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gtexan02
10-17-2006, 08:36 PM
How much differnet is Kubiak from Capers?? He promised a lot of changes, but has so far turned into a Capers clone in many ways:

1. He has one speciality, and the other is incredibly lacking (Capers couldn't coach offense, Kubiak can't coach the defense)

2. We see the same unimaginative playcalling week in and week out

3. Trying to committ to the run even if it isn't working

4. Going with a system rather than molding the system to his players

5. Lack of utilizing the TE in the passing game (the last 2 games)

6. Short dumpoffs and quick slants

7. Inability to make adjustments at half time

8. Playing to keep it close rather than to win.

I know its still early, but Kubes promised a lot in preseason, and we did well. Since the regular season, he has slowly morphed into Capers it would seem. What do you think?

Ibar_Harry
10-17-2006, 09:28 PM
How many times have you heard the comment we have to get the ball into David's hands. How David goes so goes the team. You know what? Kubiak is his own worst enemy.

Carr either can't develop or is not being allowed to develop. What you say? Yes, that is what I'm saying. I'm from the old school that says the QB is the leader on the field, the field general. As such he should be the one calling the plays. I'm not saying the coaching shouldn't have input, but in general the QB should be calling and listening to his players coming back to the huddle. When Carr did that on two occasions during the previous administration we were very successful. On the 1 yard line with a chance to open up the game, the ball should have been in Carr's hands to put maximum pressure on the defense. We had to trust his abilities at that point in the game. But Kubiak couldn't or wouldn't trust Carr.

All of the leadership and play calling appears to have been taken away from Carr. He can't even call audibles it appears. Coaches in the NFL have moved away from allowing the QB's to develop into signal callers and field Generals. The problem with that is the coaches don't have the on field reports. They don't see the game from the QB's prespective. The press box is not like being on the field. What appear to be right from the press box could be wrong when seen by the QB on the field. Let Carr sink or swim. A great coach is one who teaches his player how to play the game and lets him play the game. Its like being a parent. You can't be with your child every minute of the day.

Some of you would say Carr is no Payton Manning and I would agree with you right now. I would, however, say the following. Payton Manning is what he is because he was fortunate enough to be able to grow up in a nurturing environment. He was allowed to become the leader and play caller on the field. Obviously there were a number of factors, but the fact is he was allowed to win or loose on his own. When you make mistakes from your own play calling you learn what is best. Being spoon fed does not lead to an excellent decision maker or play caller. You never learn to make the critical decisions when help is not available. I could never understand a coaching staff yelling at a QB for not making the right decisions when they were never allowed to make decisions. Kubiak and Capers develop followers, not leaders.

As good as Brady is, he is also a follower. He does make some decisions - a lot more than Carr - but he is still a follower. He is not an indepent thinker on the field. He has to wait for the play call. Again, I have a prejudice and that is I want my QB to be a play caller. If he can't do the job, then I will find someone who can. But I know that is the only way I will have a leader on the field and that's what I need when the going gets rough and quick decisions have to be made. I don't want to have him wait for my decisions and I don't want delay penalties because they can't figure out what I called. I want a QB who can see something happening by the other team that allows him to catch them off guard by a quick decision. All of that happens when your QB is the decison maker.

I'm not saying Kubiak hasn't taught Carr a lot of things about the game. That's what Kubiak's job is to teach his QB how to play the game, but then he has to allow him to go play the game. He's there to point out during the course of the game what he is doing right or wrong and aid in decisions at critical parts of the game based on field input. The same is true for the defense. Leaders are developed because they learn to make decisions on the battle field.

Capers would not allow his players to make decisions except for Wong. In fact when we lost Wong, Capers was lost. He had no one to replace him on the field. Wong might be more important to this ball club than many think.

Kubiak uses the word "KID" far too often. These are not KIDS, but men or Young men. Yes, they need to be coached, but they are to be treated like men both from a mental and responsibility point of view. They are grown up, treat them like adults. Teach them to be decision makers, not followers. If you do that, you will have a great team.

When you say Kubiak is the same as Capers I agree in the above way. Capers never developed decision makers, Wong was a decision maker before he came here. The one person who became a decision maker under Capers was probably the one person we miss the most this year. That was DD. DD makes instance decisions and finds the holes or makes them whichever is necessary. We do not have a RB who has DD's capabilities, little lone, his ability to make decisions. In any event its time for the coaches and players to grow up. They need to trust each other. It is not a one way street.

Scooter
10-17-2006, 09:39 PM
How much differnet is Kubiak from Capers?? He promised a lot of changes, but has so far turned into a Capers clone in many ways:

1. He has one speciality, and the other is incredibly lacking (Capers couldn't coach offense, Kubiak can't coach the defense)

that's how it is with most coaches. kubiak knows this and adjusts accordingly ... he drafts defense first and trusts the coaches on that side of the ball while he works with his strengths. capers meddled in the offense and messed it up, while ignoring his strength.

2. We see the same unimaginative playcalling week in and week out

they're opening up the playbook at a snails' pace as i noted in another thread. i'm not sure the reason for this.

3. Trying to committ to the run even if it isn't working

this is the NFL, you dont win if you cant run. even with a 20 point lead and 40+ carries, arizona lost because they couldnt run the ball even with a great RB.

4. Going with a system rather than molding the system to his players

this is a good thing and proven to work for more than a decade with his former team. kubiak's coming into a very untallented team and it's going to take time to find these players that fit the system.

5. Lack of utilizing the TE in the passing game (the last 2 games)

not sure what happened here, i figured putz would be carr's favorite target before the season started.

6. Short dumpoffs and quick slants

bad pass protection. it's a little better, only because carr's getting rid of the ball so quickly

7. Inability to make adjustments at half time

i agree with this one too, but i'm going to go homer and blame it on being a rookie.

8. Playing to keep it close rather than to win.

you're still stuck on capers. the few times we've been close, kubiak's still throwing the ball and trying to create a balanced attack.

I know its still early, but Kubes promised a lot in preseason, and we did well. Since the regular season, he has slowly morphed into Capers it would seem. What do you think?

Cheroqui
10-17-2006, 09:41 PM
Hey what happened to our zone blocking that was causing teams defenses to shift to one side for the run and wokred well in setting up our bootlegs? I remember when we started using it during preseason, and seeing Sage run a beautiful bootleg because of it.

Also the TE's?...

I know somethings wrong but don't know what exactly is the problem.

sleepwalker
10-17-2006, 09:41 PM
My 2 cents:

Kubiak is a smart offensive coach, look what he's done with Carr in a very short time...I think his past record shows that.

Bottom line is: Kubiak inherited 4 yrs worth draft doodoo...Lost his 1000yrd rusher and now we have lost Payne...How can he possibly fix things this fast?

Grid
10-17-2006, 09:52 PM
They are probably both similar because they are both coaches in the NFL. And if you look around you will see that alot of coaches share similar traits.

The difference between a winning coach and a losing coach..is that the winning coach is winning.

Im not gonna go into a long spiel about Kubiak..ill just point out that Kubiak has shown a willingness to bench, and cut, players that dont contribute. That is more than Capers did, and its a big thing.

In case ya hadnt noticed.. Kubiak considers us to be in a rebuilding stage.. and hes right to think that way.. we are still building talent on this team.

epiphany: Capers is gone because he knew his time was running thin..and he had to field a good team immediately.. so he threw guys out there that werent really all that good, and tried to force a square peg into a round hole. Kubiak has come in and cut away the fat that Capers was trying to pass off as sirloin, and now he is trying to continue building our talent base.

We may be in for a wait.. but its too early to call out Kubiak. Way too early.

tsip
10-17-2006, 10:58 PM
Did everyone read the Chronicle article today? McNair and Smith said 2 different things about winning--

"Asked what he can do for the team in the offseason, Smith said: "We're not talking about the future. We're talking about right now. We're trying to do everything we can to win now. We're trying to win our next game against Jacksonville."

From McNair

"I want to win now, but I understand the situation. It takes time for a new coach and general manager to get the people they want in place. I know we're going to win. Hopefully, it's going to be sooner instead of later."

