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TheRealJoker
10-29-2006, 10:58 PM
I guess it was just me but I happened to see 2 of the worst performances in our O-Line's storied history turned in by Salaam and Wiegert. I also happened to see our special teams turn in a rather lackluster showing. Not to mention i've yet to see ANYONE even hint that Peek whiffed on 3 potential tackles off the top of my head, including the one where he had Vince wrapped up in the backfield and Vince shrugged him off and ran it in for a td.

There were many more mistakes but to keep my rant short...by saying Carr had a bad game today would be an understatement, but dont let the Carr haters on this board who have been waiting under their respective bridges keyboard in hand for the opportunity to crucify DC fool you into thinking Carr was the sole reason we lost this game today.

We win as a team and we lose as a team, it is a team game afterall.

PS: I hope Jeff Fisher can sleep tonight knowing he played a scumbag wankster that spits on women just to beat us :crying:

bah007
10-29-2006, 11:02 PM
The Carr lovers hype every win like Carr won the game by himself.

The Carr haters hype every loss like Carr is the worst player in the league.

It seems as if there is no middle ground here.

I have an idea. The Houston Texans blew this game & lost.

Not the Houson David Carrs.

Grid
10-29-2006, 11:02 PM
1. Carr didnt step into the pocket
2. Carr had no pocket awareness
3. Carr didnt protect the ball
4. Carr threw into 4 defenders

3 of our 5 turnovers were Carrs fault.. plain and simple. Did the pass blocking suck? yah it was pretty bad.. honestly its no excuse. Carr was supposed to be past all this.. he was supposed to have gained the ability to feel his pocket collapsing.. but he didnt. His head wasnt in the game, and as a result, he gave up 2 fumbles and an interception. Carr was responsible for handing the Titans 21 of thier points. Thats pretty bad.

Wordem
10-29-2006, 11:03 PM
Blame Bob McNair. It's his team. He screwed up. The 2006 draft will haunt the Texans for years.

bah007
10-29-2006, 11:05 PM
1. Carr didnt step into the pocket
2. Carr had no pocket awareness
3. Carr didnt protect the ball
4. Carr threw into 4 defenders

3 of our 5 turnovers were Carrs fault.. plain and simple. Did the pass blocking suck? yah it was pretty bad.. honestly its no excuse. Carr was supposed to be past all this.. he was supposed to have gained the ability to feel his pocket collapsing.. but he didnt. His head wasnt in the game, and as a result, he gave up 2 fumbles and an interception. Carr was responsible for handing the Titans 21 of thier points. Thats pretty bad.

What happened to all the people who cried & yelled when we went conservative at the end of the first half against Miami?

Now we try to do something & you people are now the ones saying it was a horrible idea.

NO QB can pass without protection.

Everyone on this board thought we would walk all over the Titans. Apparently our team did too.

Carr was horrible, but the team played like they either wanted to lose or already thought they had won.

hellbentforfootball
10-29-2006, 11:09 PM
So the golden boy has a terrible game.....is he perfect no...but it really seems like that is what this message board is about. It's knocking the kid. Look as a season ticket holder, what I saw today made me sick. But it wasn't just the golden boy's play, it was terrible clock management, hurry up offense (where was that), bringing in Dane when we were having success w/out him and droppped balls that resulted in INT's. The point is-you freaking ney sayers- you no where to be found last week and now I can hear it from the radio to newspaper to this freakin message board. Today's loss was bad however it was NOT all the golden boy's sole responsibility.

Grid
10-29-2006, 11:09 PM
What happened to all the people who cried & yelled when we went conservative at the end of the first half against Miami?

Now we try to do something & you people are now the ones saying it was a horrible idea.

What in the world are you talking about?

NO QB can pass without protection.

I agree..but they CAN dump it off.. or run.. or at the very least.. fall down without turning the ball over. To do that though, the QB needs to actually realize that the sack is coming.. and to do that, he has to be aware of his surroundings. Something that Carr was NOT capable of being against the titans....which is very disconcerting.

Carr was horrible, but the team played like they either wanted to lose or already thought they had won.
Reply With Quote

Bullpucky.

The team played great. AJ made a couple bad drops..he still made plays though... but Lundy had a stellar game.. Daniels had a stellar game.. Mario stepped up..our whole defense stepped up and was stopping the titans. Kinda hard to win when your offense turns the ball over in thier own territory over and over and over and over.

AustinJB
10-29-2006, 11:12 PM
1. Carr didnt step into the pocket
2. Carr had no pocket awareness
3. Carr didnt protect the ball
4. Carr threw into 4 defenders

3 of our 5 turnovers were Carrs fault.. plain and simple. Did the pass blocking suck? yah it was pretty bad.. honestly its no excuse. Carr was supposed to be past all this.. he was supposed to have gained the ability to feel his pocket collapsing.. but he didnt. His head wasnt in the game, and as a result, he gave up 2 fumbles and an interception. Carr was responsible for handing the Titans 21 of thier points. Thats pretty bad.

Exactly!

The line did suck, but Sage still found a way to rise above it and make plays. Interesting how the same offensive line against the same defense didn't give up a sack when Sage was in the game and scored 3 TDs, but gave up 4 sacks and no TDs with Carr in the game. Coincidence?? I think not.:cool:

Grid
10-29-2006, 11:16 PM
Carr was the biggest contributor to the loss. AJ dropped one pass for an int, and dropped a pass that would have moved the chains at a crucial time. Saalam had a lot of bad penalties and probably kept us from scoring at least 7 points.

But if you take away Carrs horrible performance, we win the game. You really think that Sage came in and did something spectacular? he didnt..he just made the plays that were opened to him.. and he did it with the same poor protection that Carr had. Bottom line.. Carr was sucking.. he gave the titans the majority of thier points with his two fumbles and the stupid pass for an interception.

I didnt say anything last week cause there was nothing to say. it was a great game and we went out there and played hard and won. The root of the problem is inconsistency, and the reason that it is a big deal NOW is because we played a good game OTHER THAN Carr. Yah the pass protection was shoddy..we had some bad penalties and AJ dropped a couple.. but we still had that game in the bag..easy... if Carr hadnt made the crucial mistakes that he did.

ive said this about 50 times today.. but we are a team struggling with consistancy.. and we cannot afford to have the general of our offense making boneheaded mistakes that drags the whole team down. We are trying to rise above that type of play and Carr just wasnt rising with everyone else today. We cant afford to have him holding the team back at this juncture..we need to keep growing.


