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View Full Version : VY coming of age today......................


Bongo59
10-15-2006, 03:12 PM
He played a very good game today against a tough team at home in DC......................cant wait to see him in Houston

afcman
10-15-2006, 03:13 PM
That team is showing SOME heart. The texans need to watch tape of their last two games.

infantrycak
10-15-2006, 03:17 PM
Yeah--it is amazing what 178 yds of rushing will do for a QB--look he may actually top 50% completions for the day.

afcman
10-15-2006, 03:18 PM
I still say though that Cutler and Leinhart will be better in the long run.

TNTitan
10-15-2006, 03:36 PM
I still say though that Cutler and Leinhart will be better in the long run.

and Carr is?

Mysteryhunt
10-15-2006, 03:37 PM
Yeah--it is amazing what 178 yds of rushing will do for a QB--look he may actually top 50% completions for the day.

lol, sooo true

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-15-2006, 03:59 PM
VY looked great. Travis Henry looked like an MVP. Go Titans.

Mr. White
10-15-2006, 04:07 PM
A lot of us around here have been thinking that the Titans games would be sure wins for the Texans this year. I'm not thinking so anymore.

What happened to VY's ankle?

doughboy
10-15-2006, 04:09 PM
What happened to VY's ankle?

Hes good just a stinger.

Dr. Toro
10-15-2006, 04:12 PM
lol, sooo true

In VY's defense they are intentionally keeping him in the pocket. They didn't run one designed run today except for an option which he gave up quick. They're making him learn to manage a game and pass from the pocket before they let him run around and make plays. There were probably ten plays today where he could have taken off and gotten the first down easily today... but doing so only imperils him in a lost season and doesn't aid his development really. Watching the games I get the feeling he's under some pretty strict directives from Fisher and Chow to not scramble or too seriously suppress the instinct to do so.

AustinJB
10-15-2006, 04:56 PM
Yeah--it is amazing what 178 yds of rushing will do for a QB--look he may actually top 50% completions for the day.

Yeah--I wish our QB could do that, ours had only 15 yds and still led our team in rushing...LOL. As for the completions, that obviously doesn't matter too much b/c our QB leads the NFL and we still have the same record as the Titans.:rolleyes:

jshlr4343
10-15-2006, 06:42 PM
Yeah--it is amazing what 178 yds of rushing will do for a QB--look he may actually top 50% completions for the day.

It all goes around. When a QB is feared for what he can do running and passing, it opens up the running game and vice versa. It's interesting because the Titans were supposed to have one of the worst offensive lines and they have been looking pretty good because Vince can move around so well.

David Carr looks pretty good for having no running game to keep the pressure off of him.

TD
10-15-2006, 06:50 PM
I don't understand why people are reluctant to give Vince his props. He spread the ball around; made a couple of huge clutch plays; and most importantly didn't do anything to hurt his team. Oh yeah, and his team won. My bet is the Titans are pretty darn pleased with what he's shown so far.

Wolf
10-15-2006, 07:14 PM
I agree with that,, I just get tired of the Carr hatred threads. Carr(until today) didn't have many INT's, yet people found excuses to hate eventhou Carr led the league in stats.

now after today he won't lead the leage...but the debate contnues

SF49erFaithful
10-15-2006, 10:31 PM
Good job by VY and the rest of the team on the win.

mexican_texan
10-15-2006, 10:51 PM
and Carr is?
..a QB.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 11:18 PM
He played a very good game today against a tough team at home in DC......................cant wait to see him in Houston

I just saw the highlights...

I can't imagine folks still thinking he's going to take two years before he can play like make a difference in this league.

There were some nice on the money small window throws in this game. I hope to see the game on NFL replay.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 11:23 PM
I don't understand why people are reluctant to give Vince his props. He spread the ball around; made a couple of huge clutch plays; and most importantly didn't do anything to hurt his team. Oh yeah, and his team won. My bet is the Titans are pretty darn pleased with what he's shown so far.

What's funny, is that even though he is just one man, the whole team is playing better. Even the defense is playing better, because IMHO, they think they can win with # 10......

I'll have to look at the stats, to see if they really are playing better, but from the outside looking in, watching highlights, and checking the stats sheet, you get the feeling that it is a totally different team from top to bottom.

thunderkyss
10-15-2006, 11:35 PM
I agree with that,, I just get tired of the Carr hatred threads. Carr(until today) didn't have many INT's, yet people found excuses to hate eventhou Carr led the league in stats.

now after today he won't lead the leage...but the debate contnues

It's because some people say that stats mean nothing when you use them against someone, but that it's all that matters when they are in that someone's favor.

People have been putting light on the fact that our offense can't get anything done outside of scripted plays to open the game, and in Garbage time. But noooooo the stats say that our passing game is better than our running game. The stats say that we've got the best passer in the league, and the stats say that David Carr takes care of the ball.

I've got nothing against Carr, & I won't blame this loss on him. Heck, after reviewing the run game, I can't imagine why we weren't prepared to take advantage of plays where we had obvious mismatches. 3rd & 1, we line up with two WRs, and our TE lined up far right with Roy Williams in coverage....

Helloooooo...... run Owen across the middle with Roy Trailing....

Or you got Greg Ellis way out there covering Owen, and you got RoyWilliams on the LOS..... Take that big ole OLB/DE convert to the top, hit him with a little skinny post....

We wasted so many opportunities like that......

and even though Anthony Henry picked off that pass covering AJ, we should have worked on that match-up a little more. the biggest problem on that play, was that David looked at AJ the whole time. It's hard to tell on TV, but I bet Henry never had his back to Carr. the Second problem, was that today, that was about all David threw, the comeback routes..... & I need to rewatch the game again, but I don't remember very many play action passes. The way Roy Williams was playing the run, the middle of the field, should've been wide open.

& I don't think we challenged those Corners deep..... Roy Williams on KevinWalter...... c'mon.. & anthony henry can't run with Aj.

TD
10-15-2006, 11:48 PM
What's funny, is that even though he is just one man, the whole team is playing better. Even the defense is playing better, because IMHO, they think they can win with # 10......

Good stats or bad, all VY does is win. I realize he was surrounded by talent at UT, but so was Applewhite and Simms. I agree that he brings an intangible that affects the whole team.

Part of the problem around here is everyone is so entrenched in their love/hate of Carr or which pick we should have taken that it skews objectivity. The only people who can make Carr a good QB or Mario a good pick are Carr & Mario. How the others do, (good or bad) ought to be irrelevant.

TD
10-16-2006, 12:20 AM
I wouldn't call your manlove for VY objectivity either. All VY does is win, huh? Lets check VY's record as a starter in the NFL. Hmmmm. Looks to me like he is 1-2. My math may be a little rusty, but that doesn't look like a winning record to me. And don't start quoting me David Carr's record, I'm not the one that made the asinine statement that he is a winner.

How's this for math - 30-2 as a starter at UT with a national championship. Maybe we have different definitions of "winner", but that meets mine. Judging his NFL career after three starts is just silly.

Your knee-jerk must have knocked out your monitor before you read the rest of my post or you wouldn't have brought up Carr. What he does is irrelevant when discussing Young (or Bush or Williams). Why is it that people think the only way to make their guy look good is to tear down others? Sad.

run-david-run
10-16-2006, 02:43 AM
What's funny, is that even though he is just one man, the whole team is playing better. Even the defense is playing better, because IMHO, they think they can win with # 10......

I'll have to look at the stats, to see if they really are playing better, but from the outside looking in, watching highlights, and checking the stats sheet, you get the feeling that it is a totally different team from top to bottom.

Im not surprised, they had Kerry freaking Collins out there earlier. Keith Bullock said on naional radio he wanted Collins out and VY in.

HJam72
10-16-2006, 06:59 AM
How's this for math - 30-2 as a starter at UT with a national championship.

College game. Besides, I'm sure Carr's record in college was good as well, just like almost every QB in the NFL--or they wouldn't be in the NFL. You might or might not be right about all this VY/Carr stuff, but it's time to judge based on what is done in the NFL, not college.

edit: Guess you weren't talking about Carr anyway, but you know it's always a comparison. You bring up Bush and you're talking about not drafting Williams. You bring up Young and you're talking about not keeping Carr. Me....I just think our running game sucks.

Tale Gator
10-16-2006, 07:19 AM
And don't start quoting me David Carr's record, I'm not the one that made the asinine statement that he is a winner.

I don't believe he stated Carr's 19-50 record as a starter in the NFL. Why would you even bring up Carr in a VY thread?


:homer:

thunderkyss
10-16-2006, 07:21 AM
Football is the most team of teamsports and average fans who know little about the game give far too much credit to the superstars on each team.

Then you have guys who don't understand that the Washington Redskins is a different team with Clinton Portis, or that the Carolina Panthers can't win without Steve Smith, or that the Baltimore Defense plays better knowing they got a guy who can, and usually does win the close ones.


MVP baby...... that's all I got to say. If you got an MVP on your team, they make everyone else play at a higher level, on both sides of the ball.

real
10-16-2006, 07:57 AM
Then you have guys who don't understand that the Washington Redskins is a different team with Clinton Portis, or that the Carolina Panthers can't win without Steve Smith, or that the Baltimore Defense plays better knowing they got a guy who can, and usually does win the close ones.


MVP baby...... that's all I got to say. If you got an MVP on your team, they make everyone else play at a higher level, on both sides of the ball.

Im with this man.....

real
10-16-2006, 08:08 AM
My point was I don't believe in defining any one player as a winner, since it is a team win or loss. For instance, the entire Buffalo team lost Super Bowl XXV to the New York Giants not just Scott Norwood. I find it sad that you label players winners and diminish the efforts of the rest of the players on the team. You claimed that all VY does is win, as if he is incapable of losing or the insertion of him into the starting lineup of a team will make them incapable of losing. Then I gave you his record as a starter in the NFL to remind you that he is capable of losing. What is even better is in your attempt to defend VY as a winner you revealed that your assertion that all VY does is win was disproven by your mentioning his NCAA record of 30-2. Evidently he was capable of losing in college as well. I mentioned David Carr; because, I don't label players as winners, so I didn't want to hear about his record.

Would you label Joe Montanna a winner ? What about Tom Brady ??? or what about Brett Favre ???

Can you not see the intangible that some players have ?? How one player can change a team ??? Have you ever played on a good football team and your best player gets hurt ???

It's not something that can easily be explained or meausured, but I think it's more than obvious that a single player can have a large impact on a team...Im not really sure how you can deny that....

IMO, you just don't think VY has that quality...that makes more sense, than to act like the quality just doesn't exsist....

real
10-16-2006, 08:10 AM
because most don't watch the game and just want to slam him since we have dc and just want to hate our hometown guy.

VY has been clutch on 3rd down this year and if you watch him you can see something special taking shape...if you just look at a statsheet you won't be that impressed. VY was making plays down the field...or taking shots down the field (that opens up the running game as well). He also has crap wr's. Something special is brewing up there. Congrats for you Titan guys.

I agree with this man...

mexican_texan
10-16-2006, 09:29 AM
because most don't watch the game and just want to slam him since we have dc and just want to hate our hometown guy.

