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View Full Version : La-a-oooser--Vick


infantrycak
10-20-2006, 05:56 PM
"I feel like I'm at a stage where I can almost do it all. I want to continue to run the football and make plays and be a threat with my legs, you know, but I just feel that the game is easier when you're throwing the football. That's the fun part of it. You've just got to be given the opportunity.

"When Reeves was here, I was 50 yards shy of 3,000 yards passing, and I was among top 15 in passing in NFL. Coach Reeves, he believed in me and gave me a chance to throw the football."

Actually, Vick threw for 2,936 yards in 2002, and he was ranked 18th in the league in passer rating.

VICK: "I always think about that, Cris. I always think, if I played in Indianapolis, what type of effect would I have on that team? Or what would I be able to do different? It's something I wish I could do for just one week."

Scroll Down (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)

How delusional is this guy? What effect would you have on Indy?--LOL. It is all the WR's fault. OK Mikey.

chuckm
10-20-2006, 06:16 PM
I have to admit that when I saw him at VT I thought he would wreak havoc in the NFL ..... IMO he hasn't been embraced by a system that takes advantage of his gifts .... not his fault really but in any event time's running out on his window of opportunity ..... he could've chosen his words a bit more carefully in this interview ... :twocents:

edo783
10-20-2006, 07:22 PM
Scroll Down (http://www.profootballtalk.com/rumormill.htm)

How delusional is this guy? What effect would you have on Indy?--LOL. It is all the WR's fault. OK Mikey.

I think he may have been taking more of a shot at Mora than the WRs, but this kid sure isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer.

kastofsna
10-20-2006, 08:35 PM
he sucks.

thetexanator
10-20-2006, 08:52 PM
id still trade carr for vick in a second.

TexansLucky13
10-20-2006, 11:21 PM
id still trade carr for vick in a second.

I am happy you are not in charge! :homer:

Ron Mexico, IMO, could not do any better for himself than what he has done. Does he actually think that Dungy would have wanted him in the first place, much less let him run up and down the field? I severely doubt it, but I could be wrong.

From what I have seen, the entire Falcons image is built around this guy. What more can you ask for? Sure, ok.... so you didn't have Harrison and Wayne on your team. So friggin what? Stop complaining about it. Plant your feet and throw the ball....

I have respect for J. Mora... he is one of my favorite coaches. I do not have respect for Vick, though. He hasn't handled himself too professionally and he hasn't even deserved all the chances he has been given to succeed.

:twocents:

TexansSeminole
10-21-2006, 12:07 AM
I think Kubiak and Shannahan both could coach Vick to alot of success.

Lucky
10-21-2006, 12:38 AM
id still trade carr for vick in a second.At least then we'd have a quality halfback. :crying:

aj.
10-21-2006, 08:14 AM
They ran this on NFL N last night. Vick was definitely railing against his head coach. The Falcons are #1 in the NFL in rushing and #32 in passing.

kastofsna
10-21-2006, 09:28 AM
I think Kubiak and Shannahan both could coach Vick to alot of success.
as long as you don't throw the ball or play any half-decent defense.

J-Storm
10-21-2006, 09:52 AM
Eeehhh, I don't know what to think of that. I mean I am by no stretch of the imagination a Vick fan but the guy has a point (to a degree). I don't know if it's the actual system he's in, the coach, the WR's or Vick himself but he did have Peerless Price there and look how that turned out. Now I know that Peerless is no Steve Smith or Terrell Owens but the guy still had some value and worth when they brought him in, obviously they had a reason to do so. But that theory never worked out. Now they have Ashley Lelie, again, no Randy Moss or Michael Irvin but again, seems to be wasting his time in Atlanta as a WR. Maybe Oakland or Kansas City or Dallas should take a look at him during the off season, because unless things improve there with Mora and Vick I doubt much will end up as Happy Families in Atlanta...

TEXANS84
10-21-2006, 10:33 AM
They ran this on NFL N last night. Vick was definitely railing against his head coach. The Falcons are #1 in the NFL in rushing and #32 in passing.

Yep, saw that too. He said he loved Dan Reeves and what he did for him when he was younger.

Sounded like he doesn't like his head coach down there too much. You can't blame him though with #32 in passing.

TD
10-21-2006, 12:45 PM
Micheal Vick is what you get when you make Reggie Bush a QB.

Then somebody needs to convert Bush to QB.

kastofsna
10-21-2006, 01:15 PM
Micheal Vick is what you get when you make Reggie Bush a QB.
i made a thread about that like 2 days before the draft.

edit: http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?t=21627

Texas_Thrill
10-21-2006, 01:22 PM
i think unfortunately they do not take advantage of his passing abilities.

he throws a great long ball. he should be in a OLD raider offense. RUN the ball which obviously they can do and get some big wr's who can get down the field and catch jump balls.

he's NOT a west coast qb. he doesn't throw short passes well. kid has NO touch.

Hulk75
10-21-2006, 01:31 PM
They ran this on NFL N last night. Vick was definitely railing against his head coach. The Falcons are #1 in the NFL in rushing and #32 in passing.

There is a reason for that. And its not the coaches.

Double Barrel
10-21-2006, 02:10 PM
I've always wondered what kind of QB Vick would end up being once he aged and his legs lost that youthful burst. Now I know...a whiny QB. ;)

I don't hate the guy, though...I just hate the hype that ESPN/media have constructed around him. He's great for Sportscenter highlights, but I'd rather have a 'traditional' QB (i.e. Manning, Brady, etc.) than one of the prototypes. You can pass the ball down the field a lot quicker than running it.

Double Barrel
10-21-2006, 02:24 PM
I'm not doggin' him, bro'. I just got tired of the endless hype from talking heads that said Vick is/was the 'QB of the future'. I remember dudes even saying that traditional dropback passers were going to be a thing of the past.