One says 'win right now,' the other says 'hopefully sooner than later.'

IMO, this team is not 'on the same' page right now. To win 'right now,' our best chance would have been to develope schemes that 'played' to our players strength, something Kubiak said he was going to do but has not. Instead, he's got a 'Heinz 57' team--some Green Bay, some Denver, and some 'who knows' and-caught in the middle-is a team full of players that have very little 'common' playing styles.

However, IMO, our biggest problem--aka Capers--has to do with 'philosophy.' What kind of team does Kubiak want? What's his plan to get that type of team? Initially, Gary expressed some good ideas about this but-somewhere and some how, he's gotten 'off track.' JMO, but the 'biggest' track jumping is abandoning the notion of starting by building a system (with a Denver flavor) around the current personnel. Then, as new players were added and others subtracted from the team, the system could be modified to take the upgraded personnel into account, eventually being the 'complete' team that Gary wants.

This gradual adding/subtracting of players-over time-would give the team the best oppurtunity to win/evolve/learn on the field now, until 'everything' was in place. That could've been next year, maybe the year after...but, now--who knows?

What happened?

Many posters think Kubiak has drastically changed the offense for the better, but that is simply not true. We've gained 26 more yds and scored 18 more pts than last year. The defense? It's worse-including giving up more points.

Carr has better numbers, which is a reflection of all the time Kubiak has spent with him-but-this could drastically change if he has too many more games like Sunday--128 yds/2ints/4.7 ypa/0 TDs.

A HC is in charge of the entire team, not just part of it like a coordinator. meaning he has no 'comfort zone' about assuming coaching outside his 'specialty' is being done effectively. IMO, this is especially true if you have new coaches--

Did Kubiak spend too much time with Carr? Our running game (supposedly a Kubiak strength) is a 'joke'-our OL is unsettled-we have a 'newbie' receiver coach-our Defense is a 'wreck.'.....

Like the saying goes, only time will tell. Under Capers, the team got better before it became worse--will this team get better under Kubiak?...or has the damage already been done?:hmmm: :dontknowa

Scooter
10-17-2006, 11:06 PM
edit: nevermind.

texan279
10-18-2006, 12:09 AM
How much differnet is Kubiak from Capers?? He promised a lot of changes, but has so far turned into a Capers clone in many ways:

1. He has one speciality, and the other is incredibly lacking (Capers couldn't coach offense, Kubiak can't coach the defense)

2. We see the same unimaginative playcalling week in and week out

3. Trying to committ to the run even if it isn't working

4. Going with a system rather than molding the system to his players

5. Lack of utilizing the TE in the passing game (the last 2 games)

6. Short dumpoffs and quick slants

7. Inability to make adjustments at half time

8. Playing to keep it close rather than to win.

I know its still early, but Kubes promised a lot in preseason, and we did well. Since the regular season, he has slowly morphed into Capers it would seem. What do you think?

We watched Capers for 4 seasons, we've seen Kubiak for 5 games, I am going to give him a little more time than that before I start comparing him to Capers.

thunderkyss
10-18-2006, 12:41 AM
Gtexan..... in which game did we try to commit to the run, even though the run wasn't working?? Try to help me understand what you consider commiting to the run?? I don't think we've shown any semblance of a commitment to running the football.

Arizona last night, 32 carries, that's a commitment to the run. 32 carries for 54 yards, that's a commitment though it isn't working.

KC this past Sunday,


Ibar...... how old are you??

FanFromCali
10-18-2006, 09:28 AM
My 2 cents:

Kubiak is a smart offensive coach, look what he's done with Carr in a very short time...I think his past record shows that.

Bottom line is: Kubiak inherited 4 yrs worth draft doodoo...Lost his 1000yrd rusher and now we have lost Payne...How can he possibly fix things this fast?

This is exactly correct. It is one thing to be impatient (totally understandable for what the franchise has went through) but to expect a total turn-around in just five games? My God, give the guy a chance. A coach needs at least three years to get the right players for their system.

This year we go 4-12 or 5-11. Next year we get six, maybe even seven wins. That third year is where he shows if he is the right coach or not by making a run at the playoffs. Again, it has only been a handful of games and he still has a lot of players on the team that will not be here a couple of years from now. This is a project, not a "quick fix".

thunderkyss
10-18-2006, 09:34 AM
KevinWalter was on the radio yesterday, talking about his experience in Cincinatti. The team had gone 2-14, then he goes to the team(from NewYork), MarvinLewis' first year as head coach, and they go 8-8. the following year, they are one game from the Superbowl.

he also mentioned they started the 2004 season 1-4, and finished 7-4 the rest of that year.

Marcus
10-18-2006, 10:12 AM
Read this (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/mcclain/4267282.html) and tell me why you think Kubiak should be blamed for the way things have gone so far.

The problem with this team, the core problem, is they simply don't have the talent. Horrible decisions from the Capers era have been thrown into Kubiak's lap.

Malloy
10-18-2006, 10:19 AM
Did everyone read the Chronicle article today? McNair and Smith said 2 different things about winning--

"Asked what he can do for the team in the offseason, Smith said: "We're not talking about the future. We're talking about right now. We're trying to do everything we can to win now. We're trying to win our next game against Jacksonville."

From McNair

"I want to win now, but I understand the situation. It takes time for a new coach and general manager to get the people they want in place. I know we're going to win. Hopefully, it's going to be sooner instead of later."

One says 'win right now,' the other says 'hopefully sooner than later.'



IMO these are not neccesarily opposites A coach should plan to win every single match, but at the same time look further ahead, plan the teams future. Only a mix of both plans will produce a successful team, not one or the other.

nunusguy
10-18-2006, 10:24 AM
He is off to a very poor start, and with his team getting blown out in all but
one of their first 5 games including the Cowboys game who many fans (for whatever reasons ?), have pointed to for 4 years, the negativety is very thick
right now. But we have to be patient and give him more time before we rush to judgements, conclusions, etc. about his potential. I know its not easy, this being the 5th year and all for the Texans.

GuerillaBlack
10-18-2006, 10:45 AM
Thanks Capers:

Here are just a few of the players the Texans could have selected rather than Gaffney: running backs Clinton Portis and Brian Westbrook; receivers Deion Branch, David Givens and Antwaan Randle El; and safety Michael Lewis.

Kaiser Toro
10-18-2006, 11:01 AM
In many ways he is different. Much like a surgeon using a different technique and being more proactive to help find a cure. After the surgery there is a rehab period, which we all know how much that stinks and is currently what we are going through.

threetoedpete
10-18-2006, 11:18 AM
Read this (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/mcclain/4267282.html) and tell me why you think Kubiak should be blamed for the way things have gone so far.

The problem with this team, the core problem, is they simply don't have the talent. Horrible decisions from the Capers era have been thrown into Kubiak's lap.

Yep what he said. The guy just got the mop out. It's a big poopie the last regime left behind. Give him a chance to clean it up.
want instant grtifacation ? Buy a dog. I have evey confidence that he can get this thing turned around. TBS, I am very troubled with this theme of the players we are picking up this year having to pass the coach sniff. Does this mean are scouts suck ? I thought they did pretty well last draft. I believe you go with what you know. I also belive familliarity breeds contempt. This is what got Capers into trouble. Casserly did what he was told to do. Kubiak is walking the same path. My advise, let the scouts judge the tallent. That's what they are there for.

gjmac2
10-18-2006, 11:37 AM
I one for one would really like to know what some of you people expected this season?

Seriously, did some of you people really think that by going 3-1 in the preseason that this was going to be a much better team this year?

Casserly and Capers were given way to long a grace period in deveolpoing this team. They got some good vetern players in the expansion draft, and with some good first round picks (Carr, Johnson, Robinson) were able to be competative in their 3rd year (7-9). The problem started when the veteren players started getting hurt, or were cut. Then the truth about the lousy drafts (Middle round picks, except for Domanick Davis) and poor personel decisions came to light, which is what happened last year.

My point is, Kubiak has to be given at least 2 to 3 years if not more before making a valid judgement on if he's the right man for the job. Right now it's painful because they are having to get rid of the junk that was here. I understand, because it stings to see high draft picks being cut, but it's neccessary. Give Kubiak 2 or 3 years worth of drafts, free agents and coaching before showing him the door.

