PDA

View Full Version : Time For A Change


Micheal
09-21-2004, 08:15 AM
It looks a though, this will another 4 or 5 win season. If that's the case, I really don't believe David Carr is all that everyone thought he would be. Next season, the Texans really need to look for another quarterback. He is starting to remind of Tony Banks when he used to play for the Rams....good stats, losing record.

OzzO
09-21-2004, 08:22 AM
Disgree. I do think we make sure we have quality good backups though. Would you want to start over with another rook or David starting his 4th season?

I don't think it's all on one player that changing him would result in a better record.

Now start looking for no turnovers, stepped up defense, and less penalties the rest of this season... then I could get on board with that.

keyfro
09-21-2004, 08:24 AM
nah carr has the arm...two of his picks this year came from tipped passes which he can't control so right now i only see him have one pick this season...he has what it takes to be good but we have to get him to get out of these little passes to DD...still want to see the long ball to johnson

Doug
09-21-2004, 08:32 AM
Man you need to calm down. I've been waiting on this to happen. After last year everyone was spouting off at the mouth, Carr this and Carr that. You know what, the guy is doing awesome! Blame him all you want but the guy is 4th in total passing yards, had a passer rating of 109 after the loss to Detroit and not to mention was sacked 5 times and running for his life on several occasions. Geez, what else do you want from this guy? He's still got things to work on but god he looks so much better than the last two years. When is the rest of the team gonna step up? Carrs on the level where he needs to be. Where's everyone else????? Don't pull that, he keeps throwing it to DD every play crud because if he didn't have a hand in his face every other play the ball would be going elsewhere and you saw it quite a few times against Detroit when the man had time to throw.

shansmacker
09-21-2004, 08:53 AM
I think you are waaaay out of bounds in your assessment of DC up to this point.When he starts getting consistant pass protection and he still has problems moving his team down the field maybe ill think differently but as for what I see now he is doing an excellant job considering he still doesnt have the consistant pass protection he needs.

Lucky
09-21-2004, 08:53 AM
It looks a though, this will another 4 or 5 win season. If that's the case, I really don't believe David Carr is all that everyone thought he would be. Next season, the Texans really need to look for another quarterback...
If you really think the Texans need another QB...then they better start looking for a new coach & GM as well. David Carr is Casserly & Caper's baby. They brought him in with the 1st pick, they built this franchise around him. If Carr's a bust, then C&C don't deserve to stay.

So is that what you're calling for? A complete dismantling of the organization?

JDizzle
09-21-2004, 09:28 AM
I have an idea: Let's bench Carr for the remainder of the season, and start Banks, better yet, let's start Ragone. That way we can go 0 - 16 and draft Leinart. Yeah, then we'll be a powerhouse of the NFL for sure. While you're at it, you might want to find a couple of offensive linemen who can keep interior defensive linemen out of the backfield.

Come on people, this is starting to get ridiculous. If you're going to make statements like that then you really should back it up with something concrete.

Hi, I'm earth, have we met?

Micheal
09-21-2004, 09:52 AM
Now that you bought it up. If the Texans does not have at least an 8-8 season, Caper should be fired.
I do remember when Kurt Warner was playing for the Rams and went to the Superbowl his first year. He constantly had defensive linemen in his face just like David Carr. It's the quarterback people.

If you really think the Texans need another QB...then they better start looking for a new coach & GM as well. David Carr is Casserly & Caper's baby. They brought him in with the 1st pick, they built this franchise around him. If Carr's a bust, then C&C don't deserve to stay.

So is that what you're calling for? A complete dismantling of the organization?

Lucky
09-21-2004, 10:12 AM
I do remember when Kurt Warner was playing for the Rams and went to the Superbowl his first year. He constantly had defensive linemen in his face just like David Carr. It's the quarterback people.
Maybe the Giants would trade Warner to the Texans for Carr? Would that make you happy?

Now that you brought it up, it's always the QB. Carr is secretly greasing the ball before giving it to DD. He's sneaking in on defense and giving up 3rd & long conversions. He should have made that tackle on the kick return TD. He should disregard the plays coming in and only call bombs to AJ. D-linemen should bounce off his body like a rubber ball. Carr is killing this football team, single-handedly.

beerlover
09-21-2004, 10:31 AM
I'm going to say it again, the Texans lack of defensive pressure on the opposing QB, along with lack of protection to ours combined with mental mistakes on both sides resulting in penalties & turnovers is the root cause of the poor beginning to this season. When Carr has time, he can throw down the field with accuracy, Armstrong looks like a weapon, Babin & Robinson are doing fine, Mosses needs to sit on kick-offs for Starling & return punts only. :soapbox:

nunusguy
09-21-2004, 10:32 AM
Carr in particular and the offense in general are doing fine and we are gonna ge OK in that department - as long as we can get DD to hold on to the ball and we don't get hit with a batch of injuries. OK we need to get more TDs and
fewer FGs in the Red Zone, but they are moving the ball with sustained drives.
And they looked pretty good preseason.
But the D is something else. I have a nagging feeling that we got some real "structural" problems there,i.e., we just don't have the level of talent in
our personnel on that side of the ball that we need to effectively compete.

beerlover
09-21-2004, 10:41 AM
I agree nun with your assement of the offense & this coming draft look at a premium DT to upgrade pressure on the QB. However I think we have the talent to compete now its just that they are still adjusting to each other, the system and Walker & Payne are not 100% back from last seasons injurys. I thought all along it would take them until mid sesaon to jell, unfortunatly the offense has not capitalized but instead capitalized upon :pickle:

JDizzle
09-21-2004, 11:13 AM
If you hand the ball 33 times to your running back, your setting up the QB to fail . I think Carr would like to get out of Palmers system too.

Care to provide us with something to back that up?

I would like to see Carr on a west coast offense. :popcorn: Palmer's offense looks like its suffering from severe form of constapation. It's so hard to get anything done.

Especially when you turn the ball over 7 times. I guess it is the coaches fault for not ordering super tackified footballs.

JDizzle
09-21-2004, 12:53 PM
What if I tell you that the coaches predictability is is causing all these turnovers?