All that being said.. im fine with Kubiak starting him.. maybe it was just a fluke? maybe the benching will keep him focused in the future? I dunno.. but thats fine..lets see how he handles this. If the Carr I saw today shows its ugly head again though.. then im hoping we will put in Sage, and draft Carr's replacement this offseason.

Mr.Scarface
10-29-2006, 11:18 PM
Um...if u didnt notice, the Titans stop blitzing when Sage went in. Their whole defensive scheme was different, protecting the lead

Grid
10-29-2006, 11:20 PM
your right..i didnt notice that.. in fact i noticed sage having defenders in his face quite often.

Are you sure that was the case? Cause on every passing play it seemed, sage was getting pressured.

TheRealJoker
10-29-2006, 11:21 PM
I didnt say anything last week cause there was nothing to say. it was a great game and we went out there and played hard and won.


So if we win every week you'll never post on this board again?

ArlingtonTexan
10-29-2006, 11:22 PM
The Carr lovers hype every win like Carr won the game by himself.

The Carr haters hype every loss like Carr is the worst player in the league.

It seems as if there is no middle ground here.

I have an idea. The Houston Texans blew this game & lost.

Not the Houson David Carrs.

There really is a solid core of people who post on this board who are not reactionary extremist, but get drowned out by either side or drawn into debates which push them closer to one edge than they really represent. It is not going to be easy to hear those voices over the next week, but the middle ground does exist.

Grid
10-29-2006, 11:25 PM
So if we win every week you'll never post on this board again?

Hah... i dont know how to respond to that. Ive been the voice of homerism on this board so long... it cracks me up that im being treated like a fairweather/chicken little.

I guess my answer is.. no, if we win every week ill still be posting.. but my posts will be shorter and consist of lots of "woooo"'s and "yeeehaaaww"'s.

Dime
10-29-2006, 11:29 PM
Why are we dealing with absolutes?

Either it is all him or not?

Carr is part of a team. Being that, One man CAN be greatly responsible for the win or the loss of a game. It takes the entire team to put you in position to win, but one man failing in his play can disrupt a entire team or game.

Carr was this man today. Did he have help? Oh yeah. Several members on the Oline did not help him, and even AJ contributed a bit. That being said, no other position in football has as much responsibility as the QB position. A QB has the BEST chance to rally a team or send it into despair. This means the QB has the ability to affect the mood of the game. This is where Carr has problems.

David drop the ball today (literally) and Sage ran with it. David was leading the team down a bad road today, and Sage allowed to team a 'new faith' in the game. He almost lead the team to a victory.

There are no absolutes in football... but was Carr MORE responsible today for the first half mood.. and the play of the team? The answer is He contributed a huge part of the mood/mentality and was more at fault then anyone else. Even the poor play of the Offesive line didnt help, which added to the mood.

Texas_Heat
10-29-2006, 11:30 PM
NO it was not BUTTERFINGERS!!!!!!!!!!
fault.
60 fumbles in 67 games he's just the greatest Quarterback of all time.:jumpbanan

Grid
10-29-2006, 11:31 PM
Why are we dealing with absolutes?

Either it is all him or not?

Carr is part of a team. Being that, One man CAN be greatly responsible for the win or the loss of a game. It takes the entire team to put you in position to win, but one man failing in his play can disrupt a entire team or game.

Carr was this man today. Did he have help? Oh yeah. Several members on the Oline did not help him, and even AJ contributed a bit. That being said, no other position in football has as much responsibility as the QB position. A QB has the BEST chance to rally a team or send it into despair. This means the QB has the ability to affect the mood of the game. This is where Carr has problems.

David drop the ball today (literally) and Sage ran with it. David was leading the team down a bad road today, and Sage allowed to team a 'new faith' in the game. He almost lead the team to a victory.

There are no absolutes in football... but was Carr MORE responsible today for the first half mood.. and the play of the team? The answer is He contributed a huge part of the mood/mentality and was more at fault then anyone else. Even the poor play of the Offesive line didnt help, which added to the mood.

Ding ding ding ding.. nail on the head. Said it better than I could.. and ive attempted to make my point in the last 5 or 6 posts :D.

Rep for you (if it will let me).

On that note..im going to bed.. so yall will have to wait till tomorrow for me to respond :D.

Second Honeymoon
10-29-2006, 11:35 PM
Carr had probably his worst outing of the year but sometimes that just happens. If your paying the guy franchise QB money and passing on once in a lifetime talents, he deserves a bit more of a leash imho. Personally, I don't think he should have been benched but obviously Kubiak didn't think Carr's head was in the game. He wanted to send a wake up call. That is the only reasoning I can come up with. Carr has looked pretty darn good this year aside from the acute case of fumbilitis. Today it flared up a bit too much for Kubiak's liking....and mine as well. I just don't know if a benching was the right move based on his improvements in general.

On a positive note, Sage looked pretty darn good and that can only help to push Carr into success or into unemployment line. Hopefully this whole thing works out. It did for Bill Walsh and Steve Young but I don't know if Kubiak/Carr is the same thing as Walsh/Young. Hopefully history repeats itself.

South Texan
10-29-2006, 11:53 PM
Exactly!

The line did suck, but Sage still found a way to rise above it and make plays. Interesting how the same offensive line against the same defense didn't give up a sack when Sage was in the game and scored 3 TDs, but gave up 4 sacks and no TDs with Carr in the game. Coincidence?? I think not.:cool:

In all fairness, I think the Titan's D was in more of a prevent frame of mind by the time Sage got in. That said, IMO Carr looked like he was sitting on his, ummmm, laurels today. Sage looked like a decent NFL quarterback that could be a starter for a lot of teams.

I really wish Kubiak could have gotten to Carr in his first year, instead of dealing with Caper's damaged goods. I think Carr has the physical ability to be a very good QB, what he is dealing with is mental. I suspect the benching decision today was not spur of the moment, but a shock tactic Kubiak has considered for a while.

