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Sudds
10-04-2006, 12:55 AM
If DC continues on this pace, he's looking at:

3,500 yards passing
28 passing TDs
4 rushing TDs
8 interceptions

That my friends is the NFL's most improved player honor. However, I think DC only cares about how many wins the Texans have at the end of the season. Regardless, I admire the guy for his toughness, ability to handle unprecidended crisitism, 212 sacks handled with class, and his work ethic under Kubiak. We should be proud to have a guy with this type of character and mental strength on our team.

rockabilly
10-04-2006, 01:13 AM
Carr currently has more passing TD's than Peyton. Improvement? I think so....

TK_Gamer
10-04-2006, 05:52 AM
If DC continues on this pace, he's looking at:

3,500 yards passing
28 passing TDs
4 rushing TDs
8 interceptions

That my friends is the NFL's most improved player honor. However, I think DC only cares about how many wins the Texans have at the end of the season. Regardless, I admire the guy for his toughness, ability to handle unprecidended crisitism, 212 sacks handled with class, and his work ethic under Kubiak. We should be proud to have a guy with this type of character and mental strength on our team.

yes, and announcers and even other players have called Carr one of the toughest players in the NFL not just the toughest QB. I think he has and allways has had awkward footwork and atypical delivery and alot of people have a thing with that, so they never figured he would make it to the superstar QB level. He might not, but we could do ALOT worse than Carr for our QB. unfortunately as well as Kubiak has done with David, unless our oline keeps improving he will prolly not reach his full potential as a Texan.

NJ Texan
10-04-2006, 09:35 AM
Lets hope so. So far, the most I've heard about David Carr on the national media was a side comment by Tony on PTI, and the segment wasn't even on the Texans at the time.

Cgold
10-04-2006, 09:52 AM
I think this is only the beginning of a new chapter for carr...

the wonger need food
10-04-2006, 09:55 AM
He's still got a long way to go. The crazy thing is that he's putting up these numbers with zero running game and still getting sacked a lot. We're definitely seeing some progress which is nice. Now if we can get rid of the fumbles and get him some protection he'll be a top 10 QB.

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 10:02 AM
He's still got a long way to go. The crazy thing is that he's putting up these numbers with zero running game and still getting sacked a lot. We're definitely seeing some progress which is nice. Now if we can get rid of the fumbles and get him some protection he'll be a top 10 QB.

Sounds simple enough huh? You wouldn't think these would be issues for 4 going on 5 years now. Thanks Dom.

Vinny
10-04-2006, 10:04 AM
I'd probably "top 10" him right now...but he is in the back half. He is on course to rise the charts though. He's done some things that I didn't think he would ever do well (60 games is a long time). Kudos to him.

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 10:29 AM
I think that the numbers are still a little skewed, I wouldn't rank him in the top 10 just yet. He's got a fantastic completion percentage, but overall, his turnovers need to be added to his QB rating to get a complete picture. I like the fact that he's airing it out more and letting the receivers go get the ball. I had him pegged around 20 TD's and 10 INTS this year to call him a success, he's well on his way. Now if we can get a running game, he'd be all that much better.

Vinny
10-04-2006, 10:30 AM
I think that the numbers are still a little skewed, I wouldn't rank him in the top 10 just yet. He's got a fantastic completion percentage, but overall, his turnovers need to be added to his QB rating to get a complete picture. I like the fact that he's airing it out more and letting the receivers go get the ball. I had him pegged around 20 TD's and 10 INTS this year to call him a success, he's well on his way. Now if we can get a running game, he'd be all that much better.who are the ten guys you put in front of him? (all based on this year's performances)

Marcus
10-04-2006, 10:34 AM
What boggles my mind is that the David Carr I saw last year, was basically the same David Carr I saw in preseason. I saw no improvement whatsoever. I was finally beginning to think it was a monumental mistake to extend him, that he was permanently damaged goods.

But the transformation that's taken place in just 3 games is what blows me away. I would have thought 'the Kubiak experiment', would take a lot longer to notice improvement in correcting the issues that he had. I'm amazed.

Frills
10-04-2006, 10:36 AM
Not in order, off the top of my head, I'm most likely leaving someone out.

Frye, Grossman, Hasselbeck, Peyton, Brees, Pennington, and Kitna

I put Carr, Pennington, Kitna, and Grossman all about the same level.

edited McNabb, knew I'd forget one

real
10-04-2006, 10:41 AM
Not in order, off the top of my head, I'm most likely leaving someone out.

Frye, Grossman, Hasselbeck, Peyton, Brees, Pennington, and Kitna

I put Carr, Pennington, Kitna, and Grossman all about the same level.

edited McNabb, knew I'd forget one

Question: Where would you put Vick ??

He's not your traditional QB...But He's probaly doing more for his team, than some of the guys you named....Where is he on your list ??

thunderkyss
10-04-2006, 10:54 AM
What boggles my mind is that the David Carr I saw last year, was basically the same David Carr I saw in preseason. I saw no improvement whatsoever. I was finally beginning to think it was a monumental mistake to extend him, that he was permanently damaged goods.

But the transformation that's taken place in just 3 games is what blows me away. I would have thought 'the Kubiak experiment', would take a lot longer to notice improvement in correcting the issues that he had. I'm amazed.

I saw improvement since the first Preseason game. He wasn't playing scared.. a little hurried, happy feet an all that..... but definitely not scarred like last year.

That was my biggest fear. All those other things you can work out, but if he's scared to take a hit, forget about it.

Look at JakePlummer..... if he gets things going his way, you'll always have to wonder when the other Plummer is going to show up again. What I liked about Jake, was just like David, he played well on a bad team. But Jake had two years of playing scared in Arizona before going to Denver. I gave up on Jake his last year in Arizona..... so far, Jake has proven me right.

David........ I thought sure enough he was ruined. But either McNair got to him in time(1 year of playing scared vs the two Jake had), or He's mentally tougher than I thought he was...... I like to believe the latter.

But he's been getting better & better from the first preseason game. Little things for sure, & I can understand someone thinking he all of a sudden got better.

It's only a matter of time, before that light goes off in his head, and he understands how he is affecting the game. When he learns that defenses cheat based on what he is doing. The Safeties slide a little more towards his favorite reciever, the LBs keep everything in front of them, the Corners freely leave "their man" when blitzing, with little concern of a hot route. When he learns to recognize those things, and how he can/should take advantage of those things, then he can start imposing his will on the game, and controlling the outcome.

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 11:02 AM
who are the ten guys you put in front of him? (all based on this year's performances)
I just look at the circumstances of the performances of the QB's. Carr has had 2 very good all around games and 2 games where he was sporadic and made some TD's late in the game when we were blown out. Factor in the fumbles on the exchanges his play really hasn't been in the top 10, just IMO. I'm really looking forward to see how he plays against a touch D like Dallas and the Jags. I'd say he's around top 15 however.

Vinny: I think you are just setting this up to give props to Carr because when I start him in our fantasy league against you and he lays the smack down on your team. ;)

the wonger need food
10-04-2006, 11:03 AM
I don't think that you can rank QB's solely on statistics and wins have to be considered. This would be my top 10 list so far this season...

1. McNabb
2. Manning
3. Grossman
4. Bulger
5. Pennington
6. Palmer
7. Brady
8. Carr
9. Leftwich
10. Brunell

Vinny
10-04-2006, 11:04 AM
Vinny: I think you are just setting this up to give props to Carr because when I start him in our fantasy league against you and he lays the smack down on your team. ;) LOL

I'd probably say these guys are my top ten this year other than Carr....he is close to this group.... I didn't go off stats or anything, just some quick early observations. Some of these guys have great stats...some of these guys are just clutch, but I think all of them are keys to their teams winning games (at least so far this year).

