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View Full Version : Kubiak: "Carr is our guy.."


Mr.Scarface
10-29-2006, 04:46 PM
Kubiak said after the game that Carr will start against the Giants. The reason Carr was pulled is that Kubiak told him if he lost a fumble in the 3rd quarter, he would pull him.

The Dream
10-29-2006, 04:47 PM
If Carr stinks it up next week, this city will be calling for Kubiak's head.

thetexanator
10-29-2006, 04:48 PM
haha. i think i will buy that bag of ice mr. kubiak.

sincerely,
Eskimos

Wolf
10-29-2006, 04:48 PM
how do you mean stink it up?

by if the Texans lose?

Section 620
10-29-2006, 04:50 PM
I guess there are 8 Million reasonsfor this:brickwall

Grid
10-29-2006, 04:51 PM
I think the only head they will be after is Carr's.

Kubes has shown the willingness to bench Carr, and I dont doubt that Carr will be on a short leash next week. Meaning, if he starts to look anything like he did this week, hes gonna be pulled again (i bet).

NEROtheZERO
10-29-2006, 04:51 PM
If Carr stinks it up next week, this city will be calling for Kubiak's head.

Aside from the fumbles Carr looked good today and I don't know that the fumbles were necessarily Carr's fault. I don't disagree with playing Sage today, Kubiak wanted to play better in our worse quarter and set an example by pulling Carr. But Carr is extremely talented and deserves to be our starter.

Bongo59
10-29-2006, 04:52 PM
I agree...............playing this bad against VY is going to hurt Carr locally I think.

afcman
10-29-2006, 04:52 PM
Wow....I'm a little shocked.

But after a LITTLE thought.....I think this might be DC's last chance.

(I would have gone with Sage for now though)

MrMeToo
10-29-2006, 04:53 PM
Aside from the fumbles Carr looked good today and I don't know that the fumbles were necessarily Carr's fault. I don't disagree with playing Sage today, Kubiak wanted to play better in our worse quarter and set an example by pulling Carr. But Carr is extremely talented and deserves to be our starter.

What about the INT to triple coverage? Or the tipped passes. Or the passes to the ground? Or what about not getting the #1 receiver in the AFC involved in the 1st half? Sage>Carr.

belars44
10-29-2006, 04:54 PM
I think the only head they will be after is Carr's.

Kubes has shown the willingness to bench Carr, and I dont doubt that Carr will be on a short leash next week. Meaning, if he starts to look anything like he did this week, hes gonna be pulled again (i bet).

Coming from one of the biggest Carr apologists on the board, it must mean something since he is such a "pro" on these boards. I said Carr was done 2 weeks ago, he got a grace in the Jacksonville game, his true colors showed today, especially on the sidelines with his pouting shoulder pad holding crybaby attitude. Someone other than Carr must start in order for this organization to start anew. More Carr apologists will be coming out of the woodwork this week saying the same thing. The only addendum is that they will "claim" they really knew that all along.

Hookem Horns
10-29-2006, 04:54 PM
The happiest ones concerning this decision has to be Strahan and company. The Texans are already 2-6 after this announcement.

NEROtheZERO
10-29-2006, 04:57 PM
What about the INT to triple coverage? Or the tipped passes. Or the passes to the ground? Or what about not getting the #1 receiver in the AFC involved in the 1st half? Sage>Carr.

The INT was a bad decision, I give you that. Otherwise he completed 71% of his passes, you have to take that kind of efficiency.

New_Texans
10-29-2006, 05:01 PM
What about the INT to triple coverage? Or the tipped passes. Or the passes to the ground? Or what about not getting the #1 receiver in the AFC involved in the 1st half? Sage>Carr.

Carr did suck today but Sage is not better than him. Remember, Carr is still having a good season he just needs to stop the games were he is horrible.


Btw, Wiegert was horrible today. I heard Vanden Bosh's name (the guy wiegert was suppose to be gaurding) each time Carr or Sage dropped back to pass. Carr was holding onto the ball but heck the line use to be able to block well Wiegert anyway.

Carr was trash today but Hes still the starter.

Grid
10-29-2006, 05:02 PM
Coming from one of the biggest Carr apologists on the board, it must mean something since he is such a "pro" on these boards. I said Carr was done 2 weeks ago, he got a grace in the Jacksonville game, his true colors showed today, especially on the sidelines with his pouting shoulder pad holding crybaby attitude. Someone other than Carr must start in order for this organization to start anew. More Carr apologists will be coming out of the woodwork this week saying the same thing. The only addendum is that they will "claim" they really knew that all along.

Hah, one of the biggest Carr apologists? Ive always said that he needs to be given a fair shake. Meaning.. he needed more time to see what he could do in an offense that WASNT run by morons.

That isnt being a "Carr apologist".. that is making sure you know what you have before you throw it in the trash. If everyone had sucked today, id be blaming it on overall performance. Fact of the matter is that Carr was the only weak link and he lost this game for us single handedly.

So now I cant say "lets see how he does in a working offense" cause ive seen it now.. and he looked great.. but that kind of inconsistency is going to set this team back a long way. We need someone out there that is dependable.. otherwise he is gonna slow down our progress.

So, no..im not a Carr apologist. I support smart decisions. Keeping Carr and seeing what we had was the smart decision. Im less sure about this decision to continue starting Carr, but ill support Kubiak in this, seeing as he knows 1000x more than I do about this kind of thing.

Bronco Texan
10-29-2006, 05:02 PM
This will be bad for Carr. He will be going up against the best D in the league at going after the QB. Carr needs to find a way to get his Oline to protect him better. I'm sad to say this will probably be Carr's last game. Carr will get sack several times and probably fumble a few. Then Sage will come in, Houston fans will cheer. Then Sage will get killed just like Carr. I don't think this will be win situation for either QB, or the team.

Porky
10-29-2006, 05:10 PM
Okay, let me be the first to call Kubiak into question. His play calling and time management today were absoueltely atrocious. What the hell is Dayne running draws for with 3 minutes to go. Why is Dayne even active. That guy is one yard and a cloud of fat. The drive at the end of the half was terribly called, and executed worse. What was he thinking. Make up your mind Kubes. Either sit on the damn thing, or actually show some confidence and try to score. He was like a guy driving to a fork in the road, and taking it. Kubiak was out to lunch on that drive AGAIN. That's the second time this year. And, now he claims Carr as the starter, when it's clear to all but Carr and his immediate relatives that Carr is absoulute garbage as a starting NFL QB. His QB rating proves that statistic is worthless.

JDizzle
10-29-2006, 05:20 PM
The happiest ones concerning this decision has to be Strahan and company. The Texans are already 2-6 after this announcement.

Good lord, I don't even want to know. I'll buy my beer Saturday night so I can start drinking early.

FirstTexansFan
10-29-2006, 05:22 PM
That guy is one yard and a cloud of fat.

My vote for best line of the year, and my new signature, thanks :)

texaslifter
10-29-2006, 05:42 PM
If Carr stinks it up next week, this city will be calling for Kubiak's head.

Would you quit going around to EVERY thread posting negative crap? Yes, we see there is a problem, and yes its going to be fixed. This team is moving in the right direction, STILL, even after this loss.

tsip
10-29-2006, 05:42 PM
The INT was a bad decision, I give you that. Otherwise he completed 71% of his passes, you have to take that kind of efficiency.

Carr's YPA was a little over 5/1 interception/1 fumble/0 TDs--"have to accept that."

We have and that is why we've lost over 50 games in 4+ years with Carr...he's still the 'man.'

texaslifter
10-29-2006, 05:47 PM
Carr's YPA was a little over 5/1 interception/1 fumble/0 TDs--"have to accept that."

We have and that is why we've lost over 50 games in 4+ years with Carr...he's still the 'man.'

Great stats, unfortunately in the middle of all that you're tying things in that are not Carr's fault - like wins in a game. A top 10 defense, a top 10 o-line, a top 10 running game... any of these things would make his job a million times easier.

belars44
10-29-2006, 05:49 PM
Would you quit going around to EVERY thread posting negative crap? Yes, we see there is a problem, and yes its going to be fixed. This team is moving in the right direction, STILL, even after this loss.

Gary? Did you grace us with your presence?

thunderkyss
10-29-2006, 05:51 PM
I think the only head they will be after is Carr's.

Kubes has shown the willingness to bench Carr, and I dont doubt that Carr will be on a short leash next week. Meaning, if he starts to look anything like he did this week, hes gonna be pulled again (i bet).

We've all seen how Carr responds when he is the man no matter what. Now we get to see how he reacts when he might be looking for a job.

I sooo hope that he doesn't "play it safe" from here on out. I hope he understands he got benched for losing the ball, and not for throwing downfield giving our guys a chance to make a play.

This offense works so much better when the ball is spread around.

thunderkyss
10-29-2006, 05:53 PM
Great stats, unfortunately in the middle of all that you're tying things in that are not Carr's fault - like wins in a game. A top 10 defense, a top 10 o-line, a top 10 running game... any of these things would make his job a million times easier.

I'm not bagging on Carr, but I'm hoping one day he'll be the guy that makes it easier for the rest of our team. Instead of the guy that's got it made...

texaslifter
10-29-2006, 05:55 PM
Would you quit going around to EVERY thread posting negative crap? Yes, we see there is a problem, and yes its going to be fixed. This team is moving in the right direction, STILL, even after this loss.

Gary? Did you grace us with your presence?

Congratulations on screwing up a simple thing like clicking a quote button - clearly your cleverness is top notch.

