PDA

View Full Version : Disgraceful...


the wonger need food
10-16-2006, 09:59 AM
This team is absolutely disgraceful and I'm embarrassed to be associated with this organization this morning. To flame out the way they did in the second half is inexcusable.

The sad part is there is nothing that can be done to fix it. The organization has been turned over on the management and personnel side and still produces the same unacceptable results. It's one thing to lose, yet another to be physically and mentally overmatched week after week. This team hasn't looked like it even belongs in the NFL for almost 2 years.

I will hang in there to the end, I just hope that I can witness a winning season in my lifetime... but it's not looking good...

real
10-16-2006, 10:02 AM
This team is absolutely disgraceful and I'm embarrassed to be associated with this organization this morning. To flame out the way they did in the second half is inexcusable.

The sad part is their is nothing that can be done to fix it. The organization has been turned over on the management and personnel side and still produces the same unacceptable results. It's one thing to lose, yet another to be physically and mentally overmatched week after week. This team hasn't looked like it even belongs in the NFL for almost 2 years.

I will hang in there to the end, I just hope that I can witness a winning season in my lifetime... but it's not looking good...

Wonger what did you expect out of the Texans this season ????

I'm not sure how you can look at the team and not see hope and progress...People were talking about the cowboys as a superbowl contender...we are coming off of 2-14....

We look 100 times better than we did last year despite the ugly second half...

texan279
10-16-2006, 10:04 AM
I have said it before and will say it again, miracles do not happen overnight. Kubiak came in here and is trying to fix the mess Capers and Co. left behind. We have seen some improvement in some areas. I do not know what some of you expected to see this season...

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:09 AM
I have said it before and will say it again, miracles do not happen overnight. Kubiak came in here and is trying to fix the mess Capers and Co. left behind. We have seen some improvement in some areas. I do not know what some of you expected to see this season...Don't tell this to Sean Payton. I don't think he knows that it takes years and years to rebuild. Most thought that he was handed a mess when he took over the Saints. The Saints fans ran Jim Haslett out of town much like we ran Dom out of here.

sk8termom
10-16-2006, 10:23 AM
C'mon people - it's going to get better. It just HAS to! Give Kubiak a chance, he hasn't had much time yet.

real
10-16-2006, 10:24 AM
:stirpot:=Wonger

Runner
10-16-2006, 10:26 AM
People were talking about the cowboys as a superbowl contender...

I'm glad you said contender. The Super Bowl was getting crowded with other Texan opponents like the Eagles and the Colts already there. :)


We look 100 times better than we did last year despite the ugly second half...

Which still leaves us well short of the 2004 team. It is still pretty ugly.

real
10-16-2006, 10:30 AM
Which still leaves us well short of the 2004 team. It is still pretty ugly.

It's not really fair to judge Kubiak based on the 2004 team...he didn't inherit that team...he inherited the 2005 Texans....Which was the worst team in the leauge...

mexican_texan
10-16-2006, 10:33 AM
Don't tell this to Sean Payton. I don't think he knows that it takes years and years to rebuild. Most thought that he was handed a mess when he took over the Saints. The Saints fans ran Jim Haslett out of town much like we ran Dom out of here.
I expected the Saints to at least contend for the playoffs last year. Of course, this was before Katrina. I think they barely missed the playoffs the year before.

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 10:36 AM
Don't tell this to Sean Payton. I don't think he knows that it takes years and years to rebuild. Most thought that he was handed a mess when he took over the Saints. The Saints fans ran Jim Haslett out of town much like we ran Dom out of here.

That is not a fair comparison as the Saints had more talent than their evacuated team showed last season. The Saints also did not lose their starting runningback, Duece McAllister, in training camp this year. The year Duece did not play certainly impacted their play. He also traded in his high mileage QB for a more reliable one in Drew Brees.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:38 AM
That is not a fair comparison as the Saints had more talent than their evacuated team showed last season. The Saints also did not lose their starting runningback, Duece McAllister, in training camp this year. The year Duece did not play certainly impacted their play. He also traded in his high mileage QB for a more reliable one in Drew Brees.I guess no NFL team is a fair comparison then....the Saints defense was awful, they start two rookies on offense, had a suspect O line and brought in a new OC and HC and QB in one off-season...but make it work in one year.

texasguy346
10-16-2006, 10:46 AM
Which still leaves us well short of the 2004 team. It is still pretty ugly.

Absolutely, but as ugly as it is so far this season we all know it could be much much uglier. No one on the team escapes blame for the terrible second half showing we witnessed on Sunday. This coaching staff has to make the needed changes to make this team look like a professional team & so far they haven't done it. Early in the season it was the defense & running game that we all pointed to as the biggest problems for this team, and now we're seeing some improvement in the defense but no progress on the running game. What boggles the mind is how horrible our running game is so far this season. Again, that's on the coaches to figure out how to fix it.

Last season we had problems in every facet of the game with the possible exception of returning kicks, and there was no reason to believe that the coaching staff would fix any of the problems. It's quite possible that this season could get uglier if our running game isn't fixed & our team decides to quit midway through the season as they did in 05. I don't think that will happen this year & I'm hopeful that Kubiak will figure it out and fix it by either bringing in Wand for depth on the OL or bringing in a new RB or just by focusing on it more in practices.

El Tejano
10-16-2006, 10:46 AM
I guess no NFL team is a fair comparison then....the Saints defense was awful, they start two rookies on offense, had a suspect O line and brought in a new OC and HC and QB in one off-season...but make it work in one year.

They do have a better QB and RB. That just confirms your point though. Our brass hasn't brought in the goods.

tsip
10-16-2006, 10:47 AM
"I'm not sure how you can look at the team and not see hope and progress"


Please give some examples to back this statement up--not future speculations, but actual things that are happening on the field on a consistent basis that says "hope and progress."

texan279
10-16-2006, 10:48 AM
Don't tell this to Sean Payton. I don't think he knows that it takes years and years to rebuild. Most thought that he was handed a mess when he took over the Saints. The Saints fans ran Jim Haslett out of town much like we ran Dom out of here.