I see two possible scenarios as a result:
1. Carr is thinking "They can't do that to me, I'm David Carr!!" If this is the case, obviously Sage is our guy for at least the rest of the year.
2. Carr realizes free rides in the Kubiak regime are short lived, time to live up to the hype from when he was drafted.

I have a feeling the Carr questions are going to finally be answered in the next week or two.

trutexan02
10-29-2006, 11:57 PM
I read the message boards pretty often and pretty much everyone in every board I read have opinions that all hinge on the result game. If we win David is a god among men, if we lose he's the biggest waste of a draft pick known man. Last week everyone played up to potential, DC included. I didn't see any "Cut Carr" post then. Why not? As of matter of fact everyone was blameing the running game prior to that game if i recall correctly. The fact is this TEAM needs to step it up in all phases. It can not be David's fault for every sack, every fumble, or every pick. Albeit his pick today was every bit his faut, short arming it. He has had his fair share of bad breaks when it comes to turnovers. More so than most NFL QB's for sure. Bad breaks that come in the form of inconsisitent pass protection, poor run blocking and horrific defense, the list goes on and on. The Texans lost todays game and no one person is directly responsible. We've seen what this offense and defense is capable of. I expect we'll see more of it in the near future.
My personal opinion is that sitting Carr was a good call, but I don't believe he turned the ball over five times. Poor excecution on the part of the line and Special Teams carry the load of responsiblity today. Therefore David should get the keys to this ride and take us to the meadowlands and let's turn in another upset.

One more note.. it could be way worse. We could have Aaron Brooks throwing in to his own empty backfield. Count your blessings.

trutexan02
10-30-2006, 12:00 AM
In all fairness, I think the Titan's D was in more of a prevent frame of mind by the time Sage got in. That said, IMO Carr looked like he was sitting on his, ummmm, laurels today. Sage looked like a decent NFL quarterback that could be a starter for a lot of teams.

I really wish Kubiak could have gotten to Carr in his first year, instead of dealing with Caper's damaged goods. I think Carr has the physical ability to be a very good QB, what he is dealing with is mental. I suspect the benching decision today was not spur of the moment, but a shock tactic Kubiak has considered for a while.

I see two possible scenarios as a result:
1. Carr is thinking "They can't do that to me, I'm David Carr!!" If this is the case, obviously Sage is our guy for at least the rest of the year.
2. Carr realizes free rides in the Kubiak regime are short lived, time to live up to the hype from when he was drafted.

I have a feeling the Carr questions are going to finally be answered in the next week or two.
I agree. Questions will be answered. I am behind Kubes on this one. I see Carr's talent, but that is only gonna take him to the end of the season if he doesn't improve soon.

hollywood_texan
10-30-2006, 12:02 AM
Personally, I don't think he should have been benched but obviously Kubiak didn't think Carr's head was in the game. He wanted to send a wake up call. That is the only reasoning I can come up with.

It was reported that Kubiak told Carr at halftime that if fumbled again, he would be yanked.

Carr fumbled, and Kubiak followed through with what he said.

GNTLEWOLF
10-30-2006, 12:07 AM
I guess I am a middle of the road guy tonight. I've seen a lot of football in my life and many situations where a starter has had a bad game an poor effort. The head coach sends in a back-up and suddenly the game turns around. Miraculously the bad team looks super and the heroic back-up brings the team back for a win. In many of these cases, when the coach decides to let johhny back-up be the starter, he never has a good game again and is soon out of the NFL. Sometimes he does well and takes the starting job.
David Carr had a bad game today. His play may have cost the team the game, but not by himself. Carr has been talented enough over the last few years to keep houston in many lost causes. He has been beat up and frankly he has been used to hurrying passes and running for his life. At the beginning of this season I would never have guessed that he would have calmed down as much as he has. the run-for-your-life mindset is going to take a little time to overcome completely. I think he has earned some time.

StrongArm08
10-30-2006, 12:14 AM
see the "why I wear #8" post

Mattheus_Rex
10-30-2006, 12:18 AM
Yeah all that and blah blah blah. Betcha he starts against the Giants though. He had a bad game and Kubiak benched him, but he'll be starting next week unless he screws something up then too.

Lucky
10-30-2006, 12:22 AM
I hope Jeff Fisher can sleep tonight knowing he played a scumbag wankster that spits on women just to beat us :crying:
If Fisher sat every scumbag on the Ttans, he wouldn't be able to field a punt team.

Look, Carr didn't lose (or is it loose, I forget?) this game by himself. But just an average performance by Carr, and the Texans could have stayed in this game and won in the 2nd half. He can't throw into quadruple coverage. He can't cough up the ball seconds before halftime. Sure, that's easy for me to say. I wasn't getting pounded by Vanden Bosch & LaBoy. I haven't been sacked 200+ times over the past 5 seasons. But Carr has to get past seeing the rush and assuming it will get him if the Texans are going to win the games they should win.

My advice to David: Hypnosis. I know, it sounds crazy. But, it can work if you believe in it. Before I went under hypnosis therapy, I would get drunk and belligerent every weekend. Now, I just get belligerent every weekend.

Napa Auto Parts
10-30-2006, 12:43 AM
it had nothing to do with Carr VY is just so great he made Carr look like the Mediocre Qb we have had for the last five years.:bananasplit:

Texans Horror
10-30-2006, 01:22 AM
Salaam and Weigert lost the game for us. Those fumbles I blame on the line allowing the defense to get to Carr. By the middle of the second quarter, from what I saw, the tackles had done a great job of allowing the Titans D to get to Carr's head. He was seeing flashbacks of last year. Winston looked better than Salaam, who even got hit for three or so offsides penalties. Until we improve the line play, everything else is Butkus. Carr did not lose the game. The team lost the game, but if I were Sherman/Kubiak, I'd be all over those tackles. They should be running laps for that performance.

HJam72
10-30-2006, 01:49 AM
Did Tennessee play a different defensive scheme in the 2nd half? Some prevent maybe? Just wondering, cuz I didn't get to see it.

