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the wonger need food
10-16-2006, 09:14 AM
From day one Coach Kubiak told us "the backend is fine". Now we have confirmed that it is a huge weakness and the 2nd most talentless area of the team.

The running game has been a disaster. We have been told that this is the most important aspect of the offense and it is a complete failure week after week. Tom Pendry's running game was better than team's.... which is inexcusable.

This team is being outcoaced week after week. The playcalling is predictable and teams are all over what we're doing. It's just like last year, but with different plays. Opponents are making halftime adjustments and dominating in the second half of games. Can't put 2 halves of decent football together just like last year.

I understand that this team has very little talent, but the talent is does have is not being coached up correctly. This team could possibly be as bad as last year's team if not worse.

The Oakland game looks to be the only winnable game remaining on the schedule. Last place and the first pick is looking inevitable again this year.

Marcus
10-16-2006, 09:17 AM
Wrong.

It's the offensive line again. Only this time, they pass-protect well, but can't get the push on running plays.

the wonger need food
10-16-2006, 09:22 AM
I'm not making any excuses for the offensive line.. they're a bunch of cowards also. But it looks like the running backs are being coached to run into the back of their offensive lineman. Morency had his flaws, but he was much better than anything we can put on the field currently. Another bad personnel decision that will lead to another 2-14 season.

real
10-16-2006, 09:25 AM
I'm not making any excuses for the offensive line.. they're a bunch of cowards also. But it looks like the running backs are being coached to run into the back of their offensive lineman. Morency had his flaws, but he was much better than anything we can put on the field currently. Another bad personnel decision that will lead to another 2-14 season.
:stirpot:

Vinny
10-16-2006, 09:27 AM
Wrong.

It's the offensive line again. Only this time, they pass-protect well, but can't get the push on running plays.
These same linemen did last year and the year before and the year before.

DocBar
10-16-2006, 09:31 AM
Wrong.

It's the offensive line again. Only this time, they pass-protect well, but can't get the push on running plays.

Is it the O-lines fault that the RB runs right into the pile instead of attempting to cut back or bounce it outside?? I agree the coaching staff has been outcoached every game out, with the possible exception of the Miami game. Where is this zone blocking scheme everyone was so high on?

D-Vizzl
10-16-2006, 09:32 AM
Wrong.

It's the offensive line again. Only this time, they pass-protect well, but can't get the push on running plays.

I stated this on another thread but I will say it here to, the run blocking is fine, IMO here are the problems

1. No one is scared or afraid to go up the middle on our D, why? Lack of an effective safety,and cover corners (all of them) coaches had to know this---coaches fault then

2. Part of the West Coast offense (which we do run) is the dink and dunk, there is not any part of the WCO that calls for "the dumpoff" all the time---once again coaching and Carr

3. We keep rushing our lineman most of the time, Texans D is most effective when they CB blitz or disguise the LB and blitz with him--- coaching

4. Last but not least the running game, I actually thought yesterday in the second half we had the right idea with the constant PA fakes, it's just up to Carr to get it downfield. As for the running we are doing draws and dives with Dayne, please-----coaching

HOU-TEX
10-16-2006, 09:33 AM
Is it the O-lines fault that the RB runs right into the pile instead of attempting to cut back or bounce it outside?? I agree the coaching staff has been outcoached every game out, with the possible exception of the Miami game. Where is this zone blocking scheme everyone was so high on?

Still in Denver with the correct line to run it.:hides:

Marcus
10-16-2006, 09:33 AM
Notice how much better protection Carr is getting? That isn't all because of the OL. Dayne and Gado are starting because Morency and Lundy weren't holding up their end on passing downs.

Now, I know you can turn that around and say it isn't all the OL on running plays.

But the fact remains . . it all starts upfront. The OL isn't opening any holes, and they are getting no push. And it isn't going to get any better, either. They lost Weigart, and they got an unready Winston to take his spot.

dat_boy_yec
10-16-2006, 09:41 AM
Quit blasting the o-line. I know they deserved it in the past, but they're doing a much better job this yr. I'm not making excuses, but watch the game, there are running lanes and they aren't utilized, for whatever reason Dayne and Gado just aren't getting to them. Could they do better, of course, but they're doing a decent job already so stop laying all the blame at their feet.

Wonger is right this falls on the coaches. We do well in our fist drives, but then after the half we don't make adjustments on offense or on defense. That was the difference yesterday and has been all season. Instead of going in and saying these are the weaknesses we saw let's capitalize on them we go in and think we're doing okay let's keep doing what we're doing and get the win. That just isn't going to work. The Cowboys went in and said we're not having much success let's put extra men on the side we're running to and use our TE's as fullbacks. On defense they figured out we have no running game and adjusted accordingly. What did our coaching staff do? If they did something different I didn't see it.

Overall, the coaching staff needs to get serious, Dayne hasn't produced. Why is he still starting. LB's other than Ryans haven't really been a factor. Why aren't we trying different people out there. We're not winning and it doesn't look like we're going to. Why not try to see what other options we have instead of trying the same god darn thing and expecting different results!

gtexan02
10-16-2006, 09:44 AM
Both Gado and Dayne produced in GB and Denver respectively. Gado averaged over 4 ypc last year, and Dayne blew up the Cowboys last year. Neither could do anything with our team.

Morency averaged 2 ypc against the Eagles with us, he played them with the Packers and racked up almost 100 yards rushing.

Whats the difference between our two teams? Oh yeah, the OL! In 2/3 of those cases, the coaches are even the same!

jerek
10-16-2006, 09:44 AM
From day one Coach Kubiak told us "the backend is fine". Now we have confirmed that it is a huge weakness and the 2nd most talentless area of the team.

The running game has been a disaster. We have been told that this is the most important aspect of the offense and it is a complete failure week after week. Tom Pendry's running game was better than team's.... which is inexcusable.

This team is being outcoaced week after week. The playcalling is predictable and teams are all over what we're doing. It's just like last year, but with different plays. Opponents are making halftime adjustments and dominating in the second half of games. Can't put 2 halves of decent football together just like last year.

I understand that this team has very little talent, but the talent is does have is not being coached up correctly. This team could possibly be as bad as last year's team if not worse.

The Oakland game looks to be the only winnable game remaining on the schedule. Last place and the first pick is looking inevitable again this year.

While I share your disillusion with the coaching staff in general right now, I think you are overstating their failure. I still see this team finishing 6-10. Dallas had much more talent and -- regrettably -- a superior coaching staff. The apparent lack of halftime adjustments, piss poor secondary, and abysmal running game are my greatest fears right now.

jerek
10-16-2006, 09:45 AM
Notice how much better protection Carr is getting? That isn't all because of the OL. Dayne and Gado are starting because Morency and Lundy weren't holding up their end on passing downs.

Now, I know you can turn that around and say it isn't all the OL on running plays.

But the fact remains . . it all starts upfront. The OL isn't opening any holes, and they are getting no push. And it isn't going to get any better, either. They lost Weigart, and they got an unready Winston to take his spot.

I watched Morency pick up a number of blitzes in the preseason. His trade is all the more frustrating now in light of Ron Dayne's apparent inability to so much as change direction in the backfield. The gaps are there on many plays, and Dayne either doesn't see them or can't get to them.

HOU-TEX
10-16-2006, 09:55 AM
I watched Morency pick up a number of blitzes in the preseason. His trade is all the more frustrating now in light of Ron Dayne's apparent inability to so much as change direction in the backfield. The gaps are there on many plays, and Dayne either doesn't see them or can't get to them.

I'm not sure what gaps ya'll are seeing. The only thing I notice on running plays is a huge pile of linemen. Maybe they've been there at times and I just haven't noticed. There have been several chances for a cut back that never happens though.

nunusguy
10-16-2006, 10:03 AM
These same linemen did last year and the year before and the year before.

This is what makes it so puzzling, and so frustrating. They were a reasonable
good run blocking team in the past, but very poor at pass protection.
According to Spencer Tillman last night on the Channel 13 post game show with Bob Allen, he says one reason for this is that the Texans OLine is using narrower splits to aid their pass protection, but of course that is less favorable for rushing plays as the DLine is not spread out as far as it would be with wider Oline gaps. So there is that trade-off, he claims.
And we also knows that the Cowboys were content to keep their safetys back to double up with the corners on WR coverage and keep all passesd underneth them. No safety blitzs.
I dunno, but how much of a learning curve is their with thier ZB scheme Kubiak is running ?

Marcus
10-16-2006, 10:11 AM
I'm not sure what gaps ya'll are seeing. The only thing I notice on running plays is a huge pile of linemen. Maybe they've been there at times and I just haven't noticed. There have been several chances for a cut back that never happens though.
I didn't see any gaps there, either. I'm rewatching the game right now. It's near the end of the 2nd quarter, and have yet to see one gap. Someone want to point one out for me?

Quit blasting the O-line?? Then tell me where the gaps were?

D-Vizzl
10-16-2006, 10:14 AM
I would tell you where to look but that would defeat the purpose, all I can say is focus on the guards you have to see it for yourself, and if you don't well then................

Marcus
10-16-2006, 10:18 AM
I would tell you where to look but that would defeat the purpose, all I can say is focus on the guards you have to see it for yourself, and if you don't well then................
How could you get anymore pathetically weak? You don't see any either, so admit it.

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 10:25 AM
How can this fall on the coaches? We couldn't get 1 yard for a 3rd down conversion MANY times yesterday. It was pathetic that this line couldn't push for 1 freakin yard to get a first down, and trust me, this isn't just this year either. Flanagan got blown up on many plays and was pushed back. If you can't get 1 yard, that is not the coaches fault. I saw that the Cowboys blitzed sparingly and controlled the line of scrimmage even though they only had 4 rushers at any given time. With that type of lineup, you'd think we'd be able to run the ball.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:28 AM
I saw that the Cowboys blitzed sparingly and controlled the line of scrimmage even though they only had 4 rushers at any given time. With that type of lineup, you'd think we'd be able to run the ball.
If you are a defender and watch film of our offense and Carr's history you can just about assume that nearly every single pass will be underneath the linebacker drops. It's easier to come support the run when you know the QB can't beat you in the middle of the field and in the seams. Until we start beating teams deep middle and in the seams we are going to struggle.

D-Vizzl
10-16-2006, 10:29 AM
Seriously though we all watch the games for different reasons and we see different things.

1. First run of the game after the two passes Dayne ran straight into the pile when a simple cut to the right would have given him an open field (maybe not because he is so slow)

2. The second run was a draw play (approx: 13:14 in the 1st Quarter) Dayne runs right because it is designed that way but two cowboy linemen were right there, once again a simple cut to the left and he would have had at least a first down and then the facemask added with that.

I am not saying that the run blocking is perfect, but at least I can say if Dayne and Gado would just improvise it would be there.

I will not even discuss anymore plays because I know what these eyes see and what they look for, but if you don't see it then..........

ArlingtonTexan
10-16-2006, 10:31 AM
The best guy in the Dallas area at looking at football is breaking down the game at theticket.com for the next hour or so. Hear someone who does not have a local agenda on the Texans.

D-Vizzl
10-16-2006, 10:31 AM
If you are a defender and watch film of our offense and Carr's history you can just about assume that nearly every single pass will be underneath the linebacker drops. It's easier to come support the run when you know the QB can't beat you in the middle of the field and in the seams. Until we start beating teams deep middle and in the seams we are going to struggle.

That's a fire post right there Vinny, I couldn't have said it better myself.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:34 AM
The best guy in the Dallas area at looking at football is breaking down the game at theticket.com for the next hour or so. Hear someone who does not have a local agenda on the Texans.
Here is a link to the stream.

http://www.theticket.com/listen.htm

dat_boy_yec
10-16-2006, 10:42 AM
I'm not sure what gaps ya'll are seeing. The only thing I notice on running plays is a huge pile of linemen. Maybe they've been there at times and I just haven't noticed. There have been several chances for a cut back that never happens though.

Those several chances for cutbacks that you're referring to ARE the gaps we're talking about.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:44 AM
The best guy in the Dallas area at looking at football is breaking down the game at theticket.com for the next hour or so. Hear someone who does not have a local agenda on the Texans.


LOL Norm just destroyed the Texans gameplan panning them for throwing a billion four yard passes.

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 11:38 AM
If you are a defender and watch film of our offense and Carr's history you can just about assume that nearly every single pass will be underneath the linebacker drops. It's easier to come support the run when you know the QB can't beat you in the middle of the field and in the seams. Until we start beating teams deep middle and in the seams we are going to struggle.

I don't think it's really Carrs history, it's our running game period. Our team hasn't really instilled any fear of the run, even when DD was in there, you can always say that our team isn't going to get that yard needed for the 1st down. The way to beat that scheme is run up the gut and use play action pass over the middle. I saw Ellis make a sensational play to break up the seam up the middle for an interception, so we did take our shots. Carr actually did throw to the seams in the middle, but you can't do that every play, you need to check off if it's not there. I guess we see it different because I look at this offense as having a capable QB and no running game.

MightyTExan
10-16-2006, 12:33 PM
Can someone post any after game quotes from Kubiak from the main site? It's blocked at work and I'm curious as to what he has to say after this monumental loss.

Meisterman
10-16-2006, 12:43 PM
Originally Posted by Vinny
If you are a defender and watch film of our offense and Carr's history you can just about assume that nearly every single pass will be underneath the linebacker drops. It's easier to come support the run when you know the QB can't beat you in the middle of the field and in the seams. Until we start beating teams deep middle and in the seams we are going to struggle.

That is right on the money.

Corners jump the routes on Carr ...especially since he "locks in" way tooooo much.

Oh and Vinny better change from 2 drafts to 3 :shades:

tsip
10-16-2006, 02:17 PM
LOL Norm just destroyed the Texans gameplan panning them for throwing a billion four yard passes.

Yea,I guess our coaches didn't see what the Eagles did to the 'Boys, especially burning Williams! Our game plans 'suck' and so do the adjustments we make to them--if we even make adjustments!!

tsip
10-16-2006, 02:31 PM
Can someone post any after game quotes from Kubiak from the main site? It's blocked at work and I'm curious as to what he has to say after this monumental loss.


"The weather was a factor and there was some great defense being played. We had some opportunities on offense that we did not take advantage of."

Blaming the weather is weak, as a lot of teams (north/east) play in worse weather every yr in Nov/Dec. This year we go to the 'Big Apple' twice in Nov and Boston in Dec-Broncos play in bad weather all the time, so I don't understand Gary's 'beef' here. 'Advantage' is becoming Kubiak's 'watch' word, akin to Caper's 'execute.'

another quote

"When things start going bad, it gets frustrating for everybody," Kubiak said. "When you turn the ball over in three consecutive possessions, there is going to be frustration on the football field for your team. It's no excuse for losing your poise or anything."

run-david-run
10-16-2006, 02:57 PM
If you are a defender and watch film of our offense and Carr's history you can just about assume that nearly every single pass will be underneath the linebacker drops. It's easier to come support the run when you know the QB can't beat you in the middle of the field and in the seams. Until we start beating teams deep middle and in the seams we are going to struggle.

Yet when he does throw it deep over the middle "in the seem" there is a linebacker there to tip it, one to make a diving catch AND a saftey there to pop AJ. No running game means 7 in coverage and no where to throw the ball, its as simple as that. What I would like to see is more 3 and 4 WR sets to spread out the defense and give us more options. The ultimate goal in football is to impose your will and dictate play, generally thats seen as pounding the ball and being physical, but forcing defenses into nickle and dime coverages can have the same effect of taking them out of their comfort zone. I think we have to realize we are not going to "fix" the running game and instead devlop a way to overcome it without having Carr throw it 45 times.

run-david-run
10-16-2006, 03:00 PM
LOL Norm just destroyed the Texans gameplan panning them for throwing a billion four yard passes.

I doubt you can call that the gameplan, more like the scared reaction to the realization that Carr gained more yards on two carries then Dayne on 14 and AJ was double and tripled on most plays.
When you think about it, a result like this shouldnt be that surprising. What has our offense been the first 4 games: a crappy running game and AJ. Take AJ away and we are screwed, except for the first drive of course...

run-david-run
10-16-2006, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Vinny
If you are a defender and watch film of our offense and Carr's history you can just about assume that nearly every single pass will be underneath the linebacker drops. It's easier to come support the run when you know the QB can't beat you in the middle of the field and in the seams. Until we start beating teams deep middle and in the seams we are going to struggle.

That is right on the money.

Corners jump the routes on Carr ...especially since he "locks in" way tooooo much.

Oh and Vinny better change from 2 drafts to 3 :shades:

thats the way teams have learned to play us. we ussually dont have the time for long routes, double moves, pump fakes and such plays that are designed to take advantage of over-aggressivness. Basically, its snap, look, throw. Obviously we've gotten better this season before the Cowboys game, but it seemed we reverted back to not challenging the secondary and getting the ball out quickly on Sunday, and the result was not pretty. I really dont understand why we didnt line up AJ on Roy Williams side of the field and take one shot deep, even if he was double covered, let him go up and get it like he did with Miami. We have to trust our playmakers downfield, look at TO's touchdowns.