Payton has Brees, Joe Horn, Deuce McAllister, Marques Colston, and God er I mean Reggie Bush, and a much better line on offense to work with. They've also got a pretty good defense as well. And Payton is not really "rebuilding", the pieces were set in place when he got there, ie Horn, McAllister, and Colston and Bush were drafted under his regime. Kubiak had to come in here and get us a real #2 WR, a real TE, try to do something with our O line, make the trasition from the 3-4 to the 4-3 in his first year as head coach. I think Kubiak has done a good job in adding some of the pieces, ie Moulds, Daniels, etc. but IMO he could have done a much better job addressing the O line, RB position, LB, and DB spots.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:50 AM
Payton has Brees, Joe Horn, Deuce McAllister, Marques Colston, and God er I mean Reggie Bush, and a much better line on offense to work with. They've also got a pretty good defense as well. And Payton is not really "rebuilding", the pieces were set in place when he got there, ie Horn, McAllister, and Colston and Bush were drafted under his regime. Kubiak had to come in here and get us a real #2 WR, a real TE, try to do something with our O line, make the trasition from the 3-4 to the 4-3 in his first year as head coach. I think Kubiak has done a good job in adding some of the pieces, ie Moulds, Daniels, etc. but IMO he could have done a much better job addressing the O line, RB position, LB, and DB spots.

I know who they have in players....we have players too. We stood behind our guys and revamped this offense as well....we could have gone after Brees...we had a chance to dump out of the Carr contract but decided he was going to take us to the next level (LOL). We could have signed a big time back....we could have drafted Marques Colston, we could have Bush too. Your arugment is what exactly? That your team is an exception to the rule...just because you are a homer?

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 10:52 AM
I guess no NFL team is a fair comparison then....the Saints defense was awful, they start two rookies on offense, had a suspect O line and brought in a new OC and HC and QB in one off-season...but make it work in one year.

Not true.......you could compare the Raiders, Browns or even Miami (although Saben and Crennel have a year head start as they are in their second year).

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:55 AM
Not true.......you could compare the Raiders, Browns or even Miami (although Saben and Crennel have a year head start as they are in their second year).

Miami improved last year. So far this year a step back but they won more than 2 games in a row and didn't have to cut anyone's hair to celebrate such an enormous feat. Comparing your franchise to the Raiders means you are an embarrasment...so I didn't go there. The Browns have shown some fight this year and look improved to me....but then again...I watch more NFL games than most of you guys....so its jmo that they are a better team and are on the rise while we are peddling stagnant water here in Houston.

texan279
10-16-2006, 10:56 AM
I know who they have in players....we have players too. We stood behind our guys and revamped this offense as well....we could have gone after Brees...we had a chance to dump out of the Carr contract but decided he was going to take us to the next level (LOL). We could have signed a big time back....we could have Bush too. Your arugment is what exactly? That your team is an exception to the rule...just because you are a homer?

LMAO a homer? You must not read my posts. My point is the pieces were in place when Payton took over and the Saint's were not bad at all talent wise when he did take over. Our team has sucked from day one and Kubiak came in here and did what he thought was needed to do which obviously was not enough. People expect miracles over night but it doesn't happen, unless you have guys like Horn, McAllister, Colston, Bush, a good offensive line, and a good defense already in place. I just don't think it is fair to compare Payton and the Saints to Kubiak and the Texans, especially since our talent level was much much worse when Kubiak came in than the talent level in New Orleans when Payton took over. And yes, we revamped our offense, in New Orleans the talent was already there.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:57 AM
I've read too many over the years...yeah, I think you are a bit of a homer.

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 10:58 AM
Miami improved last year. So far a step back but they won more than 2 games in a row and didn't have to cut anyone's hair to celebrate such an enormous feat. Comparing your franchise to the Raiders means you are an embarrasment...so I didn't go there. The Browns have shown some fight this year and look improved to me....but then again...I watch more NFL games than most of you guys....so its jmo that they are a better team and are on the rise while we are peddling stagnant water here in Houston.

Again, not a fair comparison as Crennel has had an extra year. The Texans looked ok in the first half against Dallas but in the second half things snowballed, 3 turnovers in 5 minutes will do that. Is your argument that turnovers are due to bad coaching?

Vinny
10-16-2006, 10:59 AM
Again, not a fair comparison as Crennel has had an extra year. The Texans looked ok in the first half against Dallas but in the second half things snowballed, 3 turnovers in 5 minutes will do that. Is your argument that turnovers are due to bad coaching?
not even the Browns are a fair comparison? How about Nebraska? The cornhuskers can't play in the NFL either.

You guys are a bunch of homers. We are a NFL team people. We operate under the same dynamic as everyone else. Wake up.

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 11:00 AM
not even the Browns are a fair comparison? How about Nebraska? The cornhuskers can't play in the NFL either.

You guys are a bunch of homers. We are a NFL team people. We operate under the same dynamic as everyone else. Wake up.

Just saying that your original argument was how Payton turned things around in a short time....

texasguy346
10-16-2006, 11:05 AM
How about the NY Jets? That should be a fair comparision. First year head coach, veteran QB who was injured last year, reworked O-Line starting two rookies at C and LT. Their starting RB has been out all year and is likely done for the season. They've got a RBBC approach although Washington is seeing more action as of late. They're 3-3 and they look like a legit NFL team. They battled the Colts down to the wire. They've played well in every game with the exception of the Jacksonville game.