Note: I think prevent D is completely worthless, unless it's 3rd and very long. Score should have very little to do with whether it is used, IMO.

sleepwalker
10-30-2006, 05:44 AM
60 fumbles in 67 games is a pretty scary stat...Damn, is that really true?

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 06:51 AM
At the QB position yes. Did you see Kubiak after Carr threw into quadruple coverage? He said exactly the same thing every arm chair GM and Monday morning QB says on a weekly basis.

I saw what a 7.2 million cap hit yields with Carr and then I saw what a 1.1 million cap hit yields with Sage. Imagine what we could have done with an extra 6 million and Sage on the field this year.

srstex
10-30-2006, 06:54 AM
Carr needed this, so did Sheppard, but so did AJ, he cost our team another INT. Just like a couple weeks ago when a DB took the ball from him. Sage hits him and instead of catching the ball with his hands, he lets the ball get to his body where it bounces off his shoulder. This is NOT a Great Reciever, this is a man that is hyped too much and it's time he takes blame when it is due, and it is due. The Texans played bad, but only lost by 6, and if AJ catches the ball that could have changed too. Carr was benched-good, but Saleem had 3 false starts to one on the rest of the line and he still played. Everyone on this team needs to be held to the same standards.
Williams did get a sack, Daniels looked good again, three plays lost this game. I see hope. Carr is the starter for the Giants game ( Kubiak ), and I think Carr's reaction to being benched will be telling of his caracter and ability.

MrMeToo
10-30-2006, 07:09 AM
It wasn't all Carr's fault, but most of it was.

Honoring Earl 34
10-30-2006, 07:32 AM
If the Texans score a TD instead of throwing into quad coverage ... they win this game . Carr has got to LEAD on the road .

If the Titans played a different scheme for Sage its because he's not as easily confused ... he'll take shots downfield to the guy who's got man to man coverage .

The OL stunk thats a fact but it does'nt affect Sage the same way ... wonder why . I don't think what ails Carr can be cured , he's a stat guy . The stat most important stat for a QB is W-L .

If Kubiak is'nt careful Carr will be the death of him .

Texans Horror
10-30-2006, 07:34 AM
Total lack of team effort in crunch time. The Texans should have won this one, but the mistakes were costly. And yet, I still think that with better tackles the Texans would have manhandled these guys.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 07:39 AM
We are tired of losing to our bragging rights competition. Carr doesn't inspire. McNairs stuck with him because of his price tag. I pay to watch and I am sick of this little loser. The plays he makes are from the system. You saw that with the way Rosenfelds operated when given the chance.

Texanfan4ever
10-30-2006, 07:53 AM
I guess it was just me but I happened to see 2 of the worst performances in our O-Line's storied history turned in by Salaam and Wiegert. I also happened to see our special teams turn in a rather lackluster showing. Not to mention i've yet to see ANYONE even hint that Peek whiffed on 3 potential tackles off the top of my head, including the one where he had Vince wrapped up in the backfield and Vince shrugged him off and ran it in for a td.

There were many more mistakes but to keep my rant short...by saying Carr had a bad game today would be an understatement, but dont let the Carr haters on this board who have been waiting under their respective bridges keyboard in hand for the opportunity to crucify DC fool you into thinking Carr was the sole reason we lost this game today.

We win as a team and we lose as a team, it is a team game afterall.

PS: I hope Jeff Fisher can sleep tonight knowing he played a scumbag wankster that spits on women just to beat us :crying:


Very well said. And Amen on Jones. I was kind of surprised that Fisher let him play myself. I know why, but it's just unfortunate that he got rewarded for being a pig. As I understand it, that was not his first time.

It would be a hard decision to make. He is a great player, and the Titans need him.

nunusguy
10-30-2006, 07:56 AM
As one who has tried to support Carr even though my heart wasn't always into it, I have to say that his play when he fumbled the ball and the subsequent recovery and return into the EZ by the Titans DLineman for a TD
was unforgivable. With only seconds remaining in the half, a H.S. QB on the field for the Texans wouldn't make that mistake because he would realize that
first and foremost, he has to protect the ball in those circumstances right before the half.
And his pass into quadruple coverage that was intercepted was just, well really difficult to understand ? This is a 5th year NFL QB !

Runner
10-30-2006, 08:18 AM
Carr was benched-good, but Saleem had 3 false starts to one on the rest of the line and he still played. Everyone on this team needs to be held to the same standards.


The coaches need to take real action this time to prove that they think this season is important. Cutting another bit player like Buchanon to "send a message" isn't going to cut it. There were a lot of people that didn't play well. The Texans need to look at some serious moves to the roster or starting line-up. They shouldn't tolerate the penalties and blown assignments. Extra meetings aren't going to fix anything.

Honoring Earl 34
10-30-2006, 08:32 AM
The coaches need to take real action this time to prove that they think this season is important. Cutting another bit player like Buchanon to "send a message" isn't going to cut it. There were a lot of people that didn't play well. The Texans need to look at some serious moves to the roster or starting line-up. They shouldn't tolerate the penalties and blown assignments. Extra meetings aren't going to fix anything.

What if we started a new show ... Texans survivor ? Who would be voted off first .

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 08:36 AM
There were many more mistakes but to keep my rant short...by saying Carr had a bad game today would be an understatement, :crying:

I'm not blaming this loss on Carr.

But for the sake of discussion, what made this game a bad game as opposed to his good games?? What was different??

I don't think this game was any worse than any other game Carr has played.... except maybe the Miami game, that was a good performance by David.

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 08:41 AM
But if you take away Carrs horrible performance, we win the game. You really think that Sage came in and did something spectacular? he didnt..he just made the plays that were opened to him.. and he did it with the same poor protection that Carr had. Bottom line..

Actually, that isn't true.... when Sage came in, we were able to run one back, 4 WRs & still release Owen into the field... So Sage actually had less protection than David.

eriadoc
10-30-2006, 09:16 AM
Carr was the biggest contributor to the loss.

I disagree. Wiegert was the biggest contributor to the loss, but people watch the QB and base the entire game on a QBs performance. Vandenbosch had his way with Wiegert with four sacks and a forced fumble. Salaam's drive-killing false starts didn't help matters either.