Double Barrel
10-18-2006, 11:46 AM
Read this (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/mcclain/4267282.html) and tell me why you think Kubiak should be blamed for the way things have gone so far.

The problem with this team, the core problem, is they simply don't have the talent. Horrible decisions from the Capers era have been thrown into Kubiak's lap.

Exactly. You can't make a good wedding cake out of dog poo.

I guess the "Fire Kubiak Club" will start soon for some folks.

LBC_Justin
10-18-2006, 11:47 AM
How much differnet is Kubiak from Capers?? He promised a lot of changes, but has so far turned into a Capers clone in many ways:

1. He has one speciality, and the other is incredibly lacking (Capers couldn't coach offense, Kubiak can't coach the defense)

2. We see the same unimaginative playcalling week in and week out

3. Trying to committ to the run even if it isn't working

4. Going with a system rather than molding the system to his players

5. Lack of utilizing the TE in the passing game (the last 2 games)

6. Short dumpoffs and quick slants

7. Inability to make adjustments at half time

8. Playing to keep it close rather than to win.

I know its still early, but Kubes promised a lot in preseason, and we did well. Since the regular season, he has slowly morphed into Capers it would seem. What do you think?Your overreacting. Big time.

The play calling is COMPETELY DIFFERENT. So different that I question if you are even watching the games. I don't even understand why you wrote that.

The reality of the situation is that Kubiak recieved one of the least talented (if not the very least talented) group of guys in the NFL.

The losing is make them seem similar. But they are very different...Offense with the exception of last game is taking shots down field and the Defense is actually blitzing.

This roster needs to be cleansed. No one wants to hear it but it is going to take time for Kubiak to get the casserly and capers guys off the roster and get his own guys in.

Injuries aren't helping.

zeplin
10-18-2006, 11:53 AM
How much differnet is Kubiak from Capers?? He promised a lot of changes, but has so far turned into a Capers clone in many ways:

1. He has one speciality, and the other is incredibly lacking (Capers couldn't coach offense, Kubiak can't coach the defense)

that's how it is with most coaches. kubiak knows this and adjusts accordingly ... he drafts defense first and trusts the coaches on that side of the ball while he works with his strengths. capers meddled in the offense and messed it up, while ignoring his strength.

2. We see the same unimaginative playcalling week in and week out

they're opening up the playbook at a snails' pace as i noted in another thread. i'm not sure the reason for this.

3. Trying to committ to the run even if it isn't working

this is the NFL, you dont win if you cant run. even with a 20 point lead and 40+ carries, arizona lost because they couldnt run the ball even with a great RB.

4. Going with a system rather than molding the system to his players

this is a good thing and proven to work for more than a decade with his former team. kubiak's coming into a very untallented team and it's going to take time to find these players that fit the system.

5. Lack of utilizing the TE in the passing game (the last 2 games)

not sure what happened here, i figured putz would be carr's favorite target before the season started.

6. Short dumpoffs and quick slants

bad pass protection. it's a little better, only because carr's getting rid of the ball so quickly

7. Inability to make adjustments at half time

i agree with this one too, but i'm going to go homer and blame it on being a rookie.

8. Playing to keep it close rather than to win.

you're still stuck on capers. the few times we've been close, kubiak's still throwing the ball and trying to create a balanced attack.

I know its still early, but Kubes promised a lot in preseason, and we did well. Since the regular season, he has slowly morphed into Capers it would seem. What do you think?

I must agree with most of your rebuttal. The sytem is a proven winner in this league. Carr is playing way better this year and as he gets the new sytem it will be fun to watch him work.

Problems: Offensive line has no depth we get a couple of injuries and we are back to last years problems. Protection, protection, protection.
Running game is still a big issue. but if the line improves so will the running game. If you have read any of my older posts I have been a big promoter of shoring up the O line. D'brickshaw Fergusen would look good on the left side of our O- line.

tsip
10-18-2006, 12:51 PM
"The play calling is COMPETELY DIFFERENT. So different that I question if you are even watching the games. I don't even understand why you wrote that."

Ok, how is it completely different?

Texans_Chick
10-18-2006, 01:09 PM
How many times have you heard the comment we have to get the ball into David's hands. How David goes so goes the team. You know what? Kubiak is his own worst enemy.

Carr either can't develop or is not being allowed to develop. What you say? Yes, that is what I'm saying. I'm from the old school that says the QB is the leader on the field, the field general. As such he should be the one calling the plays. I'm not saying the coaching shouldn't have input, but in general the QB should be calling and listening to his players coming back to the huddle. When Carr did that on two occasions during the previous administration we were very successful. On the 1 yard line with a chance to open up the game, the ball should have been in Carr's hands to put maximum pressure on the defense. We had to trust his abilities at that point in the game. But Kubiak couldn't or wouldn't trust Carr.

All of the leadership and play calling appears to have been taken away from Carr. He can't even call audibles it appears. Coaches in the NFL have moved away from allowing the QB's to develop into signal callers and field Generals. The problem with that is the coaches don't have the on field reports. They don't see the game from the QB's prespective. The press box is not like being on the field. What appear to be right from the press box could be wrong when seen by the QB on the field. Let Carr sink or swim. A great coach is one who teaches his player how to play the game and lets him play the game. Its like being a parent. You can't be with your child every minute of the day.

Some of you would say Carr is no Payton Manning and I would agree with you right now. I would, however, say the following. Payton Manning is what he is because he was fortunate enough to be able to grow up in a nurturing environment. He was allowed to become the leader and play caller on the field. Obviously there were a number of factors, but the fact is he was allowed to win or loose on his own. When you make mistakes from your own play calling you learn what is best. Being spoon fed does not lead to an excellent decision maker or play caller. You never learn to make the critical decisions when help is not available. I could never understand a coaching staff yelling at a QB for not making the right decisions when they were never allowed to make decisions. Kubiak and Capers develop followers, not leaders.

As good as Brady is, he is also a follower. He does make some decisions - a lot more than Carr - but he is still a follower. He is not an indepent thinker on the field. He has to wait for the play call. Again, I have a prejudice and that is I want my QB to be a play caller. If he can't do the job, then I will find someone who can. But I know that is the only way I will have a leader on the field and that's what I need when the going gets rough and quick decisions have to be made. I don't want to have him wait for my decisions and I don't want delay penalties because they can't figure out what I called. I want a QB who can see something happening by the other team that allows him to catch them off guard by a quick decision. All of that happens when your QB is the decison maker.

I'm not saying Kubiak hasn't taught Carr a lot of things about the game. That's what Kubiak's job is to teach his QB how to play the game, but then he has to allow him to go play the game. He's there to point out during the course of the game what he is doing right or wrong and aid in decisions at critical parts of the game based on field input. The same is true for the defense. Leaders are developed because they learn to make decisions on the battle field.

Capers would not allow his players to make decisions except for Wong. In fact when we lost Wong, Capers was lost. He had no one to replace him on the field. Wong might be more important to this ball club than many think.

Kubiak uses the word "KID" far too often. These are not KIDS, but men or Young men. Yes, they need to be coached, but they are to be treated like men both from a mental and responsibility point of view. They are grown up, treat them like adults. Teach them to be decision makers, not followers. If you do that, you will have a great team.

When you say Kubiak is the same as Capers I agree in the above way. Capers never developed decision makers, Wong was a decision maker before he came here. The one person who became a decision maker under Capers was probably the one person we miss the most this year. That was DD. DD makes instance decisions and finds the holes or makes them whichever is necessary. We do not have a RB who has DD's capabilities, little lone, his ability to make decisions. In any event its time for the coaches and players to grow up. They need to trust each other. It is not a one way street.


Ibar. I know you like Carr. A lot. I think he can play, and I've seen improvement in his play this season (particularly in not taking unncessary sacks). But, your post is causing me mental distress because it is so off the mark. I have bolded the areas that are particularly damaging to the brain, tho just because I haven't bolded something, doesn't mean I agree with it--it just means it is normal strange instead of from the planet Bizarro or something.

