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View Full Version : Why didn't we challenge a weak secondary?


profan
09-19-2004, 07:47 PM
With the receivers we have on this offense, why didn't we go downfield more and challenge the secondary. This offense is giving DD too many touches, while forgetting about Johnson, Bradford, etc. AJ may be the best athlete we have on this team and to have only 3 touches against Detroit is unbelievable.

BornOrange
09-19-2004, 07:51 PM
AJ was being covered by the best corner on the field today, Fernando Bryant.

BornOrange
09-19-2004, 07:53 PM
Oh, and we did challenge a weak secondary today.

We challenged our secondary to shut down Roy Williams.

Fiddy
09-19-2004, 08:07 PM
Because our coaches are not good coaches.I wouldnt blame the coaches just yet. I need to know if they are telling Carr to dump down the ball to Davis everytime Carr steps back to pass....

JustBonee
09-19-2004, 08:14 PM
I wouldnt blame the coaches just yet. I need to know if they are telling Carr to dump down the ball to Davis everytime Carr steps back to pass....
Yes, something was terribly wrong with what we witnessed today.
That was the total game plan ??

Fiddy
09-19-2004, 08:17 PM
Yes, something was terribly wrong with what we witnessed today.
That was the total game plan ??I'll try to get an answer out of Capers tomorrow when I call his radio show on SR610...it will probably be a political answer though

wags
09-19-2004, 08:20 PM
The Lions seemed to do the same thing. I noticed Harrington only threw for 175 yards or so.

gibsquad
09-19-2004, 08:28 PM
Johnson is such a talent, Carr is such a talent and Davis gets small chunks until he fumbles. Davis gets what 30 touches in the game and makes a negative contribution (points off his turnovers). Yes I feel he is being given too much of the offense with the others weapons Hou. has. My 2 cents!!

geka
09-19-2004, 09:09 PM
why you ask?

the weak spot of there D is the secondary
the strong part of our O is the pass

1+1=2

we should have passed all day or atleast alot more then we did that would make sense.

but this is where our coaches screw it all up. They over think it, they think if we know we can pass all over them and they know we can they will defend against it and we can run 90yard downfield with under 4mins left and down by 2 scores.

there are 2 options Carr is the dumbest QB ever or our coaches are i still have some faith in Carr but i have lost all in the coaches

this is the first time i have thought our coaches need to go even last week I though it was to soon but they are a joke ruining our team.

NoBullTexan
09-19-2004, 09:23 PM
What bothers me the most is both Detroit's DTs were just blasting past our Pitts, McKinny, and Weigert, like they were statues. Is this a product of our guards being overrated or is the coaching staff finally being exposed as incompetent, or what is more likely a little of each?

Diminick Davis's fumbles are gonna keep haunting us until he does a better job of covering up the ball.

The offensive line again had trouble pass blocking in the first half. Sometimes the Detroit defense seemed to be on him before Carr even got the ball. Our bugaboo with the red zone showed its evil head again today. We just cannot move the ball when its inside the 10 yard line. :thumbdown

Tulip
09-19-2004, 09:34 PM
I wouldnt blame the coaches just yet. I need to know if they are telling Carr to dump down the ball to Davis everytime Carr steps back to pass....

Oh, good - it's not just me who is a little concerned about Carr's reliance on Davis as his primary target.

aj.
09-19-2004, 10:06 PM
Pitts got burned inside twice for sacks
What bothers me the most is both Detroit's DTs were just blasting past our Pitts, McKinny, and Weigert,

Sack 1 was mostly Wiegert's but Wand also lost his block.

Sack 2 was the blown blitz pick up on the left side. Wand and Pitts were both engaged in blocks and weren't beaten. Det LB Davis came through unabated. Looks like Carr failed to recognize the obvious blitz situation when he came up to the line. Plus, both Baxter and DD shot off-tackle right and one (probably Baxter) should have stayed back to pick up the LB.