Things never change. The backup QB is always the city's favorite player. Bucky Richardson, anyone?

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 09:27 AM
I disagree. Wiegert was the biggest contributor to the loss, but people watch the QB and base the entire game on a QBs performance. Vandenbosch had his way with Wiegert with four sacks and a forced fumble. Salaam's drive-killing false starts didn't help matters either.

Things never change. The backup QB is always the city's favorite player. Bucky Richardson, anyone?

I do not disagree with your observations, but what is discounted here is how the other 10 players responded (save for AJ) to another signal caller under center.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 09:31 AM
I disagree. Wiegert was the biggest contributor to the loss, but people watch the QB and base the entire game on a QBs performance. Vandenbosch had his way with Wiegert with four sacks and a forced fumble. Salaam's drive-killing false starts didn't help matters either.

Things never change. The backup QB is always the city's favorite player. Bucky Richardson, anyone?

I agree. David Carr plays a lot like Bucky Richardson. Great comparison.

real
10-30-2006, 09:32 AM
Actually, that isn't true.... when Sage came in, we were able to run one back, 4 WRs & still release Owen into the field... So Sage actually had less protection than David.

I didn't watch the game but on the radio this morning they basically said the same thing...

They said that Sage reads coverages better than David and is able to make decisions quicker...

kingh99
10-30-2006, 09:38 AM
I didn't watch the game but on the radio this morning they basically said the same thing...

They said that Sage reads coverages better than David and is able to make decisions quicker...

No way. I heard it was the O-line. They don't hold the block long enough for David. He's doing something wrong. He's tipping his game. David and my boy Brad Lidge need to go on a long cruise, get really drunk in the Casino, win a ton of money and flash it around to the staff. Then take a long walk on the deck.

Napa Auto Parts
10-30-2006, 11:50 AM
Then sage must of made VY look like a rookie. :wild:



Yes oh wait he is a rookie.

BuffSoldier
10-30-2006, 12:03 PM
Exactly!

The line did suck, but Sage still found a way to rise above it and make plays. Interesting how the same offensive line against the same defense didn't give up a sack when Sage was in the game and scored 3 TDs, but gave up 4 sacks and no TDs with Carr in the game. Coincidence?? I think not.:cool:

If you had actually payed attention to the Titans defense, you would have noticed that they blitzed Carr, but after gaining a large lead decided to play a little more conservatively and drop 7 into coverage and rush only 4. Unlike when Carr had 6 brought at him and had 2 seconds to throw.

phan1
10-30-2006, 01:06 PM
As a Carr fan and still a Carr supporter (right now at least), it WAS Carr that lost us that game! Turnovers kill, and he coughed it up a bunch of times, one of them for a TD. I know this is a "team game", but to say that means you can't ever single a person out for a loss, which I don't agree with. I don't think you can blame the "team" for a loss when there were some obvious week links like there was Sunday. If there are 2 people that lost us that game, it was 1) Carr and 2) AJ. Actually, AJ could have won us that game, but he didn't. I guess that means he lost the game for us? Hmmmm...

Now that doesn't mean Carr shouldn't start Sunday, but he did lose that game.

phan1
10-30-2006, 01:09 PM
If you had actually payed attention to the Titans defense, you would have noticed that they blitzed Carr, but after gaining a large lead decided to play a little more conservatively and drop 7 into coverage and rush only 4. Unlike when Carr had 6 brought at him and had 2 seconds to throw.

I disagree. There were a lot of times the Titans were successful rushing just 4 and Carr looked like a sitting duck in there. On the other hand, Sage had the pocket presence to move a bit and buy himself a second or two. That is the glaring difference between Carr and Sage. A step here, a step there, that's all the difference in the world. With Sage, you at least get a couple more options. Carr always looks like a sitting duck in the pocket and you just have to pray that he can find someone or get the ball out of his hands before the sack comes. Very Bledsoe-like...

kingh99
10-30-2006, 01:13 PM
If you had actually payed attention to the Titans defense, you would have noticed that they blitzed Carr, but after gaining a large lead decided to play a little more conservatively and drop 7 into coverage and rush only 4. Unlike when Carr had 6 brought at him and had 2 seconds to throw.

That's right. Everyone blitzes him. Why? Because it means he'll settle for 3 yard gains ad inifinitum. As we learned in the years of Run and Shoot, run enough offensive plays to get down the field and something bad will eventually happen.

The only teams that don't blitz are the ones like the Cowboys, because they figured it was time to take advantage of our inflexibility. David Carr is the drill sargeant played by David Schwimmer in Band of Brothers. He's got all the intagibles in practice. He's an inspiration in practice. He's tough as nails in practice. Hell, he will run up do or die hill backwards if that is what it would take to get the guys practicing harder. When the bullets start flying, he's liable to lock up and fall into obvious traps.

infantrycak
10-30-2006, 01:18 PM
Carr was sucking.. he gave the titans the majority of thier points with his two fumbles and the stupid pass for an interception.

Let's let a little reality back into the picture here. I know that is difficult but give it a try.

Carr interception--result punt--no points
Carr fumble #1--result TD run back--7 points for TN
Carr fumble #2--result punt--no points
Sage interception (which was more on AJ)--result TD--7 points for TN

Carr was horrible with protecting the ball but it is completely revisionist to try to attribute the "majority of their points" to him.

Tale Gator
10-30-2006, 01:38 PM
This loss rest solely on Carr's shoulders - this is why he was benched. Sage did his best to rally the Texans, but Kubiak waited to long to get Carr out of the game.

michaelm
10-30-2006, 01:47 PM
PS: I hope Jeff Fisher can sleep tonight knowing he played a scumbag wankster that spits on women just to beat us :crying:

I've been thinking about this, and I feel sorry for Jeff Fisher. You know he had his integrity undermined by Bud, and was forced to put off disciplining Pacman until AFTER this game specifically.
I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that Fisher was told that Jones would play the Texans.
IMO, Jeff Fisher will not be the coach of the tacks long, and I'm happy for him.

infantrycak
10-30-2006, 01:47 PM
This loss rest solely on Carr's shoulders

So 7 of 28 points rest solely on Carr's shoulders so the whole loss does. Truly absurd. Like team wins, this was a team loss. Morlon Greenwood completely blew his assignment giving VY a running TD. Carr coughed a TD fumble. AJ muffed an INT for a TD. Special teams looked special only in that they got off a short yellow bus to give up a TD. Any of those 4 events don't happen and the Texans win. Team loss.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 01:51 PM
Let's let a little reality back into the picture here. I know that is difficult but give it a try.