I would then ask you to back that up also, along with your previous statement. Backing up the statement "33 carries sets up a QB to fail" with the crafty, whiz of a comeback "the coaches predictability is causing all the turnovers" is like trying to cover up the smell of dog **** with another scoop of dog ****. I'm not trying to be rude, I just want to know how you're coming up with this stuff.

texan279
09-21-2004, 12:56 PM
I can tell you what is causing the turnovers. Davis not putting two hands on the ball, and Carr making a couple of bad throws. Can't blame the coaches for Davis coughing it up or for Carr unloading off of his back foot.

Carr Bombed
09-21-2004, 12:59 PM
The Person who needs to go is Palmer and Capers philosiphy. Think about it if all they were going to do was run the ball, why did they draft a quarterback #1 and then a wr in the 2nd in the first years draft. Then Draft another wr #3 ovrl. I like DD alot, but hes not a workhorse type back, hes to small and hasn't proven he can stay healthy for a whole season yet. He has solidified the rb position though. So we can run and pass that makes us a 2 dimensional and balanced offense, but our coaching staff leaves us one dimensional by taking out the passing game, a job that should be left up to the opposing defense. That leaves the opposing defense stacking up against the run resulting in fewer YPC and a higher chance of turnovers. Successful coaches don't force a team to fit their philosiphy. They change their philosiphy to fit the talent and strength of the team. Carr is the guy and hes playing real well. Hes only 2 games into his 3rd year so its to soon to dismiss him already. Plus he has shown significant improvement, just wait til the end of the year. I have a feeling hes going to breakout.

texan279
09-21-2004, 01:06 PM
I think the reason the are using the running game so much is to try and open up the passing game. But it has gotten to the point of 2 runs, 1 pass, punt, 2 runs, one pass, punt. They need to mix it up. Try pass, run, pass, or pass, pass, run. I liked what the Eagles and Vikes did last night on offense. I remember one 2nd and 2 the Eagles had I think, and they lined up in shotgun, 2 RB's, and 3 WR's. That is what we need to start doing, mixing it up a bit, stop being so conservative and predictable. Also, until Davis proves he can stop dropping the rock for awhile, I think they should look at splitting RB duties 50/50 with Davis and Hollings. Not just having Hollings spell Davis for a play or 2 for a breather. I would say bench Davis, but I know Capers won't.

Carr Bombed
09-21-2004, 01:16 PM
I think the reason the are using the running game so much is to try and open up the passing game. But it has gotten to the point of 2 runs, 1 pass, punt, 2 runs, one pass, punt. They need to mix it up. Try pass, run, pass, or pass, pass, run. I liked what the Eagles and Vikes did last night on offense. I remember one 2nd and 2 the Eagles had I think, and they lined up in shotgun, 2 RB's, and 3 WR's. That is what we need to start doing, mixing it up a bit, stop being so conservative and predictable. Also, until Davis proves he can stop dropping the rock for awhile, I think they should look at splitting RB duties 50/50 with Davis and Hollings. Not just having Hollings spell Davis for a play or 2 for a breather. I would say bench Davis, but I know Capers won't.

I said that in a post during the game. All they do is run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... Its like a skipping record, they need to be more deceptive with the play calling. Now we're 0-2 with not much to lose being heavy underdogs against KC, let the ball fly more and not just on third down.

Vinny
09-21-2004, 01:19 PM
I said that in a post during the game. All they do is run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... Its like a skipping record, they need to be more deceptive with the play calling. Now we're 0-2 with not much to lose being heavy underdogs against KC, let the ball fly more and not just on third down.

That is not our problem. Our problem is we don't score TD's and we turn the ball over. We move the ball plenty well and are one of the better teams in the league between the 20's. The next time we score 30 points in a game or our QB throws 3 TD's in a game will be the first time.

Carr Bombed
09-21-2004, 01:28 PM
I know turnovers are our biggest problem, thats a given. I'm just saying I'll like us to mix it up a little. I've been hearing how Palmer hasn't fully opened the playbook and this year he was. I like to see us open it up and see how explosive this offense can be, because right now with our defense strugleing our offense is probally going to have to carry more of the load.

Txnpride
09-21-2004, 04:41 PM
It takes time to develop a GOOD Q.B.It takes even longer to make a GREAT one.If D.D hadnt fumbled the ball in the last two games,we would be 2 and 0.I watched the game again yesterday,and he (DAVID) had a look in his eyes I didnt like,(only in the 2nd quater)as if he didnt have any confidence....maybe he was sick,but he didnt look like the David Carr I have been watching.This weekend will be a good chance to get the offense rolling up some big numbers.Someone on our defense needs to step up and be a leader on the field and in the locker room,I dont care if its Sharper,G-funk whom ever...someone needs to take control and light a fire under their ***s.I am very disapointed on our defenses play so far this year,I really was expecting our defense to light some people up,as for DDs fumbles.....I still cant believe what I am seeing....but I believe we can fix it.I dont know how old you are,but I remember back in the old oiler days after losing a couple of games, coming back and winning 11 in a row.We are still a third year team....maybe we ALL got our hopes up little to soon :twocents:

HJam72
09-21-2004, 07:02 PM
We're losing because of fumbles. No fumbles and we're 2-0 right now, talking about how we think we're gonna stomp all over poor KC. The play calling is too predictable, but, when you think about it, it's working. We are winning these games in every category, except turnovers and final score.

I did watch the game, but I was surprised too find out that we actually had 5 sacks against us. Carr was under way more pressure than I thought and that explains a lot about why he keeps dumping off to DD. They're not protecting Carr and that's why the coaches only want to pass when they have to--3rd and long (long is a relative term).

I don't think we we should judge Carr or the coaches when DD keeps dropping the ball and Carr is getting sacked 5 times in a game. It's amazing we scored as much as we did. Throw in a kickoff return against us and we really had it rough.

David Carr is not nearly as good as he will be, but he's getting there and I can't see any major flaws. Someone said that he is Capers baby (or something similar) and he is probably deserving of that. We're not talking about that QB that Dallas finally let go this preseason or the one that Pittsburgh's Cowher used to love so much. Carr has real talent and a brain in his head to go with it. I see him as a bonafide future star in this league and he's made fewer rookie mistakes than I would have actually expected.

DR#1
09-21-2004, 07:18 PM
IMO i think the team is doing good and everyone is looking good, i think no one on the TEAM is to blame, i think its the coaching whether it's Capers or Palmer, i know the coaches aren't the one's thats playing the game but when your running back gets 11 receptions when you have 4 explosive receivers shows you that your not calling the right plays, we're looking like the chargers of last year but the difference is that we actually do have receivers come on we need to get it together n get a win

aj.
09-21-2004, 07:42 PM
I said that in a post during the game. All they do is run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... run,run,pass..... Its like a skipping record, No....all you remember is run, run, pass - and only when it fails. I'd suggest watching the game more closely or at least reading the gamebook before propogating the myth. They do it, like a lot of teams, but it's far from "all they do."

Panther5407
09-21-2004, 07:46 PM
Carr can only do so much. He needs others (O-line and the Big D) to help him out. Tom Brady could have a team that didn't preform around him but would that make his greatness any less?

HoustonLionsFan
09-21-2004, 08:19 PM
Lions only scored on one of the fumbles, and won by 2 TD's. You would be 1 - 1 without the fumbles. Lions beat you, quit making excuses. The better team won.

HJam72
09-21-2004, 08:40 PM
Lions only scored on one of the fumbles, and won by 2 TD's. You would be 1 - 1 without the fumbles. Lions beat you, quit making excuses. The better team won.

One of those touches was a runback. Maybe we're not giving Detroit's pass rush enough credit (I have no idea), but they won the turnover ratio 3-1 and obviously beat us on special teams. That's the biggest difference in the game. Take away those 2 fumbles and take back that runback--what have you got? Houston wins. I think what we're saying here is that the Texans should be better than what they're doing, not that Detroit isn't good.

I'm absolutely not telling you what to do, but, if you don't want to hear about the Lions game, maybe you should take a break from here until next week or a few days, anyway. We're furious about those 2 fumlbes and what might've been. You probably don't want to hear it.

texan279
09-21-2004, 09:33 PM
Everyone can stop talking about us getting rid of Carr, it won't happen. He was our first pick. The front office built our offense around him. He is a franchise player. It would be three years wasted if we got rid of him.

HoustonLionsFan
09-21-2004, 09:46 PM
Unlike alot of you, I actually think Carr will be a good QB. I haven't watched as many games as all of ya'll, but from what I've seen, he has the tools. A ton of sacks (oline), fumbles, and conservative play calling hurt him. He will be fine, just an outsiders point of view. And I might add, he may be better than Harrington.

HJam- I understand what you are saying, but ST's and TO's are a part of the game. If the Lions would have lost because of TO's I would not be saying they were the better team, but the Texans got lucky. I would say the Texans won that game fair and square, no excuses, good game. I was just saying that the Lions were a team the Texans COULD beat, not SHOULD beat, TO's or no. I think the 7:30 min drive to put the game away showed Detroit was the better team, at least last Sun.

Hervoyel
09-21-2004, 09:57 PM
Lions only scored on one of the fumbles, and won by 2 TD's. You would be 1 - 1 without the fumbles. Lions beat you, quit making excuses. The better team won.

The Lions only scored on one of the fumbles but the Texans did not score on either posession that ended in a fumble. A turnover has three aspects that should be clear to anyone who studies the game.

1. When you turn the ball over the opposition can and often does score and so points off of turnovers are important.

2. When you turn the ball over you have denied yourself a drive in which you might have scored. Drives that end in fumbles and interceptions are lost opportunities. Not all of them may have ended in 7 (or even 3) points but some of them may have.

3. When you turn the ball over momentum is almost always affected. Momentum is an enormous factor in who wins and who loses a football game. If you give your opponent momentum (or in the Texans case if you keep giving your opponent momentum over and over again like they have the past two weeks) it's going to turn the tide of the game.

The better team won Sunday. Of that I have no doubt. The Texans are not a very good football team right now and whether the Lions are a little bit better or are a whole lot better doesn't really matter. They were (and are until the Texans can prove otherwise) a better team. Trying to work out what's wrong with your team however isn't "making excuses". It's Texans fans on (you may have failed to notice it on your way in) the Texans board talking about why their team lost. Nothing more.

cyanides
09-21-2004, 10:04 PM
Lions only scored on one of the fumbles, and won by 2 TD's. You would be 1 - 1 without the fumbles. Lions beat you, quit making excuses. The better team won.


True, Lions only scored a TD on one of DD's fumbles. We are talking turn overs in general. 12:15 in the second quarter DC throws an interception to K. Smith on Det 37 yrd line. 7:00 Joey Harrington throws a TD pass to C.Schlesinger. One score off of a turnover.

11:28 in the third quarter DD fumbles. 6:45 J.Harrington throws a TD pass to Williams. Two scores off of turnovers.

Lions 28 Texans 16. Lions win by 12. Points off of turnovers 14. In my book without the turnovers Texans win by 2.

Stats from nfl.com full play-by-play link for the game.

HoustonLionsFan
09-21-2004, 10:14 PM
True, Lions only scored a TD on one of DD's fumbles. We are talking turn overs in general. 12:15 in the second quarter DC throws an interception to K. Smith on Det 37 yrd line. 7:00 Joey Harrington throws a TD pass to C.Schlesinger. One score off of a turnover.

If you're going to do that, you have to mention that Texans did not score after they intercepted Harrington. That is why I omitted Int.'s. And based off that observation, 7 points off two fumbles, Lions still win by 5, all other TO's being accounted for

HoustonLionsFan
09-21-2004, 10:19 PM
The Lions only scored on one of the fumbles but the Texans did not score on either posession that ended in a fumble.

It's Texans fans on (you may have failed to notice it on your way in) the Texans board talking about why their team lost. Nothing more.

You're assuming that they would have scored TD's and Detroit wouldn't have got the ball back and scored anyway. You can't do that.