Heywood
10-16-2006, 11:08 AM
How about the NY Jets? That should be a fair comparision. First year head coach, veteran QB who was injured last year, reworked O-Line starting two rookies at C and LT. Their starting RB has been out all year and is likely done for the season. They've got a RBBC approach although Washington is seeing more action as of late. They're 3-3 and they look like a legit NFL team. They battled the Colts down to the wire. They've played well in every game with the exception of the Jacksonville game.


granted the competition isn't fierce, but i believe we have a winner here for best post of the morning. although, to be fair, the jets schedule hasn't been nearly as tough as houston's, and the jets were beyotch-slapped in their toughest game by like 50-0.

texan279
10-16-2006, 11:10 AM
How about the NY Jets? That should be a fair comparision. First year head coach, veteran QB who was injured last year, reworked O-Line starting two rookies at C and LT. Their starting RB has been out all year and is likely done for the season. They've got a RBBC approach although Washington is seeing more action as of late. They're 3-3 and they look like a legit NFL team. They battled the Colts down to the wire. They've played well in every game with the exception of the Jacksonville game.

I agree somewhat, but the rookie C and LT starting are Mangold and Ferguson, I mean come on two guys who many had rated as the #1 player at their respective positions coming out of college. The teams they have beaten are the Bills, Dolphins, and the Titans, not exactly the toughest competition. The Jags spanked them and battling a team down to the wire doesn't count for anything in the NFL, only the W in the win column.

Honoring Earl 34
10-16-2006, 11:11 AM
You can give the Texans all the excuses you want but the Niners , Titans , Jets , and the Packers have shown some fight . The Saints are a playoff contender who were 3-13 last year . The two teams that still don't get it are the Texans and Raiders .:confused:

noxiousdog
10-16-2006, 11:12 AM
Don't tell this to Sean Payton. I don't think he knows that it takes years and years to rebuild. Most thought that he was handed a mess when he took over the Saints. The Saints fans ran Jim Haslett out of town much like we ran Dom out of here.


There are some caveats. He inherited a team that had one losing season in it's last 5 years, got it's pro-bowl running back healthy, and got a pro-bowl quarterback.

However, the time for excuses is long past. The Titans got a win in Washington. The Saints beat a good Philly team. We haven't even been competitive (no, Miami doesn't count). The so called any RB can work system has been a dismal failure. We can't even muster Reggie Bush numbers running the ball. ;)

texan_fan_8
10-16-2006, 11:12 AM
C'mon people - it's going to get better. It just HAS to! Give Kubiak a chance, he hasn't had much time yet.

You know there are alot of problems on this team. And I know some of you just don't want to hear this. But if ever Carr could hold himself togather for one game. The air got sucked out of the room again once threw the interception. Instead of getting upset and fighting back everyone gives up the second he starts ...

It happens every stinking week. He needs to carry this team on his back. He needs to be a leader and I don't think he is. He can be the best tactical QB in the game but he just doesn't seems to have the mettle to be a leader and everytime he screws up fumble, INT, everyone else gives up. Go back and look @ the tapes.

I sit every week hoping against hope the fire would come back like in first, second and third season and will continue to do so. For those of you with kids, its like the kid with the self-esteem problem, it just never goes away.

Double Barrel
10-16-2006, 11:13 AM
We look 100 times better than we did last year despite the ugly second half...

Hold on a second...we won two games last year, so the verdict is still out. Only time will tell if the 2006 Texans are as good as the 2005 team...or if we're worse.

Yesterday was disgraceful, pathetic, and downright sorry. Two weeks of prep and they play like that?! We are watching futility in action.

jlam
10-16-2006, 11:14 AM
LMAO a homer? You must not read my posts. My point is the pieces were in place when Payton took over and the Saint's were not bad at all talent wise when he did take over. Our team has sucked from day one and Kubiak came in here and did what he thought was needed to do which obviously was not enough. People expect miracles over night but it doesn't happen, unless you have guys like Horn, McAllister, Colston, Bush, a good offensive line, and a good defense already in place. I just don't think it is fair to compare Payton and the Saints to Kubiak and the Texans, especially since our talent level was much much worse when Kubiak came in than the talent level in New Orleans when Payton took over. And yes, we revamped our offense, in New Orleans the talent was already there.

We didn't have Bush, Colston, Brees, most of our offensive line, or half of our starting defense here when Payton took over. This isn't like Gruden taking over Dungy's Tampa defense or something. He and our FO built this team. We run a completely different scheme on both sides of the ball, just like you do. We have virtually no remaining coaching personnel from last year, either. We had been (prior to SS Roman Harper's season ending knee injury) starting 5 rookies. Horn and McAllister are the only guys you can make a case for as holdover talent from last year, and you guys have similar players leftover in Andre Johnson (who has just as much, if not more, potential than Horn and McAllister) and David Carr (will be disputed of course, but I think he has the talent). The Colston part especially gets me since not only was he acquired by the new staff, but you guys got a WR in Moulds via free agency that should be much better than a 7th round rookie from Division IIA.

texan279
10-16-2006, 11:15 AM
What really sucks is at halftime yesterday I actually thought we had a fighting chance to win the game going into the second half.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 11:16 AM
We didn't have Bush, Colston, Brees, most of our offensive line, or half of our starting defense here when Payton took over. This isn't like Gruden taking over Dungy's Tampa defense or something. He and our FO built this team. We run a completely different scheme on both sides of the ball, just like you do. We have virtually no remaining coaching personnel from last year, either. We had been (prior to SS Roman Harper's season ending knee injury) starting 5 rookies. Horn and McAllister are the only guys you can make a case for as holdover talent from last year, and you guys have similar players leftover in Andre Johnson (who has just as much, if not more, potential than Horn and McAllister) and David Carr (will be disputed of course, but I think he has the talent). The Colston part especially gets me since not only was he acquired by the new staff, but you guys got a WR in Moulds via free agency that should be much better than a 7th round rookie from Division IIA.nice post. The homers won't believe me.

texan279
10-16-2006, 11:17 AM
We didn't have Bush, Colston, Brees, most of our offensive line, or half of our starting defense here when Payton took over. This isn't like Gruden taking over Dungy's Tampa defense or something. He and our FO built this team. We run a completely different scheme on both sides of the ball, just like you do. We have virtually no remaining coaching personnel from last year, either. We had been (prior to SS Roman Harper's season ending knee injury) starting 5 rookies. Horn and McAllister are the only guys you can make a case for as holdover talent from last year, and you guys have similar players leftover in Andre Johnson (who has just as much, if not more, potential than Horn and McAllister) and David Carr (will be disputed of course, but I think he has the talent). The Colston part especially gets me since not only was he acquired by the new staff, but you guys got a WR in Moulds via free agency that should be much better than a 7th round rookie from Division IIA.

