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TexanSam
10-16-2006, 10:48 PM
Let's say we go 3-13 this season and we go 4-12 next season and aren't making lots of progress. Would you as fans want the team, if we have room to spend, to try and make high impact signings in free agency? Kind of like what the Panthers and Jaguars did when they came into the league. I know most teams like to build through the draft rather than through free agency, but after year after year of losing, would you be willing to have one or two good years and then go into salary cap hell for the next three seasons?

My answer is yes. I'm tired of losing, and if we don't show any progress I'll be happy with a year or two of good teams even if we have to suffer again a few years later.

TPIMP
10-16-2006, 10:56 PM
Let's say we go 3-13 this season and we go 4-12 next season and aren't making lots of progress. Would you as fans want the team, if we have room to spend, to try and make high impact signings in free agency? Kind of like what the Panthers and Jaguars did when they came into the league. I know most teams like to build through the draft rather than through free agency, but after year after year of losing, would you be willing to have one or two good years and then go into salary cap hell for the next three seasons?

My answer is yes. I'm tired of losing, and if we don't show any progress I'll be happy with a year or two of good teams even if we have to suffer again a few years later.

Unfortunatly there will never again be as much talent in free agency as there was in those days for Jacksonville and Carolina. Washington has tried to do the same thing without much success.

Goldeagle
10-16-2006, 10:57 PM
Yes, by that time we need to bring in Impact players to help those decent players we have.

Im optimistic despite, we are living through the Casserly and Capers era still, so in 2-3 years who knows. Heck if DD is healthy or we get Peterson and God help him with his health, Imagine with AJ, and Carr with a run game?

Scooter
10-16-2006, 11:09 PM
yes, but i'm at that point right now. i want us to throw every spare penny at offensive linemen.

Mattheus_Rex
10-16-2006, 11:58 PM
yes, but i'm at that point right now. i want us to throw every spare penny at offensive linemen.

Yes, but you also have to have the same guys play together for a while. If we keep swapping out linemen year after year, we will never make any progress.

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-17-2006, 12:02 AM
I know Carr is improving but if you guys go 3-13 or 4-12, it's time to get a new quarterback.

In my opinion, winning a game in the NFL is about 50% desire. If the REST of the team doesn't think David Carr is a winner and they go into the game every week thinking that, then they will lose the game.

If this season turns out horribly, you guys need a new leader. QBs that are good make impact on the field and off the field and the rest of the team must be behind their QB to win. (in most cases)

TexanSam
10-17-2006, 12:04 AM
I know Carr is improving but if you guys go 3-13 or 4-12, it's time to get a new quarterback.

In my opinion, winning a game in the NFL is about 50% desire. If the REST of the team doesn't think David Carr is a winner and they go into the game every week thinking that, then they will lose the game.

If this season turns out horribly, you guys need a new leader. QBs that are good make impact on the field and off the field and the rest of the team must be behind their QB to win. (in most cases)

I think that depends on how we would play this season. Carr was not bad through the Miami game. He was bad in the Dallas game, but in the other's I thought he showed improvement. If Carr continues to improve this season and our secondary still plays like crud, and our D-line still can't pressure the QB then it's not Carr's fault.

rittenhouserobz
10-17-2006, 12:26 AM
In regard to the inital question. No I would not like to see them try and piece together talent. I think the Texans will achieve their goals by the draft and a couple of free agents. I think the greatest impact would be having an OL that was exactly the same for a year or two. After this year, much of the OL will also have more experience with the zone blocking scheme. I hope that helps us as well.

mancunian
10-17-2006, 07:32 AM
In regard to the inital question. No I would not like to see them try and piece together talent. I think the Texans will achieve their goals by the draft and a couple of free agents. I think the greatest impact would be having an OL that was exactly the same for a year or two. After this year, much of the OL will also have more experience with the zone blocking scheme. I hope that helps us as well.
Injury hasn't helped either. Spencer gone for the year, Flanagan missed a couple of games, McKinney is not fit. Winston is a Rookie.
I agree we need to build through the draft and pick up a couple of FA's here and there.

I'd rather do what the Bears have done though build a dominant D so that your Offence doesn't have to do a lot at all.
You can also be more aggressive on offence that way - take shots down field and hey if you have to punt or turn the ball over you know your D will stop the opposition.....

Marcus
10-17-2006, 08:10 AM
I just want a front office that knows what the hell they're doing, and makes decisions based upon a competent scouting department. Until we get that, it doesn't matter who we draft, or who we sign as a free agent.

I assumed we had a competent staff with the Casserly/Capers bunch, and I was so wrong. I'm not going to assume we have one now until they prove different.

TheCD
10-17-2006, 08:30 AM
There's nothing wrong with getting impact players now. We don't need to wait until we have a losing season to try and bring in guys who can help to turn this team around.

Personally, I think John Lynch is an UFA after this season and if the Broncos don't sign him, I think he'd really help out our much-maligned safeties. If we don't get a big Safety through FA, though...I think it goes without saying we need to draft one.

I think if we can pick up (through either FA or the Draft) a good safety, a good CB and an above-average LB, our defense will be at least middle of the pack.

Our only real problem offensively is the o-line, and two of our key players are out with injuries...so wihle we're struggling, I half expected such because of the "quality depth" that we've put so much effort into building over the years. I have a feeling that, if everyone's healthy, we just need that one tackle or guard that can anchor the line next season that we're lacking now.

Rightnow
10-17-2006, 08:51 AM
If we go 3-13 this season and 4-12 next Carr will probably be gone. This isn't a good thing though as that means we would have to either bring in an old, marginal veteran or spend a first round pick on a new QB. If we get another rookie QB it pushes back our ability to win for at least one more season, probably two.

The scenario could work out like this:

- We go 3-13 this year. (2006)
- We go 4-12 next year and Carr is released. (2007)
- We draft a new QB who looks good, but we play a veteran like Sage. We go 7-9. (2008)
- The new QB starts and has a good but not great year. We go 8-8 with a bit of a QB controversy as some people think he's a bust and Sage is the man. (2009)
- We go 9-7 and make the wild card and lose. (2010)
- We go 10-6 finally beating the Colts (2011) and winning the division.

I for one don't want to wait until 2010 before we see the playoffs, but it is very possible if we have to replace Carr.

The other issue with going 3-13 and 4-12 is signing good veteran free agents. We have room under the cap, but how many players will want to come to a franchise with a seven or eight year losing record, possibly a new rookie QB, and a disillusioned fan base?

The best case is us going 5-11 or 6-10 this year and 7-9 to 8-8 next year with Carr at the helm and a couple of fantastic drafts.

tsip
10-17-2006, 08:53 AM
Yes, but you also have to have the same guys play together for a while. If we keep swapping out linemen year after year, we will never make any progress.


Where have you been? We've had basically the same line men and then-when we sub one-it's with someone else's reject

touttail
10-17-2006, 09:09 AM
Damn I hate this stinkin' losin'.

Tough to grasp, no NFL team in Houston or a losing team.

Soooooooooo glad to get a team back in H town, but my gawd.

Like the fan said, you guys are making it hard to be a Texan fan.
Getting expensive too. It's time for a return on our investment!

Was a Saints fan for years, at least they won 5 or 6 games every year. Jez!

Bobby 119C

StarStruck
10-17-2006, 10:11 AM
If we go 3-13 this season and 4-12 next Carr will probably be gone. This isn't a good thing though as that means we would have to either bring in an old, marginal veteran or spend a first round pick on a new QB. If we get another rookie QB it pushes back our ability to win for at least one more season, probably two.

The scenario could work out like this:

- We go 3-13 this year. (2006)
- We go 4-12 next year and Carr is released. (2007)
- We draft a new QB who looks good, but we play a veteran like Sage. We go 7-9. (2008)
- The new QB starts and has a good but not great year. We go 8-8 with a bit of a QB controversy as some people think he's a bust and Sage is the man. (2009)
- We go 9-7 and make the wild card and lose. (2010)
- We go 10-6 finally beating the Colts (2011) and winning the division.

I for one don't want to wait until 2010 before we see the playoffs, but it is very possible if we have to replace Carr.

The other issue with going 3-13 and 4-12 is signing good veteran free agents. We have room under the cap, but how many players will want to come to a franchise with a seven or eight year losing record, possibly a new rookie QB, and a disillusioned fan base?

The best case is us going 5-11 or 6-10 this year and 7-9 to 8-8 next year with Carr at the helm and a couple of fantastic drafts.

Oh dear, this is about as depressing as the weather has been for the last couple of days. I dread the thought of the Texans being cast in the same light as Tampa Bay their first 20 or so years as a franchise.

Mr. White
10-17-2006, 10:22 AM
Kind of like what the Panthers and Jaguars did when they came into the league. I know most teams like to build through the draft rather than through free agency, but after year after year of losing, would you be willing to have one or two good years and then go into salary cap hell for the next three seasons?


The Panthers and Jaguars had the benefit of a better expansion draft than the Texans and the Browns (for that matter) had.

There were a lot bigger names back then in the expansion draft. I remember hearing the announcers during the Texans expansion draft saying that the NFL wouldn't let an expansion team have the quality of what the Jags and Panthers had. Sounded like the NFL thought it made a mistake by making those two teams so competitive so quick.

Rightnow
10-17-2006, 10:37 AM
Oh dear, this is about as depressing as the weather has been for the last couple of days. I dread the thought of the Texans being cast in the same light as Tampa Bay their first 20 or so years as a franchise.

The picture is bleak, but not hopeless. Dom and Cass left this team devestated and we are literally rebuilding the team without the benefit of an expansion draft. Look how long it has taken Bill Parcells to put together a team to his liking in Dallas and the Cowboys aren't dominant still. They are good, but not great.

Like I said, a couple of fantastic drafts, a couple of key FA aquisitions, and we could be a playoff team in 2008-2009. If we release Carr, then the playoffs are 2010+.

There is a possibility that we could be bad for a full decade too, but let's not think about that.

Cjeremy635
10-17-2006, 10:57 AM
One of the points we have to look at is who is going to want to come here and play? This is only a team sport to an extent. People play for their salaries, fame, endorsements, stats, super bowl rings, etc. The NFL career is only a few years long. So, hpothetically speaking, say we go after a 5 year veteran DB or linemen. They haven't made it to the super bowl yet and a losing team wants to pick them up. If they are playing to acheive the pinnacle of success in a pro football career (super bowls), what makes them think that a 3-13 team is going to turn it around within 1-3 years and take them there before their career is over? Sure it happens from time to time, but the odds aren't in your favor for a dramatic turn around. Not to mention that Houston is not one of the cities that gets alot of endorsement deals for its top sports players unless you like to advertise for HEB.

TheCD
10-17-2006, 01:09 PM
If we go 3-13 this season and 4-12 next Carr will probably be gone.

Carr won't be released. At worst the team will simply let his contract expire. If we're working for a new young qb, why shake things up more and have a completely unproven player (Rosenfels) work in our system. I doubt Kubiak would let that happen. I don't even think we'd be getting a new QB if we went 1-15 this year and next. Carr has done enough to secure his job, I think.

bigTEXan8
10-17-2006, 01:15 PM
if we go 3-13, we probably get to pick up a. peterson or another fantastic rb.

Runner
10-17-2006, 01:20 PM
I think the greatest impact would be having an OL that was exactly the same for a year or two. After this year, much of the OL will also have more experience with the zone blocking scheme.

Playing Weigert and Salaam pretty much stops this from happening. I doubt either are with the Texans next year, much less in two. Injuries or performance will catch up with them.

mexican_texan
10-17-2006, 01:30 PM
Talent and coaching trumps experience. Pick up linemen.

kcwilson
10-17-2006, 01:42 PM
If we go 3-13 this season and 4-12 next Carr will probably be gone. This isn't a good thing though as that means we would have to either bring in an old, marginal veteran or spend a first round pick on a new QB. If we get another rookie QB it pushes back our ability to win for at least one more season, probably two.

The scenario could work out like this:

- We go 3-13 this year. (2006)
- We go 4-12 next year and Carr is released. (2007)
- We draft a new QB who looks good, but we play a veteran like Sage. We go 7-9. (2008)
- The new QB starts and has a good but not great year. We go 8-8 with a bit of a QB controversy as some people think he's a bust and Sage is the man. (2009)
- We go 9-7 and make the wild card and lose. (2010)
- We go 10-6 finally beating the Colts (2011) and winning the division.

I for one don't want to wait until 2010 before we see the playoffs, but it is very possible if we have to replace Carr.

The other issue with going 3-13 and 4-12 is signing good veteran free agents. We have room under the cap, but how many players will want to come to a franchise with a seven or eight year losing record, possibly a new rookie QB, and a disillusioned fan base?

The best case is us going 5-11 or 6-10 this year and 7-9 to 8-8 next year with Carr at the helm and a couple of fantastic drafts.

Hey Nostradamus...
Why does getting rid of Carr and starting Sage in 2008 result in three more wins exactly? What has Sage done?