Carr interception--result punt--no points
Carr fumble #1--result TD run back--7 points for TN
Carr fumble #2--result punt--no points
Sage interception (which was more on AJ)--result TD--7 points for TN

Carr was horrible with protecting the ball but it is completely revisionist to try to attribute the "majority of their points" to him.

Since I am in a Slim Pickin' mood, Carr's interception into quadruple secret coverage could be construed as a -3 or -7 point swing since we had the ball at the 24 yard line. There is no excuse for that throw.

infantrycak
10-30-2006, 01:56 PM
Since I am in a Slim Pickin' mood, Carr's interception into quadruple secret coverage could be construed as a -3 or -7 point swing since we had the ball at the 24 yard line. There is no excuse for that throw.

There was no excuse for that throw but it is factually incorrect to attribute most or more than 25% of the Titans points to Carr's turnovers. They were horrible but they resulted in the same 7 points that Sage/AJ's turnover resulted in. Worse play, same result--that was the solitary point.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 01:57 PM
There was no excuse for that throw but it is factually incorrect to attribute most or more than 25% of the Titans points to Carr's turnovers. They were horrible but they resulted in the same 7 points that Sage/AJ's turnover resulted in. Worse play, same result--that was the solitary point.

Tou-sage. :)

Runner
10-30-2006, 02:00 PM
Since I am in a Slim Pickin' mood, Carr's interception into quadruple secret coverage could be construed as a -3 or -7 point swing since we had the ball at the 24 yard line. There is no excuse for that throw.

Right - what are the odds we score from the 24? It would have been a long field goal after the requisite sack and/or false start. :rolleyes:

michaelm
10-30-2006, 02:00 PM
The coaches need to take real action this time to prove that they think this season is important. Cutting another bit player like Buchanon to "send a message" isn't going to cut it. There were a lot of people that didn't play well. The Texans need to look at some serious moves to the roster or starting line-up. They shouldn't tolerate the penalties and blown assignments. Extra meetings aren't going to fix anything.


I agree with the sentiment, and in a perfect world, this would be feasible.
Unfortunately, on this team, the options are few to none...

Runner
10-30-2006, 02:08 PM
I agree with the sentiment, and in a perfect world, this would be feasible.
Unfortunately, on this team, the options are few to none...

There are still a couple of things we could do. Sit Weigert and start Winston; even if Winston isn't as good, how much worse could he be? Zach was getting Carr killed anyway.

How about cutting Bedell who doesn't dress anyway (not the message part), bringing in a legititmate tackle and bench Salaam (the message part) until he can remember not to leave before the snap. His false starts were drive killing mental errors. He'd also have time to reflect on his poor pass blocking.

It's too bad the coaches have built a roster that does not allow the benching of at least one of the two non-performing tackles. That is bad roster management.

Honoring Earl 34
10-30-2006, 02:12 PM
I'm not sure if its all Carr's fault but he sure set the bar low from the beginning . Its unfortunate but the team follows their QB and after the interception they stunk until Sage took over .

I wonder what goes on now in the lockerroom now ... Carr could have put the VY stuff to rest . Instead he just tossed himself , Mario , McNair , and Kubiak in the grease .

A dog will hunt or he won't . Our dog stays on the porch at the worst times .

2ToneBlue
10-30-2006, 02:16 PM
People are throwing D. Carr under the bus so quickly. He's started off the season well, has one bad game and now everyone is bringout the torches and pitch forks. Granted he should hold onto the ball, but he didn't fumble a snap, they were a 275+lb lineman running into him.

The INT was his fault completely, mental break down.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 02:16 PM
There are still a couple of things we could do. Sit Weigert and start Winston; even if Winston isn't as good, how much worse could he be? Zach was getting Carr killed anyway.

How about cutting Bedell who doesn't dress anyway (not the message part), bringing in a legititmate tackle and bench Salaam (the message part) until he can remember not to leave before the snap. His false starts were drive killing mental errors. He'd also have time to reflect on his poor pass blocking.

It's too bad the coaches have built a roster that does not allow the benching of at least one of the two non-performing tackles. That is bad roster management.

Sure you could continue to play muscial chairs with the OLine or see what a new signal caller will do for the line. I hope he chooses neither against the Giants.

Runner
10-30-2006, 02:25 PM
Sure you could continue to play muscial chairs with the OLine or see what a new signal caller will do for the line. I hope he chooses neither against the Giants.

Continue to play musical chairs or just let horrendous play go without repercussion?

I don't think changes will makes us any worse. Accepting bad play because it's easy has led to complacency in some entrenched starters (IMO).

I can hear the Kubiak pep talk now: Go out and take it to the Giants, Dave. And don't worry, Ephraim's got your back*.


*I shouldn't pick on Ephraim. Zach's man will probably hit Dave and numb him a split second before Ephraim's gets there. Dave probably won't even feel that second hit as the ball flies out of his near lifeless fingers.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 02:32 PM
Continue to play musical chairs or just let horrendous play go without repercussion?

I don't think changes will makes us any worse. Accepting bad play because it's easy has led to complacency in some entrenched starters (IMO).

I can hear the Kubiak pep talk now: Go out and take it to the Giants, Dave. And don't worry, Ephraim's got your back*.


*I shouldn't pick on Ephraim. Zach's man will probably hit Dave and numb him a split second before Ephraim's gets there. Dave probably won't even feel that second hit.

