????

ccdude730
10-30-2006, 05:40 PM
I thought he had been doing that a lot this year - he's certainly been hit enough as he releases throws. However, the end result may be as you suspect - he might be ruined.

The negative synergy between Carr and the line is something to behold - they are worse than the sum of their parts.

another big one was on that INT he threw early against the tacks. has anybody gone back to see the hit carr took on that play?

im ready to see what winston brings to the line after working out with the 1st team all week...but at LT or RT? i shouldnt even have to ask this question but its gotten so bad i dont even know the answer.

mexican_texan
10-30-2006, 05:50 PM
I thought Winston played well, but as they said in the pregame show, he's being asked to learn both tackle positions as well as TE.

Lucky
10-30-2006, 05:51 PM
another big one was on that INT he threw early against the tacks. has anybody gone back to see the hit carr took on that play?
At the time, I thought it was a low hit and should have drawn a flag. I went back and looked at the play, and I was right. LaBoy hit Carr in the knee after the ball was released. Both Bruener and Salaam whiffed on their double team block.