I assume you are leaving out more important assumptions, like our defense is more mature or running game and OL developed. It is pretty dangerous territory to assume that Sage starting in one year results in three more wins. Not trying to start a Sage vs. Carr debate as much as trying to see what justification you have in three more wins from year to year with a new starting QB of Rosenfels pedigree. There is more to your assumption, correct?

Rightnow
10-17-2006, 02:06 PM
Hey Nostradamus...
Why does getting rid of Carr and starting Sage in 2008 result in three more wins exactly? What has Sage done?

I assume you are leaving out more important assumptions, like our defense is more mature or running game and OL developed. It is pretty dangerous territory to assume that Sage starting in one year results in three more wins. Not trying to start a Sage vs. Carr debate as much as trying to see what justification you have in three more wins from year to year with a new starting QB of Rosenfels pedigree. There is more to your assumption, correct?

Actually the 7-9 season wasn't from Sage, but from the rest of the team getting better and a couple of good drafts in my mind.

I put the number of 4-12 because someone else mentioned it, and it would be the only way the Texans would release or bench Carr. I'm actually a Carr supporter, and this scenario shows what a devestating effect getting rid of Carr would have on the Texans.

For Carr to be released the team would have to have two awful seasons in a row with Carr obviously being part of the problem. Even if we got a new Heisman QB and started him, the team still wouldn't win that year. Big Ben's debut was a fluke. Most average NFL teams that start a rookie QB will lose more games then they win.

hollywood_texan
10-17-2006, 02:19 PM
I don't even think we'd be getting a new QB if we went 1-15 this year and next. Carr has done enough to secure his job, I think.

Are you kidding?

You are basically saying Carr can go 4-44 over three years and his job isn't in jeopardy.

Maybe your are right, but it just proves that this teams is so horrible that certain players jobs are safe because they are not one of the worst players on the team.

I am seriously beginning to wonder if most of the guys on the 2006 squad could even make another team, and the rest would probably have a hard time starting or keeping their job on another team. That includes Andre Johnson because of all of his dropped balls.

Another thing I am beginning to wonder is, are there too many teams in the league and not enough talent to spread around? If that is the case, the real premium is on coaching and scouting talent, which would indicate the biggest failure of the Texans.

But, I guess we already know that from the first four years, we'll see what happens with Kubiak and Smith.

As for Carr, it's one thing to make a #1 draft pick that doesn't pan out, but it's entirely another thing to hang on to it for 7 years and pay top dollar, which is what you are implying with the Texans only winning 2 games in two seasons (2006 and 2007). Also, a team having a top 3 draft pick 4 out of seven years and three years in a row is extremely expensive and creates all sort of cap problems and draft issues.

Goldeagle
10-17-2006, 02:21 PM
If we go 3-13 this season and 4-12 next Carr will probably be gone. This isn't a good thing though as that means we would have to either bring in an old, marginal veteran or spend a first round pick on a new QB. If we get another rookie QB it pushes back our ability to win for at least one more season, probably two.

The scenario could work out like this:

- We go 3-13 this year. (2006)
- We go 4-12 next year and Carr is released. (2007)
- We draft a new QB who looks good, but we play a veteran like Sage. We go 7-9. (2008)
- The new QB starts and has a good but not great year. We go 8-8 with a bit of a QB controversy as some people think he's a bust and Sage is the man. (2009)
- We go 9-7 and make the wild card and lose. (2010)
- We go 10-6 finally beating the Colts (2011) and winning the division.

I for one don't want to wait until 2010 before we see the playoffs, but it is very possible if we have to replace Carr.

The other issue with going 3-13 and 4-12 is signing good veteran free agents. We have room under the cap, but how many players will want to come to a franchise with a seven or eight year losing record, possibly a new rookie QB, and a disillusioned fan base?

The best case is us going 5-11 or 6-10 this year and 7-9 to 8-8 next year with Carr at the helm and a couple of fantastic drafts.

I dont see releasing Carr will give us more games to win. If the rest of the team played as well as he has, who knows where we would be.

hollywood_texan
10-17-2006, 02:29 PM
I dont see releasing Carr will give us more games to win. If the rest of the team played as well as he has, who knows where we would be.

I don't see winning games as that important right now.

Showing heart as a team and preparing for a quality team in 3 years or so is what needs to be focus.

Having said that, I don't see how Carr, Johnson, or Robison fit into that equation.

There is a long road of losing ahead probably through 2008 and how do these guys hang on to their jobs for that long.

Get value now, stock up as many draft picks as you can and cut these guys loose to play somewhere else where they can get a real chance.