ArlingtonTexan
10-16-2006, 04:13 PM
thats the way teams have learned to play us. we ussually dont have the time for long routes, double moves, pump fakes and such plays that are designed to take advantage of over-aggressivness. Basically, its snap, look, throw. Obviously we've gotten better this season before the Cowboys game, but it seemed we reverted back to not challenging the secondary and getting the ball out quickly on Sunday, and the result was not pretty. I really dont understand why we didnt line up AJ on Roy Williams side of the field and take one shot deep, even if he was double covered, let him go up and get it like he did with Miami. We have to trust our playmakers downfield, look at TO's touchdowns.

This was the contention of Norm, the Dallas radio guy. The area where Dallas seems to have a hole in the defense is deep especially when you force the safeties into coverage. In a larger sense, many coaches believe no matter what that you have to a least make a couple of throws down the field.

ArlingtonTexan
10-16-2006, 04:23 PM
LOL Norm just destroyed the Texans gameplan panning them for throwing a billion four yard passes.

Yeah, I remembered him when I was walking out of the door as I did not work from home. I heard the comments and they are pretty deadon for what some the more saavy people here have said. The Texans did not challenge and played in a lot ways not to lose the game instead of attacking.

HJam72
10-16-2006, 04:47 PM
This was the contention of Norm, the Dallas radio guy. The area where Dallas seems to have a hole in the defense is deep especially when you force the safeties into coverage. In a larger sense, many coaches believe no matter what that you have to a least make a couple of throws down the field.

We've had one of those. He was the first scapegoat fired from the previous regime. At some point, you gotta chunk one or two just to show them that you will.

Texan1
10-16-2006, 06:30 PM
This team is being outcoaced week after week. The playcalling is predictable and teams are all over what we're doing. It's just like last year, but with different plays. Opponents are making halftime adjustments and dominating in the second half of games. Can't put 2 halves of decent football together just like last year.



I think this team has less talent - but better coaching. We have alot of young players and the Texans, as they always do - not matter the head coach, continue to make bad personnel decisions. Starting with Williams over Bush - think the Gado trade looks like a dumb move too.

Anyway, I feel your pain. Don;t know what to day other than I'm sure they find a way to make more bad personnel moves.

axman40
10-16-2006, 07:50 PM
I'm not sure what gaps ya'll are seeing. The only thing I notice on running plays is a huge pile of linemen. Maybe they've been there at times and I just haven't noticed. There have been several chances for a cut back that never happens though.
If you relax your eyes and do not look at them directly, then you will see them.
http://www.vision3d.com/sghidden/shark.html

:cowboy1:

Scott D
10-17-2006, 03:21 AM
Both Gado and Dayne produced in GB and Denver respectively. Gado averaged over 4 ypc last year, and Dayne blew up the Cowboys last year. Neither could do anything with our team.

Morency averaged 2 ypc against the Eagles with us, he played them with the Packers and racked up almost 100 yards rushing.

Whats the difference between our two teams? Oh yeah, the OL! In 2/3 of those cases, the coaches are even the same!


My point exactly. I think the coaches know they have difficulties. Look what they have to work with? Anytime you come into a crappy team, the first year you start with them, it's always a losing season. It takes 2 to 3 years (again, sigh) to become a winning team. In our case, a winning team for the first time. The coaches need to weed out the ineffective players and hire someone else that fits their scheme. It is obvious to me that some of these people on the front line won't work.

Keep in mind, running the ball vs passing it aren't the same thing. The front line does different things, depending on what play they do. Perhaps they don't know the plays as well as they should.

TheOgre
10-17-2006, 07:02 AM
Quit blasting the o-line. I know they deserved it in the past, but they're doing a much better job this yr. I'm not making excuses, but watch the game, there are running lanes and they aren't utilized, for whatever reason Dayne and Gado just aren't getting to them. Could they do better, of course, but they're doing a decent job already so stop laying all the blame at their feet.

The line has definitely improved on its pass blocking, but the run blocking is just pathetic. We have gone from an average to below average run blocking team and pathetic pass blocking team to a pathetic run blocking team and below average pass blocking team.