Yeah well when our running game sucks so bad it's kind of hard to keep drives moving. You guys were not nearly as bad when Payton took over as we were when Kubiak took over.

texan279
10-16-2006, 11:21 AM
nice post. The homers won't believe me.

I don't know where you get this thing that I am a homer like you called me earlier in the thread, especially when I posted earlier in the thread that I don't think Kubiak has done enough to fix our O line, running game, or address the LB and DB positions. All I am saying is that Payton taking over the Saint's is not the same situation as Kubiak taking over here. We have sucked for five seasons. New Orleans has had one losing season in the last 5 seasons, we have had 5 losing seasons in 5 seasons.

texasguy346
10-16-2006, 11:22 AM
I agree somewhat, but the rookie C and LT starting are Mangold and Ferguson, I mean come on two guys who many had rated as the #1 player at their respective positions coming out of college. The teams they have beaten are the Bills, Dolphins, and the Titans, not exactly the toughest competition. The Jags spanked them and battling a team down to the wire doesn't count for anything in the NFL, only the W in the win column.

Keep in mind we played that same team & they spanked us. #1 rated players or not they're still two rookies that had zero experience coming into the league & were charged with protecting Pennington. Not an easy task, but through good coaching these guys look like they belonged out there from day one. This is a team that many pegged to finish last in the AFC East this season, and thus far they look like the only legit competition NE has for the division. Losses do mean something when they play teams like the Pats and Colts close & don't look like a minor league team out there. The Texans have looked outclassed and outmanned by every team they've faced this season. Our one win has come against the Dolphins who, despite playing poorly, still had a legit shot to come back and win it at the end. In all of our losses we've been humiliated & never had a legit shot at winning towards the end of the game. That's unacceptable for an NFL team plain & simple.

jlam
10-16-2006, 11:25 AM
You guys were not nearly as bad when Payton took over as we were when Kubiak took over.

I think that's a matter of opinion. Not an unreasonable one, but subjective nonetheless. It's been said that we have been a talented, underachieving team for several years, but my point is that the large majority of that "talent" was unloaded by Payton during the offseason because of their underachieving.

jlam
10-16-2006, 11:26 AM
New Orleans has had one losing season in the last 5 seasons, we have had 5 losing seasons in 5 seasons.

See my above post. We are a completely different team.

texan279
10-16-2006, 11:26 AM
Keep in mind we played that same team & they spanked us. #1 rated players or not they're still two rookies that had zero experience coming into the league & were charged with protecting Pennington. Not an easy task, but through good coaching these guys look like they belonged out there from day one. This is a team that many pegged to finish last in the AFC East this season, and thus far they look like the only legit competition NE has for the division. Losses do mean something when they play teams like the Pats and Colts close & don't look like a minor league team out there. The Texans have looked outclassed and outmanned by every team they've faced this season. Our one win has come against the Dolphins who, despite playing poorly, still had a legit shot to come back and win it at the end. In all of our losses we've been humiliated & never had a legit shot at winning towards the end of the game. That's unacceptable for an NFL team plain & simple.

I can agree with that, our running game and defense flat out suck and IMO is the majority of our problem.

texan279
10-16-2006, 11:30 AM
See my above post. We are a completely different team.

Because of adding a few players through the draft and free agency and the new coaching staff bringing in new schemes? We are in the middle of switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3 and our offense is learning a new system. Kubiak has had to dump Capers' garbage and hasn't done much to address our O line, RB, LB, or DB positions.

profan
10-16-2006, 11:34 AM
I know who they have in players....we have players too. We stood behind our guys and revamped this offense as well....we could have gone after Brees...we had a chance to dump out of the Carr contract but decided he was going to take us to the next level (LOL). We could have signed a big time back....we could have drafted Marques Colston, we could have Bush too. Your arugment is what exactly? That your team is an exception to the rule...just because you are a homer?

from what i see his argument is that the saints did not have as far to go as we did. They were a better team last year even playing all road games. Don't see where this guy is being a homer. I'm very upset with the team at this point, but i did not expect us to be a playoff contender this year as i realize how bad we are and how far we have to go. It's really funny how at the beginning of the year many of you did not expect much in kubes first year, but now everyone is freaking out when the season is actually playing out like many of you thought.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 11:35 AM
I expect a competitive NFL team. I'd like to see one.

Double Barrel
10-16-2006, 11:38 AM
I expect a competitive NFL team. I'd like to see one.

Ditto. I expected to see some attitude and a desire to win, even though I very much assumed a losing season in Kubiak's first year.

Instead we get the Keystone Cops of the NFL, and a complete inability to have any pride in their game.

noxiousdog
10-16-2006, 11:38 AM
I expect a competitive NFL team. I'd like to see one.

Say what you will about Dom, but until last year's debacle, they were at least competitive nearly every game.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 11:39 AM
Ditto. I expected to see some attitude and a desire to win, even though I very much assumed a losing season in Kubiak's first year.

