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View Full Version : Our backs vs. Dallas.


thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 07:03 PM
My first impression, was that the line didn't creat any holes for our runningbacks. I'm going to watch the game again, and disect each running play. there were only 14 of them, so this shouldn't take too long. I hope we can spare the bandwith.

I will admit, that I'm going in with the beliefe, that the problem is the line, so my analasys(sp) will more than likely reflect this. You are welcome to offer your analasis as well, and call me out if I'm not being fair.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 07:04 PM
Running game: Dallas.

1st Qtr
13:47 1st&10, Hou 43. 2 WR, 2 TE….
Dallas has a 5 man front, Ware on Owens, on the left side, Ellis(??) on Putz on the right. It looks like the Denver stretch play to the left. Owen get’s pushed back, Ware maintains his position in what would be a running lane, as he never took his eyes off the running back. Salaam & Pitts attack Chris Canty. Pitts Quickly leaves the block to attack the LB(James). Pitts doesn’t hit or explode into James, instead James knocks him back. On a second effort, Pitts attacks James again, but james shrugs him off, and allows him to fall to the ground. At this time, Ware has already left his block on Owens, and is on top of Dane. The Cut back lane is occupied by GregEllis, who is unaffected by the play of Putzier. Flanagan has trouble preventing the NT from moving in th direction of the play. Dayne actually has to jump over Flanagan to try to squeeze into the whole left by Pitts….. Mckinney actually does a good job of getting to the LB, and putting a good hit on him. Keeping him out of the play. Weigart does a good job of getting position against Spear(sp), and is moving him in the direction the line should be moving.

IMHO, Owen needs to do a better job of moving his man(ware) in the direction of the play. Salaam is doing well, against a big man, moving him in the right direction. If he could move him strecth the end out farther(he was kinda hindered since Owen didn’t do his job) it would help. Pitts needs to put LBs on their butts when he hits them. Flanagan should’ve been able to use his leverage(the NT was standing up) to throw the NT to the ground, and move on….. McKinney did a great job, Wiegart did a great job, Putz can act like a football player, and it would have helped this run tremendously.

Moulds putting a block on Newman would've helped had the Lane been there.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 07:10 PM
I also want to add, that it is next to impossible to say for 100% accuracy who had what responsibility, and who we can blame for what.... I'm just going to report what I see, and what I think would have helped our boys.

Marcus
10-15-2006, 07:17 PM
My first impression, was that the line didn't create any holes for our running backs.
That was my impression from watching the game, too. Funny how everyone seems to think it was Dayne and Gado's fault all the time.:shrug:

Can you say . . . scapegoats?

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 07:26 PM
13:15 2nd & 9 Hou 42. 2 WR split Wideright, & wide left. Two tightends. One back.
Dallas has a 5 man line, 2 LBs centered behind the defensive line. Press corners, Roy williams 7 yards off the ball on the left. Looks like straight up man blocking, with a double team on the left side.

Owen is on the right side he does a great job getting off the line but doesn’t attack the linebacker, instead he tries to occupy 58(Brady James) who pretty much just punches him and tosses him before making the play on Dayne.

Wiegart does a good job sliding down, staying in front of Ellis….. Ellis is totally out of the play.

There is a huge hole on the right side, however when Dayne gets the ball from David, Spears has already overpowered McKinney, and is in the backfield. Dayne is strong enough to Elbow Spears away, and is sprinting(as much as the little bowling ball can sprint) away from Spears, as Marcus grabs the whole in Dayne’s Helmet, prompting the penalty call.

Had McKinney turned Spears away from the play, and Owen put a real block on James, this would have been a huge gain, as you know Dayne won’t out run anybody on the field, but it’s going to take a load to bring him down, the first guy wouldn’t do it.

Now there is a huge hole to the left side, Flanagan does his job, and doesn’t give up any ground to Ferguson, the NT. & Pitts & Salaam takes care of Canty on the other side. If either Pitts or Salaam would release into the second level, I’d think this was a zone blocking play, but as they appear to focus on an assignment, It looks like man blocking to me.

But since Dayne had a big hole on the right side, he got to that hole in good time, I won’t fault him for not taking the cut back. Both holes were huge.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 07:45 PM
12:53 2nd & 4 Hou 37……. I formation. 1 TE, 2 WRs …..

Dallas is in a 5 man front, linebackers behind the line, Henry is 4 yards off AJ at the first down marker, I can’t see the safeties, or Newman.

Dayne follows Cook straight up the middle, McKinney assists Flanagan with the NT, taking him out of the play, then releases to take out the LB. But the LB ain’t having it, and brushes the big ol McKinney out of the way, working his way back to the middle of the field, where he could’ve laid a hit on Dayne, had he made it that far. As Cook was manhandled, and tossed 10 yards upfield by Bradie James.

Pitt’s first step is to the right, at a 45 degree angle….. classic ZBS, but since Canty takes an inside slant, he is out of position & tries to compensate…. Canty makes short work of him, and get’s Dayne at the LOS.

Salaam takes a great first step, & because Ware is so fast off the snap, he hits him square in the chest. You’d think that Ware would be easy to move, because he should be totally off balance, but Salaam doesn’t get him any further away from the line. Had Dayne decided to run in this direction, there would have only been a small crease for him to go through.