Donovan McNabb
Peyton Manning
Drew Brees
Rex Grossman
Marc Bulger
Chad Pennington
Carson Palmer
Eli Manning
Tom Brady
Steve McNair

Charter PSL Fan
10-04-2006, 11:04 AM
From todays Chronicle,
David Carr, who grew up in Bakersfield, Calif., more than 900 miles from the closest entry point to the Lone Star State and some 1,600 miles from the Astrodome, wants to make it clear: He does hate the Dallas Cowboys.

Because of this statement I am now a fan of Carr for life. Could this be the return of Carl Mauck? David, please show this hate on the field against the cowgirls.

:logo: :wherewill :logo: :wherewill

real
10-04-2006, 11:06 AM
I don't think that you can rank QB's solely on statistics and wins have to be considered. This would be my top 10 list so far this season...

1. McNabb
2. Manning
3. Grossman
4. Bulger
5. Pennington
6. Palmer
7. Brady
8. Carr
9. Leftwich
10. Brunell

If you are basing it off of wins and not soley on stats...where is Vick on your list...IMO, Vick has done more for his team than Brunell and Leftwich...and Carr too...and Bulger.....

the wonger need food
10-04-2006, 11:07 AM
From todays Chronicle,
David Carr, who grew up in Bakersfield, Calif., more than 900 miles from the closest entry point to the Lone Star State and some 1,600 miles from the Astrodome, wants to make it clear: He does hate the Dallas Cowboys.

Because of this statement I am now a fan of Carr for life. Could this be the return of Carl Mauck? David, please show this hate on the field against the cowgirls.

:logo: :wherewill :logo: :wherewill

He was a Cowboy fan at one time, specifically an Aikman fan. I'm sure he's just saying that to appease us.

real
10-04-2006, 11:08 AM
Where is Vick on all of your lists...He's done way more for his team than some of the guys you all are listing..

Vinny
10-04-2006, 11:09 AM
If you are basing it off of wins and not soley on stats...where is Vick on your list...IMO, Vick has done more for his team than Brunell and Leftwich...and Carr too...and Bulger.....I left Vick off my list because of the Saints game. If you are a liability when you are behind I can't consider you a great QB. With the lead Vick is one of the more interesting QB's and very hard to stop.

the wonger need food
10-04-2006, 11:10 AM
If you are basing it off of wins and not soley on stats...where is Vick on your list...IMO, Vick has done more for his team than Brunell and Leftwich...and Carr too...and Bulger.....

It's a combination of the 2 mixed with personal biases. Brees was left off also and he is having a better year than Vick.

run-david-run
10-04-2006, 11:13 AM
I would put Carr close to the top 10 based on this year, and how many QB's could you say that with if they had one of the worst lines in the NFL and down two starters? He was one of the few bright lights during our 3 game losing skid and seemes to be getting more comfortable with every game. And of course now we have to wait two weeks to see him play again...i hate you bye week

real
10-04-2006, 11:16 AM
I left Vick off my list because of the Saints game. If you are a liability when you are behind I can't consider you a great QB. With the lead Vick is one of the more interesting QB's and very hard to stop.

It's a combination of the 2 mixed with personal biases. Brees was left off also and he is having a better year than Vick.


I can understand where both of you are coming from...

But I think that the saints were going to beat whoever they played that night honestly...Not a good exscuse...but C'mon....How Vick has been playing this year, other than that saints game they've looked unstoppable on offense...and against some pretty good defenses too...

Vinny
10-04-2006, 11:23 AM
the veer and wishbone are great with a lead too....just don't fall behind. I see Vick as the wishbone QB of the NFL. Tough to stop but if you get a lead he isn't all that.

run-david-run
10-04-2006, 11:33 AM
Vick hasn't thrown for over 200 yards this season, if Im not mistaken, and is a liability in close games. I dont think there is anyway the Falcons make it to a Superbowl with him because they would basically have to have a lead or be within one score the for the entire playoffs.

infantrycak
10-04-2006, 11:34 AM
Wow--kudos to everyone--I thought for sure this thread would devolve somehow.

Kaiser Toro
10-04-2006, 11:39 AM
From todays Chronicle,
David Carr, who grew up in Bakersfield, Calif., more than 900 miles from the closest entry point to the Lone Star State and some 1,600 miles from the Astrodome, wants to make it clear: He does hate the Dallas Cowboys.

Because of this statement I am now a fan of Carr for life. Could this be the return of Carl Mauck? David, please show this hate on the field against the cowgirls.

:logo: :wherewill :logo: :wherewill

Now that is what I am talking about. Good stuff, but can you give me a link.

real
10-04-2006, 11:44 AM
Vick hasn't thrown for over 200 yards this season, if Im not mistaken, and is a liability in close games. I dont think there is anyway the Falcons make it to a Superbowl with him because they would basically have to have a lead or be within one score the for the entire playoffs.

Well thats not really a fair assesment...You are making it seem like Vick is the team...The Falcons have a helluva defense...And You are acting like all he can do is Run...like he's not allowed to pass...He isn't a Manning or Brady or Palmer...But he can pass well enough to keep the defense honest...

jerek
10-04-2006, 11:47 AM
Man, I wish I had had the foresight to see this one coming. :rolleyes:

How you guys watch the same football games I do and thought he sucked for years, never had the chops for this league, was beyond help, bla bla is absolutely beyond me.

I will however echo you when I say it is nice to see him playing this well and yes, he can still be better.

Kaiser Toro
10-04-2006, 11:53 AM
I enjoy watching Vick play. I just do not want him on my team.

lance2112
10-04-2006, 11:53 AM
Now that is what I am talking about. Good stuff, but can you give me a link.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/4234615.html

real
10-04-2006, 11:55 AM
I enjoy watching Vick play. I just do not want him on my team.

I don't know how successful he'd be on another team...that's debatable...but IMO...Vick> the credit he gets...as far as what he does for his team...

Bullpen Drew
10-04-2006, 12:19 PM
what about sacks?

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 12:20 PM
Well thats not really a fair assesment...You are making it seem like Vick is the team...The Falcons have a helluva defense...And You are acting like all he can do is Run...like he's not allowed to pass...He isn't a Manning or Brady or Palmer...But he can pass well enough to keep the defense honest...


That remains to be seen. In all honesty, Vick has had a couple of good passing games & he has won games, but to say the above statement............I don't know if you can say that teams fear his passing. The game plan is pretty simple with him but EXTREMELY hard to execute b/c most teams don't have enough athletes on the field to compete with his athletic ability: contain him running the ball & more often than not he can't beat you with the pass. If you look at all the big games he has lost, the gameplan never changes, just the athletes.

jerek
10-04-2006, 12:20 PM
I don't know how successful he'd be on another team...that's debatable...but IMO...Vick> the credit he gets...as far as what he does for his team...

IMO the opposite is true; he gets more credit and fame than he deserves. He's not a leader, he's not clutch, his ratio of poor decisions to good ones is way too high for my tastes, and he's little more than a glorified running back. His passing numbers have been very average and even when you factor in his running totals, he's still slightly above average at best. He has an elite supporting cast and IMO many times the Falcons win in spite of Vick, not because of him.

I'll grant that he's exciting to watch, but his arm is more of a liability than an asset, and he gets credit for too many wins that are primarily the product of the Falcons' defense and running game (and one of the weakest schedules in the league.)

cuppacoffee
10-04-2006, 12:32 PM
Where is Vick on all of your lists...He's done way more for his team than some of the guys you all are listing..

4 Games

I'll compare Vick to Carr.

-------QBRat-- Comp--- Att--- Pct-- Yds --Y/G ---Y/A --TD --Int
Carr-- 108.9----- 81--- 111--- 73.0- 865 --216.3-- 7.8--- 7---- 2
Vickó--69.8------45----90----50.0--522 --130.5---5.8----3----2


------- Rush---Yds---- Y/G---- Avg--- TD
Carr----14---- -30----- 7.5 -----2.1 ---1
Vick----38-----333-----83.3-----8.8----1


Not even close. :redtowel:

All that running around Vick does, same amount of rushing TDs as Carr.

Vick is averaging more per run than he does per pass. Like the man said, Vick would be a good veer QB.

But then there are those who say statistics mean nothing..:rolleyes:



:coffee:

real
10-04-2006, 12:33 PM
ATL attmepts the fewest passes per game...Less than any other team in the NFL...

Completion percentage is the word of the day...

real
10-04-2006, 12:34 PM
4 Games

I'll compare Vick to Carr.

-------QBRat-- Comp--- Att--- Pct-- Yds --Y/G ---Y/A --TD --Int
Carr-- 108.9----- 81--- 111--- 73.0- 865 --216.3-- 7.8--- 7---- 2
Vick—--69.8------45----90----50.0--522 --130.5---5.8----3----2


------- Rush---Yds---- Y/G---- Avg--- TD
Carr----14---- -30----- 7.5 -----2.1 ---1
Vick----38-----333-----83.3-----8.8----1


Not even close. :redtowel:

All that running around Vick does, same amount of rushing TDs as Carr.

Vick is averaging more per run than he does per pass. Like the man said, Vick would be a good veer QB.

But then there are those who say statistics mean nothing..:rolleyes:


Carr has the best stats in the NFL...Does that mean he's the best QB in the leauge ???

thunderkyss
10-04-2006, 12:34 PM
I would put Carr close to the top 10 based on this year, and how many QB's could you say that with if they had one of the worst lines in the NFL and down two starters? He was one of the few bright lights during our 3 game losing skid and seemes to be getting more comfortable with every game. And of course now we have to wait two weeks to see him play again...i hate you bye week

This I can agree with 100%.

real
10-04-2006, 12:37 PM
The Falcons attempt the fewest passes in the leauge so if you want to look at the numbers go ahead...Vick is ahead of Roethelisberger in comp %...and not far behind...Bledsoe, Plummer, Brady,Favre, McNair...

jerek
10-04-2006, 12:40 PM
The Falcons attempt the fewest passes in the leauge so if you want to look at the numbers go ahead...Vick is ahead of Roethelisberger in comp %...and not far behind...Bledsoe, Plummer, Brady,Favre, McNair...

Other than the aspect that 4 out of 6 of those QBs are clearly struggling this year and 2 are putting up very average performances, you're not making a case for Vick being elite here.

Pass attempts doesn't have a lot of bearing on completion percentage. You can make a case for need for a lot of throws to get into a rhythm, as well as the Falcons not needing to rely on a pass attack with a dominant run game, but that doesn't very well address the idea that Vick is an average at best passer in terms of decision making and ability to deliver the ball. As another measure, Vick is rated 27 in the league in passer rating.

Then again, with Vick as my QB, I'd limit his attempts too.

Dubya
10-04-2006, 12:41 PM
Carr has the best stats in the NFL...Does that mean he's the best QB in the leauge ???

From a completely objective standard, yes it does. But stats don't measure willpower and leadership, and they only marginally measure decision-making abilities and consistency. That's why they have the passer rating formula, to determine which quarterback is technically the best at any given point in the season. But once you factor in the things that can't be measured by stats, I say Carr is obviously not the best quarterback in the league (thought right now he is one of the better ones).

real
10-04-2006, 12:46 PM
Other than the aspect that 4 out of 6 of those QBs are clearly struggling this year and 2 are putting up very average performances, you're not making a case for Vick being elite here.

Pass attempts doesn't have a lot of bearing on completion percentage. You can make a case for need for a lot of throws to get into a rhythm, as well as the Falcons not needing to rely on a pass attack with a dominant run game, but that doesn't very well address the idea that Vick is an average at best passer in terms of decision making and ability to deliver the ball.

Then again, with Vick as my QB, I'd limit his attempts too.

:tease:

What....are....we....talking....about.....????!!!! ????

The only reason that I showed passing stats was to show that they weren't as bad as some may think....

I thought we were discussing QB's helping their teams win....DUHHHH Vick isn't an elite passer...No one ever said that...

I was talking about a QB who helps his team win...not how he does it...The Falcons are 3-1 right now...and Vick had a lot of something to do with that....

Frills
10-04-2006, 12:48 PM
Talking about statistics only

I cut Vick on my fantasy team and now rotate Grossman, Frye, and Carr based on matchups. Vick will have an awesome game, then will kill you the next, add in the fact he has yet to complete season he doesn't make the top 10

cuppacoffee
10-04-2006, 12:48 PM
ATL attmepts the fewest passes per game...Less than any other team in the NFL...

Completion percentage is the word of the day...

45----90----50.0 Wow, that will knock your socks off.
Try 180 passes and complete 90...still 50%.


Carr has the best stats in the NFL...Does that mean he's the best QB in the leauge ???

Changing directions are we?

Better than Vick, and that's who we were discussing.

Atl. would be better served with Vick at WR or KR.

You have your opinion, which will not change, and I have mine, which will not change..:D

:coffee:

jerek
10-04-2006, 12:49 PM
:tease:

What....are....we....talking....about.....????!!!! ????

The only reason that I brought showed passing stats was to show that they weren't as bad as some may think....

I thought we were discussing QB's helping their teams win....DUHHHH Vick isn't an elite passer...No one ever said that...

I was talking about a QB who helps his team win...not how he does it...The Falcons are 3-1 right now...and Vick had a lot of something to do with that....

LOL and I disagree, but okay, fair enough. I think you could put just about QB behind center for the Falcons and okay, yes, you're losing Vick's running ability and the advantage you gain when the opposing D has to scheme for it, but you're probably going to be gaining a more legitimate pass threat. The ball always moves faster through the air than it does on the ground in someone's hands, and Vick just doesn't reliably and accurately move the ball through the air. IMO saying that Vick "had a lot of something to do with [winning]" is just incorrect; both Vick's numbers and the Falcons' running game and defense back that up, as well as my general observations of his game performance, especially against elite D's or in clutch moments.

real
10-04-2006, 12:52 PM
You all can twist the stats all you want to...Vick's passing numbers aren't as high as some others because like I said...the falcons are dead last in attempts/game...But his completion percentage is relatively close to some of the QB's in the leauge who you all consider to be elite passers...BUT that wasn't the point...I know Vick isn't a top notched passer...My point was that he can pass well enough to keep defenses honest...He passes well enough to keep his offense moving......He passes well enough to Win....But You all turned it into a passing argument...THAT wasn't the point....I was talking about QB's Helping their teams Win and If you want to deny that Vick is top 12 at that go ahead....Im not going to argue with any of you about that....

real
10-04-2006, 12:56 PM
LOL and I disagree, but okay, fair enough. I think you could put just about QB behind center for the Falcons and okay, yes, you're losing Vick's running ability and the advantage you gain when the opposing D has to scheme for it, but you're probably going to be gaining a more legitimate pass threat. The ball always moves faster through the air than it does on the ground in someone's hands, and Vick just doesn't reliably and accurately move the ball through the air. IMO saying that Vick "had a lot of something to do with [winning]" is just incorrect; both Vick's numbers and the Falcons' running game and defense back that up, as well as my general observations of his game performance, especially against elite D's or in clutch moments.

Your arguments are based on hyptheticals and guesses....Lets talk about facts....What you are saying means that Carr could take Peytons spot, and the colts would actually be better....PUHHHLEEEEZZZ......Is Vick not part of the running game....You all are severely missing the boat....You all keep talking about Vick as if he is a seperate entitiy from his team, and his teams stats.....

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 12:58 PM
You all can twist the stats all you want to...Vick's passing numbers aren't as high as some others because like I said...the falcons are dead last in attempts/game...But his completion percentage is relatively close to some of the QB's in the leauge who you all consider to be elite passers...BUT that wasn't the point...I know Vick isn't a top notched passer...My point was that he can pass well enough to keep defenses honest...He passes well enough to keep his offense moving......He passes well enough to Win....But You all turned it into a passing argument...THAT wasn't the point....I was talking about QB's Helping their teams Win and If you want to deny that Vick is top 12 at that go ahead....Im not going to argue with any of you about that....

You want to know why Vicks numbers don't correlate to his teams victories? Step up to the chalkboard son and I'll give you a little lesson, it's called defense. The Falcons have a top 10 defense. This is why they have a good record, not because of Vick. Your homework assignments will be due next week class.

infantrycak
10-04-2006, 01:01 PM
Where is Vick on all of your lists...He's done way more for his team than some of the guys you all are listing..

He is #1 on my list at his position--RB who sometimes throws the ball.

SBTexans08
10-04-2006, 01:03 PM
Considering we have NO run game, thus making it harder to air it out, being more susceptible to sacks and INTs....Carr's doing a good job. I won't praise him too much. I want to see more out of him, but as I mentioned, considering those factors....he's doing good. If those factors were eliminated, he'd be doing better IMHO. I give the guy kudos on a job well done. You really can't do much without a run game and a questionable O-line that's been dinged up this early in the season.

If he can keep this up, next year looks very promising depending on what comes to be at the RB position and the run game.

infantrycak
10-04-2006, 01:04 PM
ATL attmepts the fewest passes per game...Less than any other team in the NFL...

Completion percentage is the word of the day...

Well then you said both halves--they don't pass often because they don't have to but when they do Vick has a very poor completion %.

real
10-04-2006, 01:04 PM
You want to know why Vicks numbers don't correlate to his teams victories? Step up to the chalkboard son and I'll give you a little lesson, it's called defense. The Falcons have a top 10 defense. This is why they have a good record, not because of Vick. Your homework assignments will be due next week class.

How'd I know youd disagree with me....

So because They have a good defense that garauntees them wins...

They have played Carolina and Tampa...Two teams with good defenses as well...

In the Carolina game Delhomme attempted almost twenty more passes than Vick and ammassed a whopping 40 yards more....whoopie!!!

Try again....

real
10-04-2006, 01:05 PM
He is #1 on my list at his position--RB who sometimes throws the ball.

You can call it what you want....

real
10-04-2006, 01:07 PM
Well then you said both halves--they don't pass often because they don't have to but when they do Vick has a very poor completion %.

Well if thats poor....Bledsoe, Plummer, Brady,Favre, McNair aren't far behind....and he is ahead of Roethelisberger...

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 01:09 PM
They have played Carolina and Tampa...Two teams with good defenses as well...

In the Carolina game Delhomme attempted almost twenty more passes than Vick and ammassed a whopping 40 yards more....whoopie!!!

Try again....

LOL, Carolina's defense is ranked 22, Tampa Bays is ranked 19th. I guess that is good in your world. We seem to have major differences in what you call "good", so yes, I tend to disagree with you. Now run along students.

infantrycak
10-04-2006, 01:10 PM
Well if thats poor....Bledsoe, Plummer, Brady,Favre, McNair aren't far behind....and he is ahead of Roethelisberger...

C'mon--you know outside of this discussion 50% is very poor and the jump from 50% to 60% isn't some small gap. 60% is hitting a benchmark--50% is hitting the bench unless you are in an obvious slump or can run like Vick.

TexansLucky13
10-04-2006, 01:10 PM
He is #1 on my list at his position--RB who sometimes throws the ball.

:thumbup Agreed. I would rather have Charlie Frye than Mike Vick any day of the week.

I have to say, though.... Vick is awesome on Madden. I guess that is just because I can make his passing accuracy better just by playing good. Too bad it won't happen like that in real life.

P.S. - David rocks. I've said it for years....

real
10-04-2006, 01:11 PM
People...I know Vick isn't an elite passer...No ish sherlock.....

The discussion was QB's who help THEIR teams win...So therefore you can't say well if the Falcons had...(fill in the blank)...That is totally irrelevant...And you can't prove that argument...That is a hypothetical...

real
10-04-2006, 01:13 PM
LOL, Carolina's defense is ranked 22, Tampa Bays is ranked 19th. I guess that is good in your world. We seem to have major differences in what you call "good", so yes, I tend to disagree with you. Now run along students.

And THE Oakland Raiders are ranked 9th....Way to use stats to back up your point...

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 01:13 PM
People...I know Vick isn't an elite passer...No ish sherlock.....

The discussion was QB's who help THEIR teams win...So therefore you can't say well if the Falcons had...(fill in the blank)...That is totally irrelevant...And you can't prove that argument...That is a hypothetical...

IMO, I Think they'd win more in the long run if they started Schaub.

TexansLucky13
10-04-2006, 01:14 PM
People...I know Vick isn't an elite passer...No ish sherlock.....

The discussion was QB's who help THEIR teams win...So therefore you can't say well if the Falcons had...(fill in the blank)...That is totally irrelevant...And you can't prove that argument...That is a hypothetical...

If you are trying to say that Mike Vick is a typical Falcon, I would agree. J. Mora has done an awesome job finding the fastest guys in the league to put into that defense and offense. Vick is a speedy dude.

As far as leadership, personal life and QB ability go.... I would choose his backup... Matt Schaub. I think he would play so much better than Vick and do a lot more for that team. He has proved it, too.

real
10-04-2006, 01:16 PM
C'mon--you know outside of this discussion 50% is very poor and the jump from 50% to 60% isn't some small gap. 60% is hitting a benchmark--50% is hitting the bench unless you are in an obvious slump or can run like Vick.

Not one of the QB's that I named have 60% completion %...McNabb doesn't even have 60% completion...not far from it with 59%....But on the list I named the highest completion % is 57%....

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 01:17 PM
If you are trying to say that Mike Vick is a typical Falcon, I would agree. J. Mora has done an awesome job finding the fastest guys in the league to put into that defense and offense. Vick is a speedy dude.

As far as leadership, personal life and QB ability go.... I would choose his backup... Matt Schaub. I think he would play so much better than Vick and do a lot more for that team. He has proved it, too.

I agree. If given the reps he looks like he'd be a very capable passer. There's no amount of running that can substitute for a good passing game.

thunderkyss
10-04-2006, 01:19 PM
You all can twist the stats all you want to...Vick's passing numbers aren't as high as some others because like I said...the falcons are dead last in attempts/game...But his completion percentage is relatively close to some of the QB's in the leauge who you all consider to be elite passers...BUT that wasn't the point...I know Vick isn't a top notched passer...My point was that he can pass well enough to keep defenses honest...He passes well enough to keep his offense moving......He passes well enough to Win....But You all turned it into a passing argument...THAT wasn't the point....I was talking about QB's Helping their teams Win and If you want to deny that Vick is top 12 at that go ahead....Im not going to argue with any of you about that....

Bottom line, with Vick in the line up, the Falcons are a play-off contender. Without him, they look like the Cardinals. Maybe they'll make a run....... maybe we spoke too soon.

But I would still have a hard time putting Vick on any top ten QB list. He may very well be the best player in the game, but we all have a definition of what a QB is in the NFL. Winning games or not, Vick doesn't fit that description.

And while I enjoy watching the kid play, I wouldn't trade last years David Carr for him.

real
10-04-2006, 01:20 PM
IMO, I Think they'd win more in the long run if they started Schaub.

I would choose his backup... Matt Schaub. I think he would play so much better than Vick and do a lot more for that team. He has proved it, too.


Like I said...Both of you are stating what if's...coulda...shoulda...woulda....I think The Texans would win more if we had Peyton Mannin...Or McNabb...by the way neither are close to Carrs completion %.......

Your not saying much....I think the Texans Would Win if we had everybody on the colts...

See you can do that all day...doesn't mean anything....

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 01:24 PM
Like I said...Both of you are stating what if's...coulda...shoulda...woulda....I think The Texans would win more if we had Peyton Mannin...Or McNabb...by the way neither are close to Carrs completion %.......

Your not saying much....I think the Texans Would Win if we had everybody on the colts...

See you can do that all day...doesn't mean anything....

The diff. is that the falcons actually have this kid on their roster & IMO he's already proven he is a more capable passer than Vick. Stop over-simplifying things.

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 01:24 PM
And THE Oakland Raiders are ranked 9th....Way to use stats to back up your point...

Here is another stat. Tampa Bay is 0-3, Carolina is 2-2, thats 2-5, losing records. Vick did well against teams with losing records and below average defenses, this is just a fact.

real
10-04-2006, 01:24 PM
Bottom line, with Vick in the line up, the Falcons are a play-off contender. Without him, they look like the Cardinals.
But I would still have a hard time putting Vick on any top ten QB list. He may very well be the best player in the game, but we all have a definition of what a QB is in the NFL. Winning games or not, Vick doesn't fit that description.


Passer wise...no he isn't top ten...he isn't even top 32...there are backups that pass better than Vick...

But once again that wasn't the point...

The point was How Vick's Skill set relates to the Falcons....and how they Win...

Maybe I can make this more clear...

Delhomme is a better QB than Vick....Brett Favre is a better QB than Vick...and if they were on the Falcons I even think they'd be better...

But right now...Vick is doing more for his team than Delhomme or Favre are doing for their respective teams....

TexansLucky13
10-04-2006, 01:26 PM
Like I said...Both of you are stating what if's...coulda...shoulda...woulda....I think The Texans would win more if we had Peyton Mannin...Or McNabb...by the way neither are close to Carrs completion %.......

Your not saying much....I think the Texans Would Win if we had everybody on the colts...

See you can do that all day...doesn't mean anything....

I am arguing with the same amount of substance that you are.

You say that Vick does "so much" for that team. Prove it! Show me some FACTS that prove that. The only facts we have are that Vick has 330 rushing yards and below average passing stats.

My argument is that I "believe" that Schaub would be a better QB than Vick. Your argument is that you "believe" Vick is doing something for that team other than being a scrambling below-average QB. Describe your argument, please.

real
10-04-2006, 01:26 PM
Here is another stat. Tampa Bay is 0-3, Carolina is 2-2, thats 2-5, losing records. Vick did well against teams with losing records and below average defenses, this is just a fact.

LMAO!!! Every team that has a winning record right now at some point beat a bad team smart arse...What's your point???

jerek
10-04-2006, 01:27 PM
Your arguments are based on hyptheticals and guesses....Lets talk about facts....What you are saying means that Carr could take Peytons spot, and the colts would actually be better....PUHHHLEEEEZZZ......Is Vick not part of the running game....You all are severely missing the boat....You all keep talking about Vick as if he is a seperate entitiy from his team, and his teams stats.....

Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strengths. I don't know where you even began to infer that I was stating Carr replacing Manning would make the Colts better. We are speaking in hypotheticals and opinions to begin with since your assertion that Vick played a big part in the Falcons' winning certainly isn't backed up by his league basement passing numbers.

In any event you have admitted before that you enjoy perpetuating arguments and it seems clear to me that that is all you are doing here. If anyone else has a question or a comment re: my post then feel free to submit it.

real
10-04-2006, 01:28 PM
I am arguing with the same amount of substance that you are.

You say that Vick does "so much" for that team. Prove it! Show me some FACTS that prove that. The only facts we have are that Vick has 330 rushing yards and below average QB stats.

My argument is that I "believe" that Schaub would be a better QB than Vick. Your argument is that you "believe" Vick is doing something for that team other than being a scrambling below-average QB. Describe your argument, please.

No you can just go back and read the rest of the thread...and you will see I answered everything you just stated....next....

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 01:29 PM
LMAO!!! Every team that has a winning record right now at some point beat a bad team smart arse...What's your point???sorry, I can't help you anymore, I've put the smackdown on you with facts, you've got nothing really.

Oh, and guess which team has the 3rd best RB in the league right now? You guessed it class, the Atlanta Falcons. Yet another reason the Falcons are doing well, not because of Vick.

real
10-04-2006, 01:30 PM
Reading comprehension doesn't seem to be one of your strengths. I don't know where you even began to infer that I was stating Carr replacing Manning would make the Colts better. We are speaking in hypotheticals to begin with since your assertion that Vick played a big part in the Falcons' winning certainly isn't backed up by his stats.

In any event you have admitted before that you enjoy perpetuating arguments and it seems clear to me that that is all you are doing here. If anyone else has a question or a comment re: my post then feel free to submit it.

Jerek if you want to talk smack and get personal I can just PM you my number and we can have at it...I didn't say anything personal towards you and everything has been football related...I don't care to discuss anything otherwise...thankyou...

TexansLucky13
10-04-2006, 01:31 PM
No you can just go back and read the rest of the thread...and you will see I answered everything you just stated....next....

I re-read everything and all I found was a bunch of nothing. You have not tried to argue any point at all. All you do is defend Vicks below-average stats.

I ask again.... describe your argument. I am tired of reading nothing but hogwash.

kcwilson
10-04-2006, 01:31 PM
Talking about statistics only

I cut Vick on my fantasy team and now rotate Grossman, Frye, and Carr based on matchups. Vick will have an awesome game, then will kill you the next, add in the fact he has yet to complete season he doesn't make the top 10

Breaking news from ESPN...

Mora the Junior has just decided to release Michael Vick due to the overwhleming consensus that Vick is not a good fantasy quarterback week to week.

How does someone's fantasy value weigh into this discussion?

Vick is a different type of QB and the fact that Atlanta averages 234 yards per game on the ground is a huge testament to the type of game they try and play. Grind it out, eat up clock and yardage. It is fantastic when it works, but tough to come from behind... that is who the Atlanta Falcons have defined themselves to be as a football team...

Vick has an impressive W-L and is a valuable QB, just not the prototype QB.

real
10-04-2006, 01:34 PM
sorry, I can't help you anymore, I've put the smackdown on you with facts, you've got nothing really.

Oh, and guess which team has the 3rd best RB in the league right now? You guessed it class, the Atlanta Falcons. Yet another reason the Falcons are doing well, not because of Vick.

I never once said that the Falcons are winning BECAUSE of any specific player....so if thats what you took it as...that was your first mistake...I was comparing and contrasting what Vick does for his team compared to how other QB's are helping their teams...

thunderkyss
10-04-2006, 01:34 PM
But right now...Vick is doing more for his team than Delhomme or Favre are doing for their respective teams....

Hey, I'm with you, and I understand exactly what you are saying. You are absolutely correct. & anyone thinking Shaub would do better than Vick, needs to apply for a job with several teams this coming offseason, since they are better talent scouts than DanReeves & the little Mora guy.

The only thing I'm not with you on, is putting him on the top ten QB list. You pretty much have to throw away every measurable we have, and have used for years when "measuring" QBs, and use nothing but Wins....... to judge QBs, when there is more to a teams W-L record than who their QB is.

Shaub is a good example of that. Yeah, he's got skills, and he can play the game. But that team was built to run, from QB to WR..... Shaub will not, and has not been as successfull as Vick on the same team.

jerek
10-04-2006, 01:35 PM
Jerek if you want to talk smack and get personal I can just PM you my number and we can have at it...I didn't say anything personal towards you and everything has been football related...I don't care to discuss anything otherwise...thankyou...

Lighten up. I'll let this one go for now as it's going nowhere. No hard feelings; I'd make it a lot more emphatic if I meant any ill will toward you or anyone else here.

real
10-04-2006, 01:35 PM
I re-read everything and all I found was a bunch of nothing. You have not tried to argue any point at all. All you do is defend Vicks below-average stats.

I ask again.... describe your argument. I am tired of reading nothing but hogwash.