Instead we get the Keystone Cops of the NFL, and a complete inability to have any pride in their game.Our body language was awful yesterday once we got behind. Especially Carr. When your QB looks gunshy and timid it just doesn't inspire much confidence. I'm really down on this team right now...but hell, we are two drafts away.....if we are that close.

profan
10-16-2006, 11:44 AM
You really expect this team to compete with the top teams in the league? Get real. After coming off a 2-14 season you expect them to compete with the top teams in the first five games of the season? You will see them compete when they start playing less talented teams such as the titans, raiders, browns, jets.

jlam
10-16-2006, 11:46 AM
Because of adding a few players through the draft and free agency and the new coaching staff bringing in new schemes? We are in the middle of switching from the 3-4 to the 4-3 and our offense is learning a new system. Kubiak has had to dump Capers' garbage and hasn't done much to address our O line, RB, LB, or DB positions.

New starters: Offense: WR Colston, QB Brees, RB Bush, RG Jahri Evans (rookie from DIIA), C Jeff Faine.

Defense: DT Hollis Thomas, LB Scott Fujita, LB Scott Shanle, LB Mike Simoneau (not one LB on the team plays this year, all the reserves are new as well), SS Roman Harper (Rookie, now done for year), SS Omar Stoutmire (starting in place of Harper, contributed before), P Steve Weatherford.

This doesn't get into all the backups, over half of which are new players as well. Hardly "a few new players".

Look, I'm not a Texan hater. I'm a huge Saints fan oviously, but I live around Houston and joined this site to keep up with what's going on with the local team besides what the media feeds me (which we all know is mostly bs). The fact is, we both had a lot of personnel decisions to be made by new staffs at the beginning of this season. So far, we've caught a lot of breaks with most of our decisions working out about as well as they could have. You guys have not gotten the same breaks yet. But I firmly believe that the two teams started during the offseason on very even grounds.

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 11:48 AM
We didn't have Bush, Colston, Brees, most of our offensive line, or half of our starting defense here when Payton took over. This isn't like Gruden taking over Dungy's Tampa defense or something. He and our FO built this team. We run a completely different scheme on both sides of the ball, just like you do. We have virtually no remaining coaching personnel from last year, either. We had been (prior to SS Roman Harper's season ending knee injury) starting 5 rookies. Horn and McAllister are the only guys you can make a case for as holdover talent from last year, and you guys have similar players leftover in Andre Johnson (who has just as much, if not more, potential than Horn and McAllister) and David Carr (will be disputed of course, but I think he has the talent). The Colston part especially gets me since not only was he acquired by the new staff, but you guys got a WR in Moulds via free agency that should be much better than a 7th round rookie from Division IIA.


It is much simpler than all of that. The Saints have Deuce McAllister, the Texans do not have Dominick Davis.

The Saints offensive line also has much more talent to a man than do the Texans and they have not had the injuries like the Texans have so far this season.....Weigert, Spencer, Flannigan....how can you coach against that? In one year it is just not possible. Give the new coaches and management a chance to build their team and the depth. I am as disappointed as anyone in the Texans but to place the blame, so harshly and so early, solely on our coaches is not reasonable.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 11:48 AM
You really expect this team to compete with the top teams in the league? Get real. After coming off a 2-14 season you expect them to compete with the top teams in the first five games of the season? You will see them compete when they start playing less talented teams such as the titans, raiders, browns, jets.
We beat the Super Bowl bound Panthers a few years ago...yeah, we expect them to "compete". If you just expect to watch losing football I'm sure you are happy. I don't need to see wins...just be friggin' competitive.

profan
10-16-2006, 11:48 AM
Our body language was awful yesterday once we got behind. Especially Carr. When your QB looks gunshy and timid it just doesn't inspire much confidence. I'm really down on this team right now...but hell, we are two drafts away.....if we are that close.

I do agree with this statement. This was a game for dc to step up and show us he can be a leader. He went into a shell. Don't see him inspiring his team on both offense and defense like another qb in our division, who, just got his first win yesterday.

Kaiser Toro
10-16-2006, 11:49 AM
You really expect this team to compete with the top teams in the league? Get real. After coming off a 2-14 season you expect them to compete with the top teams in the first five games of the season? You will see them compete when they start playing less talented teams such as the titans, raiders, browns, jets.

Compete yes, win no. We took a step back yesterday. I do not expect the current staff, scheme and players to help us get to my 6 win estimate this year. I am not willing to go ape crap on the staff, but I am at the ready since the staff did look green upon hiring.

HOU-TEX
10-16-2006, 11:50 AM
You really expect this team to compete with the top teams in the league? Get real. After coming off a 2-14 season you expect them to compete with the top teams in the first five games of the season? You will see them compete when they start playing less talented teams such as the titans, raiders, browns, jets.

Are you sure about that? The way I see it, every one of those teams can easily beat us. Until this team earns somewhat of an identity, I would not consider any team as less talented.

Nbkan
10-16-2006, 11:53 AM
Simply put there is no fight in this team at the moment. That attitude or lack of it needs to be addressed. We can't just have 1 or 2 guys with fire we need 6 -10. I know we need a lot more than that as well...I took a lot of damn abuse today from Cowboy fans...looking forward to payback but as I see it, that will be a few years down the road.

texan279
10-16-2006, 11:54 AM
New starters: Offense: WR Colston, QB Brees, RB Bush, RG Jahri Evans (rookie from DIIA), C Jeff Faine.

Defense: DT Hollis Thomas, LB Scott Fujita, LB Scott Shanle, LB Mike Simoneau (not one LB on the team plays this year, all the reserves are new as well), SS Roman Harper (Rookie, now done for year), SS Omar Stoutmire (starting in place of Harper, contributed before), P Steve Weatherford.

This doesn't get into all the backups, over half of which are new players as well. Hardly "a few new players".

