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TK_Gamer
09-28-2006, 04:33 AM
I just wanted to throw this out there because I've seen alot of people saying we shouldnt care about our bad defnese and we should just pile up points and make it a shoot out and hope for the best. This idea looks good on paper but it is inherently flawed when you look at the balance of the league vs our team. when you play a no holds barred, outscore the other team phillosophy you can usually be successfull if both yours and the the other teams defense is equatible, even if your both lousy. basicly nobody can stop anyone and you just race to see how many TD's/FG's you can put up or you try to get a TD when the other team settles for a FG. but when your defense is SO bad that your offense is only on the field half as much or less than the other team and they score on 65% to 75% of thier drives, the math just isnt in our favor. they use up the clock with a balanced attack and since they can convert on 3rd down they keep going down the field. then we take our 1/3 of the game and only score on 30% to 40% of our drives and we have no chance to catch up. even if we scored on all of our drives we would have a tough time. I'm not saying our offense is so perfect we dont need to improve. we need to improve as far as 3rd down coversions and penalties that kill a drive. but if we cant stop anyone on 3rd down they will ALLWAYS outscore us. so I'm hoping we get a defense or our offensive progress wont mean a thing.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 06:42 AM
I think we should not put sole responsibility for a loss on our defense, if we only score 15 points. Especially when they forced 2 punts..... one a 3 & out..... maybe 2, I can't remember.... forced a field goal, and a fumble that we failed to score on.........

Then when we have five 3 & outs, we shouldn't blame our defense for not giving the offense enough opportunity to put points on the board, or for staying on the field too long.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 07:38 AM
It is true the entire team needs to improve and the team wins or loses as a team not as individuals or as units, but I would say that the defense needs to improve the most right now. Here is to hoping that they do improve.

all things being equal, we could have won both the Philly game, and the Washington game had we scored on just 50% of our drives......

Drives that we didn't get beat on by the defense, but we fumbled the ball away, or allowed too many sacks.........

I'm not putting the loss solely on the offense...... I undertsand our defense did not play well....... but on offense, other than the fumbled snaps(it's understandable with a new center & a QB who has fumbled the ball 60 times in 63 games)....... we lost that game more than Washington won it.

Like Throwing the ball underneath & to the inside when our reciever has a step to the outside....

Runner
09-28-2006, 08:34 AM
all things being equal, we could have won both the Philly game, and the Washington game had we scored on just 50% of our drives......



Is that all? Sounds easy. :rolleyes:

What is the league average?

Texans_Chick
09-28-2006, 09:06 AM
Is that all? Sounds easy. :rolleyes:

What is the league average?

In Madden or the NFL?

Runner
09-28-2006, 09:11 AM
In Madden or the NFL?

Crap. I miss so much since I never think to consider Madden during a professional football discussion. Now I just look clueless.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 09:56 AM
Is that all? Sounds easy. :rolleyes:

What is the league average?

All I'm saying, is they had 8 possessions(not counting the final kneel) & scored on 5.......

We had 8 possessions, &
scored twice.
ONe Possession was killed by a fumble.
One by an INT in the endzone(or pretty close),
one 3 & out,
One killed by a holding penalty
One a Fumble on Center to QB exchange led to a Max blitz sack, which led to a punt
ONe a fumble, then flase start, then a punt


We shot ourselves in the foot so many times, keeping our offense off the field, and putting the defense on. We forced two 3 & outs in the first half......

Held them to a F.G on one possession in the second half, and forced a fumble on another.

They only scored 10 points in the second half.....

We scored 7. We went 3 & out, fumbled, and threw an INT....

We gave up more than 21 points...... we failed on defense.

We didn't score more than 21 points..... we failed on offense.

But to say the defense lost us the game because they couldn't force 3 & outs is wrong.....

This game just like many last year, our defense was on the field way too long, because our offense couldn't stay on the field. Even our scoring drives were 1:20 & 2:29 seconds....... OUr longest drive was 4:14 seconds.... ended in a punt.

TK_Gamer
09-28-2006, 10:16 AM
not because we couldnt force 3 and outs, because we couldnt stop 3rd and whatever, whenever. one of the touchdowns were on 3rd and long. and one setup by 3rd and long. so it works both ways, you can twist the stats and numbers around all you want, you know it, we know it, the defense stunk, hell the whole friggin NFL watching , reading, listening world knows our defense is the worst in the league, what part of that do some of you not get?

No it's easier to blame David Carr and say hes not leading the offense, lol

TK_Gamer
09-28-2006, 10:23 AM
All I'm saying, is they had 8 possessions(not counting the final kneel) & scored on 5.......

We had 8 possessions, &
scored twice.
ONe Possession was killed by a fumble.
One by an INT in the endzone(or pretty close),
one 3 & out,
One killed by a holding penalty
One a Fumble on Center to QB exchange led to a Max blitz sack, which led to a punt
ONe a fumble, then flase start, then a punt


We shot ourselves in the foot so many times, keeping our offense off the field, and putting the defense on. We forced two 3 & outs in the first half......

Held them to a F.G on one possession in the second half, and forced a fumble on another.

They only scored 10 points in the second half.....

We scored 7. We went 3 & out, fumbled, and threw an INT....

We gave up more than 21 points...... we failed on defense.

We didn't score more than 21 points..... we failed on offense.

But to say the defense lost us the game because they couldn't force 3 & outs is wrong.....

This game just like many last year, our defense was on the field way too long, because our offense couldn't stay on the field. Even our scoring drives were 1:20 & 2:29 seconds....... OUr longest drive was 4:14 seconds.... ended in a punt.

because our offense couldnt stay on the field? are you kidding me? so yer really gonna tie the other teams offensive success to our offenses failure? listen to yourself for a moment. their offense scored more becuase we didnt take long enough on our drives? their offense scored more becuase WE DID NOT STOP THEM.

infantrycak
09-28-2006, 10:24 AM
But to say the defense lost us the game because they couldn't force 3 & outs is wrong.....

This game just like many last year, our defense was on the field way too long, because our offense couldn't stay on the field. Even our scoring drives were 1:20 & 2:29 seconds....... OUr longest drive was 4:14 seconds.... ended in a punt.

Why is it always the O's responsibility to keep the D off the field? Really 3 & outs aren't a problem?--we have forced 3 punts total this season. A D can lower the time of possession by ending drives, by ending them on the 1st set of downs instead of the 20th.

68.4%--that tells everything you need to know about this D--THEY can't get off the field and there is no passing the buck to anyone else for it. The O could assist the D by minimizing the time the D sucks, but the primary responsibility for the D sucking is on the D.

TK_Gamer
09-28-2006, 10:26 AM
ok, no, maybe it's this, we lost not becuase they scored more than we did , but becuase we scored less! eureka! it's a whole new ballgame now! woohoo!

eriadoc
09-28-2006, 10:26 AM
I don't know exactly what the league average is as far as scores per possession, but I am pretty sure it's a lot lower than 50%. In the Indy v. Jax game, for instance, the Colts had nine possessions and scored twice (they also scored a punt return TD). The Jags had ten possessions and scored twice, though they also missed two field goals. At any rate, I believe that's a lot more representative of a normal football game. Unless your team plays a defense like the Texans, they shouldn't be scoring on 50% of their drives. Even 40% would be remarkable.

Runner
09-28-2006, 10:29 AM
I don't know exactly what the league average is as far as scores per possession, but I am pretty sure it's a lot lower than 50%. In the Indy v. Jax game, for instance, the Colts had nine possessions and scored twice (they also scored a punt return TD). The Jags had ten possessions and scored twice, though they also missed two field goals. At any rate, I believe that's a lot more representative of a normal football game. Unless your team plays a defense like the Texans, they shouldn't be scoring on 50% of their drives. Even 40% would be remarkable.


Right. I wonder what the league average for red zone touchdowns is. Is that even 50%?

real
09-28-2006, 10:29 AM
Why is it always the O's responsibility to keep the D off the field? Really 3 & outs aren't a problem?--we have forced 3 punts total this season. A D can lower the time of possession by ending drives, by ending them on the 1st set of downs instead of the 20th.

68.4%--that tells everything you need to know about this D--THEY can't get off the field and there is no passing the buck to anyone else for it. The O could assist the D by minimizing the time the D sucks, but the primary responsibility for the D sucking is on the D.

yeah thats true....You can't really blame the offense for the defenses lack of success.....It's not like they give up a lot of late touchdowns...we have been pretty much dealt with by the third quater...So them being tired because our offense can't stay on the field shouldn't be that much of a reason....

TK_Gamer
09-28-2006, 10:30 AM
that is why i used 30% to 40% in my original post, that would be doing good, but nowhere near as good as we make the other team with our lousy defense.

TK_Gamer
09-28-2006, 10:32 AM
also , sorry but its our lousy defense thats leaving their offense on the field too long not our offense.

eriadoc
09-28-2006, 10:39 AM
Why is it always the O's responsibility to keep the D off the field? Really 3 & outs aren't a problem?--we have forced 3 punts total this season. A D can lower the time of possession by ending drives, by ending them on the 1st set of downs instead of the 20th.