FYI- Texans are my second team behind the Lions. Some of you have only talked about mistakes, but many, as in the people I was posting to, act as if the Texans SHOULD have won. I guessed you missed the point.

infantrycak
09-21-2004, 10:24 PM
If you're going to do that, you have to mention that Texans did not score after they intercepted Harrington. That is why I omitted Int.'s. And based off that observation, 7 points off two fumbles, Lions still win by 5, all other TO's being accounted for

And if you are going to do that, you have to mention that the Lions got the ball back a few plays later off another DD fumble. The Lions got the win. Be happy with that and stop trying to act like 21 gimme points didn't make a difference.

Hervoyel
09-21-2004, 10:28 PM
You're assuming that they would have scored TD's and Detroit wouldn't have got the ball back and scored anyway. You can't do that.

FYI- Texans are my second team behind the Lions. Some of you have only talked about mistakes, but many, as in the people I was posting to, act as if the Texans SHOULD have won. I guessed you missed the point.

You need to go back and read items 2 and 3 again. I am assuming nothing. I said that when you turn the ball over you not only are giving the other team an opportunity to score but you are also taking away one of yours. I never said you would score without a doubt. I also said that you are handing the other team momentum. A turnover can completely alter the flow of the game. Multiple turnovers can turn a game into a route. One look at the Texans players heads hanging after the second DD fumble told me everything I needed to know about the outcome of that game. They weren't coming back. They'd have been lucky to successfully come back to Houston after that second drop. Momentum and emotion. They go away when you turn the ball over repeatedly.

If the Texans are your second team then you must have been witness to or at least heard of the Pittsburgh game in 2002? The one where the Texans were beaten badly in every possible statistical catagory but the Steelers continued to make mistakes and turned the ball over again and again?

The Steelers moved the ball well all day long but had drives repeatedly turned into Texans points through interceptions. Now certainly that is an extreme example but it remains valid. As the game progressed the Texans, despite being absolutely pitiful everytime the offense walked onto the field seemed to take control of the game. The Steelers grew less effective and were clearly pressing.

HoustonLionsFan
09-21-2004, 11:13 PM
And if you are going to do that, you have to mention that the Lions got the ball back a few plays later off another DD fumble.

Ummm... I did mention he TO.


... stop trying to act like 21 gimme points didn't make a difference.

If that's what you have to tell yourself, OK. But a kick return is by no means a 'gimme'. And it's not like the Lions picked up the fumble from the 1 yd line and walked it in. Or returnrd the Int for a TD. They actually drove the shortened field. Over 40 yds on each if I remeber right, that is in no way a 'gimme.' Maybe you should blame the Def for not stopping them after the TO?

HoustonLionsFan
09-21-2004, 11:16 PM
Herv- I didn't need to read the items again, it was too much of the coulda, shoulda, woulda game. Yes, TO change games, but they are part of the game. Same as ST's. The better teams excel at not turning the ball over, capitalizing on TO's, and playing better ST's, Nuff Said.

Carr Bombed
09-21-2004, 11:44 PM
No....all you remember is run, run, pass - and only when it fails. I'd suggest watching the game more closely or at least reading the gamebook before propogating the myth. They do it, like a lot of teams, but it's far from "all they do."


I was exaggerating I thought that was obvious, so stop nick picking. Also I do watch the game closely I tape them and review them and I know what I see. The offense is a little too conservative and they dont do it like alot of teams(did you watch last nights game, hell did you watch the team that we played again last week). They still could of beat the teams in the first two weeks with that offense though if it wasn't for the sloppy play. But If we're going to consistently be able to compete against elite defenses(like the ones playoff caliber teams have) were going to have to make the playcalling a little more complex and deceptive, thats all I'm saying. JMO

TexansTrueFan
09-22-2004, 12:01 AM
Ok leave Carr alone with those kind of numbers we should be 2-0 maybe he needs to hold D.D hand while he runs the ball and then maybe we could win a few games ! I dunno all this bad talking Carr is really getting old what more do you want ????? I mean we dont have much of a line and he's still kicking *** on tha stat sheets (i know but no wins) Well they will come when we limit the turnovers and or defense steps up !!

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 12:09 AM
who were you replying to?

Ibar_Harry
09-22-2004, 12:23 AM
DD scored a 1000+ yards last year in how many games? We change our offensive blocking scheme to better serve the run. What does that do? Generally a blocking scheme designed for the run is not an effective pass blocking scheme. Oh, so Carr is getting a lot more pressure this year!!! I wonder why? The root cause of the problems is our coaches and their fixation on the run. Yes, its important, but they have gone overboard again. At the end of last year our line was beginning to come together and give David some protection. It wasn't perfect, but it was a lot better than this year. DD was doing well out of that scheme. Once again, don't fix what is working. Injuries hurt us more than anything at the end of the season. Some people are saying people are busting right up the middle to get to our QB. Doesn't surprise me at all. To create a pocket for the passer is a very different process that trying to create lanes or holes for the RB. You need space for the runner, but when protecting the passer you won't no holes. I'm sorry, but no one really is catching on to what is happening. Again, quit blaming the players and look to the coaches. They are the problem visa vi their offensive philosophies.

cyanides
09-22-2004, 12:31 AM
Some people are saying people are busting right up the middle to get to our QB. Doesn't surprise me at all. To create a pocket for the passer is a very different process that trying to create lanes or holes for the RB. You need space for the runner, but when protecting the passer you won't no holes.

I understand what you are saying but, I have to imagine that david lets the oline know when they are going to run the ball or pass the ball. On a run play oline adjust to create holes for DD to run through. On pass plays oline tries to prevent holes from opening to better give David the time he needs to throw the ball. I can't really give examples and will have to go back and watch the games, but I just have to assume the line play changes depending on the call.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 12:31 AM
I thought about that to. They select a Quaterback #1 ovrl. and give him talented wrs and then put a line in place thats strength is running the ball. I mean I wouldn't have a problem with it if the line was more balanced. They need to get better at pass protection fast. Balance is what we need.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 12:35 AM
Hey I just became a vet. damn I was wondering when that was going to happen

Ibar_Harry
09-22-2004, 12:43 AM
I understand what you are saying but, I have to imagine that david lets the oline know when they are going to run the ball or pass the ball. On a run play oline adjust to create holes for DD to run through. On pass plays oline tries to prevent holes from opening to better give David the time he needs to throw the ball. I can't really give examples and will have to go back and watch the games, but I just have to assume the line play changes depending on the call.