Look, I'm not a Texan hater. I'm a huge Saints fan oviously, but I live around Houston and joined this site to keep up with what's going on with the local team besides what the media feeds me (which we all know is mostly bs). The fact is, we both had a lot of personnel decisions to be made by new staffs at the beginning of this season. So far, we've caught a lot of breaks with most of our decisions working out about as well as they could have. You guys have not gotten the same breaks yet. But I firmly believe that the two teams started during the offseason on very even grounds.

And who was there before the additions this season that are standout players? Horn, McAllister, Will Smith, Jammal Brown, etc. What players did we have before free agency and the draft of that caliber? Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson are the only ones that pop into my head that would come close.

Chance_C
10-16-2006, 11:55 AM
Don't tell this to Sean Payton. I don't think he knows that it takes years and years to rebuild. Most thought that he was handed a mess when he took over the Saints. The Saints fans ran Jim Haslett out of town much like we ran Dom out of here

The Saints are a great story no doubt about it. I really am happy for them.
However, there is one difference in the whole situation to me. You are implying that we are rebuilding. Tell me then, how can we be rebuilding? We have never built anything, we are still building. That's what bothers me. Why in the hell can't we run block? Is it because our backs are that bad, or is our line that bad, or is it both? It's got to be a little of both, but I don't see how we can go from a decent running team to the worst with supposedly improved personnel (be it from a new starting center, or players moving to back to their natural positions) and a quality offensive coaching staff centered around running the ball. This team has made so many bad decisions over the years (drafts, trades, etc) that we unfortunately still have a long ways to go. Now with Payne out, and Earl, and Lord knows who the hell else, we are in for a long season. I guess the glimmer of sunshine is that we will have a good draft choice (which i'm totally sick of, but if it's in the cards we may as well play them). Although there will be alot of pissed off people when we don't pick AP.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 11:55 AM
And who was there before the additions this season that are standout players? Horn, McAllister, Will Smith, Jammal Brown, etc. What players did we have before free agency and the draft of that caliber? Andre Johnson and Dunta Robinson are the only ones that pop into my head that would come close.

We could have drafted Will Smith and Jammal Brown...along with bush and Colston. Crying that they have these guys isn't helping your argument....Enough with the homer drivel!

profan
10-16-2006, 11:55 AM
Are you sure about that? The way I see it, every one of those teams can easily beat us. Until this team earns somewhat of an identity, I would not consider any team as less talented.

When i said less talented, i was not talking about being less talented than us, but less talented then the teams that have beaten us to date. I see these upcoming games being close and competitive win or lose. No the blowouts we have been seeing lately.

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 11:59 AM
New starters: Offense: WR Colston, QB Brees, RB Bush, RG Jahri Evans (rookie from DIIA), C Jeff Faine.

Defense: DT Hollis Thomas, LB Scott Fujita, LB Scott Shanle, LB Mike Simoneau (not one LB on the team plays this year, all the reserves are new as well), SS Roman Harper (Rookie, now done for year), SS Omar Stoutmire (starting in place of Harper, contributed before), P Steve Weatherford.

This doesn't get into all the backups, over half of which are new players as well. Hardly "a few new players".

Look, I'm not a Texan hater. I'm a huge Saints fan oviously, but I live around Houston and joined this site to keep up with what's going on with the local team besides what the media feeds me (which we all know is mostly bs). The fact is, we both had a lot of personnel decisions to be made by new staffs at the beginning of this season. So far, we've caught a lot of breaks with most of our decisions working out about as well as they could have. You guys have not gotten the same breaks yet. But I firmly believe that the two teams started during the offseason on very even grounds.

The Saints still have first round pick Jammal Brown at left tackle, John Stinchcomb at right tackle compared to Salaam and Winston. That right there is not a fair deck of cards.

Duece and Bush? or Dayne and Gado? Sure we could have had Bush but he wanted to break the bank and common thought at the time was that DD would be back for action.

Defense, the start of a rebuilt line has begun, still needing addtions especially after losing Seth Payne again. The linebackers have a solid foundation in rookie Demeco Ryans and hope to get Wong back this week. The secondary is not holding up and the return of Faggins should help ease some pain but it is definitely an area of need.

texan279
10-16-2006, 12:00 PM
We could have drafted Will Smith and Jammal Brown...along with bush and Colston. Crying that they have these guys isn't helping your argument....Enough with the homer drivel!

How am I a homer by saying that we were a WORSE team before this season than the Saints were??? The point I am trying to make is they had more established talent than we did going into the season. I am not crying about anything. Earlier in the thread you tried to make it out like Payton is turning miracles in New Orleans and I am just pointing out that there was talent there when he took over and we have sucked since day one. I don't see where you get homer from at all.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:00 PM
The Saints still have first round pick Jammal Brown at left tackleYeah, the guy we passed for Travis Johnson.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:01 PM
How am I a homer by saying that we were a WORSE team before this season than the Saints were??? The point I am trying to make is they had more established talent than we did going into the season. I am not crying about anything.
You listed a ton of players we could have drafted or pulled in but we passed on all of them. We don't operate in a vaccum.....they are winning with guys we passed on. To cry about how these guys are good and not acknowledge that we passed on them for other players is ridiculous.

texan279
10-16-2006, 12:02 PM
Yeah, the guy we passed for Travis Johnson.

And the guys who passed on him are no longer here...

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:03 PM
And the guys who passed on him are no longer here...
and tell me how this isn't relevant. We suck because of our decisions....no more, no less. Love your excuses...but they are weak.

texan279
10-16-2006, 12:04 PM
You listed a ton of players we could have drafted or pulled in but we passed on all of them. We don't operate in a vaccum.....they are winning with guys we passed on. To cry about how these guys are good and not acknowledge that we passed on them for other players is ridiculous.