68.4%--that tells everything you need to know about this D--THEY can't get off the field and there is no passing the buck to anyone else for it. The O could assist the D by minimizing the time the D sucks, but the primary responsibility for the D sucking is on the D.

They haven't been, really. The Texans have had 26 meaningful possessions this year (five seconds before the half-type possessions not counted). They've had 7 possessions where they went 3 & out or worse (fumble on opening drive vs. Indy, for instance). They've scored on 8 drives (6 TDs, 2 FGs). Of the remaining, I think I only saw one instance where the team simply failed to convert a normal 3-down set. Most every time, it was a turnover or penalty that killed the drive.

This offense has shown that it can move the ball. What it hasn't shown is the ability to be consistent and disciplined. That will come with time, I believe.

The defense really is that bad.

infantrycak
09-28-2006, 10:43 AM
They haven't been, really.

I was talking about the D forcing 3 and out's.

Nice quote from Ditka on the Texans' D--you almost have to try to give up that much yardage.

Runner
09-28-2006, 10:45 AM
Nice quote from Ditka on the Texans' D--you almost have to try to give up that much yardage.

Are you saying the Texans defense is in a conspiracy to look bad to try to force change in the team? That's what I'm hearing.

joke

TK_Gamer
09-28-2006, 10:50 AM
no It's our master plan..........I thought I went over this, richard smith hid the meaty part of the defensive game plan (with all the blitzes and smash mouth stuff) and we are gonna bring it out in the game that decides the worst record in the league, totally aniahliate the other team, and kubiak is gonna tell everyone "see we are NOT the worst team in football!"

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 12:24 PM
First of all, I'm not trying to pass the buck. OUr defense sucked....... For a variety of reasons.... one of those reasons, I think is because we couldn't sustain drives while we were on Offense.

we had 4 offensive possesions in the first half, totalling only 11:41.

We started the game forcing a 3 & out..... Defense Good.....

We score.... Offense Good.....

Defense allows a score...... Defense Bad.....

We get the ball & we fumble the snap, we allow a sack... punt..... offense Bad..

Defense allows a 74 yard 5:53 drive & a Touchdown...... Deffense Bad....

Score is 14-7

Offense... we fumble the snap... complete 0/4 passes.... we only move the ball because of the run game & a penalty.... Offense Bad. this possession only takes 3:25 off the clock.

Defense.... 3 & out...... give the ball right back to the offense with the same score......... Defense Good.

We complete 3 of 5 passes...... a holding penalty hurt us, 3 rushing attempts for 5 yards(no gain on two attempts)........ punt.... Offense Bad.

Now we are at 4:50 remaining in the first half...... our D Gives up another TD..... Defense Bad.

It's halftime, we've been outscored 28-7...... defensively, we've got to get better. Offensively, we've got to get better. if we want to win the second half.

Offense..... first possesion of the half... a 2 yard run, and 2 incomplete passes.... 3 & out....... Offense Bad.

Defense. We give up a 14 play 70 yard drive for 8:28. Only seeing three third downs....... we give up 58 yards in the air & 20 on the ground....... Defense Bad...

We are down 28-7 (3 touchdowns), but we have 5:29 minutes left in the 3rd.

Offense...... fumble....... after only being on the field for 3:40... Bad offense.

Defense...... we give up a fieldGoal....... Defense not exactly bad, not exactly good......

Offense..... touchdown....... 2:29 seconds..... Offense Good.

Defense....... it takes 7:13 seconds, but we force a fumble. get the ball back for our offense...... Defense Good.

Offense....... INT....... game over.... Offense Bad.

Second half, we couldn't get off the field, but we didn't allow as many points as we did the first half....... which is all you can ask for.

Offensively, we sputtered & stuttered for all but 2:29 seconds of the second half.... we scored 8, one more point than we did in the first, so I guess we can say we played better offensively......

Did the defense not give the offense ample opportunity to keep the game close?? I think so......

2 turnovers on offense..... we only score 15 points, and we couldn't, or at least did not sustain a drive for even 5 minutes....

Defense for the most part didn't do their part to get off the field....

Offense didn't help them either.

that's all I'm saying.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 12:32 PM
I thought I already posted the times...... but I didn't.

Posessions....

1. 1:20 touchdown
2. 2:52
3. 3:25
4. 4:14
Half Time
5. 0:50
6. 3:40
7. 2:29 touchdown
8. 2:11

I just think it would make sense that our guys would be tired.... Even though none of them used it as an excuse......

real
09-28-2006, 12:43 PM
I thought I already posted the times...... but I didn't.

Posessions....

1. 1:20 touchdown
2. 2:52
3. 3:25
4. 4:14
Half Time
5. 0:50
6. 3:40
7. 2:29 touchdown
8. 2:11

I just think it would make sense that our guys would be tired.... Even though none of them used it as an excuse......

The only thing that I find wrong with your assumption is that our two shortest posessions were after half time and the beginning of the game.....Two points when our defense should have been pretty well rested.....

But on another note...It's a two way street...you could also look at it as the defense not getting themselves off the field enough to give the offense enough time....Our defense is last in the leauge.....there aren't too many exscuses or reasons for that other than the lack of talent/experience/whatever people want to blame it on....Point is our defense isn't good...nothing more nothing less...Our offense not being able to constantly sustain long drives is a relatively small problem when talking about defensive performance....JMO

FBJunkie
09-28-2006, 01:03 PM
I thought I already posted the times...... but I didn't.

Posessions....

1. 1:20 touchdown
2. 2:52
3. 3:25
4. 4:14
Half Time
5. 0:50
6. 3:40
7. 2:29 touchdown
8. 2:11

I just think it would make sense that our guys would be tired.... Even though none of them used it as an excuse......


The offense v.s. defense aurgument is as old as the chicken or the egg. Good teams rarely bring this kind of stuff up. The teams that do, usually result in a fist fight between assistant coaches (B. Ryan v.s. Kevin G.)

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 01:06 PM
I think it's unfair that we all lump all/most of the blame on the defense.

we got three & outs....... we forced turnovers..... we've held them to field goals....

Yes, we've given up bunches of yards..... yes we've given up a lot of touchdowns....

But had our offense not turned the ball over twice.... the score may very well have been 31-31 with 1:35 seconds left in the game.......

real
09-28-2006, 01:15 PM
I think it's unfair that we all lump all/most of the blame on the defense.

we got three & outs....... we forced turnovers..... we've held them to field goals....

Yes, we've given up bunches of yards..... yes we've given up a lot of touchdowns....

But had our offense not turned the ball over twice.... the score may very well have been 31-31 with 1:35 seconds left in the game.......

I agree with you...But on a scale of 1-10...10 being the most amount of blame....1 being the least....Id give our defense an 8 and our offense about a 5....

15 points isn't great....but it's not too shabby either...Not that I think our defense is capable of winning with only 15 points yet....But eventually they're going to have to ....For instance...Take the Jacksontown vs. Pittsville game...

There's going to be times when the offense struggles...thats just football...

TK_Gamer
09-28-2006, 01:47 PM
First of all, I'm not trying to pass the buck. OUr defense sucked....... For a variety of reasons.... one of those reasons, I think is because we couldn't sustain drives while we were on Offense.

we had 4 offensive possesions in the first half, totalling only 11:41.

We started the game forcing a 3 & out..... Defense Good.....

We score.... Offense Good.....

Defense allows a score...... Defense Bad.....

We get the ball & we fumble the snap, we allow a sack... punt..... offense Bad..

Defense allows a 74 yard 5:53 drive & a Touchdown...... Deffense Bad....

Score is 14-7

Offense... we fumble the snap... complete 0/4 passes.... we only move the ball because of the run game & a penalty.... Offense Bad. this possession only takes 3:25 off the clock.

Defense.... 3 & out...... give the ball right back to the offense with the same score......... Defense Good.

We complete 3 of 5 passes...... a holding penalty hurt us, 3 rushing attempts for 5 yards(no gain on two attempts)........ punt.... Offense Bad.

Now we are at 4:50 remaining in the first half...... our D Gives up another TD..... Defense Bad.

It's halftime, we've been outscored 28-7...... defensively, we've got to get better. Offensively, we've got to get better. if we want to win the second half.

Offense..... first possesion of the half... a 2 yard run, and 2 incomplete passes.... 3 & out....... Offense Bad.

Defense. We give up a 14 play 70 yard drive for 8:28. Only seeing three third downs....... we give up 58 yards in the air & 20 on the ground....... Defense Bad...

We are down 28-7 (3 touchdowns), but we have 5:29 minutes left in the 3rd.

Offense...... fumble....... after only being on the field for 3:40... Bad offense.

Defense...... we give up a fieldGoal....... Defense not exactly bad, not exactly good......

Offense..... touchdown....... 2:29 seconds..... Offense Good.

Defense....... it takes 7:13 seconds, but we force a fumble. get the ball back for our offense...... Defense Good.

Offense....... INT....... game over.... Offense Bad.

Second half, we couldn't get off the field, but we didn't allow as many points as we did the first half....... which is all you can ask for.