But Dayne sees a huge hole right in the middle of the Oline. Just like Kubiak drew up for them. However, as soon as he gets the ball, Chris Canty is headed straight for him. It’s actually pretty impressive, that Dayne is fast enough to get by him, but Canty’s long arms, and solid technique slows him down enough for MarcusSpear to toss Wiegart, and hit Dayne in the backfield as well.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 08:14 PM
11:16 2nd & 3 Dall 16. I formation split right…. Andre Wide Left, Owen Wide Right, Moulds right slot. Owen Motions to the left side next to Salaam.
Dallas is playing man coverage, Corners tight, Williams follows Owen.

Both recievers do a good job with their down field blocks. Everyone but Flannagan & Owen tries to move left. Owen is getting knocked straight back by Ware, & Flanagan is trying to move the NT to the right. If Owen would attack Ware, and move him to the left, there would be a hole. Salaam goes left, but the DE doesn’t. He holds his position, and allow Salaam to go left around him. Flanagan is trying to push his man to the right, his man is trying to go left….. if Flanagan would give ground, a whole whould open up, but as he is holding his own, it’s a stalemate, and RonDayne has no where to go.

Both McKinney & Wiegart do an excellent job moving to the left, and creating a huge whole on the right. Cook does a good enough job blocking Ellis, had Dayne chosen to go to the right.

However, this hole was not there when Dayne got the ball. It didn’t open up, till Dayne had already hit Flanagan. In this case, Dayne was too fast getting to the LOS.

If he had made his decision when he got the ball, to go to the right, it would have been a big gain. Touchdown even as there is no one behind the LOS. The whole wasn’t there at this time, but from my chair, with my pause button, and slow motion, I can see everything is stopped on the left side, and the right side is moving like it should be.

Instead, Dayne takes one step after the handoff, and for some reason decides to go to the left….

If anything, he should line up an extra yard or two behind David, so he’ll have more time to decide where the play is developing. After that step(after getting the handoff) it would have to have been an extreme cut (not something Dayne does, but a guy like ClintonPortis does easily).

But, I'll be more than happy to blame this poor run on the running back.

it would've been a touchdown.

BlueThunder
10-15-2006, 08:17 PM
Dallas has a heck of a tandem maybe top in the NFL...There best RB may not have carried the ball today..That Tyson Thompson is big strong and the fastest RB on that team.I will bet with 300 reps he could possibly take the starting job..I don't see anything on this team that could challenge JJ.Julius is still not completely developed but this is the first year he was ready to start and carry 300 times...He's going to get better as the year goes on..This year he just reached the carries most runners come out of college with.He was young and green when he got to Dallas..

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 08:29 PM
10:40 3rd & 3 Dal 15 Single back, 3 WR, strongside right Kevin Walter wide left, motions next to Salaam, AJ in the slot left, Moulds Wide right.

Dallas has a four man front(most of their sacks against philly came out of this 4 man front) 2 LBs behind the line. Henry is manned on Walter, and moves with him on the motion. Newman is over AJ in the slot, RoyWilliams is 7 yards off the ball to the right side. Looks like Watkins in coverage over Moulds… It may be Glenn, I can’t tell, as there should be one more guy on the field, that I can’t see.

It’s a pitch around the left side…. Salaam Pulls, to block for Dayne, but is chopblocked by Newman(no call). Dayne turns the corner, picks up 7 yards total, then gets his helmet ripped off.

If Henry didn’t pull that helmet off, I think Dayne may very well have taken this one for a touchdown, as it is the pulling of the helmet that pulls him out of bounds. All he has to do, is run over Watkins, and he’s in……. maybe easier said than done, but you know Dayne is a beast to bring down.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 09:00 PM
10:19 1st & Goal Dal 4. I formation split right. Eric motions from wide left to the right slot. AJ is far right, Strongside left.

Dallas is in a 5 man front, two LBs behind the line, both safeties in the endzone. After Eric motions to the right, Ware puts his hand on the ground, and Ellis(??) motions out to cover him.

1st step, is 45 degrees right…. Definite ZBS. Owen doesn’t get any movement out of Ware. They just lock up, and stand there for a while.

Salaam & Pitts explode off the line, and there appears to be some room there to run, depending on whether or not Ware can get off his block…. I don’t think he’d have a problem. But any way.

Salaam, looks like he’s got his weight way over his feet. Canty kinda bobs & weaves, and Salaam is on the ground. Pitts. (56) James, and takes him to the back of the endzone.(Good job Chester Pitts).

Flanagan plays patty-cake with Ferguson, who sheds this block with ease, and makes first contact with Dayne at the LOS. Then Canty jumps on top of them, then Spears falls on top of him.

McKinney does an excellent job hitting Ayodele & stopping him from penetrating the line. But he needs be able to move a linebacker anywhere he wants on the field.

Wiegart is a little slow off the ball, but does a better job of moving the bigger Spears back towards the endzone.

Now when Dayne gets the ball, the cut back lane to the left appears to be opened up. Except that Canty is standing there, at the LOS with Salaam at his feet. I wouldn’t want to run in that hole. There is a small crease on the right side, that Dayne does elect to take, and get’s to the three.

I would’ve followed my fullback to the next lane to the right. Moulds is blocking Ellis pretty well. Then Cook takes over when Moulds releases. Only RoyWilliams & PatWatkins could have made a play, and they were both in the endzone when Cook got to Ellis, which would be the same time Dayne would have got to this hole.

this was a positive play, so I won't assess blame on anyone.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 09:09 PM
9:43 2nd & Goal from the one. I formation. 1WR 2 TE, goal line formation.