Change the Oline for Carr does nothing but stall for more time for Carr. Putting Sage in does a disservice as well for the "potential" of Carr to come to fruition being on the hot seat. The time is now for Carr to do what Sage did or for his team mates to step up for their maligned face of the franchise and win one for their leader.

real
10-30-2006, 02:33 PM
People are throwing D. Carr under the bus so quickly. He's started off the season well, has one bad game and now everyone is bringout the torches and pitch forks.

ehhh...I think the problem with this "one" bad game, is that David hasn't really wowed us this year...He pretty much has failed to live up to being the #1 pick...I don't think it would be as bad had David been a second or third rounder...He hasn't lived up to what he was billed as, and games like this only make matters worse...

michaelm
10-30-2006, 02:36 PM
There are still a couple of things we could do. Sit Weigert and start Winston; even if Winston isn't as good, how much worse could he be? Zach was getting Carr killed anyway.

How about cutting Bedell who doesn't dress anyway (not the message part), bringing in a legititmate tackle and bench Salaam (the message part) until he can remember not to leave before the snap. His false starts were drive killing mental errors. He'd also have time to reflect on his poor pass blocking.

It's too bad the coaches have built a roster that does not allow the benching of at least one of the two non-performing tackles. That is bad roster management.

Notably absent is any reference to Seth Wand. I'm not sure how I feel on the subject but, in addition to the options you list, he is another.
Unless I missed him signing somewhere...

eriadoc
10-30-2006, 02:37 PM
I do not disagree with your observations, but what is discounted here is how the other 10 players responded (save for AJ) to another signal caller under center.

Agreed. I am just sick to death with the damn o-line being an issue every year. Can we please just build the offensive line (particularly tackle) in the next couple drafts? Everyone wanted Bush or VY this past draft and I was pleading for Ferguson. We got Mario, which at least helps in the trenches, so that's good, but I find myself wanting Ferguson still, even over Spencer.

/rant off

real
10-30-2006, 02:39 PM
Agreed. I am just sick to death with the damn o-line being an issue every year. Can we please just build the offensive line (particularly tackle) in the next couple drafts? /rant off

Why ? So they can have their career sidelined by Dayne the Oline-man killer? :crutch:

Runner
10-30-2006, 02:40 PM
Change the Oline for Carr does nothing but stall for more time for Carr. Putting Sage in does a disservice as well for the "potential" of Carr to come to fruition being on the hot seat. The time is now for Carr to do what Sage did or for his team mates to step up for their maligned face of the franchise and win one for their leader.

I see where we aren't communicating. I didn't say the bolded part and didn't mean to imply it.

Who plays on the o-line and who plays QB are independant decisions for me at this point. Carr is who he is and the line is who they are. Carr isn't an excuse for the line, the line isn't an excuse for Carr - that has been going on for far too long now.

Since our QB and line don't complement each other, I don't worry about their interaction. Put the best player available at QB, put the best player available at each position on the line, and then hold players accountable for their play.

If we don't, we could go on forever like this.

eriadoc
10-30-2006, 02:44 PM
Who plays on the o-line and who plays QB are independant decisions for me. Carr is who he is and the line is who they are. Carr isn't an excuse for the line, the line isn't an excuse for Carr - that has been going on for far too long now.

Since our QB and line don't complement each other, I don't worry about their interaction. Put the best player available at QB, put the best player available at each position on the line, and then hold players accountable for their play.

If we don't, we could go on forever like this.

Ding ding ding! Winner! Thanks for wording this so succinctly. I have no problem with Kubes benching Carr and won't really worry about it if he starts Sage the rest of the year. At the same time, our line's play has been erratic at best, and downright poor for most of the year and about all of the past 4.5 years.

"You must spread rep around, blah blah, blah." I'll get ya later, Runner :)

hollywood_texan
10-30-2006, 02:44 PM
ehhh...I think the problem with this "one" bad game, is that David hasn't really wowed us this year...He pretty much has failed to live up to being the #1 pick...I don't think it would be as bad had David been a second or third rounder...He hasn't lived up to what he was billed as, and games like this only make matters worse...

RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!!! EXCELLENT POST ABOVE!!! GREAT SUMMARY!!!!

David has some decent stats and a high QB rating, but a lot of other average QBs or backups could do the same thing in this system. Ummmm, Rosenfels???

David's biggest problem isn't the mistakes because every player makes them. His problem is that he doesn't make huge plays by himself to show he is worth more to the team in the long-haul or when the game is on the line.

It's okay for QB to lose the game for a team, but he needs to be the biggest reason why the team wins games on a regular basis. Unfortunately, Carr doesn't have THAT or IT.

done88
10-30-2006, 02:51 PM
I guess it was just me but I happened to see 2 of the worst performances in our O-Line's storied history turned in by Salaam and Wiegert. I also happened to see our special teams turn in a rather lackluster showing. Not to mention i've yet to see ANYONE even hint that Peek whiffed on 3 potential tackles off the top of my head, including the one where he had Vince wrapped up in the backfield and Vince shrugged him off and ran it in for a td.

There were many more mistakes but to keep my rant short...by saying Carr had a bad game today would be an understatement, but dont let the Carr haters on this board who have been waiting under their respective bridges keyboard in hand for the opportunity to crucify DC fool you into thinking Carr was the sole reason we lost this game today.

We win as a team and we lose as a team, it is a team game afterall.

PS: I hope Jeff Fisher can sleep tonight knowing he played a scumbag wankster that spits on women just to beat us :crying:


The fact of the matter is with David not a good offense, with Sage an offense that was very good. The other personel were exactly the same.

real
10-30-2006, 02:55 PM
David's biggest problem isn't the mistakes because every player makes them. His problem is that he doesn't make huge plays by himself to show he is worth more to the team in the long-haul or when the game is on the line.


Yeah ...

and i'm not saying we can't win with Carr...I think he is good enough to win in this leauge...But i don't think he will ever prove he was worth a 1st overall...I personally don't think he is good enough for that...I think he is capable of making good to really good plays...But I don't see him as the kind of player that makes amazing plays, and I think that will always be his downfall, and that will always make some fans feel as if Carr isn't good enough...Thats why even when Carr plays well, you always have people saying "yeah but______"....

IMO, if you think Carr has played like he was worthy of the #1 pick you are delusional....but at the same time if you are ready to give up on him, you need to step back and look at the situation...If anything you all that want David to be benched should be tired of the "unknown" factor when it comes to his potential....Just relax, and let him sink, or swim....