VY has been clutch on 3rd down this year and if you watch him you can see something special taking shape...if you just look at a statsheet you won't be that impressed. VY was making plays down the field...or taking shots down the field (that opens up the running game as well). He also has crap wr's. Something special is brewing up there. Congrats for you Titan guys.
I'd like to add that he plays for a RIVAL. That, and I'm jealous.

Texas_Thrill
10-16-2006, 09:45 AM
A lot of us around here have been thinking that the Titans games would be sure wins for the Texans this year. I'm not thinking so anymore.

What happened to VY's ankle?

Sadly I agree. Are we locking up a top 5 pick next year?

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 09:48 AM
I can also see good stats from Montana, Brady and Favre. Vince Young had a break out game because the running game put up a ton of yardage and the defense played well. Do the Texans have that at all? Nope. So give Vince credit in not turning over the ball and making a TD, but don't give him credit where it is not. He threw for a completion percentage of 52% and ran for 10 yards. Go look at how the running game gave them a ton of yardarge in the second half, there were at least 2 drives alone that the running game solely can be attributed to run and had nothing to do with Vince Young. I like the fact that the Titans did a good thing in bringing him along slowly, build his confidence and toss this "learn by fire" mantra that our previous coaching staff held. One thing that I was concernd with in drafting VY was whether the team that picked him would let him play his game or turn him into a prototypical pocket passser, it seems that Chow is slowly letting him learn the pocket passer routine and sprinkling in a little VYism from time to time.

kbourda
10-16-2006, 01:19 PM
Some of you make me laugh. I will not bother to comment. Congrats to VY and the Titans on the team's first win together.

thunderkyss
10-16-2006, 01:40 PM
because most don't watch the game and just want to slam him since we have dc and just want to hate our hometown guy.

VY has been clutch on 3rd down this year and if you watch him you can see something special taking shape...if you just look at a statsheet you won't be that impressed. VY was making plays down the field...or taking shots down the field (that opens up the running game as well). He also has crap wr's. Something special is brewing up there. Congrats for you Titan guys.

Everybody knows how crappy that team is. All the Vince haters went on and on about how poor that team is, and how poorly Vince was going to do with out the talent that he had at UT.

but you can't tell them nothing.

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 02:30 PM
Everybody knows how crappy that team is. All the Vince haters went on and on about how poor that team is, and how poorly Vince was going to do with out the talent that he had at UT.

but you can't tell them nothing.

So you are giving the win to Vince Young despite the running game and the defensive effort? They pretty much handing him the "win" just because it was his first team victory and disregarded the effort of the rest of the team. The guy threw 1 TD and a 161 yards, had 4 sacks and a fumble in a 25 point effort. Talk about overglorifying the guy.

real
10-16-2006, 02:44 PM
So you are giving the win to Vince Young despite the running game and the defensive effort? They pretty much handing him the "win" just because it was his first team victory and disregarded the effort of the rest of the team. The guy threw 1 TD and a 161 yards, had 4 sacks and a fumble in a 25 point effort. Talk about overglorifying the guy.

I honestly think that if Carr had the same exact game that VY did then you would be talking about how great a game he had...

ledzeppelin229
10-16-2006, 02:51 PM
I honestly think that if Carr had the same exact game that VY did then you would be talking about how great a game he had...

And he would be outnumbered by the people blaming Carr for 'wrongfully taking credit.'

real
10-16-2006, 02:52 PM
The guy threw 1 TD and a 161 yards, had 4 sacks and a fumble in a 25 point effort. Talk about overglorifying the guy.

Do you really judge how well a player played by his stat line ???

I thought we were past that....

thunderkyss
10-16-2006, 02:54 PM
So you are giving the win to Vince Young despite the running game and the defensive effort? They pretty much handing him the "win" just because it was his first team victory and disregarded the effort of the rest of the team. The guy threw 1 TD and a 161 yards, had 4 sacks and a fumble in a 25 point effort. Talk about overglorifying the guy.

I'm not saying that at all. I'm not even saying Vince won that game. But like Vinny, I'm saying he looked good, 52% completion rating or not.

I'm throwing this in there now, because when that team starts to do well, I don't want to hear anybody talking about all this talent they have around him.

Vince is going to make those poor recievers look like starters, may even send one or two to the ProBowl.....

Soon, they'll be talking about what an exceptional offensive line he has, because of the sacks they don't give up.

real
10-16-2006, 02:56 PM
And he would be outnumbered by the people blaming Carr for 'wrongfully taking credit.'

I don't think anyone is saying VY won the game by himself....

I am not sure how you could have watched the game...and not atleast admit that he is doing better than you(VY doubters) thought he would....

Double Barrel
10-16-2006, 03:08 PM
Something special is brewing up there. Congrats for you Titan guys.

yep, that's for sure. I do/do not look forward to facing him twice a year for the next decade+. I thought we'd have a little reprieve from the Titans once Steve McNair retired, but I guess not. Vince is going to haunt us for years to come. Dude is a natural leader and never quits, and that compensates for any deficiencies he might have in his game.

santo
10-16-2006, 03:20 PM
yep, that's for sure. I do/do not look forward to facing him twice a year for the next decade+. I thought we'd have a little reprieve from the Titans once Steve McNair retired, but I guess not. Vince is going to haunt us for years to come. Dude is a natural leader and never quits, and that compensates for any deficiencies he might have in his game.


I agree. What will make Vince Young a really good player now if not great later on will be his attitude to the game. The man just loves to play football and will do anything it takes to win.

And I also believe that attitude will carry over to his teammates.

kastofsna
10-16-2006, 04:02 PM
he looked good. getting too much credit for the W, and so is gradkowski for that matter.

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 05:07 PM
I watched this game and didn't just look at a stat line...he was impressive and made some good throws...his wr's are garbage btw. You go though. Your argument sounds good.
I didn't see the game, and yes he made some plays and scored a TD, but you're kidding yourself if you think that the running game didn't win the game. You'll act like he led a game winning charge late in the game and threw a last second TD to win it. LOL. In fact if it was David Carr at the helm and David Carr got sacked on their last drive like VY did, you all would have hammered him. And if it was the Texans defense at the end of the game Carr would have lost anyways, instead the defense for the Titans saved Vince Young because Young did nothing on the last drive.

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 05:09 PM
he looked good. getting too much credit for the W, and so is gradkowski for that matter.

That is an excellent analogy and I agree with that. I never said he sucked, but got an overhyped win in my book.

Kaiser Toro
10-16-2006, 05:20 PM
he looked good. getting too much credit for the W, and so is gradkowski for that matter.

The limited snaps I have seen from Gradowski and Young show me players that play with confidence and a team that reponds to that confidence. I have never felt that with this team and it really sucks.

disaacks3
10-16-2006, 05:33 PM
The thread title pretty much sums up the WHY many think VY is getting too much credit. "Coming of Age"?? By that logic DC came of age when we could hang our hats on "19-10".

Did VY have an adequate game for a rookie? Yep, he threw what I thought was an excellent TD pass (rifled it in there). He also had a previous series at 1st&Goal where he DIDN'T look so hot. Bottom Line...he's still a rookie and still needs time to learn the NFL game, but he's definitely progressing.

Anybody that thinks VY "Won" that game for the Titans needs to take a critical thinking class.

Congrats to VY on his first win in the NFL, but let's not reserve a spot for his bust in Canton just yet...

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 05:34 PM
I honestly think that if Carr had the same exact game that VY did then you would be talking about how great a game he had...
Please, don't try to turn me into this great Carr lover, VY hater. When he messes up, it is what it is, he messes up and say that. If he does good then I say so, no matter who the QB is. When our RB's get over 178 yards and our QB throws only 1 td with only 161 yards, I seriously doubt you VY homers would ever give Carr that kind of love you are giving Young.

real
10-16-2006, 05:37 PM
Please, don't try to turn me into this great Carr lover, VY hater. When he messes up, it is what it is, he messes up and say that. If he does good then I say so, no matter who the QB is. When our RB's get over 178 yards and our QB throws only 1 td with only 161 yards, I seriously doubt you VY homers would ever give Carr that kind of love you are giving Young.


VY didn't have a good day statistically....that's pretty much your argument....

real
10-16-2006, 05:38 PM
There's more to football than the Monday morning stats line....

Lucky
10-16-2006, 05:54 PM
The limited snaps I have seen from Gradowski and Young show me players that play with confidence and a team that reponds to that confidence. I have never felt that with this team and it really sucks.
I guess Andre Johnson wouldn't drop passes from Vince? Ron Dayne would take a Young handoff and get to the line before next Thursday? If there are Texans who don't "respond", then they should be cut.

Give VY credit, he was a part of his team's victory in a very tough place to play. There is nothing wrong with his stats, and they would have been better if Young hadn't hurt his ankle late. I was impressed...but "coming of age"? That's very premature. Where did we think David would be after his performance in the Texans initial victory? Vince has a long way to go and no one knows for sure if he can get there.

Bongo59
10-16-2006, 06:01 PM
just to let you guys in on something.................VY character has had a huge influence on the lockerrrom since he has come in.........this was a team on the verge of total implosion after the haynesworth incident................VY and Bulluck got the team together and they have led..........we played the colts to a 14-13 game in indy..............and we won in Washigton..........we were double digit dogs in both games...............looking at VY numbers dont tell the whole story................he is making crucial plays at very difficult times.....he made a 23 yd throw to Wade on a 4th and two and it was his second read after the first read was taken away..............pretty heady stuff for a rookie making his third start.................remember this is a team who just beat the jags in Washington in Ot several weeks ago..................our team D is terrible but what he has done to date given the fact that he left UT early and has been thrown to the wolves is quite impressive................We have the worst D stopping the run in the league and our pass D is not much better..................VY sustained drives and avoided mistakes.............every week you can see he is getting better.........................he is clearly way ahead of where anyone thought he'd be and his presence has solidified our OL....which is now playing extremely well because of him and THenry is taking full advantage of it as well..........................the OL is trying like mad to give VY every opp to succeed and it is paying off huge dividends...................VY is a very special cat.......................and i think you will all see it when you see him live.......he jut does not get flustered and has incredible poise under duress.............that to me is one part o f his game I never saw in college.................He is throwing first and hardly running at all...............but when he gets the edge he still can kill you.......he ran away from Freeney twice in indy and scored a TD without being touched..................you guys have played the Skins and colts already so you know what both teams can do.......what VY has done for us in the last three games has been remarkable.......................

Wolf
10-16-2006, 06:05 PM
well yes we played the skins and colts.. our defense also gave up

31 points to washington and 43 to the colts.