Power run game. The Oline is perfect. Owens throws a nice cutblock to take Ware out of the play. Pitts & Flanagan block to the right, opening a huge hole. Cook finds it, and lays a block on Ayodele. Had Ronnie followed him, it would have been six. Instead, he thinks he can power his way through the right side of the line, where everyone seems to be piling up…… he may have to, had Newman not come around and pull him out of the hole he was trying to burrow.

But, he made a conscious decision not to follow his fullback……

Fault…… Dayne

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 09:29 PM
5:38 3rd & 4 Hou32 Single back, 3 WR strongside right. AJ motions to right slot.
Newman follows AJ, Corners are in press coverage, 1 safety deep, LBs behind LOS.

Dallas sends all 5 linemen. Making it a 5 on 5 competition. We are overloaded on the left side, Salaam takes on Canty. Blocks him OK.

Pitts is slow off the ball, but puts a decent block on Ayodele coming from the second level….. Pitts is just waiting on him.

Flanagan gets bullrushed by Ratliff, who discards him on our side of the ball, and tackles Gado…. About the same time Ware gets to Gado, as Ware came around the left side free.

There is absolutely nothing that looks like a running lane as Spears punches McKinney in the gut, then leaves him for dead. & is in the backfield to fall on Gado, just in case he was strong enough to carry Ratliff & Ware on his back.

Wiegart did a good job picking up Ellis.

Fault Oline.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 09:41 PM
3:09 2nd & 1 Hou 11. I formation, 1 WR. Right side.

Dallas has 6 men on the LOS. Newman on AJ.

ZBS, stretching to the right. Everything looks like it’s going well, except Weary never gets off his initial block. He & Flanagan are trying to block #93, after that, he should progress into the second level, and take out Roy Williams. Instead, Roy is in the hole as Cook gets there. Cook is no match for Roy. Gado can wait a sec, and hit that hole again as Roy Williams clears Cook out of the hole pretty quickly. But instead, he tries to cut it back. Now this is what I call an extremem cut, He is at the LOS, not even a step behind the line, but manages to cut it back to the left side.

Unfortuanately, In the course of the game, Owens still hasn’t beefed up enough to handle Ware, who is tossing him to & fro……. And makes the play on Gado. Henry also comes in untouched, and lays a blow on Gado.

Fault…… Oline.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 10:18 PM
5:19 2nd & 6 Hou30….. I formation split right. 2WR Owen wide right, motions to RT. Moulds Right slot, AJ Wide Left.

Dallas has a 4 man front. Ellis is Wide out covering Owen as a reciever. Newman is covering Moulds in the slot, and Henry is on AJ.

This is straight up man blocking. Ware goes wide, Salaam does a good job staying in front of him. All the guys stand up as if they are pass blocking.

Pitts does good picking up Canty. Nothing spectacular, but he is accounted for, and occupied. Flanagan gets a little push on the NT…… not much at all, but a little.

Weary shoots out and takes on Ayodele, but doesn’t move him any. Ayodele doesn’t make a play, but Weary doesn’t really clear out a hole either.

Wiegart takes on Spears, and if they were pass blocking, he’d have done a good job. But as this is a run play, and Spears is on the LOS, as he sheds the block, and jumps on Dayne….. Wiegart didn’t really do crap.

Owen comes up, and get’s in Bradie James’ way. But not enough to really be called block or anything.

Cook comes up, and lays a good block on Ellis. He hits him, and thought he doesn’t drive him back, had Dayne followed him, he’d have been able to get a big gain.

But Dayne tries to exploit the little bitty seam that formed between Wiegart, & Flanagan. As I mentioned before, Wiegart is barely occupying Spears, Weary hasn’t cleared the hole, and Owen is helping BradieJames shut the hole down.

The biggest chance for a gain was to Dayne’s left. Pitts is working on Canty, Ware ran himself out of the play, and AJ has a good block on Henry. But Dayne appears to not even see it.

Fault….. Dayne.. he had three choices, and chose the worse of the three.

This was a run for 4 yards...... so it can't be considered a failure..... but there was a much bigger gain to either side of the hole Dayne chose.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 10:36 PM
3:21 3rd & 1 Dal41. I formation 2 TE strongside right. Daniels motions to the left side.

Anthony Henry motions with him Newman is in press coverage on AJ, wide left. There are 6 Cowboys on the LOS. RoyWilliams is in the LB spot next to BradieJames.

This looks like a Denver stretch play to the left, except the left side doesn’t stretch. Everyone from Flanagan down takes the first step left, with the left foot at 45 degrees… Pitts shots into the second level, and blocks BradieJames, he chips him, and James is allowed to get in on the play.

The nose tackle actually makes the play as Flanagan moves him to the left.

Salaam takes on Canty, but Canty can’t be moved. Owen waits for Ellis to decide to rush the LOS. I think Owen should have come off the line & layed a hit on Ellis. At least he would have been off the LOS, allowing Flanagan & the rest of the line to stretch in that direction.

There was no cutback lane. If anything, Dayne could have tried to bounce it outside, and get a couple, but since Owen was barely getting in the way of Ellis, I doubt he would have gotten much on that one.

Cook took the only hole available, and Dayne followed him in for no gain.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 10:50 PM
3:21 3rd & 1 Dal41. I formation 2 TE strongside right. Daniels motions to the left side.

Anthony Henry motions with him Newman is in press coverage on AJ, wide left. There are 6 Cowboys on the LOS. RoyWilliams is in the LB spot next to BradieJames.

This looks like a Denver stretch play to the left, except the left side doesn’t stretch. Everyone from Flanagan down takes the first step left, with the left foot at 45 degrees… Pitts shots into the second level, and blocks BradieJames, he chips him, and James is allowed to get in on the play.