Tale Gator
10-30-2006, 03:06 PM
Why did our offensive line suddenly look solid once Sage was in the game?

real
10-30-2006, 03:13 PM
Why did our offensive line suddenly look solid once Sage was in the game?

I didn't get a chance to watch the game, but on the radio this morning they said that Sage gets rid of the ball quicker than Carr...Which means he reads coverages better and knows where to go with the ball pre-snap...

Keldar
10-30-2006, 03:15 PM
Good question, but here is a little quote from an ESPN game report.

Tennessee defensive lineman Kyle Vanden Bosch, who sacked and stripped Carr of the ball just before halftime, said the Titans felt they had Carr rattled after Tony Brown picked up the ball and returned it 40 yards for a touchdown.

"We were back there in the backfield all day today," Vanden Bosch said.

Hmmmm........:confused:

The Pencil Neck
10-30-2006, 03:18 PM
People are throwing D. Carr under the bus so quickly. He's started off the season well, has one bad game and now everyone is bringout the torches and pitch forks. Granted he should hold onto the ball, but he didn't fumble a snap, they were a 275+lb lineman running into him.

The INT was his fault completely, mental break down.

It's a history thing. Some of the people throwing him under the bus have had him down there since day 1. There were several regulars who were wanting Carr cut before that $8 million contract extension and several more wanted him benched prior to the start of regular season. Personally, if benching him will help him develop, then I say bench him.

Kubiak has made excellent improvement in Carr so I'll trust his decision on this.

But it's hard to watch Carr play sometimes. The last coaching staff and all the sacks really damaged his head. Even though Sage doesn't have the same physical tools, he just looks so much more poised in the pocket.

phan1
10-30-2006, 03:28 PM
Hey, the Oline ain't great, but it was GOOD ENOUGH on Sunday. This is the NFL, and you're just not going to have a pretty pocket to throw from every freakin' time. Sage was able to deal with it, and Carr needs to find a way to deal with it or else he's out of a job. It's just not fair to our Oline to expect that. You want to blame those fumbles on our Oline?!? Please, that's ridiculous homer-talk. Carr is the guy with the ball, Carr needs to hold on to it. It's not like he was totally blindsided (like against the Dolphins) either. He saw the rush coming and still couldn't hold on to the football. Inexcusable.

Like I said before, I'm a pro-Carr guy and expect him to respond next week. But lets blame Carr, not that Oline.

hollywood_texan
10-30-2006, 04:21 PM
IMO, if you think Carr has played like he was worthy of the #1 pick you are delusional....but at the same time if you are ready to give up on him, you need to step back and look at the situation...If anything you all that want David to be benched should be tired of the "unknown" factor when it comes to his potential....Just relax, and let him sink, or swim....

I hear ya...

I would like to give Carr the entire part of the year to be the starter regardless of how he does, just to put this thing to rest once and for all. This is the end for Carr as a Texan in my opinion. Carr has such a deep hole to get out of and he has to start that trend out of the hole on the road against the Giants and Jags. If Carr is going to climb out of this, it's probably going to a lot worse before it gets better. Again, I just don't see how he gets out of this. He has had so many chances in his career to really show something special and he hasn't proven he is worth a #1 draft pick like you said. If he was drafted lower and paid less money, maybe his job wouldn't be in jeopardy. But then again, it would be easier to let him go.

The bigger problem is having a very high draft pick next year, top 3 or so. Those guys are too expensive for this team right now and you get locked into a certain position. Basically a top 3 pick pushes your hand. This team needs help in so many areas, so they could find an impact player in the top 3, but then you still have to unload Carr. Those are some big pills to swallow from a financial and cap perspective.

This team needs to be at about the 10th pick this year. Kubiak looks to have done wondefully with last year's draft. If can do the same thing again, Kubiak won't need a high draft pick next year.

real
10-30-2006, 04:43 PM
The bigger problem is having a very high draft pick next year, top 3 or so. Those guys are too expensive for this team right now and you get locked into a certain position. Basically a top 3 pick pushes your hand.

I think if we get a top 3 pick next year we try real hard to trade down...atleast that's what I hope they'd do...

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 06:20 PM
Hey, the Oline ain't great, but it was GOOD ENOUGH on Sunday. This is the NFL, and you're just not going to have a pretty pocket to throw from every freakin' time. Sage was able to deal with it, and Carr needs to find a way to deal with it or else he's out of a job. It's just not fair to our Oline to expect that. You want to blame those fumbles on our Oline?!? Please, that's ridiculous homer-talk. Carr is the guy with the ball, Carr needs to hold on to it. It's not like he was totally blindsided (like against the Dolphins) either. He saw the rush coming and still couldn't hold on to the football. Inexcusable.

Like I said before, I'm a pro-Carr guy and expect him to respond next week. But lets blame Carr, not that Oline.

I love the move. Sit Carr down..... I just wish he didn't tell Carr that he'll be starting come Sunday. I agree that he should start @ NYG, but I'd have let him wonder for a couple of days.

But if you want to talk OL, and what is necessary to play in this league, watch Eli tonight. that OLine is atrocious...... you'll see him make plays with poor protection.

If you had watched the Dallas game last night, or last week, you'd see that just because some QBs need all day to make reads, it's not a necessity in this league, and it shouldn't be.

What we had yesterday was atrocious but a QB taken with the #1 overall should have been able to deal with it.

There are different ways to deal with it. You have the McNabb/Vick approach..... you have the Brady/Farve approach..... then you have the Bulger/Peyton Approach.

Grid
10-30-2006, 06:30 PM
interesting info Infantry.. thanks for pointing it out.

I still feel the same way about Carr though. No matter which way you cut it, in my mind, he lost that game for us.

Texan1
10-30-2006, 06:45 PM
The Carr lovers hype every win like Carr won the game by himself.

The Carr haters hype every loss like Carr is the worst player in the league.

It seems as if there is no middle ground here.



Well, you are wrong becuase I don't like or dislike Carr. I want him to play smart every Sunday b/c he is our starting QB, it is his 5th year, and he has had enough time and coaching (now with Kubes) to become an every week pro.

Carr had some bad blocking granted - but he didn't protect the ball. The fumbles cost us the game - check the score.

Kubes needs to figure out what Carr can do once in for all this season....