The Texans ran the ball only 14 times last game. It just seemed like more because the runs were so terrible they cause post traumatic stress symptoms.

You want Carr to be in charge of calling the plays because he did it last year successfully? If you listen to his interview about that, he says they did that because the cobbled together playbook between the Pendry and Palmer stuff was so confusing that Pendry just threw up his hands and said you call it.

QBs and other offensive players do tell their coaches what is happening on the field.

Kubiak is going to give Carr as much responsibility has he believes Carr has earned. Last week was a regression. Kubiak is not just developing Carr, he is working with an entire team, and he has to find ways to make the entire team better. At this point, I see more improvement in Carr than with just about any other aspect of the team.

Texans_Chick
10-18-2006, 01:20 PM
Not being able to run the ball is not helping the playcalling.

The bootlegs don't work well. So they can't be a part of things.

As for the TEs v. WRs that is part of a match up thing. When they believe they have better matchups at the corners, they will use the WRs more than in some other games.

In a Denver system, you will have some fat TE stat games and some fat WR games--it really depends on the matchups that week because the offense is designed to attack mismatches. Carr after the Miami game said that the WR focus for that game was intentional.

Usually, Denver goes downfield after the underneath stuff has been working well. In the Cowboy game, that was hard to do for the Texans because of the way they were being covered and the fact that the weather conditions were ungood.

They need the consistent, unspectacular yards from the running game and they are not getting them. Typically, a ZBS avoids stuffs, but when you are getting stuffed a lot, you get into bad yardage situations.

The biggest difference between Capers ball and Kubiak, is that there are more available targets to throw to, and Kubiak is not doing max protect. Kubiak has been fairly conservative, but the team has given him little reason to earn his trust.

As for Putzier v. Daniels, the knock on Putzier coming outta Denver is that he could catch but couldn't block well. Daniels can do both. With an offensive line that isn't the most talented in the world, that matters. Putzier hasn't been a total loss because he has helped teach what the players need to do in the lockeroom.

Vinny
10-18-2006, 01:26 PM
Not being able to run the ball is not helping the playcalling.

The bootlegs don't work well. So they can't be a part of things.

As for the TEs v. WRs that is part of a match up thing. When they believe they have better matchups at the corners, they will use the WRs more than in some other games.

In a Denver system, you will have some fat TE stat games and some fat WR games--it really depends on the matchups that week because the offense is designed to attack mismatches. Carr after the Miami game said that the WR focus for that game was intentional.

Usually, Denver goes downfield after the underneath stuff has been working well. In the Cowboy game, that was hard to do for the Texans because of the way they were being covered and the fact that the weather conditions were ungood.

They need the consistent, unspectacular yards from the running game and they are not getting them. Typically, a ZBS avoids stuffs, but when you are getting stuffed a lot, you get into bad yardage situations.

The biggest difference between Capers ball and Kubiak, is that there are more available targets to throw to, and Kubiak is not doing max protect. Kubiak has been fairly conservative, but the team has given him little reason to earn his trust.

As for Putzier v. Daniels, the knock on Putzier coming outta Denver is that he could catch but couldn't block well. Daniels can do both. With an offensive line that isn't the most talented in the world, that matters. Putzier hasn't been a total loss because he has helped teach what the players need to do in the lockeroom.
Teams watch video and take away your strength....that is why you have to be good at more than one thing in the NFL...you can get away with being one dimensional in College or HS ball but not in the NFL. That's one reason the waggle and those short TE passes haven't been productive the last few games. Teams also cheat up on the run knowing we can't beat them vertically. Until we do I don't think we will be able to run well (consistantly that is). Its probably one of those chicken and egg things.

nunusguy
10-18-2006, 01:33 PM
The success or failure of Kubiaks rookie season, and more importantly fan morale going into the upcoming off season boils down to the teams performance in the last 4 or 5 games of the season. In that stretch is VYs first visit to Houston as a pro, a game at Oakland, and 2 more home games against the Colts and Browns.
If the team could finish strong it would be oh so important going into 2007.
If somehow, someway Kubiak could get a victory orver the Colts here in Reliant, that would be huge !
We're all feeling down right now after the nasty experience in N.Texas over the weekend, but it really is a long season. One that could seem longer than it already does, or one that could still finish strong and give us all hope and expectations for the future.

Caphorn
10-18-2006, 01:44 PM
Chick - I just get the overwhelming sense that Kubiak is too inexperienced to know what to do as a head coach. First, there were many revealing comments that indicate that Kubes really didn't understand Richard Smith's defense. Maybe he was just throwing Smith under the bus, but it seemed he had little or no knowledge or say in what we were doing defensively. I take strong issue with the head coach not taking responsibility for the direction of the defense from the start. Then, he's now got a coach on the offensive side - Sherman - who is clearly trying to do things with the OL that are not consistent with Kubes' scheme. Is Kubes really in charge of the OL?

This was a very tough first HC job to take for someone completely unprepared. I really wonder if going with a guy like Reeves would have at least allowed the team to rebuild from the Capers/Casserly disaster. To me, we are now heading forward without any clear direction. Not only that, our GM is somewhat beholden to our coach in that he got him the job. All of this lack of direction likely will just deepen negative issues if you think about it. Players like Seth Wand get run off because they don't fit the scheme (a scheme we don't seem to be fully employing). Who next? Other guys who have come here to win become more hardened and bitter - particularly if they are not inspired by the coaching staff or see positive directional change. Do you really think Dre re-signs with this team if Kubes doesn't lead it somewhere?

I have to say, the Team's play in the first 6 games - where we were completely not competitive in 5 of those games - does not suggest a team that is rebuilding on a positive path. Most NFL teams have only 3 or 4 games at the most each year of this sort. This is more suggestive of further entrenching a losing mentality and image into this organization. Not ready to say we are dead, but I would much rather have somebody with experience holding the strings at this point. As it is, we have a coach with alot of admitted uncertainly who has been given a great deal of control.

Texans_Chick
10-18-2006, 02:32 PM
Chick - I just get the overwhelming sense that Kubiak is too inexperienced to know what to do as a head coach. First, there were many revealing comments that indicate that Kubes really didn't understand Richard Smith's defense. Maybe he was just throwing Smith under the bus, but it seemed he had little or no knowledge or say in what we were doing defensively. I take strong issue with the head coach not taking responsibility for the direction of the defense from the start. Then, he's now got a coach on the offensive side - Sherman - who is clearly trying to do things with the OL that are not consistent with Kubes' scheme. Is Kubes really in charge of the OL?

This was a very tough first HC job to take for someone completely unprepared. I really wonder if going with a guy like Reeves would have at least allowed the team to rebuild from the Capers/Casserly disaster. To me, we are now heading forward without any clear direction. Not only that, our GM is somewhat beholden to our coach in that he got him the job. All of this lack of direction likely will just deepen negative issues if you think about it. Players like Seth Wand get run off because they don't fit the scheme (a scheme we don't seem to be fully employing). Who next? Other guys who have come here to win become more hardened and bitter - particularly if they are not inspired by the coaching staff or see positive directional change. Do you really think Dre re-signs with this team if Kubes doesn't lead it somewhere?

I have to say, the Team's play in the first 6 games - where we were completely not competitive in 5 of those games - does not suggest a team that is rebuilding on a positive path. Most NFL teams have only 3 or 4 games at the most each year of this sort. This is more suggestive of further entrenching a losing mentality and image into this organization. Not ready to say we are dead, but I would much rather have somebody with experience holding the strings at this point. As it is, we have a coach with alot of admitted uncertainly who has been given a great deal of control.


1. What comments are you talking about as it relates to Richard Smith? This is news to me.

2. Completely unprepared? Out of all the candidates out there that would be interested in a coach killing job like the Texans, I am happy with who we got.

3. The blowout losses are disturbing. This is what happens when you don't take care of the football, especially when you are facing good teams. It is not likely to get easier this weekend.

Vinny
10-18-2006, 02:42 PM
3. The blowout losses are disturbing. This is what happens when you don't take care of the football, especially when you are facing good teams. It is not likely to get easier this weekend.
The Cowboy game was tight till we just gave them the ball in our side of the field...then we seemed to just fall apart from there....kinda like the Cards did vs another good team on MNF the other day. Bad teams tend to do the same things over and over that make them bad teams.

SheTexan
10-18-2006, 03:01 PM
The Cowboy game was tight till we just gave them the ball in our side of the field...then we seemed to just fall apart from there....kinda like the Cards did vs another good team on MNF the other day. Bad teams tend to do the same things over and over that make them bad teams.

:twocents: the Cards did not fall apart Monday night. Urlacher and Co. proved why Denver has the #1 defense in the NFL. They refused to lose!!! The Cards played hard until the end. Blame the loss on Rackers if you want too, but not on the team as a whole. Two missed FGs=a loss!!

Vinny
10-18-2006, 03:03 PM
Didn't the Cards have multiple turnovers and break down in the return game? I'd call that falling apart in the second half.

Caphorn
10-18-2006, 03:13 PM
1. What comments are you talking about as it relates to Richard Smith? This is news to me.

2. Completely unprepared? Out of all the candidates out there that would be interested in a coach killing job like the Texans, I am happy with who we got.

3. The blowout losses are disturbing. This is what happens when you don't take care of the football, especially when you are facing good teams. It is not likely to get easier this weekend.

I am biased in that I never liked the Kubiak hire. Not because he was an aggy, but I felt pretty strongly that the real show was run by Shanahan in Denver. To me, reading your blog story is just more confirmation that it was Shanahan's system - and maybe Kubes isn't that good at recreating it - especially the critically important blocking schemes.

As for your counter-points:

1. Not meaning to be too harsh, but after the Washington debacle, I thought Kubes made clear that coaching the D was Richard Smith's job. Saying he was defending his coach is different from what he did which was to make clear this was Richard's baby, not his. How bout this quote: "I spent a lot of time with Richard and the defense today," he said. "My message is what can I do to help? I have to be there any way I can to help them get better. If it's finding a player or helping them with the scheme, I've got to do what I can so they can be effective." I know there are other quotes where he made clear that he hasn't spent much time with the defense. That doesn't sound like a coach who's on top of his defense and directing the show. He really refers to this is "their" defense quite often.

2. Unprepared is kind of a judgment call. I can accept that you might still think he was the best candidate. I always thought his position as OC at Denver was really and Assistant OC. I don't recall the offense ever being put on his shoulders. That's a different ball of wax from what he ran into with Shanahan. I think he should have had his own OC gig before he was moved up the ladder.

3. The blowout losses show a lack of competitiveness that goes beyond just making mistakes IMO. Turnovers are part of the game. Good teams don't turn the ball over so much. Frankly, this team didn't hand the ball over the Dallas -- it was dominated by a far superior opponent. The second half was as ugly an example of utter domination as I've seen in awhile.

edo783
10-18-2006, 03:14 PM
IMO, the Cards became interested in not losing the game in the second half rather than winning the game. Whole different mind set regarding not making mistakes that almost invariably winds up causing mistakes. If they would have kept calling the type of plays that they were in the first half, they very likely would have one. Kind of like the prevent defense a prevent offense.....IMO, just prevents winning.

Runner
10-18-2006, 03:18 PM
IMO, the Cards became interested in not losing the game in the second half rather than winning the game. Whole different mind set regarding not making mistakes that almost invariably winds up causing mistakes. If they would have kept calling the type of plays that they were in the first half, they very likely would have one. Kind of like the prevent defense a prevent offense.....IMO, just prevents winning.

Maybe the coaches didn't want to make their players feel bad if they were aggressive and failed. They may have some fragile egos on that perennial loser. :)

Vinny
10-18-2006, 03:20 PM
IMO, the Cards became interested in not losing the game in the second half rather than winning the game. Whole different mind set regarding not making mistakes that almost invariably winds up causing mistakes. If they would have kept calling the type of plays that they were in the first half, they very likely would have one. Kind of like the prevent defense a prevent offense.....IMO, just prevents winning.If they don't turn the ball over and don't fall asleep on special teams they win that game.

thunderkyss
10-18-2006, 03:23 PM
The Cowboy game was tight till we just gave them the ball in our side of the field...then we seemed to just fall apart from there....kinda like the Cards did vs another good team on MNF the other day. Bad teams tend to do the same things over and over that make them bad teams.

Philly, Washington, & Miami were good games up till the half. Miami we pulled ahead and won, Philly..... we lost by two touchdowns... which is bad, considering we didn't score in the second half.

Had we come out in the second half against Washington, and not gone 3 & out, that would've been a much different game as well.

tsip
10-18-2006, 03:30 PM
"In case ya hadnt noticed.. Kubiak considers us to be in a rebuilding stage.. and hes right to think that way.. we are still building talent on this team."

Last year, when myself and others mentioned 'rebuilding', we were given the :homer: 's 'burning at the stake.' Those posters insisted we just needed a 'tweak' here and there--with most of the same players under Kubiak-and we' d be on our way to winning and the playoffs, probably this year....

Wow, what a difference a year makes!! Now, the :homer: 's say 'rebuilding.' And, like last year, I agree.

If you want, I'll round up some of those posts.

Grid, I don't know where you stood last year on 'rebuilding'--just picked your post because you mention it this year.:cool:

Vinny
10-18-2006, 03:30 PM
Maybe the coaches didn't want to make their players feel bad if they were aggressive and failed. They may have some fragile egos on that perennial loser. :)greeeat, we have the demeanor of Burt and Earnie.

Double Barrel
10-18-2006, 03:43 PM
Urlacher and Co. proved why Denver has the #1 defense in the NFL.

Denver has the no. 1 defense in the NFL? :confused: ;)

2. Unprepared is kind of a judgment call. I can accept that you might still think he was the best candidate. I always thought his position as OC at Denver was really and Assistant OC. I don't recall the offense ever being put on his shoulders. That's a different ball of wax from what he ran into with Shanahan. I think he should have had his own OC gig before he was moved up the ladder.

Wrong.

Early in the week, Spurrier resorted to asking advice from another head coach, Denver Broncosí Mike Shanahan. Spurrier, portrayed by many as arrogant when it comes to his offense, wanted to know how Shanahan handled play-calling duties with Broncosí offensive coordinator Gary Kubiak.

When Shanahan told Spurrier that the Broncos immediately won two Super Bowls when Kubiak took over calling plays, the second-year Redskinsí coach didnít need any more convincing.

Source (http://www.winchesterstar.com/TheWinchesterStar/031111/Sports_coles.asp)

ThaShark316
10-18-2006, 03:46 PM
LMAO, this is classic...now we won't even give Kubiak a chance? This is why i can't take Houston sports fans serious anymore....It's gotten really stupid.


I understand the frustration. Trust me, I'm just as upset about they way we've played in the 4 games we've lost. But, to 2nd guess the hire of Kubiak is borderline crazy.

*waits for after the Jaguars loss to the Texans how attitudes change around here*

thunderkyss
10-18-2006, 03:56 PM
Last year, when myself and others mentioned 'rebuilding', we were given the :homer: 's 'burning at the stake.' Those posters insisted we just needed a 'tweak' here and there--with most of the same players under Kubiak-and we' d be on our way to winning and the playoffs, probably this year....

Wow, what a difference a year makes!! Now, the :homer: 's say 'rebuilding.' And, like last year, I agree.


to be fair, we said with the moves we made in the offseason, we were just re-tooling. We kept our core player, and only added a few in FA. Then a few more in the draft.......

When we started loosing players in the preseason, and more due to injury, and whatnot..... we've lost too many starters to not call it rebuilding.

Caphorn
10-18-2006, 04:00 PM
I'm not saying that Kubiak should not be given a chance. But I also am not willing to just assume he's a good hire because he worked for winning organization and is a hometown boy or because Bob McNair and Charley Casserly thought he was a good hire. That smacks of homerism - particularly given the early results. In other words, it better change fast or his leash should be short. In my judgment, you don't get regularly embarassed if you are worth your salt as a coach, so this better end fast.

Now lets put this back on the fans that support Kubes no matter what - what improvement have you seen in the team to date with Kubes in charge? About the only improvement I see is with David. That's a big improvement, but that just shows me he is a good QB coach. I already pretty much knew that. Otherwise, I see a team very willing to capitulate and fall apart when things don't go there way. Not what I was hoping for and you can't throw 100% of this at the players.

Caphorn
10-18-2006, 04:03 PM
Double Barrell - it was always Shanahan/Kubiak sharing responsibility for the offense (albeit Kubes was calling plays). There's alot more to being an OC than just calling plays though. Kubiak has never been asked to institute a system elsewhere or bring his system to another team. He basically learned the system from Shanahan and filled a role for him. There are also articles talking about how the important part of that scheme - the zone blocking aspect - fell to Shanahan and another assistant. Not Kubiak. Cite me to sources showing me I am wrong about that.

Meloy
10-18-2006, 04:33 PM
In August I would have taken a 5 win season, if the team played well. We had new players at many positions. New management at almost every area. A rookie @ DE and another @ MLB, two of the most important positions. Starting free safety is in his 2nd year. A rookie started @ TE & another @ running back. Still another at left tackle if only for a short time. If seven games from now we have 5 wins, good enough. I do want to see much better play from all individuals. IMO, only Demeco grades out @ A+.

cuppacoffee
10-18-2006, 05:52 PM
edit: nevermind.

I agree with scooter.

:coffee:

TexanLen
10-18-2006, 06:04 PM
Kubes does need more time. I think he is a good hire. As a Texan fan and a football fan in general, it does get frustrating to watch this team play. Capers has ruined Carr. Yes, he is playing better, but he is in his 5th year!!! When i look at Matt Leinart, Rivers, Rothlesburger, E. Manning, and even VY, they have all this swagger and confidence i wish we had in a QB. They may have a better team around them, but you can see the difference in the way they look, on the field and on the side lines. Carr looks like a deer in headlights. All this because he has been running and on the turf his whole 4 year carreer because of who the coaching staff put on the line.

I agree with everyone that we need 3 years with Kubiak. In 3 years, this will be a totally different team, including possibly the QB. If the team is still losing, then we need to talk about firing Kubiak. Not now!!!

Erratic Assassin
10-18-2006, 10:14 PM
How much differnet is Kubiak from Capers??


Contrary to what Dan Reeves told McNair, our problem wasn't the coach, our problem is the players.

No one could coach these players. Casserly wasted 5 offseasons.

Can we finally admit that Joppru is a bust?

Tulip
10-18-2006, 10:50 PM
Every game I've watched (3 of them in person) this year has given me an odd sense of deja vu. And I wouldn't have expected that from two head coaches whose fortes are on opposite sides of the ball.

I can't believe both coaches react to the cover 2 in the same way. I can't believe that neither coach believes in the power of chucking the ball deep down the field a couple of times a game.

I also don't think that going Chainsaw Al on this team was the best move either. It seems like there were lots of cuts made without upgrades at the same position. It also seems like there's a lot of dead money left over. And the body count keeps rising even though we're in Week 7.

I don't know. It just doesn't feel like this team is going anywhere. I'm getting a little restless.

BigDTexansFan
10-18-2006, 11:04 PM
How much differnet is Kubiak from Capers?? He promised a lot of changes, but has so far turned into a Capers clone in many ways:

1. He has one speciality, and the other is incredibly lacking (Capers couldn't coach offense, Kubiak can't coach the defense)

2. We see the same unimaginative playcalling week in and week out

3. Trying to committ to the run even if it isn't working

4. Going with a system rather than molding the system to his players

5. Lack of utilizing the TE in the passing game (the last 2 games)

6. Short dumpoffs and quick slants

7. Inability to make adjustments at half time

8. Playing to keep it close rather than to win.

I know its still early, but Kubes promised a lot in preseason, and we did well. Since the regular season, he has slowly morphed into Capers it would seem. What do you think?


WHAT DO I THINK.....I think we got a bunch of babies need wet nursing or a sugar teat...we want to win NOW!!! not next year we don't care if you build us a team that lasts for next 5 years like New England Patriots Mr. Kubiak, we will hold our breath until we turn blue and roll on floor throwing a tantrum because you didn't wave your magic wand and make us.......WIN RIGHT NOW!!!

EXCUSE ME, got to go throw up at childish immaturity of a generation raised on fast food and I want it now ME ME ME

Ibar_Harry
10-19-2006, 12:24 AM
Ibar. I know you like Carr. A lot. I think he can play, and I've seen improvement in his play this season (particularly in not taking unncessary sacks). But, your post is causing me mental distress because it is so off the mark. I have bolded the areas that are particularly damaging to the brain, tho just because I haven't bolded something, doesn't mean I agree with it--it just means it is normal strange instead of from the planet Bizarro or something.

The Texans ran the ball only 14 times last game. It just seemed like more because the runs were so terrible they cause post traumatic stress symptoms.

You want Carr to be in charge of calling the plays because he did it last year successfully? If you listen to his interview about that, he says they did that because the cobbled together playbook between the Pendry and Palmer stuff was so confusing that Pendry just threw up his hands and said you call it.

QBs and other offensive players do tell their coaches what is happening on the field.

Kubiak is going to give Carr as much responsibility has he believes Carr has earned. Last week was a regression. Kubiak is not just developing Carr, he is working with an entire team, and he has to find ways to make the entire team better. At this point, I see more improvement in Carr than with just about any other aspect of the team.

Yes, and he needs to be able to focus on other parts of his team while the QB leads the offense. Again, this is a difference in Philosophy as much as anythng. I believe the QB has to lead the offense and that means calling the plays. Manning is the complete QB, because he can and does call the plays. He is a field general. Carr needs the opportunity to develop that skill to aid Kubiak. When you are making the plays it keeps your head in the game and focused. Have someone calling the plays is like having someone tell you where to move the pieces during a chess match. You might be able to move the pieces, but you probably have no idea why its being done. As I have stated, I want the QB, whoever he is, calling the plays. I want a leader on the field.

Scooter
10-19-2006, 03:34 AM
Contrary to what Dan Reeves told McNair, our problem wasn't the coach, our problem is the players.

No one could coach these players. Casserly wasted 5 offseasons.

Can we finally admit that Joppru is a bust?

our talent level is/was extremely poor, but dont let capers, fangio, palmer, & pendry off the hook. our coaching staff was just as pathetic as the players. the only thing getting us wins was veterans on defense and DD carrying the offense.

touttail
10-19-2006, 07:43 AM
I totally agree with IBAR.

I think the QB should be the team general and call most of the plays.

It is a shame that most NFL coaches want total control of the play calling.

bobby 119C

Texan1
10-19-2006, 07:56 AM
Kubiak will be the man - give him time.

He's made one mistake - he will always have to answer the 'what if' question for not picking Bush though. And not selecting Bush will slow down his rebuilding effort.

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 08:44 AM
I'm not saying that Kubiak should not be given a chance. But I also am not willing to just assume he's a good hire because he worked for winning organization and is a hometown boy or because Bob McNair and Charley Casserly thought he was a good hire.

If this is the way you felt when we were waiting for Denver to finish their play-off run, so we can announce that we've awarded the HC job to GK, then that's fine, that's understandable. IT's a valid opinion. Many of us felt differently, becuase of his work with successful organiztions, and his history with QBs. Personally for me, it was a plus that he was a player(I like coaches who played the game)..... a QB at that.

That smacks of homerism - particularly given the early results.

Why, were you expecting us to be 4-2 at this point in the season?? he had three weeks to teach these guys how to play football the right way, taking them all back to square one, and he's supposed to run through teams like the #1 rated offense(Philly, 26th Defense), the #4 offense(Indy, 20th defense), the #11 offense(Washington, 22nd defense), the #21 rated offense(Miami, 4th defense), and the #6 rated offense(Dallas, 8th Defense).

In other words, it better change fast or his leash should be short. In my judgment, you don't get regularly embarassed if you are worth your salt as a coach, so this better end fast.


Again..... understandable, if you thought/think our players are decent, and were cautious of GK back in the day.