The nose tackle actually makes the play as Flanagan moves him to the left.

Salaam takes on Canty, but Canty can’t be moved. Owen waits for Ellis to decide to rush the LOS. I think Owen should have come off the line & layed a hit on Ellis. At least he would have been off the LOS, allowing Flanagan & the rest of the line to stretch in that direction.

There was no cutback lane. If anything, Dayne could have tried to bounce it outside, and get a couple, but since Owen was barely getting in the way of Ellis, I doubt he would have gotten much on that one.

Cook took the only hole available, and Dayne followed him in for no gain.

0:34 3rd & 1 Dal 31…. Single back, 3 WR, strongside right.

Dallas has 6 guys on the LOS, Glenn is playing 5 yards beyound the first down marker. 6 yards in front of Moulds.

Straight up man blocking… every body doing what they can…. RoyWilliams attacks the line as soon as he sees Dayne open his hands… he comes into the hole that Dayne is trying to hit, knocking Dayne back. Dayne tries with a second effort, But is tackled by 3 Cowboys, including RoyWilliams.

I honestly would have thought Dayne would win a one on one with RoyWilliams, but Williams got a good angle on Dayne, and hit him in the side, and not head on.


I can’t really blame anyone Since they all did what they were supposed to do.
Maybe if our RB was faster, he could’ve got to the LOS before Roy, but I doubt he’d have got a chance to make a second effort had Roy taken a better angle.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 11:06 PM
3rd Qtr.
5:42 1st & 10 Hou25. I formation split right. Owen Daniels wide right, Moulds in the slot right, Aj wide left. Owen motions to RT.

RoyWilliams motions with Daniels. Dallas is in a 5 man front, 3 men down, both linebackers standing up.

This is straight up man blocking. Dayne goes straight up the middle. Our Oline has moved the Dline off the line, which makes up the 2 yards Dayne gains….. but that’s all.. Wiegarts man comes off his block, and tackles Dayne as he reached the LOS.

Another running back may have tried to cut it to the right… as there was some daylight there. But Ware is barely toying with Cook, and tosses him as Dayne gets the ball. I doubt there was much to be had….. but there was definitely nothing to the Left…. Looks like the guys are forming a pocket.

I’m going to give the speedy back of your choice the benefit of the doubt, and say that he would have gained more than 2 yards had he cut right.

Fault……. Dayne.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 11:10 PM
& that's basically it, we don't try to run the ball any more.

Now I will say, even though we weren't making big gains on our runs in the first half, we were controlling the clock, and staying on the field. May very well have been because of the passing game that we were moving the ball, but I don't agree with abandoning the run game like we did. We got to the point to where we only ran on first down, then go to throwing. Or we'd try to run on 3rd & 1.

I think we were too predictable.

Then in those situations, where you've got big Ole GreggEllis, or poor covering Roy Williams on OwenDaniels, you check out of your run, and exploit that mismatch.

HJam72
10-15-2006, 11:20 PM
Thanks for the recap, TK.

dat_boy_yec
10-16-2006, 12:05 AM
After reading your recap I gotta ask how did you come to the conclusion that the O-line is the one that should shoulder most of the load? A recurring theme throughout your posts were, he chose the wrong hole, he didn't get to the hole fast enough, I thought he would have done better, but they were able to bring him down. I mean c'mon just admit we need better RB's.

thunderkyss
10-16-2006, 12:15 AM
After reading your recap I gotta ask how did you come to the conclusion that the O-line is the one that should shoulder most of the load? A recurring theme throughout your posts were, he chose the wrong hole, he didn't get to the hole fast enough, I thought he would have done better, but they were able to bring him down. I mean c'mon just admit we need better RB's.

I do admit that a different type of back will more than likely do better with what we've got. But if these guys would do what they are supposed to do, I think RonDayne is almost perfect.

A little more speed can't hurt anybody, but I like what Ronnie brings to the table.

I just wrote these reviews, got something to eat, and got in on some other threads. I haven't broke them down to see how many I thought Dayne was at fault, and how many the line was at fault.

Ibar_Harry
10-16-2006, 12:54 AM
I would say we ran 14 times too many. We had to take Dallas out early and we didn't and that was the story of the game. I keep saying we have to pass until the other team thinks we are going to pass and nothing else. They know when we get in short yardage that Kubiak is going to run, run, run the ball. I'm sorry, but we are really sorry at play calling. The only person running the ball should be Carr. For whatever reason his vision seems to be better than the RB's and he has the advantage of being able to throw the ball. This makes them back off of him just enough that he can run the ball.

When will Kubiak realize we have no running game. We have zero running game. Again we have only one method of attack and that is the passing game. We might as well live and die by it because we have nothing else. If, and when, we can convince the other team we will not run, our running game will have some success.

I think the other thing that is acutely obvious - like in the past - we seem to find something that will work against the other team during the 1st series. However, when the other team adjusts we are dead in the water. I can not believe we do not plan for the other team to counter our 1st series. We have no counter attack whatsoever. Its hard for me to comprehend what we are thinking about offensively.