I believe you will find that the offensive line men are spaced further apart and you don't change the look for the pass as that would key the defense as to your intentions. I'm sorry, but I think this is a very big part of the problem. When you set up as a passing team you are not going to be as good a running team and vice versa. You have to judge what your strengths are and choose accordingly. Unfortunately, I believe our coaching staff has a fixation with the run. That is not the strength of this group of offensive players.

cyanides
09-22-2004, 12:51 AM
I gotcha. I hadn't thought about that. Your comment makes more sense to me now.

Marcus
09-22-2004, 12:54 AM
Again, quit blaming the players and look to the coaches. They are the problem visa vi their offensive philosophies.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. If you don't want to hold the players accountable for not executing, then you have no business pointing any fingers at the coaches.

First off, the zone blocking scheme that is used on running plays doesn't have thing to do with pass protection. Or in the Texans case, the lack of it. Carr didn't have any more time to throw last year as he does this year. As a matter of fact, i don't recall any game of their existence where Carr has had more time to thow than the opposing quarterback. NEVER! The reason why Carr has to dump it off to Davis all the time, is because the offensive line is not giving him enough time to look downfield. If you watched last night's game, all Daunte Culpepper could do was dump it off because his line was giving him time to look downfield. Blaming the coaches because the OL isn't protecting the QB is a lame copout.

They're getting beat in the trenches, both in the DL and OL. That is why the opposing QB always has more time to throw than Carr does, even in the games that they have won. And like I said in another thread, even though they are getting whipped upfront on BOTH sides of the ball, Carr is still putting up decent numbers. And if it weren't for the turnovers, we'd still be 2-0.

But the bottom line is this. Untill both the defensive and offensive lines have a chance to develop into cohesive units, and actually be on the right side of the "time to throw" department, they are not a good football team.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 12:56 AM
I believe you will find that the offensive line men are spaced further apart and you don't change the look for the pass as that would key the defense as to your intentions. I'm sorry, but I think this is a very big part of the problem. Ibar Harry! you are making an excellent point and I am all over it. I think our line splits are indeed larger. When you are a running team you want big healthy splits and perhaps we are having a hard time adjusting to them in our pass protections. It may take till the bye week to adjust to our new blocking schemes. You just gave me something to look at when I watch the game for the 3rd time tomorrow.
:cool:

Ibar_Harry
09-22-2004, 01:08 AM
I gotcha. I hadn't thought about that. Your comment makes more sense to me now.

You said you were going to rewatch the games. Do so and let me know what you think. You might gain some insight if you have an open mind. To pass protect you need to build a pocket and that is very different from the process of opening up a hole or lane for the running back. The emphasis has changed to create a whole for the running back. I just personally believe that this new blocking scheme has hurt the deveopment of our O-line and team. There are obviously people who believe otherwise and they are free to do so. However, keep an open mind and check for yourself.

Marcus
09-22-2004, 01:15 AM
I just personally believe that this new blocking scheme has hurt the deveopment of our O-line and team.

So based upon this, are you suggesting that they abandon the zone blocking scheme?

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 02:29 PM
I rewatched the game last night and one thing I saw, espeicialy on the first sack on David was our Oline is getting beat off the ball. I mean I paused the game and ran slow mo and their whole Dline was already charching before any player(our whole line) could get out of their stance. It made me think does David have some tendency that opposing defenses picked up on in the film room and is he giving away the snap count. Now I didnt review every play because it was late. I'm going to go back and check the whole game today, but we were beaten badly off the ball. Also on another sack on David I saw the defense just brought a extra blitzer and nobody picked him up, nobody even looked at him. Now that and the penelties is just a lack of disipline. One thing is for sure, they better get this problem solved.

Ibar_Harry
09-22-2004, 02:31 PM
Quite frankly I don't know if they can abandon the scheme nor would they want to, because they have such a fixation on the run. But they may have to make a lot of adjustments to fix it, if its fixable. I'm sorry but the run and DOM are linked at the hip. I think the problem is they view the pass too negatively probably as some of us would be said to view the pass to positively. There is a compromise somewhere in between. My main grip is that I believe they have set up the line to emphasize the run when we really don't have a running team. Our strength lies in passing the ball, but we have to run the ball also to be effective. Protecting a QB like David has to be of prime concern. At some point you are going to pass and hopefully it doesn't become kill the QB time for the other team.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 02:34 PM
The Texans are not going to abandon their blocking scheme and they don't run the ball any more than most NFL teams do, and we clearly are a better running team than a passing team. Carr only threw for 9 TD passes last year. How can that make anyone think that we are a passing team at heart?

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 02:36 PM
by the way how many times has Carr been sacked already this season

Vinny
09-22-2004, 02:40 PM
by the way how many times has Carr been sacked already this seasonI'm not sure I understand that answer...

Anyhoo, some of that is on Carr. Rob Johnson took tons of sacks in Buffalo and when they put Flutie in the sacks dropped tremendously with the same linemen. Carr has to do a better job with the pass rush as well.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 02:46 PM
I believe we can be great at both. One thing I would like to see though is more play action bombs down the field, Also David was a year younger and was hurt last year so I'm going to use this year to establish a judgement on his abilities and growth and so far I like what I see. Two touchdown passes so far, on pace for a 16 td season. I think hell pas for about 20 though.

Ibar_Harry
09-22-2004, 02:47 PM
Vinny, I believe we have far better and more receivers than running backs. David can throw the ball if he has protection. I know you don't agree, but I believe that is the case. I also believe DD has been effective because of the fear of the pass. He is a better runner when we are successful with the pass. Again there are two offensive philosophies. One is the run establishes the pass and the other is the pass establishes the run. I believe our team fits the latter mode of operation, but we have not been as successful because of our O-line. This should have been a good year for us, but it has turned sour. I believe the changing of the blocking scheme to emphasize the run is the major reason why. AGAIN I'M NOT ADVOCATING NOT RUNNING. Its the primary emphasis on setting up to run and all its implications for the passing game that I'm complaining about.