But the thing is that Vick is a one-of-a-kind talent, so you can't just emulate that with anyone coming out of college. He's like Reggie Bush in that these guys with freak talent come out every 15-20 years. However, I still think he's an average passer at best, which is the bread and butter of the QB position. I don't think he's got the mentality to pull off a Manning-like command of an offense...but then again, not many do.

real
10-23-2006, 09:29 AM
He may not win games the way you want him to....But he wins games...

Double Barrel
10-23-2006, 12:22 PM
4 TDs yesterday against a good D...man, he looked great!

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 12:32 PM
i wouldn't say great, but he was far better than he's been all year.

Stampede
10-23-2006, 01:04 PM
i wouldn't say great, but he was far better than he's been all year.

With the money this guy makes, he should be Poop'in golden pigskins.

Glacier
10-23-2006, 04:14 PM
I think Kubiak and Shannahan both could coach Vick to alot of success.

word.

Ihategeeks
10-23-2006, 05:33 PM
As a Falcons fan and someone that has followed Mike Career since College.
VT fan as well ^_^

The WCO was the worst possible idea. It keeps the defenders closer to the LOS and forces Mike to pass when he could be running for 20 yard gains. It's not even the WCO that is the problem, it's the version of it they play.

You wouldn't expect Chad Pennington to play in the same System as Peyton Manning would you? You wouldn't ask Peyton to Run option plays like VY or Vick. Every QB has strengths and weaknesses.

The ***** coaching staff, Greg Knapp the OC to be specific. Has hurt what Vick can do on the field. Greg Knapp worked under Mooch in SF. And it shows. McNabb runs a WCO and it's a style system that Mike Vick should be running. Vick is running a Herman Edwards WCO suited for someone with no arm like Chad Pennington.

However, the coaching staff has worked wonders with the rushing attack. BUt even that is in large part due to Vick. Something most NFL fans don't understand. The Falcons zone blocking forces the defense to commit playside or cutback. Having Vick in the backfield prevents a defense from doing either or he can keep the ball and burn them for big gains. THis is why the Falcons are the leading rushing team in football and challenging the NFL record book.

Shannhan or Kubiack WOULD be better coaches. They both utilize the zone blocking and extend it to the passing game. Knapp has Vick stuck in a immobile QB passing offense. The only kind of teams that the ultra conservative WCO works against is teams that run the 3-4 defense.

Double Barrel
10-23-2006, 06:36 PM
i wouldn't say great, but he was far better than he's been all year.

yeah, four TD passes against a Steeler D is nothing great. :ok:

kastofsna
10-23-2006, 07:15 PM
yeah, four TD passes against a Steeler D is nothing great. :ok:
if he didn't have 2 turnovers, it'd be great.

Huge
10-23-2006, 07:35 PM
26 years old and he's winning more than 62% of the games he's started.

Those poor Falcons. Hate to think what it'd be like to be saddled with such an underachieving 1st overall QB pick like that.

Kaiser Toro
10-23-2006, 07:37 PM
26 years old and he's winning more than 62% of the games he's started.

Those poor Falcons. Hate to think what it'd be like to be saddled with such an underachieving 1st overall QB pick like that.

That is comedy.

Ihategeeks
10-23-2006, 08:10 PM
26 years old and he's winning more than 62% of the games he's started.

Those poor Falcons. Hate to think what it'd be like to be saddled with such an underachieving 1st overall QB pick like that.

But , the defense bails him out!!!!!!!!

Now, for anyone that wants to use that argument, name 5 starters from the 2002 playoff team defense.

chuckm
10-23-2006, 08:13 PM
But , the defense bails him out!!!!!!!!

Now, for anyone that wants to use that argument, name 5 starters from the 2002 playoff team defense.

I give up ..... you name them.....

Kaiser Toro
10-23-2006, 08:25 PM
Who will make the next move? :popcorn:

Ihategeeks
10-23-2006, 08:56 PM
I give up ..... you name them.....

I'll name 5....

Buchanan
Brookings
Jasper
Carpenter
Kerney, I think the falcons were running 3-4 in those days.

Only 2 of these players are any good ^_-

Kaiser Toro
10-23-2006, 09:25 PM
This is getting good.

TexansLucky13
10-23-2006, 10:26 PM
I love the Atlanta defense. I love their ground game. I love the coaching staff.

But I can't stand Mike Vick. He makes WAY too much money for what he does. He complains constantly.

Play Schaub!

P.S. - For all the Vick jerseys I see on this planet, I bet less than half of the owners of those jerseys could name another player on that team. Kinda like someone else we know..... R***** B***.

kastofsna
10-24-2006, 08:22 AM
i'd give up a few firsts for schaub. best QB on that team.

bah007
10-24-2006, 10:19 AM
I'm not doggin' him, bro'. I just got tired of the endless hype from talking heads that said Vick is/was the 'QB of the future'. I remember dudes even saying that traditional dropback passers were going to be a thing of the past.

But the thing is that Vick is a one-of-a-kind talent, so you can't just emulate that with anyone coming out of college. He's like Reggie Bush in that these guys with freak talent come out every 15-20 years. However, I still think he's an average passer at best, which is the bread and butter of the QB position. I don't think he's got the mentality to pull off a Manning-like command of an offense...but then again, not many do.

We here this junk about a player every year. If every year there is a prospect that comes out only every 15-20 years, then it sounds like they come out every year

Double Barrel
10-24-2006, 11:17 AM
We here this junk about a player every year. If every year there is a prospect that comes out only every 15-20 years, then it sounds like they come out every year

But very few live up to the hype. Vick did and continues to do so. A single player can't win games by his lonesome. Just ask David Carr.

bah007
10-24-2006, 11:20 AM
But very few live up to the hype. Vick did and continues to do so. A single player can't win games by his lonesome. Just ask David Carr.

I know what you mean. That wasnt my point. I was saying that if there is only one truly amazing talent every 15-20 years, then why is there one in every draft

Double Barrel
10-24-2006, 11:54 AM
I know what you mean. That wasnt my point. I was saying that if there is only one truly amazing talent every 15-20 years, then why is there one in every draft

yeah, the media tends to over-hype a player every year, and the pressure it puts on that individual to immediately succeed is enormous. There is way too much media these days, and they have such a herd mentality that things tend to get blown out of proportion.

I'm not a Vick fan, per say, but as football fan, I love watching the guy in action. He brings it, and I always appreciate players like that.

Maddict5
10-24-2006, 12:26 PM
first off, mike vick is frustrating as hell to watch- but i like him..some games like yesterday and v the panthers earlier in the year he looks like the real deal but then in others i just wonder what the hell hes doing playing qb in the nfl..

he is improving though imo and a few more performances anywhere near yesterdays will only strengthen my opinion of him that in time he will be great

run-david-run
10-24-2006, 05:07 PM
first off, mike vick is frustrating as hell to watch- but i like him..some games like yesterday and v the panthers earlier in the year he looks like the real deal but then in others i just wonder what the hell hes doing playing qb in the nfl..

he is improving though imo and a few more performances anywhere near yesterdays will only strengthen my opinion of him that in time he will be great
It took him 5 years to throw more then 2 TD's in a game, how much time do you need?

GuerillaBlack
10-24-2006, 06:28 PM
Carr is a Vick with a better arm and less media craze. A lot less media craze. Carr can run...fast.

bah007
10-24-2006, 06:31 PM
Carr is a Vick with a better arm and less media craze. A lot less media craze. Carr can run...fast.

No kidding. Just imagine how many more times he woulda been sacked the first few years if he moved like Bledsoe

run-david-run
10-24-2006, 06:31 PM
Carr is a Vick with a better arm and less media craze. A lot less media craze. Carr can run...fast.

Umm..in a word: no. Vick is a wide receiver who can throw. Carr is an athletic quarterback. Big differance.

Kaiser Toro
10-24-2006, 08:33 PM
Carr is 10% Bulldog, 27% drops of sunshine, 36% Man Bear Pig and 27% Rocky Balboa, but not the baggage. He can also read real fast.

Football for the Absurd was brought to you by, the Samkon Gado Thespians.

TexansLucky13
10-24-2006, 08:54 PM
Umm..in a word: no. Vick is a wide receiver who can throw. Carr is an athletic quarterback. Big differance.

I have to agree with that. The fact remains, though, that Carr is an extremely athletic QB. He has produced more First Downs with his feet than even Mr. Invincible himself. As for Vick..... I doubt he is close to him, haha. A WR that can throw.... (but not very well).

Tale Gator
10-24-2006, 08:54 PM
I for one am shocked that Vick strongly voiced his disproval with the offensive scheme in Atlanta then miraculously has a career outing the next Sunday.

This tells us that Vick was correct in being outspoken about the coaching staffs timid offensive philosophy.

Now they just need to run Norwood more often.

Ihategeeks
10-29-2006, 04:38 PM
I for one am shocked that Vick strongly voiced his disproval with the offensive scheme in Atlanta then miraculously has a career outing the next Sunday.

This tells us that Vick was correct in being outspoken about the coaching staffs timid offensive philosophy.
.

Damn right he was. 2 weeks in a row :yikes:

bah007
10-29-2006, 11:17 PM
The Vick haters who started this thread haven't said much lately.

I'm not a big fan of Vick but anybody who watches football should be able to admit that he has the ability to succeed in the NFL as a QB.

Up until this point, he has not done much to throw off his stereotype. But he is proving now that he can get it done as a complete player.

infantrycak
10-30-2006, 03:01 PM
The Vick haters who started this thread haven't said much lately.

I'm not a big fan of Vick but anybody who watches football should be able to admit that he has the ability to succeed in the NFL as a QB.

Up until this point, he has not done much to throw off his stereotype. But he is proving now that he can get it done as a complete player.

We'll see. He has 1 or 2 game flashes before than then recedes to season long mediocrity. If he continues to play as a QB great for him. In any event, what made him a looser was throwing his WR's under the bus, speaking wistfully of a HC he got fired and comparing himself to Peyton Manning.

real
10-30-2006, 04:28 PM
Vicks the man...

GuerillaBlack
10-30-2006, 04:35 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't mind having Vick here than Carr.

real
10-30-2006, 04:54 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't mind having Vick here than Carr.

Me neither...

But Im pretty sure there are a million posters that will start with their Carr>Vick Rant...

Kaiser Toro
10-30-2006, 04:57 PM
Me neither...

But Im pretty sure there are a million posters that will start with their Carr>Vick Rant...

Could care less for either of them at their price tags. At least Vick is fun to watch from a NFL fan perspective.

TexansLucky13
10-30-2006, 04:58 PM
We'll see. He has 1 or 2 game flashes before than then recedes to season long mediocrity. If he continues to play as a QB great for him. In any event, what made him a looser was throwing his WR's under the bus, speaking wistfully of a HC he got fired and comparing himself to Peyton Manning.

Exactly.

IMO his attitude is extremely dangerous when coupled with marquee status, as well.

I would take a Tom Brady or a David Carr over a Michael Vick any friggin day.

real
10-30-2006, 04:59 PM
I would take a Tom Brady or a David Carr over a Michael Vick any friggin day.

Told ya....:rolleyes:

real
10-30-2006, 05:02 PM
Could care less for either of them at their price tags. At least Vick is fun to watch from a NFL fan perspective.


I agree with that...to a certain degree...

TexansLucky13
10-30-2006, 05:06 PM
I agree with that...to a certain degree...

Michael Vick is the 4th best paid athlete in any sport. Shouldn't he be winning some Super Bowls?

:hmmm:

real
10-30-2006, 05:10 PM
Michael Vick is the 4th best paid athlete in any sport. Shouldn't he be winning some Super Bowls?

:hmmm:

That's why I said to a certain degree...

Im not sure about the numbers, but Im pretty sure Vick has made a lot of dough for that franchise...with putting butts in the seats to selling merchandise...

His on field production may not be worth it, but Jerry Jones said it best...It's a buisiness as well....

So no his on field production may not be worth it, but as an owner there is no way I'd put Carr and Vick on the same level....I'd take vick 99 times outta 99...

* also as a fan I'd rather have Vick as a Texan than Carr...If people think Kubes can fix Carr why wouldn't he be able to fix Vick...

TexansLucky13
10-30-2006, 05:14 PM
So no his on field production may not be worth it, but as an owner there is no way I'd put Carr and Vick on the same level....I'd take vick 99 times outta 99...

Oh, I completely agree. That is a completely seperate argument altogether though. What an owner wants for the team and what a coach wants for a team are not surprisingly going to be quite different.

Ihategeeks
10-30-2006, 06:35 PM
Michael Vick is the 4th best paid athlete in any sport. Shouldn't he be winning some Super Bowls?

:hmmm:

He has gotten just as far as Peyton Manning.

bah007
10-30-2006, 09:44 PM
He has gotten just as far as Peyton Manning.

ouch!

there goes that arguement.

real
10-31-2006, 08:43 AM
He has gotten just as far as Peyton Manning.

true.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 08:44 AM
He has gotten just as far as Peyton Manning.

Peyton doesn't make nearly as much money as Vick. Peyton is well outside the top 10.

kastofsna
10-31-2006, 08:58 AM
vick deserves plenty of money in a business sense. he sells tons of jerseys, puts people in the seats, gets people to watch the games....and so does manning.

Tale Gator
10-31-2006, 11:14 AM
Vick complains about not throwing the ball enough -- so they let him start throwing it and what happens?

Vick is an awesome player.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 11:16 AM
vick deserves plenty of money in a business sense. he sells tons of jerseys, puts people in the seats, gets people to watch the games....and so does manning.

We can debate this all day. Vick sells tickets and jerseys because he is "Mr. Cool", "QB of the future". Peyton sells tickets because he leads the team to the playoffs every frickin year.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 11:21 AM
Actually Vick is on pace to be one of the candidates for league MVP.

I wonder why.... :chicken:

kastofsna
10-31-2006, 12:06 PM
We can debate this all day. Vick sells tickets and jerseys because he is "Mr. Cool", "QB of the future". Peyton sells tickets because he leads the team to the playoffs every frickin year.
what's there to debate? it's a business. he makes money for the franchise. he deserves a payday. period.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 12:11 PM
what's there to debate? it's a business. he makes money for the franchise. he deserves a payday. period.

But does the team deserve to have to deal with the cap hit that "Side Show" Vick creates, not to mention his attitude? The guy is constantly throwing coaches/players under the bus and never realizes that he plays for a team. IMO he is worthless as anything except for jersey sales.

We can talk Ron Mexico all day if you want.

kastofsna
10-31-2006, 12:15 PM
But does the team deserve to have to deal with the cap hit that "Side Show" Vick creates, not to mention his attitude? The guy is constantly throwing coaches/players under the bus and never realizes that he plays for a team. IMO he is worthless as anything except for jersey sales.
it's a business. capitalism. etc.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 12:20 PM
it's a business. capitalism. etc.

Oh, I completely agree. But you have no argument. Bill Belichick runs the Patriots like a business, yet he has lead that team to three Super Bowls (and maybe another one this year) in the past six years. He understands how to make a good team using a business-style approach.

It seems that the only thing that the Falcons FO understands is that championships don't matter... it's all about the benjamins.

What a wasted franchise. I love their defense. Oh well....

kastofsna
10-31-2006, 12:24 PM
Oh, I completely agree. But you have no argument. Bill Belichick runs the Patriots like a business, yet he has lead that team to three Super Bowls (and maybe another one this year) in the past six years. He understands how to make a good team using a business-style approach.

It seems that the only thing that the Falcons FO understands is that championships don't matter... it's all about the benjamins.

What a wasted franchise. I love their defense. Oh well....
i'm not even arguing. there is no argument. it's not about who deserves it more.

real
10-31-2006, 12:26 PM
It seems that the only thing that the Falcons FO understands is that championships don't matter... it's all about the benjamins.


I think thats the difference between you and their F.O....

I think they believe they can win with Vick....I don't see why they wouldn't......since they are and all....

And you seem to use Superbpwls as a measuring stick....which IMO, isn't entirely fair...

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 12:32 PM
And you seem to use Superbpwls as a measuring stick....which IMO, isn't entirely fair...

Why the heck not? This is a team sport and teams win championships.

Tom Brady has gone under the radar and won 3 SB's. Michael Vick was the biggest thing since sliced bread when he came out of college, and he hasn't contributed nearly as much as Brady.

Don't argue that he hasn't been surrounded by talent, either. The Falcons defense is bad***, IMO. Vick has guys on the offense like Warrick Dunn and Alge Crumpler. He SHOULD be doing something over there.

bah007
10-31-2006, 12:37 PM
Why the heck not? This is a team sport and teams win championships.

Tom Brady has gone under the radar and won 3 SB's. Michael Vick was the biggest thing since sliced bread when he came out of college, and he hasn't contributed nearly as much as Brady.

Don't argue that he hasn't been surrounded by talent, either. The Falcons defense is bad***, IMO. Vick has guys on the offense like Warrick Dunn and Alge Crumpler. He SHOULD be doing something over there.

Peyton Manning was hyped when he was coming out of Tennessee.

Where are his rings.

It is a TEAM game.

Just cuz the Falcons havent won a ring doesnt mean that Vick sucks... unless you think that Peyton Manning also sucks for the same reason.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 12:39 PM
Peyton Manning was hyped when he was coming out of Tennessee.

Where are his rings.

It is a TEAM game.

Just cuz the Falcons havent won a ring doesnt mean that Vick sucks... unless you think that Peyton Manning also sucks for the same reason.

You don't know me very well do you?

I actually use the EXACT same argument against Peyton Manning. At least Peyton gets them to the playoffs every year, though.

bah007
10-31-2006, 12:41 PM
You don't know me very well do you?

I actually use the EXACT same argument against Peyton Manning. At least Peyton gets them to the playoffs every year, though.

Well if you really think that Manning sucks then your point is valid.

kastofsna
10-31-2006, 12:42 PM
Well if you really think that Manning sucks then your point is valid.
anyone that thinks peyton manning sucks doesn't anything of validity to say.

bah007
10-31-2006, 12:43 PM
anyone that thinks peyton manning sucks doesn't anything of validity to say.

I meant that his arguement makes sense (to him).

I think Manning is the best QB in the league.

kastofsna
10-31-2006, 12:44 PM
I meant that his arguement makes sense (to him).

I think Manning is the best QB in the league.
well yes, a guy who thinks aliens stuff legos in his underwear while he sleeps probably thinks a lot of what he says makes sense.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 12:45 PM
anyone that thinks peyton manning sucks doesn't anything of validity to say.

I don't say that Peyton sucks. He is a future Hall of Fame QB and he is excellent at what he does. He is the master of the audible and he can place that ball anywhere on the field.

I think he does more harm than good, though. He can't win big games. Dan Marino II.

Peyton doesn't suck. But yes, I think anyone that thinks Peyton "sucks" is probably just a hater and doesn't know much. I hate Peyton but I know he doesnt suck.

kastofsna
10-31-2006, 12:48 PM
I think he does more harm than good, though. He can't win big games. Dan Marino II.
:yikes:

tell me why he can't win a "big game."

bah007
10-31-2006, 12:49 PM
:yikes:

tell me why he can't win a "big game."

cuz he has never had a good defense.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 12:50 PM
:yikes:

tell me why he can't win a "big game."

Because the Patriots always kick his butt in the post-season??

I dunno, dude.... you tell me.

real
10-31-2006, 12:54 PM
I think he does more harm than good, though. He can't win big games. Dan Marino II.


You don't make sense to me....football is a team game....and you are basically putting blame on one player...

Superbowls are great and they help put players over the edge, but if your main meausuring stick of how good a single player is how many superbowls have they won I don't know what to tell ya'...

jerek
10-31-2006, 12:56 PM
The Super Bowls comparison is very overused. Are Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson superior to Dan Marino or Peyton Manning?

I don't think Vick is all that (and I think he's only average as a passer) but he's clearly a unique commodity and I think the Falcons genuinely believe their best chances for success rest in him being their QB.

OTOH I get tired of reading oversimplified arguments stating that Vick is primarily or even the sole reason for the Falcons success.

kastofsna
10-31-2006, 12:58 PM
Because the Patriots always kick his butt in the post-season??

I dunno, dude.... you tell me.
that's because the patriots were a better team, and they kicked EVERYONE's butts. ;)

see what he did against the broncos and chiefs? those were "big games." especially the chiefs. on the road at arrowhead in january? he tore 'em up. they didn't punt the entire game. CLEARLY he can win the "big game." but if they play a team that's better than them, well.....he's not going to win.

TexansLucky13
10-31-2006, 01:07 PM
that's because the patriots were a better team, and they kicked EVERYONE's butts. ;)

see what he did against the broncos and chiefs? those were "big games." especially the chiefs. on the road at arrowhead in january? he tore 'em up. they didn't punt the entire game. CLEARLY he can win the "big game." but if they play a team that's better than them, well.....he's not going to win.

It is definitely something that different people have different opinions on. Good teams find a way to win, though. Peyton just seems to choke when they need him the most. I dunno.

infantrycak
11-01-2006, 08:53 PM
He's a big reason why they are a beating good teams. If you looked closer at his last two games you could see that.

That's great. If he had performed anything close to the last two games over the last 5.5 years this wouldn't be an issue. 5.5 years to get his 1st game with over 2 TD's and it came after 3 games with a total of 0 TD's and 2 INT's. Maybe he has turned the corner, we'll see. These last two games are very atypical.

SF49erFaithful
11-01-2006, 09:15 PM
Brady > Manning

mexican_texan
11-01-2006, 09:28 PM
Brady > Manning
no.

thunderkyss
11-01-2006, 09:37 PM
We'll see. He has 1 or 2 game flashes before than then recedes to season long mediocrity. If he continues to play as a QB great for him. In any event, what made him a looser was throwing his WR's under the bus, speaking wistfully of a HC he got fired and comparing himself to Peyton Manning.

You will defend Carr, but Dog Vick??

Priceless.

We are all hoping Kubiak can get David to play mediocre on a constitent basis, & you're dogging Vick...

:brickwall

thunderkyss
11-01-2006, 10:04 PM
That's great. If he had performed anything close to the last two games over the last 5.5 years this wouldn't be an issue. 5.5 years to get his 1st game with over 2 TD's and it came after 3 games with a total of 0 TD's and 2 INT's. Maybe he has turned the corner, we'll see. These last two games are very atypical.

This shouldn't be an issue at all. The Falcons have their QB, and he is doing everything they want him to do. The fans are happy, the coach is happy, the owner is happy, the NFL is happy......... what are we discussing?? that Vick hasn't thrown more than 2 TD passes in the last 5 years.

Do you know how many games he accounted for more than 2 TD in a game?? Would it matter that he accounted for more than 2 TDs in 3 games his sophomore season??

He accounted for 24 touchdowns that year.

Right now, the Falcons just need to find a way to keep him healthy for complete season.

infantrycak
11-01-2006, 10:15 PM
One of the great things about the NFL is that each year is different and has different characteristics. If you watch his current level of play it is clearly superior than his play since Mora took over....Some think that he was starting to play well under Reeves and Mora just screwed his entire game up. Right now he is playing like an MVP...that is the only thing that matters when you look at his game half way thru 2006 if you ask me, not the last five years....

I'd be on board if this year was consistent for 8 games--it isn't. He has been good as a QB in 2. The funny thing about the Reeves vs. Mora observation is Vick played a hand in getting Reeves fired. Like I said--keep it up and he may finally live up to the hype. Otherwise he has been an incredible slash athlete attempting to play QB--definite individual game changing ability but not a solid much less elite QB. The last two weeks look like something--we will see.

unless you want to look at Carr that way too...or does he have the same dynamic as a rival player when it comes to critique?

Sure--Vick, incredible, totally incredible athlete who shares some rumors with Carr like poor work ethic (not that any of us know either to be true)--and definitely has won some extra games on individual running performance but prior to the last two has relied on D, a running game and his running ability to get by. Maybe that's enough--probably not--may be turning the corner. Carr--not as gifted but very physically gifted athlete on a much worse team who has not individually led his team to more than an extra 1 or 2 wins--has never had a top half unit around him on either side of the ball to this point. Do or die turning point year which is at best on edge at this point. Is that fair enough?

It always amazes me how the same people that try to tell us David Carr is a solid QB but can't admit when someone like Mike Vick or Vince Young changes games (not talking to you specifically but this exchange brought on that thought). He has been inconsistent, but at least he is the reason his team wins games on many occasions.

Now I know you aren't "talking to me" but I don't believe anyone can find a quote from me saying Carr is a solid QB--so far he has been slightly gelatinous. Nip the extreme statements sure. "He throws all the time to the RB's" when he doesn't--yup I will say something--same as "DD is too small" or "Ryans is too small."

thunderkyss--your post isn't worth responding to. See how Vinny does it?

Huge
11-02-2006, 09:59 AM
I'd be on board if this year was consistent for 8 games--it isn't. He has been good as a QB in 2. The funny thing about the Reeves vs. Mora observation is Vick played a hand in getting Reeves fired. Like I said--keep it up and he may finally live up to the hype. Otherwise he has been an incredible slash athlete attempting to play QB--definite individual game changing ability but not a solid much less elite QB. The last two weeks look like something--we will see.
He was only 13/22, 153, 0 TDs, 1 INT in their 32-10 win against Arizona. Depsite their offense scoring 25 points (7 came from the defense), Vick did not do his job as the QB because did not effectively move them down the field using his arm. Instead, he relied on the 101 yards rushing he accumulated on 11 carries.

Is this what you're saying?

real
11-02-2006, 10:00 AM
He was only 13/22, 153, 0 TDs, 1 INT in their 32-10 win against Arizona. Depsite their offense scoring 25 points (7 came from the defense), Vick did not do his job as the QB because did not effectively move them down the field using his arm. Instead, he relied on the 101 yards rushing he accumulated on 11 carries.

Is this what you're saying?

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to Huge again.

infantrycak
11-02-2006, 10:09 AM
He was only 13/22, 153, 0 TDs, 1 INT in their 32-10 win against Arizona. Depsite their offense scoring 25 points (7 came from the defense), Vick did not do his job as the QB because did not effectively move them down the field using his arm. Instead, he relied on the 101 yards rushing he accumulated on 11 carries.

Is this what you're saying?

His job is what the Falcons want him to do. Tell me what was inaccurate in what I said above other than disagreement over the opinion on how to characterize him as a QB. I said he was an incredible athlete who could change games but that has primarily been done with his feet not his arm. Does your example contradict that in any way? IMO if you can't throw well enough to pull your team from behind (a comment echoed on several occasions by Vinny) then you aren't an elite QB. Guy is a fantastic, electrifying athlete. He has shown flashes of promise at becoming a true QB--let's see if he keeps it up.

Y'all just don't get it in any event. I am not running Vick down--really I would like to see him be what Reggie Bush was touted as--the true multipurpose offensive weapon. You want to talk game planning nightmare. Put Schaub in at QB and have Vick running around at RB, WR and 2nd QB. Toss the ball to Vick and what does the D do?

Huge
11-02-2006, 10:32 AM
His job is what the Falcons want him to do. Tell me what was inaccurate in what I said above other than disagreement over the opinion on how to characterize him as a QB. I said he was an incredible athlete who could change games but that has primarily been done with his feet not his arm. Does your example contradict that in any way? IMO if you can't throw well enough to pull your team from behind (a comment echoed on several occasions by Vinny) then you aren't an elite QB. Guy is a fantastic, electrifying athlete. He has shown flashes of promise at becoming a true QB--let's see if he keeps it up.
If you're an elite QB, it's pretty rare that you have to be able to throw the ball to bring your team from behind. Constantly having your team out in front helps define you as an elite QB. I can't think of any instances where Vick has proven he can do this (other than most recently) because I don't belive there are many instances where he had to.

If he used his legs to bring his team back to win, would that make him less of a QB in your eyes? Before the forward pass was invented, was there even a QB position on the field or was everybody considered RBs?

Y'all just don't get it in any event. I am not running Vick down--really I would like to see him be what Reggie Bush was touted as--the true multipurpose offensive weapon. You want to talk game planning nightmare. Put Schaub in at QB and have Vick running around at RB, WR and 2nd QB. Toss the ball to Vick and what does the D do?
You can gameplan to take any player out of a game. You cannot game plan to keep the QB from taking the snap from under center. That's why QB is the most important position on offense if not on the field. Because they are going to handle the ball on pretty much every snap not including a punt, FG or trick play. Personally, I'd much rather have Vick with the ball in his hands as much as possible.

infantrycak
11-02-2006, 10:43 AM
If you're an elite QB, it's pretty rare that you have to be able to throw the ball to bring your team from behind.

Very well argued but sorry not true. Rarely having to come from behind is much more a sign of a very good all around team--even then it is rare not non-existant. In any event, in any 6 year career QB's will have opportunities to make up big deficits. Staubach was a classic at it while being an elite QB on a very good team. Seriously, if you need two TD's in 2 minutes would you even think of picking Vick over Staubach, Brady, Peyton, etc. to run your offense. There are times in the NFL when the QB is going to have to be a good passer. Vick still hasn't proven he can do that although there is no doubt he has minimized the number of times it has happened for him with his running. Maybe he has turned the corner--like I said, we'll see.

thunderkyss
11-02-2006, 10:43 AM
His job is what the Falcons want him to do. Tell me what was inaccurate in what I said above other than disagreement over the opinion on how to characterize him as a QB. I said he was an incredible athlete who could change games but that has primarily been done with his feet not his arm. Does your example contradict that in any way? IMO if you can't throw well enough to pull your team from behind (a comment echoed on several occasions by Vinny) then you aren't an elite QB.

I agree..... if your QB can't play like SteveMcnair or JakePlummer, you can't call him elite.

Huge
11-02-2006, 11:01 AM
Very well argued but sorry not true. Rarely having to come from behind is much more a sign of a very good all around team--even then it is rare not non-existant. In any event, in any 6 year career QB's will have opportunities to make up big deficits. Staubach was a classic at it while being an elite QB on a very good team. Seriously, if you need two TD's in 2 minutes would you even think of picking Vick over Staubach, Brady, Peyton, etc. to run your offense. There are times in the NFL when the QB is going to have to be a good passer. Vick still hasn't proven he can do that although there is no doubt he has minimized the number of times it has happened for him with his running. Maybe he has turned the corner--like I said, we'll see.
In 2002, Vick leads the Falcons down the field against the Bears for a potential game winning FG only to have Jay Feely miss the kick. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20020915_CHI@ATL)

Same season...Vick rallies his team down 17 points in the 4th qtr against the Steelers only to have Feely miss another game winner ending the game in a tie. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap/NFL_20021110_ATL@PIT)

Same season...Vick leads the Falcons down the field for a game tying TD with :21 left on the clock. Feely misses another (36 yards this time) that would've won it. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20021215_SEA@ATL)

Same season...Vick leads the Falcons down the field with 2:12 to go. This time Feely hits the FG and the Falcons win. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20021027_ATL@NO)

Same season...Vick rips off a 46 yard game winning TD run in OT to beat the Vikings. (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay/NFL_20021201_ATL@MIN) Wait, that one probably doesn't count because he didn't use his arm.

And those are just examples from the '02 season.

infantrycak
11-02-2006, 11:07 AM
Look we need to just agree to disagree. Several of the examples like the 1st one you gave were on running ability not passing. That's fine. Some folks value that more than others. IMO in order to be an elite QB you need to be able to pass better than half the QB's in the league at a minimum (a very generous standard IMO) as an average over your career. My ideal QB is someone like Staubach--an elite passer who when needed can run. Let's see what he does in the next few games and we can revisit this if need be.

Huge
11-02-2006, 11:15 AM
Look we need to just agree to disagree. Several of the examples like the 1st one you gave were on running ability not passing. That's fine. Some folks value that more than others. IMO in order to be an elite QB you need to be able to pass better than half the QB's in the league at a minimum (a very generous standard IMO) as an average over your career. My ideal QB is someone like Staubach--an elite passer who when needed can run. Let's see what he does in the next few games and we can revisit this if need be.
I don't value running over passing or vice versa. Both are worth 6 points in the endzone. A FG set up by the run opposed to a FG set up by the pass is still worth 3 points. They carry the same value to me.

I'm sure there are other examples where he used his arm. If it was that easy to find 5 examples just from the '02 season, I'd imagine there are several more from other seasons.

If Vick continues to put his team in position to win, as he did in those examples I listed, it shouldn't (and won't) matter how he does it.

Dr. Toro
11-02-2006, 01:33 PM
My two cents on Vick:

He is what they thought he is! He is what they thought he is!

Atlanta knows what he can do, run like the wind and throw this football over them there mountains. He does these things consistently... he's always a good runner and he always has a cannon. Atlanta never planned around him being a good passer and this recent stuff is all bonus. They actually planned on the consistency of his freakish athleticism and inconsistency passing the ball... if that makes sense. Atlanta built a defense and a running game on the assumption that if they can manage games, hang around until the 4th quarter, then the best athlete on the field will make plays and win games and if they get a lead they can keep it.

I do think Vick is a great QB... I think he always was. He wins games and makes plays and has been a pretty poor passer. He's a great QB. The only area in which he has disappointed has been health, IMO. You can build a franchise around an inconsistent passer if he's the best athlete in the league, but you can't build a franchise around a guy that can't stay healthy. They'll keep Matt Schaub and pay him well, for that very reason.

Stats that I think make a good case for Vick is his average of about 800 yards rushing and 2500 passing in years when he's healthy as well as his career 61-44 TD/INT ratio (Manning was 138/100 through 5 years, almost an identical ratio). When he's healthy he pretty consistently comes up with 2500 yds passing, 800 rushing, and about 20 TDs. Throw in the fact that defenses are so obsessed with him running that your backs are gonna get a lotta room to run, and I say he's in the upper echelon of QBs with Manning, McNabb, and Brady in how he impacts a game. Since I think rushing yards are worth about 50% more than passing yards, I think you can see why I'd compare him with 4000 yard passers like Manning and McNabb. Call me crazy, but that's what I think.

If he puts up 3000 passing yards and 1000 rushing yards this year... which he's pretty close to being on pace for, I think more people will think like I do on this matter.

kbourda
11-03-2006, 11:37 PM
Look we need to just agree to disagree. Several of the examples like the 1st one you gave were on running ability not passing. That's fine. Some folks value that more than others. IMO in order to be an elite QB you need to be able to pass better than half the QB's in the league at a minimum (a very generous standard IMO) as an average over your career. My ideal QB is someone like Staubach--an elite passer who when needed can run. Let's see what he does in the next few games and we can revisit this if need be.

I don't know what "values" mean more running or passing. But if either equal the value that means the most (WINNING) then why should it matter?

kastofsna
11-05-2006, 04:19 PM
and vick shows us again who he really is: Mr. Inconsistent.

edo783
11-05-2006, 04:21 PM
and vick shows us again who he really is: Mr. Inconsistent.

Yup

kastofsna
11-13-2006, 09:15 AM
boy it feels good to have the old vick back.

jerek
11-13-2006, 10:10 AM
and vick shows us again who he really is: Mr. Inconsistent.

He is a Winner a Leader a Champion and a Quarterback of the Highest Pedigree. The coaches like him, the fans like him, he sells jerseys, and you need to take your negativity somewhere else. :rolleyes:

As much as Vick has been a primary reason that his team wins games, his turnovers and wildly inconsistent play have lost them games as well. In any event you can't ignore the contributions of his supporting cast on both sides of the ball.

kastofsna
11-13-2006, 10:29 AM
a champion? news to me.

vick's always been extremely inconsistent and there's no reason to think he'll gain any sort of consistency in the near-future. he looks great against pittsburgh and cincinnati and looks like complete crap against detroit and cleveland? comical. and not unexpected.

keep defending him, calling him a "winner." he wins games. but he also loses games, because he's also a LOSER.

bah007
11-13-2006, 11:12 AM
I have always wanted the coaches to use Carr more like the Falcons use Vick.

We saw that this weekend against the Jags.

They gave him a few designed run plays & they were very effective.

His legs are a weapon that we should take advantage of more often.

Hopefully, Carr will continue to run like Vick & pass like Carr.

jerek
11-13-2006, 12:27 PM
a champion? news to me.

vick's always been extremely inconsistent and there's no reason to think he'll gain any sort of consistency in the near-future. he looks great against pittsburgh and cincinnati and looks like complete crap against detroit and cleveland? comical. and not unexpected.

keep defending him, calling him a "winner." he wins games. but he also loses games, because he's also a LOSER.

Total sarcasm, dude. My stance on Vick has been consistent and well documented.

kastofsna
11-13-2006, 12:32 PM
Total sarcasm, dude. My stance on Vick has been consistent and well documented.

well it was more in response to anyone that would say that, since i've literally had to copy and paste that sevreal times to other people.

jerek
11-13-2006, 12:58 PM
Things change from year to year, and sometimes from week to week in the NFL...try not to hold too tight. Players evolve....regress...just like teams do. If you aren't willing to change your mind or just clutch on to some old perceptions you will tend to be more wrong than you are by changing your mind from time to time. Vick is still evolving a bit...jury is out long term just like it is for Carr imo.

I would agree that players change and evolve. I'm not sure Vick is evolving, as I still feel he is inconsistent. Until I see more I would consider his recent performances an exception rather than a changing of the rule. He has put up some very good showings recently and might be turning a corner. In fairness to Vick though I don't watch him nearly as much as I do Carr -- a combination of not having time and my friggin apartment complex not allowing me to have satellite dish and NFL Network -- so feel free to take my comments with whatever asterisk you deem appropriate. Agree that the jury is still out on Carr but I feel like he is demonstrating the progress I expected out of him at this point. I don't have access to the Falcons the way I do the Texans so take FWIW.

JDizzle
11-26-2006, 05:14 PM
Vick flips his come crowd off today after a loss. Gotta love him.

TexansLucky13
11-26-2006, 05:31 PM
Vick flips his come crowd off today after a loss. Gotta love him.

Did he really? What a #$%^&@

JDizzle
11-26-2006, 05:51 PM
Yeah, he did. I;m sure it will be all over SN tonight.

bah007
11-26-2006, 05:53 PM
Did he really? What a #$%^&@

He did.

The fans booed the Falcons off the field at the end of every quarter (they deserved it) & I guess Vick got sick of it.

Falcons run for 280 yds & still get spanked. It was a pathetic game.

The Dude Abides
11-26-2006, 06:06 PM
I saw the video of it. Pretty classy.

GuerillaBlack
11-26-2006, 07:37 PM
Is the video on YouTube. I saw stilled pictures of it on NFL TOday and Football Night in America.

afcman
11-26-2006, 08:00 PM
I switched off the texans game in the 3rd to the falcons game. I saw it. Will the talking heads stop kissing Vicks butt now?

TexansLucky13
11-26-2006, 08:03 PM
I switched off the texans game in the 3rd to the falcons game. I saw it. Will the talking heads stop kissing Vicks butt now?

Are you kidding? This was all a publicity stunt. Now that Vick has publicly admitted that he is scum, scum will start buying his jerseys!

JK of course.....

edo783
11-26-2006, 10:39 PM
So what, Vick pulled a Plummer. It will cost him 10-15K and he will go to the Mens club to parade as Rom Mexico some more and could care less.