Sack 3 wasn't much of a sack - it was more of a hurry. In fact, I'm surprised they called that a sack. Carr was hurried but Wand was able to finish off his block before the rusher got a clean shot at him. Carr stumbled as he was flushed left out of the pocket and fumbled. That was one where Carr should have stepped up in the pocket.

Sack 4 was all on Todd Washington

Sack 5 was Wand getting run over by Hall

It doesn't appear that Pitts or McKinney had much to do with any of the 5 sacks.

Wiegert left the game in the 2nd qtr and didn't return.

dalemurphy
09-20-2004, 01:11 AM
because we dont have a qb that can make good reads that why.

I'd love to see what Harrington would have done if we were constantly collapsing the pocket and hitting him with seven men in coverage. The Lions front four dominated our OL in pass blocking. And, if you noticed, our success running the ball was to the outside as well. Wilkinson and Rogers ate the OL's lunch all day in run defense.

Another question: why did Andre Johnson not run a single short crossing route all day long? Do you actually have to call yourself a "West Coast Offense" before you can send your best receivers on shallow crosses?

Kingzofthejungle
09-20-2004, 01:51 AM
I'd love to see what Harrington would have done if we were constantly collapsing the pocket and hitting him with seven men in coverage. The Lions front four dominated our OL in pass blocking. And, if you noticed, our success running the ball was to the outside as well. Wilkinson and Rogers ate the OL's lunch all day in run defense.

Another question: why did Andre Johnson not run a single short crossing route all day long? Do you actually have to call yourself a "West Coast Offense" before you can send your best receivers on shallow crosses?

One of reasons Joey doesn't get sacked much is becuase he makes his reads pretty quickly pre and post snap. He also has a quick release. In addition most of our routes and intermediate routes where you guys seem to run deeper routes. :twocents:

Kingzofthejungle
09-20-2004, 01:54 AM
What bothers me the most is both Detroit's DTs were just blasting past our Pitts, McKinny, and Weigert, like they were statues. Is this a product of our guards being overrated or is the coaching staff finally being exposed as incompetent, or what is more likely a little of each?

Diminick Davis's fumbles are gonna keep haunting us until he does a better job of covering up the ball.

The offensive line again had trouble pass blocking in the first half. Sometimes the Detroit defense seemed to be on him before Carr even got the ball. Our bugaboo with the red zone showed its evil head again today. We just cannot move the ball when its inside the 10 yard line. :thumbdown

Don't feel to badly. Our Dline was doing the same thing last week against Chicago. Shawn Rogers is a load and headed to the Pro-Bowl he has been an alternate 2 of his 3 years in the league. :twocents:

dmt217
09-20-2004, 10:46 AM
With the receivers we have on this offense, why didn't we go downfield more and challenge the secondary. This offense is giving DD too many touches, while forgetting about Johnson, Bradford, etc. AJ may be the best athlete we have on this team and to have only 3 touches against Detroit is unbelievable.

I think it's b/c.....

1. The Lions were using the Cover 2 defense a lot (Capers mentioned this after the game). This should've gave some opportunities for Miller, Bruener, or Gaffney to go across the middle.....but....

2. Carr probably made his reads starting w/ AJ, then Bradford, then DD most of the time.

3. The Lions D-line > our O-line. Carr needs more time to throw. The O-line is still gelling w/ the new blocking scheme.

4. Conservative play-calling. IMO, the coaches should've stretched the field w/ 3 or 4 WR sets early in the game.

El Tejano
09-20-2004, 11:03 AM
We did challenge them. We just did it way too late in the game. I always wondered how come we don't ever go to a four wide receiver set on 3rd and 5 or so. Armstrong can and will be a very productive 3rd down receiver.

RTP2110
09-20-2004, 02:13 PM
Last night on Inside The GAme on ch. 13 Bob Allen asked Casserly we the Texans didn't throw deep in the 1st half. The best response Casserly had was, "Well, they played alot of cover 2 early.." What, did they just quit playing cover 2 in the second half? I doubt it, especially when it held Carr to only 70 yards in the 1st half.