Sorry, but KUBIAK = CAPERS. There are no more excuses to be made. We are having the same kinds of injuries we had in year 2 and we are in a death spiral. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. They refuse to bring Wand back and they refuse to use Winston. We have a mediocre line at best and one that is rapidly falling apart. In the boxing ring they would throw in the towel. I guess we are waiting for Kubiak to throw David to the wolves. I FEEL SORRY FOR OUR PLAYERS. THEY HAVE GIVEN IT THEIR ALL, BUT THEY ARE DESTION TO FAILURE AND IT IS A SHAME.

thunderkyss
10-16-2006, 02:11 AM
I would say we ran 14 times too many. We had to take Dallas out early and we didn't and that was the story of the game. I keep saying we have to pass until the other team thinks we are going to pass and nothing else. They know when we get in short yardage that Kubiak is going to run, run, run the ball. I'm sorry, but we are really sorry at play calling. The only person running the ball should be Carr. For whatever reason his vision seems to be better than the RB's and he has the advantage of being able to throw the ball. This makes them back off of him just enough that he can run the ball.


I think that's basically where we were in the second half, where our O was basically shut out, and the game got out of hand.

When we stopped running the ball, they had us right where they wanted us. it's that simple.

TexanFanInCC
10-16-2006, 02:15 AM
our backs are slow....they dont hit the holes before they close up. the only advantage to having a guy like dayne is that he will almost never get tackled for a loss...which makes him a good extreme short yardage back....kinda like how pittsburgh used bettis in his last nfl season.

Marcus
10-16-2006, 09:37 AM
I would say we ran 14 times too many. We had to take Dallas out early and we didn't and that was the story of the game. I keep saying we have to pass until the other team thinks we are going to pass and nothing else. They know when we get in short yardage that Kubiak is going to run, run, run the ball. I'm sorry, but we are really sorry at play calling. The only person running the ball should be Carr. For whatever reason his vision seems to be better than the RB's and he has the advantage of being able to throw the ball. This makes them back off of him just enough that he can run the ball.

When will Kubiak realize we have no running game. We have zero running game. Again we have only one method of attack and that is the passing game. We might as well live and die by it because we have nothing else. If, and when, we can convince the other team we will not run, our running game will have some success.

I think the other thing that is acutely obvious - like in the past - we seem to find something that will work against the other team during the 1st series. However, when the other team adjusts we are dead in the water. I can not believe we do not plan for the other team to counter our 1st series. We have no counter attack whatsoever. Its hard for me to comprehend what we are thinking about offensively.

Sorry, but KUBIAK = CAPERS. There are no more excuses to be made. We are having the same kinds of injuries we had in year 2 and we are in a death spiral. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is. They refuse to bring Wand back and they refuse to use Winston. We have a mediocre line at best and one that is rapidly falling apart. In the boxing ring they would throw in the towel. I guess we are waiting for Kubiak to throw David to the wolves. I FEEL SORRY FOR OUR PLAYERS. THEY HAVE GIVEN IT THEIR ALL, BUT THEY ARE DESTION TO FAILURE AND IT IS A SHAME.
Mind telling me why you think you should have to say you're sorry so many times in your posts. You're like one of those people that have that "ya know . .ya know . .ya know" syndrome. It's getting kind of ridiculous.

What you should be apologizing for . . (besides that 13-3 prediction:rolleyes: )is not realizing that you need a balanced offense to be successful in this league. Running, but not able to pass, is just as bad as being able to pass, but not able to run it. But even if you can't run it, you have to keep trying to run it anyway, or else you're just going to more and more pressure on the passing game to the point where it won't work either.

Name me one successful team that was able to win with no running game?

When we stopped running the ball, they had us right where they wanted us. it's that simple.

Thank you!

thunderkyss
10-17-2006, 09:21 AM
bump

real
10-17-2006, 09:34 AM
Name me one successful team that was able to win with no running game?

FWIW, The Cardinals only had about thirty more rushing yards against a "better" defense and should have won the game...

I didn't read your whole post so I don't know where you were going with this quote.......but just to add my own two cents....

Matt Leinart already looks better than D.Carr....:twocents:

His line gave him worse protection...His line was terrible last night....
But he gave them a shot to win.....

You can win without a running game....You just need other areas of the team to pick up the slack....

edit: In fact the Winning team had less rushing yards than the losing team...

texan279
10-17-2006, 09:40 AM
bump

bump...our running backs still suck...

chuckm
10-17-2006, 09:47 AM
In fact the Winning team had less rushing yards than the losing team...

the winning team also had 3 defensive tds and the most dominant D in the league .... he have, well something South of the Bears
...

real
10-17-2006, 09:49 AM
the winning team also had 3 defensive tds and the most dominant D in the league .... he have, well something South of the Bears
...

true....but fact still remains....you don't have to have a running game to win....It definitely helps....but you don't need it....

chuckm
10-17-2006, 09:51 AM
true....but fact still remains....you don't have to have a running game to win....It definitely helps....but you don't need it....

the Bears obviously don't ..... so I guess I agree

HOU-TEX
10-17-2006, 10:25 AM
From your recap, the line did ok. Every Oline in the league has a miscue every now and then from a fellow linwmen. The difference between the Texans and those teams is the fact the other teams have a RB that can make quick decisions and react. From what I saw Sunday, it was hit the hole the play was designed for. Even though our line is far from perfect, I'll still pin most of the blame on the RBs.:twocents:

Mr teX
10-17-2006, 10:52 AM
the Bears obviously don't ..... so I guess I agree

Up until last night T. Jones had done well yardage wise in terms of rushing the ball. We just suck at it period, & in a scheme that is very dependent on the run, we can't afford to suck as bad as we do.

thunderkyss
10-17-2006, 12:01 PM
Going back through my recap, I realized I missed a play, at 12:52 in the first Qtr, so that's another one we can blame on Dayne.