The old regime passed on them, not the new one. My point is the talent is there, whether we passed on the guys or not was not the point I was trying to make. And once again, I'm not crying about anything, just pointing out the fact there was more talent there when Payton took over than there was here when Kubiak took over.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:05 PM
Old regime...new regime...same scouts. Sucks to be us. Still excusing instead of producing.

texan279
10-16-2006, 12:05 PM
and tell me how this isn't relevant. We suck because of our decisions....no more, no less. Love your excuses...but they are weak.

So you are crying about the decisions that Casserly and Capers made? What's the point of that? It has nothing to do with our front office personnel now and their decisions.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:07 PM
So you are crying about the decisions that Casserly and Capers made? What's the point of that? It has nothing to do with our front office personnel now and their decisions.
I'm not crying. You are the one crying that it's not fair to compare. Weak stuff 279...but I don't expect riveting insight from you.

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 12:08 PM
We could have drafted Will Smith and Jammal Brown...along with bush and Colston. Crying that they have these guys isn't helping your argument....Enough with the homer drivel!

Hindsight is always 20/20. The Texans have been trying to fill holes since they started but you must have forgotten that teams are built through the draft. And by the way, the Texans are an expansion team and have only had a handful of drafts, so somewhere in your argument reality must set in. That said, if Brown would have not been selected then we would not have Travis Johnson who filled a need at d-line along with an extra 3rd rounder (which turned into offensive tackle Winston who is now starting).

texan279
10-16-2006, 12:10 PM
I'm not crying. You are the one crying that it's not fair to compare. Weak stuff 279...but I don't expect riveting insight from you.

Way to stray from the discussion at hand to personal attacks. By the way, the director of college scouting we have now is in his first year with us, so this excuse about failed drafts in the past because of the "same scouts" that are still here doesn't quite fly...

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:11 PM
Hindsight is always 20/20. The Texans have been trying to fill holes since they started but you must have forgotten that teams are built through the draft. And by the way, the Texans are an expansion team and have only had a handful of drafts, so somewhere in your argument reality must set in. That said, if Brown would have not been selected then we would not have Travis Johnson who filled a need at d-line along with an extra 3rd rounder (which turned into offensive tackle Winston who is now starting).Hindsight is also reality. To just dismiss poor drafting and stating the Saints are more talented while forgetting we passed on all these guys is homer-drivel at it's finest.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:12 PM
Way to stray from the discussion at hand to personal attacks. By the way, the director of college scouting we have now is in his first year with us, so this excuse about failed drafts in the past because of the "same scouts" that are still here doesn't quite fly...It's not a personal attack....I don't think much of your insight. I'm just stating it plainly. Bobby Grier has been with us since day one.

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=87&section=TH%20Front%20Office

texan279
10-16-2006, 12:15 PM
It's not a personal attack....I don't think much of your insight. I'm just stating it plainly. Bobby Grier has been with us since day one.

http://www.houstontexans.com/team/front_office_detail.php?PRKey=87&section=TH%20Front%20Office

Bobby Grier is the Associate director of pro scouting, Dale Strahm is our new director of college scouting. I would think our director of college scouting would have more to do with draft selections than an associate of pro scouting...

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:17 PM
basically, we have the same scouting team. Nitpick it all you want...but the scouts get us the talent...the talent you claim it's unfair to compare with the Saints.

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 12:20 PM
Hindsight is also reality. To just dismiss poor drafting and stating the Saints are more talented while forgetting we passed on all these guys is homer-drivel at it's finest.

I thought the argument was the coaches performance this year? I thought they did a great job in the draft this year. You didn't? Past years drafts were not up to par but I guess that is why CC and DC are no longer here. We could have 2 second round picks playing today if Bennie Joppru and Tony Hollings were not selected but again I am not sure how that is related to the current coaching staff argument.

Vinny
10-16-2006, 12:21 PM
hard to tell if we had a great draft....It is because we say it is? Once the players play up to their draft status...I'll consider it a great draft. Till then, the jury is out.

Runner
10-16-2006, 12:26 PM
hard to tell if we had a great draft....It is because we say it is? Once the players play up to their draft status...I'll consider it a great draft. Till then, the jury is out.

Williams - need to see some more progress over the next couple of years.

Demeco - excellent pick.

Spencer - 1.5 games to review. I'm not voting him to the Pro Bowl yet. He gets hurt next year and fans will call him a bust and bad pick just like Joppru.

Winston - no PT worth reviewing. Can't start in front of Weigert.

Daniels - pre-season or regular season?

How can you hold off calling the draft great? :sarcasm:

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 12:35 PM
hard to tell if we had a great draft....It is because we say it is? Once the players play up to their draft status...I'll consider it a great draft. Till then, the jury is out.

Ryans has exceeded my expectations. Spencer was looking good before he broke his leg and we will have tape soon on Winston. Mario has obviously not met the high expectations but I don't think many 1st picks ever do in the first 6 weeks of their rookie season. You certainly can't say Mario is a bust already, just as you cannot say the same of our coaching staff. That is not being a homer, just a realist. It takes rookies time to adjust and to grow into a superstar. It takes coaches time to right their ship as well when severely off course.

tsip
10-16-2006, 12:37 PM
So you are crying about the decisions that Casserly and Capers made? What's the point of that? It has nothing to do with our front office personnel now and their decisions.


We've made a lot of bad decisions since C&C left, so let's focus on today.
First, the 'new(Kubiak & Co)' has turned our RB situation into a 'laughingstock.'
Second, under the 'new,' we have a weak secondary-not a lot of personnel changes were made in this area because (like our RB situation) Kubiak said we were fine--same with are LB/DL,etc.

Sure, Kubiak inherited a mess and that is why he got the job, so those are a given. The question is WHAT has Kubiak done to improve the team, to make it better than it was last year or his first day? Are we seeing steady or even any improvement from the teamn on a weekly basis? Is there any part of the team-as a whole-OF or DF or ST that is a major improvement or gives a hint that that area is headed in the right direction?

Are we building a 'foundation' for the future or are we still trying to 'find' ourselves? What things has Kubiak put into 'place' are an indication of 'better things to come?' I'm not expecting ALL of our problems to be fixed/solved over night, but I am questioning whether we've even started...

Effective decision making or lack there of can make or break a mgr in any business, and that includes the NFL. Like any other business, a decision made today can have an 'impact' now or somewhere down the line--short term vs long term. Saying this, has Gary made decisions that are effective, whether in the 'short' or the 'long?'

I'm not saying we should be a winning team this year, but I believe a) we should be competitive and b) we should be showing signs that the decisions we are making 'today' are headed in the right direction. IMO, those 2 things are not happening and--unlike some posters--I don't believe it should take 'years' to see any 'fruit' from Kubiak's decions.:twocents: :lightbulb:

Honoring Earl 34
10-16-2006, 12:43 PM
I think McNair has to blow up or we'll be the Houston Clippers .

Texansbacker
10-16-2006, 12:43 PM
We've made a lot of bad decisions since C&C left, so let's focus on today.
First, the 'new(Kubiak & Co)' has turned our RB situation into a 'laughingstock.'
Second, under the 'new,' we have a weak secondary-not a lot of personnel changes were made in this area because (like our RB situation) Kubiak said we were fine--same with are LB/DL,etc.

Sure, Kubiak inherited a mess and that is why he got the job, so those are a given. The question is WHAT has Kubiak done to improve the team, to make it better than it was last year or his first day? Are we seeing steady or even any improvement from the teamn on a weekly basis? Is there any part of the team-as a whole-OF or DF or ST that is a major improvement or gives a hint that that area is headed in the right direction?

Are we building a 'foundation' for the future or are we still trying to 'find' ourselves? What things has Kubiak put into 'place' are an indication of 'better things to come?' I'm not expecting ALL of our problems to be fixed/solved over night, but I am questioning whether we've even started...

Effective decision making or lack there of can make or break a mgr in any business, and that includes the NFL. Like any other business, a decision made today can have an 'impact' now or somewhere down the line--short term vs long term. Saying this, has Gary made decisions that are effective, whether in the 'short' or the 'long?'

I'm not saying we should be a winning team this year, but I believe a) we should be competitive and b) we should be showing signs that the decisions we are making 'today' are headed in the right direction. IMO, those 2 things are not happening and--unlike some posters--I don't believe it should take 'years' to see any 'fruit' from Kubiak's decions.:twocents: :lightbulb:


I think we showed improvement in the first half against a good dallas team. The defense got pressure and sacks on Bledsoe and held them to 3 points. All of that with no running game. The implosion occured in the 3rd quarter with 3 turnovers in 5 minutes. How can a coach overcome those type of mistakes against a team that is stocked with more talent?

tsip
10-16-2006, 01:40 PM
:brickwall :brickwall :brickwall "I think we showed improvement in the first half against a good dallas team. The defense got pressure and sacks on Bledsoe and held them to 3 points. All of that with no running game. The implosion occured in the 3rd quarter with 3 turnovers in 5 minutes. How can a coach overcome those type of mistakes against a team that is stocked with more talent?"

We had all kinds of oppurtunities in the first half and did zilch--running up the gut twice from the 1 yd line when we have no running game--give me a break. As long as the score was close, Kubiak's game plan was to do 'nothing.' Kubiak's excuse was the weather! What a crock! What are we going to do when we go to New England or Cleveland? FORFIET?

'...overcome mistakes?' How did the Cowboys over come their mistakes, like 4 face mask penalties? They kept their composure and their focus and--unlike the Texans have failed to do all year--they played for 4 qtrs. Too, we're going to get ints when we throw to the same WR over and over again who is tripled covered but-you know what-excuses for 'justifying' losing' are a Texan Trademark. IMO, this team will never win when as long as there is a fan base that accepts 'excuses.' Look at the winning teams/programs-Cohwer,Parcells, Belechick--you won't hear excuses from anybody related to these teams, including the fans.

We had no game plan in this game focused at the Cowboys--look at the Eagles. They 'killed' Dallas with a 'verticle' passing game, especaially exploiting poor coverage by Roy Williams--what was our GP? Dink and dunk--Carr did not even avg 5 ypa--did we even try to stretch the field?

Kubiak coached this game 'not to lose.' As long as this game was close, he was going to do nothing. Then, when the Cowboys started scoring, he made no adjustments--still dinking and dunking.

So far, I see one difference between Capers and Kubiak--where Capers says 'execute,' Kubiak says 'advantage.' Caper's team did not 'execute' plays, while Gary's team does not take 'advantage' of situations---both are excuses...not what we need all over again..........:yahoo:

Jerry Jones
10-16-2006, 01:49 PM
I think McNair has to blow up or we'll be the Houston Clippers .

i don't care who you are thats funny right there.....

mexican_texan
10-16-2006, 02:27 PM
Only homers thought we were going to be competitive this season. Granted, I was thinking playoffs, but I also expected playoffs last year. We are clearly rebuilding and the offense is learning a complex scheme. Losing our starting RB, OLB(Wong), KR, and our second corner in Faggins hurt this team. Not to mention how young our D is(we are putting our hopes on a guy that is barely old enough to legally drink.) We are rebuilding. Simple as that. You gotta have a foundation before you can build a skyscraper.

tsip
10-16-2006, 03:07 PM
"You gotta have a foundation before you can build a skyscraper."


...OK, so what are we doing now on the field to build that foundation? A foundation needs blocks--what blocks do we have so far that we have started toward constructing our foundation?:cowboy1:

mexican_texan
10-16-2006, 03:15 PM
"You gotta have a foundation before you can build a skyscraper."


...OK, so what are we doing now on the field to build that foundation? A foundation needs blocks--what blocks do we have so far that we have started toward constructing our foundation?:cowboy1:
The systems. We have the crates, we still need the blocks.