Well that's not really my problem...Im not going to restate what I've already said...and I don't even know what you are arguing with me about...

infantrycak
10-04-2006, 01:35 PM
Everyone needs to simmer down.

TexansLucky13
10-04-2006, 01:37 PM
Well that's not really my problem...Im not going to restate what I've already said...and I don't even know what you are arguing with me about...

You haven't stated anything.

I'm simmerin', Cak.

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 01:38 PM
.I was comparing and contrasting what Vick does for his team compared to how other QB's are helping their teams...And that is why is his not a top 10 QB, he has a great defense and a great running game behind him, yet his passing stats aren't great. He runs good though, but has as many TD's as Carr in the running game. Take away those tangibles and Vick just doesn't measure up.

real
10-04-2006, 01:39 PM
Hey, I'm with you, and I understand exactly what you are saying. You are absolutely correct. & anyone thinking Shaub would do better than Vick, needs to apply for a job with several teams this coming offseason, since they are better talent scouts than DanReeves & the little Mora guy.

The only thing I'm not with you on, is putting him on the top ten QB list. You pretty much have to throw away every measurable we have, and have used for years when "measuring" QBs, and use nothing but Wins....... to judge QBs, when there is more to a teams W-L record than who their QB is.

Shaub is a good example of that. Yeah, he's got skills, and he can play the game. But that team was built to run, from QB to WR..... Shaub will not, and has not been as successfull as Vick on the same team.


Well we aren't really saying anything different....I don't think Vick is a top 32 QB in the leauge.....as far a skills is concerened...That is what I have been saying...

Im just saying as far as a QB helping his team put w's on the board he is doing that...he may not be doing it conventionally...but he is definitely helping his team...he is a top 5 rusher...if that isn't helping your team I don't know what is...

real
10-04-2006, 01:42 PM
And that is why is his not a top 10 QB, he has a great defense and a great running game behind him, yet his passing stats aren't great. He runs good though, but has as many TD's as Carr in the running game. Take away those tangibles and Vick just doesn't measure up.

once again...his passing % isn't as far off from some of the better QB's in the leauge...

The Falcons attempt THE FEWEST passes in the leauge per game...so do you expect him to have as many completions and yards as others?? Thats not what he does...he is a top 5 rusher....thats what he does, and right now he is doing it well.....and what do the stats have to do with this discussion anyways??? D.Carr's stats are better than Manning's...Is D.Carr doing more for his team than Manning is ???

TexansLucky13
10-04-2006, 01:43 PM
Is D.Carr doing more for his team than Manning is ???

Absolutely. Ask Peyton how big his salary is. :ok:

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 01:45 PM
D.Carr's stats are better than Manning's...Is D.Carr doing more for his team than Manning is ???Absolutely Carr is, no running game, no defense. Absolutely Carr is doing better for his team than Manning is.

real
10-04-2006, 01:45 PM
Take away those tangibles and Vick just doesn't measure up.


Wha?? Huh?? is that really fair ?? To take away his strongest points...and then compare him to everyone else???

thunderkyss
10-04-2006, 01:46 PM
Breaking news from ESPN...

Mora the Junior has just decided to release Michael Vick due to the overwhleming consensus that Vick is not a good fantasy quarterback week to week.

How does someone's fantasy value weigh into this discussion?

Vick is a different type of QB and the fact that Atlanta averages 234 yards per game on the ground is a huge testament to the type of game they try and play. Grind it out, eat up clock and yardage. It is fantastic when it works, but tough to come from behind... that is who the Atlanta Falcons have defined themselves to be as a football team...

Vick has an impressive W-L and is a valuable QB, just not the prototype QB.


That's more or less it. You get that kind of run production out of Pittman & Cadillac, then throw Chris Simms into the mix, and everybody is talking about that awesome running game, & the QB that manages the game with poor passing numbers.

RickyWilliams, RonnieBrown, and BobGriese, and we want to send them to the SuperBowl.......

MichaelVick plays the part of Simms & Pittman, or Griese & RonnieBrown, I don't understand how anyone can say they are winning in spite of him.

real
10-04-2006, 01:46 PM
Absolutely. Ask Peyton how big his salary is. :ok:

Absolutely Carr is, no running game, no defense. Absolutely Carr is doing better for his team than Manning is.

Well if you two think that Carr is doing more for the Texans than Manning is doing for the Colts..........:tease: .....This one is done........

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 01:46 PM
Hey, I'm with you, and I understand exactly what you are saying. You are absolutely correct. & anyone thinking Shaub would do better than Vick, needs to apply for a job with several teams this coming offseason, since they are better talent scouts than DanReeves & the little Mora guy.

The only thing I'm not with you on, is putting him on the top ten QB list. You pretty much have to throw away every measurable we have, and have used for years when "measuring" QBs, and use nothing but Wins....... to judge QBs, when there is more to a teams W-L record than who their QB is.

Shaub is a good example of that. Yeah, he's got skills, and he can play the game. But that team was built to run, from QB to WR..... Shaub will not, and has not been as successfull as Vick on the same team.

Well then maybe we should, b/c if they were built to run they've already got PLENTY of capable runners back there & on the bench. Why does the QB need to run? I would think that making sure that you have a sound passing game is next on the list & IMO Schaub brings that.

real
10-04-2006, 01:48 PM
That's more or less it. You get that kind of run production out of Pittman & Cadillac, then throw Chris Simms into the mix, and everybody is talking about that awesome running game, & the QB that manages the game with poor passing numbers.

RickyWilliams, RonnieBrown, and BobGriese, and we want to send them to the SuperBowl.......

MichaelVick plays the part of Simms & Pittman, or Griese & RonnieBrown, I don't understand how anyone can say they are winning in spite of him.


OMG....THAT is exactly what I'm sayin....

TexansLucky13
10-04-2006, 01:48 PM
Well if you two think that Carr is doing more for the Texans than Manning is doing for the Colts..........:tease: .....This one is done........

Ignorance is bliss. I guess you don't play fantasy football either.

real
10-04-2006, 01:49 PM
Well then maybe we should, b/c if they were built to run they've already got PLENTY of capable runners back there & on the bench. Why does the QB need to run? I would think that making sure that you have a sound passing game is next on the list & IMO Schaub brings that.

LMAO...now you are arguing philosophies...that needs to be discussed with Jim Mora....

Texian
10-04-2006, 01:50 PM
If you like David's play now you are going to love it in the second half of the season.

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 01:55 PM
LMAO...now you are arguing philosophies...that needs to be discussed with Jim Mora....

I'm not arguing Philosophies, hell he's won on the NFL level & I haven't, but can you honestly say that they are winning due to his coaching or b/c of the unbelievable talent on the field? Plus he hasn't won anything, with his Philosophy so maybe he ought to change it.

titan hater
10-04-2006, 02:17 PM
Like the man said, Vick would be a good veer QB.



I think he would be a great running back...But never a great QB...

thunderkyss
10-04-2006, 02:17 PM
Well then maybe we should, b/c if they were built to run they've already got PLENTY of capable runners back there & on the bench. Why does the QB need to run? I would think that making sure that you have a sound passing game is next on the list & IMO Schaub brings that.

you can do that if you want...... in Madden '07.

Them boys in Atlanta think they are going to the NFC Championship game this year, because of #7(is that Vick's number??)

They don't have time to waste on training a QB.

TexansLucky13
10-04-2006, 02:19 PM
you can do that if you want...... in Madden '07.

Them boys in Atlanta think they are going to the NFC Championship game this year, because of #7(is that Vick's number??)

They don't have time to waste on training a QB.

Confusion continues in the ATL.

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 02:28 PM
you can do that if you want...... in Madden '07.

Them boys in Atlanta think they are going to the NFC Championship game this year, because of #7(is that Vick's number??)

They don't have time to waste on training a QB.

I don't know why considering they went nowhere last year & have a tough schedule/division. Also you really think that Schaub would need that much training?

edo783
10-04-2006, 02:53 PM
TXRoalty(sp) is correct IMO. Vick has done more for his team as a PLAYER, but not as a QB, rather as a playmaker (isn't that what Bush is supposed to be). No way is Vick a top 10 QB, but he makes things happen. IMO, ATL would be better off with Schaub at QB, but only if they kept Vick in the game and used him as sort of a slot playmaker who also gets the ball and runs with it and maybe even chucks an option pass or two.

jerek
10-04-2006, 02:56 PM
you can do that if you want...... in Madden '07.

Them boys in Atlanta think they are going to the NFC Championship game this year, because of #7(is that Vick's number??)

They don't have time to waste on training a QB.

Despite his obvious defiencies, Vick clearly has more potential, and is being paid a lot more. As has been pointed out he's a sufficiently competent passer in terms of the expectations for an NFL starting QB (albeit lower echelon) and his running game/total yardage production means he still gets the nod until he really blows it. No coach will sit his Franchise Face of the NFL QB for someone named Matt Schaub unless Vick really screws up, and coaches are hesitant to tamper with a winning formula, period. To date he hasn't screwed up enough to make that happen.

I certainly don't know if Schaub would make the Falcons a better team; I haven't seen nearly enough of his play to make that judgment call. As far as DC or Vick, I'd take DC in a heartbeat.

Mr teX
10-04-2006, 03:07 PM
yeah i suppose he's right (Xroy.X) but Scaub is 1 of maybe 3 QB's on the bench that could start for someone, so i think he'd be a great fit. Of course Mora won't sit him, b/c as you said he hasn't screwed up enough + the fans love him, not to mention his salary. But IMO if i had to pick between VICK, Schaub & DC, it goes in this order:

DC
Schaub
Vick

infantrycak
10-04-2006, 03:09 PM
I certainly don't know if Schaub would make the Falcons a better team; I haven't seen nearly enough of his play to make that judgment call. As far as DC or Vick, I'd take DC in a heartbeat.

Think about what edo suggested. Schaub comes in as a more traditional good judgment, make all the throws, higher % guy which makes the D's back off the running game. Vick comes in as an offensive weapon lining up all over ala Reggie Bush. D's still have to account for him, extra planning, mismatches--heck he is bigger and faster than either Dunn or Bush--plus every pitchout becomes a much more legitimate passing threat than any half back pass around. That's how Schaub would make the Falcons better--not eliminating Vick but by letting Vick concentrate more on what he does best and less on what he does worst.

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 03:11 PM
Wha?? Huh?? is that really fair ?? To take away his strongest points...and then compare him to everyone else???
If his strongest points are having the 3rd best running back in the league, and a top 10 defense, then that shows you how much this teams record is attributed to Vick.

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 03:21 PM
once again...his passing % isn't as far off from some of the better QB's in the leauge...

Man the more I disect your comments the more you come on out looking bad.

Vicks passing % is 50. He's closer to the bottom of the league than he is to the top. He closer to Kerry Collins and Vince Young. BWAAA! He also ranks in in the 20's in QB Passer Rating, care to guess where he stands in TD's? ROFLMAO, this is a pathetic argument.

real
10-04-2006, 03:22 PM
Think about what edo suggested. Schaub comes in as a more traditional good judgment, make all the throws, higher % guy which makes the D's back off the running game. Vick comes in as an offensive weapon lining up all over ala Reggie Bush. D's still have to account for him, extra planning, mismatches--heck he is bigger and faster than either Dunn or Bush--plus every pitchout becomes a much more legitimate passing threat than any half back pass around. That's how Schaub would make the Falcons better--not eliminating Vick but by letting Vick concentrate more on what he does best and less on what he does worst.

That would be sick...

real
10-04-2006, 03:26 PM
Man the more I disect your comments the more you come on out looking bad.

Vicks passing % is 50. He's closer to the bottom of the league than he is to the top. He closer to Kerry Collins and Vince Young. BWAAA! He also ranks in in the 20's in QB Passer Rating, care to guess where he stands in TD's? ROFLMAO, this is a pathetic argument.

Why don't you look at who else is around that range...Instead of picking guys like Collins and young...look at Brady, Roethlisberger(Who vick is ahead of)....Im not going to go through that again....If you think his completion percentage is way off from some of the better passer's in the leauge ....o.k....I say it isn't....If you would just look at some of the names that are in the 50-57 % range you would see.....

edit: forget it I'll just post it so everyone can see...

thunderkyss
10-04-2006, 03:27 PM
Think about what edo suggested. Schaub comes in as a more traditional good judgment, make all the throws, higher % guy which makes the D's back off the running game. Vick comes in as an offensive weapon lining up all over ala Reggie Bush. D's still have to account for him, extra planning, mismatches--heck he is bigger and faster than either Dunn or Bush--plus every pitchout becomes a much more legitimate passing threat than any half back pass around. That's how Schaub would make the Falcons better--not eliminating Vick but by letting Vick concentrate more on what he does best and less on what he does worst.

I can see that.... can Vick run patterns & catch??

heck, even as a Running back in the pro set.... that could be pretty exciting football.

real
10-04-2006, 03:33 PM
Completion Percentage

Donovan McNabb PHI 59.4
Jake Delhomme CAR 57.7
Brett Favre GB 56.7
Steve McNair BAL 55.7
Tom Brady NE 54.1
Drew Bledsoe DAL 52.7
Jake Plummer DEN 51.2
Michael Vick ATL 50.0
Ben Roethlisberger PIT 49.3

Havefun with those stats SES...
http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/QB-PASSING/2006/regular?&_1:col_1=7

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 03:41 PM
Why don't you look at who else is around that range...Instead of picking guys like Collins and young...look at Brady, Roethlisberger(Who vick is ahead of)....Im not going to go through that again....If you think his completion percentage is way off from some of the better passer's in the leauge ....o.k....I say it isn't....If you would just look at some of the names that are in the 50-57 % range you would see.....

edit: forget it I'll just post it so everyone can see...

Here is the correct list, nice try, but weak.

Brett Favre GB 56.7
Steve McNair BAL 55.7
Alex Smith 55.6
Chris Simms TB 54.7
Tom Brady NE 54.1
Drew Bledsoe DAL 52.7
Jake Plummer DEN 51.2
Michael Vick ATL 50.0
Seneca Wallace SEA 50.0
Ben Roethlisberger PIT 49.3
Kerry Collins TEN 46.7
Vince Young TEN 45.3
Aaron Brooks OAK 42.9


I see a couple of good QB's in the bunch that for the most part have explainable issues (Farve is old, Brady has no receivers...etc), but Vick looks be on par with his 53% career passing percentage. He's playing at his level, which is below average amongst QB's in the NFL. OUCH these zingers just sting!

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 03:46 PM
Completion Percentage

Donovan McNabb PHI 59.4
Jake Delhomme CAR 57.7
Brett Favre GB 56.7
Steve McNair BAL 55.7
Tom Brady NE 54.1
Drew Bledsoe DAL 52.7
Jake Plummer DEN 51.2
Michael Vick ATL 50.0
Ben Roethlisberger PIT 49.3

Havefun with those stats SES...
http://www.nfl.com/stats/playersort/NFL/QB-PASSING/2006/regular?&_1:col_1=7

LOL, and every one of those QB's that you listed has a better career passing percentage than Vick. Keep it coming, you are getting owned!:crutch:

real
10-04-2006, 03:53 PM
LOL, and every one of those QB's that you listed has a better career passing percentage than Vick. Keep it coming, you are getting owned!:crutch:

You win SES....Vick does nothing for his team....

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 04:16 PM
You win SES....Vick does nothing for his team....

:hunter: ...another one bites the dust. :hunter:

texasguy346
10-04-2006, 04:53 PM
TXRoalty(sp) is correct IMO. Vick has done more for his team as a PLAYER, but not as a QB, rather as a playmaker (isn't that what Bush is supposed to be). No way is Vick a top 10 QB, but he makes things happen. IMO, ATL would be better off with Schaub at QB, but only if they kept Vick in the game and used him as sort of a slot playmaker who also gets the ball and runs with it and maybe even chucks an option pass or two.

That is a very interesting idea you put forth. You could line Vick up in the slot if the corner plays off of him Schaub could swing out a quick pass to him behind the LOS & Vick could either run with the ball or throw it downfield to another receiver. It would definately give defensive coordinators plenty to think about at night.

Another option that Atlanta could consider is switching QBs in and out & sometimes keeping both in at the same time. They're already using an option attack so why not bring in another page torn from a college playbook. It would keep the defense on their toes. Ordinarily the defense tries to keep Vick contained, but when Schaub was in they'd be more focused on getting to the QB. Can you imagine the look on a coaches face on plays where he sees both Schaub and Vick in the huddle? Even failing that they should at least seriously consider bringing Schaub into a game in place of Vick if they find themselves well behind the other team. The offense Vick is running isn't going to do much for you once your team falls behind a couple of touchdowns or more, but with Schaub in there you have more of a pure passer who can lead your team on quicker scoring drives to get back into the game & give you a legitimate shot of coming from behind to win.

DocBar
10-04-2006, 05:38 PM
You all can twist the stats all you want to...Vick's passing numbers aren't as high as some others because like I said...the falcons are dead last in attempts/game...But his completion percentage is relatively close to some of the QB's in the leauge who you all consider to be elite passers...BUT that wasn't the point...I know Vick isn't a top notched passer...My point was that he can pass well enough to keep defenses honest...He passes well enough to keep his offense moving......He passes well enough to Win....But You all turned it into a passing argument...THAT wasn't the point....I was talking about QB's Helping their teams Win and If you want to deny that Vick is top 12 at that go ahead....Im not going to argue with any of you about that....

You surprise me with your defense of Vick. He is an absolutely horrible NFL QB. I've watched several Falcon games and he passes well enough to keep the offense moving off the field after a punt. If he doesn't get it done with his legs, he can't get it done. The Falcons are 3-1 against an easy schedule and that's mostly thanks to the defense. Vick is popular because he is easy to market and an amazing athlete. That doesn't translate to good QB. If he were on my team, he'd be returning kicks and doing his Reggie Bush imitation.

real
10-04-2006, 05:50 PM
Im done with this argument Doc...have at it with someone else

DocBar
10-04-2006, 06:01 PM
Im done with this argument Doc...have at it with someone else...
awwwww man. Can we have our stats arguement again? LOL

real
10-04-2006, 06:53 PM
Out of all the comments I made in this thread...someone leaves me a negative rep for this comment:

Im done with this argument Doc...have at it with someone else...

And then their remarks were: "what a wuss"....and yet they didn't leave their name....

IRONIC.

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 07:14 PM
that's funny, I just got the same rep. Not so ironic.

But really, there is nothing more to argue about.

infantrycak
10-04-2006, 07:19 PM
Aah--y'all can have a moment like in Ses' avatar. None of us will look--trust me.

SESupergenius
10-04-2006, 07:22 PM
Aah--y'all can have a moment like in Ses' avatar. None of us will look--trust me.

He completes me.

texasguy346
10-04-2006, 07:30 PM
that's funny, I just got the same rep. Not so ironic.

But really, there is nothing more to argue about.

Oh wow. Great avatar. I'd give you rep for it but apparently I've got to spread some more around before giving it to you again. I'd use that as a wallpaper on my cell phone if I could.

texan_fan_in_tampa_bay
10-04-2006, 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by cuppacoffee
Like the man said, Vick would be a good veer QB.


They should have made Mike Vick a wide receiver, like Matt Jones.

dat_boy_yec
10-04-2006, 08:33 PM
I think Carr does more for our team then Vick does for his team. I might go as far as saying Carr does more for his team than Manning does for his team. Why do I say that, look at the talent around all these QB's. Atlanta has Gibbs coaching that line. So regardless of how many yds. Vick gained the running game would always be solid. Add to that that Atl. has a top 10 D that keeps them in the game. How many game's would Atl. win if they had a bottom dwelling defense. Manning, easily a top ten o-line, WR's forget about it. Defense also solid. Manning does great things, but he also has a ton of great pieces around him. Carr has no dominating defense, matter of fact he has the worst ranked defense in the league. Our o-line is still not the best, but it's improving. Our receiver's are the only unit that really help Carr and he is utilizing them to his full capacity considering his situation. Add to all these things that he has no running game. I mean right now, Carr is the driving force on the offensive side of the ball. Okay, I regress, I don't think Carr does more for our team than Manning does for his team, but their contributions are comparable.

Cgold
10-04-2006, 08:47 PM
First of all Im a big carr supporter but i have to respectfully disagree big time on carr doing more than manning for his team.. i think carr can be great but manning is the Qb of the nfl, not to mention hes calling the plays, giving assignments and call audibles every play.. he tells dungy how its going to be and not the other way around :D Manning runs the show 110%

thunderkyss
10-04-2006, 08:51 PM
I think Carr does more for our team then Vick does for his team. I might go as far as saying Carr does more for his team than Manning does for his team. Why do I say that, look at the talent around all these QB's. Atlanta has Gibbs coaching that line. So regardless of how many yds. Vick gained the running game would always be solid. Add to that that Atl. has a top 10 D that keeps them in the game. How many game's would Atl. win if they had a bottom dwelling defense. Manning, easily a top ten o-line, WR's forget about it. Defense also solid. Manning does great things, but he also has a ton of great pieces around him. Carr has no dominating defense, matter of fact he has the worst ranked defense in the league. Our o-line is still not the best, but it's improving. Our receiver's are the only unit that really help Carr and he is utilizing them to his full capacity considering his situation. Add to all these things that he has no running game. I mean right now, Carr is the driving force on the offensive side of the ball. Okay, I regress, I don't think Carr does more for our team than Manning does for his team, but their contributions are comparable.


This is the kind of post that turn casual fans into Carr Haters...

SESupergenius
10-05-2006, 10:55 AM
First of all Im a big carr supporter but i have to respectfully disagree big time on carr doing more than manning for his team.. i think carr can be great but manning is the Qb of the nfl, not to mention hes calling the plays, giving assignments and call audibles every play.. he tells dungy how its going to be and not the other way around :D Manning runs the show 110%
This is not to say that Manning is not great, he is, but Carr is doing more for his team because of the lack of other areas in the team that give this team wins. The Colts have a better defense and a better running game to compliment Manning and give him more tools to work with. Carr really only has the passing game right now to get this team going.

chuckm
10-05-2006, 10:57 AM
This is the kind of post that turn casual fans into Carr Haters...

and this is the kind of post that makes casual fans wonder about Carr Haters' motives .....

HOU-TEX
10-05-2006, 10:58 AM
Aah--y'all can have a moment like in Ses' avatar. None of us will look--trust me.

He completes me.

:backsout:

thunderkyss
10-05-2006, 11:30 AM
and this is the kind of post that makes casual fans wonder about Carr Haters' motives .....

Just looking for a little understanding, that's all. We just want to be loved for who we are.

TexansLucky13
10-05-2006, 11:46 AM
Cak, I think this thread needs to be renamed.

"The Carr Brokeback Therapy Thread"

:gathering:

HOU-TEX
10-05-2006, 11:48 AM
Just looking for a little understanding, that's all. We just want to be loved for who we are.

:grouphug:

real
10-05-2006, 11:51 AM
Cak, I think this thread needs to be renamed.

"The Carr Brokeback Therapy Thread"

:gathering:

:grouphug:.....:spy:

HOU-TEX
10-05-2006, 11:53 AM
:grouphug:.....:spy:

lol:

This thread's getting a little too warm and fuzzy.LOL