Anyways, yes. You see a loss. I see improved LB play, improved CB play, marginally improved S play. D line was making pressure too. They weren't marching down the field on us, like they did against a Washington D. If you can't see that this team is flirting with being a good team.... well whatever, I don't care if you can see it.

texaslifter
10-29-2006, 05:57 PM
I'm not bagging on Carr, but I'm hoping one day he'll be the guy that makes it easier for the rest of our team. Instead of the guy that's got it made...

He has been that guy ALL season before this game. David Carr was quietly having a REALLY solid season. If you are holding your breath for another Peyton Manning you have another thing coming.

All this said, I'm not even a staunch Carr supporter - I'm just so sick of seeing the knee jerk reactions and blame game that gets played on this forum instead of positive insight as to how we are progressing. We're supposed to be fans, not the ultimate haters.

blockhead83
10-29-2006, 06:00 PM
Anyone who's followed my posts since the Texans' inception knows that I've backed Carr and his position as this team's long term QB. After today I honestly think we'd be a more competitive football team for the remainder of the season with Sage at the helm. Rosenfels showed his ability to make plays, avoid pressure and buy time in the pocket, and attack the middle of the field. Those are three things that Carr has not been able to consistently do during his time in the NFL. Carr's not supposed to have this type of game this often at this point in his career. I think he can be an average quarterback in this league, but we need someone who is going to make things happen and he's not getting it done right now.

thunderkyss
10-29-2006, 06:09 PM
Okay, let me be the first to call Kubiak into question. His play calling and time management today were absoueltely atrocious. What the hell is Dayne running draws for with 3 minutes to go. Why is Dayne even active. That guy is one yard and a cloud of fat. The drive at the end of the half was terribly called, and executed worse. What was he thinking. Make up your mind Kubes. Either sit on the damn thing, or actually show some confidence and try to score. He was like a guy driving to a fork in the road, and taking it. Kubiak was out to lunch on that drive AGAIN. That's the second time this year. And, now he claims Carr as the starter, when it's clear to all but Carr and his immediate relatives that Carr is absoulute garbage as a starting NFL QB. His QB rating proves that statistic is worthless.

Dayne is in their for pass protection. You have to give him the ball every now and again so the Defense doesn't know what we are going to do.

tsip
10-29-2006, 06:15 PM
Great stats, unfortunately in the middle of all that you're tying things in that are not Carr's fault - like wins in a game. A top 10 defense, a top 10 o-line, a top 10 running game... any of these things would make his job a million times easier.


...excuses noted and put in Carr's "It's not fair to me" file...and no monies will be removed from his $50 million dollar "I wil...someday...earn..." money chest.

thunderkyss
10-29-2006, 06:16 PM
He has been that guy ALL season before this game. David Carr was quietly having a REALLY solid season. If you are holding your breath for another Peyton Manning you have another thing coming.

All this said, I'm not even a staunch Carr supporter - I'm just so sick of seeing the knee jerk reactions and blame game that gets played on this forum instead of positive insight as to how we are progressing. We're supposed to be fans, not the ultimate haters.

First, I'm not knee-jerk. I've been saying the same thing all year. I'm not blaming him for this loss, or any of our other losses, & I see this as part of his progression. I never doubted that he'll start next week.

But he hasn't played any worse this game than he has all season. his 71% completion ratio is still intact, and had he played into the 4th Qtr & got a couple of touchdowns, his rating would be just as high as it's been all year.

I haven't been harping on all his flaws, because I have hope that they will be fixed.

But our recievers, and our defense (yes, our defense) has been carrying this team.

tsip
10-29-2006, 06:21 PM
"But he hasn't played any worse this game than he has all season. his 71% completion ratio is still intact, and had he played into the 4th Qtr & got a couple of touchdowns, his rating would be just as high as it's been all year."

OK, TK, I think I got it. Like Dallas, we didn't really lose this game because the a) fumble for a TD and the b) punt return for a TD do not count , so--in your mind--we really won 22-14...have I done good?:redtowel:

run-david-run
10-29-2006, 06:24 PM
Geez, he completes 15 of 21 with one bad throw. Before the fumble to end the half, it was just a couple of mistakes as a team that cost us. Both fumbles came pretty much when he was at the top of his drop, meaning the tackles both smoked both times, he never had a chance. However, sacks and fumbles tend to snow-ball with Carr and I think the decision to pull him was the right one. But we cant turn our back on him for one bad game when you look at the season he put together previously. Give him a chance to prove himself again next week.

TERROR DOME
10-29-2006, 06:25 PM
Carr did suck today but Sage is not better than him. Remember, Carr is still having a good season he just needs to stop the games were he is horrible.


Btw, Wiegert was horrible today. I heard Vanden Bosh's name (the guy wiegert was suppose to be gaurding) each time Carr or Sage dropped back to pass. Carr was holding onto the ball but heck the line use to be able to block well Wiegert anyway.

Carr was trash today but Hes still the starter.

Everybody wants to say Sage is not better, Please let his on field play determine who is better. Every since preseason Sage has showed a poise in the pocket that David just does not have. David can not sense when pressure is coming from the back side a good QB can. The Titans were playing the same defense on Sage that they played on David, and Sage did not take a sack, same Offensive line. I say give Sage a chance to start a game with the starting offense and let's see what happens. Maybe I'm wrong, but i doubt it.

gwallaia
10-29-2006, 06:27 PM
As long as our offensive line sucks, our quarterbacks will suck.

thunderkyss
10-29-2006, 06:28 PM
"But he hasn't played any worse this game than he has all season. his 71% completion ratio is still intact, and had he played into the 4th Qtr & got a couple of touchdowns, his rating would be just as high as it's been all year."

OK, TK, I think I got it. Like Dallas, we didn't really lose this game because the a) fumble for a TD and the b) punt return for a TD do not count , so--in your mind--we really won 22-14...have I done good?:redtowel:

We don't take that stance 'till Wednesday, when we are preparing for our next opponent.


What I am saying, is that no one wanted to talk about Carr's inability to get the ball down the field against Philly, his fumbles against Indy, Washington, at the end of the Miami game all he had to do was take a knee..... he stumbled and tripped on his own two feet...... twice, Dallas was because we didn't have a running game, and against Jax..... he got away with staring down his recievers all day long.

Carr hasn't been throwing the ball in the dirt, that was new today, but that wasn't why he was benched.

thunderkyss
10-29-2006, 06:30 PM
Geez, he completes 15 of 21 with one bad throw. Before the fumble to end the half, it was just a couple of mistakes as a team that cost us. Both fumbles came pretty much when he was at the top of his drop, meaning the tackles both smoked both times, he never had a chance. However, sacks and fumbles tend to snow-ball with Carr and I think the decision to pull him was the right one. But we cant turn our back on him for one bad game when you look at the season he put together previously. Give him a chance to prove himself again next week.

I agree for the most part, but please..... we don't need Carr to prove himself... we know what he's got.

We need to let Kubiak continue to bring him along.

Porky
10-29-2006, 06:31 PM
As long as our offensive line sucks, our quarterbacks will suck.

Ehhh, what do you know. You're getting smoked by some flying pig team in your fantasy league. :whip:

GuerillaBlack
10-29-2006, 06:34 PM
Anyways, yes. You see a loss. I see improved LB play, improved CB play, marginally improved S play. D line was making pressure too. They weren't marching down the field on us, like they did against a Washington D. If you can't see that this team is flirting with being a good team.... well whatever, I don't care if you can see it.

Look I see it. If we didn't have those ******* turnovers, we would have one. If that guy (forgot his name) didn't return that fumble for a TD at the end of the 2nd, we would have won. A serious bad play by guy, he should have just fell, our ran with it. Then, we could have ran down the clock for halftime. The Titans can celebrate this victory, but we were the better team overall. Again, turnovers just killed us.

Texanfan4ever
10-29-2006, 06:35 PM
Simply amazing! How about sticking with how you really feel instead of bouncing back and forth every week depending on the outcome of the game. Show some stability. This is getting really tiring. It actually makes me sick.

GuerillaBlack
10-29-2006, 06:39 PM
Say we bench Carr for the season, what will we do with him in the offseason? Carr cost us some money. I don't think anyone would trade for him. Maybe the 49ers.

gwallaia
10-29-2006, 06:40 PM
Ehhh, what do you know. You're getting smoked by some flying pig team in your fantasy league. :whip:

No kidding. I never had a chance with Larry Johnson's performance today.

K.D.
10-29-2006, 06:43 PM
Carr surely had a bad game today and I really understand the benching Kubiak went with. We needed a lift from someone on the offense side. Kubiak know's Carr real well and knew that his turnovers are going to snowball him for the resr of the game. Carr has to understand that he has to protect the ball better no matter what.

NFLforher
10-29-2006, 07:13 PM
Coming from one of the biggest Carr apologists on the board, it must mean something since he is such a "pro" on these boards. I said Carr was done 2 weeks ago, he got a grace in the Jacksonville game, his true colors showed today, especially on the sidelines with his pouting shoulder pad holding crybaby attitude. Someone other than Carr must start in order for this organization to start anew. More Carr apologists will be coming out of the woodwork this week saying the same thing. The only addendum is that they will "claim" they really knew that all along.


Geez. Carr was pulled today with good reason. He sat on the sidelines. There was no pouting.

The Pencil Neck
10-29-2006, 07:24 PM
No kidding. I never had a chance with Larry Johnson's performance today.