TexanAggie
09-20-2004, 02:36 PM
AJ was being covered by the best corner on the field today, Fernando Bryant.

ok so that is one what about the other 3 - bradford, gaff and armstrong, or maybe our te's . This offense did not die because one wr was covered by the best or why not let AJ make a play at least give him a chance not this timid **** we are doing now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Ihategeeks
09-20-2004, 02:37 PM
Chris Cash the Lions Backup Nickle Conrer was covering AJ for most of the game. Bryant was on Bradford.

Chance_C
09-20-2004, 03:27 PM
the strong part of our O is the pass

The weak part is our pass protection, you figure it out.

One of reasons Joey doesn't get sacked much is becuase he makes his reads pretty quickly pre and post snap. He also has a quick release

I'll agree with that, and go one further. It has alot to do with the 3 step drops, and 5 step drops, and quick swing passes. Similar to what we did alot of last year.

Fiddy
09-20-2004, 04:32 PM
I think it's b/c.....

1. The Lions were using the Cover 2 defense a lot (Capers mentioned this after the game). This should've gave some opportunities for Miller, Bruener, or Gaffney to go across the middle.....but....

2. Carr probably made his reads starting w/ AJ, then Bradford, then DD most of the time.

3. The Lions D-line > our O-line. Carr needs more time to throw. The O-line is still gelling w/ the new blocking scheme.

4. Conservative play-calling. IMO, the coaches should've stretched the field w/ 3 or 4 WR sets early in the game.1. So when we face the Colts twice this year should I expect a loss with no offense because they are running cover 2??? That is an excuse I have heard too much with Capers. "We took what the defense gave us" is what I always hear from Capers after the Texans lose to a team that runs cover 2 and guess what, I dont think we have beaten a team that runs cover 2. With all the offensive weapons, we need to say "We are going to take what we want and you wont be able to stop us"

2. Then why did Carr step back, stay in the pocket for a second and then dump it down.

3. If the o-line is getting blasted up by the opposing d-line then go into 3 WR sets out of the shotgun and keep 2 backs there to block..

Porky
09-20-2004, 06:45 PM
1. So when we face the Colts twice this year should I expect a loss with no offense because they are running cover 2??? That is an excuse I have heard too much with Capers. "We took what the defense gave us" is what I always hear from Capers after the Texans lose to a team that runs cover 2 and guess what, I dont think we have beaten a team that runs cover 2. With all the offensive weapons, we need to say "We are going to take what we want and you wont be able to stop us"

2. Then why did Carr step back, stay in the pocket for a second and then dump it down.

3. If the o-line is getting blasted up by the opposing d-line then go into 3 WR sets out of the shotgun and keep 2 backs there to block..

Fiddy, you are wise beyond your years. I especially agree with #1. I have yet seen a consistent championship team or coach talk about taking what the defense gave us as much as Capers and crew. To hell with taking what they give us. How about we start taking what the hell we please, when we please, and how we please. And after were done with that, we'll take some more, and you'll like it. And, protect your women and children while your at it, because affter we ravish the countryside, we're comin for em. All of em. HAHAHAHA. It's all about attitude, and frankly, he has them playing timidly.

If football is war, then Dom Capers is Commander Woody Allen. :hehe:

infantrycak
09-20-2004, 07:08 PM
Fiddy, you are wise beyond your years. I especially agree with #1. I have yet seen a consistent championship team or coach talk about taking what the defense gave us as much as Capers and crew. To hell with taking what they give us. How about we start taking what the hell we please, when we please, and how we please.

Now this is just getting out of hand. It is an elementary principal that you attack an opponent's weakness, not his strength. EVERY coach cites this truism through some statement equivalent to attacking the weakness, taking what they give, exploiting match-ups, finding the seams--they are all talking about the same thing. Our WR's are not one trick ponies that need to catch the ball 40+ yds down field. Quite the contrary, AJ and Bradford are both excellent threats to take 10+ yd catches and make things happen after the catch. Playing against cover 2 schemes it is much smarter to take these high percentage, lower risk plays and let the talent make the plays.

Plus, the idea that the Texans are not taking shots down field and are soooo much more conservative than the rest of the league is hooey. Take a look at the results for other QB's so far:

First the guys ahead of Carr:

Testeverde 11 plays over 20 yards
Bulger 7
Brady 11
Carr 7 over 20 and 1 over 40--plus the 40+ yd non-reception reception by AJ last weekend.

Some other QB's:
Pennington 7 over 20 and 3 over 40
Harrington 6
Hassellbeck 4
Favre 3 over 20 and 1 over 40
Green 4 over 20 and 1 over 40
McNair 1
Plummer 6 over 20 and 1 over 40
and Mr. Air Attack himself
Manning 7 over 20 and 4 over 40

Yeah, KC, the Seahawks, GB and the Rams sure do run conservative offenses. Yeah if they keep turning the ball over they are going to go 0-16 but it won't be due to failing to attack the other team's strength or not taking shots down field.

Fiddy
09-20-2004, 07:25 PM
It is an elementary principal that you attack an opponent's weakness, not his strength.And the Lions weakness was their secondary, which was missing their star CB and was playing a 6th round draft pick from a year ago against one of the best WRs in the league...run a couple of post routes to get behind the corner and in front of the safety, go into max protection to get extra time to go deep. What did all the dump downs to Davis do??? The defense was going to give the dump downs to Davis and the Texans all day long because it wasnt going to beat them...

LiveForTheGame
09-20-2004, 07:37 PM
Dom Capers said on the radio that they weren't able to go deep on them. Sometimes it's the scheme and how it's played in the secondary rather than the guys you have back there.

aj.
09-20-2004, 08:40 PM
Chris Cash the Lions Backup Nickle Conrer was covering AJ for most of the gameCash had deep safety help on nearly every play. Marion doubled down on AJ on almost every play over 15 yards. The only play where they were able to iso Cash on AJ in man was the long TD catch and we saw what kind of mismatch that was. Cash held him (literally) for the first 5 yards (no flag) and he still got torched.

Fiddy
09-20-2004, 08:44 PM
Cash had deep safety help on nearly every play.Then why dont you use a little motion to free AJ or bunch one side of the field with 3 WRs???

Porky
09-20-2004, 10:31 PM
Fiddy, you are wise beyond your years. Where have I heard that before! Exactly! My man Fiddy has hit upon it again. Q. - Where is the motion in this offense. A. There isn't any. How about an empty backfield, with five WR's. How about throwing to the frickin TE. I just called the police to put out an APB on Billy Miller. How many of those over 20 yard plays are to a RB on a screen or dumpoff, and how many to WR's? Some of you folks act like only the Texans play against a cover 2 scheme, and that AJ is the only WR ever double covered. I say grow some nads, or get out of the game. I refuse to buy this theory that every team takes what is given. Of course, you exploit favorable matchups. Hello - Detroit's best CB was out, and one of their #2 CB's was out, leaving a third stringer and Fernando Bryant, a decent cover corner nobody will mistake for Champ Bailey. If you want to exploit a cover two, there are ways to do, and STILL 'take what they give you'. How about a deep seam route by Billy Miller, or Gaffney in the slot? That's one way to exploit the cover 2 with safety help on the two WR's. I'm sure there are many more. If anyone would care to prove to me that other teams never exploit the cover 2, I'm all eyes.

Secondly, when I say I'm tired of taking what they give, I am speaking mainly of an attitude. We need a bash you in the face, take no prisoners approach. There is just too much mild-mannered ho-hum, take what's given crapola to me. And, lastly, there is WAY too much reliance on DD. I think an empty backfield might force Carr to seek out other options.

Bash away :popcorn:

RTP2110
09-20-2004, 11:57 PM
Capers makes it sound like if a team is playing cover 2 you can't complete a pass downfield. Even if you guys are covered you still have to take some chances. What ever happened to just throwing it up and letting your stud WR go and get it. That's why we drafted AJ to make catches while covered and in traffic. If they won't throw to him unless he is wide open, the they might as well just have Gaffney and Armstrong starting because they are the most sure handed of our WR's.

JaguarsFan1
09-21-2004, 12:38 AM
AJ was being covered by the best corner on the field today, Fernando Bryant.


Please tell me you don't think 'Nando is good. He had been burnt in J-ville so much the fans called him "Toast".

Ihategeeks
09-21-2004, 01:30 AM
Please tell me you don't think 'Nando is good. He had been burnt in J-ville so much the fans called him "Toast".

Well he's been JAM in Detroit. Stepped it up as the main guy
And every jags fan I have talked too had nothing but praise for him, citing his only real failing was jump balls he would often not force the ball from the WR.

Heck, wasn't Nando a Pro Bowl Alternate ?

Ihategeeks
09-21-2004, 01:32 AM
Cash had deep safety help on nearly every play. Marion doubled down on AJ on almost every play over 15 yards. The only play where they were able to iso Cash on AJ in man was the long TD catch and we saw what kind of mismatch that was. Cash held him (literally) for the first 5 yards (no flag) and he still got torched.

Bracey walker was supposed to be over the top of that, and AJ burnt him too (not really surprised)

Bracey was the one who dove for AJ's ankles. It was just busted play all over the place for the Lions D.

Marcus
09-21-2004, 01:39 AM
Capers makes it sound like if a team is playing cover 2 you can't complete a pass downfield. Even if you guys are covered you still have to take some chances. What ever happened to just throwing it up and letting your stud WR go and get it. That's why we drafted AJ to make catches while covered and in traffic. If they won't throw to him unless he is wide open, the they might as well just have Gaffney and Armstrong starting because they are the most sure handed of our WR's.

You're not going to find a coach in the NFL who is going to go up top against a Cover 2. I know that some of you want to throw the long bomb every single friggen play like you did 45 years ago when you were playing touch football in the street using sidewalks as sidelines . . . but if you throw deep into double coverage in the NFL, it'a a bad decision . . . period. Where does timidity fit into all this?

You say tomatoe, I say tomato. You say take a chance, I say don't be a fool.

infantrycak
09-21-2004, 09:35 AM
And the Lions weakness was their secondary, which was missing their star CB and was playing a 6th round draft pick from a year ago against one of the best WRs in the league...run a couple of post routes to get behind the corner and in front of the safety, go into max protection to get extra time to go deep.

It is all well and good to say a back up player is in so he is a weakness, but you have to be able to isolate the weakness in order to exploit it. By going to cover 2 the Lions made sure that the Texans' WR's were not working against individuals deep. So the weakness to their secondary was in seems and underneath which was what the Texans tried and did successfully exploit. The Texans did try to work deep and when given the right combination of route, execution and no blind officials completed five down the field strikes.

What did all the dump downs to Davis do??? The defense was going to give the dump downs to Davis and the Texans all day long because it wasnt going to beat them...

Since the debate about Hollings v. Davis you have seemed intent on discounting anything Davis does IMO. In any event, what did they do?--they moved the chains and produced 10.3 yards on average. That kind of production is tremendous. The hallmark of a solid play-off bound team is 7-10 play 80 yard, time consuming drives, not constant 3 and outs due to trying every time to go 80 yards in 2 plays.

All this hand-wringing about the play calling needs to wait until the Texans aren't producing very well on offense, and aren't giving away games with 7 freakin' turnovers (call it eight with the gimme KR for a TD).

Marcus
09-21-2004, 06:58 PM
All this hand-wringing about the play calling needs to wait until the Texans aren't producing very well on offense, and aren't giving away games with 7 freakin' turnovers (call it eight with the gimme KR for a TD).

Well you know cak, that certainly isn't going to set well with the "Yeah turnovers hurt us, BUT . . " crowd. lol:

And as for "exploiting" the Cover 2 coverage, how about asking the offensive line to give David some time to look downfield first . . . maybe give him a chance to find a seam, instead of only gving him enough time to dump it off to Davis and let him fumble it again.

And the kicker is, even though he's not been given that much time to throw, he's still putting up decent numbers, and if it hadn't been for the turnovers, it would be 2-0 instead of 0-2.

Oh, OK? conservative play-calling, right? :wacko: