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the wonger need food
09-28-2006, 06:44 PM
I'm just sitting here watching the replay of the Steelers/Bengals game on NFL Network. Carson Palmer had 3 fumbles and 2 INT's. Roethlesbooger threw 3 INT's in the game. Just a little food for thought...

You guys know that I'm no Carr apologist, far from it. But I think that we're seeing the guy transform into an average NFL QB. We all know his TD/INT numbers and QB rating, but I think the biggest difference is his abitlity to get the ball downfield. He already has 8 passes for 20+ and 2 passes for 40+. Last year he had 18 and 2 respectively.

I'm not saying that we absolutely shouldn't draft Brady Quinn, but there is some doubt.

mexican_texan
09-28-2006, 06:46 PM
I'm just sitting here watching the replay of the Steelers/Bengals game on NFL Network. Carson Palmer had 3 fumbles and 2 INT's. Roethlesbooger threw 3 INT's in the game. Just a little food for thought...

You guys know that I'm no Carr apologist, far from it. But I think that we're seeing the guy transform into an average NFL QB. We all know his TD/INT numbers and QB rating, but I think the biggest difference is his abitlity to get the ball downfield. He already 8 passes for 20+ and 2 passes for 40+. Last year he had 18 and 2 respectively.

I'm not saying that we absolutely shouldn't draft Brady Quinn, but there is some doubt.
QB is not our problem. It's the defense. Haven't we known that already?

the wonger need food
09-28-2006, 06:48 PM
QB is not our problem. It's the defense. Haven't we known that already?

Some have, some haven't.

I still think that QB is somewhat of a problem. Carr is not a leader and makes a lot of mistakes, but he is making strides to become an average QB.

sprtsfanatic
09-28-2006, 06:50 PM
QB is not our problem. It's the defense. Haven't we known that already?


We do NOW....for the past 4 1/2 years our problem has been on the offense side of the ball mainly on the O line but the Qb position has had its fair share of blame.

TEXANRED
09-28-2006, 06:53 PM
I'm just sitting here watching the replay of the Steelers/Bengals game on NFL Network. Carson Palmer had 3 fumbles and 2 INT's. Roethlesbooger threw 3 INT's in the game. Just a little food for thought...

You guys know that I'm no Carr apologist, far from it. But I think that we're seeing the guy transform into an average NFL QB. We all know his TD/INT numbers and QB rating, but I think the biggest difference is his abitlity to get the ball downfield. He already 8 passes for 20+ and 2 passes for 40+. Last year he had 18 and 2 respectively.

I'm not saying that we absolutely shouldn't draft Brady Quinn, but there is some doubt.

Oh God Wonger, what have you done! You started a Carr thread!

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quick, must talk about something else.........national media thinks we suck......we should have drafted Bush.............Mario is a bust.........

You may now proceed.:francis:

hollywood_texan
09-28-2006, 07:01 PM
The Texans offense since inception, averages about 16 points a game. The best year was 2004, which was 19 points game. Coincidentally, that was the best year for our defense.

The defense is a huge problem, but scoring points in the teens isn't going to produce a winning team unless you have a Chicago type defense in a weak division.

Bottom line, the offense is going to have to start scoring more points, averaging around in the mid to high 20's, otherwise we will still be stuck at best a .500 record.

So, you can blame the defense all you want, the offense still has to improve on what they haven't been able to get done since year 1.

K.D.
09-28-2006, 07:04 PM
Carr is making big strides in showing that he can manage the O. If our D will show alil bit of life and get some stops, Carr would show more improvement than what he is showing now. Our D is dictating to many parts of every game this season, no running game cuz we're playing catch-up, TOP doubled, etc...

mexican_texan
09-28-2006, 07:05 PM
Some have, some haven't.

I still think that QB is somewhat of a problem. Carr is not a leader and makes a lot of mistakes, but he is making strides to become an average QB.
Defense still is top priority in the Draft and FA.

K.D.
09-28-2006, 07:08 PM
The Texans offense since inception, averages about 16 points a game. The best year was 2004, which was 19 points game. Coincidentally, that was the best year for our defense.

The defense is a huge problem, but scoring points in the teens isn't going to produce a winning team unless you have a Chicago type defense in a weak division.

Bottom line, the offense is going to have to start scoring more points, averaging around in the mid to high 20's, otherwise we will still be stuck at best a .500 record.

So, you can blame the defense all you want, the offense still has to improve on what they haven't been able to get done since year 1.

I really think this O can score in mid-20's consistantly. Once again that's where the D comes into play. With some quick 3-outs, we could win the field position battle and wouldn't have to worry about 80-yard drives everytime we touch the ball.

SESupergenius
09-28-2006, 07:15 PM
When you have a team in our division that lights it up every time like the Colts do and we meet them twice each year, then it goes without saying that defense against them needs to be our top priority. When a team that goes 10-6 during the year can barely get into the playoffs, every loss hurts. Right off the bat we lose twice each year to the Colts, that's an automatic 33% of our loses allowed for the season if we plan to barely make the playoffs. How can the defense NOT be a priority. If we can start getting points off of turnovers from the defense, this offense would be in the upper half of the league.

infantrycak
09-28-2006, 07:16 PM
The defense is a huge problem, but scoring points in the teens isn't going to produce a winning team unless you have a Chicago type defense in a weak division.

Bottom line, the offense is going to have to start scoring more points, averaging around in the mid to high 20's, otherwise we will still be stuck at best a .500 record.

Yes the O needs to improve, but you are exagerating slightly. Most years mid pack is right around 20 points. 25 points as an average is elite area most years--just 6 teams last year. If you need that many points--your D is sucking wind.

bigTEXan8
09-28-2006, 07:20 PM
carr has played better...but that doesn't mean he's helping the team. of course...the defense hasn't helped either. offense hasn't kept them in the game, nor has the defense. in fact, the defense has yet to show up to a single game this year. everybody needs to play better; not just carr, defense, etc.

hollywood_texan
09-28-2006, 07:20 PM
I really think this O can score in mid-20's consistantly. Once again that's where the D comes into play. With some quick 3-outs, we could win the field position battle and wouldn't have to worry about 80-yard drives everytime we touch the ball.

I don't have your same optimism. Go through their box scores beginning with 2004. You will see the same pattern.

Of course, in 2004 there were a few shows of good games, but the offense consistently can only be expected to put up about 17 points, rush for about 100 yards, 200 yards passing, with around 25 attempts and 18 completions.

How is the defense stopping teams going to make this better when that is what they have been doing consistently over the past two years, even back to 2002, but let's give them a break because they were an expansion team.

What I am saying is, I'll believe it when I see them perfrom considerably better than those stats above in 2 out of 3 weeks.

You guys can bang on the defense all you want (and let me tell you, they deserve more criticism than the offense), but the offense has it's own set of problems regardless of what the defense does. Thinking the defense stopping people a few times and holding teams to the low 20's is going to mean the offense is going to have to play a full complete game, which in turn will bring up it's own set of problems for the offense.

I hope the Dolphins can only get in the low 20s or a little lower, because I really want to see how this offense reponds to that kind of opportunity.

hollywood_texan
09-28-2006, 07:26 PM
Yes the O needs to improve, but you are exagerating slightly. Most years mid pack is right around 20 points. 25 points as an average is elite area most years--just 6 teams last year. If you need that many points--your D is sucking wind.

We have Kubiak, Sherman, Carr, Jonhson, and Moulds.

I believe McNair has in mind to have an offensive minded team that scores points and 25 as an average is a reasonable goal. They may not hit it, but they should come close or have some flashes of several weeks in a row that they could do that an entire season.

Your right though, that is an elite offense.

K.D.
09-28-2006, 07:35 PM
To tell you the truth HT, I really don't want to look back on the early years.:) That thing we called an O wasn't much until oppossing D's knew we only had 3 plays, off-tackle L or R, slant L or R, and dump-off L or R. This years O has shown the variety of plays, that we can actually cause mis-matches and exploit them and score points. Once again can the D hold up, that's the million-dollar question.

BTW, we scored first in 2 of 3 games, how long did it take the other team to tie the score up, that's my point. IT'S ALL ABOUT DEFENSE!!

hollywood_texan
09-28-2006, 07:50 PM
To tell you the truth HT, I really don't want to look back on the early years.:) That thing we called an O wasn't much until oppossing D's knew we only had 3 plays, off-tackle L or R, slant L or R, and dump-off L or R. This years O has shown the variety of plays, that we can actually cause mis-matches and exploit them and score points. Once again can the D hold up, that's the million-dollar question.

BTW, we scored first in 2 of 3 games, how long did it take the other team to tie the score up, that's my point. IT'S ALL ABOUT DEFENSE!!

You are kind of making my point, the offense is still the same with all the changes with the first three games. Those first drives are nice, but they just about completely fell apart after that and I don't see how you can say that is a complete result of the defense.

I understand the point that the defense isn't doing the offense any favors, but the offense is getting the ball basically on their own 20 every time the other team scores.

As I have said earlier, this offense right now is only good for 17 points, about 100 yards rushing, and 200 yards passing, which is very consistent since 2002. The offense isn't doing the defense any favors, never has!

What are you guys going to say when the Texans lose to the Dolphins 20-17, 20-10, or some other low score? I hope you blame the offense from how I am understanding you.

Please keep in mind if the defense plays better and keeps the game close, the opposing defense is going to keep-or probably even turn up-the heat on the offense, those yards in the 4th quarter will not come so easy if the game is on the line.

It sounds like if the game is in the teens to low 20's, we have an automatic victory. I don't think so. I don't think this offense can perform in the clutch like that on a consistent basis. And if they can't, your defense point really doesn't matter when it comes to victories.

This isn't all about defense as you stated. Both sides of the ball need a lot work. Just so happens, the defense needs a lot more work.

K.D.
09-28-2006, 08:04 PM
I'm getting what you are saying HT, but why do you think we can't put together a game-winning drive. I think that this is very possible of this years team. Play-calling and scheme are the keys.

jmerog
09-28-2006, 08:30 PM
I'm just sitting here watching the replay of the Steelers/Bengals game on NFL Network. Carson Palmer had 3 fumbles and 2 INT's. Roethlesbooger threw 3 INT's in the game. Just a little food for thought...

You guys know that I'm no Carr apologist, far from it. But I think that we're seeing the guy transform into an average NFL QB. We all know his TD/INT numbers and QB rating, but I think the biggest difference is his abitlity to get the ball downfield. He already has 8 passes for 20+ and 2 passes for 40+. Last year he had 18 and 2 respectively.

I'm not saying that we absolutely shouldn't draft Brady Quinn, but there is some doubt.



I completely agree with your post (except for the drafting of quinn)but I am amazed that it was you who pointed it out. Kudos.

I think Carr is getting better and the o-line is a little better this year even with flanigan and Spencer out. Salaam played better than i thought he would- as did Hodgden. I think our line will be looking good by later in the year and really good by the middle of next year. I do think Kubes will right the ship (and the Carr :) ).

I am deeply disappointed with our defense so far i must say. I definatly think that at least some of the offensive mistakes have been due to the colander defense. Its hard to get the running game going when you are playing from behind.

hollywood_texan
09-28-2006, 08:35 PM
I'm getting what you are saying HT, but why do you think we can't put together a game-winning drive. I think that this is very possible of this years team. Play-calling and scheme are the keys.

I think it is possible, I am just not confident they can pull it off.

With all the changes, the offense really just looks the same in my eyes, the stats are just moved around a bit.

But it is definitely possible with what you described, but they need to do it successfully for several weeks before I start expecting it.

If I expect it, then that means I could get disappointed, then I could get really mad.

Let's just say I am a skeptic of the offense, and completely mortified by the defense.

K.D.
09-28-2006, 09:05 PM
I think it is possible, I am just not confident they can pull it off.

With all the changes, the offense really just looks the same in my eyes, the stats are just moved around a bit.

But it is definitely possible with what you described, but they need to do it successfully for several weeks before I start expecting it.

If I expect it, then that means I could get disappointed, then I could get really mad.

Let's just say I am a skeptic of the offense, and completely mortified by the defense.

I agree with these points about doing it successfully and skeptical about the O and mortified about the D. I just think all of these ideals can be answered if we had more of a running game and actually trying to protect a lead in the 4th qtr. That way we could really see if this O is for real or just the same ol' song.

utahmark
09-28-2006, 09:49 PM
carr is not all the sudden turning into a good or ave qb. which a lot of people are trying to hint at. hes been a good qb who wasnt giving a chance to succeed. thats what some people on this board have been trying to make everyone understand.

carr has looked good for short periods of time when given the opportunity. but no qb could ever thrive being put in his situation. here were his primary recievers last year. bruener (cant catch). bradford (3 catches this year) gaffney (cant find a job). he had one guy to throw to and no time to find that guy. no one would look good in that situation.

now that he has been giving somewhat of a chance he is starting to look better. and will continue to look better. and as you guys tell us how carr is starting to improve we will just sit and smile because we knew all along.

Grid
09-28-2006, 11:00 PM
I think he has already transformed into an average NFL QB, and we are looking at the possibility of him becoming what we hoped he would be. A QB capable of taking a team to the superbowl.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 11:11 PM
carr is not all the sudden turning into a good or ave qb. which a lot of people are trying to hint at. hes been a good qb who wasnt giving a chance to succeed. thats what some people on this board have been trying to make everyone understand.

carr has looked good for short periods of time when given the opportunity. but no qb could ever thrive being put in his situation. here were his primary recievers last year. bruener (cant catch). bradford (3 catches this year) gaffney (cant find a job). he had one guy to throw to and no time to find that guy. no one would look good in that situation.

now that he has been giving somewhat of a chance he is starting to look better. and will continue to look better. and as you guys tell us how carr is starting to improve we will just sit and smile because we knew all along.

Well...... IMHO, I don't believe Carr has taken advantage of the opportunities given him. If he were sacked 8 times in a game, I'd expect him to have a bad game, if he only had 10 attempts.

Peyton Manning is successful, because the risk/reward of sacking him is too high. He'll beat a blitz more times than not, and if his recievers are covered, he'll throw it away...... only giving up the down.

McNabb....... he may be worse. he's elusive in the backfield, but he makes time for his recievers to get open. If he leaves the pocket, he can pick up the first down.... if the defense swarm to him, he'll throw the ball to a wide open reciever.........

Carr...... chances are you'll get a sack....... the offense will move backwards, and if you're really lucky, you'll get a fumble & a recovery.

Carr's been playing better so far, in three games this year. I would say he's almost back to his 2004 form...... but he's got a long way to go.

David should have won us the Philly game........ If he'd have kept his feet inbounds, picked up that first....... got us into the endzone. Our D would've been soooo pumped, we'd have got the stop, or the turnover. At that point, there would have been nothing they would not have done to get Carr the ball.

Against Indy...... first play of the game....... all he's got to do, is hold onto the ball....... just hold the ball, give us a chance to punt the ball away. Then on first & 10 from the 7, blitz coming off the left, you have AJ on the left manned up on the corner...... duh..... AJ will be open on the slant.... beat the blitz, don't take the sack. That's a 14 point swing right there. We lost, by 19. It would have been a totally different game.

Against Washington.... When Walter has a step on the corner...... heading to the endzone, throw the ball over his head, let him go get it.

Everybody played poorly Weeks 1-3....... AJ dropped some balls....... Lundy can't pass block.... Weigart is a double agent.... Dunta gets burned..... CC flattens out a reciever for no reason..... there isn't a player who didn't make a mistake.

As the QB, David is in a unique position to change the game on every snap. He comes up short...... way to often.

We can watch Palmer throw three INTs, or fumble three times or whatever.... I didn't watch the game, but I bet he made some key plays at key times, to win that game......(did the Bengals win??). Eli Manning can get sacked 9 times in a game.... 7 in regulation.... but he'll make that one play, that will change the outcome of the game...... Byron Leftwich is not nearly as talented as David Carr. & you can believe the Jags are more talented than we are if you want..... but Byron's just lucky........ things just happen to work out for him all the time.....

Remember in the preseason, when we played Denver?? JakePlummer drops back, slips.... he hits the ground, but pops right back up, and throws a twenty some odd yard strike.


Am I being unfair to expect David to do the things I've asked?? Am I holding David to a higher standard than the rest of the team??

Yeah. He's the QB. I don't care if he was the #1 overall, If he's going to be successfull, if he's going to lead this team, then those are the kind of things he's got to do. Brady, Cullpepper, Rothlisberger, Brees.... these are the things these QBs do.....

If you want a Dilfer....... that's fine, if you want a BradJohnson, that's cool, that's fine. Just say you don't want Carr to be anything special..... just say you don't need a "special" QB to win the Superbowl...... I won't argue that.

But I want QB, a field general, I want a winner, a fighter, and a playmaker.

BuffSoldier
09-28-2006, 11:15 PM
Carr has the number 1 passer rating in the NFL, and only 2 people have more TDs than he does. He has more TDs than Peyton Manning, and just 1 pick through 3 games against 3 good defenses.Hes averaging over 210 yards a game and 2 TDs a game. This is with no running game and no defense.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2006/regular

Napa Auto Parts
09-28-2006, 11:21 PM
I'm just sitting here watching the replay of the Steelers/Bengals game on NFL Network. Carson Palmer had 3 fumbles and 2 INT's. Roethlesbooger threw 3 INT's in the game. Just a little food for thought...

You guys know that I'm no Carr apologist, far from it. But I think that we're seeing the guy transform into an average NFL QB. We all know his TD/INT numbers and QB rating, but I think the biggest difference is his abitlity to get the ball downfield. He already has 8 passes for 20+ and 2 passes for 40+. Last year he had 18 and 2 respectively.

I'm not saying that we absolutely shouldn't draft Brady Quinn, but there is some doubt.



i think its safe to say that someone cracked in too wonger account he's more of a carr hater than me.:cool: but i have to say Carr has looked better that he has in the past and im glad for that. i just hope he can be more consistent he has had two awsome 1st drive's to start a game but always seems to find a way to go back to his bad habits but he might get better with time.

utahmark
09-28-2006, 11:25 PM
Well...... IMHO, I don't believe Carr has taken advantage of the opportunities given him. If he were sacked 8 times in a game, I'd expect him to have a bad game, if he only had 10 attempts.

Peyton Manning is successful, because the risk/reward of sacking him is too high. He'll beat a blitz more times than not, and if his recievers are covered, he'll throw it away...... only giving up the down.

McNabb....... he may be worse. he's elusive in the backfield, but he makes time for his recievers to get open. If he leaves the pocket, he can pick up the first down.... if the defense swarm to him, he'll throw the ball to a wide open reciever.........

Carr...... chances are you'll get a sack....... the offense will move backwards, and if you're really lucky, you'll get a fumble & a recovery.

Carr's been playing better so far, in three games this year. I would say he's almost back to his 2004 form...... but he's got a long way to go.

David should have won us the Philly game........ If he'd have kept his feet inbounds, picked up that first....... got us into the endzone. Our D would've been soooo pumped, we'd have got the stop, or the turnover. At that point, there would have been nothing they would not have done to get Carr the ball.

Against Indy...... first play of the game....... all he's got to do, is hold onto the ball....... just hold the ball, give us a chance to punt the ball away. Then on first & 10 from the 7, blitz coming off the left, you have AJ on the left manned up on the corner...... duh..... AJ will be open on the slant.... beat the blitz, don't take the sack. That's a 14 point swing right there. We lost, by 19. It would have been a totally different game.

Against Washington.... When Walter has a step on the corner...... heading to the endzone, throw the ball over his head, let him go get it.

Everybody played poorly Weeks 1-3....... AJ dropped some balls....... Lundy can't pass block.... Weigart is a double agent.... Dunta gets burned..... CC flattens out a reciever for no reason..... there isn't a player who didn't make a mistake.

As the QB, David is in a unique position to change the game on every snap. He comes up short...... way to often.

We can watch Palmer throw three INTs, or fumble three times or whatever.... I didn't watch the game, but I bet he made some key plays at key times, to win that game......(did the Bengals win??). Eli Manning can get sacked 9 times in a game.... 7 in regulation.... but he'll make that one play, that will change the outcome of the game...... Byron Leftwich is not nearly as talented as David Carr. & you can believe the Jags are more talented than we are if you want..... but Byron's just lucky........ things just happen to work out for him all the time.....

Remember in the preseason, when we played Denver?? JakePlummer drops back, slips.... he hits the ground, but pops right back up, and throws a twenty some odd yard strike.


Am I being unfair to expect David to do the things I've asked?? Am I holding David to a higher standard than the rest of the team??

Yeah. He's the QB. I don't care if he was the #1 overall, If he's going to be successfull, if he's going to lead this team, then those are the kind of things he's got to do. Brady, Cullpepper, Rothlisberger, Brees.... these are the things these QBs do.....

If you want a Dilfer....... that's fine, if you want a BradJohnson, that's cool, that's fine. Just say you don't want Carr to be anything special..... just say you don't need a "special" QB to win the Superbowl...... I won't argue that.

But I want QB, a field general, I want a winner, a fighter, and a playmaker.

those guys you mention play on better teams. thats why they can make mistakes and still have a chance to pull it out in the end. when was the last time carr had a chance to win a game at the end.

and what makes you think our defense would of made a play to stop philly. they had a 9 min drive to end the game.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 11:27 PM
Carr has the number 1 passer rating in the NFL, and only 2 people have more TDs than he does. He has more TDs than Peyton Manning, and just 1 pick through 3 games against 3 good defenses.Hes averaging over 210 yards a game and 2 TDs a game. This is with no running game and no defense.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/leaders/NFL/PRAT/2006/regular

He fumbled the ball on the first snap of the game against Indy.... his coach wants to know where he disappears to in the 2nd & 3rd Qtr... He runs out of bounds against Philly, and he Underthrows Walter in the endzone......

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 11:30 PM
those guys you mention play on better teams. thats why they can make mistakes and still have a chance to pull it out in the end. when was the last time carr had a chance to win a game at the end.

and what makes you think our defense would of made a play to stop philly. they had a 9 min drive to end the game.

right there in Philly, Carr had the opportunity to win the game.... we would have had momentum.....

he goes out of bounds, and throws the ball at a jumping safety..... kinda kills what momentum we had building up.

BuffSoldier
09-28-2006, 11:36 PM
He fumbled the ball on the first snap of the game against Indy.... his coach wants to know where he disappears to in the 2nd & 3rd Qtr... He runs out of bounds against Philly, and he Underthrows Walter in the endzone......


He can barely get on the field in the 2nd and 3rd quarters because the defense is too buisy getting mashed. The supposedly improved offensive line still sucks. And the Texans havent had any running game all year, why would the defense try to do anything but shut down the passing game. If we could get 1 rushing TD a game we would be averaging over 21 points a game, Carr cant do it all.

BuffSoldier
09-28-2006, 11:38 PM
right there in Philly, Carr had the opportunity to win the game.... we would have had momentum.....

he goes out of bounds, and throws the ball at a jumping safety..... kinda kills what momentum we had building up.

How about some protection so that he doesnt have to run at all. When Carr has had time,he has executed, thats all there is to it.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 11:45 PM
How about some protection so that he doesnt have to run at all. When Carr has had time,he has executed, thats all there is to it.

He's had as much time as our defenses have been giving our opposing QBs... He just doesn't manage the time as well.

blockhead83
09-28-2006, 11:46 PM
Kenny Wright outfought Kevin Walter for that pass. That was an example of Carr giving his WR a chance to make a play, in hopes of getting a quick score to put us back in the game. Was that the best decision, or a great throw for that matter? No. But I can see where Carr was trying to go with it. If it had been a more direct throw and had been straight to a defender then yea, horrible pass. But this was a 30 yard throw with plenty of air under it, Kevin Walter could've outfought Wright and we've got 6, or he could have atleast batted the ball down. When Carson Palmer lobs one up to Chris Henry or TJ Houshmanzadeh and they outwork the CB for a TD, Palmer's hailed as a great QB (which he is), when Carr does the same and the CB outworks his WR he made a horrible decision. It's tough being a QB these days.

Also, IMO Carr has surpassed his 2004 form, I won't feed you stats, but I've never seen Carr look this good. Andre's had some drops when the balls hit him square in the numbers, but people still seem to think he's playing at a pro bowl level. Apparently Carr isn't allowed to make mistakes. Bottom line is Carr and the passing attack are getting us closer to W's, not further away, which is a welcome change after their last 4 seasons.

blockhead83
09-28-2006, 11:48 PM
He's had as much time as our defenses have been giving our opposing QBs... He just doesn't manage the time as well.

Buff's right about Carr having less opportunities. Did you notice how the Redskins used up like 11 of the 15 minutes in the 3rd quarter with one drive? Sure is hard to get in a rhythm when you only touch the ball once a quarter.

HoustonFan
09-28-2006, 11:51 PM
Carr is getting better. I'm still amazed at all of the callers wanting Carr to be benched and traded, etc.

I still think he's being held back as far as passing the ball. Kubes!!!! Don't be scared to let Carr put the ball in the air. It has been working. IMO, that's what's gonna help kick start the running game for this team. Which will lead to the offense becoming a beast, which will improve our defense by them not being on the field over half the game.

utahmark
09-28-2006, 11:54 PM
He's had as much time as our defenses have been giving our opposing QBs... He just doesn't manage the time as well.

thats an insane statement. he would light up our defense. why do you think our coaches dont realize how bad our o-line is untill the reagular season starts. cause our d line is so bad they cant even get pressure on our own qb.

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 12:02 AM
Kenny Wright outfought Kevin Walter for that pass. That was an example of Carr giving his WR a chance to make a play, in hopes of getting a quick score to put us back in the game. Was that the best decision, or a great throw for that matter? No. But I can see where Carr was trying to go with it. If it had been a more direct throw and had been straight to a defender then yea, horrible pass. But this was a 30 yard throw with plenty of air under it, Kevin Walter could've outfought Wright and we've got 6, or he could have atleast batted the ball down. When Carson Palmer lobs one up to Chris Henry or TJ Houshmanzadeh and they outwork the CB for a TD, Palmer's hailed as a great QB (which he is), when Carr does the same and the CB outworks his WR he made a horrible decision. It's tough being a QB these days.

Also, IMO Carr has surpassed his 2004 form, I won't feed you stats, but I've never seen Carr look this good. Andre's had some drops when the balls hit him square in the numbers, but people still seem to think he's playing at a pro bowl level. Apparently Carr isn't allowed to make mistakes. Bottom line is Carr and the passing attack are getting us closer to W's, not further away, which is a welcome change after their last 4 seasons.


He's been hitting Andre's back shoulder.... not a bad throw for an avg NFL QB. Not the kind of thing an elite QB does on a regular basis.

And Kenny Wright didn't outfight Walter for that ball.... it was underthrown, just like the one that was incomplet to AJ going down the middle of the field earlier, and the one thrown to AJ that he got the PI call inside the five.

If nothing else, Carr should've thrown that ball sooner, get it out in front, if the CB is inside & behind the reciever. If our reciever is a step behind, and the Corner is on the inside, then yeah... Walter has an opportunity to fight for that one.

There is a difference between an underthrown ball, and giving your reciever an opportunity to make a play. The elites know the difference.

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 12:05 AM
thats an insane statement. he would light up our defense. why do you think our coaches dont realize how bad our o-line is untill the reagular season starts. cause our d line is so bad they cant even get pressure on our own qb.

It's true, I've taped all three games, I've timed most every snapp......... he's had the same time, except for the first snap of the Indy game......

on avg, he has about 2.6 seconds.... that's about the time that everyone's been getting rid of the ball.... Brunnells had more thrown in less time, but overall McNabb, Carr, Peyton, & Brunnells seems to like to get the ball out in 2.6 seconds.

Scooter
09-29-2006, 12:07 AM
He's had as much time as our defenses have been giving our opposing QBs... He just doesn't manage the time as well.

that's just incorrect tk. there have been a couple times that carr's had enough time to dance in the pocket, but it's not the norm. opposing qb's however have had that long and longer on the majority of their passing downs. then again, it's very rare that only 4 rushers have been sent at carr where as it's rare that we send more than 4. it's actually where carr looks his worst is when he's got time. the clock in his head goes off and he panics, obviously losing sight of his receivers and getting happy feet (a lot of the reason kubiak's trying to slow him down).

Scooter
09-29-2006, 12:15 AM
It's true, I've taped all three games, I've timed most every snapp......... he's had the same time, except for the first snap of the Indy game......

on avg, he has about 2.6 seconds.... that's about the time that everyone's been getting rid of the ball.... Brunnells had more thrown in less time, but overall McNabb, Carr, Peyton, & Brunnells seems to like to get the ball out in 2.6 seconds.

carr's getting hit at 2.6 seconds where as the others are throwing at 2.6 seconds ... having atleast another second of breathing space from the defenders and clear lanes.

texan279
09-29-2006, 12:15 AM
He fumbled the ball on the first snap of the game against Indy.... his coach wants to know where he disappears to in the 2nd & 3rd Qtr... He runs out of bounds against Philly, and he Underthrows Walter in the endzone......

He's been on the sidelines watching the defense get manhandled. Our total time of possession in the 2nd and 3rd quarters of our three games this season has been 32:57. That is just over 30 minutes out of 90 minutes, or 6 quarters.

utahmark
09-29-2006, 12:20 AM
It's true, I've taped all three games, I've timed most every snapp......... he's had the same time, except for the first snap of the Indy game......

on avg, he has about 2.6 seconds.... that's about the time that everyone's been getting rid of the ball.... Brunnells had more thrown in less time, but overall McNabb, Carr, Peyton, & Brunnells seems to like to get the ball out in 2.6 seconds.

i record the games also. i dont see the same thing as you.

texan279
09-29-2006, 12:27 AM
It's true, I've taped all three games, I've timed most every snapp......... he's had the same time, except for the first snap of the Indy game......

on avg, he has about 2.6 seconds.... that's about the time that everyone's been getting rid of the ball.... Brunnells had more thrown in less time, but overall McNabb, Carr, Peyton, & Brunnells seems to like to get the ball out in 2.6 seconds.


Manning and McNabb could sit in the backfield drink a cup of coffee, read the newspaper, and then throw the ball. They have been sacked a total of 10 times this season, the same amount as Carr has been sacked. Seems kind of a coincidence that you say Carr has 2.6 seconds to throw the ball then say that Manning and McNabb get rid of the ball in about 2.6 seconds, have you timed how long Manning and McNabb have in the backfield or hold onto the ball or are you guesstimating?

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 12:33 AM
Carr is getting better. I'm still amazed at all of the callers wanting Carr to be benched and traded, etc.

I still think he's being held back as far as passing the ball. Kubes!!!! Don't be scared to let Carr put the ball in the air. It has been working. IMO, that's what's gonna help kick start the running game for this team. Which will lead to the offense becoming a beast, which will improve our defense by them not being on the field over half the game.

Just so there is no misunderstandings........

I'm not bashing David. I don't believe that we lost any of these games because of David...... I don't think he had a bigger part in any of these losses than any other player on the team.

I think David is playing better than he did last year, and that he is playing well.

I'm saying he has been given opportunities that would move him closer to what I want him to be, and he failed to capitalize on them. Much like when Mario gets into the backfield untouched. He has an opportunity to stop a runner for a loss, sack the QB, or bat a ball down. But so far, he's come up a fraction of a second late, for whatever reason.

I don't think Kubes is holding him back, a good point from Sunday's game, is that David went to the WR early, and more often through out the game. I think a big part of that is Kubes getting him plays that he likes. Like those three consecutive completions to Andre in the forth...... all underneath stuff, that AJ has to turn into big gains....

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 12:39 AM
Buff's right about Carr having less opportunities. Did you notice how the Redskins used up like 11 of the 15 minutes in the 3rd quarter with one drive? Sure is hard to get in a rhythm when you only touch the ball once a quarter.

We had four possesions in the first half, Washington had five. We had four possessions in the second half, Washington had three....

He's been on the sidelines watching the defense get
manhandled. Our total time of possession in the 2nd and 3rd quarters of our three games this season has been 32:57. That is just over 30 minutes out of 90 minutes, or 6 quarters.

Yeah..... it's a bummer how fumbles, sacks, incomplete passes, and penalties kill a drive.

Manning and McNabb could sit in the backfield drink a cup of coffee, read the newspaper, and then throw the ball. They have been sacked a total of 10 times this season, the same amount as Carr has been sacked. Seems kind of a coincidence that you say Carr has 2.6 seconds to throw the ball then say that Manning and McNabb get rid of the ball in about 2.6 seconds, have you timed how long Manning and McNabb have in the backfield or hold onto the ball or are you guesstimating?

They've been sacked 10 times total each, or put together?? David's only been sacked 11 times...

texan279
09-29-2006, 12:40 AM
We had four possesions in the first half, Washington had five. We had four possessions in the second half, Washington had three....



Yeah..... it's a bummer how fumbles, sacks, incomplete passes, and penalties kill a drive.



They've been sacked 10 times total each, or put together?? David's only been sacked 11 times...

Carr has been sacked 10 times, Manning and McNabb 5 times each this season.

texan279
09-29-2006, 12:45 AM
We had four possesions in the first half, Washington had five. We had four possessions in the second half, Washington had three....



Yeah..... it's a bummer how fumbles, sacks, incomplete passes, and penalties kill a drive.



They've been sacked 10 times total each, or put together?? David's only been sacked 11 times...

And Washington owned us in time of possession, they had the ball 38 minutes and 7 seconds out of 60 minutes, which means we had the ball 21 minutes and 53 seconds out of 60 minutes. When your defense is allowing almost 500 yards a game, your opponent is usually going to have the advantage in time of possession no matter who has how many drives.

BuffSoldier
09-29-2006, 12:52 AM
We had four possesions in the first half, Washington had five. We had four possessions in the second half, Washington had three....



Yeah..... it's a bummer how fumbles, sacks, incomplete passes, and penalties kill a drive.


They've been sacked 10 times total each, or put together?? David's only been sacked 11 times...

Carr has one fumble, hes not dropping the ball like Kurt Warner, so what are you talking about, 90% of the time the sacks are the o-lines fault and how many penalties has Carr had personaly. What does he hae to do with that.


And as far as incompletions are concerned, Carr is completing 60% of his passes which is good for any NFL QB and that is against 3 of the most talented secondaries in the NFL.

Lets see who he faced:

Michael Lewis
Lito Sheppard
Brian Dawkins
Bob Sanders
Mike Doss
Nick Harper
Adam Archuleta
Carlos Rogers
Sean Taylor

Those are arguably some of the best DBs in the NFL not to mention that he had to worry about Dwight Freeny, Robert Mathis, Jevon Kearse, Darren Howard, Jeramaih Trotter(Blitzing). All this and has stil completed 60% of his passes and has 6 TDs. WITH NO RUNNING GAME

texan279
09-29-2006, 12:54 AM
We had four possesions in the first half, Washington had five. We had four possessions in the second half, Washington had three....



Yeah..... it's a bummer how fumbles, sacks, incomplete passes, and penalties kill a drive.



They've been sacked 10 times total each, or put together?? David's only been sacked 11 times...

Out of 12 drives we have had in the 2nd and 3rd quarters this season, we have had 4 offensive penalties, given up 3 sacks, and had 2 fumbles that we recovered, I don't see much there that is enough to stop 12 drives.

BuffSoldier
09-29-2006, 01:07 AM
All this and has stil completed 60% of his passes

Im sorry, I was wrong, hes completing 72% of his passes

Cruuuuuuuz
09-29-2006, 01:08 AM
It's kinda strange but I think the best thing Kubes has brought to the Texans so far has been his ability to salvage Carr as an NFL QB....Carr's one tuff mutha%&^% in my book as far as how much punishment he has taken in his career. He's got my respect....

I say we give the guy a break...these recent fumbles have been Carr just working through his final stages of getting over shell shock...

Honestly, I cant think of one QB in the league that could go through the past fews years of the O-line and coaching that the Texans have gone through and STILL HAVE EVEN A GLIMMER OF POTENTIAL...like Carr still has...

this team was built from scratch, he's been here from the beginning and FINALLY i can put him on my fantasy football team as my #2 QB!!!!
He's gettin better. Our team has bigger problems. Carr's not one of them.

Ibar_Harry
09-29-2006, 02:29 AM
You can talk about all the stats you want, but the best one is where are the WR's he's been throwing to the last few years, except for AJ. Umm, yes they are no longer playing. That includes number 2 last year and Bradford. People have been wondering why he has been throwing to DD all the time. I think you now have your answer.

Unfortunately, DD has been run into the ground and all hope seems to be gone for a decent RB this season. May be Gado will step up, but right now its not looking so good. I think the real reason Carr is what he is, including being nervous, is the result of the players he has had around him.

Basically the Texans have fielded zero to help David. It's as simple as that. Will he get to the upper tier, I don't know, but it seems like the Texans are always deficient in one or more positions. Generally the O-line is better this year and he has some down field completions. Of course that shouldn't be too surprising given who he's throwing to. We have a very good receiver core, both TE's and WR's. Even Mr. B from Pittsburgh is getting into the act.

I keep saying they have to pass even more than they are, but that is simply one man's opinion based on what he has seen in the past. Its too bad this team hasn't jelled as well as some including me have expected. I still believe they have a lot of the right ingrediants, but its just not quite going together the way they want. I still think we have the tools to be a dominent team, but obviously we're just not there yet.

phan1
09-29-2006, 04:21 AM
Carr is a good QB. Not a consistent probowler by any means, but he's good enough to keep his job and good enough to not create a QB controversy. I see him as a slightly worse Drew Brees. And guess what? He's only going to get better from here on out. There are 2 things that I don't like about him though:

1) Center-snap exchange. Hey, this has always been a problem, not just the pass few weeks. I'm not sure who's falt it is, but that crap's got to stop. It has always happened throughout his career, and it's easy to just pass it off as "hey, it happens sometimes." No, it shouldn't happen. Ever.

2) Low trajectory. I have officially changed my mind when grading QBs: A low trajectory IS A CONCERN. He just throws a lot of tipped balls at the line of scrimage. If I'm a D coordinator, I'm going to blitz up the middle all day. It's not really something he can "fix", but it's something to be aware of and be careful about. Qbs do take partial responsability for tipped balls.

mancunian
09-29-2006, 05:30 AM
Yes the O needs to improve, but you are exagerating slightly. Most years mid pack is right around 20 points. 25 points as an average is elite area most years--just 6 teams last year. If you need that many points--your D is sucking wind.

The breaking point is generally seen as 21 points. If your offence scores that or more and the defence averages less you tend to have winning seasons.

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 07:27 AM
And Washington owned us in time of possession, they had the ball 38 minutes and 7 seconds out of 60 minutes, which means we had the ball 21 minutes and 53 seconds out of 60 minutes. When your defense is allowing almost 500 yards a game, your opponent is usually going to have the advantage in time of possession no matter who has how many drives.

& when your QB is fumbling the ball, your offense putting you in 3rd & long because of penalty, you give up sacks on 3 & 3, & you open a quarter like:

Houston Texans at 14:53
1-10-HOU19 (14:53) R.Dayne right guard to HST 21 for 2 yards (L.Marshall, W.Holdman).
2-8-HOU21 (14:26) D.Carr pass incomplete short right to J.Putzier (C.Griffin).
3-8-HOU21 (14:21) D.Carr pass incomplete short left to A.Johnson.
4-8-HOU21 (14:15) C.Stanley punts 49 yards to WAS 30, Center-B.Pittman, downed by HST-D.Polk. (Punt hang time 5.6 seconds.)

it makes it difficult to keep the offense on the field....

Carr has one fumble, hes not dropping the ball like Kurt Warner, so what are you talking about, 90% of the time the sacks are the o-lines fault and how many penalties has Carr had personaly. What does he hae to do with that.


And as far as incompletions are concerned, Carr is completing 60% of his passes which is good for any NFL QB and that is against 3 of the most talented secondaries in the NFL.

Lets see who he faced:

Michael Lewis
Lito Sheppard
Brian Dawkins
Bob Sanders
Mike Doss
Nick Harper
Adam Archuleta
Carlos Rogers
Sean Taylor

Those are arguably some of the best DBs in the NFL not to mention that he had to worry about Dwight Freeny, Robert Mathis, Jevon Kearse, Darren Howard, Jeramaih Trotter(Blitzing). All this and has stil completed 60% of his passes and has 6 TDs. WITH NO RUNNING GAME

& that's my point, he's got to beat guys like AdamArchuleta, who was described as a liability in coverage....... still, I'm not putting the blame of our impotent offense squarely on Carr. As a unit, our offense struggles...... but as the QB goes, the team goes.

I've pointed out opportunities David has had the opportunity to go from the next TrentDilfer to the next TomBrady that he has failed to take advantage of. If you think we are going to the superbowl beating Tennessee, the Oakland Raiders, and the NewYork Jets at home, the David is your man. If you want to beat the Colts, the Steelers, & the Broncos on the road, you are going to need your QB to step up.

Remeber in the 4th Qtr, those three consecutive underneath passes to AJ?? It's plays like that, that put AJ in the ProBowl, and DavidCarr watching on T.V. Because AJ are beating those same guys that David struggles with, on a bad team, with no running game.

& Carr has had two fumbles in this game....... two or three in last game, and two or three in our first game.

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 07:31 AM
Out of 12 drives we have had in the 2nd and 3rd quarters this season, we have had 4 offensive penalties, given up 3 sacks, and had 2 fumbles that we recovered, I don't see much there that is enough to stop 12 drives.

Are you being sarcastic, or do we have 12 touchdowns somewhere that I'm not counting?? 12 field goals?? any combination of the two??

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 07:40 AM
You can talk about all the stats you want, but the best one is where are the WR's he's been throwing to the last few years, except for AJ. Umm, yes they are no longer playing. That includes number 2 last year and Bradford. People have been wondering why he has been throwing to DD all the time. I think you now have your answer.

Again, ReggieWayne wasn't always ReggieWayne..... he'll disappear from the stat charts if he were to go to Carolina, Miami, KC, or SanDiego....... Stallworth's career is going to skyrocket, now that he is teamed with McNabb, Kurt Warner made AzHakim wanted commodity.



Unfortunately, DD has been run into the ground and all hope seems to be gone for a decent RB this season. May be Gado will step up, but right now its not looking so good. I think the real reason Carr is what he is, including being nervous, is the result of the players he has had around him.

our run game actually looks pretty good...... if our O can ever get a lead of 10 or more, you'd see it.

Basically the Texans have fielded zero to help David. It's as simple as that. Will he get to the upper tier, I don't know, but it seems like the Texans are always deficient in one or more positions. Generally the O-line is better this year and he has some down field completions. Of course that shouldn't be too surprising given who he's throwing to. We have a very good receiver core, both TE's and WR's. Even Mr. B from Pittsburgh is getting into the act.

I keep saying they have to pass even more than they are, but that is simply one man's opinion based on what he has seen in the past. Its too bad this team hasn't jelled as well as some including me have expected. I still believe they have a lot of the right ingrediants, but its just not quite going together the way they want. I still think we have the tools to be a dominent team, but obviously we're just not there yet.

In the last three games, we've been running to keep the defense honest...... we've been having to play catch up as early as the 3rd possession.

texan_fan_in_tampa_bay
09-29-2006, 07:51 AM
QB is not our problem. It's the defense. Haven't we known that already?

That's right!!

infantrycak
09-29-2006, 08:12 AM
He's been hitting Andre's back shoulder.... not a bad throw for an avg NFL QB. Not the kind of thing an elite QB does on a regular basis.

That's horse crap. Every single QB in the NFL makes less than ideal throws--that's how you get highlight catches by WR's--they're impressive because the WR's are adjusting to less than ideally thrown balls. Example--Plaxico running tip drills with himself to make two of the most important plays in the Giants vs. Eagles game.

Stats, Inc. has credited Carr with 3 poorly thrown balls on 82 attempts (3.6%)--Peyton has 14 on 110 (12.7%)--Eli has 16 on 113 (14%)--Palmer has 6 on 85 (7%)--you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

real
09-29-2006, 08:50 AM
That's horse crap. Every single QB in the NFL makes less than ideal throws--that's how you get highlight catches by WR's--they're impressive because the WR's are adjusting to less than ideally thrown balls. Example--Plaxico running tip drills with himself to make two of the most important plays in the Giants vs. Eagles game.

Stats, Inc. has credited Carr with 3 poorly thrown balls on 82 attempts (3.6%)--Peyton has 14 on 110 (12.7%)--Eli has 16 on 113 (14%)--Palmer has 6 on 85 (7%)--you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

Hey what is the link for Stats, Inc. ???

texan279
09-29-2006, 09:04 AM
Are you being sarcastic, or do we have 12 touchdowns somewhere that I'm not counting?? 12 field goals?? any combination of the two??

12 drives, not scoring drives, but drives. 12 drives in the 2nd and 3rd quarter all season, and in those drives there were 4 offensive penalties, 3 sacks, and we had 2 fumbles that we recovered, I do not see where you are getting that we are killing ourselves on possessions in the 2nd and 3rd quarters with sacks, penalties, and fumbles.

chuckm
09-29-2006, 09:09 AM
I'm just sitting here watching the replay of the Steelers/Bengals game on NFL Network. Carson Palmer had 3 fumbles and 2 INT's. Roethlesbooger threw 3 INT's in the game. Just a little food for thought...

You guys know that I'm no Carr apologist, far from it. But I think that we're seeing the guy transform into an average NFL QB. We all know his TD/INT numbers and QB rating, but I think the biggest difference is his abitlity to get the ball downfield. He already has 8 passes for 20+ and 2 passes for 40+. Last year he had 18 and 2 respectively.

I'm not saying that we absolutely shouldn't draft Brady Quinn, but there is some doubt.

So this is one of two things, IMO

1) you're changing tactics from an all out assault to damning with faint praise (ala some of the more cough cough "respected" posters)

or

2) you're posturing yourself so that you can say "See I told you he was "transforming" if he in fact continues to make progress .... of course if he doesn't there's always the fallback position of the past 3 years

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 09:12 AM
That's horse crap. Every single QB in the NFL makes less than ideal throws--that's how you get highlight catches by WR's--they're impressive because the WR's are adjusting to less than ideally thrown balls. Example--Plaxico running tip drills with himself to make two of the most important plays in the Giants vs. Eagles game.

Stats, Inc. has credited Carr with 3 poorly thrown balls on 82 attempts (3.6%)--Peyton has 14 on 110 (12.7%)--Eli has 16 on 113 (14%)--Palmer has 6 on 85 (7%)--you are barking up the wrong tree on this one.

Again, I'm not saying Carr Sucked....... I'm not saying we should bench Carr.... I'm not saying we are loosing because of David Carr.

I'm saying on that one pass, I'm talking about that Andre's dropped, one that Bruenner dropped, and one that Owens had dropped, had they made the catch, then they made great plays........ as recievers. Had Carr put the ball where it was supposed to have been(in front of the reciever)..... like the one in the Denver game, where he had AJ with a step, and to the inside(Less air, ahead of the reciever)..... or the one against Washington where he had AJ running up the middle of the field, with a step, to the outside, or Walter in the endzone, he's got the corner beat, and he's on the outside..... all those balls were underthrown..... the reciever could have made an amazing play to make the catch, or David could've put it where it needed to be, if Carr makes those throws, he changes the game.. there's no doubt in my mind that he can make those throws, but he's made the wrong decision again, and again, and again.

Those are the kinds of things I'm hoping Kubiak fixes.... those are the things that I'll be looking at when I judge his progress. Those are the things he hasn't been doing consistently since he came into the league......

Against Philly, the first touchdown pass to Moulds.... that was an excellent throw.... he was on the run, he put it up there for Eric to get, to make a play. The pass he made to Cook, where Wiegart got called for the hold.... he hit Cook in a soft spot in the zone...... excellent throw.

The first touchdown against Washington.... he was wide open, Vince Young could've made that throw. I'm glad he did it. Don't get me wrong. I just don't think it was a big deal.

I think Kubiak is doing a great job..... I was surprised to see David attempt that throw to Jameel. I don't think he's playing scared..... hasn't, since the Broncos game.

Now when he gets up from a sack, he forgets it....... he didn't do that against Philly, and he didn't do that against Indy. Watch his feet, how he drops back before and after the sack....... very little difference in the Washington game....... but then he only had one sack....

How many times was he hurried??

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 09:18 AM
12 drives, not scoring drives, but drives. 12 drives in the 2nd and 3rd quarter all season, and in those drives there were 4 offensive penalties, 3 sacks, and we had 2 fumbles that we recovered, I do not see where you are getting that we are killing ourselves on possessions in the 2nd and 3rd quarters with sacks, penalties, and fumbles.

Oh...... I see. You think it's simply bad play by the QB that's been killing our drive.

No, sorry, can't agree with you there.

We only get 3 real opportunities to advance the ball 10 yards. A fumble takes one of those opportunities away. Well, it's not the most efficient way to advance the ball.

Sacks........ kinda like the fumble..... you loose the opportunity to advance the ball...

12 penalties...... that's 60 yards for false starts... five yards. throw a couple of unsportsman likes in there, and that's 80 yards that we have to overcome, when we only avg 270(??) yds of offense... that's nearly a third.

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 09:22 AM
So this is one of two things, IMO

1) you're changing tactics from an all out assault to damning with faint praise (ala some of the more cough cough "respected" posters)

or


2) you're posturing yourself so that you can say "See I told you he was "transforming" if he in fact continues to make progress .... of course if he doesn't theres always the fallback position of the past 3 years

:confused:

:spy:

infantrycak
09-29-2006, 09:22 AM
Hey what is the link for Stats, Inc. ???

Stats, Inc. (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/index.asp)

texan279
09-29-2006, 09:28 AM
Oh...... I see. You think it's simply bad play by the QB that's been killing our drive.

No, sorry, can't agree with you there.

We only get 3 real opportunities to advance the ball 10 yards. A fumble takes one of those opportunities away. Well, it's not the most efficient way to advance the ball.

Sacks........ kinda like the fumble..... you loose the opportunity to advance the ball...

12 penalties...... that's 60 yards for false starts... five yards. throw a couple of unsportsman likes in there, and that's 80 yards that we have to overcome, when we only avg 270(??) yds of offense... that's nearly a third.

No actually I think Carr and the receivers are the bright spot of the offense at this point. Our running game has been far from great for one. Gado hasn't become the saviour or even starter that some thought he would (I am still upset about that trade). Our offense is second to last in the league in time of possession. Our defense couldn't stop a high school offense at this point. Our problems are due to a lack of a running game and horrible defensive play.

chuckm
09-29-2006, 09:33 AM
Stats, Inc. (http://snap.stats.com/snap/pfw/nfl/index.asp)

So that's your secret weapon huh?

Runner
09-29-2006, 09:45 AM
He's been hitting Andre's back shoulder.... not a bad throw for an avg NFL QB. Not the kind of thing an elite QB does on a regular basis.


I see that more people are cathcing onto the damning with faint praise bit now, but I will comment on this. I think if the throw is within the framework of the receivers body it was a pretty good throw.

chuckm
09-29-2006, 09:56 AM
I see that more people are cathcing onto the damning with faint praise bit now, but I will comment on this. I think if the throw is within the framework of the receivers body it was a pretty good throw.

no way .... He's paid millions of dollars ... he should be able to throw a football through a bicycle tire hanging from a tree at 40 yards while being chased by 300lb men .... or else ... :rolleyes:

Runner
09-29-2006, 09:59 AM
no way .... He's paid millions of dollars ... he should be able to throw a football through a bicycle tire hanging from a tree at 40 yards while being chased by 300lb men .... or else ... :rolleyes:


Maybe. Is the tree moving?

chuckm
09-29-2006, 10:02 AM
Maybe. Is the tree moving?

Ok let me rephase Mr. Helper ...

no way .... He's paid millions of dollars ... he should be able to throw a football through a bicycle tire hanging from a tree at 40 yards, during a hurricane, while being chased by 300lb men .... or else ... :rolleyes:

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 10:12 AM
No actually I think Carr and the receivers are the bright spot of the offense at this point. Our running game has been far from great for one. Gado hasn't become the saviour or even starter that some thought he would (I am still upset about that trade). Our offense is second to last in the league in time of possession. Our defense couldn't stop a high school offense at this point. Our problems are due to a lack of a running game and horrible defensive play.

Dayne has been doing pretty good running the ball. He's avg'd 4.1 yds/carry against Washington, then had one catch for 13 yards. But with the situation we've been finding ourselves in, you really can't say how good/bad our running game is. AFAIK, we haven't asked our RBs to get us a first down on anything short of 3rd & 9, and they come up short.

This is from the play-by-play on NFL.com

Houston Texans at 14:45
1-10-HOU29 (14:45) D.Carr FUMBLES (Aborted) at HST 29, and recovers at HST 29.
2-11-HOU29 (14:20) D.Carr pass incomplete to R.Dayne (L.Marshall).
3-11-HOU29 (14:13) D.Carr pass incomplete to A.Johnson.
PENALTY on WAS-M.Rumph, Illegal Use of Hands, 5 yards, enforced at HST 29 - No Play.
1-10-HOU34 (14:02) R.Dayne left end to HST 37 for 3 yards (A.Montgomery).
PENALTY on WAS-W.Holdman, Face Mask (5 Yards), 5 yards, enforced at HST 37.
1-2-HOU42 (13:40) D.Carr pass incomplete deep middle to A.Johnson (C.Rogers).
2-2-HOU42 (13:39) R.Dayne up the middle to HST 49 for 7 yards (M.Washington, L.Marshall).
1-10-HOU49 (13:10) R.Dayne right guard to WAS 47 for 4 yards (C.Griffin).
2-6-WAS47 (13:10) PENALTY on HST-C.Pitts, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at WAS 47 - No Play.
2-11-HOU48 (12:18) R.Dayne right end to WAS 45 for 7 yards (W.Holdman).
3-4-WAS45 (11:36) D.Carr pass incomplete short left to O.Daniels (M.Washington).
4-4-WAS45 (11:29) C.Stanley punts 35 yards to WAS 10, Center-B.Pittman, fair catch by A.Randle El. (Punt hang time 5.4 seconds.)


WHat killed this drive?? was it the run game??

Washington Redskins at 11:20
1-10-WAS10 (11:20) M.Brunell pass to M.Sellers to WAS 11 for 1 yard (D.Robinson).
2-9-WAS11 (10:38) M.Brunell pass to M.Sellers to WAS 14 for 3 yards (L.Sanders, M.Greenwood).
3-6-WAS14 (9:52) (Shotgun) M.Brunell pass short middle to C.Portis to WAS 18 for 4 yards (M.Greenwood).
4-2-WAS18 (9:18) D.Frost punts 60 yards to HST 22, Center-E.Albright. P.Buchanon ran ob at HST 29 for 7 yards (J.Thrash). (Punt hang time 4.7 seconds.)


This is one of those 3 & out thingies they are talking about when they say our defense can't stop anyone. This is actually the second stop of Washington's first four possessions.
Houston Texans at 09:04
1-10-HOU29 (9:04) R.Dayne right guard to HST 34 for 5 yards (D.Evans).
2-5-HOU34 (8:29) D.Carr pass short left to E.Moulds to HST 40 for 6 yards (C.Rogers).
1-10-HOU40 (7:56) R.Dayne right tackle to HST 40 for no gain (C.Griffin; M.Washington).
2-10-HOU40 (7:25) D.Carr pass incomplete short right to O.Daniels (A.Archuleta).
3-10-HOU40 (7:18) D.Carr pass to A.Johnson pushed ob at 50 for 10 yards (C.Rogers).
1-10-50 (6:50) PENALTY on HST-Z.Wiegert, Offensive Holding, 10 yards, enforced at 50 - No Play.
1-20-HOU40 (6:18) D.Carr pass short left to J.Putzier to WAS 48 for 12 yards (L.Marshall, C.Rogers).
2-8-WAS48 (5:45) S.Gado left guard to WAS 48 for no gain (W.Holdman).
3-8-WAS48 (5:07) D.Carr pass incomplete to E.Moulds (M.Washington). WAS-A.Carter was injured during the play.
4-8-WAS48 (5:02) C.Stanley punts 34 yards to WAS 14, Center-B.Pittman. A.Randle El pushed ob at WAS 18 for 4 yards (J.Simmons). (Punt hang time 4.4 seconds.)

What killed this drive??

chuckm
09-29-2006, 10:13 AM
TK, if we all agree that you're right will you come down from the ledge?

Runner
09-29-2006, 10:15 AM
Ok let me rephase Mr. Helper ...

no way .... He's paid millions of dollars ... he should be able to throw a football through a bicycle tire hanging from a tree at 40 yards, during a hurricane, while being chased by 300lb men .... or else ... :rolleyes:

I'm still not clear. What is the category of the hurricane? Is the tree swaying in the breeze or has it been ripped out by the roots and is swirling around?

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 10:16 AM
Ok let me rephase Mr. Helper ...

no way .... He's paid millions of dollars ... he should be able to throw a football through a bicycle tire hanging from a tree at 40 yards, during a hurricane, while being chased by 300lb men .... or else ... :rolleyes:

That would definitely make him a great QB in my book.

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 10:17 AM
TK, if we all agree that you're right will you come down from the ledge?

First you got to tell me what I'm right about.......

chuckm
09-29-2006, 10:17 AM
I'm still not clear. What is the category of the hurricane? Is the tree swaying in the breeze or has it been ripped out by the roots and is swirling around?

You're officially downgraded to "Rookie Moderator WITHOUT Upside"

chuckm
09-29-2006, 10:18 AM
First you got to tell me what I'm right about.......

deals off then ... carry on

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 10:23 AM
deals off then ... carry on

cool.


I only say that, because it sounds to me, that you're trying to put me in the group that says David can't do anything right.

I'm saying our offense has a problem staying on the field. It's not our running game....... it really never has been.

chuckm
09-29-2006, 10:25 AM
cool.


I only say that, because it sounds to me, that you're trying to put me in the group that says David can't do anything right.

I'm saying our offense has a problem staying on the field. It's not our running game....... it really never has been.

My friend, I'm just messing with you ....

I sit here day after day and see rants about stuff that just make me shake my head .....


a little humor goes a long way sometimes

infantrycak
09-29-2006, 10:32 AM
What killed this drive??

Well I suspect Kubiak would say it was a combination of (1) a penalty negating a 25 yd reception and putting the Texans in 1st and 20--a net loss of 35 yds of field position, (2) a run game that didn't assist by cutting 3rd down from a long situation to short and (3) a good play by Marcus Washington jumping the pass to Moulds. With game tape he might add Carr's decision on where to throw if he sees another option open.

texan279
09-29-2006, 10:33 AM
Dayne has been doing pretty good running the ball. He's avg'd 4.1 yds/carry against Washington, then had one catch for 13 yards. But with the situation we've been finding ourselves in, you really can't say how good/bad our running game is. AFAIK, we haven't asked our RBs to get us a first down on anything short of 3rd & 9, and they come up short.

This is from the play-by-play on NFL.com


WHat killed this drive?? was it the run game??



This is one of those 3 & out thingies they are talking about when they say our defense can't stop anyone. This is actually the second stop of Washington's first four possessions.


What killed this drive??

You claimed earlier that fumbles, penalties, and sacks were killing our drives, yet on those drives you posted there was one fumble by Carr that was recovered by Carr for no gain, no sacks, and one penalty. I do not see any fumble, penalty, or sack that killed those drives. And our rushing offense as a whole is ranked 25th in the NFL right now as far as total yards and average yards per game. And I still do not believe any of the backs on the roster right now are the answer at running back, Dayne seems like he can get the job done, I do not know about the rest of them though. At this point I'd bring in Chris Taylor and see what he can do.

Texans_Chick
09-29-2006, 10:38 AM
Carr is a good QB. Not a consistent probowler by any means, but he's good enough to keep his job and good enough to not create a QB controversy. I see him as a slightly worse Drew Brees. And guess what? He's only going to get better from here on out. There are 2 things that I don't like about him though:

1) Center-snap exchange. Hey, this has always been a problem, not just the pass few weeks. I'm not sure who's falt it is, but that crap's got to stop. It has always happened throughout his career, and it's easy to just pass it off as "hey, it happens sometimes." No, it shouldn't happen. Ever.



Here is a blog post that discusses a reason for this. "David Carr and the Reason for Mishandled Snaps (http://texans.aolsportsblog.com/2006/09/26/david-carr-and-the-reason-for-mishandled-snaps/) I am not sure how aware the coaching staff is of this. The first exchange was blamed by coach on Hodgdon for snapping off cadence, which is the obvious reason for the mishandled snap, but maybe not the only one.

Gives you something to look for on the TiVO. (hopefully only past games)

The thing I find interesting is how much the players love the offensive system when they talk about it, and how much more confidence they have in it. And as someone watching them, you can see if they can stop doing the stupid stuff (mishandled snaps, false starts at home, and getting into long yardage because of the mistakes, etc), this could be something really fun to watch, if the Texans defense can get the **** off the field on third down.

texan279
09-29-2006, 10:42 AM
Dayne has been doing pretty good running the ball. He's avg'd 4.1 yds/carry against Washington, then had one catch for 13 yards. But with the situation we've been finding ourselves in, you really can't say how good/bad our running game is. AFAIK, we haven't asked our RBs to get us a first down on anything short of 3rd & 9, and they come up short.

This is from the play-by-play on NFL.com


WHat killed this drive?? was it the run game??



This is one of those 3 & out thingies they are talking about when they say our defense can't stop anyone. This is actually the second stop of Washington's first four possessions.


What killed this drive??

But overall in the game Washington scored 5 times out of 11 possessions, and Washington owned the 1st, 3rd, and 4th quarter as far as time of possession, 31 minutes and 14 seconds out of 45 minutes the Redskins offense was on the field in those quarters. They ran our defense into the ground. And in the game Washington had 4 drives that were longer than 5 minutes each, and two of those were longer than 8 minutes.

Texans_Chick
09-29-2006, 10:46 AM
Ok let me rephase Mr. Helper ...

no way .... He's paid millions of dollars ... he should be able to throw a football through a bicycle tire hanging from a tree at 40 yards, during a hurricane, while being chased by 300lb men .... or else ... :rolleyes:

You know, I think they have drugs that can help with that sort of thing.

http://images.usatoday.com/news/_photos/2005/02/15/levitra-inside.jpg

wags
09-29-2006, 10:46 AM
this could be something really fun to watch, if the Texans defense can get the **** off the field on third down.


Hell hath no fury like a pissed chick who roots for the Texans.

Runner
09-29-2006, 11:10 AM
deals off then ... carry on

Somebody has been watching Project Runway...

chuckm
09-29-2006, 11:15 AM
Somebody has been watching Project Runway...

Hahaha only in passing and to keep marital bliss ...

Runner
09-29-2006, 11:18 AM
Hahaha only in passing and to keep marital bliss ...

My money has been on Uli since the beginning.


Crap. Was that out loud?

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 11:20 AM
Well I suspect Kubiak would say it was a combination of (1) a penalty negating a 25 yd reception and putting the Texans in 1st and 20--a net loss of 35 yds of field position, (2) a run game that didn't assist by cutting 3rd down from a long situation to short and (3) a good play by Marcus Washington jumping the pass to Moulds. With game tape he might add Carr's decision on where to throw if he sees another option open.

Yep.......... that's about the way I see it.

You claimed earlier that fumbles, penalties, and sacks were killing our drives, yet on those drives you posted there was one fumble by Carr that was recovered by Carr for no gain, no sacks, and one penalty. I do not see any fumble, penalty, or sack that killed those drives. And our rushing offense as a whole is ranked 25th in the NFL right now as far as total yards and average yards per game. And I still do not believe any of the backs on the roster right now are the answer at running back, Dayne seems like he can get the job done, I do not know about the rest of them though. At this point I'd bring in Chris Taylor and see what he can do.

We can do the whole game if you'd like....... you'll see more of the same when Our offense gets the ball.

& I find it odd that the only position demanding personnel(sp) changes is the RB, when they are doing pretty darn good for what we are asking them to do.


....The thing I find interesting is how much the players love the offensive system when they talk about it, and how much more confidence they have in it. And as someone watching them, you can see if they can stop doing the stupid stuff (mishandled snaps, false starts at home, and getting into long yardage because of the mistakes, etc), this could be something really fun to watch.......

I thought I was the only one who could see it.

Texans Horror
09-29-2006, 11:25 AM
Interesting Project Runway should be brought up. I was sent this interesting article on the type of men who watch the show. The gist of the article is that while men enjoy watching Project Runway, the only kind who watch tend to be the " beer-slugging, football-watching" kind of men. I think that says a lot about the type of men here who do not watch Project Runway.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/living/2003276424_projectrunway27.html

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 11:42 AM
But overall in the game Washington scored 5 times out of 11 possessions, and Washington owned the 1st, 3rd, and 4th quarter as far as time of possession, 31 minutes and 14 seconds out of 45 minutes the Redskins offense was on the field in those quarters. They ran our defense into the ground. And in the game Washington had 4 drives that were longer than 5 minutes each, and two of those were longer than 8 minutes.

OUr defense gave our offense the ball twice when the score was 14-7..... they did nothing with it.... not only did they not score, they didn't move down the field, & they didn't take the opportunity to run their defense into the ground. our first possession was 1:20 cool, since we got a touchdown.

Then we fumbled & gave up a sack...... our run game got us 14 yards on 2 carries..... all inside of 2:52.

OUr next possession.... 10 plays + Punt.... 3:25. We Fumble the ball(recovered it, but we lost the down. then we have a false start penalty.

OUr next possession.. 9 plays+Punt.... 4:14 seconds.... Our run game not very productive 3 carries for 5 yards.. we complete 3 of 5 for 28 yards, and we have a holding penalty for 10 yards(IIRC this negated the very nice throw of David's to Cook.... a precision pass).

And that's the half.

We start the third Qtr with the ball. (you know your defense sucks, so let's try to keep them off the field, but what do we do??)

RonDayne runs for 2 yards, then we have 2 incomplete passes. Punt 0:50

next possession.... 2 carries for 2 yards (but we pick up the first down). David's perfect, 5 for 5 for 39 yards..... until he fumbles the ball.... 3:40

next possession..... touchdown, 2:02

Next possession.. INT 2:11

Our defense isn't doing a very good job of getting off the fiel...... I'm not arguing that, never have. My problem, is that our offense isn't doing a good enough job to stay on the field....... Call it our running game if you want. Ignore the fumbles, and the penalties...... that's cool..... I guess.

I'm just sayin.

infantrycak
09-29-2006, 11:42 AM
& I find it odd that the only position demanding personnel(sp) changes is the RB, when they are doing pretty darn good for what we are asking them to do.

Dayne is averaging 3.8 ypc. Lundy has averaged 3.4 ypc. Gado has a nice average of 4.8 ypc but that is fool's gold as he has a total of 29 yds with a long of 27 yds--basically he has had one good play and the rest he has been stuffed. The running game needs to be able to get the Texans into 3rd and 1 or 2 more often. No that isn't the only problem on the O, but it isn't a non-problem either as you seem to be asserting.

Texans_Chick
09-29-2006, 11:52 AM
Dayne is averaging 3.8 ypc. Lundy has averaged 3.4 ypc. Gado has a nice average of 4.8 ypc but that is fool's gold as he has a total of 29 yds with a long of 27 yds--basically he has had one good play and the rest he has been stuffed. The running game needs to be able to get the Texans into 3rd and 1 or 2 more often. No that isn't the only problem on the O, but it isn't a non-problem either as you seem to be asserting.

For me, the running game is in the question mark list. It is not realistic to think that the Texans will be able to keep scoring only by throwing the ball without the run given how this offense is designed.

The Texans haven't been able to put up big yards running the ball in the regular season yet. That is a problem. You've seen some good things, and some not so good things, but nothing that makes you say, whew, we don't need to worry about the running game.

If the defense is merely ordinarily bad or average this week, we will be able to see if the Texans can run. If the defense maintains its catastrophic status, you are not gonna get enough carries for your backs.

TK_Gamer
09-29-2006, 11:56 AM
oh come on thunder, just say it, we all know you want to, you have done soooooo well but it really drags the thread out when you dont actually say it.

Honoring Earl 34
09-29-2006, 12:05 PM
Their are times in a game that you've got to have somebody step up and make a play . If your losing 14-7 its time ... on a 3rd and 8 , I don't care how we got there be it fumble , penalty , tackle for a loss , it does'nt matter to a good team . This is why Kubiak says no excuses and wants character guys . Winners don't need an excuse .

This is what TK is saying I guess is that the Texans have a nasty little habit of self destructing ... a trait of a bad team . The question to me is how long is this tolerated ? Will an OL be benched fror a false start on a crucial drive , or a missed block by a RB , or a fumble by the QB . Its time to burn the barn to kill the rats . Once again until we stop this we're a bad team with players who are'nt mentally where they need to be .

jmerog
09-29-2006, 12:22 PM
Carr has one fumble, hes not dropping the ball like Kurt Warner, so what are you talking about, 90% of the time the sacks are the o-lines fault and how many penalties has Carr had personaly. What does he hae to do with that.


And as far as incompletions are concerned, Carr is completing 60% of his passes which is good for any NFL QB and that is against 3 of the most talented secondaries in the NFL.

Lets see who he faced:

Michael Lewis
Lito Sheppard
Brian Dawkins
Bob Sanders
Mike Doss
Nick Harper
Adam Archuleta
Carlos Rogers
Sean Taylor

Those are arguably some of the best DBs in the NFL not to mention that he had to worry about Dwight Freeny, Robert Mathis, Jevon Kearse, Darren Howard, Jeramaih Trotter(Blitzing). All this and has stil completed 60% of his passes and has 6 TDs. WITH NO RUNNING GAME

Whats with all of these silly facts? everyone knows Carr sucks and he hates puppies. just kidding.

Way to put things into perspective. Carr is playing well and against stiff competition.

Keep coming strong with the reason alerts. Rep coming your way

Hulk75
09-29-2006, 12:22 PM
Some have, some haven't.

I still think that QB is somewhat of a problem. Carr is not a leader and makes a lot of mistakes, but he is making strides to become an average QB.

Some haven't? Well for the ones that dont think our defense giving up 500 yards a game is not the problem and still think it is the QB, then they must be drunk, high or not know what they are looking at.

Tell you one thing if our D can get us more then 3 3 and outs a game the n Carrs stats will be even better and our record, its a fact.

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 12:44 PM
Dayne is averaging 3.8 ypc. Lundy has averaged 3.4 ypc. Gado has a nice average of 4.8 ypc but that is fool's gold as he has a total of 29 yds with a long of 27 yds--basically he has had one good play and the rest he has been stuffed. The running game needs to be able to get the Texans into 3rd and 1 or 2 more often. No that isn't the only problem on the O, but it isn't a non-problem either as you seem to be asserting.

In his only game as our "starter", his only game after beeing(sp) in Houston for more than 2 weeks, he's avg'd 4.1ypc....... that looks pretty good to me.

Gado didn't play particularly well against Washington...... he also might look better had he been in OTAs, TC, or even the preseason with this team


If the defense is merely ordinarily bad or average this week, we will be able to see if the Texans can run. If the defense maintains its catastrophic status, you are not gonna get enough carries for your backs.

I feel like we're soulmates..........

there's definitely a connection here.

do you feel it??



oh come on thunder, just say it, we all know you want to, you have done soooooo well but it really drags the thread out when you dont actually say it.

I love David Carr..... he's progressing very well, much better/faster than I imagined. It's only a matter time, before that light bulb comes on, and this NFL stuff starts to look real slow to him.



Their are times in a game that you've got to have somebody step up and make a play . If your losing 14-7 its time ... on a 3rd and 8 , I don't care how we got there be it fumble , penalty , tackle for a loss , it does'nt matter to a good team . This is why Kubiak says no excuses and wants character guys . Winners don't need an excuse .

This is what TK is saying I guess is that the Texans have a nasty little habit of self destructing ... a trait of a bad team . The question to me is how long is this tolerated ? Will an OL be benched fror a false start on a crucial drive , or a missed block by a RB , or a fumble by the QB . Its time to burn the barn to kill the rats . Once again until we stop this we're a bad team with players who are'nt mentally where they need to be .

More or less......

to me, this is looking a bit Wag the Dog. Kubiak is an offensive minded coach, and David is playing better... but not very good, unless you considered his 2004 season very good. He's playing at that level now(if you ask me), and there ain't nothing wrong with saying that, I don't think. That's where his progression left off, and a good spot for Kubiak to take him further.... to where he needs to be, if we're going to keep comparing him to Elway, or if we want him to be more than JakePlummer(which I do want, and think he is more than capable of).

Our Defense sucks...... well, so does our offense. Both sides need to get better. While I understand we are still learning on Offense, the same can be said about our defense. We can't get the other team off the field on third down, and our offense can't seem to make it to third down.

I've also mentioned a few situations were David had the opportunity to do something incredible, to make a play, to be the hero that he came up short.... running out of bounds before picking up the first, throwing the quick slant to AJ in the endzone, as a man came untouched at him, throwing the ball over Walter so he can make that catch, and score a touchdown.....

No, none of that stuff is easy, but those are the plays that he has got to make somewhat more consistently to be the kind of QB we talk about, when we say David needs to get better. The Rothlisberger, the Leftwich's the Delhommes, the Palmers & the Mannings.

I think David has got the talent to compete on that level, I don't think he has so far in his 4 year career...... & I'm hoping Kubiak will get him there.... to the SteveYoung level, and not the JakePlummer, or the BrianGriese level.

HOU-TEX
09-29-2006, 01:03 PM
In his only game as our "starter", his only game after beeing(sp) in Houston for more than 2 weeks, he's avg'd 4.1ypc....... that looks pretty good to me.

Gado didn't play particularly well against Washington...... he also might look better had he been in OTAs, TC, or even the preseason with this team.

Dude! The guy had achance to run the ball 1 time in the game. You're basing his performance off 1 run. LOL! That's funny! I told ya'll TK was funny.:bananasplit:

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 01:10 PM
Dude! The guy had achance to run the ball 1 time in the game. You're basing his performance off 1 run. LOL! That's funny! I told ya'll TK was funny.:bananasplit:

uhh.... I wasn't trying to be funny......

I was trying to defend him.

HOU-TEX
09-29-2006, 01:30 PM
uhh.... I wasn't trying to be funny......

I was trying to defend him.

Gado didn't play particularly well against Washington

Saying this and him having only 1 carry is not defending him. Defending would be what I'm doing now. That's why I thought it was funny. Oh well, nevermind

utahmark
09-29-2006, 02:40 PM
We had four possesions in the first half, Washington had five. We had four possessions in the second half, Washington had three....


you cant compare how many times we get the ball to the team we are playing. it will always be equal or one team gets one extra possesion. you have to compare time of possesion. or compare ave possesions per game for the leage.

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 02:45 PM
you cant compare how many times we get the ball to the team we are playing. it will always be equal or one team gets one extra possesion.
you have to compare time of possesion. or compare ave possesions per game for the leage.

If our offense had not fumbled the ball, or put themselves in third and long, they could have got first downs, they could have stayed on the field longer.

The time in a football game is finite. Meaning if one team has the ball longer, the other teams time of possesion goes down.

We had just as many opportunities to score, and just as many opportunities to take time off the clock.

we scored on 2 out of 8 possessions..... taking less than 2 minutes off the clock each time.

long sustained drives.... that's what we need to work on on offense.

it will help our defense.

it will help our team.

it will help our chances of winning if we control the ball more than what we have been, when given the opportunity.

& we should have got the extra posession. we stopped their first drive, & we had the ball first after halftime.

Vinny
09-29-2006, 03:11 PM
BTW, we scored first in 2 of 3 games, how long did it take the other team to tie the score up, that's my point. IT'S ALL ABOUT DEFENSE!!
It's about both. Take out the scripted drives and garbage time and it is clear to see that our team is clearly in shambles.

The Texans marched down the field to game-opening touchdowns in both home games to take 7-0 leads, only to be outscored 42-3 by the Eagles and Redskins combined in the second and third quarters.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/4223344.html

infantrycak
09-29-2006, 03:14 PM
Take out the scripted drives

Why would you take out the scripted drives?

Vinny
09-29-2006, 03:16 PM
Why would you take out the scripted drives?We have no ability to improvise at all. Take away the scripted drives and you are left with 3 points offensive production thru 3 games kicking out garbage time in the 4th. Teams are clearly whipping the crap out of us after teams adjust to the game plan.

jerek
09-29-2006, 03:26 PM
To my knowledge just about every offense, successful or no, opens the game with the first 15-20 plays drawn out ahead of time.

Never get the "it's garbage time, it doesn't count" schtick. On most of those late scoring drives the starters have remained in and the playcalling hasn't just gone prevent.

infantrycak
09-29-2006, 03:31 PM
We have no ability to improvise at all. Take away the scripted drives and you are left with 3 points offensive production thru 3 games kicking out garbage time in the 4th. Teams are clearly whipping the crap out of us after teams adjust to the game plan.

I think the dreaded word execution has more to do with it--they keep killing themselves with a variety of mistakes like Wiegert drawing the holding well away from Carr nullifying a 25 yd gain--a net loss of 35 yds--Lundy fumbling after they moved pretty well down the field--Carr fumbling after they have moved 50 yds. Those drive killers seem more a result of poor play then adjustments to the game plan by the opposing teams.

Vinny
09-29-2006, 03:35 PM
To my knowledge just about every offense, successful or no, opens the game with the first 15-20 plays drawn out ahead of time.

Never get the "it's garbage time, it doesn't count" schtick. On most of those late scoring drives the starters have remained in and the playcalling hasn't just gone prevent.
Defenses do not play the same when they are up 21 points in the 4th quarter. I've been watching football in parts of 4 decades...and that has never changed. Teams give up underneath passes and force offenses to dink up the field as they keep the play in front of them (ie they don't play near as tight). This gives the other teams QB great stats....just look at Aaron Brooks over the years. He has been a great fantasy QB on the back of garbage time over the years and not because he was a special qb.

jerek
09-29-2006, 03:50 PM
Defenses do not play the same when they are up 21 points in the 4th quarter. I've been watching football in parts of 4 decades...and that has never changed. Teams give up underneath passes and force offenses to dink up the field as they keep the play in front of them (ie they don't play near as tight). This gives the other teams QB great stats....just look at Aaron Brooks over the years. He has been a great fantasy QB on the back of garbage time over the years and not because he was a special qb.

It's true that they tend to back off and that that is primarily where Carr's passes have gone late in the game -- short yardage -- but IMO Carr has still played well in the circumstances and has still produced in "unscripted" moments.

As cak pointed out many of our otherwise successful drives have been stalled not necessarily by Carr's mistakes (though the fumbles have hurt) but by poor execution across the offense -- fumbles, dropped balls, costly penalties, etc. In watching tape I've seen him occasionally miss open receivers or make poor decisions but not nearly to the degree that's still being suggested around here. When our defense can't seem to keep anyone out of the endzone, it's easier to scheme for the inevitable passing game from the second quarter onward.

To be sure Carr isn't all that and he's made his own share of mistakes that his high passer rating numbers don't necessarily reflect. JMO that people are writing off a few too many of his plays as garbage time.

Vinny
09-29-2006, 03:55 PM
Sure DC is "getting better" but "getting better" doesn't mean he is getting it done. Q: How about QB David Carrís ratings so far this season?
Kubiak: ďI donít think you can lose sight that heís done some good things. But some things that happened to him that cost us football games, too. Those are the things weíve got to correct first. Davidís heading in the right direction, as a player heís getting better. But like we said from the start just getting better sometimes isnít always the answer. Youíve got to go to great pretty quick.

infantrycak
09-29-2006, 04:05 PM
As cak pointed out many of our otherwise successful drives have been stalled not necessarily by Carr's mistakes (though the fumbles have hurt) but by poor execution across the offense

I just want to clarify my point wasn't about Carr but that the O seemed IMO to be shooting itself in the foot thru a spectrum of problems more than that the opposing D's were outscheming the Texans' OC which is what I thought Vinny was getting at.

chuckm
09-29-2006, 04:08 PM
We have no ability to improvise at all. Take away the scripted drives and you are left with 3 points offensive production thru 3 games kicking out garbage time in the 4th. Teams are clearly whipping the crap out of us after teams adjust to the game plan.

So during a scripted play, Carr has less room for improvisation than on any other play during the game?

Does Kubiak say, "During the scripted plays you will not audible?"

or when you say "we" do you mean Kubiak, Calhoun, Carr, et al?

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 05:17 PM
I think the dreaded word execution has more to do with it--they keep killing themselves with a variety of mistakes like Wiegert drawing the holding well away from Carr nullifying a 25 yd gain--a net loss of 35 yds--Lundy fumbling after they moved pretty well down the field--Carr fumbling after they have moved 50 yds. Those drive killers seem more a result of poor play then adjustments to the game plan by the opposing teams.

absolutely.

Defenses do not play the same when they are up 21 points in the 4th quarter. I've been watching football in parts of 4 decades...and that has never changed. Teams give up underneath passes and force offenses to dink up the field as they keep the play in front of them (ie they don't play near as tight). This gives the other teams QB great stats....just look at Aaron Brooks over the years. He has been a great fantasy QB on the back of garbage time over the years and not because he was a special qb.

Again, I agree. It's like playing your starters in Pre-Season. Unless you are on a young team, you know you got your job. You're a professional, so you're going to give 100%. But in a real game, a close game you give 110%

thunderkyss
09-29-2006, 05:22 PM
It's true that they tend to back off and that that is primarily where Carr's passes have gone late in the game -- short yardage -- but IMO Carr has still played well in the circumstances and has still produced in "unscripted" moments.

As cak pointed out many of our otherwise successful drives have been stalled not necessarily by Carr's mistakes (though the fumbles have hurt) but by poor execution across the offense -- fumbles, dropped balls, costly penalties, etc. In watching tape I've seen him occasionally miss open receivers or make poor decisions but not nearly to the degree that's still being suggested around here. When our defense can't seem to keep anyone out of the endzone, it's easier to scheme for the inevitable passing game from the second quarter onward.

To be sure Carr isn't all that and he's made his own share of mistakes that his high passer rating numbers don't necessarily reflect. JMO that people are writing off a few too many of his plays as garbage time.



Since I've been the most "vocally" critical about David in this thread, I'd like to respond, by restating, that I do not blame Carr for any part of our three losses, greater than that of any other player. I also believe David has been playing well.

I have pointed out opportunities for him to go above and beyond what an avg QB in the NFL is expected to do. If you are of the mind, that an avg QB is all we need, and you'd be perfectly happy if David never amounted to anything more than an avg QB, then I can understand where you & I would disagree.

K.D.
09-29-2006, 06:25 PM
I have pointed out opportunities for him to go above and beyond what an avg QB in the NFL is expected to do. If you are of the mind, that an avg QB is all we need, and you'd be perfectly happy if David never amounted to anything more than an avg QB, then I can understand where you & I would disagree.

I agree with what you are saying here, we do need Carr to be more than just an average QB. Given the situation that we are in RIGHT NOW, it wouldn't hurt for him to do more than what he is doing, although I am pleased with the progress he has made. On the contray, if we had a stiffling defense and a solid run game being average would be good enough. Prime example of this is Big Ben, when he had all aspects of the game clicking on all cylinders he was just average and won lots of games. Now that it is all up to him now, he's struggling and can't get it done. So the point I'm trying to make is until we get all 3 phases of the team together, Carr is going to be scrutinized for what he has done or what he should have done, the guy seems to be in a no-win situation with alot of fans. He may not be the perfect QB, but I'll go down with Carr any day of the week.:twocents:

utahmark
09-29-2006, 08:09 PM
& we should have got the extra posession. we stopped their first drive, & we had the ball first after halftime.

whether we stop them or not on their first drive has nothing to do with who gets an extra posession.

i dont think david is playing great and i know his qb rating is inflated. but i do think he is playing good. and most of what you criticize davad about are things most qb's do at some time or another it just isnt pointed out as much because their teams dont s@ck.