Bye the way I appreciated your earlier comment that you would look closely at the game replays. I hope you do and I hope you see what I'm saying. I think its more of a problem than people realize.

wags
09-22-2004, 02:47 PM
Some of that is on Carr. Rob Johnson took tons of sacks in Buffalo and when they put Flutie in the sacks dropped tremendously with the same linemen.

Rob Johnson was a statue in the pocket. He holds onto the ball longer than any QB ever. You put anyone in at QB and they will take less sacks than him. In our last game I would not put any one of the sacks on Carr. Rob Johnson. When he would go to the sidelines I think he had the trainers put cement on his shoes so he couldn't move around.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 02:49 PM
I believe we can be great at both. One thing I would like to see though is more play action bombs down the field, Also David was a year younger and was hurt last year so I'm going to use this year to establish a judgement on his abilities and growth and so far I like what I see. Two touchdown passes so far, on pace for a 16 td season. I think hell pas for about 20 though. You are right about one thing. Everything we expect out of Carr is potential and potential alone. We have no great comebacks where he took over a game with his arm. We have no 3 TD days to savor. We don't have any thrilling 30-35 point shoot outs we have won. We will have to wait to see if one day that is possible. I'm waiting to see it happen.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 02:52 PM
Rob Johnson was a statue in the pocket. He holds onto the ball longer than any QB ever. You put anyone in at QB and they will take less sacks than him. In our last game I would not put any one of the sacks on Carr. Rob Johnson. When he would go to the sidelines I think he had the trainers put cement on his shoes so he couldn't move around. Um, I assume you didn't watch many games with Johnson. Rob Johnson was as mobile as Carr and is as fast as any qb not named Michael Vick. Frankly, Johnson is probably faster than Carr but he had a poor feel for a pass rush and miserable field vision and tended to lock on to his wr's. Your characterization of Johnson is wide right.

wags
09-22-2004, 02:55 PM
I did watch him. He may have been fast, but you are right when you say he would lock on sit there, like a statue. I have not seen Carr lock on this year and wait. I have seen him scramble for yards and avoid sacks.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 02:55 PM
Yeah I saw alot of would be sacks that David broke out of. The ones he got sacked on he didnt stand a chance, one that I stated before was a blind side blitzer that nodody even looked at or touched. David even moved out of the way of the brunt of that one avoid getting his back broken. This line needs to solidify fast or we are going to ruin this telanted mans career. I'm really getting tired of seeing him run for his life.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 02:58 PM
I did watch him. He may have been fast, but you are right when you say he would lock on sit there, like a statue. I have not seen Carr lock on this year and wait. I have seen him scramble for yards and avoid sacks.
Carr is a better QB than Johnson will ever be, but they do share some traits. I have confidence Carr will do a better job with the rush as he evolves, but I'm not in denial that he has things to work on like most of you guys.

Ibar_Harry
09-22-2004, 03:03 PM
Vinny, Gannon was the toast of the town until someone found out how to get through the Oakland O-line and then he looked worse than Carr. No QB can withstand the lack of protection. If the QB doesn't have time he's going to look bad. We paid a lot of bucks for David and his arm. If all he's going to do is hand off and complete short passes because of lack of protection then you wasted a lot of money on him as your selection. Is David a Manning, right now I would say no, but I think he is a way above average QB who is not getting any time to complete his assignments. David has had to take a lot of hits and get right back up and go back into the huddle and that is not an easy assignment as you well know.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 03:04 PM
You are right about one thing. Everything we expect out of Carr is potential and potential alone. We have no great comebacks where he took over a game with his arm. We have no 3 TD days to savor. We don't have any thrilling 30-35 point shoot outs we have won. We will have to wait to see if one day that is possible. I'm waiting to see it happen.

I wasn't talking about potential in this statement I was talking about what I've seen so far this season. He has 2 td passes so far and is on par for a 16 td season so 20 isnt out of the question. Also he led 80 and 81 yard drives late in that game, but its kind of hard to lead a great comeback when your defense can't get a stop to save their life and yourcoach calls running plays right up the middle of the field when time is running out.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 03:06 PM
Vinny, I believe we have far better and more receivers than running backs. David can throw the ball if he has protection. I know you don't agree, but I believe that is the case. I also believe DD has been effective because of the fear of the pass. He is a better runner when we are successful with the pass. Again there are two offensive philosophies. One is the run establishes the pass and the other is the pass establishes the run. I believe our team fits the latter mode of operation, but we have not been as successful because of our O-line. This should have been a good year for us, but it has turned sour. I believe the changing of the blocking scheme to emphasize the run is the major reason why. AGAIN I'M NOT ADVOCATING NOT RUNNING. Its the primary emphasis on setting up to run and all its implications for the passing game that I'm complaining about.

Bye the way I appreciated your earlier comment that you would look closely at the game replays. I hope you do and I hope you see what I'm saying. I think its more of a problem than people realize.
I think your comment about line splits was one of your most astute comments you have ever offered up and show me you understand this stuff better than I thought you did. Good show.

I come with hard opinion but it's just me talking football with friends. Some of you guys blame the coaching. Some blame the line problems. Some guys blame Carr more for our lack of scoring. In reality none of us are probably right 100% but we all see different things and getting together on a message board and sharing our thoughts helps us understand the game better since two heads are generally better than one.

As to our ongoing debates, I told Infantrycak in a PM yesterday that I really kind of enjoy being in the minority view and a devil's advocate on message boards. You guys who disagree with me help me evolve my thinking if and when you can break down my posture on a subject. It's all good. We all learn from each other and multiple points of view drive great threads.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 03:10 PM
I wasn't talking about potential in this statement I was talking about what I've seen so far this season. He has 2 td passes so far and is on par for a 16 td season so 20 isnt out of the question. Also he led 80 and 81 yard drives late in that game, but its kind of hard to lead a great comeback when your defense can't get a stop to save their life and yourcoach calls running plays right up the middle of the field when time is running out. Well, I don't buy it yet. Those 4th quarter drives were not that impressive when you bust down the situations. I posted this at hpf earlier...but I will bring it here now...

Let's look at the 4th quarter activity. The Bradford TD was a blown coverage and the Texans only had one possession after that when we were down by two scores after Harrington drove his team down the field and iced the game with a TD pass to Williams in the most critical part of the game (we are behind 28-16 at that point).

After that the Lions were in a soft prevent and sitting on a two score lead and they gave us many of those underneath passes. We took the rest of the quarter to drive down the field and not score. Sure the passess were complete but what did it net? I mean, I can see the completion % has improved but look at the situation in the game as to what the real action was behind the stats. 4th Quarter starts

Houston Texans continued.
2-7-HST 49 (15:00) 37-D.Davis right end to DET 49 for 2 yards (92-S.Rogers).
3-5-DET 49 (14:20) 8-D.Carr pass to 88-D.Armstrong to DET 42 for 7 yards (25-F.Bryant). P16
1-10-DET 42 (13:48) 37-D.Davis left tackle to DET 35 for 7 yards (28-Bracy Walker; 31-B.Marion).
2-3-DET 35 (13:07) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 80-A.Johnson (29-C.Cash).
3-3-DET 35 (13:03) 37-D.Davis up the middle to DET 27 for 8 yards (38-K.Smith). R17
1-10-DET 27 (12:26) 8-D.Carr pass to 85-C.Bradford for 27 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P18
TWO-POINT CONVERSION ATTEMPT. 8-D.Carr pass to 86-J.Gaffney is incomplete. ATTEMPT FAILS. There was a blown coverage here and Carr spotted it as Bradford backs in to score. Way too early to go for two here. Nearly a full quarter of football left and with a Detroit field goal we would have been down by eight. Turns out they scored a TD and was ahead by 12 so it was a moot point but if they kicked a field goal that would have forced us to go for two again just to tie. If we took the one point pat we would not have been forced into taking a 2pt conv had they kicked the field goal. I was amazed we went for two at this point. This was a very questionable coaching decision imo.

Second and last possession of the 4th quarter:

2-7-HST 13 (4:12) 8-D.Carr pass to 82-B.Miller to HST 20 for 7 yards (59-A.Lewis).
PENALTY on HST-77-T.Washington, Tripping, 6 yards, enforced at HST 13 - No Play. Penalty on HST-78-S.Wand, Offensive Holding, declined.
2-13-HST 7 (4:07) 8-D.Carr FUMBLES (Aborted) at HST 6, and recovers at HST 6. 8-D.Carr to HST 6 for no gain (54-T.Lehman).
3-14-HST 6 (3:39) 8-D.Carr pass to 37-D.Davis to HST 21 for 15 yards (59-A.Lewis). P19
1-10-HST 21 (3:13) 8-D.Carr pass to 88-D.Armstrong to HST 41 for 20 yards (42-T.Holt). P20
1-10-HST 41 (2:53) 8-D.Carr pass to 37-D.Davis to HST 47 for 6 yards (54-T.Lehman). DET #96-Hall injured on play.
2-4-HST 47 (2:33) 37-D.Davis up the middle to DET 48 for 5 yards (59-A.Lewis). R21
1-10-DET 48 (2:14) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr sacked at HST 44 for -8 yards (94-M.Bell).
2-18-HST 44 (2:01) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 80-A.Johnson.
Two-Minute Warning
3-18-HST 44 (1:56) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass to 88-D.Armstrong pushed ob at DET 45 for 11 yards (59-A.Lewis).
4-7-DET 45 (1:47) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass to 88-D.Armstrong to DET 34 for 11 yards (25-F.Bryant; 59-A.Lewis). P22
1-10-DET 34 (1:21) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 80-A.Johnson.
2-10-DET 34 (1:19) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr right end ran ob at DET 23 for 11 yards (28-Bracy Walker). R23
1-10-DET 23 (1:13) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 88-D.Armstrong.
2-10-DET 23 (1:09) 8-D.Carr pass to 80-A.Johnson to DET 15 for 8 yards (31-B.Marion).
Timeout #1 by HST at 01:03.
3-2-DET 15 (1:03) (Shotgun) PENALTY on DET-92-S.Rogers, Encroachment, 5 yards, enforced at DET 15 - No Play. X24
1-10-DET 10 (1:03) 8-D.Carr pass incomplete to 80-A.Johnson.
2-10-DET 10 (:58) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr sacked at DET 17 for -7 yards (96-J.Hall).
Timeout #2 by HST at 00:50.
3-17-DET 17 (:50) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr pass to 37-D.Davis to DET 5 for 12 yards (54-T.Lehman; 26-R.Babers).
Timeout #3 by HST at 00:42.
4-5-DET 5 (:42) (Shotgun) 8-D.Carr up the middle to DET 1 for 4 yards (94-M.Bell).
Infantrycak, I will grant you his raw stats improved but we had the ball two times in the 4th quarter and only scored on a blown coverage. The last drive was a ton of gimmie passes and we still didn't get the TD to give us a shot to win it.

The real impressive drive was Harrington's drive at 12:20 to ice the game and leave us with 4:20 and a two score margin. Carr then drove the field against a soft zone and didn't puch it in while Harrington drove the field and threw a TD pass to Williams to ice the game against a defense that was not in a soft prevent defense.

Detroit Lions at 12:20, (1st play from scrimmage 12:13)
1-10-DET 20 (12:13) 21-A.Pinner up the middle to DET 24 for 4 yards (56-J.Foreman).
2-6-DET 24 (11:33) 3-J.Harrington pass to 11-R.Williams to DET 32 for 8 yards (23-D.Robinson). P14
1-10-DET 32 (10:57) 3-J.Harrington pass to 84-T.Streets to DET 36 for 4 yards (23-D.Robinson, 52-K.Wong).
2-6-DET 36 (10:17) 3-J.Harrington pass to 34-K.Jones to DET 49 for 13 yards (26-G.Earl). P15
1-10-DET 49 (9:30) 34-K.Jones left end to DET 46 for -3 yards (56-J.Foreman).
2-13-DET 46 (8:46) 3-J.Harrington pass incomplete to 30-C.Schlesinger (99-R.Smith).
3-13-DET 46 (8:40) (Shotgun) 3-J.Harrington pass to 84-T.Streets ran ob at HST 37 for 17 yards. P16
1-10-HST 37 (8:10) 21-A.Pinner up the middle to HST 33 for 4 yards (91-S.Payne).
2-6-HST 33 (7:25) (Shotgun) PENALTY on DET-73-S.McDougle, False Start, 5 yards, enforced at HST 33 - No Play.
2-11-HST 38 (7:04) 3-J.Harrington right end to HST 33 for 5 yards (55-J.Sharper).
3-6-HST 33 (6:16) 3-J.Harrington pass to 81-A.Hakim to HST 19 for 14 yards (42-M.Coleman). P17
1-10-HST 19 (5:29) 21-A.Pinner up the middle to HST 14 for 5 yards (52-K.Wong).
2-5-HST 14 (4:48) 3-J.Harrington pass to 11-R.Williams for 14 yards, TOUCHDOWN. P18
4-J.Hanson extra point is GOOD, Center-57-J.Littleton, Holder-2-N.Harris.You can also note that once we got to the 23 yard line in our last possession we had seven shots at trying to score a TD and came up with air.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 03:12 PM
Carr is a better QB than Johnson will ever be, but they do share some traits. I have confidence Carr will do a better job with the rush as he evolves, but I'm not in denial that he has things to work on like most of you guys.

Ive never sated that Carr has arrived, Ive simply stated that hes gotten alot better and will continue to get better and mature as the team gets better and mature around him. Also don't be in denial about the line play right now its really starting to scare me. BTW how many times has Carr been sacked this year

DoCt3rJ
09-22-2004, 03:12 PM
Look, David Carr is still maturing. I still expect him to throw as many TD's as INT's. Im just hoping for more touchdowns this year, more yards, and a higher completion perecentage. Now, if hes still doin this stuff at his 7th year, maybe you can speculate, but untill then you can't.

wags
09-22-2004, 03:17 PM
Vinny, please. Let's give Carr credit for stepping up in the pocket and spotting that busted coverage. Let's not discredit that TD. I'm sure many QB's enjoy taking advantage of busted coverage, and still count those as legit TD's. Also, didn't Carr hit AJ for a sideline bomb, only to get jobbed by the refs. That would have put us inside the five, and more than likely would have led to a TD.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 03:19 PM
Ive never sated that Carr has arrived, Ive simply stated that hes gotten alot better and will continue to get better and mature as the team gets better and mature around him. Also don't be in denial about the line play right now its really starting to scare me. BTW how many times has Carr been sacked this year Look, you are a Carr apologist and a big fan of the dude so that's all cool. I break down what I see and I'm not overly impressed to date although I feel much better about him today than I did a year ago. Perhaps you are right and I am wrong. You keep apologizing for our lack of TD's and I will continue to post what I see in real time. To me, I see that most of your posturing is about what he is going to do one day and most of my posts are about what he is doing right now. I just tend to break down what I see more than gloss about what we may become.

Its a team game and I realize that Carr needs help. I just wish I had ONE game where he had great drives to win a game for us with his arm. If I had a couple of games where he totally takes over the game and puts the team on his back Id probably be less cynical about the guys upside.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 03:22 PM
A td is a td, I expect a good qb to take full advantage blown coverage that what he is supposed to do. Also if you want to nick pick situation what about the blown call on the AJ pass. That was in double coverage and not a gimmie pass and could of set up a 3rd td. The point is I really don't know why we're talking about this. David didn't lose us the game, he played good and had a good game. Our defense, special teams, and excessive turnovers cost us the game.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 03:28 PM
A td is a td, I expect a good qb to take full advantage blown coverage that what he is supposed to do. Also if you want to nick pick situation what about the blown call on the AJ pass. That was in double coverage and not a gimmie pass and could of set up a 3rd td. The point is I really don't know why we're talking about this. David didn't lose us the game, he played good and had a good game. Our defense, special teams, and excessive turnovers cost us the game.
I know why we are talking about him.....because you guys tend to blame the coaches and the line and give Carr a free pass.

Like I said...you may be right. Carry on. It's all good.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 03:31 PM
In other words there are bigger fish to fry right now. Also Im not a "Carr" fan I'm a fan of this team. I just very patient and I know it takes time to develop a quarterback especialy one that was put in the circumstances that he was. I'm not out there saying Carr is a Probowler right now. I'm just stating that hes playing better this year and I'm happy with his play this season and I'm excited to see how much he'll grow over the course of this season.

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 03:37 PM
I know why we are talking about him.....because you guys tend to blame the coaches and the line and give Carr a free pass.

Like I said...you may be right. Carry on. It's all good.

I not giving him a free pass its more of a "grace" period that ends at the end of this year. Look if he doesn't make significant improvement I'll be the first one to start questioning, but as of right now its just to soon. Second on blaming the coaches alot of people tend to do that after two disapointing losses. I'll admit I was a little hard on them but I was pissed and needed to vent. Although there were some questionable calls in that game.

Vinny
09-22-2004, 03:40 PM
true dat.

You make solid points. I think that I am a bit on the fringe as it pertains to this topic but I thought we needed a minority view on this and I don't mind being the bad guy.

;)

Carr Bombed
09-22-2004, 03:47 PM
I enjoy any debate good or bad especialy when you get both sides of it. Just wish those damn texans can scratch out a win and a streak at that so this board won't be so negative. I'm tire of talking about losing. Well it was good chating with you, got to go paint my living room now :thumbdown damn I hate painting.

edo783
09-22-2004, 04:14 PM
Don't worry about Vinny. He is just part of that Fringe element we hear the news people talk about. :-)

cuppacoffee
09-22-2004, 05:33 PM
Herv- I didn't need to read the items again, it was too much of the coulda, shoulda, woulda game. Yes, TO change games, but they are part of the game. Same as ST's. The better teams excel at not turning the ball over, capitalizing on TO's, and playing better ST's, Nuff Said.

Bet it aint. lol: