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View Full Version : Could Troy Smith be better then VY?


Errant Hothy
10-22-2006, 11:46 AM
The intention of this is to not start a flame war or bash-fest, but to discuss the best two mobile Qbs to play college football since Vick.

Personnaly I've been blown away by Smith's passing. He's accurate as all get out, throws a good deep ball and is money on the timing routes. His biggest challenge will be against Michigain, where if he carries Ohio State to a victory, much like VY carried UT several times, I think he is a lock for the Heisman. This is also the area where VY may be better, the intangables. I doubt Smith has had much effect on Trussle (sp?) but we all know that VY changed Mack Brown. As for running ability, Smith hasn't had to do much this year but we all know that he can. Is he the same kinda threat as VY? I don't think so, Vince was a true homerun hitter with his feet at the QB spot; and I just don't think Smith has the ability to go 60+ for a score.

And I'd take both before Vick.

Dr. Toro
10-22-2006, 12:29 PM
Smith is a more technically proficient passer, no doubt. That doesn't necessarily make him a more effective passer or QB... the other half of the game is finding receivers and making the right decisions. He's certainly not as big as Vince, and I haven't watched enough tape to make any conclusions, but I'd say from a strict passing standpoint, he's his equal if not better. All I ever see is Troy Smith throwing beautiful deep bombs... he actually reminds me of McNabb, who throws the prettiest ball in the game, IMO.

What VY had going for him was the ability to make big throws in the red-zone and to move the chains. I think VY's size is a huge asset, we've already seen him be very tough to take down at this level. Smith is a stud... no doubt. He's only 6'1" and he's not the runner that VY is... we'll find out about the intangibles as this season progresses. I love the dude's game... wouldn't mind us taking him if Carr can't produce some wins (not trying to stir anything up here).

In short, I think that Troy Smith could be better than VY... he is a more gifted passer... he's not as big or as lethal on the ground and he hasn't been mega-clutch like VY. I think he can be the next Donovan McNabb though, and at last check, McNabb was the best QB not named Peyton.

mexican_texan
10-22-2006, 12:40 PM
VY is way more elusive. His size makes his speed decieving and it's hard to tackle him. I have said that Troy Smith is the better QB, but VY is the guy that will win any game.

kastofsna
10-22-2006, 12:48 PM
i said last year that he is. although i don't think he's a better prospect.

Dr. Toro
10-22-2006, 12:55 PM
i said last year that he is. although i don't think he's a better prospect.

Why not Miss Cleo? Height?

rmartin65
10-22-2006, 01:11 PM
I think he is a better QB. He can run, but chooses to pass.

mexican_texan
10-22-2006, 02:12 PM
i said last year that he is. although i don't think he's a better prospect.
We both did. I said it after the Rose Bowl as well.

Snapple
10-22-2006, 02:48 PM
Smith is a more technically proficient passer, no doubt.

No, he isn't. Smith didn't even win the starting job until halfway through his junior year. I don't know how you can call him "more proficient" when VY has way more experience playing QB at the college level. That's what proficiency means.

Plus, maybe people have short term memory loss, but I have to remind people that Vince Young led all QBs in passing efficiency last year, moreso than Matt Leinart or any of the other typical pocket passers. He's not Michael Vick, a guy who can run but is a so-so passer. Vince learned how to pass very well in college.

Dr. Toro
10-22-2006, 02:57 PM
No, he isn't. Smith didn't even win the starting job until halfway through his junior year. I don't know how you can call him "more proficient" when VY has way more experience playing QB at the college level. That's what proficiency means.

Plus, maybe people have short term memory loss, but I have to remind people that Vince Young led all QBs in passing efficiency last year, moreso than Matt Leinart or any of the other typical pocket passers. He's not Michael Vick, a guy who can run but is a so-so passer. Vince learned how to pass very well in college.

Technically proficient means "has better mechanics"/"throws a better ball". I might be the biggest VY fan on the board, but there's little debate about that, in my opinion. If you would read the rest of my post, I say that doesn't make him a better passer or QB... but with respect to throwing the ball only, there's little question he's more talented.

kastofsna
10-22-2006, 03:06 PM
troy smith is definitely more proficient. 68% of his passes completed, and 82% of those are to his receivers. unlike young, who completed a TON of passes to his backs and TE's, which is a sign of a QB who isn't nearly as mature as you want him to be.

Dr. Toro
10-22-2006, 03:17 PM
Part of the passes to TE's/RB's is due to the LBs obsessively spying VY... no reason to take chances down field when you have a guaranteed 10 yds.

kastofsna
10-22-2006, 04:01 PM
edit: nm

Huge
10-23-2006, 09:30 AM
Vince Young - 212/325 (65.2%), 3036 yards, 26 TDs, 10 INTs
Troy Smith - 149/237 (62.9%), 2282 yards, 16 TDs, 4 INTs

Those are their stats from last year...both QBs' Jr. seasons. If you're going to compare Smith this year to Young last year, shouldn't you take into account that Young would probably have improved on last year as well?

And given the differences in talent on both offenses, I would expect Smith to take advantage of his WRs. One (Santonio Holmes) was a 1st round draft pick. The other (Tedd Ginn) will be as well. Vince's WRs were freshmen and sophomores. So he took advantage of his best target..TE David Thomas. Now you can predict that Limas Sweed may end up being a 1st round pick but would you put '05 Limas Sweed on the same level with '05 Holmes?

real
10-23-2006, 09:37 AM
Vince Young - 212/325 (65.2%), 3036 yards, 26 TDs, 10 INTs
Troy Smith - 149/237 (62.9%), 2282 yards, 16 TDs, 4 INTs

Those are their stats from last year...both QBs' Jr. seasons. If you're going to compare Smith this year to Young last year, shouldn't you take into account that Young would probably have improved on last year as well?

And given the differences in talent on both offenses, I would expect Smith to take advantage of his WRs. One (Santonio Holmes) was a 1st round draft pick. The other (Tedd Ginn) will be as well. Vince's WRs were freshmen and sophomores. So he took advantage of his best target..TE David Thomas. Now you can predict that Limas Sweed may end up being a 1st round pick but would you put '05 Limas Sweed on the same level with '05 Holmes?

Wow...rep coming your way....

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 10:12 AM
i like that troy smith is a passer first and rarely runs at all these days. much more disciplined than young.

what the hell was i talking about, he's DEFINITELY a better prospect than young.

real
10-23-2006, 10:21 AM
i like that troy smith is a passer first and rarely runs at all these days. much more disciplined than young.

what the hell was i talking about, he's DEFINITELY a better prospect than young.

VY isn't running much this year...

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 10:33 AM
okie dokie.

Yankee_In_TX
10-23-2006, 10:52 AM
I will refrain from posting :shades:

I have been saying "Smith, Houston Texan 2007."

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 10:53 AM
what would be the point in the texans drafting him?

V Man
10-23-2006, 11:27 AM
The intention of this is to not start a flame war or bash-fest, but to discuss the best two mobile Qbs to play college football since Vick.



Maybe we should start adding Pat White from West Virginia to this list. He maybe closer to Vick as a game changing (as a runner and a passer) than either Young or Smith.

real
10-23-2006, 11:51 AM
Maybe we should start adding Pat White from West Virginia to this list. He maybe closer to Vick as a game changing (as a runner and a passer) than either Young or Smith.

Pat White can Pass ??? Really ???

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 12:01 PM
Maybe we should start adding Pat White from West Virginia to this list. He maybe closer to Vick as a game changing (as a runner and a passer) than either Young or Smith.
pat white is barely a passer at all.

bah007
10-23-2006, 12:32 PM
If Smith throws for 3000 and rushes for 1000 in the same season then he is as good as Vince

p.s.- nobody but Vince has ever done that so I dont think its gonna happen

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 12:33 PM
If Smith throws for 3000 and rushes for 1000 in the same season then he is as good as Vince

p.s.- nobody but Vince has ever done that so I dont think its gonna happen
he's not a running QB, so he won't go for 1000 yards on the ground.

V Man
10-23-2006, 12:34 PM
Pat White can Pass ??? Really ???

pat white is barely a passer at all.

Half way through his Soph. season 64 of 93 for 822 (68.8 %).

Unfortunately we will truely never really know since his conference is so weak, and since his team can run for 300+ yards game you don't throw much.

Anyway we are comparing them to Vick remember, and he isn't exactly known for throwing the ball either.

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 12:36 PM
vick lead the nation in passing efficiency his freshman season. says a lot about that stat.

bah007
10-23-2006, 12:37 PM
he's not a running QB, so he won't go for 1000 yards on the ground.

your right. good point. then all he needs to do is throw for 4000 yds and lead his team to the championship

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 12:39 PM
your right. good point. then all he needs to do is throw for 4000 yds and lead his team to the championship
4000 yards isn't going to happen. sorry. you don't see 4000 yard passers in college unless they're at hawaii or texas tech or similar.

real
10-23-2006, 12:39 PM
Anyway we are comparing them to Vick remember, and he isn't exactly known for throwing the ball either.

Tell that to the Steelers...

mexican_texan
10-23-2006, 12:46 PM
You would draft a six foot tall QB? Or would you rather have 6'4 VY.

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 01:03 PM
You would draft a six foot tall QB? Or would you rather have 6'4 VY.

i'd rather have a guy who can pass the ball like an NFL QB.

V Man
10-23-2006, 01:03 PM
Tell that to the Steelers...

18 of 30 for 230+

I know 4 td's (even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while) + 2 Int.

Steelers beat themselves just as much as Vick did.

infantrycak
10-23-2006, 03:21 PM
4000 yards isn't going to happen. sorry. you don't see 4000 yard passers in college unless they're at hawaii or texas tech or similar.

Or Fresno State--4839 yds, 46 TD's.

Huge
10-23-2006, 03:49 PM
troy smith is definitely more proficient. 68% of his passes completed, and 82% of those are to his receivers. unlike young, who completed a TON of passes to his backs and TE's, which is a sign of a QB who isn't nearly as mature as you want him to be.
Drew Brees went to the Pro Bowl throwing the ball to Ladainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates. Was he not mature enough as a QB? Or was he just taking advantage of his better weapons (that's a sign of a very mature QB)?
i like that troy smith is a passer first and rarely runs at all these days. much more disciplined than young.

what the hell was i talking about, he's DEFINITELY a better prospect than young.
There's a difference between running because you know you can instead of running because you know you can't pass.

Vince knew he could run.

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 03:59 PM
Drew Brees went to the Pro Bowl throwing the ball to Ladainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates. Was he not mature enough as a QB? Or was he just taking advantage of his better weapons (that's a sign of a very mature QB)?
i'm not saying it's the end-all evidence that smith is a more mature passer than young, it's just one of several things.
There's a difference between running because you know you can instead of running because you know you can't pass.

Vince knew he could run.
if you say so.

Glacier
10-23-2006, 04:16 PM
Maybe we should start adding Pat White from West Virginia to this list. He maybe closer to Vick as a game changing (as a runner and a passer) than either Young or Smith.

Pat White isn't a threat at all as a passer. I'm shocked teams haven't exposed him yet. The one time a team forced him to throw, he threw 3 picks.

I'd love to see that WV team get plowed by the Horns, Aggies, Nebraska, Missou.....heh...this is the big east we are talking about. There are several teams in the Big 12, that get no love, that I think can not only run with that team, but out physical them.

Errant Hothy
10-23-2006, 04:19 PM
I think the bigger difference is that Vince would run to make a play with his legs, while Troy usually runs to make a play with his arm.

Watching Troy Smith's TD passes this weekend iw waht prompted this thread, and quite frankly Troy has the better arm.

HeartofHouston
10-23-2006, 04:37 PM
To Answer The Question... Yes

Vince Young was pampered by his offensive system in college where Troy Smith is not being pampered he is in a Systemed that is a lot more NFL ready than the one that Young ran at Texas.

Young is a athlete stuck in a QB position. Where Smith is a Quaterback with althetisim. I would take Smith anyday over Young simply because he doesn't put himself in a position to where he is going to mess around get himself hurt with all the scrambling.

Smith looks to pass first and then when the play breaks down he breaks containment and still looks to pass but when worst come sto worst you know he can break a 12 yard run if need be.

Smith in my opinion is a guy he believes in his system and excutes it to the fullest where Young is a guy where he's thinking.. "Screw This, I'm Going To Run!" Where Smith is like "Reciever 1 - Covered, Receiver 2 - Covered, TE - Covered, Okay 3 seconds is up time to get out of the pocket!"

TexansLucky13
10-23-2006, 04:38 PM
Troy Smith > Vince Young

No contest

Kaiser Toro
10-23-2006, 04:45 PM
That NFL ready offense is really putting out some great NFL ready offensive prospects over the last six years. :rolleyes:

http://ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/nfl-alltimedraft.html

Kaiser Toro
10-23-2006, 04:47 PM
Troy Smith > Vince Young

No contest

You are correct from an Aggie standpoint.

mexican_texan
10-23-2006, 04:52 PM
That NFL ready offense is really putting out some great NFL ready offensive prospects over the last six years. :rolleyes:

http://ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/archive/nfl-alltimedraft.html
http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/pages/longpros/alltimedraft.html
Double bladed sword

mexican_texan
10-23-2006, 04:53 PM
Vince Young has something that Troy Smith does not. That is the fire burning in VY that does not allow him to quit, what got UT the Rose Bowl.

Kaiser Toro
10-23-2006, 04:54 PM
http://www.mackbrown-texasfootball.com/pages/longpros/alltimedraft.html
Double bladed sword

Only if I were saying that Mack Brown's offense was a more NFL ready offense. Context, MT.

HeartofHouston
10-23-2006, 04:59 PM
Okay it seems as if you mis-read what I was writing.. as in Ohio State's offense is MORE NFL ready than Texas's zone-read-option was...

real
10-23-2006, 05:01 PM
Okay it seems as if you mis-read what I was writing.. as in Ohio State's offense is MORE NFL ready than Texas's zone-read-option was...

And I think he was pointing out that it doesn't translate into anything...

HeartofHouston
10-23-2006, 05:02 PM
ahhh gotcha..

Well TOUCHE.. neverthelss

Troy Smith > Vince Young

YoungTexanFan
10-23-2006, 05:44 PM
Pat White isn't a threat at all as a passer. I'm shocked teams haven't exposed him yet. The one time a team forced him to throw, he threw 3 picks.

I'd love to see that WV team get plowed by the Horns, Aggies, Nebraska, Missou.....heh...this is the big east we are talking about. There are several teams in the Big 12, that get no love, that I think can not only run with that team, but out physical them.

like Kansas?

chuckm
10-23-2006, 05:50 PM
(enter your human of choice) > Vince Young

go ahead try it ...... if you dare

Lucky
10-23-2006, 07:08 PM
Plus, maybe people have short term memory loss, but I have to remind people that Vince Young led all QBs in passing efficiency last year, moreso than Matt Leinart or any of the other typical pocket passers. He's not Michael Vick, a guy who can run but is a so-so passer. Vince learned how to pass very well in college.
This is where I remind those with long-term memory loss that in 1999, Michael Vick led the NCAA in passing efficiency...as a freshman. Big whoops!

mexican_texan
10-23-2006, 07:19 PM
Only if I were saying that Mack Brown's offense was a more NFL ready offense. Context, MT.
I'm off today...I'll lay off the milk now.

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 07:19 PM
Vince Young has something that Troy Smith does not. That is the fire burning in VY that does not allow him to quit, what got UT the Rose Bowl.
ah okay.

LORK 88
10-23-2006, 07:30 PM
Vince Young has something that Troy Smith does not. That is the fire burning in VY that does not allow him to quit, what got UT the Rose Bowl.
Troy is more NFL ready, Vince is the bigger gamble and obviously could be the better in the long run. As of right now though, I think Troy could do more if Vince doesnt prove anything.

Also, I forgot Ohio State was already out of contention for the National Championship . . .

Huge
10-23-2006, 07:37 PM
Troy is more NFL ready, Vince is the bigger gamble and obviously could be the better in the long run. As of right now though, I think Troy could do more if Vince doesnt prove anything.

Also, I forgot Ohio State was already out of contention for the National Championship . . .
They're still in contention because Vince is already in the NFL.

run-david-run
10-23-2006, 10:41 PM
I will refrain from posting :shades:

I have been saying "Smith, Houston Texan 2007."

But your a buckeye, therefore your opinion is worthless...jk. I think VY is one of the top 10 greatest college quarterbacks ever. He has the ability to take a team on his back and carry them like very few people can. Untill Smith shows that kind of ability, VY is still the better player. As a thrower, Smith is better, but as overall player, VY every time.

run-david-run
10-23-2006, 10:45 PM
ah okay.

I thought he was talking about that other thing Vince has that Troy dosnt (a national championship..)

TexansLucky13
10-23-2006, 10:46 PM
Troy is more NFL ready, Vince is the bigger gamble and obviously could be the better in the long run. As of right now though, I think Troy could do more if Vince doesnt prove anything.

It is completely obvious to me how a QB who gambles will inevitably succeed in the NFL.

:sarcasm:

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-24-2006, 12:35 AM
VY's size and elusiveness make him better.

BuffSoldier
10-24-2006, 05:42 AM
If VY didnt throw side arm we wouldnt even be having this conversation. And dont say that Smith is more accurate, VY did throw to his TE alot last year, but look at the tapes from last season, VY threw one of the prettiest deep balls in the country, just ask Troy Smith, he saw it last year at the end of that game.

And since when does running show a lack of maturity. I bet if Peyton Manning ran a 4.5 he would take off with the ball too. Why not use your athleticism to help win games, if anything Smith is acting less mature because he is not taking full advantage of his speed because he doesnt want to be known as a "scrambler".


#1 Passer rating last year, 3000 pass yards and 1000 on the ground, arguably the greatest single game NCAA performance ever in the Rose Bowl.

bah007
10-24-2006, 09:41 AM
4000 yards isn't going to happen. sorry. you don't see 4000 yard passers in college unless they're at hawaii or texas tech or similar.

you would have said the same thing if I told you before last season that Vince would have 4000 total yds. you would say no it wont happen because it never has before. he still did it

real
10-24-2006, 09:43 AM
you would have said the same thing if I told you before last season that Vince would have 4000 total yds. you would say no it wont happen because it never has before. he still did it

I haven't watched a lot of Ohio State Games, But last year there were a lot of games that VY didn't even play in the fourth quater....

bah007
10-24-2006, 09:45 AM
I haven't watched a lot of Ohio State Games, But last year there were a lot of games that VY didn't even play in the fourth quater....

thats true. Im a UT homer so Im biased. but Vince didnt even step on the field in the second half against Baylor and Kansas. And he didnt play the 4th quarter in the majority of the games

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-24-2006, 07:32 PM
thats true. Im a UT homer so Im biased. but Vince didnt even step on the field in the second half against Baylor and Kansas. And he didnt play the 4th quarter in the majority of the games

Exactly. And Matt Leinart did the exact opposite, he played in every Fourth quarter and 2nd half. A lot of his yards/TDs came when they were up 40-0. I've never seen USC go easy on someone. (I'm an LSU fan and we take our starters out after a 30+ lead)

mexican_texan
10-24-2006, 07:54 PM
VY's size and elusiveness make him better.
...and his determination. However, Troy Smith is more lethal with his arm.

TexanSam
10-24-2006, 08:17 PM
...and his determination. However, Troy Smith is more lethal with his arm.

They both have their pros and cons. I think Troy Smith is more NFL ready now than Vince Young was at this point last season. Young has more overall athletic talent but like you said, Smith has an awesome arm. That thing is a rocket launcher. Smith probably won't be 1st round draft pick and if he is, I think it'll be late 1st round. He's barely over 6 feet tall which is going to hurt his draft status quite a bit I think.

BuffSoldier
10-24-2006, 10:03 PM
Question. What makes Troy Smith more accurate of a passer than VY. I could see if he had an arm like Cutler has, but he doesnt. VY has the arm strength to make every throw, he throws a beautiful deep ball, and he throws with accuracy, if he didnt throw sidearm, there wouldnt be a knock on him.

Through 8 games this year Smith has 1715 passing yards and VY had 1835 through 8 last year.

Not to mention Troy Smith has much better weapons than VY had last season, and hes a senior not a junior.

kastofsna
10-25-2006, 08:54 AM
troy smith has a very strong arm. definitely stronger than vince young.

and why does it matter if he's a senior and young was a junior? you longwhorn fans are quick to defend young using points that mean nothing. the question is who's a better prospect, young or smith. simple as that.

real
10-25-2006, 08:57 AM
You all do realize that you are comparing someone who came out his junior year to someone who decided to stay...right???

IMHO, if VY would have decided to stay Troy Smith would be a non factor right now....

kastofsna
10-25-2006, 09:00 AM
if if if if if if if

real
10-25-2006, 09:00 AM
and why does it matter if he's a senior and young was a junior? you longwhorn fans are quick to defend young using points that mean nothing. the question is who's a better prospect, young or smith. simple as that.

Maybe becuae it's not really fair to compare a players junior year to another players senior year....Im not really sure how that doesn't make sense...

YoungTexanFan
10-25-2006, 09:08 AM
Troy Smith may not be quite as big physically, but he has led his team to wins, just as Young did. Offering an argument that Young possess a strong arm that can compare with Smith's is ludacris. Smith has one of the best deep balls I have ever seen, and his timing with his underneath routs is amazing. He is a better QB than Young, and possess the same natural ability to run, and I'd put good money on it that Smith is faster than Young.

real
10-25-2006, 09:11 AM
and possess the same natural ability to run, and I'd put good money on it that Smith is faster than Young.

That's a suckers argument....You almost had me though....

real
10-25-2006, 09:12 AM
if if if if if if if

Be real with yourself....If VY would have stayed another year Smith might quite possibly have been the 3rd or 4th QB taken in next years draft....

YoungTexanFan
10-25-2006, 09:21 AM
That's a suckers argument....You almost had me though....

That would be true or funny if I was a sucker.

Smith is a quick QB who can get "north and south" well. When I said runner, I meant that he has the ability to run, not that he does as much as Young. Smith is the next McNabb.

YoungTexanFan
10-25-2006, 09:23 AM
Be real with yourself....If VY would have stayed another year Smith might quite possibly have been the 3rd or 4th QB taken in next years draft....

Smith will probally be taken as the 3rd or 4th QB, but again, I think he will be better than Quinn and better than Henne or Stanton. I like Brohm though.

real
10-25-2006, 09:24 AM
That would be true or funny if I was a sucker.

Smith is a quick QB who can get "north and south" well. When I said runner, I meant that he has the ability to run, not that he does as much as Young. Smith is the next McNabb.

I don't think Smith Sucks....I really don't know what to think of him honestly....I am not really sure who the best QB coming out is going to be...

But IMHO, I don't think any of them are near the caliber that VY and Leinart were....:twocents:

infantrycak
10-25-2006, 09:35 AM
Be real with yourself....If VY would have stayed another year Smith might quite possibly have been the 3rd or 4th QB taken in next years draft....

Signed Matt Leinart.

real
10-25-2006, 09:39 AM
Signed Matt Leinart.

not the same

mexican_texan
10-25-2006, 09:51 AM
troy smith has a very strong arm. definitely stronger than vince young.

and why does it matter if he's a senior and young was a junior? you longwhorn fans are quick to defend young using points that mean nothing. the question is who's a better prospect, young or smith. simple as that.
I'm a longhorn fan...

Kaiser Toro
10-25-2006, 09:53 AM
Troy Smith could be better than VY, but will he? I do not think he will, but I cannot debate that he could be. Potential (could) and how he scales at the next level among a sample of players currently and in the future at the QB position are two different things. I see more Troy Smith type players than Vince Young type players fail when taking the next step. VY is a freak, Troy is a great player in college.

infantrycak
10-25-2006, 10:15 AM
I see more Troy Smith type players than Vince Young type players fail when taking the next step.

Well since VY is "unique" I guess that is a pretty thick limb you are on.

Maddict5
10-25-2006, 10:39 AM
You would draft a six foot tall QB? Or would you rather have 6'4 VY.

:rolleyes: it a'int basketball

if smith was 5'6 or something it would be a factor... but if hes good enough, hes tall enough

Kaiser Toro
10-25-2006, 10:57 AM
Well since VY is "unique" I guess that is a pretty thick limb you are on.

Whether the limb is thick or thin in the abstract it does seem to go well with the debate. Proof is in the pudding and we all know how subjective proof in the pudding can be.

Huge
10-25-2006, 02:10 PM
and why does it matter if he's a senior and young was a junior? you longwhorn fans are quick to defend young using points that mean nothing. the question is who's a better prospect, young or smith. simple as that.
Young was the 3rd overall pick coming out as a Jr.
Smith will not go that high coming out as a Sr.

Logic says that makes Young the better prospect.

Simple as that.

rmartin65
10-25-2006, 02:12 PM
Vick went number 1 but how many super bowls does he have? Brady went in the 6th round and how many does he have?

People screw up in the draft. Just because someone is drafted higher, it does not mean they will be better.

real
10-25-2006, 02:14 PM
Vick went number 1 but how many super bowls does he have? Brady went in the 6th round and how many does he have?

People screw up in the draft. Just because someone is drafted higher, it does not mean they will be better.

What does that have to do with this debate ?

Huge
10-25-2006, 02:28 PM
People screw up in the draft. Just because someone is drafted higher, it does not mean they will be better.
Read my post again...
Young was the 3rd overall pick coming out as a Jr.
Smith will not go that high coming out as a Sr.

Logic says that makes Young the better prospect.

Simple as that.
We're not talking better player...we're talking about the better prospect.

Emmitt Smith turned out to be a better RB than Blair Thomas. But guess which one was the better RB prospect in that draft? That's right, the one that went #2 overall...Thomas.

Blu
10-25-2006, 02:31 PM
Troy Smith aka the next JErry Jones hand picked QB.... but this one is for real.

rmartin65
10-25-2006, 02:40 PM
Read my post again...

We're not talking better player...we're talking about the better prospect.

Emmitt Smith turned out to be a better RB than Blair Thomas. But guess which one was the better RB prospect in that draft? That's right, the one that went #2 overall...Thomas.

You are right, my bad. I misunderstood your post.

infantrycak
10-25-2006, 02:57 PM
Read my post again...

We're not talking better player...we're talking about the better prospect.

Emmitt Smith turned out to be a better RB than Blair Thomas. But guess which one was the better RB prospect in that draft? That's right, the one that went #2 overall...Thomas.

Sorry, but that is not a truism. What it means is one team thought he was a better prospect--a highly subjective determination and a situation where teams force needs over bpa, i.e. best prospect.

Look just in the last draft with Buffalo taking Donte Whitner. By all reports 31 other teams disagreed with having him that high and that he was a better prostpect than several folks below him. His being taken there doesn't magically make him a better prospect than Cutler, Leinart, etc.

Same frankly for Young. By all reports there was a schism in TN between the coaches and the GM/owner with the latter obviously winning. Young would not have been any worse prospect than he was is the coaches had won and Young had fallen to 10.

BuffSoldier
10-25-2006, 04:24 PM
I'd put good money on it that Smith is faster than Young.

Well thats your money to loose, if you want to bet that Smith has a sub 4.4 fourty and can out run Marlin Jackson who is the current CB for the Colts then ok. Check the 2005 Rose Bowl and see VY blow by Jackson.


And anyone can throw a great deep ball to Ted Ginn, put it up and let him go get it, but to say that his arm is stronger than VYs isnt unbelievable but I doubt it, have you ever seen VY underthrow any of his deep routes 60 yards down field, if anything he puts it almost out of reach.

Errant Hothy
10-25-2006, 04:27 PM
Well thats your money to loose, if you want to bet that Smith has a sub 4.4 fourty and can out run Marlin Jackson who is the current CB for the Colts then ok. Check the 2005 Rose Bowl and see VY blow by Jackson.


And anyone can throw a great deep ball to Ted Ginn, put it up and let him go get it, but to say that his arm is stronger than VYs isnt unbelievable but I doubt it, have you ever seen VY underthrow any of his deep routes 60 yards down field, if anything he puts it almost out of reach.

Did you see any of Smith's TDs from last weeks game? Kid was throwing lasers into the endzone. ANd throwing a good deep ball isn't the same as having a strong arm. The benchmark route for arm strenght is the 10 to 15 yard out. The guys who can routinly make that throw are the one's who are considered to hav eteh big arms.

Ohh, and by the way Limus Sweed isn't that much slower then Ginn, neither is Cosby. In fact a foot race between the three would be pretty interseting.

BuffSoldier
10-25-2006, 04:31 PM
Still no one has answered my question. VY's sophmore year he took the step to being good passer and his Junior year, there wasnt really a more accurate passer in the nation. Alot of people say he threw short routes to his TE, well DC is throwing slants to AJ this year and has the highest completion percentage in the NFL. When he took his shots downfield he was as accurate as anyone.


Like I continue to say, if he threw in a conventional way instead of sidearm, people would have nothing to say.

BuffSoldier
10-25-2006, 04:35 PM
Did you see any of Smith's TDs from last weeks game? Kid was throwing lasers into the endzone. ANd throwing a good deep ball isn't the same as having a strong arm. The benchmark route for arm strenght is the 10 to 15 yard out. The guys who can routinly make that throw are the one's who are considered to hav eteh big arms.

Ohh, and by the way Limus Sweed isn't that much slower then Ginn, neither is Cosby. In fact a foot race between the three would be pretty interseting.

You must have never seen Ted Ginn run before, thats like saying that a race between AJ and Jerome Mathis would be interesting, AJ is fast but kids like Mathis and Ginn are on a totaly different level.

As far as 10 to 15 yard routes go, watch some film from last year, he threw ropes to David Thomas all year, he hit receivers all over the field. Just look at the TD he threw 2 weeks ago against the Redskins, on a line for like 15-20 yards.

TexansSeminole
10-25-2006, 04:38 PM
I'd rather have VY as my QB because he is a proven champion and I like his style more. He also seems to have the intangibles as his former teamates have talked about his leadership qualities.

Troy Smith wouldn't be too far behind but I need to see the conclusion of this season before I can really give him a chance at being someone I would rather have at QB than VY.

Also I wouldn't rather have any QB in the NCAA over VY.

Are you asking if he is a better prospect than what VY was last year?

Errant Hothy
10-25-2006, 05:06 PM
You must have never seen Ted Ginn run before, thats like saying that a race between AJ and Jerome Mathis would be interesting, AJ is fast but kids like Mathis and Ginn are on a totaly different level.

As far as 10 to 15 yard routes go, watch some film from last year, he threw ropes to David Thomas all year, he hit receivers all over the field. Just look at the TD he threw 2 weeks ago against the Redskins, on a line for like 15-20 yards.

I challenge you to find footage of VY throwing a 10 or 15 yard OUT route. I've seen just about all of the snaps VY took as a Longhorn and I cannot recall any.

15 yard curls? YES. 15 yard slants? Sure. 15 yard out routes? Nope, sorry. It's not a throw most college teams use due to the fact that if teh QB doesn't fastball into the receiver it will likely be picked off and run back for a TD.

With all that being said VY can throw the route, he did so well at his pro day, it's just that he never did in a game situation.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-texas032206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

As for Cosby v Sweed v Ginn, Cosby won state titles at 100 (10.46) and 200 (21.31). My money would probally be on Ginn but Cosby and Sweed posses elite speed also.

BuffSoldier
10-25-2006, 05:18 PM
I challenge you to find footage of VY throwing a 10 or 15 yard OUT route. I've seen just about all of the snaps VY took as a Longhorn and I cannot recall any.

15 yard curls? YES. 15 yard slants? Sure. 15 yard out routes? Nope, sorry. It's not a throw most college teams use due to the fact that if teh QB doesn't fastball into the receiver it will likely be picked off and run back for a TD.

With all that being said VY can throw the route, he did so well at his pro day, it's just that he never did in a game situation.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=cr-texas032206&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

As for Cosby v Sweed v Ginn, Cosby won state titles at 100 (10.46) and 200 (21.31). My money would probally be on Ginn but Cosby and Sweed posses elite speed also.

Right, VY didnt throw that route at UT, and as you pointed out he does have the arm strength to throw it. So it still gets back to my original question which nobody has ever answered. Okay, I dont doubt that Smith has great arm strenght, his arm may be stronger than VY's, but if it is then its not a big enough to make a difference, its not like we are comparing Vick and Pennington, they both have extrememly strong arms.

My point is that Smith has been no more accurate than VY was last year. VY throws side arm and people say that he will get passes batted down, well Smith is 6'0", wont his?

If VY had a conventional throwing motion, would we even be having this conversation?

hollywood_texan
10-25-2006, 06:10 PM
Troy Smith looks great at Ohio State, but I don't see how that same thing is going to transfer to the NFL.

He is listed at 6'-1", but I don't think he is that tall. I wouldn't be surprised if he is under 6 foot.

Please_Evolve
10-25-2006, 06:14 PM
Quick note on Pat White..... Isn't he a sophmore ?

Did anyone see that WV team WAX Georgia last year in their bowl game?

Early on in Troy Smith's College tenure wasn't he more of the scrambler type and they rotated QBs?


I think there's a few good quiet Qbs out there I like Brett Meyer out of ISU. Isn't Drew Tate a senoir was well? Chris Leak as well.

As far as whose better.....They'll be about equal if Troy Smith wins a title.

real
10-25-2006, 06:22 PM
Quick note on Pat White..... Isn't he a sophmore ?

RS Sophomore...

As far as whose better.....They'll be about equal if Troy Smith wins a title.

If you are talking about college achievments, it's not even close....

Comparing one players junior season to another's senior season is fair how ?

infantrycak
10-25-2006, 06:33 PM
If you are talking about college achievments, it's not even close....

Comparing one players junior season to another's senior season is fair how ?

So no matter what a player does as a senior it can never be as good or better than someone who left after their junior year. Sorry--bad argument. It may be a factor but it isn't a trump card IMO.

PS--by that standard Matt Leinart clearly had a better college career than Vince Young.

real
10-25-2006, 06:38 PM
PS--by that standard Matt Leinart clearly had a better college career than Vince Young.

LOL...Well Duh....I think Career wise Matt had a way better career than VY...

I think Leinart is a better QB than VY....

real
10-25-2006, 06:42 PM
So no matter what a player does as a senior it can never be as good or better than someone who left after their junior year.

No...Im not saying that...Im just saying that you have to put it into perspective...

VY did more, as a Junior than Smith did as a junior...in the same year...

nothing more...nothing less...

infantrycak
10-25-2006, 06:49 PM
No...Im not saying that...Im just saying that you have to put it into perspective...

VY did more, as a Junior than Smith did as a junior...in the same year...

nothing more...nothing less...

FYI--what I was saying above and here is not specific to the VY or Smith debate.

I have a little bit of a hard time judging it that way just because I figure the guy that leaves early decided to abbreviate his career and decided I am mature enough now and will rest my case on what I have done so far. Certainly something to have in perspective but my thumb wouldn't be too heavy on one side of the scale.

real
10-25-2006, 06:51 PM
I have a little bit of a hard time judging it that way just because I figure the guy that leaves early decided to abbreviate his career and decided I am mature enough now and will rest my case on what I have done so far.

Thats true... if you are talking about overall college legacy...

but IMO, if you are talking about who the "better" player was....hmmm....

Well I guess "better" can be percieved in different ways...So I guess it's moot...

infantrycak
10-25-2006, 06:59 PM
Thats true... if you are talking about overall college legacy...

but IMO, if you are talking about who the "better" player was....hmmm....

Well I guess "better" can be percieved in different ways...So I guess it's moot...

To make the whole thing moot on this specific example--VY and Smith will have had basically equal playing time in the end. VY played in 12 games as a RS freshman so basically played 2.5 seasons which is about what Smith is going to have. Is this just a situation where one guy RS'd and the other did not so the junior vs. senior distinction is pretty silly?

thunderkyss
10-25-2006, 07:03 PM
I'd rather have VY as my QB because he is a proven champion and I like his style more. He also seems to have the intangibles as his former teamates have talked about his leadership qualities.

Troy Smith wouldn't be too far behind but I need to see the conclusion of this season before I can really give him a chance at being someone I would rather have at QB than VY.

Also I wouldn't rather have any QB in the NCAA over VY.

Are you asking if he is a better prospect than what VY was last year?

I'm much more familiar with Vince Young, and right now, I'd much rather have him on my team.

But I wouldn't feel I've got an inferior player, if I had to take TroySmith. I do have concern about his height, and his overall size, but the kid can play football, and is very impressive in his own right.

But I don't think he is near the athlete Vince is, and for me, his size is a big plus.

but that's me.

YoungTexanFan
10-25-2006, 11:26 PM
Well, How about JaMarcus Rusell from LSU. He's bigger than Young and has a better arm than Smith or Young.

TexansSeminole
10-25-2006, 11:38 PM
Well, How about JaMarcus Rusell from LSU. He's bigger than Young and has a better arm than Smith or Young.

He looks like a good prospect, but he doesn't play all 4 quarters yet. The good thing about him is that he seems to be pretty clutch.

thunderkyss
10-26-2006, 08:10 AM
Well, How about JaMarcus Rusell from LSU. He's bigger than Young and has a better arm than Smith or Young.

I'd take Jamarcus Russell over Troy Smith, no doubt.

real
10-26-2006, 08:41 AM
Is this just a situation where one guy RS'd and the other did not so the junior vs. senior distinction is pretty silly?

Not in my opinion....

That's like a 25 yr old freshman being judged on the same level as Colt McCoy....

Maybe it's just me, but I don't really see the comparison...If one player has proven himself to be better in the same year, playing basically the same level of competition.....Im not really sure how the other player can leapfrog or claim to be better than the player that has already proven himself.....Especially if that player was good enough to leave early....

I don't even think it's about opinion at this point....VY was light years ahead of Troy Smith when he left...So how can he all of a sudden be worse than him??? IMO, Troy is going to have to wait until he gets in the NFL to say he's better than VY, because IMO, VY has already proved he was the better college player....Troy hasn't...To me it's as simple as that.....

And by the way....Troy Smith is a RS Senior...
http://ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/smith_troy00.html

kastofsna
10-26-2006, 09:05 AM
Young was the 3rd overall pick coming out as a Jr.
Smith will not go that high coming out as a Sr.

Logic says that makes Young the better prospect.

Simple as that.

no that just makes the titans dumb. ;)

infantrycak
10-26-2006, 09:05 AM
Not in my opinion....

That's like a 25 yr old freshman being judged on the same level as Colt McCoy....

And by the way....Troy Smith is a RS Senior...


The point was at the end of their college careers, regardless of what title you give them, they will have played QB about the same amount--2.5 years. That evens the playing field for saying what did you do in your 2.5 years IMO. I am not making a point at all that Smith is better than VY just that IMO the junior vs. senior argument is weak and really if you have to go there you have already lost the argument.

As for a 25 yr old freshman--last I checked they don't grade adjust for age. You pick the spot you want to be and live with it.

kastofsna
10-26-2006, 09:05 AM
I'd take Jamarcus Russell over Troy Smith, no doubt.
you. are. insane. russell SSUUUCCCKKKSSS.

kastofsna
10-26-2006, 09:06 AM
The good thing about him is that he seems to be pretty clutch.
are you kidding me??

YoungTexanFan
10-26-2006, 09:25 AM
you. are. insane. russell SSUUUCCCKKKSSS.

he doesn't suck. I brought his name up because he is built like a house and has a better arm than Young or Smith. He's not on their level, but on pure physical ability alone he is at least on their level. Unfortunatly, a lot of other factors make a good QB.

real
10-26-2006, 09:34 AM
I am not making a point at all that Smith is better than VY just that IMO the junior vs. senior argument is weak and really if you have to go there you have already lost the argument.


Well it get's kind of nit-picky at this point...

Because VY proved he was better than TS last year....He proved it....

Now you can speculate and guess that Troy will be the better pro, but that's all just an opinion....

All I'm saying is that in the same exact year...playing the same level competition, VY proved he was the best in the country, and it's not really fair to compare on players Senior yr. to anothers Junior yr. and say.."look how much better he is a passer than so and so"....Well wouldn't you expect him to be ? VY is competiting against NFL talent right now, and Troy Smith is playing college comp...I just don't see the argument....

infantrycak
10-26-2006, 09:52 AM
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree as I don't see the junior vs. senior thing as very significant at all--heck the junior could be older than the senior. Really two different issues here which are getting mixed up--who had a better college career and who is a better pro prospect. For the former I give the junior no credit at all--you chose to end your college career, you don't get bonus points for something you intentionally skipped. For the pro-prospect--it really depends on the player and system whether another year would have made them a better pro-prospect. Prime example--Leinart probably benefited very little from his senior year. Judgment calls have to be made all the time comparing prospects--trying to judge across conferences and divisions seems far harder and more important than year--especially where the two players played the same amount.

thunderkyss
10-26-2006, 11:54 AM
you. are. insane. russell SSUUUCCCKKKSSS.

He's looked pretty good to me. I believe if he were going to OhioState, & Troy Smith was going to LSU, you'd think differently.



All I'm saying is that in the same exact year...playing the same level competition, VY proved he was the best in the country,

Didn't Troy Smith have to sit out last season??

But I agree, many people consider Vince to be the best College player ever, I haven't even heard that Troy Smith is the best anything yet. Best QB playing for Ohio State maybe.

In the pro's, I think he's going to compare more to JeffBlake than anyone else. & that's not a bad thing, Blake went from one bad team to another, he could've done some good things, had he gone to better teams.

real
10-26-2006, 11:58 AM
Didn't Troy Smith have to sit out last season??



2005 (Junior): Sat out the opener against Miami (Ohio) ... came off the bench against Texas the following week and made his first start in week three against San Diego State ... was the regular from that point on ... averaged 263 yards per game in total offense ... also averaged 4.5 yards per rushing attempt and was the team's second leading rusher with 611 yards ... ran for a season-high 127 yards against Iowa ... the Buckeyes converted 49 percent of their third down possibilities with him at the controls ... became the first quarterback in OSU annals to run for 500 yards and throw for 2000 yards in the same season ... threw just four interceptions on the year ... had six 200-yard games passing ... threw for two or more touchdowns five times ... his 85-yard TD toss to Santonio Holmes in the Fiesta Bowl is the second longest touchdown pass in Ohio State history.


http://ohiostatebuckeyes.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/mtt/smith_troy00.html

kastofsna
10-26-2006, 12:19 PM
He's looked pretty good to me. I believe if he were going to OhioState, & Troy Smith was going to LSU, you'd think differently.
lol, what is that supposed to mean? LSU is one of the top 5 talented teams in the country. they're right there with OSU. and pretty much everyone agrees they're the most talented team top-to-bottom in the SEC. that's saying a lot.

and i don't care what program they go to. i watch the player. i see a clutch accurate guy who makes great decisions in troy smith; i see a boneheaded guy who is accurate deep but nowhere else on the field in jamarcus russell. who also happens to suck in games that matter.

Huge
10-26-2006, 02:28 PM
Russell is the closest thing you'll see to a Daunte Culpepper clone. Problem is, you're going to take the bad with the good. But I like him though. Good kid that is keeping Ryan Periloser on the bench.

YoungTexanFan
10-26-2006, 02:37 PM
Russell is the closest thing you'll see to a Daunte Culpepper clone. Problem is, you're going to take the bad with the good. But I like him though. Good kid that is keeping Ryan Periloser on the bench.

Yeah, Periloux was supposed to be the second coming of VY out of HS. That hasn't really panned out yet.

kastofsna
10-26-2006, 03:33 PM
periloux just shouldn't have gone to LSU.

YoungTexanFan
10-26-2006, 04:49 PM
periloux just shouldn't have gone to LSU.

No he shouldn't have. I remember calling him stupid when he committed there. It's still stupid.

TexansSeminole
10-26-2006, 06:24 PM
No he shouldn't have. I remember calling him stupid when he committed there. It's still stupid.

Well..I would'nt go that far...they have some good young talent. R.J. Jackson from Houston commited there also...he was a great player in high school, playing all sorts of positions. I think he had like 8 INTs a bunch of rushing and receiving yards. Also did kick returns and punt returns and had a real high number of touchdowns in all categories. He hasn't even played yet there. Seems like they have guys set up to come in one after the other at the skill positions at that school.

Periloux may not play until his junior or senior season, but he could easily do very well for that team. Same goes for R.J. Jackson in my opinion.

real
10-30-2006, 05:39 PM
That should have read the Longhorns proved they were better than the Buckeyes. It takes more than Vince Young or Troy Smith to win OR lose games.

Dude....Are you serious ???

So you are honestly going to try and lead me to believe Troy Smith was anything close to VY last year ?

C'mon...you can do better than that....:rolleyes:

Huge
11-01-2006, 07:38 PM
Troy Smith this year may not be better than Colt McCoy this year, let alone VY last year.

I stole this from another thread from another board that another poster took from a blog. Confused yet? :)

Bob,

Knowing your penchant for ol' Colt McCoy - I had to pass along how his stats and record compare to a prominent Heisman candidate - gotta love stats!

In each of the categories below, compare Quarterback A's passing stats with those of Quarterback B's and try to determine if you know which one is Colt McCoy.

Pass Completions
QB A: 147
QB B: 145

Pass Attempts
QB A: 217
QB B: 214

Pass Yards
QB A: 1705
QB B: 1898

Completion %
QB A: 67.7%
QB B: 67.8%

Longest Completion
QB A: 62
QB B: 58

Passing Touchdowns
QB A: 24
QB B: 22

Interceptions Thrown
QB A: 4
QB B: 2

Most TDs thrown in single game
QB A: 6
QB B: 4

Times Sacked
QB A: 10
QB B: 8

In the above stats Colt McCoy is "Quarterback A" and, by the way, "Quarterback B" is the hands down Heisman favorite Troy Smith. Was it fair to just compare their passing stats? Of course not. The senior Buckeye has that extra dimension that separates himself from other top quarterbacks, including the freshman Lonhghorn. So, for full disclosure, below are rushing stats.

Rush Attempts
QB A: 55
QB B: 42

Rush Yards
QB A: 174
QB B: 169

Most rush yards in single game
QB A: 68
QB B: 54

Longest Rush
QB A: 33
QB B: 34

Rush Touchdowns
QB A: 1
QB B: 1

Once again, McCoy was "Quarterback A" and Smith was "Quarterback B."

I hope this helps explain why Smith will win the Heisman and McCoy will be fortunate to gain any conference honors that aren't preceded by the term "Freshman."

Either that or Colt McCoy needs to insist on being refered to as Heisman Candidate Colt McCoy rather than Redshirt Freshman Colt McCoy.

Now, Im not saying he should be considered, but that does make an argument for him...

Titan "Tack" Fan
11-01-2006, 08:20 PM
Troy Smith has Ted Ginn.....

VY didn't have Ted Ginn.....

rmartin65
11-01-2006, 08:25 PM
Troy Smith has Ted Ginn.....

VY didn't have Ted Ginn.....

Troy Smith plays in an offense somewhat like the NFL....

VY didn't....

Titan "Tack" Fan
11-01-2006, 08:28 PM
Troy Smith plays in an offense somewhat like the NFL....

VY didn't....

What does that have to do with anything? Troy Smith doesn't deserve to hold Vince's jock.

Huge
11-01-2006, 08:57 PM
Troy Smith plays in an offense somewhat like the NFL....

VY didn't....
The Atlanta Falcons sent coaches to Austin to get a few pointers about the zone-read offense. They've used it in their offense this season.

If the Falcons are running an offense similar to what Texas runs and the Falcons are in the NFL, wouldn't that make the offense that Vince Young ran at Texas somewhat like an NFL offense?

mexican_texan
11-01-2006, 09:02 PM
VY had Dave Thomas, the most underrated reciever last year. He now plays TE for the Patriots. He was Mr. Reliable.

Napa Auto Parts
11-01-2006, 11:35 PM
Troy Smith is having and OK season but i dont think we have seen him take over a football game like VY.

Napa Auto Parts
11-02-2006, 01:30 AM
I haven't seen VY take over a football game, either. Every game of VY's I have seen his team's defense had to play as well.

Your right i was just joking VY is a joke :stirpot: VY never did Anything meaningfull in College never took over a game the Defense was the QB all along.

kastofsna
11-02-2006, 08:41 AM
Troy Smith has Ted Ginn.....

VY didn't have Ted Ginn.....
so?

Huge
11-02-2006, 09:41 AM
I haven't seen VY take over a football game, either. Every game of VY's I have seen his team's defense had to play as well.
Are you saying all players are equal because everybody plays with teammates that contribute towards winning the game as well?

real
11-02-2006, 09:50 AM
I haven't seen VY take over a football game, either. Every game of VY's I have seen his team's defense had to play as well.

Are you talking about college??? or Pros??? or Both???

real
11-02-2006, 09:58 AM
Troy Smith this year may not be better than Colt McCoy this year, let alone VY last year.


Bob,

Knowing your penchant for ol' Colt McCoy - I had to pass along how his stats and record compare to a prominent Heisman candidate - gotta love stats!

In each of the categories below, compare Quarterback A's passing stats with those of Quarterback B's and try to determine if you know which one is Colt McCoy.

Pass Completions
QB A: 147
QB B: 145

Pass Attempts
QB A: 217
QB B: 214

Pass Yards
QB A: 1705
QB B: 1898

Completion %
QB A: 67.7%
QB B: 67.8%

Longest Completion
QB A: 62
QB B: 58

Passing Touchdowns
QB A: 24
QB B: 22

Interceptions Thrown
QB A: 4
QB B: 2

Most TDs thrown in single game
QB A: 6
QB B: 4

Times Sacked
QB A: 10
QB B: 8

In the above stats Colt McCoy is "Quarterback A" and, by the way, "Quarterback B" is the hands down Heisman favorite Troy Smith. Was it fair to just compare their passing stats? Of course not. The senior Buckeye has that extra dimension that separates himself from other top quarterbacks, including the freshman Lonhghorn. So, for full disclosure, below are rushing stats.

Rush Attempts
QB A: 55
QB B: 42

Rush Yards
QB A: 174
QB B: 169

Most rush yards in single game
QB A: 68
QB B: 54

Longest Rush
QB A: 33
QB B: 34

Rush Touchdowns
QB A: 1
QB B: 1

Once again, McCoy was "Quarterback A" and Smith was "Quarterback B."

I hope this helps explain why Smith will win the Heisman and McCoy will be fortunate to gain any conference honors that aren't preceded by the term "Freshman."

Either that or Colt McCoy needs to insist on being refered to as Heisman Candidate Colt McCoy rather than Redshirt Freshman Colt McCoy.

Now, Im not saying he should be considered, but that does make an argument for him...


I stole this from another thread from another board that another poster took from a blog. Confused yet? :)


I just had to re-post this....:ohsnap:

infantrycak
11-02-2006, 11:53 PM
The implication here is obvious. It is that Vince Young won a game single-handedly. This is patently false and demeaning to the contributions of the other players and coaches of his team. I would also like to note that it is VY's fans and not VY that makes these kind of ridiculous statements. That is one thing I must say about VY. He has always presented himself in a very humble way in interviews.

Excellent post. VY is probably above the adoration exaggeration many of his fans give him and would recognize simple things like the play stopping USC's last drive was just as important to the win as his last run. Who made that tackle?--must have been VY because he won the game.

YoungTexanFan
11-02-2006, 11:53 PM
That is one thing I must say about VY. He has always presented himself in a very humble way in interviews.

Thats not humility, thats stupidity.

However, he's not ignorant. He choses not to speak about himself when he isn't able to properly formulate sentences.

real
11-03-2006, 09:18 AM
No, I'm not saying that all players are equal, but I find it very irritating to totally discount an entire unit's performance by the assertion that a single player " took over" a game. The implication here is obvious. It is that Vince Young won a game single-handedly. This is patently false and demeaning to the contributions of the other players and coaches of his team. I would also like to note that it is VY's fans and not VY that makes these kind of ridiculous statements. That is one thing I must say about VY. He has always presented himself in a very humble way in interviews.

I think it's the exact opposite....

I have not seen one single post where someone has said that VY won that game "all by himself"...but I have seen several post where VY detractors have tried to diminish what he did....Just because people choose to aknowledge VY's effort doesn't mean they don't recognize the efforts of the whole team...

That was one of the single greatest individual performances by a player in college football history....It is comments like yours that detract away from that....Again....I haven't seen ONE SINGLE post where someone has said he did it all by himself....have you ?

No, I'm not saying that all players are equal, but I find it very irritating to totally discount an entire unit's performance by the assertion that a single player " took over" a game. The implication here is obvious. It is that Vince Young won a game single-handedly.

obvious???

That's all in your head buddy.....

VY DID take over the game...how you get that he won it by himself I'm clueless???

Just because someone doesn't point out what every individual player did or didn't do doesn't mean that they think he did it "all by himslef"....

Question: Who do people recognize and talk about when they think about the Patriots Super Bowl wins??????????????????????????????................ .......................TB and AV.........Why????..........because of last minute drives.....and last minute field goals......and AV is a frickin' kicker......

Errant Hothy
11-03-2006, 09:28 AM
As for the stats compating Colt to Troy Smith...so what, both are going to have a better year passing the ball then VY ever did.

Huge
11-03-2006, 09:40 AM
No, I'm not saying that all players are equal, but I find it very irritating to totally discount an entire unit's performance by the assertion that a single player " took over" a game. The implication here is obvious. It is that Vince Young won a game single-handedly. This is patently false and demeaning to the contributions of the other players and coaches of his team. I would also like to note that it is VY's fans and not VY that makes these kind of ridiculous statements. That is one thing I must say about VY. He has always presented himself in a very humble way in interviews.
Excellent post. VY is probably above the adoration exaggeration many of his fans give him and would recognize simple things like the play stopping USC's last drive was just as important to the win as his last run. Who made that tackle?--must have been VY because he won the game.
As it's been pointed out, nobody has said VY won the game all by himself. "Taking over a game" is a figure of speech. Even at his best, Michael Jordan never won a game "single-handedly" because he wasn't going to play defense against 5 opposing players at the other end of the court. But are you willing to admit that at times he elevated his game (another figure of speech) to where it was obvious that he was playing at a level much higher than everybody else on the court?

This is what VY did on a few occasions during his collegiate career. Most notably, in the most important game of this past season. If you were unable to recognize that, you either lack the ability to do so or you're biased and are unwilling to admit to it.

And as of yet, Troy Smith has not had a game(s) similar to what Young did during his career in college. Or maybe I'm just lacking the ability to recognize it or I'm biased against Smith (I'm not) and I just haven't noticed. But if anybody could point out such a performance by Smith, I'd like to see it.

Huge
11-03-2006, 09:42 AM
As for the stats compating Colt to Troy Smith...so what, both are going to have a better year passing the ball then VY ever did.
Kliff Kingsbury
Andre Ware
David Klingler
Sonny Combie
BJ Symons

All had better years passing the ball than VY ever did.

See where I'm going with this?

infantrycak
11-03-2006, 10:00 AM
As it's been pointed out, nobody has said VY won the game all by himself.

I have heard numerous people make such statements.

But are you willing to admit that at times he elevated his game (another figure of speech) to where it was obvious that he was playing at a level much higher than everybody else on the court?

Nothing to admit (except I have a problem with your phrasing)--I have said several times VY's performance in the Rose Bowl was one of the best individual performances of all time in college ball. I do have a problem with your phrasing and with they way people define things in saying it was much higher than everybody else. Leinart for instance had a fantastic game as well--his game didn't get worse because Lendale White got stopped and on the flip side VY's game would not have been lessor of White had not been stopped. Neither of them played a role on the play which undoubtedly was pivotal for the game--White's 4th down attempt.

real
11-03-2006, 10:05 AM
I have said several times VY's performance in the Rose Bowl was one of the best individual performances of all time in college ball.

That's all that matters

Neither of them was on the field for a play which undoubtedly was pivotal for the game.

Well, actually they were....Had they gotten that yard on 4th down, that would have pretty much sealed the deal....

They didn't....

It wasn't really about their overall performance at that point...It was about making the plays when they counted...VY(and his teamates--just throwing that in for your satisfaction) did...

bah007
11-03-2006, 10:05 AM
Teams win championships.

Texas won.

VY was the best player on the winning team & the MVP but TEXAS won the game.

real
11-03-2006, 10:07 AM
Teams win championships.

Texas won.

VY was the best player on the winning team & the MVP but TEXAS won the game.

I just think it's odd that I never hear this discussion come up, when people talk about Tom Brady's late game heroics.....

Tom Brady was the face of those superbowls....VY was the face of that championship...period...

bah007
11-03-2006, 10:10 AM
Answer me this question & you will have your answer to this thread.

Vince Young is considered to be one of the best college QBs of all time (ESPN said this & they hate Texas).

He became the only player in the history of football to have 1000 rushing & 3000 passing in the same season.

VY was the #3 pick in the NFL Draft. Do you even think Smith will be a first rounder? I dont.
If you seriously think that Troy Smith will ever be considered as one of the greatest of all time then your answer is yes. If not then...

infantrycak
11-03-2006, 10:11 AM
I just think it's odd that I never hear this discussion come up, when people talk about Tom Brady's late game heroics.....

Tom Brady was the face of those superbowls....VY was the face of that championship...period...

Then you don't listen when you aren't defending a pet player. It is always a team game.

real
11-03-2006, 10:13 AM
Then you don't listen when you aren't defending a pet player. It is always a team game.

You're right...I do like VY....

And I think you guys are more or less stating the obvious when you say "it's a team game"....well duh....

Again...I haven't seen anyone saying that VY won the game all by his lonesome...

Maybe you have....

although I just can't imagine someone thinking he could go out there and pass the ball to himself, and block for himself....

When people say he took the game over...or HE won the game....don't take it so litteral...

thunderkyss
11-03-2006, 10:38 AM
Don't know if this has been covered yet, but do you think Troy Smith will be better than Jay Cutler??

thunderkyss
11-03-2006, 10:41 AM
Nothing to admit (except I have a problem with your phrasing)--I have said several times VY's performance in the Rose Bowl was one of the best individual performances of all time in college ball. I do have a problem with your phrasing and with they way people define things in saying it was much higher than everybody else. Leinart for instance had a fantastic game as well--his game didn't get worse because Lendale White got stopped and on the flip side VY's game would not have been lessor of White had not been stopped. Neither of them played a role on the play which undoubtedly was pivotal for the game--White's 4th down attempt.

would you ever characterize Lienart's performance as "one of the best individual performances of all time in college ball." ??

I wouldn't. He had a great game. But I can think of many college atheletes that have had better games at one time or another during their college careers, & I don't watch a lot of college football.

Huge
11-03-2006, 11:10 AM
I have heard numerous people make such statements.
Where has anybody, on this thread, said Vince has won games all by himself?
Nothing to admit (except I have a problem with your phrasing)--I have said several times VY's performance in the Rose Bowl was one of the best individual performances of all time in college ball. I do have a problem with your phrasing and with they way people define things in saying it was much higher than everybody else. Leinart for instance had a fantastic game as well--his game didn't get worse because Lendale White got stopped and on the flip side VY's game would not have been lessor of White had not been stopped. Neither of them played a role on the play which undoubtedly was pivotal for the game--White's 4th down attempt.
Leinart did have a fantastic game that night (depsite his INT). But even the most objectionable view is not going to remember or think that he had a better night than Young. So as great as Leinart was that night, Young was still better. That is what people are going to remember and that is why people believe Young was a better player in college then than what Smith is now. Unless of course Smith has a similar game against Michigan or in the title game. Which isn't impossible but it'd be a feat to watch.

Texans Horror
11-03-2006, 02:11 PM
This time last year I think all the haters were questioning VY's ability to compete because of his passing ability. Now the question seems to be if he was Texas last year. The fact that the Big XII is more competitive this year and yet the Horns are still on top shows the ability of the team. This being a team sport, I'd never agree that VY won the game. Texas won it. Only commentators try to pin a win or loss on one player. Of course, we should be used to this in Houston, where every win seems to be hinged on David Carr...

Troy Smith and VY are two different QBs with two different styles. They aren't comparable. I will say this: I think Vince was the best quarterback coming out of college football last year, and I think Troy Smith is the best one this year, IMO.

Errant Hothy
11-03-2006, 04:56 PM
would you ever characterize Lienart's performance as "one of the best individual performances of all time in college ball." ??

I wouldn't. He had a great game. But I can think of many college atheletes that have had better games at one time or another during their college careers, & I don't watch a lot of college football.

Yes I would, and he still got beat. Leinart in the third quater may have played the best quater of football by any QB ever; dude was massivly en fuego.

Lost in teh VY hype was just how good UT's D was last year.

kastofsna
11-03-2006, 05:00 PM
yeah, leinart was ridiculous in the 3rd quarter. even more amazing considering how poorly he played at the end of the first half, and with any other QB they'd take the ball out his hands and just hand it off to bush and white to save him. but nope, they let him take control of the game.

Huge
11-04-2006, 12:42 AM
Yes, it is a figure of speech that I understood to mean becoming an unstoppable force. In other words at the point someone takes over a game the outcome of the game is certain since he can't be stopped, which in turn means that he no longer needs anyone else's contributions to win, and that is where it becomes single-handed.
Could you give us an example of somebody you witnessed taking over a game (by your own translation of the phrase)?

He didn't say on this thread, and you imply that I jump to conclusions. You need to read before you type.
Or maybe he's not taking into consideration what their understanding of the phrase might mean. Sound familiar? http://www.nfl-fans.com/style_emoticons/default/floggin.gif

Huge
01-09-2007, 07:05 AM
Heh...well?

Heywood
01-09-2007, 07:20 AM
Thats not humility, thats stupidity.

However, he's not ignorant. He choses not to speak about himself when he isn't able to properly formulate sentences.

thank god for the "ignore user" feature, you despicable hack.

king_jamason
01-09-2007, 07:47 AM
Could Troy Smith be better then VY?

What? If by "better" do you mean, "who's mechanics are more screwed-up."

In that case I would have to say Troy Smith.

Listen! I like to watch what a scrambling qb can do. A Vick like QB is kinda of fun. They "Vick, Smith, Young" remind me of Randall Cunningham.

But the only difference is that Randall could throw the ball. He took pride in his ability to throw the ball.

Again not to take anything away from a "scrambling qb". But I see this as a very bad trend in the NFL. Before you know it we are going to more quarterbacks who's only asset is speed.

Sounds like professional high school football. Fun every now and then.

But this is not professional football.

Huge
01-09-2007, 08:08 AM
For his career, Randall Cunningham completed 56.6% of his passes. During his rookie season, Vince Young completed 51.5%.

I'm pretty comfortable in predicting that Young will at least match Cunningham's 56.6 before his career is over.

real
01-09-2007, 08:27 AM
Could Troy Smith be better then VY?

Abso-freakin-lutely....

El Amigo Invisible
01-09-2007, 10:24 AM
Could Troy Smith be better then VY?

Abso-freakin-lutely....

Did you see the way the Florida D - line manhandled Troy????
I think VY would have had a better game and probably would have won!:stirpot:

kastofsna
01-09-2007, 10:41 AM
young never faced a defense like that in college. he would've played similiar to how he did against the patriots. which is...bad.

jerek
01-09-2007, 10:55 AM
young never faced a defense like that in college. he would've played similiar to how he did against the patriots. which is...bad.

That may be somewhat true but Troy Smith looked like turd yesterday. I think his draft stock is still dropping fifteen hours later ...

I have not seen one single post where someone has said that VY won that game "all by himself"...

I know this was awhile ago ... but have you posted here before?

real
01-09-2007, 10:55 AM
young never faced a defense like that in college. he would've played similiar to how he did against the patriots. which is...bad.

So now the Patriots defense = Florida's defense ????

I don't know if VY played a defense as fast(assuming that's what you meant) as Florida's defense in college, but he didn't play a bunch of slouches either....He did play well against Michigan his Sophmore year in the rose bowl...he did play well against Ohio State's defense last year....

Oh yeah....While Troy Smith has been spending this past year on campus...VY went 8-3 as a starter in his rookie season in the NFL....

Yeah I can totally see how VY would have been shut down by that defense....

El Amigo Invisible
01-09-2007, 11:44 AM
So now the Patriots defense = Florida's defense ????

I don't know if VY played a defense as fast(assuming that's what you meant) as Florida's defense in college, but he didn't play a bunch of slouches either....He did play well against Michigan his Sophmore year in the rose bowl...he did play well against Ohio State's defense last year....

Oh yeah....While Troy Smith has been spending this past year on campus...VY went 8-3 as a starter in his rookie season in the NFL....

Yeah I can totally see how VY would have been shut down by that defense....

I think he covered all of his bases. Nice Post!

real
01-09-2007, 11:53 AM
I know this was awhile ago ... but have you posted here before?

In this thread ? On this board ?

Im confused...:um:

Chance_C
01-09-2007, 11:55 AM
no way in he.....

kastofsna
01-09-2007, 12:01 PM
So now the Patriots defense = Florida's defense ????

I don't know if VY played a defense as fast(assuming that's what you meant) as Florida's defense in college, but he didn't play a bunch of slouches either....He did play well against Michigan his Sophmore year in the rose bowl...he did play well against Ohio State's defense last year....

Oh yeah....While Troy Smith has been spending this past year on campus...VY went 8-3 as a starter in his rookie season in the NFL....

Yeah I can totally see how VY would have been shut down by that defense....
no, the pats defense = really good, much like the gators. and we're seeing just how good those big 10 defenses really are. especially michigan in '04, they weren't really good at all.

real
01-09-2007, 12:12 PM
no, the pats defense = really good, much like the gators. and we're seeing just how good those big 10 defenses really are. especially michigan in '04, they weren't really good at all.

IMHO, I don't think there was a college defense this past year or the past three years that could have shut down VY in his junior year, much less had he returned for his senior yr....

The Dream
01-09-2007, 12:13 PM
no.....and I would've said no before last night.......VY's size is just unreal.

Dr. Toro
01-09-2007, 12:25 PM
young never faced a defense like that in college. he would've played similiar to how he did against the patriots. which is...bad.

Pitcock, Youbouty, Whitner, Hawk, Carpenter, and a senior laden defensive unit on the road. That OSU unit was more similar to NE than Florida.

mexican_texan
01-09-2007, 12:29 PM
Smith is better at the college level, but I don't see his skills translating to the NFL like VY's.

The last good defense I remember VY playing was OU in 04 or 05, which just happened to be his last loss at UT.

Second Honeymoon
01-09-2007, 12:34 PM
Why is this even a thread? Troy Smith can't even hold Vince Young's jockstrap. Smith is an undersized QB that absolutely choked in the biggest game of his life. We all know what Vince Young did in the biggest game of his life. As for saying that VY didn't face any defences as good as Florida, that is just insane and obvious playa hating.

Get over it. Troy Smith is a college QB. VY is a QB...period. Smith will be lucky to become a starter in the NFL after what I saw last night. If he thought those pass rushes were good then just wait till he gets to the NFL.

VY > TS....and its not even close

Snapple
01-09-2007, 12:42 PM
You guys saying Vince Young never played a tough defense, do you not remember him going into the Horseshoe and leading a comeback win over one of the best teams and best defenses in the country? The 2005 Ohio State defense sent practically their whole unit into the NFL.

mexican_texan
01-09-2007, 12:48 PM
VY isn't a great QB. He's a great leader and runner, but not a great QB.

real
01-09-2007, 12:50 PM
VY isn't a great QB. He's a great leader and runner, but not a great QB.

What????


LMAO....I think this is the funniest thing I have read today....

mexican_texan
01-09-2007, 12:51 PM
Are you saying he's a great QB?

real
01-09-2007, 12:54 PM
Are you saying he's a great QB?

Why does it matter how he wins ? Why does he have to fit your mold of being a great passer to be considered a great QB ?

Question: If VY never has gaudy passing numbers, and wins games similar to how he won games this year, leads his team to many play-off appearances, and maybe a superbowl or two....will he still not be a grat QB because he didn't air it out ?

kastofsna
01-09-2007, 01:04 PM
sort of a paradoxial question. he's not going to win super bowls if he can't throw the ball or read a defense.

mexican_texan
01-09-2007, 01:06 PM
Why does it matter how he wins ? Why does he have to fit your mold of being a great passer to be considered a great QB ?

Question: If VY never has gaudy passing numbers, and wins games similar to how he won games this year, leads his team to many play-off appearances, and maybe a superbowl or two....will he still not be a grat QB because he didn't air it out ?
When he can lead a team to a Super Bowl, that's great leadership.

old football fan
01-09-2007, 01:10 PM
Smith as good as Young? I don't think so! And I'm not a fan of Young's, but he is a very good player with alot of upside. I will give credit where credit is due.

jerek
01-09-2007, 01:11 PM
In this thread ? On this board ?

Im confused...:um:

You said no one on this board has ever said that VY won a game all by himself. I lost count back before the Rose Bowl ... let alone after.

Errant Hothy
01-09-2007, 01:13 PM
As for saying that VY didn't face any defences as good as Florida, that is just insane and obvious playa hating.


Name me a singloe defense that VY palyed against that was as good/athletic as the Florida D.

There are not very many teams outside of the SEC that can match them for athletic play, espically from at the D-line spots.

Smith did nothing to help himself last night, and I'm now pretty sure we won't be picked in Round 1. As for who might be better, I'm still not sure. Yes VY went 8-3 as a started but it's not like he played great games from teh QB spot (ie good passing numbers, good TD/INT ratio, etc. NOT rushing yards; becasue if VY keeps this up (running all teh time) he's going ot get hurt.)

Titan "Tack" Fan
01-09-2007, 01:15 PM
Troy Smith doesn't deserve to hold Vince's jock. VY is way better.

Second Honeymoon
01-09-2007, 01:18 PM
Smith as good as Young? I don't think so! And I'm not a fan of Young's, but he is a very good player with alot of upside. I will give credit where credit is due.

not surprising coming from one of the wise men on the board (i left out the word 'old')

is VY great yet? no. but he is already good and has already made huge leaps and bounds that normally take QBs years to make.

Second Honeymoon
01-09-2007, 01:21 PM
Name me a singloe defense that VY palyed against that was as good/athletic as the Florida D.

There are not very many teams outside of the SEC that can match them for athletic play, espically from at the D-line spots.

Smith did nothing to help himself last night, and I'm now pretty sure we won't be picked in Round 1. As for who might be better, I'm still not sure. Yes VY went 8-3 as a started but it's not like he played great games from teh QB spot (ie good passing numbers, good TD/INT ratio, etc. NOT rushing yards; becasue if VY keeps this up (running all teh time) he's going ot get hurt.)

OU's defense, OSU's defense, and Michigan's defense. Good enough for you? The level of VY hatred around here is just sickening.

Florida played a good game last night and had a chip on their shoulder. It was obvious that they have lots of talent too, but to say that VY never faced a defense as good is just ludicrous and dollars to donuts you are an Aggie or a UT hater.

Dr. Toro
01-09-2007, 01:27 PM
Name me a singloe defense that VY palyed against that was as good/athletic as the Florida D.

There are not very many teams outside of the SEC that can match them for athletic play, espically from at the D-line spots.

Smith did nothing to help himself last night, and I'm now pretty sure we won't be picked in Round 1. As for who might be better, I'm still not sure. Yes VY went 8-3 as a started but it's not like he played great games from teh QB spot (ie good passing numbers, good TD/INT ratio, etc. NOT rushing yards; becasue if VY keeps this up (running all teh time) he's going ot get hurt.)

It's the same song and dance from yall... after the Rose Bowl, he's a project and won't be able to run. After a ROY campaign and turning around a franchise, he'll get hurt and he can't pass. His passing stats are pretty comparable to every rookie passer and they were superlative in college. Yall said he was a project and he is a Pro-Bowl alternate.

Yall said he couldn't run in the NFL and he averaged 6.7 ypc and scored 7 TDs. Yall said he didn't have NFL speed and he had 5 TD runs of 19yds or longer. His running ability was fantastic and late game heroics were pretty much unmatched in the league this year. I count 3 games (HOU, Buff, and NYG) that he took over when it mattered and flat out won. Now you're saying he didn't face anybody in college, c'mon now how many #1 picks need to be on a defense to be good, 10? He acquitted himself pretty well against BAL and BUF. But Florida would have just ended his world.

Yall have been consistently wrong on Young and it looks like you'll continue to be. At this point, I think people are either stubborn or it's just really personal.

real
01-09-2007, 01:30 PM
You said no one on this board has ever said that VY won a game all by himself. I lost count back before the Rose Bowl ... let alone after.

Oh...LOL....

I was just talking about members in that particular area of the thread where the back and forth discussion was going on at the time....

old football fan
01-09-2007, 01:32 PM
I think T. Smith would compare to a Kordale Stewart more than a VY. Next year will be a big test for VY as Def, Coor. will know more about him and how to defend against him. I wouldn't be surprised if Smith is switched to another position in the NFL. I'm only OLD in years on this earth, but young in mind and body.:mario:

real
01-09-2007, 01:35 PM
sort of a paradoxial question. he's not going to win super bowls if he can't throw the ball or read a defense.

I don't know what you mean by "can't"....

If your definition of "can't" is his throwing numbers this year....then my response is, his "can't" was good enough to go 8-3 as a rookie....

If by "can't" you mean that he will become a worse passer....then yeah...I might agree with you although anything is possible....

But if by "can't" you mean that he'll get better every year as a passer, as is expected of him, then I'd have to say your defenition of "can't" is a little skewed because he already showed he "can" pass good enough to win, so if next year he "couldn't" or "can't" throw good enough, that'd mean he has regressed...which I wouldn't hold my breath for....

real
01-09-2007, 01:41 PM
When he can lead a team to a Super Bowl, that's great leadership.

Leadership ?

you're questioning his leadership ?

How did we get here?

I thought you said he wasn't a great QB...because he doesn't throw like you want him to....And my response was something to the affect of: Who cares how he's doing it, as long as he's doing it?

If I throw a great frisbee with my foot instead of my hand does that mean I'm not a great frisbee thrower because I do it in an unconventional way?

I could understand if you say he's not a great passer...but leadership ?

travfrancis
01-09-2007, 01:49 PM
This thread sucks.

Huge
01-09-2007, 02:05 PM
young never faced a defense like that in college. he would've played similiar to how he did against the patriots. which is...bad.

As a Jr., Young played against an Ohio State defense, in Columbus, that had:
3 first round draft picks
2 third round draft picks
2 fourth round draft picks

Vernon Gohlston, Quinn Pitcock and David Patterson were also a part of that defense.

Your prediction of how he would've played similarly against a similar defense...

18/29, 270 yards, 2 TDs, 2 INTs
20 rushes, 76 yards

...is a bit off.

Just because Vince made them look like an average defense does not mean they were one.

Name me a singloe defense that VY palyed against that was as good/athletic as the Florida D.
Covered.

Smith did nothing to help himself last night, and I'm now pretty sure we won't be picked in Round 1. As for who might be better, I'm still not sure. Yes VY went 8-3 as a started but it's not like he played great games from teh QB spot (ie good passing numbers, good TD/INT ratio, etc. NOT rushing yards; becasue if VY keeps this up (running all teh time) he's going ot get hurt.)
I must've missed it. What position was Vince playing while the Titans were winning 6 straight?

ThaShark316
01-09-2007, 02:46 PM
LOL @ Troy Ward being in VY's league...I mean Troy Ware...I think I got it right.

STEEL BLUE TEXANS
01-09-2007, 02:51 PM
I'm pretty sure Vince Young could have gotten more than 6 yards of total offense against the Gator's defense.

Errant Hothy
01-09-2007, 03:18 PM
OU's defense, OSU's defense, and Michigan's defense. Good enough for you? The level of VY hatred around here is just sickening.

Florida played a good game last night and had a chip on their shoulder. It was obvious that they have lots of talent too, but to say that VY never faced a defense as good is just ludicrous and dollars to donuts you are an Aggie or a UT hater.

OU is a maybe, but OSU's and Michigan's D are nowhere near as fast as most of those in the SEC, inluding Florida. Facts are facts, the SEC is teh best conference in the land, and tends to have some of the athletic teams around. Hell the Defensive players we're considering for the Texans to pick at 8 are mostly from the SEC, as is the current DROY, and our best DB. UT's best D (last years) was conceived by, the players were recruited to run, and executed by Auburn's former DC.

I'll take the dollar's seeing I grew up in UT household, and while I went to Tech, I'vealways pulled for UT, except when teh play Tech. And with that in mind I take being compared to an Aggie as an insult (no offense intended to the Aggie's on this board)

I must've missed it. What position was Vince playing while the Titans were winning 6 straight?

I must have missed it too, cause I could have sworn VY's QB rating for the year was under 70 (infact it was 66.7) I could have sworn he threw more INTs then TDs, and completed just over 50% of his passes. Maybe it's a good thing VY isn't teh QB here casue based off the stats half the message board would be screaming we needed a new QB

AS an aside: I like VY, I've admitted I was wrong about him, but just as some acuse people of being haters and not seeing beyond said hatred what gets me going are those who can't see beyond their man-crushes on VY. He was a god at UT, which means alot of people who went ot UT and many more who didn't view him the same way; but he isn't perfect. There are faults in his game, his current head coach and OC both wanted another QB then VY before the draft, one they thought would make a better pro. Could they have been wrong? Sure, but for people to still act like VY's game has no faults and the start revising history to suite their VY love then I tend to get a bit...testy. No offense is intended by any of this.

real
01-09-2007, 03:20 PM
Since when did fast = good ?

Errant Hothy
01-09-2007, 03:26 PM
Since when did fast = good ?


I don't know when did the phrase "Speed kills" become popular?

Edit: See Julius Peppers, Taylor, Ware, Merriamn, etc. all fast pass rushers who are considered good, maybe even the best at their positions.

threetoedpete
01-09-2007, 03:31 PM
That may be somewhat true but Troy Smith looked like turd yesterday. I think his draft stock is still dropping fifteen hours later ...



I know this was awhile ago ... but have you posted here before?

I have no dog in this fight. I think Troy "Tatter Tot" Smith looked pretty ordinary with Ginn Jr. standing on the sideline in a soft cast. There's you're ESPN "Green Room Guy " folks. I think Kubiack could win with him. He wants to go tramping for the next Fran Takington, and the guy is there with the nineth pick of the third round, I would have no objections. Might be a bit high...but cheap Sage insurance.

Dr. Toro
01-09-2007, 03:36 PM
I must have missed it too, cause I could have sworn VY's QB rating for the year was under 70 (infact it was 66.7) I could have sworn he threw more INTs then TDs, and completed just over 50% of his passes. Maybe it's a good thing VY isn't teh QB here casue based off the stats half the message board would be screaming we needed a new QB

The passing stats that you and others always cite are to BE EXPECTED from a rookie QB. What isn't to be expected is the winning, late game heroics, leadership, and rushing stats. If we judged NFL passers by their rookie QB rating, then Donovan McNabb and Peyton Manning wouldn't look very good either. Geez, he's not a finished product, nor is any rookie QB, and he's WAY ahead of even the most optimistic predictions. Why people continue to write the guy off or sell him short is beyond me.

real
01-09-2007, 03:36 PM
I don't know when did the phrase "Speed kills" become popular?

Edit: See Julius Peppers, Taylor, Ware, Merriamn, etc. all fast pass rushers who are considered good, maybe even the best at their positions.


ummmm....ok??

I guess I'll ask the question again in a different way...



When did fast equal good ?

Errant Hothy
01-09-2007, 03:44 PM
ummmm....ok??

I guess I'll ask the question again in a different way...



When did fast equal good ?

Fast equals good when you can run around the guy assigned to block you and get a clean shot at the ball. Fast equals good when your first step puts you even the opposing tackle, before he is even out of his stance. Fast equals good when you bet backside blockers to teh ball.

Strong can also equal good, but speed usually can negate strength. See the perfromance of Michigan's DE against the OSU line versuses the performance of the Florida DEs agaisnt eh same O-line. Who had teh better game? See the quickness of UT's D-line last year getting position/leverage on the USC O-line on teh 4th and 2 play. (yes that was probalbly a combination of speed and strength, but if the UT D line hadn't gotten off teh line so quickly they would never have been able to stop Lendale White.)

Is there more to it then this, sure noting in life is simple but the quicker (or more athletic team) usually wins in college football.

real
01-09-2007, 03:48 PM
Is there more to it then this, sure noting in life is simple but the quicker (or more athletic team) usually wins in college football.

No....

The "better" team usually wins...By your definiton, when colleges recruit, all they should do is watch guys run 40's....

Florida had a fast defense, but they weren't better than Ohio States defense from a year ago...

I can't believe this is even a discussion...

kastofsna
01-09-2007, 03:56 PM
UF is certainly far faster than OSU's defense last year.

Errant Hothy
01-09-2007, 03:59 PM
No....

The "better" team usually wins...By your definiton, when colleges recruit, all they should do is watch guys run 40's....

Florida had a fast defense, but they weren't better than Ohio States defense from a year ago...

I can't believe this is even a discussion...

Yeah there is no way Florida's 06 D could be better then OSU's 05 D. I mean they only gave up less points, and less yards a game. And we certainly shouldn't count that they played in the tougher conference. Nope wouldn't want to do that. And I dare not bring up that Florida caused more turnovers then the vaunted 05 OSU D.

Face it people you all bought into the OSU hype this year, just like most of teh nation bought into the USC hype last year.

As for 40 times, what do you think the combine is; and surely who don't think the 40 time can make or break a recruit's changes of getting a scholarship to a big time school.

mexican_texan
01-09-2007, 04:18 PM
Leadership ?

you're questioning his leadership ?

How did we get here?

I thought you said he wasn't a great QB...because he doesn't throw like you want him to....And my response was something to the affect of: Who cares how he's doing it, as long as he's doing it?

If I throw a great frisbee with my foot instead of my hand does that mean I'm not a great frisbee thrower because I do it in an unconventional way?

I could understand if you say he's not a great passer...but leadership ?
Did you even read my original post? Or did you just jump at me saying he's not a great QB?

Battle Red Flash
01-09-2007, 04:43 PM
Could Smith be better than V?

No.

and I'm an OSU fan.

real
01-09-2007, 04:43 PM
Did you even read my original post? Or did you just jump at me saying he's not a great QB?

uuuhhh....yes, sir I sure did

Smith is better at the college level, but I don't see his skills translating to the NFL like VY's.

The last good defense I remember VY playing was OU in 04 or 05, which just happened to be his last loss at UT.

Then you followed it up with this:

VY isn't a great QB. He's a great leader and runner, but not a great QB.

Did I miss something ?

real
01-09-2007, 04:45 PM
Yeah there is no way Florida's 06 D could be better then OSU's 05 D. I mean they only gave up less points, and less yards a game. And we certainly shouldn't count that they played in the tougher conference. Nope wouldn't want to do that. And I dare not bring up that Florida caused more turnovers then the vaunted 05 OSU D.

Face it people you all bought into the OSU hype this year, just like most of teh nation bought into the USC hype last year.

As for 40 times, what do you think the combine is; and surely who don't think the 40 time can make or break a recruit's changes of getting a scholarship to a big time school.

I'm sorry....I didn't know so much stock was put into speed....



My bad....

TexanFanInCC
01-09-2007, 04:49 PM
in all fairness to troy smith, you cant completely blame his performance all on him. the o-line couldnt block for beans. the d-line basically "chomped" that o-line on every snap. the interception that troy threw was totally his fault. he shoulda never thrown that ball. throw it away or take the sack. he pretty much gave them the ball.

The Dream
01-09-2007, 05:25 PM
The last good defense I remember VY playing was OU in 04 or 05, which just happened to be his last loss at UT.

does Ohio State '05 ring a bell?????

Odogg
01-09-2007, 06:26 PM
Kastofna is a joke, I remember him pimping Matt Leinart last year before the draft saying how New Orleans is going to "REGRET" passing on him for Drew Brees! LoL! How did that turn out for you? So of course he now has a vendetta against VY since the Rose Bowl and him being the first QB taken in the draft while "Lionhart" had to wait till the silly Cardinals came a calling. How do you take being passed up by the Detroit Lions? Ughh.

As far as this thread though, its pretty laughable that anyone even thought this up? OK, first lets see, TS is 5'9 and 190 lbs soaking wet while VY is a 6'5 230 monster who runs a 4.5! That ends the debate right there, I won't even get into the rest, just go to youtube and type in "Vince Young" and the argument is over.

Next, If VY were to play that all world Florida defense, they would look like USC's D did last year in the Rose Bowl. Outmatched and Outgunned. They would have thrown a Blitz at him and he would have ran past the end, split the secondary and hit a 60 yarder on them (throwing or running) and UF would have pee'd their pants and went to plan B. Ted Ginn? He don't need no stinkin Ted Ginn, just Dave Thomas and someone to hand the ball of to on running plays. VY would have owned them just like he did everyone else.

Huge
01-09-2007, 06:59 PM
You (Hoth-Boy) went from this:
Yes VY went 8-3 as a started but it's not like he played great games from teh QB spot (ie good passing numbers, good TD/INT ratio, etc. NOT rushing yards; becasue if VY keeps this up (running all teh time) he's going ot get hurt.)
To this:
I must have missed it too, cause I could have sworn VY's QB rating for the year was under 70 (infact it was 66.7) I could have sworn he threw more INTs then TDs, and completed just over 50% of his passes. Maybe it's a good thing VY isn't teh QB here casue based off the stats half the message board would be screaming we needed a new QB
Notice the difference?

If you're going to use his 66.7 QB rating for the season as the evidence that he didn't have a good season, why leave out the evidence that he had a QB rating of 85 or higher in 4 individual games? Wouldn't that prove that he had at least 4 (2 if you want to count the games where his rating was over 100) great games from the QB position?

As for his 66.7 QB rating as a rookie:

Peyton Manning - 71.2 rating, 2 fewer TDs than INTs as a rookie
Drew Brees - 76.9 rating, 1 more TD than INTs his 2nd year (1st as a starter)
Eli Manning - 55.4 rating, 3 fewer TDs than INTs as a rookie
Donovan McNabb - 60.1 rating, 1 more TD than INTs as a rookie

Troy Aikman, John Elway, Dan Fouts are all in the Hall of Fame. All 3 had more INTs than TDs their rookie seasons.

On the opposite end of that spectrum:

Charlie Batch, Patrick Ramsey, Tony Banks, and Aaron Brooks all had more TDs than INTs (or in Banks' case, as many) their rookie seasons. You'd probably need an abacus to count up all their Pro Bowl appearances.

Yeah there is no way Florida's 06 D could be better then OSU's 05 D. I mean they only gave up less points, and less yards a game. And we certainly shouldn't count that they played in the tougher conference. Nope wouldn't want to do that. And I dare not bring up that Florida caused more turnovers then the vaunted 05 OSU D.
UF is certainly far faster than OSU's defense last year.
Let's say '06 Florida's D is better than '05 tOSU's D. Let's say they're leaps and bounds better. But I still don't think they're better than the '06 Baltimore Ravens D. And Vince managed much more than 6 total yards (250 to be exact) against them this year.

Luv Ya Blue 2007
01-10-2007, 12:49 AM
Smith is better at the college level, but I don't see his skills translating to the NFL like VY's.

The last good defense I remember VY playing was OU in 04 or 05, which just happened to be his last loss at UT.

Now how in the world could you make these remarks. Even if I were a OU fan, I would no better. To say TS is a better college player than VY is ludicrous. VY was the qb of the 2005 National Champs. And if you forgot by you dum ass 2nd quote, VY did not lose a game in the 2005 season.

Mexican Texan,
My best advise for you is to leave this subject alone, as it is extremely out of your league. :stirpot: :stirpot: :stirpot:

mexican_texan
01-10-2007, 09:42 AM
uuuhhh....yes, sir I sure did



Then you followed it up with this:



Did I miss something ?
Yeah, you missed the leadership part, it seems.

mexican_texan
01-10-2007, 09:46 AM
I'm a Longhorn. In the OSU game, Smith was clearly the bigger threat.

mexican_texan
01-10-2007, 09:50 AM
does Ohio State '05 ring a bell?????
I found them overrated.

real
01-10-2007, 09:54 AM
I'm a Longhorn. In the OSU game, Smith was clearly the bigger threat.

:crazy:

real
01-10-2007, 09:55 AM
Yeah, you missed the leadership part, it seems.

ok....

VY isn't a great QB. He's a great leader and runner, but not a great QB.

When he can lead a team to a Super Bowl, that's great leadership.

:crazy:

Errant Hothy
01-10-2007, 11:07 AM
Let's say '06 Florida's D is better than '05 tOSU's D. Let's say they're leaps and bounds better. But I still don't think they're better than the '06 Baltimore Ravens D. And Vince managed much more than 6 total yards (250 to be exact) against them this year.

NO but thats faulty logic as VY is surronded by NFL calibar players on the feild, on both sides of the ball. No college unit, D or O, is as good as the worst NFL unit.

I'm done with my own topic, do I have an answer for my own question? At teh time this was posted I would have said that Troy Smith would be the better pro QB, now I don't think so. As for some of the other topics brought up I still feel that a) the 05 Longhorns never played a D as good as Florida's this year, OU's was close b)Florida has better D this year then OSU did last year and c) the biggest factor in where Troy Smith gets drafted will be his height at the combine.

real
01-10-2007, 11:59 AM
NO but thats faulty logic as VY is surronded by NFL calibar players on the feild, on both sides of the ball. No college unit, D or O, is as good as the worst NFL unit.

I'm done with my own topic, do I have an answer for my own question? At teh time this was posted I would have said that Troy Smith would be the better pro QB, now I don't think so. As for some of the other topics brought up I still feel that a) the 05 Longhorns never played a D as good as Florida's this year, OU's was close b)Florida has better D this year then OSU did last year and c) the biggest factor in where Troy Smith gets drafted will be his height at the combine.

I find it so odd, that all of a sudden Florida's D is sooooo great....

Before they put that smack down on OSU no one on this board was giving rave reviews of Florida's defense....Had they lost that game and Troy Smith played really well, no one would be talking about their amazing "team speed"....

I wouldn't have even thought Troy Smith was a better QB than VY even if they had won the N.C....let a lone after the fact....

I really can't believe this is even debatable now....

Will Troy Smith be a better pro? maybe....but I doubt it.....

Was Troy Smith a better college QB ? no....end of discussion.

Chance_C
01-10-2007, 12:11 PM
I would take him this year at 8 if he was available.

travfrancis
01-10-2007, 12:22 PM
Mexican Texan keeps saying he's a big longhorn fan, but I read hornfans.com everyday and I've never seen anyhting like the takes he has on the horns and VY.

Something just doesn't add up with Mexican Texan.

Huge
01-10-2007, 01:02 PM
NO but thats faulty logic as VY is surronded by NFL calibar players on the feild, on both sides of the ball. No college unit, D or O, is as good as the worst NFL unit.
Doesn't the fact Vince is playing against NFL caliber players offset the fact he's playing with NFL caliber players?

real
01-10-2007, 02:24 PM
Doesn't the fact Vince is playing against NFL caliber players offset the fact he's playing with NFL caliber players?

right ?

Is he supposed to be measured as if he was still playing with his UT teammates....:confused:

mexican_texan
01-10-2007, 02:47 PM
Leadership ?

you're questioning his leadership ?

How did we get here?

I thought you said he wasn't a great QB...because he doesn't throw like you want him to....And my response was something to the affect of: Who cares how he's doing it, as long as he's doing it?

If I throw a great frisbee with my foot instead of my hand does that mean I'm not a great frisbee thrower because I do it in an unconventional way?

I could understand if you say he's not a great passer...but leadership ?
...


I'm not a complete UT homer. VY had his faults. You guys make him out to be a god.

mexican_texan
01-10-2007, 02:48 PM
:crazy:
OSU would have won that game if Troy Smith was the QB the whole game.

real
01-10-2007, 02:48 PM
...


I'm not a complete UT homer. VY had his faults. You guys make him out to be a god.

Yeah....



I pray to VY every night...:)

real
01-10-2007, 02:49 PM
OSU would have won that game if Troy Smith was the QB the whole game.

:aikido:

mexican_texan
01-10-2007, 02:52 PM
Troy Smith is really good. At least admit that. Say what you want about his last game, but he was without Ginn. VY had Thomas, who has some of the best hands I've ever seen.

real
01-10-2007, 03:06 PM
Troy Smith is really good. At least admit that. Say what you want about his last game, but he was without Ginn. VY had Thomas, who has some of the best hands I've ever seen.

I never said Troy Smith was bad....In fact I've even said that if he falls to the second rd. we should jump on him...

yourfavoritetexan42
01-10-2007, 03:07 PM
Right now I would say Vince Young. He has more size, and can run a lot better. He throws alright too. He just doesn't have the awareness right now... but I believe that will come.

Troy Smith is the better pure passer, but he doesn't have size and he isn't the greatest rusher. He reminds me a lot of Donavan McNabb.

mexican_texan
01-10-2007, 03:21 PM
I never said Troy Smith was bad....In fact I've even said that if he falls to the second rd. we should jump on him...
That I can agree with. I think he can run the dink and dunk offense better than Carr.

Huge
01-10-2007, 03:43 PM
Troy Smith is really good. At least admit that. Say what you want about his last game, but he was without Ginn. VY had Thomas, who has some of the best hands I've ever seen.

Smith still had Anthony Gonzales in that game. His hands are every bit as good as Ginn's.

TexansSeminole
01-10-2007, 03:48 PM
Smith still had Anthony Gonzales in that game. His hands are every bit as good as Ginn's.

But Ginn provides big play ability and also attracts the attention of the defense. Without Ginn, Gonzalez would not have had as good of a season (not saying he isn't a good receiver; they just feed off each other). Taking away one (especially Ginn) makes the OSU passing attack much less dangerous.

Ginn was a huge loss to OSU in the game.