Following, I've made a list of the 13 runs that I did recap, and listed the players I thought could've done better, the ones that did great, and whether I thought it was a zoned play, or a man play. for details on exactly what they did, refer back to the original post for each run.

1. 13:47(zone) bad: Owen, Pitts, Putz, Flanagan did great: McKinney

2 13:15(man) bad: Owens, McKinney great: Flanagan, Wiegart, Pitts, Salaam

3. 12:15(zone) bad: McKinney, Cook, Pitts good: Salaam

4. 11:16(zone) bad: Owen Flanagan, Salaam Dayne(no patience) great: McKinney, Wiegart

5. 10:40 (??) bad: Salaam get's cutblocked good: Dayne

6. 10:19 (zone) bad: Owen, Salaam, Dayne(needs to follow FB) ok: McKinney good: Pitts

7. 9:43 (man) bad: Dayne(needs to follow FB)

8. 5:38 (man) bad: Flanagan, McKinney great: McKinney

9. 3:09 (zone) bad: Weary, Cook, Owen

10. 5:19 (man) bad: Flanagan, Weary, Wiegart, Owen ok: Dayne great: Cook

11. 3:21 (zone) bad: Pitts, Salaam Owen

12. 0:34 (man) ok: Dayne Perfect: OL I think this was just a good play by Roy Williams.

13. 5:42 (man) bad: Wiegart, Dayne

on 4 of the 13 run plays I recaped, Dayne could have done better. I understand he's not as fast as some people would like, that's fine, but I don't think extra speed would have helped him get to the "holes" quicker, because while there may have been a hole, there were also people tackling him at or before the LOS. a smaller faster back may have got losses on those plays, & no gains where Dayne got 3 or 4.

If we can get those others people who are also screwing up in our running game, I beleive our running game would be much better, than if we got another running back. After we fix the OL, I don't care who we get to carry the rock.

real
10-17-2006, 12:13 PM
If we can get those others people who are also screwing up in our running game, I beleive our running game would be much better, than if we got another running back. After we fix the OL, I don't care who we get to carry the rock.

I respect your observation...I just don't agree with it....Im not sure what you are classifying as mistakes or could have done better's, but I don't recall Dayne getting hit in the backfield much...I do however remember him running into the backs of his lineman numerous times....

Spencer,Pitts, Mckinney, Flannagan and even sorry old Wiegert could go to another team and contribute if not start...We have serviceable lineman across the board....

Our running backs...if cut today...would have a considerably hard time trying to make another roster...All of them....

The O-line IMO, is clearly more talented as a unit than our RB's as a unit....

texan279
10-17-2006, 12:21 PM
We could sit here and what if till the cows come home TK, but our backs still suck and we have no running game. It really irks me too, now that the passing game is coming together somewhat we have no running game to go with it.

thunderkyss
10-17-2006, 12:59 PM
We could sit here and what if till the cows come home TK, but our backs still suck and we have no running game. It really irks me too, now that the passing game is coming together somewhat we have no running game to go with it.

that's another thing. our passing game ain't all that. I know the numbers show one thing, but we need work in that area as well. If our running game was working, I'm sure it would be better, but our passing game needs improvement all on it's own.

I haven't taken the time to rewatch what we did, and didn't do against dallas passing wise, so far I've only looked at the runs. But on several run plays, I saw Greg Ellis on OwenDaniels, or EricMoulds split wide against the sideline..... we should have exploited that.

I'm not saying that David should call an audible, if the coach tells him he can't. I'm saying why don't our Coach let David call an audible in that situation??

Until David can start calling audibles to take advantage of what is on the field, then we'll never be able to use the passing game to open up the running game. Roy Williams played like a linebaker all game. There was only one safety deep, with Newman & Henry playing press coverage on our WRs. They were daring us to throw the ball.

real
10-17-2006, 01:24 PM
I think it speaks volumes that Leinart was changing the play left and right in his first full game as a starter....

and we are questioning whether or not Carr is "allowed" to....

sad.

texan279
10-17-2006, 03:12 PM
that's another thing. our passing game ain't all that. I know the numbers show one thing, but we need work in that area as well. If our running game was working, I'm sure it would be better, but our passing game needs improvement all on it's own.

I haven't taken the time to rewatch what we did, and didn't do against dallas passing wise, so far I've only looked at the runs. But on several run plays, I saw Greg Ellis on OwenDaniels, or EricMoulds split wide against the sideline..... we should have exploited that.

I'm not saying that David should call an audible, if the coach tells him he can't. I'm saying why don't our Coach let David call an audible in that situation??

Until David can start calling audibles to take advantage of what is on the field, then we'll never be able to use the passing game to open up the running game. Roy Williams played like a linebaker all game. There was only one safety deep, with Newman & Henry playing press coverage on our WRs. They were daring us to throw the ball.

You are honestly going to sit here and talk about our passing game and defend our running game? lmao Our pass game might not be the best, but it is a helluva lot better than our running game, at least our passing game has put up 7 TD's when our backs combined haven't even scored once on the ground. Hell we couldn't even punch it in from what the 2 against Dallas?

edo783
10-17-2006, 03:18 PM
If the running game was operating at the same level as the passing game, we would likely have 2 more wins.

thunderkyss
10-17-2006, 07:22 PM
If the running game was operating at the same level as the passing game, we would likely have 2 more wins.

hey edo, ask him how many touchdowns our offense has put on the scoreboard, outside the 4th Qtr, when the game is already lost.....

for that matter, how many field goals have we made outside the 4th Qtr??

How many times have we crossed 50 when the game was on the line??

edo783
10-17-2006, 09:33 PM
hey edo, ask him how many touchdowns our offense has put on the scoreboard, outside the 4th Qtr, when the game is already lost.....

for that matter, how many field goals have we made outside the 4th Qtr??

How many times have we crossed 50 when the game was on the line??

Not sure what your point is. A running game that is operating at least as well as the passing game would very likely address, at least in part, all of those items.

thunderkyss
10-17-2006, 11:41 PM
You are honestly going to sit here and talk about our passing game and defend our running game? lmao Our pass game might not be the best, but it is a helluva lot better than our running game, at least our passing game has put up 7 TD's when our backs combined haven't even scored once on the ground. Hell we couldn't even punch it in from what the 2 against Dallas?

let's do it this way. I'm going to name all the teams that have passing offenses worse than ours in yards per game.

23. TampaBay
24. Pittsburgh
25. KansasCity
26. Clevland
27. Baltimore
28. Tennessee
29. Buffalo
30. Denver
31. Oakland
32. Atlanta

Does any of these teams have a passing offense that strikes fear in the heart of defensive Coordinators??

Let's look at it this way.
We played Philly, we gained 171 yards passing the football. on 18 of 27 passing. for an average of 5.3 ypc

Defensively, Philly(27th rank defense against the pass) gives up 237 yards/game

We played Indy, gaining 191 yards passing the football, on 22 of 26 passing for 6.4 ypc

Indy (3rd against the pass) normally gives up 158.6 ypg

We played Washington, gaining 200 yards at 6.7 ypg

Washington (24th against the pass) regularly gives up 222.2 ypg

We played Miami(6th against the pass) we gained 211 yards, on 6.2 ypc
Miami gives up 171.7 yards a game.

We played Dallas(21st against the pass) we gained 184 yards at 5.8 ypc
They give 212.2 ypg.

In 5 games, we've only bested two teams' avg. & only by 40 yards. That means we were only as good as the avg team that played Indy, & Washington.
Indy earned their #3 ranking against the Giants, Texans, Jacksonville, Jets, & Tennessee. So our passing offense (practically) is about as good as these teams.

Miami's 6th ranking was earned against.... Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Tennessee, Houston, NewEngland, & Jets. three teams with passing offenses worse than ours.

Don't you think it's funny that David Leads the league in completion pct, and QB rating, but in passing yards he's 22nd?? It's kinda like Reggie Bush leading the league in Receptions, but farther down the list in yards/catch.


here is a list of QBs with less passing yards than David Carr.
Huard(this is the first year he's thrown a pass since he threw 1 in 2003)
Culpepper(cheerleader)
Warner(cheerleader)
McNair(I like this guy)
RoethlisB(0TDs 7INTs)
Plummer(get's booed by his fans)
Vick(not a real QB)
Walter(1st year starter)

We've got two probowl recievers, three pass catching tightends, a pass catching fullback, how can none of these guys be open if they are stopping the run so well?? If they are using 7 men to stop the run, that only leaves 4 in coverage... How can they double Moulds, AJ, & Owen??

look, I know our offense is new. & that it is getting better. but our passing offense is where it's always been, in the bottom half of the ranking. Bottom 10.

you want to tell me our passing game is better than our running game?? fine. But that don't mean it's good. But you go ahead and be happy with your 7 TDs after 5 games.

texan279
10-17-2006, 11:57 PM
let's do it this way. I'm going to name all the teams that have passing offenses worse than ours in yards per game.

23. TampaBay
24. Pittsburgh
25. KansasCity
26. Clevland
27. Baltimore
28. Tennessee
29. Buffalo
30. Denver
31. Oakland
32. Atlanta

Does any of these teams have a passing offense that strikes fear in the heart of defensive Coordinators??

Let's look at it this way.
We played Philly, we gained 171 yards passing the football. on 18 of 27 passing. for an average of 5.3 ypc

Defensively, Philly(27th rank defense against the pass) gives up 237 yards/game

We played Indy, gaining 191 yards passing the football, on 22 of 26 passing for 6.4 ypc

Indy (3rd against the pass) normally gives up 158.6 ypg

We played Washington, gaining 200 yards at 6.7 ypg

Washington (24th against the pass) regularly gives up 222.2 ypg

We played Miami(6th against the pass) we gained 211 yards, on 6.2 ypc
Miami gives up 171.7 yards a game.

We played Dallas(21st against the pass) we gained 184 yards at 5.8 ypc
They give 212.2 ypg.

In 5 games, we've only bested two teams' avg. & only by 40 yards. That means we were only as good as the avg team that played Indy, & Washington.
Indy earned their #3 ranking against the Giants, Texans, Jacksonville, Jets, & Tennessee. So our passing offense (practically) is about as good as these teams.

Miami's 6th ranking was earned against.... Pittsburgh, Buffalo, Tennessee, Houston, NewEngland, & Jets. three teams with passing offenses worse than ours.

Don't you think it's funny that David Leads the league in completion pct, and QB rating, but in passing yards he's 22nd?? It's kinda like Reggie Bush leading the league in Receptions, but farther down the list in yards/catch.


here is a list of QBs with less passing yards than David Carr.
Huard(this is the first year he's thrown a pass since he threw 1 in 2003)
Culpepper(cheerleader)
Warner(cheerleader)
McNair(I like this guy)
RoethlisB(0TDs 7INTs)
Plummer(get's booed by his fans)
Vick(not a real QB)
Walter(1st year starter)

We've got two probowl recievers, three pass catching tightends, a pass catching fullback, how can none of these guys be open if they are stopping the run so well?? If they are using 7 men to stop the run, that only leaves 4 in coverage... How can they double Moulds, AJ, & Owen??

look, I know our offense is new. & that it is getting better. but our passing offense is where it's always been, in the bottom half of the ranking. Bottom 10.

you want to tell me our passing game is better than our running game?? fine. But that don't mean it's good. But you go ahead and be happy with your 7 TDs after 5 games.