Now lets put this back on the fans that support Kubes no matter what - what improvement have you seen in the team to date with Kubes in charge? About the only improvement I see is with David. That's a big improvement, but that just shows me he is a good QB coach. I already pretty much knew that.

David's playing better. It's easy to see, because he has the ball more than anyone else on our team. fumbling and bumbling through 4 games... and he gets this game, where he looked...... better. His numbers have been good, etc. The Oline.... it's hard to tell, because our QB is still getting sacked, and we are having difficulty running the ball. It's also hard to tell, when we've had at least one new starter every week since Week1. But watching them in SlowMo, you can see what they've been working on in their off week. They are moving well together, we have very few penalties on the offensive line.

DL, we change something every week, but we've sacked McNabb(1), Peyton(2), Culpepper(5), Bledsoe(2)....... not bad. we're not leading the league, but 2 sacks/game should be pretty respectable. & Mario was in Bledsoe's face all day.

LBs... Demeco is the real deal. Orr stepped it up this past Sunday

DBS..(??)None of the Dallas recievers had more than 50 yards this past Sunday..... granted they probably avg'd starting on our 30... but hey...

I'm seeing enough steady improvement on our team to keep me happy. The only place I've been disappointed, is in the play from our DBs, and our reluctance to address the problem.

Otherwise, I see a team very willing to capitulate and fall apart when things don't go there way. Not what I was hoping for and you can't throw 100% of this at the players.
True.....

Contrary to what Dan Reeves told McNair, our problem wasn't the coach, our problem is the players.

No one could coach these players. Casserly wasted 5 offseasons.

Can we finally admit that Joppru is a bust?
For one, I'm not happy with some of our players approach to their coaching. So what you don't like the 3-4, and you'd rather be playing in a 4-3. We're paying you to play in a 4-3. Suck it up, and do the best that you can. Even if the ultimate goal is to be traded to a team that plays a 4-3, if you suck in a 3-4, who's going to pay you to see if you still suck in a 4-3?? other than Houston??

Offensively, I thought we've always had the talent to be better than 8-8.


Yes, and he needs to be able to focus on other parts of his team while the QB leads the offense. Again, this is a difference in Philosophy as much as anythng. I believe the QB has to lead the offense and that means calling the plays. Manning is the complete QB, because he can and does call the plays. He is a field general. Carr needs the opportunity to develop that skill to aid Kubiak.

I agree with some of this. It would be nice, if Carr could call the plays. But right now, only one QB in the NFL calls his own plays. Only one QB in the history of the NFL, that I know of calls his own plays to the extent of that one guy.

From a coaches standpoint, it is very much like playing Chess. Kubiak & Parcells put their pieces in position to make plays. It's up to the players to execute.

But there are plenty of field generals (Elway, Aikman, Montana, Kelly, Brady, Palmer, Leftwhich, etc...) that don't call their own plays.

If it is even possible for Carr to earn that responsibility, he'll have to come to the sideline, and explain to his coach what he sees, and what he thinks will work. Sooner or later, the coach is going to trust him, and go with his suggestion. The more frequently that happens, the sooner he can start calling his own audibles. When he starts calling audibles with success, he can start working on calling his own plays. that's the way it happened with Manning. Jim Mora didn't just say,"Okay, I'm sending you out there on offense, what personnel should I send with you??" It's something that he's earned over time.

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 08:53 AM
I totally agree with IBAR.

I think the QB should be the team general and call most of the plays.

It is a shame that most NFL coaches want total control of the play calling.

bobby 119C

Because it's not that easy(unless we're talking about Madden). You've got different personnel, for different plays. How's it gonna look if Carr wants to call a deep passing route when Kubiak put the short yardage personell on the field??

John Elway, BubbyBrister, TommyMaddux, BrianGriese...... etc... they've all had the ability to call audibles.... So far, it looks like there is only one QB Kubiak does not trust to call audibles. maybe that's part of his training..... & maybe it's something Kubiak needs to develop....

Maybe our boy doesn't understand the game as he should. After all, this is the second HC, and third OC that hasn't allowed him to call an audible......

I think it's too early to say, but when I see Sage Rosenfleds get on the field with 4 WRs and a single back..... it makes you wonder.

srstex
10-19-2006, 09:26 AM
Kubes does need more time. I think he is a good hire. As a Texan fan and a football fan in general, it does get frustrating to watch this team play. Capers has ruined Carr. Yes, he is playing better, but he is in his 5th year!!! When i look at Matt Leinart, Rivers, Rothlesburger, E. Manning, and even VY, they have all this swagger and confidence i wish we had in a QB. They may have a better team around them, but you can see the difference in the way they look, on the field and on the side lines. Carr looks like a deer in headlights. All this because he has been running and on the turf his whole 4 year carreer because of who the coaching staff put on the line.

I agree with everyone that we need 3 years with Kubiak. In 3 years, this will be a totally different team, including possibly the QB. If the team is still losing, then we need to talk about firing Kubiak. Not now!!!

There is one MAJOR flaw in your post, Steeler, Charger,Titan, & Giant defenses make us look like little leaguers, although the Giant D has not played to last years level. When the Titans play us, they bring a D that kept the Colts close, we haven't done that in two years. In short if your QB's were on the sideline as long as Carr would you still say the same.

Marcus
10-19-2006, 09:34 AM
WHAT DO I THINK.....I think we got a bunch of babies need wet nursing or a sugar teat...we want to win NOW!!! not next year we don't care if you build us a team that lasts for next 5 years like New England Patriots Mr. Kubiak, we will hold our breath until we turn blue and roll on floor throwing a tantrum because you didn't wave your magic wand and make us.......WIN RIGHT NOW!!!

EXCUSE ME, got to go throw up at childish immaturity of a generation raised on fast food and I want it now ME ME ME

:thumbup :perfect10:

srstex
10-19-2006, 09:45 AM
At 1 & 4 letting Carr call the plays couldn't hurt. Ya'll want to give Kubiak 3 more years and yet you don't want Carr calling the plays in at least one game ? I like bringing up New Orleans because they were in a simular situation at the beginning of the season, new head caoch, new defense, new offense, new center,new RB, new punt/kick returner, but that all changed when the real season started as NO came out to win and Kubiak was lost. Look back at the Eagle game, we march down to score then go 3/4 and out, due to the lack of a running game, and he continues to do this. We scored first against the Cowboys, then "let's prove we can run", we can't, we punt, we get the ball back, and prove it again. If it works don't fix it. if it doesn't work move on.
Just a thought, when the season ticket sales go down and the games are no longer televised who will Kubiak blame then.

chuckm
10-19-2006, 09:47 AM
Maybe our boy doesn't understand the game as he should. After all, this is the second HC, and third OC that hasn't allowed him to call an audible......

Do you have a quote for this assertion? And I don't mean from another MB poster ....



I think it's too early to say, but when I see Sage Rosenfleds get on the field with 4 WRs and a single back..... it makes you wonder.

What does this make you wonder? Why we would be in a 4 Wide set down by 20-something points with little or no time left? Please expound ...

infantrycak
10-19-2006, 10:03 AM
I believe the QB has to lead the offense and that means calling the plays. Manning is the complete QB, because he can and does call the plays. He is a field general.

You are so off base and have been told this repeatedly before. NO NFL QB calls his own plays on a consistant basis. Manning does not call his own plays. The OC sends in a three play package--usually two passing, one running. Manning is then supposed to pick between the plays based on reading the D on largely predetermined reads. Aikman wasn't even allowed to audible during the SB years. No QB goes into the huddle and picks the play all on his own.

infantrycak
10-19-2006, 10:06 AM
Do you have a quote for this assertion? And I don't mean from another MB poster ....

No he doesn't because it isn't true.

real
10-19-2006, 10:18 AM
You are so off base and have been told this repeatedly before. NO NFL QB calls his own plays on a consistant basis. Manning does not call his own plays. The OC sends in a three play package--usually two passing, one running. Manning is then supposed to pick between the plays based on reading the D on largely predetermined reads. Aikman wasn't even allowed to audible during the SB years. No QB goes into the huddle and picks the play all on his own.

Just repsosting for ummphhh....

edo783
10-19-2006, 12:01 PM
You are so off base and have been told this repeatedly before. NO NFL QB calls his own plays on a consistant basis. Manning does not call his own plays. The OC sends in a three play package--usually two passing, one running. Manning is then supposed to pick between the plays based on reading the D on largely predetermined reads. Aikman wasn't even allowed to audible during the SB years. No QB goes into the huddle and picks the play all on his own.

Double ohmmfff, just in case it was missed the first and second time.

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 01:07 PM
Do you have a quote for this assertion? And I don't mean from another MB poster ....

Fine, let's do it your way. Let's say Kubiak has given David the lattitude to change a play at the LOS. Heck, let's say it's you behind center. Coach called a run to the right. Owen Daniels is sread far right, and covering him is the OLB GregEllis. Do You:

1. call for Owen Daniels to motion to RT, bringing said OLB closer to the line
2. run the play leaving Owen Daniels & said OLB out there hugging the sideline
3. audible to a pass play with OwenDaniels isolated on a big ole LB, that can't run with OwenDaniel.

I'd much rather believe that David can't call audibles yet, than to believe he chose the worse of the three options.

What does this make you wonder? Why we would be in a 4 Wide set down by 20-something points with little or no time left? Please expound ...

You're right. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Kubiak would do with David in that same situation......... hmmm...

MightyTExan
10-19-2006, 01:15 PM
I don't see a lot of audibles in the Broncos offense. They set at the line, maybe motion and go.

Mr teX
10-19-2006, 02:05 PM
Read this (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/mcclain/4267282.html) and tell me why you think Kubiak should be blamed for the way things have gone so far.

The problem with this team, the core problem, is they simply don't have the talent. Horrible decisions from the Capers era have been thrown into Kubiak's lap.

I can't figure out why people can't see this. It's going to take time whether you want to wait or not. Period

chuckm
10-19-2006, 04:23 PM
Fine, let's do it your way. Let's say Kubiak has given David the lattitude to change a play at the LOS. Heck, let's say it's you behind center. Coach called a run to the right. Owen Daniels is sread far right, and covering him is the OLB GregEllis. Do You:

1. call for Owen Daniels to motion to RT, bringing said OLB closer to the line
2. run the play leaving Owen Daniels & said OLB out there hugging the sideline
3. audible to a pass play with OwenDaniels isolated on a big ole LB, that can't run with OwenDaniel.

I'd much rather believe that David can't call audibles yet, than to believe he chose the worse of the three options.

ok so you don't have a quote from a "reliable non-MB poster" source .... this is your own opinion which will be backed up with as much text as your fingers can produce .... is that right?

You're right. I guess we'll have to wait and see what Kubiak would do with David in that same situation......... hmmm...

deal ..... hmmmmmm

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 08:56 PM
ok so you don't have a quote from a "reliable non-MB poster" source .... this is your own opinion which will be backed up with as much text as your fingers can produce .... is that right?

5 games. Do you remember seeing David audible once in five games?? Does that seem normal to you??



deal ..... hmmmmmm

The point is that David has been in that situation 3 times.... Philly, Indy, and Washington...... no 4 WRs, no single back.....

hmmm...

chuckm
10-19-2006, 09:05 PM
5 games. Do you remember seeing David audible once in five games?? Does that seem normal to you??


I gotta be honest with you man I'm not privy to the calls in the huddle or at the line .... are you?

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 09:23 PM
I gotta be honest with you man I'm not privy to the calls in the huddle or at the line .... are you?

Doesn't matter. 5 NFL games, without an audible is a rarity.

People want to know why we can't use our passing game to substitute for the running game??

Because we don't call audibles...... we can't take advantage of obvious mismatches.

chuckm
10-19-2006, 09:25 PM
Doesn't matter. 5 NFL games, without an audible is a rarity.

People want to know why we can't use our passing game to substitute for the running game??

Because we don't call audibles...... we can't take advantage of obvious mismatches.

So you know for a fact that Carr is forbidden to audible? ...... head immediately to www.titansonline.com and don't come back .....

infantrycak
10-19-2006, 09:37 PM
Doesn't matter. 5 NFL games, without an audible is a rarity.

People want to know why we can't use our passing game to substitute for the running game??

Because we don't call audibles...... we can't take advantage of obvious mismatches.

It isn't a rarity--it is a non-fact. There have been audibles.

By the way coaches have hugely different ideas about audibles. As mentioned previously, Aikman who is considered one of the smarter guys to play the position, wasn't allowed to audible at all under JJ. That wasn't a sign he was dumb, it was the system.

And no I am not going to go back and disprove your tripe "there have been no audibles assertion" so carry on with it over and over like your "we have a pretty good running game" campaign.

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 09:45 PM
So you know for a fact that Carr is forbidden to audible? ...... head immediately to www.titansonline.com and don't come back .....

I never said he I know for a fact that he is forbidden to audible. I said I know for a fact that he hasn't...... Either way you look at it, being by his design, or Kubiaks, it doesn't look good. Either the Coach don't let him, or he failed to do so in situations when we got mismatches that would favor us.



And no I am not going to go back and disprove your tripe "there have been no audibles assertion" so carry on with it over and over like your "we have a pretty good running game" campaign.

Fine. you don't want to go back and prove me wrong.

Anyone else remember David calling an audible of any kind during a regular season game?? If so, which one?? what happened??

& thankyou for your permission to carry on.

infantrycak
10-19-2006, 10:23 PM
I said I know for a fact that he hasn't......

BS. Seriously you need to lay off the crack pipe or try to take somewhat outlying positions to be controversial instead of just plain whack ones.

Whatever--the running game is good, Carr never audibles, Buchanon is our best DB--I hope folks are draining your credibiliy meter down.

thunderkyss
10-20-2006, 10:56 AM
BS. Seriously you need to lay off the crack pipe or try to take somewhat outlying positions to be controversial instead of just plain whack ones.

Whatever--the running game is good, Carr never audibles, Buchanon is our best DB--I hope folks are draining your credibiliy meter down.

You're right, I found an audible........ washington game.
2nd QTR
6:18 1st & 20 3WR, single back.
the CBs are 10 yards off the ball, the safeties are 15 yards off the ball. Carr checks to another play.
a line backer lined up on PUtz(in the slot) moves down, showing Blitz. Carr hollers at PUtz, Putz waves at Carr, they snap the ball, and Carr delivers a 4 yard pass to Putz. Jeb then runs away from the approaching LB, and gains another 8 yards before he is tackled.

So I was wrong. It's not that David Can't call audibles, he just missed obvious situations to check out of running plays that weren't working, to take advantage of obvious mismatches that were in our favor.

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 11:04 AM
You're right, I found an audible........ washington game.
2nd QTR
6:18 1st & 20 3WR, single back.
the CBs are 10 yards off the ball, the safeties are 15 yards off the ball. Carr checks to another play.
a line backer lined up on PUtz(in the slot) moves down, showing Blitz. Carr hollers at PUtz, Putz waves at Carr, they snap the ball, and Carr delivers a 4 yard pass to Putz. Jeb then runs away from the approaching LB, and gains another 8 yards before he is tackled.

So I was wrong. It's not that David Can't call audibles, he just missed obvious situations to check out of running plays that weren't working, to take advantage of obvious mismatches that were in our favor.

You can't read the friggin play by plays and find out if he audibled--you have to watch the games.

thunderkyss
10-20-2006, 11:23 AM
You can't read the friggin play by plays and find out if he audibled--you have to watch the games.

how does any of that make you think I'm watching the play by play?? I'm telling you the LB moved down to rush the passer, that Carr stepped back from center, and hollered in the direction of Putz, and that Putz waved back at David.

I'm watching the washington game right now.

chuckm
10-20-2006, 11:33 AM
how does any of that make you think I'm watching the play by play?? I'm telling you the LB moved down to rush the passer, that Carr stepped back from center, and hollered in the direction of Putz, and that Putz waved back at David.

I'm watching the washington game right now.

step away from the keyboard .... some nice men in white coats are on their way .... they can help you ....