Offensively, we sputtered & stuttered for all but 2:29 seconds of the second half.... we scored 8, one more point than we did in the first, so I guess we can say we played better offensively......

Did the defense not give the offense ample opportunity to keep the game close?? I think so......

2 turnovers on offense..... we only score 15 points, and we couldn't, or at least did not sustain a drive for even 5 minutes....

Defense for the most part didn't do their part to get off the field....
Offense didn't help them either.

that's all I'm saying.
the over 7 min drive we gave up in the 4th guaranteed our loss. we needed 2 touchdowns and 2 2-point conversions. without the 7mins off the clock we had a chance. giving up 7 mins drives and allowing a team to convert on 3rd and long all day long is not good defense, I could care less about the turnover, we had no time to do anything at that point anyway. you just dont get it. the job of the defense is not to get off the field quickly, it's to stop the other team from scoring, PERIOD and to definately not allow 7 and 8 min drives wich amount to 4 or 5 times we failed to stop them on 3rd down. hey our defense looked good at times on 1st and 2nd down and we had them on their heels 3rd and long, then we lost the playbook and let them convert with our soft ass cover 2/prevent mentality. I dont blame our guys for all of it , I blame richard smith for having no clue how to stop a screen pass on 3rd and forever or a draw play for that matter. on the draw that scored they left ryans high and dry with a lineman all over him wich allowed portis to run right by him. face it we called the worst plays at the worst times. our defensive people did not play bad, they played their hearts out, but they were never put in a position to put the other team away on 3rd down. thats what "I'm" saying.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 02:07 PM
the over 7 min drive we gave up in the 4th guaranteed our loss.


I don't know....... I thought the QB fumble in the third (after we just went three & out) pretty much took away any possibility of a comeback. We were down 28-7 at that point, and looking anemic, if not comedic on offense. There was still 2:00 on the clock, in the third Qtr at that point. If we'd had gotten a touchdown at that point, it would've been a two touchdown game going into the 4th.

Instead, we put our defense back on the field, with a 3:40 breather.

you just dont get it. the job of the defense is not to get off the field quickly, it's to stop the other team from scoring, PERIOD .........

......... but they were never put in a position to put the other team away on 3rd down. thats what "I'm" saying.

& a good offense keeps a the other teams offense off the field. I understand what you are saying. I'm not saying our guys played well, or that the Defense has anything to be proud about. But saying the defense didn't stop them on this third down, or that third is the same as saying our offense didn't stay on the field for this third down, or that third down.

I'm not trying to take the blame away from the defensive side of the ball, just trying to shed some light on some offensive woes as well. If it were not for our two turnovers, on offense, would we have still been in the game??

but we're fumblin & bumblin & stumblin out there like MoeLarry & Curly....

I'd also like to know why would our two #1 recievers be on the sideline with 2:59 left in the game, then we call for a bomb to the endzone(that's severely underthrown)...... AJ was tired..... I get that, he was a one man show on that possession.... but why'd we sign the Vet?? was he hurt or something??

Our defense sucked...... but it's not like they didn't provide our offense opportunity to be in this game. OUr defense isn't good enough to make up for it's mistakes, and the offenses mistakes as well.....

real
09-28-2006, 02:13 PM
Our defense sucked...... but it's not like they didn't provide our offense opportunity to be in this game. OUr defense isn't good enough to make up for it's mistakes, and the offenses mistakes as well.....

Kyss...Something I think that should be taken into consideration when comparing Offense vs. Defense for the skins game is....Their Defense is much better than their offense is...Their offense had been struggling...Brunnell sets a record.....isn't touched....thats poor....our offense clearly carried us in that game despite the couple of mistakes.....Defense has got to step up...Yes our offense has problems, but Defense has more problems...I not quite sure where you're going with this....are you saying our defense is better than our offense...or better than they appear??? honestly I don't agree with either...I think they are in fact as bad as advertised....

Vambo, the Marble Eye
09-28-2006, 02:48 PM
no It's our master plan..........I thought I went over this, richard smith hid the meaty part of the defensive game plan (with all the blitzes and smash mouth stuff) and we are gonna bring it out in the game that decides the worst record in the league, totally aniahliate the other team, and kubiak is gonna tell everyone "see we are NOT the worst team in football!"

I HAVE THE SOLUTION.... and it is simple too.

Since our defense is as effective as a dam built with chain link fence… our offense play calling should be planning that on every (other?) possession we realize that we have 4 downs to gain 10 yards!