Read my earlier post in this thread, I said our passing game might not be great, but it is a helluva lot better than our running game. And I never said I was happy with 7 TD's from the passing game, but I'll take 7 TD's from our passing game over ZERO TD's from our running backs all day long. And as far as our passing game being ranked in the bottom half, you do realize our rushing game is ranked LAST IN THE NFL RIGHT? We can sit here and talk rankings and stats all day long, if you can't see that our running game sucks I don't know what to tell you.

sleepwalker
10-18-2006, 12:02 AM
I appreciate the play by play...Shows dedication...To me anyways.

We all knew we had little chance to get a consistant push against those Dallas front 3 beasts...Their stats show they are no rookies when it comes to stopping the run...A rookie tight end might be part of the problem, I don't know.

Dallas pretty much just man'd up and dominated us...Some players on the line did better than others and Dayne missed opportunities.

The pass blocking was obviously pretty good...I didnt expect that against Dallas.

So I guess now we are good at not giving up sacks, but now we can't run...It's really crazy how all this stuff evolves into us never winning.

thunderkyss
10-18-2006, 01:12 AM
Read my earlier post in this thread, I said our passing game might not be great, but it is a helluva lot better than our running game. And I never said I was happy with 7 TD's from the passing game, but I'll take 7 TD's from our passing game over ZERO TD's from our running backs all day long. And as far as our passing game being ranked in the bottom half, you do realize our rushing game is ranked LAST IN THE NFL RIGHT? We can sit here and talk rankings and stats all day long, if you can't see that our running game sucks I don't know what to tell you.

our yards per game rushing does not match the ypg allowed by the teams we've played. Mainly because we have had to abandon the run earlier than we wanted to. In some games, we had to abandon the run in the first Qtr, because our offense gave the ball to the defense early. Only one fumble by a running back led to a Texans turnover.

You think our passing game is better than our running game because we've produced more yardage passing?? our avg gain per pass is as pathetic as our yards per carry. 6.7 yards per pass, is about the same as 3.2 ypc.

sacks are much more detrimental to a drive than a -3 yard carry.

incomplete passes are kinda sorta the same as runs for no gain...... I'd imagine a 2:1 ratio is probably expected, but I bet we are way over that.... well probably 3:1

and INTs... well, you know what they can do.

we have failed to convert on third down, due to an incomplete pass more often than a failed 3rd down carry.

we do have more 1st downs gained from passing on first & second down as well, but that is to be expected.


Our passing game isn't any better than our running game. It only looks that way..... & I'm assuming Kubiak isn't saying anything, because it is better for the team to just go ahead and blame the running game.

thunderkyss
10-18-2006, 01:17 AM
The pass blocking was obviously pretty good...I didnt expect that against Dallas.


They didn't blitz as often as they usually do. They wanted David to throw the ball.

Jim Nayzium
10-18-2006, 01:31 AM
To say our backs suck after watching the last two games is a somewhat ignorant comment.

The breakdown is fantastically accurate if you look at the game.

The times that Gado has shifted and gained three or four yards have been the only time that the Oline has created much of anything...

Bottom line is you need to get your running backs on the LB level at least two or three times per half...we don't get to the LOS before being grabbed or touched ever!!!

All I know is Gado had over 20 carries in six games for the Pack last season, and rushed for over 100 yards in three games out of six...and had 98 versus the Bears.

FOR any football fan to act like not getting in the endzone on first and goal from inside the five yard line for TWO weeks in a row is anything but poor blocking is a moron...

You could line up owens daniels at tailback and block it well and push forward for a yard or two....

WE ran qb sneak on third and a LONG 2....what the heck was that???

Seriously....teh zone blocking scheme is all about finding your mismatches and getting your rhythm...as soon as kube committs to Gado for an entire first half, we will then be able to declare whether or not he sucks...

All I saw was Gado have NO room, and catch 5 passes....The one, and I mean ONE decent hole that Gado has seen in four weeks he had a 27 yard run that would have been a TD if Moulds hadn't loafed backside stalking the safety...

Dayne doesn't suck either...he just is decent...but if dayne had a decent line he would have much better numbers than he has....

thunderkyss
10-18-2006, 08:14 AM
To say our backs suck after watching the last two games is a somewhat ignorant comment.

The breakdown is fantastically accurate if you look at the game.

Thankyou...

Bottom line is you need to get your running backs on the LB level at least two or three times per half...we don't get to the LOS before being grabbed or touched ever!!!

True........ true..

WE ran qb sneak on third and a LONG 2....what the heck was that???

The camera must add like 4 yards, because it sure as hell looked like more than the 1 yard they said it was.

It's amazing that last year, this group of guys, at least 3 of the 4 could run block, but couldn't pass block. Now this year, they can pass block, but not run block. & the reason they say this, is because David's stats look better, and our running stats look worse. But David's been sacked 15 times in 5 games....... that ain't good.

His better games, are the games he's getting nailed. Give him all day to throw(like this past Sunday) and he has his worst game of the season. Statistically.