Personally, making Owen Daniels my starting TE is starting to look like Genius.

(Having LaDanian helps a lot, too.)

Wharton
10-29-2006, 07:25 PM
Geez. Carr was pulled today with good reason. He sat on the sidelines. There was no pouting.Looked pretty pouty to me, too.

It'll be interesting to see how he rebounds from this.

Johnny Utah
10-29-2006, 07:32 PM
Simply amazing! How about sticking with how you really feel instead of bouncing back and forth every week depending on the outcome of the game. Show some stability. This is getting really tiring. It actually makes me sick.

Showing stability in Carr has led the Texans to a 20-51 career record.

mexican_texan
10-29-2006, 07:38 PM
As long as our offensive line sucks, our quarterbacks will suck.
Sage moved around the rush much better.

Hookem Horns
10-29-2006, 07:42 PM
Sage moved around the rush much better.

He also was able to pull off completions that were longer than 2 yards.

PoolMaster21
10-29-2006, 07:44 PM
Why is Dayne even active. That guy is one yard and a cloud of fat.

:rofl:

PoolMaster21
10-29-2006, 07:48 PM
I think the benching was aimed at the rest of the team as much as at DC. Kubiak has gotten in front of the press and claimed responsibility for coaching problems - now he's declaring that any player that fails to perform to his standards will be held accountable.

I also agree with the posters who say that DC was a little too quick to blame others in the past - Kubiak sent the message "DC: you screw up and you sit." Maybe a swift kick in the a** will wake Carr up.

SBTexans08
10-29-2006, 07:50 PM
Maybe a swift kick in the a** will wake Carr up.

It had better....cause Texans fans are pissed and with the benching....he's on the hot seat.

tex
10-29-2006, 07:59 PM
I have never heard DC put the blame on anyone but himself.

CaptainPatriot
10-29-2006, 08:06 PM
Aside from the fumbles Carr looked good today and I don't know that the fumbles were necessarily Carr's fault. I don't disagree with playing Sage today, Kubiak wanted to play better in our worse quarter and set an example by pulling Carr. But Carr is extremely talented and deserves to be our starter.

Did you forget he throw up a pass for grabs into triple coverage for a INT? Carr always fumbles or INT when the pressure is on! Lets be honest DC doesn't protect the ball when under pressure when the game is on the line!

SBTexans08
10-29-2006, 08:06 PM
I have never heard DC put the blame on anyone but himself.

he's put the blame on the O-line before and does it during games as well. But when he screws up....

Wolf
10-29-2006, 08:11 PM
he's put the blame on the O-line before and does it during games as well. But when he screws up....

geeze I wish people would quit making stuff up and read newspapers

gwallaia
10-29-2006, 08:19 PM
Aside from the fumbles Carr looked good today.....

Besides that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

edo783
10-29-2006, 08:19 PM
he's put the blame on the O-line before and does it during games as well. But when he screws up....

You sure pulled that out of some dark place. But if you care to provide a print link to where he blamed his line or have a video of him blaming his team mates, I'm pretty sure we would all like to see them.

Maddict5
10-29-2006, 08:19 PM
[QUOTE=belars44;483239]

Congratulations on screwing up a simple thing like clicking a quote button - clearly your cleverness is top notch.

Anyways, yes. You see a loss. I see improved LB play, improved CB play, marginally improved S play. D line was making pressure too. They weren't marching down the field on us, like they did against a Washington D. If you can't see that this team is flirting with being a good team.... well whatever, I don't care if you can see it.

lmao

Second Honeymoon
10-29-2006, 08:20 PM
The benching of Carr was a panic move by Kubiak. I would expect better from him. I don't believe the BS schtick about doing it to Steve Young back in the day. I have been a huge critic of Carr over the years but I don't think he deserved to be benched after the 2nd half began. The offensive line had easily their worst performance of the year. Carr has looked good when given time, he didn't get the time needed today.

Carr wasn't without fault today. Carr's biggest problem was holding onto the ball too long. That fact along with his season-long affliction of fumbilitis did not make for a good combination. I just think Kubiak went into Panic Mode and I think it was a bad move especially on Carr's first game against VY and the former Oilers. If it was to send a message to Carr, I would hope that message was sent in the offseason and preseason and wouldn't need repeating....obviously Kubiak thought it did.

On a positive side, Sage looked very fluid, in control, and capable of putting the Texans in a position to win football games. If Kubiak does decide to go with Rosenfels at some point down the road, at least we won't be totally nerfed as a team.

I am not in ANY WAY endorsing a trade of Carr, but would you be willing to take an early 2nd rounder for him? Like the Raiders, Dolphins, or Packer's 2nd round pick? I feel Carr would be an upgrade at QB for at least 8 teams (Dallas comes to mind :) )so it would be interesting if we could get anything for him if things don't work out.

*Drinks Beer* here is to hoping we don't even have to worry about that. Carr is the starter next week and barring a similar performance to this week, he should finish the game as starting QB.

Oh, BTW some of the blindly hating trolls who have been claiming VY would be a scrub QB in the NFL, finally got an upclose and personal look at VY at the helm. In just his rookie season, he already displays veteran poise, good arm, and the ability to make the big play. That scramble was legendary and Dunta bounced off him like a fly. You can say what you want about the guy, but dude wins football games. He is a winner, thru and thru. VY also impressed me with his accuracy and ease in the pocket. I sure hope we made the right choice in passing on him, but I think VY made a strong case for his selection today. He is 2-2 as a starter as well as almost beating Peyton in his first try (on the road no less). That is something Carr has not done in 9 attempts.

Go Texans

Doug From The Woodlands

Mr teX
10-29-2006, 08:21 PM
Showing stability in Carr has led the Texans to a 20-51 career record.

You make it sound like we were 1-2 wins from the Superbowl. Hey news flash ..........................we suck & Qb has always been the least of our problems from year 1 to now.

JDizzle
10-29-2006, 08:22 PM
Benching Kubiak was a panic move by Kubiak.
Kubiak benched himself? LOL.

And if it was a panic move, then I am a fan of panic. Sage came pretty close to winning the game.

tex
10-29-2006, 08:23 PM
he's put the blame on the O-line before and does it during games as well.

Were you on the sidelines when he said this?

Maddict5
10-29-2006, 08:24 PM
i dont know is this the right thread but why doesnt kubiak give carr 3 or 4 wr plays like he gave to sage...btw im not bothered who starts once they get the job done.. but i dont see why carr has mostly 2 te sets all the time etc

SBTexans08
10-29-2006, 08:27 PM
Were you on the sidelines when he said this?

hahaha...do you think he's going to come right out and say it?

"It isn't my fault...it's those lineman's fault!". He's not going to say it like that...but, he's said something along the lines of, "Protection was a bit of a question mark...".

During the games....he claps his hands after the guys screw up on the field, shouting how they need to pick up the slack... However...when he screws up? What's he do? He just walks off the field confused.

With what Sage did in there today, and what he's done during pre-season....I really question whether the line's to blame or Carr. Carr's pocket presence compared to Sage's really leans me toward putting the blame on Carr.

Texan1
10-29-2006, 08:27 PM
Kubiak said after the game that Carr will start against the Giants. The reason Carr was pulled is that Kubiak told him if he lost a fumble in the 3rd quarter, he would pull him.

I'm surprised he said that. Carr wasn't getting good backside protection from Salaam, but he has to take care of the football - no matter what. I can point to porr blocking for those sacks - but Carr's to blame for the fumbles.

Sage moved around much better than Carr - looked more comfortable in the pocket. Also, the team seemed to rally around Sage.

Hopefully this will make Carr wake up and realize his play contributes to the overall poor play on offense - as I feel like he used to think it was all the O line's fault.

thunderkyss
10-29-2006, 08:31 PM
i dont know is this the right thread but why doesnt kubiak give carr 3 or 4 wr plays like he gave to sage...btw im not bothered who starts once they get the job done.. but i dont see why carr has mostly 2 te sets all the time etc

That's because Sage doesn't need the extra protection. to get 4 WRs for Carr, they motion the Tailback out of the backfield....... but never throw to him.

Maddict5
10-29-2006, 09:00 PM
That's because Sage doesn't need the extra protection. to get 4 WRs for Carr, they motion the Tailback out of the backfield....... but never throw to him.

hmmm its not like we have mike vick and drew bledsoe- carr is decent at dumping it off before he gets hit (not today) but i think we should try it and see how it goes

Rightnow
10-29-2006, 09:06 PM
Naming Carr as the starter next week was the first move that Kubiak as made that I don't agree with. Sage earned as starter role until he blows it. Carr has had two terrible games this year, today and Dallas.

Every QB has terrible games sometimes, but the mistakes that Carr made were some of the same problems he's had since day one: holding on the ball too long, no poise in the pocket, fumbling and not reading the defense.

SBTexans08
10-29-2006, 09:09 PM
Every QB has terrible games sometimes, but the mistakes that Carr made were some of the same problems he's had since day one: holding on the ball too long, no poise in the pocket, fumbling and not reading the defense.

Man...I think I'm going to have to put that in my sig. Thank you!!

tex
10-29-2006, 09:30 PM
. Carr's pocket presence compared to Sage's really leans me toward putting the blame on Carr.

I agree with you on that part.I also believe every qb has a bad day like DC had today.

tex
10-29-2006, 09:35 PM
The fumbles happen when his hand was already in motion you can't pull the ball back in at that time.

CaptainPatriot
10-29-2006, 09:37 PM
Kubiak said after the game that Carr will start against the Giants. The reason Carr was pulled is that Kubiak told him if he lost a fumble in the 3rd quarter, he would pull him.


......and by Tuesday DC will be on a jet to Oakland for a 2007 1st and 3rd round picks :redtowel:

Second Honeymoon
10-29-2006, 09:38 PM
After last week's performance by Carr, I felt he should have had a longer leash this Sunday. To bench him after a few turnovers is a bit harsh to do to your franchise QB. If Kubes no longer views Carr as a franchise QB, then Kubiak's first and second mistake were picking up the option on Carr and passing on VY in the draft....I don't blame Carr for signing the deal, I blame Kubiak and Co. for keeping him.

Carr has not been the problem this year. If anything, he has been a solution.

--St.Louis Cardinals 2006 MLB World Champions--

NJTexanFan
10-29-2006, 09:38 PM
HAHA i knew there would be a thread like this, but in my opinion the offensive line was horrible i mean i seen carr do a 3 step drop n was still getting hit that was horrible and he got blind sided on that fumble, i mean did any actually see how Salaam was playing horrible he was getting beat almost every play even Weigert was playing badly i mean Van Bosch or howeva you spell his name had 2 sacks would of have 4 had not 2 of them been cancelled horrible play from the offensive line but still no excuse for Carr and all those damn fumbles, and throwing it to where 3 defenders were at was one of the dumbest plays i've seen...but then again if we lost this game because he did nothing but dump offs everyone here would be pretty mad so i don't know what you want from the guy , if anyone has tivo or recorded the game look at how much better the protection was for Rosenfel than for Carr you'll be suprised

michaelm
10-29-2006, 09:41 PM
My vote for best line of the year, and my new signature, thanks :)


You may want to rethink your syntax... it looks like you might be describing Porky the way it's written now...

CaptainPatriot
10-29-2006, 09:41 PM
Carr did suck today but Sage is not better than him. Remember, Carr is still having a good season he just needs to stop the games were he is horrible.


Btw, Wiegert was horrible today. I heard Vanden Bosh's name (the guy wiegert was suppose to be gaurding) each time Carr or Sage dropped back to pass. Carr was holding onto the ball but heck the line use to be able to block well Wiegert anyway.

Carr was trash today but Hes still the starter.

Humm didn't hear Vanden Bosh's name when Sage was in there?:hmmm:

Second Honeymoon
10-29-2006, 09:43 PM
......and by Tuesday DC will be on a jet to Oakland for a 2007 1st and 3rd round picks :redtowel:

If DC could yield a 1st and 3rd from the Raiders, I would pull the trigger on that, but I think that is a pipe dream. Carr's performance and stats this year have helped his value but he is still viewed as a 'work in progress' to this day around the NFL. Those draft picks could go a long way to fixing our problems in the secondary and OL/DL.

tex
10-29-2006, 09:45 PM
I already said it looked like the Oline played better when Sage was in and got told I was wrong he is just a better qb.

NJTexanFan
10-29-2006, 09:50 PM
hmmm i'm starting to wonder are you people for Carr being benched were saying the same thing when Carr got hurt and Tony Banks won a couple of games for us? I wonder LOL benching Carr is so farfetched

CaptainPatriot
10-29-2006, 09:51 PM
If DC could yield a 1st and 3rd from the Raiders, I would pull the trigger on that, but I think that is a pipe dream. Carr's performance and stats this year have helped his value but he is still viewed as a 'work in progress' to this day around the NFL. Those draft picks could go a long way to fixing our problems in the secondary and OL/DL.

My thoughts exactly. DC needs a new start somewhere else. It would be good for both DC and for Texans. I'm old school and I rememebr Plunkett at NE. DC reminds me of him shell shocked! After being sacked so many times early in his career. See what happen to Plunkett later in his career. Texans can get a S and DL with those picks! DC is still better than what oakland has.

Heath Shuler
10-29-2006, 10:47 PM
Aside from the fumbles Carr looked good today and I don't know that the fumbles were necessarily Carr's fault. I don't disagree with playing Sage today, Kubiak wanted to play better in our worse quarter and set an example by pulling Carr. But Carr is extremely talented and deserves to be our starter.

Is this a joke?

Marcus
10-29-2006, 10:56 PM
......and by Tuesday DC will be on a jet to Oakland for a 2007 1st and 3rd round picks :redtowel:
lol: :pigfly: Throw out the 1st round pick, and you have a realistic trade.

Wharton
10-29-2006, 11:05 PM
......and by Tuesday DC will be on a jet to Oakland for a 2007 1st and 3rd round picks :redtowel:Yeah, send DC to Oakland, we owe them one for sending us PBuc

:chicken:

Texanfan4ever
10-29-2006, 11:10 PM
he's put the blame on the O-line before and does it during games as well. But when he screws up....


Okay, you are nuts. DC doesn't blame anyone for anything. Back it up with some facts. I want to see some proof of that. Of all the things you could try to blame him for, that is definitely not one of them.

Texanfan4ever
10-29-2006, 11:11 PM
Is this a joke?

No, you are.

SBTexans08
10-29-2006, 11:16 PM
Okay, you are nuts. DC doesn't blame anyone for anything. Back it up with some facts. I want to see some proof of that. Of all the things you could try to blame him for, that is definitely not one of them.

No, you're a joke! You think I'm saying he attributes the fault to the O-line every game? That's not what I said. He's done it in the past....one time of which I remember. I read it in the paper, didn't hear it on the radio nor saw his comment on T.V. To find the article would be like finding a needle in a hay stack. You kidding me? A link?

NFLforher
10-29-2006, 11:38 PM
Looked pretty pouty to me, too.

It'll be interesting to see how he rebounds from this.

Well, it's very likely you didn't see it all. It was reported that David was the first guy to offer Sage congrats after his touchdown.

David23
10-30-2006, 12:11 AM
I've also never heard or read that DC places the blame on the o-line, but someone needs to get after the line because they can't seem to string together consistent protection from game to game.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 08:16 AM
This is the process. He's not going to shut the guy down after the first time benched. Carr is going to play better or sit. The fans will be heard now. Rosenfelds could not have done a better job. David Carr has little hands and no heart. He won't stand in the pocket. Vince Young busted his hand on the helmet of a defender as he threw the ball. He didn't care about the fact he might hurt his thumb. He was focused on making the throw. He has heart. Carr has limited heart and smarts. He would be the perfect 24/7 scripted QB. If there is a situation that requires "guile" he's ****ed.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 08:21 AM
Carr blows. Always has always will. It's only a matter of time before this bum is sent to the bench for good. This benefits the team greatly.

Bum? Everyone loves David Carr like everyone loves Douglas Neidermeyer. Actually I worry for David. His psyche seems like it would bruise easily.

texan_fan_8
10-30-2006, 08:37 AM
Every since preseason Sage has showed a poise in the pocket that David just does not have. David can not sense when pressure is coming from the back side a good QB can.

Amen, Amen Amen. You forgot one other thing though he can't read the defense well. He runs plays regardless of what the defense of the other team is doing. If there is 4 people around AJ, the play is to be run to AJ and we dont change that and look for other receivers.

The preseason had so much promise but it was because the team looked so good but in reality it was because Sage looked so well. I am convinced this team will not win consistantly until david is gone retired or something. He just doesn't know how to lead. The talent is there but i think he's ruined and lacks confidence and that shows itself in so many aspects of this team.

HJam72
10-30-2006, 08:40 AM
Amen, Amen Amen. You forgot one other thing though he can't read the defense well. He runs plays regardless of what the defense of the other team is doing. If there is 4 people around AJ, the play is to be run to AJ and we dont change that and look for other receivers.

The preseason had so much promise but it was because the team looked so good but in reality it was because Sage looked so well. I am convinced this team will not win consistantly until david is gone retired or something. He just doesn't know how to lead. The talent is there but i think he's ruined and lacks confidence and that shows itself in so many aspects of this team.

I really wish people would stop using that leadership argument. Maybe you Carr haters (for lack of a better phrase) are right about his pocket presence, stairing down receivers, not seeing the whole field, etc., but that leadership stuff is straw man material, as the antireligious people would say.

jmlockett
10-30-2006, 08:48 AM
Ok here is my two cents for whats its worth.

I know from my experience in managing sales teams that sometimes you have to get a person's attention, before you get drastic. I believe that this is step one in trying to get DC to come around. ie: let him know that this is for real and his head could be on the block. Maybe the guy has had a false sense of job sercurity? I am not getting on any bandwagon for or against keeping him I am just thankful that our Coach has the brass nads to make a statement like he did. I will say that sage looked a lot better and seemed to have a better grasp of the situation. Although, 1.5 quarters is hardly enough time to really give him a fair sumation. I hope for our teams sake that DC gets his head out of his butt and plays like he was picked to, and our coach will not hesitate in switching QBs in a heartbeat if DC starts screwing up.

texan_fan_8
10-30-2006, 08:49 AM
I have never heard DC put the blame on anyone but himself.

Then you havent' been listening.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 08:52 AM
Ok here is my two cents for whats its worth.

I know from my experience in managing sales teams that sometimes you have to get a person's attention, before you get drastic. I believe that this is step one in trying to get DC to come around. ie: let him know that this is for real and his head could be on the block. Maybe the guy has had a false sense of job sercurity? I am not getting on any bandwagon for or against keeping him I am just thankful that our Coach has the brass nads to make a statement like he did. I will say that sage looked a lot better and seemed to have a better grasp of the situation. Although, 1.5 quarters is hardly enough time to really give him a fair sumation. I hope for our teams sake that DC gets his head out of his butt and plays like he was picked to.