• If we keep getting first downs, great.
• We have a better chance of building since we could run 3 plays out of 4.
• The opponent’s defense gets tired…
• We don’t have to worry about special teams…


If we turn over possession on our own 27 yard line, we are almost guaranteed to improve;

• Time of possession (it will take them less time to score and we get the ball back sooner)
• Opponents are less likely to gain 500 yards against our defense (short distance to score)
• Once Mathis is back, we have a better chance scoring when the other team kicks off….

Other reasons?

edo783
09-28-2006, 03:19 PM
I HAVE THE SOLUTION.... and it is simple too.

Since our defense is as effective as a dam built with chain link fence… our offense play calling should be planning that on every (other?) possession we realize that we have 4 downs to gain 10 yards!

• If we keep getting first downs, great.
• We have a better chance of building since we could run 3 plays out of 4.
• The opponent’s defense gets tired…
• We don’t have to worry about special teams…


If we turn over possession on our own 27 yard line, we are almost guaranteed to improve;

• Time of possession (it will take them less time to score and we get the ball back sooner)
• Opponents are less likely to gain 500 yards against our defense (short distance to score)
• Once Mathis is back, we have a better chance scoring when the other team kicks off….

Other reasons?

THAT is pure genius man. We have to do this.

hollywood_texan
09-28-2006, 05:12 PM
I am surprised the defense is being completely blamed for all this. Granted, they are horrible. But, the offense needs to make it's own plays and have extended drives without help from the defense.

Keep this in mind, the defense played good the first three years and the offense did basically the same thing it has done the first 3 games this season and all 2005 season. The offense is today, what it was in 2004, it's the same stats but moved around a little. Check out the stats, look at the box scores, it is scary. There are some games from time to time in the 2004 season that the offense played a little better, but there is no consistency. Bottom line, the offense is lucky to score 17 or more points in a game on a consistent basis.

The reason why this organization is such a train wreck, is that the defense is getting worse and the offense is basically the same.

Some more serious changes made be needed if things don't get trended in the right direction. Trends, I am mean scoring more than 24 points a game on average, while getting more than 200 yards passing and 100 rushing yards every week. And a defense playing back to the 2004 levels, which was decent.

infantrycak
09-28-2006, 05:32 PM
Keep this in mind, the defense played good the first three years

My how standards have fallen. Good? They were 20th--lower mid pack in 2002--by far their best year. 2003--31st. 2004--23rd. I guess compared to the monumental suckage that is the current D they were good but you are vastly underrating how badly they have performed so far.

hollywood_texan
09-28-2006, 05:52 PM
My how standards have fallen. Good? They were 20th--lower mid pack in 2002--by far their best year. 2003--31st. 2004--23rd. I guess compared to the monumental suckage that is the current D they were good but you are vastly underrating how badly they have performed so far.

My point was from a scoreboard perspective. Statistically, they were not the greatest. You make a good point.

However, I remember that Green Bay and losing on that field at the end of the game. The offense didn't get 1 first down in the 4th quarter, and the defense held Brett Favre to 16 points. If you are going to blame the defense for the first three losses this year, what about that Green Bay game? I know it's a couple years ago, but I think I can back to that game if Carr supporters can still pull out the Cowboy and Viking games in their defence of Carr.

Here are the averages per game by year:

First is the year, then the average by the offense, and then the average by the defense.

2002 13.3 22.3
2003 15.9 23.8
2004 19.3 21.2
2005 16.3 26.9
2006 16.3 32.7

Maybe I should have said a little decent instead of good. But, maybe in 2004 the defense could have been better if the offense would have extended more drives and scored more points? It is in reverse to your logic that the defense not stopping anyone means the offense can't score points this year.

My main point is, the offense is still the same, the defense has just gotten worse, and even worse than the offense has ever been, which is a really bad thing.

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 05:54 PM
Kyss...Something I think that should be taken into consideration when comparing Offense vs. Defense for the skins game is....Their Defense is much better than their offense is...Their offense had been struggling...Brunnell sets a record.....isn't touched....thats poor....our offense clearly carried us in that game despite the couple of mistakes.....Defense has got to step up...Yes our offense has problems, but Defense has more problems...I not quite sure where you're going with this....are you saying our defense is better than our offense...or better than they appear??? honestly I don't agree with either...I think they are in fact as bad as advertised....

no, I just think we are overlooking the problems we have on the offensive side of the ball. All we've talked about since Sunday, was our poor defense. Only one of our drives lasted longer than 4 minutes(4:14)..... if we didn't have a #1 overall on defense, I'm sure we'd have been talking about how ineffective our offense was.

Here is my first post in this thread:
I think we should not put sole responsibility for a loss on our defense, if we only score 15 points. Especially when they forced 2 punts..... one a 3 & out..... maybe 2, I can't remember.... forced a field goal, and a fumble that we failed to score on.........


I'm just saying we should've scored more than 15 points, and if our offense is on the field, theirs isn't.

I don't know what the numbers are, but I think Washington had more penalties than we did.. we turned the ball over on a fumble, they turned the ball over on a fumble.

We've got Jeb, Cook, Owens, Moulds, AJ, and Dayne out there on most plays.... or some combination of the bunch...... why can't we get rolling on offense?? What's the hold up??

Was AJ being double teamed??

Were we max protecting most of the game??

Are Owens & Jeb not as promised?? can they not occupy the middle and keep the safeties honest??

Are we not running routes to get our guys open??

Was our run game inneffective??

thunderkyss
09-28-2006, 06:00 PM
But, maybe in 2004 the defense could have been better if the offense would have extended more drives and scored more points? It is in reverse to your logic that the defense not stopping anyone means the offense can't score points this year.

My main point is, the offense is still the same, the defense has just gotten worse, and even worse than the offense has ever been, which is a really bad thing.

That's what we said in the offseason..... getting David some weapons, AJ some help.... and an improved run game, will help our defense. I think( I think) we all agreed that one problem we've had on defense, was that they stayed on the field way to long, because our offense couldn't sustain drives.

One thing I think we should do, is put together a script for the first possesion of the second half..... it seems to work pretty well to start the game....... so far anyway.

infantrycak
09-28-2006, 06:12 PM
It is in reverse to your logic that the defense not stopping anyone means the offense can't score points this year.

Have not said that to my knowledge. What I have said is the O needs to improve but the D is historically bad. I am not blaming any offensive woes on the D--they have enough problems all on their own.

hollywood_texan
09-28-2006, 06:30 PM
Have not said that to my knowledge. What I have said is the O needs to improve but the D is historically bad. I am not blaming any offensive woes on the D--they have enough problems all on their own.


Sorry, I confused you with somebody else's postings then.

sleepwalker
09-29-2006, 01:12 AM
The offense v.s. defense aurgument is as old as the chicken or the egg. Good teams rarely bring this kind of stuff up. The teams that do, usually result in a fist fight between assistant coaches (B. Ryan v.s. Kevin G.)

I will never forget that punch....Good defence that yr, they beat the spread 11 games in a row...Then a 80 yr old Joe Montana ripped our hearts out, oh man that was a very painful day.

real
09-29-2006, 07:39 AM
I'm just saying we should've scored more than 15 points, and if our offense is on the field, theirs isn't.

I don't know what the numbers are, but I think Washington had more penalties than we did.. we turned the ball over on a fumble, they turned the ball over on a fumble.

We've got Jeb, Cook, Owens, Moulds, AJ, and Dayne out there on most plays.... or some combination of the bunch...... why can't we get rolling on offense?? What's the hold up??

Was AJ being double teamed??

Were we max protecting most of the game??

Are Owens & Jeb not as promised?? can they not occupy the middle and keep the safeties honest??

Are we not running routes to get our guys open??

Was our run game inneffective??

I think the problem is that we can see signs out of our offense....Against a lesser defense our offense can do some damage....Agains't a good defense we can put up 15 atleast....Our defense has shown that they can't even hold a struggling offense....Our defense hasn't really given us many signs of optimism this season...We look at offense...and see hope....We look at defense....and see holes.....thats why defense is getting the scrutiny....

Blake
09-29-2006, 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Mario http://home.austin.rr.com/khari/images/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.houstontexans.com/showthread.php?p=454932#post454932)
I predict a 2 sack weekend for the Big Man. Mark it down


Marked.

Hmmm. Mario better come through for me here.

real
09-29-2006, 10:36 AM
Hmmm. Mario better come through for me here.

We'll see....

Mr. White
09-29-2006, 10:40 AM
Hmmm. Mario better come through for me here.

There's a big man that will get a 2 sack weekend. I'll mark that down.

hollywood_texan
09-29-2006, 10:48 AM
We look at offense...and see hope....

I don't share your optimism. The defense has been so bad that the offense hasn't had to play a full 4 quarters yet, much less come thru with one clutch drive.

If we had a Baltimore type defense, I am not so sure the offense could easily put up 15 points because the opposing defense will be playing a full 4 quarters too. I really don't think you can take the offensive production of the first three games and say it would be same in a close game, the offense may not have produced the same results because defenses would have been playing a lot tougher for the W in a close game.

Hopefully Miami will only score 14 or 17 points, and then we can see if this offense can bring home a victory when the opportunity presents itself. Because that is what a lot of you guys are saying.

Sometimes fixing one problem, just exposes another one that you didn't see earlier because it wasn't as big as the first one.

I said it earlier and this is how I am sum up the Texans, skeptical of the offense and mortified by the defense.

real
09-29-2006, 11:03 AM
I don't share your optimism. The defense has been so bad that the offense hasn't had to play a full 4 quarters yet, much less come thru with one clutch drive.
If we had a Baltimore type defense, I am not so sure the offense could easily put up 15 points because the opposing defense will be playing a full 4 quarters too. I really don't think you take the offensive production of the first three games and say if the game was close, the offense would have produced the same results because those defenses lossened up toward the end of the game.

First of all, your argument is based strictly on hypotheticals and what ifs...And the only game that we weren't in score wise until the fourth was the colts....The last game we played all 15 of those points were scored against a defense trying their best to keep us out of endzone...

Hopefully Miami will only score 14 or 17 points, and then we can see if this offense can bring home a victory when the opportunity presents itself. Because that is what a lot of you guys are saying.

Theres that word again....You are proving my point....We look at the offense and see hope...as you so clearly demonstrated....We look at the defense and see holes...

Sometimes fixing one problem, just exposes another one that you didn't see earlier because it wasn't as big as the first one.

uhh...I don't know about that one...IMO, if you are the head coach of a football team, the top of your profession...You should know what holes you need to fix, and have a systematic aproach at fixing them...If a coach is blindly doing things without regard to the consequences I don't call that a very good coach...
I said it earlier and this is how I am sum up the Texans, skeptical of the offense and mortified by the defense.

Well....thats cool....you are basically saying the same thing I am saying,but you are just using different degrees.......The offense has more to offer than the D right now...

hollywood_texan
09-29-2006, 12:36 PM
Well....thats cool....you are basically saying the same thing I am saying,but you are just using different degrees.......The offense has more to offer than the D right now...

I would really like to see a low scoring game and see how the offense responds this week. I guess that is really my point, and I am holding my judgement on the offense until then. The offense does not deserve a blank check or a hall pass by any stretch. In the fourth quarter with the game on the line,the offense should be getting first downs to keep the defense off the field and run out the clock. Or, a clutch drive to get that winning field goal or touchdown.

We really haven't seen the offense come through in the clutch in the past few years. Probably the best year was 2003. Which is really my point, when the chips are on the line, the Texans lose most of the time. And I haven't seen anything different in that regard with the offense despite Carr's high QB rating this year.

In 2004, the Texans won 5 games when they held their opponents to 17, 10, 6, 5, and 0 points. So, they way guys are talking, the defense pretty much won those games. And that season, a clutch game the offense couldn't do one thing in the 4th quarter was against Green Bay, which they probably could have won if they had gotten just a couple of first downs late in the game. Texans lost that game 16-13.

Just go back through the seasons and you can see this trend, which should be easy for a serious fan because you already have the background of every season and can remember these games.

Hopefully these links are helpful to see what I am talking about.

http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=hou&year=2003

http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=hou&year=2004

http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=hou&year=2005

My theory is, if the defense all of sudden got a lot better, it would just expose some serious issues on offense. Which are scoring points and coming through in the clutch.

real
09-29-2006, 12:54 PM
I would really like to see a low scoring game and see how the offense responds this week. I guess that is really my point, and I am holding my judgement on the offense until then. The offense does not deserve a blank check or a hall pass by any stretch. In the fourth quarter with the game on the line,the offense should be getting first downs to keep the defense off the field and run out the clock. Or, a clutch drive to get that winning field goal or touchdown.

We really haven't seen the offense come through in the clutch in the past few years. Probably the best year was 2003. Which is really my point, when the chips are on the line, the Texans lose most of the time. And I haven't seen anything different in that regard with the offense despite Carr's high QB rating this year.

In 2004, the Texans won 5 games when they held their opponents to 17, 10, 6, 5, and 0 points. So, they way guys are talking, the defense pretty much won those games. And that season, a clutch game the offense couldn't do one thing in the 4th quarter was against Green Bay, which they probably could have won if they had gotten just a couple of first downs late in the game. Texans lost that game 16-13.

Just go back through the seasons and you can see this trend, which should be easy for a serious fan because you already have the background of every season and can remember these games.

Hopefully these links are helpful to see what I am talking about.

http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=hou&year=2003

http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=hou&year=2004

http://sports-ak.espn.go.com/nfl/teams/schedule?team=hou&year=2005

My theory is, if the defense all of sudden got a lot better, it would just expose some serious issues on offense. Which are scoring points and coming through in the clutch.

Yeah....I agree with you our offense hasn't shown that they are capable of winning big time games...making big time drives....