Bongo59
10-16-2006, 06:13 PM
well yes we played the skins and colts.. our defense also gave up

31 points to washington and 43 to the colts.
and my point is if collins was still in we would have done the same.............we could not have sustained any drives without VY........people cant stack the box with VY because his edge speed must be accounted for....this makes controling the clock easier and opens the cutback lane to henry..............this is precisely what happened in Indy and Wash.........................infact if VY played the Jets and Miami i am convinced we would have won both games..........infact the Jet fans said they were quite glad when VY came out..............he was in for a series and did well............he also made a two point conversion on them rather easily.....................look at the washington Post today adn see what Gibbs had to say about VY....................This guy is alot better passer than anyone knew...............and he is throwing first and not looking to run.........................he is like Mike Vick in his running ability but with a passing touch and acumen that is still eluding Vick after 5 yrs.................................I was not a VY fan prior to the draft.............and remained skeptical in OTA's.................but much like Larry Bird he elevates everyone around him to play better team game and that leads to superior results..................that is what superstars do...................and he left college early and and is playing on a bad team.........................VY is going be special

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 06:17 PM
VY didn't have a good day statistically....that's pretty much your argument....

That is one aspect of my argument, yes, but you missed the other part that Vince Young only had a so called "break out game" because the running game put up a ton of yardage and the defense played well. My point was the overglorification of his win attributed to him alone with disregard to the running game and defensive effort. Take away that running game and insert ours, what do you think you get?

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 06:25 PM
Its obvious you didn't watch him play because he carried that team on a few critical sitations....you still got clutch play...that's what you got.

Clutch? He didn't even complete a pass in the 4th quarter! He made some good plays, but please, the running game kept this team going along with the defense in the end.

thunderkyss
10-16-2006, 06:27 PM
That is one aspect of my argument, yes, but you missed the other part that Vince Young only had a so called "break out game" because the running game put up a ton of yardage and the defense played well. My point was the overglorification of his win attributed to him alone with disregard to the running game and defensive effort. Take away that running game and insert ours, what do you think you get?

The point is the 4 year project looks like he's about 3 & a half years ahead of schedule.

SESupergenius
10-16-2006, 06:37 PM
I guess the Ben Troupe drop and the win hurt your eyes...oh wait, you didn't see the game.

I read the play by plays on nfl.com and he did have a couple of good long passes.....but then he also had some bad short gains....especially at the end on crucial 3rd down (yes I did see this on TV) where the Titans needed a first down to stop them from getting the ball back. I can read however that the running game sustained the drives and the defense caused a turnover to stop them. I guess those things went under your bifocals.

Wolf
10-16-2006, 06:37 PM
"coming of age"? impressive forecasting.

Bongo59
10-16-2006, 06:51 PM
Clutch? He didn't even complete a pass in the 4th quarter! He made some good plays, but please, the running game kept this team going along with the defense in the end.the 4th and two play he threw a 23 yd dart to the 4 yd line....next play he throws a TD to Brandon Jones....................he made several bigtime plays all on his own.........what you dont understand that with VY on the field STaylor could not play in the box.......they were afraid of VY ability outside...with Collins that is not even a consideration.....so teams are playing us with 7 in th ebox and it has created huge running lanes for Henry and White.........................that is all VY doing and no one else.

bigcarlos
10-16-2006, 07:49 PM
Only the haters called him a four year project...teams don't spend high picks on four year projects (well....the Carr thing wasn't planned).

True

Tulip
10-16-2006, 08:41 PM
What I've seen is that this Titans team was a complete mess. A mess in the offseason, a team that was projected by many to be the worst team in the AFC South this year, and a team that was a mess early in the season. In Vince's second start, the defense started clicking. The running game started clicking. The Titans lost to the Colts by one point - and they dominated most of that game. They're suddenly playing with a purpose. If the Titans had some decent receivers, their offense would be hellascary.

I have a hard time believing that it's all just happenstance that everyone is playing better now all at once. This is a guy who can change a locker room. He did it at UT. They had "play to not lose" culture for years under Mack Brown, and it was stifling. Mack Brown admits that he learned to change his mindset to focus on winning (and enjoying winning) during the 2004 season. The Longhorns won 19 straight after that with Vince Young leading the offense. To think that he can't have that kind of influence on grown, professional men in the NFL - that's underestimating him.

I would love it if my team were in the position that the Titans are in right now. Titans players and fans have hope. And it's not blind hope - it's hope with foundation. The team is coming together. And they have an absolutely fearless leader.

I think we don't even remember the value of good player leadership because we haven't really had it since the Texans early days on defense. We've never had any on offense. I think it's tremendously important to the success of a team.

Kaiser Toro
10-16-2006, 08:53 PM
I back our local schoolboy talent.

Homer says what? :)

Kaiser Toro
10-16-2006, 09:01 PM
I said I back talent...not just anyone from the hood. I never got on the Andre Ware wagon...nor did I ride the Klingler haystack.....Vince Young has much more talent than both of those guys combined. Homers are just guys that blindly pimp stuff....I'm no homer...I don't think.

Threw you a knuckler there V, that last one was an ambiguous cocktail and the only thing that was less germane to it would be anything to do with the topic itself.

axman40
10-16-2006, 09:04 PM
hellascary



My new favorite word hellascary!
Man that pass rush is hellascary!
Props to Tulip!
:thankyou:

Tulip
10-16-2006, 09:09 PM
My new favorite word hellascary!
Man that pass rush is hellascary!
Props to Tulip!
:thankyou:

lol - gotta love Cartman.

I'm just glad someone got to the end of the first paragraph of one of my posts. I tend to ramble on....and on...and on.

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-16-2006, 11:54 PM
I don't understand why people are reluctant to give Vince his props. He spread the ball around; made a couple of huge clutch plays; and most importantly didn't do anything to hurt his team. Oh yeah, and his team won. My bet is the Titans are pretty darn pleased with what he's shown so far.

Titans Nation for the most part is very pleased with Vince. We are really excited about the future. He matures 2 fold every week.

real
10-17-2006, 08:27 AM
That is one aspect of my argument, yes, but you missed the other part that Vince Young only had a so called "break out game" because the running game put up a ton of yardage and the defense played well. My point was the overglorification of his win attributed to him alone with disregard to the running game and defensive effort. Take away that running game and insert ours, what do you think you get?

If you didn't watch the game,IMO, you can't really judge how well a player played...I don't really understand how that works....Yeah you can make an inference from the stats....But there's more to football than putting up numbers....

VY and Leinart IMO, both have something special....All those teams did was replace their QB....thats it.....Now they are going down to the wire, and beating teams that were supposed to be "superbowl contenders"....The same teams, and a team that would(the bears)that blew us out of the water....Almost every one on the board was predicting a sweep of the Titans....Are ya still thinkin sweep???

SESupergenius
10-17-2006, 09:22 AM
Listen Sonnyboy, don't make me hit you with my cane.
I Think I am as old as you are so if you hit me with a cane then wheelchair will block it.

Anyways, I was going to post how Lienart had a coming of age game today....but somehow the Cards lost, so I really can't say that. Lienart looks better than Young at the moment, although he probably has better weapons. He does have the deep ball, which surprised me.

kastofsna
10-17-2006, 10:02 AM
it was leinart's coming of age game because everyone saw it and know that the loss certainly wasn't his fault. i thought young started coming of age last week despite the loss. hopefully leinart can show the raiders this week why they MAYYYYYBE should've drafted him.

thunderkyss
10-17-2006, 01:05 PM
Anyways, I was going to post how Lienart had a coming of age game today....but somehow the Cards lost, so I really can't say that. Lienart looks better than Young at the moment, although he probably has better weapons. He does have the deep ball, which surprised me.

Why's it gotta be like that??

what difference does it make if Lienart looked better than Young, or if Young looked better than Lienart, or if they both looked better than Carr..... ( I didn't say that out loud did I??)

They both look good. Everybody expected Lienart to look like he did. No one expected Young to look like he did.

& that's what this is all about.

RonJaworski, SeanSalsbury, Merril Hodge, time to eat some crow.

I gaurantee you everytime MattLienart throws a 5 yard dump off to a running back in the flat, that get's turned into a 78 yard touchdown, you'll hear how great Matt is, his decision making, his poise, his leadership.

But if Vince throws a 55 yard bomb that drops into his recievers hands, but is tipped to the FreeSafety, you'll hear how Vince shouldn't have thrown that ball, and it's going to take him 4 years to learn what can't be done in the NFL.

Lienart looked great. Vince looked great. lets leave it at that.

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-17-2006, 01:08 PM
Why's it gotta be like that??

what difference does it make if Lienart looked better than Young, or if Young looked better than Lienart, or if they both looked better than Carr..... ( I didn't say that out loud did I??)

They both look good. Everybody expected Lienart to look like he did. No one expected Young to look like he did.

& that's what this is all about.

RonJaworski, SeanSalsbury, Merril Hodge, time to eat some crow.

I gaurantee you everytime MattLienart throws a 5 yard dump off to a running back in the flat, that get's turned into a 78 yard touchdown, you'll hear how great Matt is, his decision making, his poise, his leadership.

But if Vince throws a 55 yard bomb that drops into his recievers hands, but is tipped to the FreeSafety, you'll hear how Vince shouldn't have thrown that ball, and it's going to take him 4 years to learn what can't be done in the NFL.

Lienart looked great. Vince looked great. lets leave it at that.

great post

mexican_texan
10-17-2006, 01:24 PM
I really like Leinart's footwork. It is Manningesque. As you saw from Rex Grossman yesterday, arm strength is wasted with bad mechanics.

SESupergenius
10-17-2006, 01:36 PM
Lienart looked great. Vince looked great. lets leave it at that.
Nah, Lienart looked great, Vince looked ok.

infantrycak
10-17-2006, 01:59 PM
Is this where I remind you that you didn't see Young play?

Well I watched part of it and they are going to have the game on NFL Replay this week to see the remainder. I'd say great was an overstatement--solid and ahead of where naysayers projecting 3-4 years for him expected him to be. IMO he is more inconsistant in his accuracy than most QB's. That isn't new and is something he has always overcome before with other attributes. I like his attitude in taking shots down field, but his judgment is still developing--that was a poor decision to throw that almost INT on the goal line for instance--Sean Taylor was waiting to gobble that thing. OTOH that was a beautiful pass he stuck in the middle of 4 defenders--over two and under two. I definitely like his demeanor in the pocket.

doughboy
10-17-2006, 04:10 PM
stats will never tell you how good a career vince has(like McNair) and I see it like this, Vince won and came from behind to win and Matt (not all his fault)blew a huge win.....which QB would you rather have?

real
10-17-2006, 04:11 PM
stats will never tell you how good a career vince has(like McNair) and I see it like this, Vince won and came from behind to win and Matt (not all his fault)blew a huge win.....which QB would you rather have?

Leinart

real
10-17-2006, 04:12 PM
If you think Matt had anything to do with that loss....

Pass me whatever you are smoking or drinking...

doughboy
10-17-2006, 04:16 PM
All Im saying is that he didnt play well win it mattered most.

real
10-17-2006, 04:20 PM
All Im saying is that he didnt play well win it mattered most.

Uhhhhh.....yes he did....

He drove down the field and put his team in position to win the game with a field goal...

I like VY...and IMO, him and Matt will be great...in different ways...but both will be great....

kastofsna
10-17-2006, 04:21 PM
All Im saying is that he didnt play well win it mattered most.
2 weeks in a row now he drove his team down to setup a game-tying or game-winning field goal. in his first two games as a starter.

i'd say he played damn well when it mattered most.