As a sales manager as well, this has been my take for years on our QB situation. We will certainly see what we have in Carr next week.

texan_fan_8
10-30-2006, 08:58 AM
I really wish people would stop using that leadership argument. Maybe you Carr haters (for lack of a better phrase) are right about his pocket presence, stairing down receivers, not seeing the whole field, etc., but that leadership stuff is straw man material, as the antireligious people would say.

For staters i'm not an anti carr person, I am a pro texan person. But lets set that aside. The QB must lead. Must be able to take charge. He just doesn't do that. A QB that is a leader is a winning QB. Look at lets say the colts teams that went though a major personal change that has affected their team, But Manning is a leader and has lead them to an undefeated system. Talent and leadership are both required in the NFL.
And the same can be argued in opposite about the steelers this year. Big Ben hasn't been all that big and guess what they have the same record as we do and they won the superbowl. in what January.

So yes the QB needs to be a leader. David has not been a leader consistantly.

Mr. White
10-30-2006, 09:10 AM
The bottom line here is we don't know how to win yet. We hear it all week long if we really make an effort to keep up with the team.

I don't think he knows what he has to do yet to win consistently. I agree that this one's on him. I also agree with Kubes' call to pull him. It's part of the learning process.

Rosenfels made a good showing, but I didn't think his throws were all that pretty. I think AJ had a whole lot to do with thosee passes being complete. The Titans playing zone in the 2nd half didn't hurt him either.

The OL's still got problems. Otherwise, I like what I saw from the rest of the team. The defense keeps improving. We've finally got a RB now.

tulexan
10-30-2006, 09:17 AM
Look at lets say the colts teams that went though a major personal change that has affected their team, But Manning is a leader and has lead them to an undefeated system.

They still have Harrison, Wayne, Stokely, Clark, and a great offensive line. Aside from losing Edgerrin (who they replaced with a highly recruited running back), what was the major personnel change?

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 09:22 AM
Carr can't be an effective leader, until he stops making mistakes.... Mistakes that lead directly to points.

dalemurphy
10-30-2006, 09:26 AM
This is the process. He's not going to shut the guy down after the first time benched. Carr is going to play better or sit. The fans will be heard now. Rosenfelds could not have done a better job. David Carr has little hands and no heart. He won't stand in the pocket. Vince Young busted his hand on the helmet of a defender as he threw the ball. He didn't care about the fact he might hurt his thumb. He was focused on making the throw. He has heart. Carr has limited heart and smarts. He would be the perfect 24/7 scripted QB. If there is a situation that requires "guile" he's ****ed.


The fans better not be heard! The last thing I want is our coaching staff making decisions based on the ignorant fans. If the draft and yesterday's benching tells you anything, it's that as fans we can be confident that Kubiak and company are making decisions they believe are best for the team and are not concerned with fallout, others opinions, hurting feelings, or being second-guessed. I, for one, find it refreshing and very encouraging.

beerlover
10-30-2006, 09:30 AM
Carr must be trying too hard (locking onto targets unaware of the rush around him) blocking out fan noise & fear of contact. A papermache QB that when the wheels come off & the going gets tough comes unraveled & adds to the teams ugly demise :embarrass

kingh99
10-30-2006, 09:45 AM
The team reacts to David Carr like Eric "Otto" Stratton reacts to Douglas Niedermeyer. They love it when his horse gets hit in the balls. seriously David needs coaching. He needs to learn how to suck up to guys like Salaam so they won't put the knife in his back when the chips are down :). Keeping knifing boys. We, the fans are rooting for you.

I know you true believers are aghast at this attitude but we the fans who want this team to represent are willing to see Caesar knifed in the Senate if it means saving the Republic.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 09:48 AM
Carr must be trying too hard (locking onto targets unaware of the rush around him) blocking out fan noise & fear of contact. A papermache QB that when the wheels come off & the going gets tough comes unraveled & adds to the teams ugly demise :embarrass

No you are confused. Unaware is not the proper adjective. He's overly aware of the rush. Vince Young would be unaware as he completes his throw in spite of smashing his hand on the defender's helmet. That's the good kind of unaware. I gotta stop bagging on Carr but he's the face of the franchise. You wouldn't believe how hyped me and my buds got watching the Texans playing behind a real live NFL QB.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 09:49 AM
The fans better not be heard! The last thing I want is our coaching staff making decisions based on the ignorant fans. If the draft and yesterday's benching tells you anything, it's that as fans we can be confident that Kubiak and company are making decisions they believe are best for the team and are not concerned with fallout, others opinions, hurting feelings, or being second-guessed. I, for one, find it refreshing and very encouraging.

The real fans are rooting for Kubiak to bring Carr around or dump him. No more coddle. We aren't re-upping for this stuff.

texan_fan_8
10-30-2006, 09:51 AM
They still have Harrison, Wayne, Stokely, Clark, and a great offensive line. Aside from losing Edgerrin (who they replaced with a highly recruited running back), what was the major personnel change?


The softening of the running game has made problems for them. We even saw some if it when we played them. Manning has had to be a leader and step it up to a different level. Carr just does not exhibit those qualities.

Porky
10-30-2006, 11:20 AM
David Carr has 67 career starts. In those 67 starts, anyone care to guess how many times Carr has thrown for 3 td's in a game?

Okay, I will let the cat of the bag. Three. THREE. Three TD passes in a game 3 times in 67 starts. That is exactly 4.48% of his starts.

Now, Sage comes in and plays 25 minutes of football in one game, and manages to do in 1.5 quarters what Carr is able to do less than 5% of the time career wise in an entire game.

Anyone know how many fumbles Carr has in those 67 starts.

Sixty-Two. Sixty-two friggin fumbles in 67 starts. Almost an average of one per start! Pathetic.

He also has 58 interceptions in those 67 starts. That's 120 turnovers/potential turnovers in 67 career starts. That's 179.10% of the time averaged out.

He has 59 TD passes in that same time. Averaged out, he would throw one TD pass in 88.06% of his starts. A pro QB should be over a one td to game ratio over a career. Carr is at 88% lifetime.

Ladies and Gents, those numbers are pathetic. Those are the tangibles. Let's not even talk about his lack of poise, his lack of leadership, his inability to side step the rush or step up into the pocket, his holding onto the ball too long and sacking himself, his staring down of receivers, his inability to hit someone down the seam against a cover 2, and on and on. Carr neither deserves nor should get one more start. How many QB's stare down a receiver and throw into what amounts to quadruple coverage at this level? This QB is toast. He is garbage, and should be benched immediately.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 11:22 AM
Out of reverence for our member who has affinity for the other white meat and Carr's first turnover of the game, I give you a quadruple Harumph!

kingh99
10-30-2006, 11:27 AM
David Carr has 67 career starts. In those 67 starts, anyone care to guess how many times Carr has thrown for 3 td's in a game?

Okay, I will let the cat of the bag. Three. THREE. Three TD passes in a game 3 times in 67 starts. That is exactly 4.48% of his starts.

Now, Sage comes in and plays 25 minutes of football in one game, and manages to do in 1.5 quarters what Carr is able to do less than 5% of the time career wise in an entire game.

Anyone know how many fumbles Carr has in those 67 starts.

Sixty-Two. Sixty-two friggin fumbles in 67 starts. Almost an average of one per start! Pathetic.

He also has 58 interceptions in those 67 starts. That's 120 turnovers/potential turnovers in 67 career starts. That's 179.10% of the time averaged out.

He has 59 TD passes in that same time. Averaged out, he would throw one TD pass in 88.06% of his starts. A pro QB should be over a one td to game ratio over a career. Carr is at 88% lifetime.

Ladies and Gents, those numbers are pathetic. Those are the tangibles. Let's not even talk about his lack of poise, his lack of leadership, his inability to side step the rush or step up into the pocket, his holding onto the ball too long and sacking himself, his staring down of receivers, his inability to hit someone down the seam against a cover 2, and on and on. Carr neither deserves nor should get one more start. How many QB's stare down a receiver and throw into what amounts to quadruple coverage at this level? This QB is toast. He is garbage, and should be benched immediately.


So what are you trying to say here?

Mr teX
10-30-2006, 12:38 PM
David Carr has 67 career starts. In those 67 starts, anyone care to guess how many times Carr has thrown for 3 td's in a game?

Okay, I will let the cat of the bag. Three. THREE. Three TD passes in a game 3 times in 67 starts. That is exactly 4.48% of his starts.

Now, Sage comes in and plays 25 minutes of football in one game, and manages to do in 1.5 quarters what Carr is able to do less than 5% of the time career wise in an entire game.

Anyone know how many fumbles Carr has in those 67 starts.

Sixty-Two. Sixty-two friggin fumbles in 67 starts. Almost an average of one per start! Pathetic.

He also has 58 interceptions in those 67 starts. That's 120 turnovers/potential turnovers in 67 career starts. That's 179.10% of the time averaged out.

He has 59 TD passes in that same time. Averaged out, he would throw one TD pass in 88.06% of his starts. A pro QB should be over a one td to game ratio over a career. Carr is at 88% lifetime.

Ladies and Gents, those numbers are pathetic. Those are the tangibles. Let's not even talk about his lack of poise, his lack of leadership, his inability to side step the rush or step up into the pocket, his holding onto the ball too long and sacking himself, his staring down of receivers, his inability to hit someone down the seam against a cover 2, and on and on. Carr neither deserves nor should get one more start. How many QB's stare down a receiver and throw into what amounts to quadruple coverage at this level? This QB is toast. He is garbage, and should be benched immediately.


Yeah, people said the same sort of things about guys like Young, Favre, & Hasselbeck off the top of my head & they developed to be at the very least serviceable QBs. Now i am not saying that Carr is one of those guys or will become one but quite frankly, bad teams can make even HOF QB's look bad period. Sometimes a sit out/observation can do wonders for a QB, lets just hope that DC is one of those types of QB's who reacts the right way.

The way you guys are talking we were primed for a deep playoff run this year. I also find it comical that you guys have all this empirical evidence that the guy is a bum when Our coach who played behind HOF QB's & coached them as well says that we can win with this guy. Forgive me if i roll with Kubiak on this one.

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 12:40 PM
David Carr has 67 career starts. In those 67 starts, anyone care to guess how many times Carr has thrown for 3 td's in a game?

Okay, I will let the cat of the bag. Three. THREE. Three TD passes in a game 3 times in 67 starts. That is exactly 4.48% of his starts.

Now, Sage comes in and plays 25 minutes of football in one game, and manages to do in 1.5 quarters what Carr is able to do less than 5% of the time career wise in an entire game.


Now you know I am not a Carr lover, but this is silly. He's been sacked 208+ times in his careeer... how many blown ACLs, how many concussions, how many torn rotator cuffs, how many broken bones, how many bruised big toes, how many times has he just walked to the sideline and said screw it, you go out there.


you all want Carr to forget the poundings he's taken the past 4 years, and look down field, regardless what is happening around him. I think we should do the same. Forget this 3 TD game thing, it means nothing. Won't help or hurt our team going forward. Same with the fumbles, the INTs, etc... etc......


Has Kubiak made progress with Carr this year?? That's the only question about Carr we need to be asking.

kingh99
10-30-2006, 12:45 PM
Anyone who cannot see the change in fortune for the team once Sage came off the bench is simply in denial. David Carr has worn out his welcome here. We could have had Vince but I will gladly take Mario since he looks to be a leader the rest of the defense can respect. That last sentence should be bolded.

Porky
10-30-2006, 01:06 PM
Now you know I am not a Carr lover, but this is silly. He's been sacked 208+ times in his careeer... how many blown ACLs, how many concussions, how many torn rotator cuffs, how many broken bones, how many bruised big toes, how many times has he just walked to the sideline and said screw it, you go out there.


you all want Carr to forget the poundings he's taken the past 4 years, and look down field, regardless what is happening around him. I think we should do the same. Forget this 3 TD game thing, it means nothing. Won't help or hurt our team going forward. Same with the fumbles, the INTs, etc... etc......


Has Kubiak made progress with Carr this year?? That's the only question about Carr we need to be asking.

As far as I know - How many blown acl's? Zero. How many concussions? Zero. How many torn rotator cuffs? Zero. But, having said that, I don't call his toughness into question. A tough QB is great, but it doesn't automatically equate to a winning QB either. So, now his numbers are meaningless. This is a 67 game career we are talking about here. Exactly how many more years are you willing to piddle away with this guy. Until Andre is old and decripit? I'm not willing to wait for this supposed miracle to occur any longer. At what point are you willing to say he is what he is, and forget the miracle? We are waiting for Kibiak to turn water into wine, and it isn't going to happen.

Tale Gator
10-30-2006, 01:13 PM
When Sage entered the game the Texans looked like an entirely different team - we would have won if Sage had started.

The Texans front office is being incredible stubborn because of the wasted money they in Carr's contract. Dumb.

real
10-30-2006, 01:17 PM
At what point are you willing to say he is what he is, and forget the miracle? We are waiting for Kibiak to turn water into wine, and it isn't going to happen.

Now hold on Pards...

Your tone is coming off as if David hasn't been showing improvement this season...He has...

Kubiak doesn't equal Jesus, but if you look at his total body of work since he became a Texan, I am not sure how you come away un-impressed...

Point: It's way too early for Kubes to give up on David...You have to atleast give him the rest of the season before you make that kind of decision...David as far as I'm concerned is still an unknown at this point. At times he plays like a rookie, but overall his performance has progressively gotten better since Kubiak has began mentoring him...Give Carr the rest of the year, and if he still looks like Carr '05, then we should bench him, and pick up a veteran...

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 01:28 PM
Exactly how many more years are you willing to piddle away with this guy.

I was done with him back in January......

but the organization made the decision to give him $8 million. regardless who was in the draft, I thought it was time we moved on.

That being said, saying I told you so now, doesn't even come close to being relevant. Because it doesn't matter.

GK has been honest with us about Carr. He said he was the most improved player on this squad since OTAs..... I have to believe him. He has said as David goes, so the team goes..... I have to believe him. He has said that David still does some bad things that we need to work on. Trust me I believe him.

He's never said that David gives this team the best chance to win. He even made that clear, when everyone was hoping Sage would start with the first team in the preseason.

He's building a better football team, and he's making David a better QB. two different things. The fans want wins right now....... I don't understand why. GK said he's building a football team that will be a winning football team, and he isn't taking shortcuts so we can win now.

Bottom line, until CoachK feels David is no longer progressing, David will be the starter. & AFAIK, that's the way it should be.

I don't care about David. But I like a coach who will stick by his guy. Now if I thought GK didn't care, and wasn't working with David through the week, but still said he'll be the starter no matter what, then i'd be upset.

But Coach said, "he's fumbling a lot. I don't like him to fumble a lot. We'll work on him not fumbling"

I can dig it.

Second Honeymoon
10-30-2006, 01:45 PM
Kubiak is really worrying me right about now. He chose Carr a few months back when he first came to the team. He went against popular opinion and passed on VY and said Carr was his guy come hell or high water. He picked up Carr's option, anointed him starter, and passed on some other top level QBs in this past draft. He is stuck with him and because of that, I feel that Kubiak panicked. He blinked. Bud and VY got a good laugh out of that one I would imagine.

Kubiak may have thrown away weeks of growing confidence by benching Carr....or maybe it lights a fire under Carr and helps him grow..either way it was a risky panic move...If you bench a guy after 2 bad quarters of football, you might as well start shopping him around because it's obvious he isn't convinced anymore.

in my opinion Carr has shown some significant improvement under Kubiak in a short period of time. Benching him in the Titans matchup just doesnt play well with me and I felt that it showed Carr up pretty bad. These dudes stuck with him when everyone wanted to make a change and now they want to alienate him on Week7? And they do this after improvement has been evident as well as a strong game last week v. Jacksonville. I guess Head Coaches can be rookies too.

Second Honeymoon
10-30-2006, 02:10 PM
When Sage entered the game the Texans looked like an entirely different team - we would have won if Sage had started.

The Texans front office is being incredible stubborn because of the wasted money they in Carr's contract. Dumb.

When Sage entered the game it was an entirely different game as well. He faced few blitzes and softer coverages. He played great. He threw his hat in the ring. But Kubiak chose Carr. He can't be so deluded that he thinks he can turn Carr into gold in 7 weeks? Barring 'phantom' injury, he needs to stick with the horse he rode in on and that horse is David Carr.

I don't think the loyalty should be based on the contract but moreso on patience and the desire to create stability and confidence. If they gave up on a guy in Week7 then how much did they really believe in him when they exercised the option?

I just want to win and if Sage truly gives our team the best chance to win, put him in. However, Kubiak and McNair DO NOT get off the hook for picking Carr over VY. Hopefully it all works out for all of us fans.

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 02:13 PM
in my opinion Carr has shown some significant improvement under Kubiak in a short period of time. Benching him in the Titans matchup just doesnt play well with me and I felt that it showed Carr up pretty bad. These dudes stuck with him when everyone wanted to make a change and now they want to alienate him on Week7? And they do this after improvement has been evident as well as a strong game last week v. Jacksonville. I guess Head Coaches can be rookies too.

IMO, I can agree that I don't like that he did it during this particular game.... if people weren't already second guessing the decision to stick with Carr already. It's not important, but to me it gives people the ability to say, "See, I was right, we should've drafted Vince, since we're benching this guy anyway."

I like the move of benching Carr....... but to say it was brought about by this game alone is silly. He's had several bad games & I'm sure he's been told to protect the football since the beggining of the season. Maybe Coach K felt like he wasn't getting through, and had to take the next step.

To do this, knowing the scrutiny he would face may say something indeed about Kubiak...... that he's about winning football games, and not "saving face". & you gotta respect that.

Tale Gator
10-30-2006, 02:21 PM
Barring 'phantom' injury, he needs to stick with the horse he rode in on and that horse is David Carr.


The horse he rode in on is now 20-51 as a starter in the NFL -- that is pathetic.

Second Honeymoon
10-30-2006, 02:44 PM
The horse he rode in on is now 20-51 as a starter in the NFL -- that is pathetic.

Dude, your preaching to the choir. I have never been a believer in Carr since Day One. I didn't think drafting a QB first year was the right way to go. My problem is that Kubiak and Co. chose Carr after his contract expired, thus they are now responsible, not Casserley and it makes me question either Kubiak's honesty about Carr during the interview process or about Kubiak's ability to evaluate talent.

This is going to be a hit or miss move by Kubiak. A bit of a panic move this early in the season imho. If it works out Kubiak looks genius but if it doesnt Kubiak and Co. must not be let off the hook. McNair just needs to totally get out of any direct involvement in the football operations because even back when we resigned Carr, it had the stink of 'owner meddling' all over it. Just sign the checks and continue to raise ticket prices and concession costs....the guy just needs to start putting a better product on the field or this franchise will plummet like Enron.

doug

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 02:52 PM
Dude, your preaching to the choir. I have never been a believer in Carr since Day One. I didn't think drafting a QB first year was the right way to go. My problem is that Kubiak and Co. chose Carr after his contract expired, thus they are now responsible, not Casserley and it makes me question either Kubiak's honesty about Carr during the interview process or about Kubiak's ability to evaluate talent.

This is going to be a hit or miss move by Kubiak. A bit of a panic move this early in the season imho. If it works out Kubiak looks genius but if it doesnt Kubiak and Co. must not be let off the hook. McNair just needs to totally get out of any direct involvement in the football operations because even back when we resigned Carr, it had the stink of 'owner meddling' all over it. Just sign the checks and continue to raise ticket prices and concession costs....the guy just needs to start putting a better product on the field or this franchise will plummet like Enron.

doug


such a Carr lover ;)

L33Z71
10-30-2006, 02:55 PM
When Sage entered the game it was an entirely different game as well. He faced few blitzes and softer coverages. He played great. He threw his hat in the ring. But Kubiak chose Carr. He can't be so deluded that he thinks he can turn Carr into gold in 7 weeks? Barring 'phantom' injury, he needs to stick with the horse he rode in on and that horse is David Carr.



I think his horse is Lame.

ccdude730
10-30-2006, 02:56 PM
a backup qb comes in to a game (with a change in scheme) and outperforms the starter and now everyone wants sage to start. its really frustrating reading everyone comments since the game.

-before we even hired kubiak, most of us here are ready to give him a year to learn the offense and break his old/bad habits to develop new/better ones. we are at game 7 of 16.

-and again after everyone here is ready to look past his 4 years with palmer/pendry, everyone wanting sage to start is now is going back to carrs stats as evidence. im sorry but if kubiak was working with carr since year 1 - i would allow it, but thats not the case.

-kubiak said he would pull him if he fumbled him again - and he fumbled! so pull him out and sit him for the rest of the game. how is this an automatic start for sage next week?

im all for doing whats best for the team and FOR THE TACKS GAME it was pulling carr. thats not whats best for the rest of the season. call me a carr lover, but i just want to see the guy do well after suffering through the worst parts of his career. he is now in a system that HE believes in and a coach that believes in him.

write me down as the guy who is ready to give him the rest of the season before we start looking elsewhere

Second Honeymoon
10-30-2006, 03:32 PM
a backup qb comes in to a game (with a change in scheme) and outperforms the starter and now everyone wants sage to start. its really frustrating reading everyone comments since the game.

-before we even hired kubiak, most of us here are ready to give him a year to learn the offense and break his old/bad habits to develop new/better ones. we are at game 7 of 16.

-and again after everyone here is ready to look past his 4 years with palmer/pendry, everyone wanting sage to start is now is going back to carrs stats as evidence. im sorry but if kubiak was working with carr since year 1 - i would allow it, but thats not the case.

-kubiak said he would pull him if he fumbled him again - and he fumbled! so pull him out and sit him for the rest of the game. how is this an automatic start for sage next week?

im all for doing whats best for the team and FOR THE TACKS GAME it was pulling carr. thats not whats best for the rest of the season. call me a carr lover, but i just want to see the guy do well after suffering through the worst parts of his career. he is now in a system that HE believes in and a coach that believes in him.

write me down as the guy who is ready to give him the rest of the season before we start looking elsewhere

Your not a Carr lover just because you think Week7 is a bit early for a QB change based on the improvement that has been shown.

Did he fall back into some bad habits on Sunday, yeah. He held onto the ball too long and focused on one target too often. The fumbles are just part of football when you are getting sacked. The guy has fumbled a lot but that is mostly due to factors other than his ability to hold onto the ball (sheer number of sacks he has taken, sacks, playing from behind) I would imagine his fumble/sack ratio is average at worst.

To put an ultimatum on 'your guy' in Week7 is way too early based on what any sane individual knew was up ahead in regards to the development of Carr. The guy has inherent flaws in his game but Kubiak has been helping fix or remediate them. I just hope his panic move on Sunday doesnt retard the development of Carr under him. Sage playing well didn't help matters any. When you pull a QB it starts a controversy. Any experienced coach should know that...especially one from Denver.

I may feel Sage may be our best chance to win football games this year but if Carr isn't starting he has to be traded or we will never get closure or turn page as a franchise. I say RE-anoint him as the starter for the balance of the year or trade him. Quarterback by committee and QB controversies are not conducive to a team's development and with all our youth we need as much stability and direction as possible.

Either Carr is starter and gets a longer leash for the remainder of the year OR you trade him ASAP. Just choose.

michaelm
10-30-2006, 03:48 PM
Your not a Carr lover just because you think Week7 is a bit early for a QB change based on the improvement that has been shown.

Did he fall back into some bad habits on Sunday, yeah. He held onto the ball too long and focused on one target too often. The fumbles are just part of football when you are getting sacked. The guy has fumbled a lot but that is mostly due to factors other than his ability to hold onto the ball (sheer number of sacks he has taken, sacks, playing from behind) I would imagine his fumble/sack ratio is average at worst.

To put an ultimatum on 'your guy' in Week7 is way too early based on what any sane individual knew was up ahead in regards to the development of Carr. The guy has inherent flaws in his game but Kubiak has been helping fix or remediate them. I just hope his panic move on Sunday doesnt retard the development of Carr under him. Sage playing well didn't help matters any. When you pull a QB it starts a controversy. Any experienced coach should know that...especially one from Denver.

I may feel Sage may be our best chance to win football games this year but if Carr isn't starting he has to be traded or we will never get closure or turn page as a franchise. I say RE-anoint him as the starter for the balance of the year or trade him. Quarterback by committee and QB controversies are not conducive to a team's development and with all our youth we need as much stability and direction as possible.

Either Carr is starter and gets a longer leash for the remainder of the year OR you trade him ASAP. Just choose.


I agree, but if you're a head coach and want to send a meassage and/or get the attention of your starter, yesterday's opportunity was a pretty good one. I'm interested to see how David responds on the field...

Heath Shuler
10-30-2006, 06:21 PM
No, you are.
What a clever response.

You Carr apologists are bizarre. You honestly think he played a good game? Did you even watch the game? What color is the sky in your world? I donít understand how someone could possibly be so clueless.

Hookem Horns
10-30-2006, 06:38 PM
Kubes just said that "Carr is the future of this franchise" and "We are going to keep doing what we have been doing".

What I get out of these 2 statements is our future is doomed and we will keep losing.

ccdude730
10-30-2006, 06:46 PM
Kubes just said that "Carr is the future of this franchise" and "We are going to keep doing what we have been doing".

What I get out of these 2 statements is our future is doomed and we will keep losing.

i guess since you posted the negative view, ill give the possitive side: kubiak will continue to push carr to improve. kubiak is sticking to a SYSTEM that works

Porky
10-30-2006, 06:46 PM
Kubes just said that "Carr is the future of this franchise" and "We are going to keep doing what we have been doing".

What I get out of these 2 statements is our future is doomed and we will keep losing.

He really said that? Oy. I hope that was just for public consumption, because if it isn't, he is a moron. I just lost all respect for Kubes if he really believes that. Keep doing the same stupid stuff that isn't working over and over, while banging ones head against the wall. Ya, that sounds like a plan. Okay, let me be the first to start. So, who is our next loser head coach going to be after this loser gets fired? :brickwall

thunderkyss
10-30-2006, 07:04 PM
He really said that? Oy. I hope that was just for public consumption, because if it isn't, he is a moron. I just lost all respect for Kubes if he really believes that. Keep doing the same stupid stuff that isn't working over and over, while banging ones head against the wall. Ya, that sounds like a plan. Okay, let me be the first to start. So, who is our next loser head coach going to be after this loser gets fired? :brickwall

You're not seeing the big picture here. I, like you, am not the biggest David Carr fan, but the man set out a path at the beginning of the year. He set out goals, and milestones for every part of this team.

Part of that is a plan to help David experience some success, and for this team to be successful with David at QB.

He's said since the beginning that as long as David does what he asks him to do, and shows progress, he's going to stick with David.

Let's look at it this way. If Steve Mcnair was with the Tennessee Titans, who would give the Titans a better chance to win?? I believe the answer is McNair. But the Titans decided they'd rather start Vince this year so he won't be "learning" next year, and they can really contend for a playoff spot. So they ditched McNair, making it clear to the fans, the most important thing is to get Vince experience, & that he learns how to play football in the NFL.

That's the same way it is here. Sure, David isn't a rookie....... & we will try to win some games this year. But it is more important for us to teach & train David Carr how to be a QB in the NFL. You & I may believe that Sage is the better QB. But Kubiak doesn't feel that Sage is better than David can be.

My opinion?? He might be right. & I say that as a guy who never wanted David Carr to be the first QB of the Houston Texans.

I like that we have a coach who says this is my guy, and sticks to it. Especially since he continues to say we will work on this, we will work on that.

Second Honeymoon
10-30-2006, 07:18 PM
I like that we have a coach who says this is my guy, and sticks to it.

The point I am making is that he DIDN'T stick with his guy.

doug

hollywood_texan
10-30-2006, 07:21 PM
Let's look at it this way. If Steve Mcnair was with the Tennessee Titans, who would give the Titans a better chance to win?? I believe the answer is McNair. But the Titans decided they'd rather start Vince this year so he won't be "learning" next year, and they can really contend for a playoff spot. So they ditched McNair, making it clear to the fans, the most important thing is to get Vince experience, & that he learns how to play football in the NFL.

The McNair situation was totally about money.

McNair had a huge roster bonus coming due and the Titans wanted to renegotiate the deal to a lot less money.

McNair pushed their hands to cut him so he could test the open market.

Then, Tennessee made the decision to just get value for a guy they couldn't renegotiate with.

Tennessee would have rather kept McNair, you are right about that, but it was too expensive for them.

Therefore, they made the best decision they could considering the circumstances.

That is the era of free agency.

NFLforher
10-30-2006, 07:51 PM
such a Carr lover ;)



What an ignorant response.

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 09:49 PM
What an ignorant response.

Without context absolutely. But on the other hand, your response was classy.

michaelm
10-31-2006, 12:12 AM
What an ignorant response.

Maybe you should actually read the post he was responding to and/or mix in a little of the two participants past history on the subject...
never mind, just don't reply to what you don't understand...


...if you do that, I guess that would be about the last reply we get out of you.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 06:38 AM
The point I am making is that he DIDN'T stick with his guy.

doug

He didn't stick with him for that game. But he will start him against NYG.


60 fumbles in 67 games, when do you think we should address that problem?? In the offseason?? do you think we should let him play it out of his system over the next 60 games??



McNair pushed their hands to cut him so he could test the open market.

That is the era of free agency.

Not exactly. Fisher said he was away from the office when that stuff happened. There's no doubt in his mind they could've figured something out, had he been involved with the decision.

Old QBs don't want to test the open market.

Tennessee ditched McNair, so they could start Vince this year.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 07:56 AM
When Sage entered the game it was an entirely different game as well.

When David fumbled in the first half, it was a 4 man rush, no blitz...

In the second half, it was a 5 man rush......

wolfscar
10-31-2006, 08:29 AM
You can't build a football team by making knee jerk calls every time something goes wrong (like signing Ron Dayne, for example). Sure, this is our fifth year, but the first four were dismal and best forgotten. This is effectively our first year, and it's going to have problems. If you change around your personnel - particularly your QB - every couple of games then the players, coaches and everyone involved will never be able to settle and get comfortable with what is basically a new system. Sure - if DC had been awful all season, fair enough: bench him. But he has been one of the best quarterbacks in the league, and that behind a team that is only just now beginning to gel.

Yes he's made some bad decisions but show me a quarterback who hasn't. You dont get a 94.3% rating on the season to date if you suck.

Yes he had a bad game but Rex Grossman had a much worse one against the Cardinals and look what happened the next game. Credit to Kubiak for pulling DC - it's what Lovie Smith should have done to Grossman. But putting Grossman straight back out there was precisely the right call and the same goes for our situation.

Yes Carr has some bad habits but I put a lot of the blame for that on his college coaches and on the previous Texans staff. You can't stare down your receiver every damn play. That should have been beaten out of him a long time ago. But what do you hear Kubiak talking about every week? He talks about how coachable Carr is - give the guy some time to work in a setup that will improve his overall game rather than just crossing their fingers and trusting that his talent will create plays.

Sage has been great - it's invaluable having someone at no.2 who can step up and do a job, but to call for Carr to be benched permanently or traded after ONE bad game on the season? For god's sake, show a shred of loyalty.

thunderkyss
10-31-2006, 08:35 AM
You can't build a football team by making knee jerk calls every time something goes wrong


We need to define knee-jerk.


This goes back to Indy..... 2 fumbles that put Indy inside our 20, and led directly to 10 points agianst us. he had 3 fumbles on the day.

Washington.... 3 fumbles..... 2 recovered, the 3rd led to a field goal(3 points against us) in the third Qtr.

Miami.... 2 fumbles. One led to a Field goal by Miami(3 points against us).

Tennessee.... 2 fumbles... one led to 7 points by Tennessee.

EphraimSallam..... far as I know, he's been penalty free up to the Tennessee game.

Kaiser Toro
10-31-2006, 08:36 AM
You can't build a football team by making knee jerk calls every time something goes wrong (like signing Ron Dayne, for example). Sure, this is our fifth year, but the first four were dismal and best forgotten. This is effectively our first year, and it's going to have problems. If you change around your personnel - particularly your QB - every couple of games then the players, coaches and everyone involved will never be able to settle and get comfortable with what is basically a new system. Sure - if DC had been awful all season, fair enough: bench him. But he has been one of the best quarterbacks in the league, and that behind a team that is only just now beginning to gel.

Yes he's made some bad decisions but show me a quarterback who hasn't. You dont get a 94.3% rating on the season to date if you suck.

Yes he had a bad game but Rex Grossman had a much worse one against the Cardinals and look what happened the next game. Credit to Kubiak for pulling DC - it's what Lovie Smith should have done to Grossman. But putting Grossman straight back out there was precisely the right call and the same goes for our situation.

Yes Carr has some bad habits but I put a lot of the blame for that on his college coaches and on the previous Texans staff. You can't stare down your receiver every damn play. That should have been beaten out of him a long time ago. But what do you hear Kubiak talking about every week? He talks about how coachable Carr is - give the guy some time to work in a setup that will improve his overall game rather than just crossing their fingers and trusting that his talent will create plays.

Sage has been great - it's invaluable having someone at no.2 who can step up and do a job, but to call for Carr to be benched permanently or traded after ONE bad game on the season? For god's sake, show a shred of loyalty.

So if I understand your string of logic correctly, Kubiak should just forget 4 years of film on Carr and not leverage any of his playing or coaching experience to set expectations; and then carry them out especially after the move yielded results that we have never seen from Carr in the past? Moreover, Rex Grossman, Lovie and the Bears are irrelevant to our situation.

Kubiak has loyalty to the fans of Houston, not to one man who was the third best QB on the field in Nashville this past Sunday.

wolfscar
10-31-2006, 09:00 AM
So if I understand your string of logic correctly, Kubiak should just forget 4 years of film on Carr and not leverage any of his playing or coaching experience to set expectations; and then carry them out especially after the move yielded results that we have never seen from Carr in the past? Moreover, Rex Grossman, Lovie and the Bears are irrelevant to our situation.

Kubiak has loyalty to the fans of Houston, not to one man who was the third best QB on the field in Nashville this past Sunday.

No - he should trust the playing and coaching experience that you mentioned and go with what he believes to be the right call. Which is what he will do and what he's doing. Pulling Carr when he's having a woeful day was right. Starting him next week is right too.

I'm sure he has watched 4 years of film on Carr and he believes that Carr is the right starter for the job. I agree. DC has a huge amount of talent but he's been badly coached. Hopefully Kubiak is the guy to fix that.

And I wasn't talking about Kubiak's loyalty - I was talking about the fans. I just hate the way people turn so completely on someone because they screw up through one half. I'm not saying he was perfect this season up to then, but he has been good overall. Four years of crap can't be overturned in 7 weeks. This is going to take a little time and we're going in right direction overall.

wolfscar
10-31-2006, 09:40 AM
We need to define knee-jerk.

You're right - Carr's fumbles have really cost us this year - but the rest of his play has been pretty encouraging. I'm not saying that he IS without a doubt the right guy, I'm just saying that so far I think his good has outweighed his bad and Kubiak seems to believe that too. There just seems to be a lot of people calling for his head and declaring Sage Rosenfels the answer to all our prayers on the basis of the Titans game, which is nonsense. He has a fumbling problem, which needs to be remedied, but he's been productive too.

QB75
10-31-2006, 09:54 AM
I guess there are 8 Million reasonsfor this:brickwall

No, there is one reason. He is the better QB.

kingh99
10-31-2006, 09:55 AM
You're right - Carr's fumbles have really cost us this year - but the rest of his play has been pretty encouraging. I'm not saying that he IS without a doubt the right guy, I'm just saying that so far I think his good has outweighed his bad and Kubiak seems to believe that too. There just seems to be a lot of people calling for his head and declaring Sage Rosenfels the answer to all our prayers on the basis of the Titans game, which is nonsense. He has a fumbling problem, which needs to be remedied, but he's been productive too.

It's not just a fumble problem. It's a problem with leadership and being respected. He has body language is like a little kid's body language. Rosenfeld's demeanor is much more mature. Carr acts like a QB that's never been benched. He needs some whiskey in his milkshake of life. That's as simple as I can put it.

real
10-31-2006, 10:00 AM
It's not just a fumble problem. It's a problem with leadership and being respected. He has body language is like a little kid's body language. Rosenfeld's demeanor is much more mature. Carr acts like a QB that's never been benched. He needs some whiskey in his milkshake of life. That's as simple as I can put it.

Im not really sure how you expect the guy to act...

IMO, if you bench any starting QB in the leauge they'd be upset and it would show....

Would you rather he not give a damn ???

kingh99
10-31-2006, 10:21 AM
Im not really sure how you expect the guy to act...

IMO, if you bench any starting QB in the leauge they'd be upset and it would show....

Would you rather he not give a damn ???

I wasn't talking about how he acted after the benching. I was talking about him in general. He's the QB of the Texans but he'll never be my QB. He just doesn't have it. It being the intangibles. I would feel sorry for him but he's worth a mint.