SESupergenius
10-17-2006, 04:28 PM
Is this where I remind you that you didn't see Young play?

(postponed comment until Wed.)

infantrycak
10-17-2006, 05:14 PM
All Im saying is that he didnt play well win it mattered most.

You do realize that once the game was on the line VY had 1 incomplete and 1 3yd pass on 3rd and 6 on the next to last possession and then the go ahead possession was 5 straight runs? That isn't to take anything away from VY but if you are trying to compare that crunch time to Leinart's last drive as "playing well" it looks pretty silly.

doughboy
10-17-2006, 05:17 PM
sorry guys its just the titans fan in me I just want vince to be better and maybe matt is.

infantrycak
10-17-2006, 09:30 PM
If Vince hit his reciever in the hands with a 55 yard bomb, it would be the first time he has done it in the NFL. I've seen him throw a few deep balls so far, but none of them were close to hitting anyone in the hands.

He had a WR drop a sure TD in one game this year that was over 30 yds.

Bongo59
10-17-2006, 09:53 PM
VY is going to be awfully awfully good soon.................and you'll get to see how bad he is soon with your own eyes...................and I know for sure we'll be favored in Reliant

T_Guru
10-17-2006, 10:40 PM
VY is going to be awfully awfully soon.................and you'll get to see how bad he is soon with your own eyes...................and I know for sure we'll be favored in Reliant

Bongo, good to see you over here.

I think--and I don't think it is much of a stretch--that Vince will have his best game statistically against the Texans. I think that coming off the bye week and with everyone rallying around him that he will put up 250+yds and 2+ touchdowns.

Of course this is guessing and nothing more. I just think Fisher wants VY to have a statement game.

infantrycak
10-17-2006, 10:43 PM
It wasn't a 55 yard bomb, though, was it?

I wouldn't swear to 55 yds but I think it was 40-45+. It was very nicely thrown and catchable.

thunderkyss
10-17-2006, 10:54 PM
If Vince hit his reciever in the hands with a 55 yard bomb, it would be the first time he has done it in the NFL. I've seen him throw a few deep balls so far, but none of them were close to hitting anyone in the hands.

whatever.......

I guess Lienart throws 55 yard bombs rather regularly in the NFL.

infantrycak
10-17-2006, 11:19 PM
whatever.......

I guess Lienart throws 55 yard bombs rather regularly in the NFL.

He is getting it down the field more consistantly (on a very limited sample size) BUT he has much better WR's as well.

thunderkyss
10-17-2006, 11:30 PM
He is getting it down the field more consistantly (on a very limited sample size) BUT he has much better WR's as well.

Sorry 'cak, I guess I should've been more wordy. theGenius said if Vince does it, it would be the first time He's done it in the NFL..... well duh, he's only started 2 games in the NFL.

Then he brings up Lienart, as if Matt has done it regularly in the NFL.

I don't care to compare the two.

Matt is doing great, I've been impressed with his playing.

Vince is doing great, I've been impressed with his playing.

IMHO, we're looking at the next Brady & the next McNabb........ I don't know how anyone can say that one is truly better than the other. They are both phnominal....... just different kinds.

Who's better, the Stones, or AC/DC?? depends on what you like. They've both been rocking since before I was born, and their legacy will be here long after my grandchildren are gone.

Wolf
10-18-2006, 05:20 AM
of course the stones have been playing music since the stone ages and there are more people in the world than there wore in the '80's ;)

edo783
10-18-2006, 09:51 AM
of course the stones have been playing music since the stone ages

Isn't that why they are called the stones?

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 10:43 AM
You know i was very critical of Vince as a QB, still am really but in watching him I think he will be a serviceable QB in the league much like Cunningham was in his prime.

I thought that leinart would be better going into the draft & i still think he will right now, Monday night's game only confirms my belief.

The whole thing about Vince with me is that I'm just not buying that he is a good enough passing QB. The NFL is a long way from UT & College ball. He's no longer a "man among boys" , he's just a man & those late quarter heroics & 30-50 yd. scampers aren't going to be there in the NFL. Elite teams will force him to beat them with his arm & i just don't think he can do that. His running ability is what separated him from most in college & MOST times is what won them games.

Now before some of you guys' heads pop off, he could prove me wrong but those comparing him to Steve Mcnair & Donovan mcNabb, are overlooking 1 key thing. both of those guys were more accomplished passers coming out of college than Vince was.

real
10-18-2006, 10:47 AM
Now before some of you guys' heads pop off, he could prove me wrong but those comparing him to Steve Mcnair & Donovan mcNabb, are overlooking 1 key thing. both of those guys were more accomplished passers coming out of college than Vince was.

I don't think so...

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 11:17 AM
I don't think so...

"Air" Mcnair...................... holds pretty much all of Alcorn State's passing records, now & when he came out.

Same goes for McNabb except I'm not sure if he holds ALL of their passing records, I think it is just the big ones.

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 11:22 AM
Cunningham was the NFL MVP in 1990....not bad for a serviceable qb.

http://www.football.com/nfl/records/NFLRegMVP.shtml

As was McNair, but he couldn't sustain that excellence for very long like the Great Ones do. And since many are proclaiming him as the guy who has next........... you gather your own conclusions from that.

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 11:25 AM
LOL alcorn state....look at their program and their schedule. I don't mean to laugh...well, perhaps I do.

Yeah go ahead & laugh at alcorn state & the SWAC, but also laugh at Micheal Strahan, Walter Payton & Jerry Rice while your at it. What school you come from doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is can you play. Heck, there are guys who were bagging groceries 1 year & the next year were Superbowl MVPs.

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 11:39 AM
How old are you anyway? McNair has been in the league for over a decade and has been a difference maker most of his career. You didn't seem to remember that Cunningham was the league MVP and tore up the league for a while.....most careers are short in the NFL, so I don't buy your argument. McNair has been an excellent QB for quite a while...and he led his team to the super bowl...not a bad thing. Look around the league and you don't find but a handful of guys who have done it.

You're proving my point. Mcnair did well b/c he was already a very accomplished passer coming out. I don't know about excellent for a while, but you get my point. & is comparing Vince to Cunningham in his prime such a bad thing? I'm well aware of what Randall did in the league, growing up (I'm 27 by the way) the Little that i did see of Randall, I agree he tore it up, he was one of my first Football heroes. But league MVP is nothing getting a ring is all that matters & neither of those guys have one. Furthermore, Trent Dilfer WON a superbowl does that make him a good QB?.............Probably not.

kastofsna
10-18-2006, 11:48 AM
But league MVP is nothing
right.

real
10-18-2006, 11:52 AM
But league MVP is nothing ...

:ok:

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 12:09 PM
No...McNair didn't play well till he was a 4 year vet and then he didn't light up the passing game. He produced in the clutch when it counted though.....something you can't see just looking at stat lines.

You dismissed Cunningham as an average qb....I debunked that...you can't change your story now.

Everyone points to Dilfer but the first thing the Ravens did was S-can his sorry ass asap....he didn't win anything and everyone knows it. They won that SB despite him...not because of him. Everything in life has an exception, but it is folly to try to emulate an aberration.

Yeah, but you use his superbowl appearance & his MVP season as a reason why he was a "difference maker" all those came after his 4th year right? McNair didn't really start until 97. The next year he threw for more yardage/TD's but they didn't do anything. In 2000, the superbowl year, he was statistically worse but they got to the Superbowl, care to take a guess why? That Defense that they lived off of for the next 2-3 years was in place that's why. So b4 you dismiss Trent as a "sorry ass" You have to take into account the same thing with Mcnair as well. Bottom line is if the guy retired today is he in the HOF? I don't think so.


And who's changing their story on Cunningham? He was serviceable in his prime, but does he have any rings that he led them too? Nope Did he even lead then to a Superbowl? Nope. So that just makes him serviceable IMO.

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 12:16 PM
right.

I'll tell you what, Ask Peyton Manning, Steve McNair, & any other HOF'er with no rings if they'd trade those in for a Superbowl & then get back at me.:thumbup

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 12:34 PM
32 teams and only 9 current starters have played in a Super Bowl....Donovan McNabb, Marc Bulger, Jake Delhomme, Tom Brady, Kurt Warner, Brett Favre, Drew Bledsoe, Steve McNair & Ben Roethlisberger. Not all of these guys have pretty stat lines...but most of them were difference makers and productive on 3rd down and in the clutch.


When did he play in a Superbowl? Also, I think only like 3 of those guys were League MVP when they went to Superbowls which again, shows you how much that is worth.

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 12:44 PM
make that 7 then. Warner isn't a current starter and he was on my list too. So if your only measure of a great QB is SB's you have a short list.

My measure of great QB's is the ENTIRE body of work from health to rings not just stats, not just Superbowl appearances & not just League MVP's.

real
10-18-2006, 01:20 PM
When did he play in a Superbowl? Also, I think only like 3 of those guys were League MVP when they went to Superbowls which again, shows you how much that is worth.

Your argument has no basis....What do you mean "worth"????

I thought this argument started about how good/or bad a player was....

An MVP honor has "worth" in the context of this argument....It has worth because that is a symbol of a players dominance and superior performane over a period of time....

The context in which you are using the word doesn't fit the argument...

If we are using it as a meausure of a players "worth", then an MVP trophy is worth a lot, and I'm not really sure how you can deny that....

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 02:21 PM
Is is really that hard for you guys to understand? You guys used MVP as a basis for being a "great" QB, In Vinny's case Superbowl appearances. I in so many words, said that it isn't TO ME worth as much mainly b/c there are so many other things that TO ME are worth more. A Superbowl WIN is one but not the end all. And I only used Dilfer b/c you were rambling about QB's and Superbowl appearances. Dilfer is no more of great QB than you & I, but he has that ring to validate his career. This is what these guys play for. Again, ask any MVP or HOFer without one if he would trade in HIS accomplishments for a TEAM superbowl ring & i guarantee you all of them would do it.

[QUOTE=xtruroyaltyx;472840]Your argument has no basis....What do you mean "worth"????

As for this, What i meant by worth is the fact that just b/c a guy wins an MVP doesn't mean that the guy is/will be "great" & is capable of leading his team to the promise land. How many guys have won MVP's & went on to do squat in the NFL?. To me there are only a handful of "great" QB's to begin with. being "great" to me is reserved for nearing the end of your career how much did you dominate during your tenure? How consistent were you through out? McNair wasn't dominating as much as you guys say or else he would have won it outright. BY dominating i mean teams fearing you pretty much your whole career (Unitas, Montana, Marino, Elway) he was just a serviceable player on some good team who had a couple of exceptional years.

kastofsna
10-18-2006, 02:22 PM
I'll tell you what, Ask Peyton Manning, Steve McNair, & any other HOF'er with no rings if they'd trade those in for a Superbowl & then get back at me.:thumbup
or, ask any eagles fan if they were upset with randall cunningham for only being an MVP. or ask any titans fan if they would settle for an MVP quarterback.

real
10-18-2006, 02:25 PM
he(Steve McNair) was just a serviceable player on some good team who had a couple of exceptional years.

:tease:

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 02:29 PM
or, ask any eagles fan if they were upset with randall cunningham for only being an MVP. or ask any titans fan if they would settle for an MVP quarterback.

Hell I'd take one in a heartbeat, but does that mean i think that they are "great", no. Only extreme homers would believe that. Being great to me is something that after your career is over it is unanimous with your peers i.e. HOF. I guess it's just our varying opinions with the definition of serviceable vs. great.

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 02:32 PM
Um, no I didn't...but thanks for playing. I was pointing out that there weren't too many SB QB's running around the NFL today. You were the one who threw Dilfer into the conversation.

reading is fundamental. I said that I brought up Dilfer b/c......

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 02:34 PM
Servicable = David Carr and Jon Kitna. McNair and Cunningham were far more than servicable.

I'm done with this, but like i said earlier, it's probably just our definitions aren't the same.

real
10-18-2006, 02:38 PM
I guess it's just our varying opinions with the definition of serviceable vs. great.

What QB's do you consider serviceable?? Great??

mefool3030
10-18-2006, 02:43 PM
stats will never tell you how good a career vince has(like McNair) and I see it like this, Vince won and came from behind to win and Matt (not all his fault)blew a huge win.....which QB would you rather have?

vince

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 02:52 PM
What QB's do you consider serviceable?? Great??

Great: Starr, Graham, Unitas, Montana, Elway, Staubach, Favre, Moon & Though i don't like him Bradshaw. That's just a few off the top of my head.

Coming Soon if they keep doing what they are doing: Manning, Brady, & possibly McNabb.

Serviceable: System guys, like Bulger, green, guys where the offensive side of the ball is not the dominant side, McNair, B. Johnson, Stabler, Jaworksi, & most guys that wouldn't survive any other offensive scheme.

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-18-2006, 05:30 PM
So this argument is getting a little off base so here's my two cents:

Vince Young is a badass.

Bongo59
10-18-2006, 05:31 PM
You're proving my point. Mcnair did well b/c he was already a very accomplished passer coming out. I don't know about excellent for a while, but you get my point. & is comparing Vince to Cunningham in his prime such a bad thing? I'm well aware of what Randall did in the league, growing up (I'm 27 by the way) the Little that i did see of Randall, I agree he tore it up, he was one of my first Football heroes. But league MVP is nothing getting a ring is all that matters & neither of those guys have one. Furthermore, Trent Dilfer WON a superbowl does that make him a good QB?.............Probably not.I think your perception is flawed by relativity...............Mac was an elite talent who played against inferior talent in college..............that is what allowed him to run or pass at will......I think when you look back at his first four yrs in the league he was very far behind VY in throwing even now after three games...............and the colleges and athletes they faced has much to do with it................I would strongly recommend you watch the Titans game on the NFL reply this week and you will be surprised as many of the scouts and talking heads are about just how far along he already is.....................trust me I know I was a big doubter of VY for the last 2 yrs..............over at titanscentral during the draft and before the draft I was very open about not wanting him at all...............after seeing him for 16 days in OTA's he had me sold......and he has put in so much work in film study and has the ability to elevate lesser players around him to be better............VY is going to be the NFL's Mike Jordan in about 4 yrs.................will he have ups and downs this yr....you betcha................but he will absolutely do things to win a game that will drop a jaw too....................the thing that has made an impression on me early is how poised he is and how much better he is when the situation is more pressured.....................rookie QBs never have that..............it is natural to VY. Contrary to what many of you think VY has run very little to date.................many think he has because of his 19 yd TD run against Indy......but that was because it was all over sportscenter................he is a throw first guy and he is a leader cut from the same cloth as Magic Bird and Jordan and Marino and Elway..............he has IT. And I do feel foolish now for not seeing that last yr.

Bongo59
10-18-2006, 05:54 PM
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2006-10-16-vince-young_x.htm

Mr teX
10-18-2006, 06:14 PM
I think your perception is flawed by relativity...............Mac was an elite talent who played against inferior talent in college..............that is what allowed him to run or pass at will......I think when you look back at his first four yrs in the league he was very far behind VY in throwing even now after three games...............and the colleges and athletes they faced has much to do with it................I would strongly recommend you watch the Titans game on the NFL reply this week and you will be surprised as many of the scouts and talking heads are about just how far along he already is.....................trust me I know I was a big doubter of VY for the last 2 yrs..............over at titanscentral during the draft and before the draft I was very open about not wanting him at all...............after seeing him for 16 days in OTA's he had me sold......and he has put in so much work in film study and has the ability to elevate lesser players around him to be better............VY is going to be the NFL's Mike Jordan in about 4 yrs.................will he have ups and downs this yr....you betcha................but he will absolutely do things to win a game that will drop a jaw too....................the thing that has made an impression on me early is how poised he is and how much better he is when the situation is more pressured.....................rookie QBs never have that..............it is natural to VY. Contrary to what many of you think VY has run very little to date.................many think he has because of his 19 yd TD run against Indy......but that was because it was all over sportscenter................he is a throw first guy and he is a leader cut from the same cloth as Magic Bird and Jordan and Marino and Elway..............he has IT. And I do feel foolish now for not seeing that last yr.


This is precisely why i said in my very 1st post that i have kind of changed my tune on him. The little things that you are stating, i noticed as well. I don't know about the MJ analogy, it's too early to tell, i'll just wait & see since that's all i/us can do.:twocents:

Dr. Toro
10-18-2006, 06:15 PM
I think your perception is flawed by relativity...............Mac was an elite talent who played against inferior talent in college..............that is what allowed him to run or pass at will......I think when you look back at his first four yrs in the league he was very far behind VY in throwing even now after three games...............and the colleges and athletes they faced has much to do with it................I would strongly recommend you watch the Titans game on the NFL reply this week and you will be surprised as many of the scouts and talking heads are about just how far along he already is.....................trust me I know I was a big doubter of VY for the last 2 yrs..............over at titanscentral during the draft and before the draft I was very open about not wanting him at all...............after seeing him for 16 days in OTA's he had me sold......and he has put in so much work in film study and has the ability to elevate lesser players around him to be better............VY is going to be the NFL's Mike Jordan in about 4 yrs.................will he have ups and downs this yr....you betcha................but he will absolutely do things to win a game that will drop a jaw too....................the thing that has made an impression on me early is how poised he is and how much better he is when the situation is more pressured.....................rookie QBs never have that..............it is natural to VY. Contrary to what many of you think VY has run very little to date.................many think he has because of his 19 yd TD run against Indy......but that was because it was all over sportscenter................he is a throw first guy and he is a leader cut from the same cloth as Magic Bird and Jordan and Marino and Elway..............he has IT. And I do feel foolish now for not seeing that last yr.

He is a throw first and throw second guy right now... but I think a lot of that has to do with directives i presume he's getting from the coaches not to run... he'll run plenty when he needs to and when the team isn't in the cellar... there were probably 100 guys on this board saying the zone read was a joke and would never work in the NFL, then ATL goes and implements it and Vick's on pace to run for 1300 yards. When they really start gameplanning to maximize VY's skills, like next year, he will look like Randall Cunningham circa 1990. Not saying they need to run the zone read all the time, but it's got some merits, and is an option that isn't being utilized very much right now.

I think Fisher and Chow are handling him very well right now. His passing numbers aren't great, but I think a little bit of that has to do with the conservative playcalling meant to ease VY into things a little bit. It's a lot easier to throw on first down than on 3rd and 9... the Titans are throwing on obvious passing situations almost exclusively. I'd like to see VY connecting on the deep ball, however, I think that's actually a strength of his. I was more worried about him throwing the 20-30 yard strikes that separate the wheat from the chaff of NFL QB's, but he's had more success than I was anticipating with that.

Bongo59
10-18-2006, 07:00 PM
VY QB rating on third down is already over hundred.................his QB rating on early downs is bad...............exactly opposite of what one would expect from a rookie QB................several NFL scouts have taken notice...............even Greg Williams said when they brought more pressure on him he actually played better and when they laid off him they were able to force the Titans to run or a dump off................Williams went on to say the only rookie QB he has seen to date do better with pressure was Manning...................I agree we all need to wait to see VY.............but i think he is going to be alot better QB than many think

Wolf
10-18-2006, 08:16 PM
I think vince is going to look pretty as a rookie, esp with 2 games going against our defense :francis:

infantrycak
10-18-2006, 08:40 PM
VY QB rating on third down is already over hundred.................his QB rating on early downs is bad...............exactly opposite of what one would expect from a rookie QB

Not sure exactly where you are getting the numbers but the over all point is correct. He gains from 36.8 on 1st to 44 on 2nd to 90 on 3rd. Looking at the QB rating system one would have to say those numbers are very affected by 3 INT's on 1st down vs. 2 TD's on 3rd. but he does display a clutch factor which is very unusual in rookies on poor teams.

Bongo59
10-18-2006, 09:01 PM
Fisher told us it was 100.2 on third downs this yr according to the league...................that is outstanding for a guy who should still be at UT...................the kid can play in this league.

Titan "Tack" Fan
10-18-2006, 09:05 PM
Fisher told us it was 100.2 on third downs this yr according to the league...................that is outstanding for a guy who should still be at UT...................the kid can play in this league.

Yes he can. I love that there are VY doubters ... it just makes his success/future success so much sweeter.

Wolf
10-18-2006, 09:18 PM
Bet he doesn't beat Carr's rating in "garbage stats" ;) :D

kastofsna
10-18-2006, 09:41 PM
leinart has a 106.2 rating on 3rd downs, for the record. ;)

Tulip
10-18-2006, 10:14 PM
With little to no run support as well.

And two of the best receivers in the league.

kastofsna
10-19-2006, 06:47 AM
And two of the best receivers in the league.
fitzgerald has missed 7 of leinart's 8 quarters while starting.

run-david-run
10-19-2006, 10:17 AM
Uhhhhh.....yes he did....

He drove down the field and put his team in position to win the game with a field goal...

I like VY...and IMO, him and Matt will be great...in different ways...but both will be great....

3 points in the second half. His fumble cost them 7. He outscored himslef 7-3 in the second half, if that makes sense...

real
10-19-2006, 10:20 AM
3 points in the second half. His fumble cost them 7. He outscored himslef 7-3 in the second half, if that makes sense...

Nevermind that it was a blind side hit...Or the fact that he had someone in his face all night and was still able to sustain drives....nevermind the fact that his running back almost had more carries than yards....Nevermind that it was his first start in the NFL ever....

Just focus on the fact that he was hit from the blindside and he fumbled...

Yeah that's really logical....:rolleyes:

run-david-run
10-19-2006, 10:21 AM
Yeah, but you use his superbowl appearance & his MVP season as a reason why he was a "difference maker" all those came after his 4th year right? McNair didn't really start until 97. The next year he threw for more yardage/TD's but they didn't do anything. In 2000, the superbowl year, he was statistically worse but they got to the Superbowl, care to take a guess why? That Defense that they lived off of for the next 2-3 years was in place that's why. So b4 you dismiss Trent as a "sorry ass" You have to take into account the same thing with Mcnair as well. Bottom line is if the guy retired today is he in the HOF? I don't think so.


And who's changing their story on Cunningham? He was serviceable in his prime, but does he have any rings that he led them too? Nope Did he even lead then to a Superbowl? Nope. So that just makes him serviceable IMO.
Marino has zero rings, does that make him servicable? Football is still a team sport and you cant define an idividuals career only by the sucess of the team. Also, Cunningham was an MVP quarterback, more then just servicable methinks.

run-david-run
10-19-2006, 10:24 AM
Nevermind that it was a blind side hit...Or the fact that he had someone in his face all night and was still able to sustain drives....nevermind the fact that his running back almost had more carries than yards....Nevermind that it was his first start in the NFL ever....

Just focus on the fact that he was hit from the blindside and he fumbled...

Yeah that's really logical....:rolleyes:

So when Leinart fumbles its everyone's fault except his. just to be clear, do these reasons apply to Carr? Hell, when his receivers drop perfectly thrown balls on 4th down its carr's fault, let alone when someone comes unblocked. Also, it was his second NFL start, just an fyi. How about explaining a complete lack of points in the 2nd half when the D generated 6 turnovers, they outrushed the Bears and Grossman had his worst day as a pro?

Mr teX
10-19-2006, 10:47 AM
Marino has zero rings, does that make him servicable? Football is still a team sport and you cant define an idividuals career only by the sucess of the team. Also, Cunningham was an MVP quarterback, more then just servicable methinks.

I feel thats true, but the general consensus is that QB is the exception to that rule IMO. In today's "win or else" league a QB is defined solely on a Superbowl Ring, If he can lead his team to one, How did he play once he got there etc. I stated earlier in this thread that to ME there's a whole lot more that i weigh into whether or not a QB is one of the greats at the postion. Plus, if you go back & check my list, I named W. Moon as one of my greats, does he have a Superbowl Ring? :brickwall

I won't discuss the Marino/Cunningham thing b/c i already explained my opinion of what a "great" Qb is vs. a serviceable one is earlier in this thread (on pg. 7?).

like i've stated earlier, It's just a definition difference, nothing more.

kastofsna
10-19-2006, 11:06 AM
So when Leinart fumbles its everyone's fault except his. just to be clear, do these reasons apply to Carr? Hell, when his receivers drop perfectly thrown balls on 4th down its carr's fault, let alone when someone comes unblocked. Also, it was his second NFL start, just an fyi. How about explaining a complete lack of points in the 2nd half when the D generated 6 turnovers, they outrushed the Bears and Grossman had his worst day as a pro?
you explain that by looking at the horrible playcalling and the complete lack of a running game when trying to run the clock out. they outrushed the bears because the bears were in a 20-0 hole in a heartbeat.

when you're moving in the pocket to your left and a defender hits you in the backside unblocked, and you fumble the ball, guess what? that's not your fault. end of story.

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 12:30 PM
you explain that by looking at the horrible playcalling and the complete lack of a running game when trying to run the clock out. they outrushed the bears because the bears were in a 20-0 hole in a heartbeat.

when you're moving in the pocket to your left and a defender hits you in the backside unblocked, and you fumble the ball, guess what? that's not your fault. end of story.

& you fail to mention Arizona's defense shut Chicago's offense out for the whole game. 0.... the Chicago Bears offense scored 0 points against the Cards.

I agree with you that Lienart looked great.... at least pretty good, but I don't care who hit you, when, where or how. you hold on to the football. Think your knee's about to bend backwards?? I don't care.... hold the ball. Is that the taste of your own kidney at the front of your throat?? So what......... hold the ball.

In all fairness, it happens to everyone, it's even unrealistic...... but that's football.

run-david-run
10-19-2006, 12:33 PM
you explain that by looking at the horrible playcalling and the complete lack of a running game when trying to run the clock out. they outrushed the bears because the bears were in a 20-0 hole in a heartbeat.

when you're moving in the pocket to your left and a defender hits you in the backside unblocked, and you fumble the ball, guess what? that's not your fault. end of story.
That was more my way of pointing out Leinart and the Cardinals did nothing in the second half (gave up more points then they scored). Obviously its not his fault he fumbled, but we have no idea what the play was supposed to look like, so there is no way you can clear the Qb completly when it comes to a breakdown in blocking, maybe he missed a hot read or such, or the Cards line just sucks (very likley alternative), anyway, now Im babling. Basically, Leinart had a great first half and did absoultely nothing, partially because of playcalling and such factors, until the last drive. Lets not crown him yet.

SESupergenius
10-19-2006, 12:57 PM
That was more my way of pointing out Leinart and the Cardinals did nothing in the second half (gave up more points then they scored). Obviously its not his fault he fumbled, but we have no idea what the play was supposed to look like, so there is no way you can clear the Qb completly when it comes to a breakdown in blocking, maybe he missed a hot read or such, or the Cards line just sucks (very likley alternative), anyway, now Im babling. Basically, Leinart had a great first half and did absoultely nothing, partially because of playcalling and such factors, until the last drive. Lets not crown him yet.
With a 20 point lead it's natural for teams like this to play conservative and stick with the run game. Doing that agains the Bears would be very difficult so Green played the playbook as normal. The sack and fumble for a TD was not on Lienart nor was EJ's fumble nor was the Kick off return for a TD. See a series of events here that border on being called a miracle? I do, it was just one of the Monday night games that was just plain wierd, I don't know how many times I've seen these kinds of games on MNF over the last 10 years. I watch MNF no matter what team is on because it can get wild.

real
10-19-2006, 01:17 PM
Leinart had a great first half and did absoultely nothing, partially because of playcalling and such factors, until the last drive. Lets not crown him yet.

Ok...Well Here is your first response:

3 points in the second half. His fumble cost them 7. He outscored himslef 7-3 in the second half, if that makes sense...


This is the statement you defended:All Im saying is that he didnt play well win it mattered most.

Ok...Now try to follow me....

The argument started over someone saying that Leinart didn't play well when it mattered most...

My response was:

Uhhhhh.....yes he did....
He drove down the field and put his team in position to win the game with a field goal...



What am I missing....

Then you go on about how he fumbled................Well, he did...regardless of the circumstances...............BUT my response was to the fact that someone said he didn't play well when it mattered most.....Thats not true....

And forget about it being his first game starting ever...and all the other factors that should have kept this game from even being a game....Just focus on that fumble.....And if that equates in your head to him doing "absolutely nothing"....Then I'd like to have a lot of nothing going on around here...

kastofsna
10-19-2006, 01:57 PM
& you fail to mention Arizona's defense shut Chicago's offense out for the whole game. 0.... the Chicago Bears offense scored 0 points against the Cards.
i didn't mention it because that has nothing to do with leinart.
I agree with you that Lienart looked great.... at least pretty good, but I don't care who hit you, when, where or how. you hold on to the football. Think your knee's about to bend backwards?? I don't care.... hold the ball. Is that the taste of your own kidney at the front of your throat?? So what......... hold the ball.
whatever ya say, champ.
In all fairness, it happens to everyone, it's even unrealistic...... but that's football.
.......oooooookay.

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 07:45 PM
And forget about it being his first game starting ever...and all the other factors that should have kept this game from even being a game....Just focus on that fumble.....And if that equates in your head to him doing "absolutely nothing"....Then I'd like to have a lot of nothing going on around here...

I agree that LIenart had a really good game(maybe great.....) but taking in the factors that should have kept this game from even being a game..... it's got me thinking the Bears were looking past the Cardinals, and got caught napping. The total shut out of the Cardinals in the second half, the team looking like someone flipped a switch, The Bears not looking like the Bears early in the game.....

If the Cardinals would have won, Lienart would have gotten all the credit, even though The Cardinals defense only gave up 3 points the entire game. & that's fine, he played as well as many team starters(ours maybe??) would have in the same situation.

I wouldn't say he did nothing, but I wouldn't say he did as well as many folks are saying either. His first Qtr against the Bears, was roughly equivalent to our 4th QTr against the Colts, or the 'Skins....

Maddict5
10-19-2006, 07:57 PM
^^except he was facing the best D in the nfl... with the game still competitive- just repeat after me:'leinart had a great first start for a rookie and looks like the real deal'

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 08:18 PM
^^except he was facing the best D in the nfl... with the game still competitive- just repeat after me:'leinart had a great first start for a rookie and looks like the real deal'

Except they were sleeping.

but I agree, "lienart had a great first start for a rookie..... he looks like the real deal"

thunderkyss
10-19-2006, 08:20 PM
In my opinion, the Titans would have won atleast one more game so far if they had drafted Leinart instead of Young. :stirpot:

Trust me, we don't want to start this......

infantrycak
10-19-2006, 08:26 PM
OK--I just hit the wrong buttons and screwed up a BattleRed post (#180). The one that appears to be quoting Ses by BRT was meant to be a new post by me. Sorry for the non-recoverable error.

Wolf
10-19-2006, 08:41 PM
he has a 56 QB rating.. and this thread is dragging along like he is the next greatest thing since sliced bread (I know I just added to it).


I think VY will be a good player in this league..lets let him develop and go from there


and for the Carr/VY debate.. Carr has a 94.4 rating ..

apples/oranges...different systems.. titans offensive system/texans offensive system

Bongo59
10-19-2006, 08:45 PM
In my opinion, the Titans would have won atleast one more game so far if they had drafted Leinart instead of Young. :stirpot:the titans would have beaten the jets and Miami if VY was the QB and not Collins.................

Wolf
10-19-2006, 10:17 PM
the titans would have beaten the jets and Miami if VY was the QB and not Collins.................

that is a given how???

kastofsna
10-19-2006, 10:33 PM
the titans would have beaten the jets and Miami if VY was the QB and not Collins.................
i sincerely doubt that.

infantrycak
10-19-2006, 11:37 PM
the titans would have beaten the jets and Miami if VY was the QB and not Collins.................

Dude--Nevada's pot law isn't in effect yet. Pass the pipe so it isn't so obvious.

Vince is doing really well but sheesh if typing involved your mouth...

Charter PSL Fan
10-19-2006, 11:45 PM
the titans would have beaten the jets and Miami if VY was the QB and not Collins.................

the titans would have beaten the jets and Miami if David Carr was the QB and not Collins.................

threetoedpete
10-20-2006, 02:20 AM
Yeah--it is amazing what 178 yds of rushing will do for a QB--look he may actually top 50% completions for the day.

Logic and facts are no match for VY man love. The VY force is much too great. My book says the guy has spit the bit with every coach that has tried to straighten out that funky dilevery. Norm Chow, even though he's got two in the pros currently doin "it" ,will not be able to crack that thick skull. Once a hard head, always a hard head I say. There's a reason Steve McNair has not been able to complete an NFL season the last four years. There's a reason Farve gave up running long ago. There are old QBs in the nfl. But there are no old bold running QBs in the NFL. Joe Capp is still urinating blood.

real
10-20-2006, 07:50 AM
I wouldn't say he did nothing, but I wouldn't say he did as well as many folks are saying either. His first Qtr against the Bears, was roughly equivalent to our 4th QTr against the Colts, or the 'Skins....

earlier in the same post....

I agree that LIenart had a really good game(maybe great.....)

Hey if anybody is saying Leinart had an epic game point 'em out....

I don't know who "many folks" is, but I'm not ready to hear his induction speech just yet....

You have to remember that this guy was making his first start ever in the NFL...missed a lot of time with the team early on...Monday night football....Playing a team with a ferocious defense, a team many people are throwing out speculation about going undefeated...Not to mention his horrible offensive line, horrible play calling....The Bears come back and take all the momentum...defensive scoring and special teams....The chips are down.....He then proceeds to come out on the last drive and flawlessley(sp) drives his team down the field and puts them in perfect position to win the game...........Tom Brady esque..........From a rookie...never mind his actual on field performance...which was great...but look at how he managed the game...controlled the offense.....no running game......Hey in my book that = Great.....I don't know how you could expect your rookie QB with all those circumstances to do any better.....And Im not really sure how you can overhype that, but I can sure see a lot of undervaluing going on....

real
10-20-2006, 07:56 AM
Logic and facts are no match for VY man love. The VY force is much too great. My book says the guy has spit the bit with every coach that has tried to straighten out that funky dilevery. Norm Chow, even though he's got two in the pros currently doin "it" ,will not be able to crack that thick skull. Once a hard head, always a hard head I say. There's a reason Steve McNair has not been able to complete an NFL season the last four years. There's a reason Farve gave up running long ago. There are old QBs in the nfl. But there are no old bold running QBs in the NFL. Joe Capp is still urinating blood.

Get hip man....catch up with the times.....The world is changing.......

People are doing things that haven't been done everyday.......

You are the same guy that told Columbus the world was flat.....Don't try it you'll fall off....

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 08:24 AM
you mean that Carr-like delivery he has?

I could care less what a QB's delivery looks like as long as the ball gets where he intends. Heck at this point the weird delivery QB's are about to outnumber the perfect delivery QB's in the NFL. Folks need to not worry about Rivers, Favre, Carr, VY, etc. and worry about the results.

Get hip man....catch up with the times.....The world is changing.......

People are doing things that haven't been done everyday.......

You are the same guy that told Columbus the world was flat.....Don't try it you'll fall off....

If you say so. I have been hearing that since the days of Staubach, Cunningham and Tarkenton--none of them changed the game (I know, but they weren't as yada yada as this guy)--a QB still needs to spend most of his time behind his line distributing the ball down field.

kastofsna
10-20-2006, 08:36 AM
are people still talking about his delivery? it's the least of his problems.

real
10-20-2006, 08:38 AM
If you say so. I have been hearing that since the days of Staubach, Cunningham and Tarkenton--none of them changed the game (I know, but they weren't as yada yada as this guy)--a QB still needs to spend most of his time behind his line distributing the ball down field.

Well if you all want to keep judging a guy off of past peoples success and/or failures....then go ahead....

Me....Im going to judge a guy off of what I've seen out of said guy....

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 08:40 AM
i am not about to post why it was true that VY would have beaten the Jets and Mia becuase for you to understand the premise you would havfe had to seen how inept Collins was. We did nothing in the Jet game for 3 Q's on offense. Collins had a week worth of practices and threw several picks...........VY got in for one series and made a few nice throws and was yanked after a pick on a deep ball that amounted to nothing. He also scored a two point conversion with ease that day.................against Miami we had then beat when Ajones returned a punt for 80yds and a TD but it was called back.......then the nest drive Collins turns it over............for the record......Collins had 6 picks in three games....................VY easily would have gotten us wins in both games. It is not really arguable...............

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 08:44 AM
Well if you all want to keep judging a guy off of past peoples success and/or failures....then go ahead....

Me....Im going to judge a guy off of what I've seen out of said guy....

I think VY is going to be a success as an NFL QB but it won't be by revolutionizing the position. He isn't going to rack up over 500 yds rushing in more than 1 or 2 seasons if ever. Look at him this year--he has 20 rushing plays and 17 of those were scrambles. My point is not that he won't be a success, but that he won't change the position as we know it.

kastofsna
10-20-2006, 08:46 AM
It is not really arguable...............
oh okay.

kastofsna
10-20-2006, 08:48 AM
It really isn't...I saw those games and Collins was awful.
you can't guarantee a win for a rookie QB's first start.

real
10-20-2006, 08:54 AM
I think VY is going to be a success as an NFL QB but it won't be by revolutionizing the position. He isn't going to rack up over 500 yds rushing in more than 1 or 2 seasons if ever. Look at him this year--he has 20 rushing plays and 17 of those were scrambles. My point is not that he won't be a success, but that he won't change the position as we know it.

I'm not going to go out on a limb and say he's going to "change the game"....

On the other hand I wouldn't go out on a limb and say he's not going to either....

real
10-20-2006, 08:56 AM
you can't guarantee a win for a rookie QB's first start.

It's just like people saying we would have won 1-2 more games if DD was playing....

You can make just as much a garuntee about that as you can make about a veteran....any given sunday....I don't think he's claiming to be a soothe sayer....I think he's just saying that they would have had a better chance, and he believes they could have won with V.Young at the helms....I don't see the problem.....

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:13 AM
you can't guarantee a win for a rookie QB's first start.
no you cant but you cant argue the point when you did not see just how bad Collins was...........he performed worse than Ryan Leaf in his rookie yr and that is the point you dont get because you did not see the game.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:14 AM
I think VY is going to be a success as an NFL QB but it won't be by revolutionizing the position. He isn't going to rack up over 500 yds rushing in more than 1 or 2 seasons if ever. Look at him this year--he has 20 rushing plays and 17 of those were scrambles. My point is not that he won't be a success, but that he won't change the position as we know it.
while I am inclined to agree I think he is going to be an elite QB............just not with his legs............I do however expect him to exceed McNairs career numbers in rushing which are quite stoudt in and of themselves.

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 09:20 AM
I didn't guarantee anything...I'm just corroborating the fact that Collins not only didn't help the team but was the reason they lost the games. Replacing the player that is losing your games is a key to winning more in the future.

This is going to be a comment about team changes and not VY. What has Fisher done to change the running game? One of the things that seriously contributed to the Miami loss was a totally ineffective running game which as opposed to our consistantly bad running game, the Titans have all the sudden transformed into a powerhouse running game which anyone has to admit makes things better for whoever is the QB. They have also been playing much better D recently. I want to see mid-season changes on the Texans without big roster changes--i.e. coaching. OK rant off.

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 09:24 AM
while I am inclined to agree I think he is going to be an elite QB............just not with his legs............I do however expect him to exceed McNairs career numbers in rushing which are quite stoudt in and of themselves.

Funny thing is I am expecting contrary to my hopes. IMO if Young exceeds McNair's rushing, the Texans are probably over his career going to have a much better chance at being above TN in the standings. Young will become an elite QB IMO by showing his leadership and poise behind the LOS not in front of it. If Carr has more rushing yds than Young--y'all are a better team every year. Young needs to be watching tape of Roger Staubach and not Michael Vick--then he may be next to Staubach one day in bronze while Vick never will be.

kastofsna
10-20-2006, 09:27 AM
no you cant but you cant argue the point when you did not see just how bad Collins was...........he performed worse than Ryan Leaf in his rookie yr and that is the point you dont get because you did not see the game.
i've watched every play of every dolphins game this year, thanks.

collins did his damndest to lose that game all by himself, but there's no guarantee young would've done any better. miami has the #4 defense. wouldn't have been easy.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:28 AM
This is going to be a comment about team changes and not VY. What has Fisher done to change the running game? One of the things that seriously contributed to the Miami loss was a totally ineffective running game which as opposed to our consistantly bad running game, the Titans have all the sudden transformed into a powerhouse running game which anyone has to admit makes things better for whoever is the QB. They have also been playing much better D recently. I want to see mid-season changes on the Texans without big roster changes--i.e. coaching. OK rant off.easy............fish did nothing Pillar got hurt and they moved bell to his spot and put Stewart in...........a move fans and the media have asked for for 18 games.................

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:29 AM
i've watched every play of every dolphins game this year, thanks.

collins did his damndest to lose that game all by himself, but there's no guarantee young would've done any better. miami has the #4 defense. wouldn't have been easy.Then I think your neuronally challenged...........and there is no point of engaging you in discussion.

kastofsna
10-20-2006, 09:30 AM
Then I think your neuronally challenged...........and there is no point of engaging you in discussion.
oh, okay.

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 09:30 AM
easy............fish did nothing Pillar got hurt and they moved bell to his spot and put Stewart in...........a move fans and the media have asked for for 18 games.................

Interesting. I watch TN quite a bit but not enough to know if that is an overstatement or a sad commentary on the coaching staff.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:30 AM
Funny thing is I am expecting contrary to my hopes. IMO if Young exceeds McNair's rushing, the Texans are probably over his career going to have a much better chance at being above TN in the standings. Young will become an elite QB IMO by showing his leadership and poise behind the LOS not in front of it. If Carr has more rushing yds than Young--y'all are a better team every year. Young needs to be watching tape of Roger Staubach and not Michael Vick--then he may be next to Staubach one day in bronze while Vick never will be.
I think you missed my point............I think VY will exceed Mac passing numbers and running numbers easily............I think Fiher knows he wasted some of Macs best yrs playing smashmouth football...........he wont do the same with Vince. i think by next yr the Titans will be above everyone in the South...............we have 35 mil in cap space and 10 picks to help...........plus a ton of young talent already on the roster that will get better.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:32 AM
Interesting. I watch TN quite a bit but not enough to know if that is an overstatement or a sad commentary on the coaching staff.
I am not A Fish fan.............he is loyal to a fault to vets.........and it has cost us a SB or two. His two current man crushes are Sirmon and Lamont Thompson............both are pan hated in TN and sadly we have back ups at both spots who are already better.............in Fuller and Tulloch.

Mr teX
10-20-2006, 09:37 AM
I think you missed my point............I think VY will exceed Mac passing numbers and running numbers easily............I think Fiher knows he wasted some of Macs best yrs playing smashmouth football...........he wont do the same with Vince.

I don't know about that, I think that is part of fisher's philosophy. Smashmouth football ( you forget the teams he played on as a pro) is how he feels his team has to win. I think he tried it other ways when he drafted Brown/Volek that didn't work so he got back to The Mcnair/George combo & drafted a stud bruising RB in Lendale & got a bigger than normal QB with huge upside. :twocents:

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 09:41 AM
I think you missed my point............I think VY will exceed Mac passing numbers and running numbers easily............

And I think you missed my point. IMO one of the hardest things for any QB able to run (not saying run 1st just able to run well) to do is learn not to run except when absolutely necessary. That's why I gave those examples. Staubach could have run for a ton more yards but knew he was more valuable throwing the ball. Vick will never get that. Who would you rather have as your QB--Staubach or Vick? My point was just VY needs to lean toward Staubach.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:47 AM
And I think you missed my point. IMO one of the hardest things for any QB able to run (not saying run 1st just able to run well) to do is learn not to run except when absolutely necessary. That's why I gave those examples. Staubach could have run for a ton more yards but knew he was more valuable throwing the ball. Vick will never get that. Who would you rather have as your QB--Staubach or Vick? My point was just VY needs to lean toward Staubach.
i got that point...........but VY is out to dispove the Vick theory...........many criticisized him for being run first freak would would follow the path of Vick...............he wont............he can actually throw when Vick has cannon but he cant aim....................VY is way further along than any of his contemporary comparison at QB................I think he'll become very dangerous when he chooses his spots................kinda like they did at indy when they ran toward Freeney twice and beat him both times.............it took alot of pass rush intensity out of Freeney the rest fo the game...................the DE cant rush upfiled with VY...............Cowboys played it just that way

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 09:49 AM
This is where he redefines the QB position as we know it cakster. Nice watermark you threw out there...I think he gets there. He is a better runner than McNair is. He has more moves in short space than mac9 has (stevie was more of a fullback type runner)....and you know my position on his passing game. We blew it starting over not building a team around him....but that's me.

Was the bold sarcasm?

I think folks are taking me wrong--I am being optimistic about VY in my way in not projecting lots of rushing yds. IMO that is a good thing regardless of his talent level for running. Staubach could have run for more yards and would have been a worse QB if he had. I'm projecting VY becoming great by staying behind the LOS and distributing the ball while helping his OL with his mobility and making only the critical 3rd down and TD clutch running plays instead of racking up career rushing yds.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:50 AM
I don't know about that, I think that is part of fisher's philosophy. Smashmouth football ( you forget the teams he played on as a pro) is how he feels his team has to win. I think he tried it other ways when he drafted Brown/Volek that didn't work so he got back to The Mcnair/George combo & drafted a stud bruising RB in Lendale & got a bigger than normal QB with huge upside. :twocents:it is how he thinks but it is not always right when you have elite talent on the team and fail to use............that is opportunity costs..............and in 99 and 00 we ran EG threw walls..........and got nothing............but when we finally put the ball in Mac hands and not EG things happened.............unfortunately our team was no longer elite in 01-04.................if mac had been given the ball in 99 and 00 I know we would have won a SB...............just remember the second half of the SB against the Rams.............Mac was a god on that last drive.............the first 3 Q's it was give it to EG to run into a wall of Rams.........It is interesting to see how you guys look at your old team and how we look at it....................

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 09:54 AM
I think folks are taking me wrong--I am being optimistic about VY in my way in not projecting lots of rushing yds. IMO that is a good thing regardless of his talent level for running. Staubach could have run for more yards and would have been a worse QB if he had. I'm projecting VY becoming great by staying behind the LOS and distributing the ball while helping his OL with his mobility and making only the critical 3rd down and TD clutch running plays instead of racking up career rushing yds.I'll give you one game that encapsulates to me what VY will become................the 99 AFC championship game against the Jags...............Mac killed the Jags via the air............and when the chips were down and the Jags had us all covered with their great d............mac ran up the gut out of the shot gun for 53 yd TD to win the game...................the one guy who is uncovered in the run game in the NFL............is the QB...............and if he can sustain drives you will have great suceess as long as it is not your offensive identity....................like it is in ATL...................there must be a throwing pocket threat for VY to be elite like Mike Jordan.......moreover ask any jag fan about the 99 season and they will tell you the difference in us and them was Mac play...............in our dec meeting he threw 5 TD on them..............he missed the first game that yr in week two with a disc operation.............Samari won it on a pick in the 4th..................Mac killed the jags in the second half................of the final game..............he was our MVP but Fish thought it was EG....................and that is why we lost.

Mr teX
10-20-2006, 09:56 AM
it is how he thinks but it is not always right when you have elite talent on the team and fail to use............that is opportunity costs..............and in 99 and 00 we ran EG threw walls..........and got nothing............but when we finally put the ball in Mac hands and not EG things happened.............unfortunately our team was no longer elite in 01-04.................if mac had been given the ball in 99 and 00 I know we would have won a SB...............just remember the second half of the SB against the Rams.............Mac was a good on that last drive.............the first 3 Q's it was give it to EG to run into a wall of Rams.........It is interesting to see how you guys look at your old team and how we look at it....................

Yeah, but eddie was clearly the horse Fish wanted to ride & can you blame him? it got him to a SB & was statistically EG's best year.

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 09:57 AM
I thought you indirectly threw down a watermark of sorts so I right-brained you into submission.

Between the watermark and submission I am confused and kind of scared. Oh well--everyone is optimistic about VY.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 10:01 AM
Yeah, but eddie was clearly the horse Fish wanted to ride & can you blame him? it got him to a SB & was statistically EG's best year.
i do blame him..............EG was ordinary............below a 4 yd carry back just about every yr of his career............who got his yds because we had a great OL and a coach who fed him the rock 35 times a game..........Mac weas our real playmaker and EG was mister dependable.....if Mac got the ball that much those yrs.............we easily win one SB...............giving it to EG was not always a smart decision.............every O needs balance and we had it but Fish never used it.

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 10:01 AM
I'll give you one game that encapsulates to me what VY will become................the 99 AFC championship game against the Jags...............Mac killed the Jags via the air............and when the chips were down and the Jags had us all covered with their great d............mac ran up the gut out of the shot gun for 53 yd TD to win the game..................

And I expect VY to do things like that but look at that year--Mac only had 339 yds rushing on the year--significantly lower than the 2 years prior. I am not saying VY will not be a rushing threat or that he shouldn't rush at all--simply that he needs to be smart about it and if he is his rushing yds will not look great but he will be a better QB than if he racks up high yardage rushing stats.

thunderkyss
10-20-2006, 10:06 AM
earlier in the same post....



Hey if anybody is saying Leinart had an epic game point 'em out....

I don't know who "many folks" is, but I'm not ready to hear his induction speech just yet....

You have to remember that this guy was making his first start ever in the NFL...missed a lot of time with the team early on...Monday night football....Playing a team with a ferocious defense, a team many people are throwing out speculation about going undefeated...Not to mention his horrible offensive line, horrible play calling....The Bears come back and take all the momentum...

& that's why I'm saying he had a great game with an asterick. It was great, considering he is a rookie, and their OL isn't very good. It's not as great as people saying he picked apart the great Chicago Bears defense.

That was a trap game for Chicago...... the bears had to come back, and take the momentum, because they weren't playing as well as they usually do. Maybe it was because Lienart was so good(I don't believe that, but if you do, that's your perogative.). Maybe it was because they had nothing to prepare them for this young QB(very likely...) or because they thought this game was already won, before they got off the plane, and allowed their focus to be on something other than this game(this is what I'd rather believe).

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 10:06 AM
And I expect VY to do things like that but look at that year--Mac only had 339 yds rushing on the year--significantly lower than the 2 years prior. I am not saying VY will not be a rushing threat or that he shouldn't rush at all--simply that he needs to be smart about it and if he is his rushing yds will not look great but he will be a better QB than if he racks up high yardage rushing stats.why...............he missed games 2-7 with a disc operation....................he came back and beat the rams in week 8 and handed them their first loss................trust me Mac was the man then.

Mr teX
10-20-2006, 10:07 AM
i do blame him..............EG was ordinary............below a 4 yd carry back just about every yr of his career............who got his yds because we had a great OL and a coach who fed him the rock 35 times a game..........Mac weas our real playmaker and EG was mister dependable.....if Mac got the ball that much those yrs.............we easily win one SB...............giving it to EG was not always a smart decision.............every O needs balance and we had it but Fish never used it.


Yeah good point, but going into games IMO EG was the guy teams were trying to stop. It was just the eb & flow of both of those guys playing together.

infantrycak
10-20-2006, 10:09 AM
why...............he missed games 2-7 with a disc operation....................he came back and beat the rams in week 8 and handed them their first loss................trust me Mac was the man then.

That's fine--I wasn't knocking Mac. We will just agree to disagree. I think VY's career will be better if he is a clutch runner and not a stats runner.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 10:12 AM
[/B]


Yeah good point, but going into games IMO EG was the guy teams were trying to stop. It was just the eb & flow of both of those guys playing together.
maybe but many up here in TN feel Fisher has faalt coaching weaknesses...............he is single handedly responsible for the 2000 playoff loss to the Ravens...............he opted to kick a filed goal instead of going for a 4th an inch with EG..............and EG that day was killing the Ravens...........he ran the first drive that day to 7...........he had 91 yds on 18 carries in three Q's.............but fish let Al del Greco kick and it was blocked for a TD.............and the Ravens beat us with 112 yds of total offense.............they scored one def TD and two ST TDs that day.

kastofsna
10-20-2006, 10:49 AM
maybe but many up here in TN feel Fisher has faalt coaching weaknesses...............he is single handedly responsible for the 2000 playoff loss to the Ravens...............he opted to kick a filed goal instead of going for a 4th an inch with EG..............and EG that day was killing the Ravens...........he ran the first drive that day to 7...........he had 91 yds on 18 carries in three Q's.............but fish let Al del Greco kick and it was blocked for a TD.............and the Ravens beat us with 112 yds of total offense.............they scored one def TD and two ST TDs that day.
6 years ago, eh?

also, there was no one stopping those ravens.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 06:45 PM
You are in Metairie, LA, right? Why aren't you a Saints fan then?
i root for the saints too...............I have season tix to 6 NFL teams............an i live in three states different times of the yr................this week I will be watching the Saints live.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 06:51 PM
Actually I think you mean next week. The Saints are on their bye week, this week.i did my bad.............

thunderkyss
10-20-2006, 07:10 PM
Here is something you can chew on. Fisher and Chow didn't want to draft Vince Young, either. Bud Adams forced them to draft him over their objections for Leinart instead. Also, there is a good chance Adams will be dumb enough to fire Fisher after this season, so he may not be there to " waste" Young's best years. :yikes:

This is just pre-draft rumor. None of it has been substantiated as anything more than smoke. I'm sure the Titan's would've loved for the Raiders to trade up to take Lienart, and they'd still be able to get Young, plus an additional pick.

I understand that Chow worked with Lienart at USC, and would have liked to continue that relationship. But who's to say that he doesn't appreciate the pure athelete that is VinceYoung. For all we know NormChow is probably a big JayZ fan by now.

I also find it strange to think Fisher, the guy who selected McNair in the first place wouldn't be excited about Version 2.0

kastofsna
10-20-2006, 07:36 PM
fisher and chow definitely wanted leinart over young. that doesn't mean they didn't want young too, though.

thunderkyss
10-20-2006, 08:05 PM
fisher and chow definitely wanted leinart over young.

I don't think so.

Bongo59
10-20-2006, 08:22 PM
For the record fisher did not want mac in 94 he wanted KCarter............Reese took Mac...............and Reese got Young. Fisher has little say in the picks.

HJam72
10-21-2006, 03:08 AM
I wanted Bucky. :ok:

kastofsna
10-21-2006, 08:29 AM
For the record fisher did not want mac in 94 he wanted KCarter............Reese took Mac...............and Reese got Young. Fisher has little say in the picks.
yessir.