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Marcus
09-07-2006, 09:07 AM
I'm shocked that's 9 am and nobody has linked THIS (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4168882.html) yet, because IMO, it's one of his more informative reads.

He does make a lot of assumptions about how much that Carr really knows or understands what he's doing wrong.



___

HOU-TEX
09-07-2006, 09:18 AM
I'm shocked that's 9 am and nobody has linked THIS (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4168882.html) yet, because IMO, it's one of his more informative reads.

He does make a lot of assumptions about how much that Carr really knows or understands what he's doing wrong.



___

Nice read. At least they're seeing what the fans are seeing. That's the first step, now let's hope he can achieve the second step.:spy:

NJ Texan
09-07-2006, 09:19 AM
The Texans used their first draft pick ever on a franchise quarterback, then never gave him a chance to succeed. They never protected him, never put enough talent around him.

That says alot. Good read.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 09:23 AM
I guess it largely depends on how you define "a chance to succeed." I think that most people would concur that giving the #1 player in the draft the starting position would the be the only "chance" they need. If they need more than that what was their real value as a #1?

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 09:30 AM
I guess it largely depends on how you define "a chance to succeed." I think that most people would concur that giving the #1 player in the draft the starting position would the be the only "chance" they need. If they need more than that what was their real value as a #1?

Well I guess Elway, Aikman, Manning have all had no value then since all needed teams built around them. Way, way overstated KT.

[disclaimer for the reading impaired--nothing in this post is comparing any talent or attribute of any QB whose name does not appear in this post with any QB whose name is mentioned]

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 09:32 AM
Well I guess Elway, Aikman, Manning have all had no value then since all needed teams built around them. Way, way overstated KT.

[disclaimer for the reading impaired--nothing in this post is comparing any talent or attribute of any QB whose name does not appear in this post with any QB whose name is mentioned]

Nice throw in with a salary cap era #1 QB. But whether its his name or Carr's I do not like #1 QB's. However, Manning went through 3-13 and turned out alright. Maybe it is in his DNA.

Marcus
09-07-2006, 09:34 AM
I guess it largely depends on how you define "a chance to succeed." I think that most people would concur that giving the #1 player in the draft the starting position would the be the only "chance" they need. If they need more than that what was their real value as a #1?
Well, if they actually concur with with that, then they are being naive. John Elway, Roger Staubach, and a host of other great quarterbacks had to have a team around them in order to give them "a chance to succeed".

Cjeremy635
09-07-2006, 09:35 AM
I guess it largely depends on how you define "a chance to succeed." I think that most people would concur that giving the #1 player in the draft the starting position would the be the only "chance" they need. If they need more than that what was their real value as a #1?


I hope your statement wasn't serious, atleast not in his case. Having a #1 player going to an undeveloped football team and having them turn all pro out of the gate is asking too much from anyone, especially the QB position. Now do I think it's time for him to show major improvement or step aside, absolutely. It's going to be hard to undo the damage caused by the last 4 years, maybe it can't be done, but we will know midway or later in this season if he's worthy of being our starting QB. I know you weren't insinuating the he be an all pro type player right off the bat, but he should have had the opportunity to be better than he has been and I am aggrevated that he wasn't given a legit chance to excel in a good system. Unfortunately, there have been too many "what ifs" over the last couple of seasons and we're all holding on to peices of hope that we've seen in random games of the past. Will he look like he did when we played Minnesota and he brought us back for overtime? Will he look like he did when he was able to call his own plays? Who knows, but we will find out this Sunday and put some of these questions/issues to rest.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 09:39 AM
Well, if they actually concur with with that, then they are being naive. John Elway, Roger Staubach, and a host of other great quarterbacks had to have a team around them in order to give them "a chance to succeed".

I only speak in these terms in the salary cap era. It is a different game than back then.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 09:43 AM
It was a pretty good article because Carr knows he's got to step it up and is under pressure to perform, not just learn. The only thing about the article that is suspect is where he says "Kubiak has taken care of the talent issues." No, Kubiak has addressed a bad system, he is far from done in bringing in talent. Does anyone think he's going to overcome his shellshockness in one game against the Eagles under Kubiaks new system? I want to talk to you......gotta nice big area of land in Arizona I might be interested in selling.

cuppacoffee
09-07-2006, 09:43 AM
I guess it largely depends on how you define "a chance to succeed." I think that most people would concur that giving the #1 player in the draft the starting position would the be the only "chance" they need. If they need more than that what was their real value as a #1?

You can't really believe what you just typed?..:dontknowa

Your Carr-hate-itis has caused you to lose all perspective where he is concerned.

JMHO of course.

:coffee:

Marcus
09-07-2006, 09:54 AM
You can't really believe what you just typed?..:dontknowa:coffee:
I couldn't believe he said that either. I'm not going to bother to respond to it any more than I already did.:(

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 09:58 AM
You can't really believe what you just typed?..:dontknowa

Your Carr-hate-itis has caused you to lose all perspective where he is concerned.

JMHO of course.

:coffee:

If you are someone who is not in the business of defining expectations, setting them appropriately over a term and then measuring them accordingly due to the percentage of the cap that investment takes up then I can understand your lack of understanding by my statement. JMHO of course.

Rightnow
09-07-2006, 09:58 AM
That was a good read. It sounds to me that the players, coaches, most fans and even the Chronicle is pulling for David to become the QB we've always wanted him to be. I certainly hope that he does it. The odds seem to be in his favor.

HOU-TEX
09-07-2006, 10:02 AM
That was a good read. It sounds to me that the players, coaches, most fans and even the Chronicle is pulling for David to become the QB we've always wanted him to be. I certainly hope that he does it. The odds seem to be in his favor.

From what I gather, it's all up to him now. Kubiak has supplied him with the weapons, the protection (hopefully) and the QB friendly offensive scheme/playbook. He's got to learn to trust his teamates again.:cool:

Marcus
09-07-2006, 10:03 AM
It was a pretty good article because Carr knows he's got to step it up and is under pressure to perform, not just learn. The only thing about the article that is suspect is where he says "Kubiak has taken care of the talent issues." No, Kubiak has addressed a bad system, he is far from done in bringing in talent. Does anyone think he's going to overcome his shellshockness in one game against the Eagles under Kubiaks new system? I want to talk to you......gotta nice big area of land in Arizona I might be interested in selling.
Before I read that article, I wondered if Carr really understood what he was doing on the field that was driving everyone crazy. I guess it's driving him crazy too . . that being unable to conquer his own demons.

I wonder if he drinks tequila. Seems to me a shot or two of Patron just before he gets on the field would settle his nerves, and he'd do just fine.;)

TexansLucky13
09-07-2006, 10:19 AM
It was a pretty good article because Carr knows he's got to step it up and is under pressure to perform, not just learn. The only thing about the article that is suspect is where he says "Kubiak has taken care of the talent issues." No, Kubiak has addressed a bad system, he is far from done in bringing in talent. Does anyone think he's going to overcome his shellshockness in one game against the Eagles under Kubiaks new system? I want to talk to you......gotta nice big area of land in Arizona I might be interested in selling.

I'll buy that if you throw the Golden Gate in free. :)

I agree with you, SES. But it is still interesting to see the responses that the players have to his changes, and not just the fans. I do not expect Carr to immediately turn into an All-Pro QB in one game, much less one season. But I do expect changes, of which we have already seen. We will have to wait until Sunday to truely know if Carr trusts his line.... and it will be an exceptional test indeed. It is hard to admit, but the Eagles have one of the most powerful D-lines I have ever laid eyes on (Yes, these are young eyes... I was not around for the Steel Curtain and so on).

To KT.... I agree with you that #1 QBs are dangerous. But in this case I feel that it was a number of things that have led to his performance. You can't expect a #1 to just come in and change a team. They got that #1 pick for a reason, as you know (even though it was a unique situation with the Texans).

cuppacoffee
09-07-2006, 10:57 AM
If you are someone who is not in the business of defining expectations, setting them appropriately over a term and then measuring them accordingly due to the percentage of the cap that investment takes up then I can understand your lack of understanding by my statement. JMHO of course.

And your are?

What cap numbers do you have to work with?

What number do you assign to your quarterback?

I am sure that Carr is disappointed that he is not living up to your expectations...:rolleyes:

Explain please how you can expect Carr to be successful simply because of his cap number? :brickwall

I understand your statement thoroughly. Conclusion, you do not understand the team concept.


:coffee:

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 10:57 AM
Nice throw in with a salary cap era #1 QB. But whether its his name or Carr's I do not like #1 QB's. However, Manning went through 3-13 and turned out alright. Maybe it is in his DNA.

No QB in the salary cap era or otherwise succeeds without tools around him. The problem with your whole #1 QB's are bad rap is no other position is worth any more for the #1. Now its fine (but unrealistic) to say every team should trade out but there is no reason to slam guys picked there because of a system they don't control.

As for Manning yes he is a better natural QB but you think having Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, Marcus Pollard, etc. to play with might have contributed?

Double Barrel
09-07-2006, 11:16 AM
Gary Kubiak won't sacrifice a season for Carr.

If Carr continues to make the same mistakes he made in the preseason, Sage Rosenfels will play. We're not there yet. We don't know how Carr is going to perform, and we don't know how patient Kubiak is going to be.

This says all I need to know. There is no need to wig out on our QB right now. Trust our head coach, his judgement, and most importantly, his will to win. Kubiak is not going to let any player - let alone Carr - bring the team down without doing something about it.

On another note, I really like what I hear from Moulds, both in attitude and commitment to helping this team. His leadership and communication skills are great, and I think he can help Carr as much as anyone right now. I'm so glad we picked this dude up. He will prove to be a very valuable asset, IMO.

DocBar
09-07-2006, 11:22 AM
I think all the Carr bashers are in for a treat this year. Kubiak has taken off the kids gloves and put DC at the grown-up's table so he can take his lumps for bad play like the rest of the team.
He'll make his 60th NFL start in Sunday's regular-season opener against the Philadelphia Eagles. For the first time, he'll be judged by his production and not his development. Gary Kubiak won't sacrifice a season for Carr.
I think that says alot about how long Carr's leash will be. If he doesn't perform, Sage will be the flavor of the month. I don't think Kubes is beyond benching Carr just to get his attention. Worked wonders for Bradshaw and Staubach. Benching a QB led to the Niners finding gold in Montana. Either way, it's win-win. Carr gets clipboard duty or plays well enough to stifle most of the criticism.
:homer:

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 11:27 AM
This says all I need to know. There is no need to wig out on our QB right now. Trust our head coach, his judgement, and most importantly, his will to win. Kubiak is not going to let any player - let alone Carr - bring the team down without doing something about it.

On another note, I really like what I hear from Moulds, both in attitude and commitment to helping this team. His leadership and communication skills are great, and I think he can help Carr as much as anyone right now. I'm so glad we picked this dude up. He will prove to be a very valuable asset, IMO.
Yes I was more impressed on hearing what the veteran Moulds is doing to create some partnership amongst these guys than hearing how Carr should fail and Rosenfels will be right there to lead us to.....

Vinny
09-07-2006, 11:30 AM
All I know is we are going on half a decade and our "franchise player" is coming off another disappointing pre-season. I don't see anything different in Carr's game than I did 4 years ago when I was vilified for saying I see long term problems with his game.....well, it's 4 years later and its the same ol same ol....can he just suddenly just 'turn it on' Sunday? I doubt it.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 11:49 AM
All I know is we are going on half a decade and our "franchise player" is coming off another disappointing pre-season. I don't see anything different in Carr's game than I did 4 years ago when I was vilified for saying I see long term problems with his game.....well, it's 4 years later and its the same ol same ol....can he just suddenly just 'turn it on' Sunday? I doubt it.
Man we should have kept Capers and Palmer and just got rid of Carr. If we had drafted Vince Young and just let Carr go we'd be sitting pretty right now. I think we should be like New Orleans and just give up on young talent like they did with Delhomme and....uh...oh...um.....nevermind.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 12:06 PM
Man we should have kept Capers and Palmer and just got rid of Carr. If we had drafted Vince Young and just let Carr go we'd be sitting pretty right now. I think we should be like New Orleans and just give up on young talent like they did with Delhomme and....uh...oh...um.....nevermind.yeah, keep a bad coach, bad coordinator on top of rolling out a bad QB in Carr. Brilliant plan. Talk to me in 5 years when VY has 60 starts.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 12:15 PM
yeah, keep a bad coach, bad coordinator on top of rolling out a bad QB in Carr. Brilliant plan. Talk to me in 5 years when VY has 60 starts.
Glad I didn't talk to you when Delhomme was with the Saints or Farve was with the Falcons or Steve Young was with the Bucs (see a pattern of bad teams here?) And from the pattern of Vince Young getting hurt so much in preseason, he won't get 60 starts in the NFL.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 12:16 PM
Glad I didn't talk to you when Delhomme was with the Saints or Farve was with the Falcons or Steve Young was with the Bucs (see a pattern of bad teams here?)

Exactly why you should not draft a QB in the first round in my opinion. Let them develop on someone else's dime.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 12:21 PM
Glad I didn't talk to you when Delhomme was with the Saints or Farve was with the Falcons or Steve Young was with the Bucs (see a pattern of bad teams here?) And from the pattern of Vince Young getting hurt so much in preseason, he won't get 60 starts in the NFL.lol, you have no clue do you? I was a HUGE Delhomme fan from the Saints days...and some of the old timers can attest to that. He has those intangibles that our workout warrior QB doesn't have. He is EXACTLY the kind of guy I like.

You want to judge VY on no regular season games but you put blinders on with Carr and 60 starts. Kind of inconsistent to me...or just a homer.

thunderkyss
09-07-2006, 12:24 PM
Well I guess Elway, Aikman, Manning have all had no value then since all needed teams built around them. Way, way overstated KT.

[disclaimer for the reading impaired--nothing in this post is comparing any talent or attribute of any QB whose name does not appear in this post with any QB whose name is mentioned]

Talent wise.... I think AJ is equivalent to what Michael Irvin was coming out of college. I'm not saying they are the same, but on a talent scale, I think they are in the same ballpark. Bradford & Gaffney would fall in the same "talent class" as any other reciever to play with the Cowboys during the "triplet" days.

Pitts, Brown, Hogdon, Hill......... Wade, Mckinney, Wiegart..... you can't say Capers didn't try. The draft is a crapshoot. I have no doubt that Capers had a harder time getting quality vets to come to Houston(& having to overpay), what did he have to offer?? People look at Capers, & I doubt they'd think he's a winner....... people look at Kubiak.... the way he talks and everything, and there is little doubt. But my point is you can't say they didn't try.

Runningbacks....... 2002, we took a QB in the first round. 2003, we took a Reciever. 2004 would have most likely been a RB if we weren't satisfied with DD, and we had good reason to be satisfied. So it made sense to go defense.

ON paper, I believe our team was/is as talented as almost any team in the league. A caught pass here, holding protection half a second longer, or hitting the whole a little harder there, and we wouldn't be having these discussions, & we'd have sent more players to the probowl.

Disclaimer: I'm only saying we are & have been as talented as the teams around the QBs you mentioned. I don't believe our talent level has been what's been holding us back.

real
09-07-2006, 12:26 PM
And from the pattern of Vince Young getting hurt so much in preseason, he won't get 60 starts in the NFL.

Where on earth do you get your sports news ?

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 12:29 PM
lol, you have no clue do you? I was a HUGE Delhomme fan from the Saints days...and some of the old timers can attest to that. He has those intangibles that our workout warrior QB doesn't have. He is EXACTLY the kind of guy I like.

You want to judge VY on no regular season games but you put blinders on with Carr and 60 starts. Kind of inconsistent to me...or just a homer.
That's funny, you called me a homer. I'm sure you knew that Farve and Young were going to do good under new systems too. :boxing: The only thing I know is that you don't judge a QB in a new system, with new coaches, and new faces at every position on offense -2. And is it so far off to expect Young to be injured so much with the type of play he brings to the NFL? Is this news to you? So who is clueless? You put way to much empasis on the QB position and your hatred for Carr is clearly biases towards him being unsuccessful just so you can reach the limelight with the "See, I told you so, nanny nanny nanny."

TK_Gamer
09-07-2006, 12:32 PM
I have to say this, maybe I'm the only one that will. I'm getting a bad vibe on a certain aspect of gary kubiak. It's called buddy buddy footbal. ok we seen all the running backs in preseason and they all did ok. but we saw everyone but morrency have a huge problem picking up the blitzing linebacker. so waht does kubiak do? he starts the worst of the 3 . ??? lundy is a rookie, he cant block. we have a QB we are trying to settle down and we put the worst blocking back in there to start? then we put the best run blocking tackle in there to start when the best pass blocker is playing LG ? I dont know about you guys but if I was trying to get Carr to fail, thats what I would do. I think kubiak is a smart guy. but you can coach a QB all you want on how to change. but if you throw him right back into the same situation you might as well just look for a trade and get it over with. my :twocents:

DocBar
09-07-2006, 12:34 PM
Talent wise.... I think AJ is equivalent to what Michael Irvin was coming out of college. I'm not saying they are the same, but on a talent scale, I think they are in the same ballpark. Bradford & Gaffney would fall in the same "talent class" as any other reciever to play with the Cowboys during the "triplet" days.

Pitts, Brown, Hogdon, Hill......... Wade, Mckinney, Wiegart..... you can't say Capers didn't try. The draft is a crapshoot. I have no doubt that Capers had a harder time getting quality vets to come to Houston(& having to overpay), what did he have to offer?? People look at Capers, & I doubt they'd think he's a winner....... people look at Kubiak.... the way he talks and everything, and there is little doubt. But my point is you can't say they didn't try.

Runningbacks....... 2002, we took a QB in the first round. 2003, we took a Reciever. 2004 would have most likely been a RB if we weren't satisfied with DD, and we had good reason to be satisfied. So it made sense to go defense.

ON paper, I believe our team was/is as talented as almost any team in the league. A caught pass here, holding protection half a second longer, or hitting the whole a little harder there, and we wouldn't be having these discussions, & we'd have sent more players to the probowl.

Disclaimer: I'm only saying we are & have been as talented as the teams around the QBs you mentioned. I don't believe our talent level has been what's been holding us back. I think we have been middle-of-the-road, talent-wise. As we saw from close games last year during preseason, we were woefully outcoached last year. For some reason, Capers lost his mojo and the team. A bad coach can waste all-world talent where a good coach can make up for a lack of talent by using schemes that fit his players strengths.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 12:36 PM
I have to say this, maybe I'm the only one that will. I'm getting a bad vibe on a certain aspect of gary kubiak. It's called buddy buddy footbal. ok we seen all the running backs in preseason and they all did ok. but we saw everyone but morrency have a huge problem picking up the blitzing linebacker. so waht does kubiak do? he starts the worst of the 3 . ??? lundy is a rookie, he cant block. we have a QB we are trying to settle down and we put the worst blocking back in there to start? then we put the best run blocking tackle in there to start when the best pass blocker is playing LG ? I dont know about you guys but if I was trying to get Carr to fail, thats what I would do. I think kubiak is a smart guy. but you can coach a QB all you want on how to change. but if you throw him right back into the same situation you might as well just look for a trade and get it over with. my :twocents:

I happen to think Kubiak is doing a great job and do not lose sight of that. He has not been burned yet by his judgements, but we will see as the season rolls along. What is most important to observe is how he rebounds from those decisions that do go awry. I have a feeling he will roll with those punches as well. My trepidation is that the one position that needed to be changed is still with us and unfortunately he touches the ball on every single snap.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 12:36 PM
That's funny, you called me a homer. I'm sure you knew that Farve and Young were going to do good under new systems too. :boxing: The only thing I know is that you don't judge a QB in a new system, with new coaches, and new faces at every position on offense -2. And is it so far off to expect Young to be injured so much with the type of play he brings to the NFL? Is this news to you? So who is clueless? You put way to much empasis on the QB position and your hatred for Carr is clearly biases towards him being unsuccessful just so you can reach the limelight with the "See, I told you so, nanny nanny nanny."
you give Carr 60 games but VY zero games? That's what homers do. Wear it proud, embrace it, but don't deny it if you use this kind of logic.

beerlover
09-07-2006, 12:42 PM
the Texans where victoms of not just themselves (bad coaching/player personel decisions) but bad timing as well. there are strong drafts (like last year) and exceptionally week drafts (2002) its not a stretch to think things would be much different today if you could flip the two, but that being said it is what it is we all have to live with it, adjust to it and find some resoultion that brings us happiness in one form or another :party:

TK_Gamer
09-07-2006, 12:42 PM
I happen to think Kubiak is doing a great job and do not lose sight of that. He has not been burned yet by his judgements, but we will see as the season rolls along. What is most important to observe is how he rebounds from those decisions that do go awry. I have a feeling he will roll with those punches as well. My trepidation is that the one position that needed to be changed is still with us and unfortunately he touches the ball on every single snap.

ok so ignore my whole post and attack Carr, good thinking

Houston_Fanatic
09-07-2006, 12:44 PM
When Joe Pendry took over as offensive coordinator early last season, he drilled Carr on delivering the ball more quickly.

Unfortunately, the pass protection was so bad that Carr was unloading the ball about the time his receivers left the line of scrimmage.

"It was hurry up, get the ball out of your hand, over and over," Carr said. "I can't explain to you how totally opposite it is now. Now, Gary tells me, 'David, slow down. If you've got a seven-step drop, make it 10 to 11 yards.' It's something I'm having to relearn."

I think this says a lot about the problems Carr has had in preseason and will continue to have until he is comfortable with the way Kubiak wants him to play.

CarrIsFine
09-07-2006, 12:45 PM
All I know is we are going on half a decade and our "franchise player" is coming off another disappointing pre-season. I don't see anything different in Carr's game than I did 4 years ago when I was vilified for saying I see long term problems with his game.....well, it's 4 years later and its the same ol same ol....can he just suddenly just 'turn it on' Sunday? I doubt it.

I'll admit Carr has regressed from the first Cowboys game. You've seen the replays of him stepping up in the pocket and delivering the beutiful deep ball. So the question is why? Maybe because the franchise failed in all areas to support him. Most notably in the areas of coaching and protection. We are learning now that Carr probably learned more at Fresno State than the last four years with the Texans and that the next year will be spent unlearning the bad habits the previous staff allowed to creep into his game.

For whatever reason you didn't like Carr from the beginning. All I know is we are going on half a decade and our "franchise" is finally getting it's act together. 4 years of bad habits don't change overnight. So yes, Carr will still flash bad habits, but hopefully as the season goes on they will show up less and less. Of course, if you never cared much for Carr, his current relearning process presents many opportunities to criticize and say I told you so.

The bottom line is the whole "franchise" has been terrible the last four years. Everyone knows a turnaround for the team won't be immediate, so why should we expect a 180 degree change from Carr in the preseason?

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 12:46 PM
ok so ignore my whole post and attack Carr, good thinking

Sorry you felt the need to skin the cat that way, but that was not my intention.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 12:47 PM
Where on earth do you get your sports news ?
I get NFL network, watch the games, training camp reports, video hightlights, etc. Then there is this thing called the internet.

TK_Gamer
09-07-2006, 12:52 PM
Sorry you felt the need to skin the cat that way, but that was not my intention.

you made no reference or comment to any of my valid points, only that you love kubiak and hate carr. I skin em as I see em, sorry.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 12:54 PM
For whatever reason you didn't like Carr from the beginning. All I know is we are going on half a decade and our "franchise" is finally getting it's act together. 4 years of bad habits don't change overnight. So yes, Carr will still flash bad habits, but hopefully as the season goes on they will show up less and less. Of course, if you never cared much for Carr, his current relearning process presents many opportunities to criticize and say I told you so.
No, that is wrong and you are making that up. I was totally in Carr's corner until......he played the game full time and started to display is talents to the NFL world. I was dogging Jaws for dissing Carr leading up to the opening game of 2002....I defended the pick to everyone. Go look it up at houstonprofootball.com if you don't believe me.

I don't like Carr's game for one reason, and one reason only...because it is bad. That's pretty much the long and short of it.

Carr has had a couple of good games....sure, but he sure fell a long way in week 2 after the Cowboy game when teams saw how to defend him based on the Cowboy game. He had some nice stats against some really awful defenses a couple of times in his career too...but so did Billy Volek and Joey Harrington. That's some pretty nice company there.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 12:55 PM
you made no reference or comment to any of my valid points, only that you love kubiak and hate carr. I skin em as I see em, sorry.

You mentione you are concerned and I implied that there are no results as of yet to measure his actions. I am sorry if that is confusing to you and will try to spell it out in a different manner so that you can comprehend.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 12:56 PM
you give Carr 60 games but VY zero games? That's what homers do. Wear it proud, embrace it, but don't deny it if you use this kind of logic.
I give Young plenty of games but he's a rookie so I give him more. I embrace what Kubiak has brought over and am knowledgable that it takes time for this type of grand transformation to take place. We are hardly going to see playoff performance from Carr this year. Your short lease on Carr is unwarranted with the admitted dibacle the former coaches did to this team and yet you hold Young on such a high pedestal because he gets the cloak of being a "rookie". What successful QB are you going to compare Young to to guage his success in his 1st year? You speak out of both sides of your face when you give tons of other players a lot of years to finally have a chance to succeed (see Weary) and get into a stable environment, yet for some reason David Carr needs to be replaced by the all mightly Vince Young. Stop pouting that we didn't pick Young and get behind Carr. Philadelphia fans are probably eating this up when they come on our boards and see such trashing of our QB BEFORE THE 1st GAME IN THE SYSTEM!!!!

Vinny
09-07-2006, 12:59 PM
I give Young plenty of games but he's a rookie so I give him more. I embrace what Kubiak has brought over and am knowledgable that it takes time for this type of grand transformation to take place. We are hardly going to see playoff performance from Carr this year. Your short lease on Carr is unwarranted with the admitted dibacle the former coaches did to this team and yet you hold Young on such a high pedestal because he gets the cloak of being a "rookie". I don't have a "short leash"...I've been consistent about him for 4 years now (unlike many, many folks here). I just don't think that Kubiak can take Brian Griese and make him John Elway...or Tommy Maddux and make him Jake Plummer. You are what you are.


The person who injected Vince Young into this thread was you pards....I never mentioned him and wasn't comparing the two....This is a weak tactic, but you are consistent.

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2006, 01:00 PM
:francis: Thats wonderful ... our QB is Ted Striker from Airplane .

I think that Carr does have the chance to start over with some young talent and some seasoned vets . Therefore he has no more excuses , he has either been ruined or he can play .

Lifes tough and anyone who's had anxiety issues can tell you its not fun but you get through it and most are not getting paid multi millions for their job .

chuckm
09-07-2006, 01:02 PM
Carr has had a couple of good games....sure, but he sure fell a long way in week 2 after the Cowboy game when teams saw how to defend him based on the Cowboy game.

I know I'll regret jumping into this but I'm curious about "when teams saw how to defend him based on the Cowboy game" ..... wasn't he sacked like 8 times in the San Diego game in game #2?

What did teams learn from the Dallas game? that his OL sucked?

:hides:

Vinny
09-07-2006, 01:03 PM
I know I'll regret jumping into this but I'm curious about "when teams saw how to defend him based on the Cowboy game" ..... wasn't he sacked like 8 times in the San Diego game?

What did teams learn from the Dallas game? that his OL sucked?

:hides:You don't know that teams watch film and defend players based on what they see? Teams just started laying two safetys over the top and he still has yet to beat a cover2

TexansFanatic
09-07-2006, 01:04 PM
Glad I didn't talk to you when Delhomme was with the Saints or Farve was with the Falcons or Steve Young was with the Bucs (see a pattern of bad teams here?) And from the pattern of Vince Young getting hurt so much in preseason, he won't get 60 starts in the NFL.

Umm....Favre never really played for the Falcons. We was traded after his first season and hardly saw the field....

chuckm
09-07-2006, 01:06 PM
You don't know that teams watch film and defend players based on what they see?


well I figured they did more than take all the little Polaroids (taken during the game) and push pin them up on a bulletin board ....


What I'm asking is what the Chargers could've possibly learned in the Cowboys game that would've allowed them to begin Carr's demise?

Could it have been that his OL stunk and to rush him like there's no tomorrow?

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 01:07 PM
I don't have a "short leash"...I've been consistent about him for 4 years now (unlike many, many folks here). I just don't think that Kubiak can take Brian Griese and make him John Elway...or Tommy Maddux and make him Jake Plummer. You are what you are.


The person who injected Vince Young into this thread was you pards....I never mentioned him and wasn't comparing the two....This is a weak tactic, but you are consistent.
Carr had a very respectable year before last years team implosion, we saw steady maturation in his play, he threw for 3500 yards and more TD's than Int's. He was well on his way to becoming a good QB. Now most posters on this board think that the previous coaching staff was responsible for last year, yet Carr is continually being bashed (especially when Young became the flavor of the week). I've watched Plummer in his bad years with Arizona and he was falling as well in his play but Kubiak and his system changed that. That is what I am basing a resurrection of Carr on. No some stat monger that thinks a player should put up Manning numbers immediately.

Runner
09-07-2006, 01:07 PM
I happen to think Kubiak is doing a great job and do not lose sight of that. He has not been burned yet by his judgements, but we will see as the season rolls along. What is most important to observe is how he rebounds from those decisions that do go awry. I have a feeling he will roll with those punches as well. My trepidation is that the one position that needed to be changed is still with us and unfortunately he touches the ball on every single snap.

I think Kubiak has done a great job too, but I also see the "buddy buddy" point. He seems to have some players on the team who's strongest selling point was "they played for Kubiak before". That could be a tie breaker for deciding between individual talents I guess, but I hate to see that put a lesser talent over the top in a decision.

That being said - I think we can wait a few games to see how that all turns out. Maybe Kubiak knows some things about certain players that we don't because of previous experience that we haven't seen.

If they don't work out maybe that will turn out to be one of Kubiak's weaknesses; we all have them.

hollywood_texan
09-07-2006, 01:09 PM
well I figured they did more than take all the little Polaroids (taken during the game) and push pin them up on a bulletin board ....


What I'm asking is what the Chargers could've possibly learned in the Cowboys game that would've allowed them to begin Carr's demise?

Could it have been that his OL stunk and to rush him like there's no tomorrow?

I went to both games, I have the distinction of attending both the Texans first win and first loss.

I think the issue you guys are talking is two fold, personnel and coaching. In 2002, the Cowboys personnel was a little a weak and Campo as the head coach, what else can you say.

Chargers had a better squad and better coaching that year than the Cowboys.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 01:09 PM
well I figured they did more than take all the little Polaroids (taken during the game) and push pin them up on a bulletin board ....


What I'm asking is what the Chargers could've possibly learned in the Cowboys game that would've allowed them to begin Carr's demise?

Could it have been that his OL stunk and to rush him like there's no tomorrow?
Nah, it was all on Carr. He was given plenty of time to scan the field. (I've never seen that described about our offensive line the whole time I've been here)

srstex
09-07-2006, 01:13 PM
4 years and there are some things that seem to be lost in time,
1) The Texans cut their sack total in half from year one to year two,
( Pitts was the starting LT both years )
Then Capers changed the scheme, to one he did not understand,
and we sank again.
2) The GM built a passing team, and Capers had a running offense, that
created the talent with-out a proper scheme.
3) Palmer is in Dallas now. ( or at least the last time I checked )
4) The Texans D set the NFL mark for most consecutive quaters with out
giving up a TD, (14?) then cut Sharper and Glen ???
5) The draft is over there are do overs, Williams was Kubiaks pick and we
will be watching him for some time.
6) No job is secure in the NFL, so if Carr is benched, so be it, Kubiak/Sherman
have a great scheme.

Sunday Sunday Sunday Reliant Energy Stadium BE THERE

DocBar
09-07-2006, 01:20 PM
I think Kubiak has done a great job too, but I also see the "buddy buddy" point. He seems to have some players on the team who's strongest selling point was "they played for Kubiak before". That could be a tie breaker for deciding between individual talents I guess, but I hate to see that put a lesser talent over the top in a decision.

That being said - I think we can wait a few games to see how that all turns out. Maybe Kubiak knows some things about certain players that we don't because of previous experience that we haven't seen.

If they don't work out maybe that will turn out to be one of Kubiak's weaknesses; we all have them.
It's much easier to take a chance or a pass on a known quantity than an unknown. I can understand Kubes' bias towards players he's been around before. He has a better idea of strengths and weaknesses and what they bring to the table, overall. I think it's a passing thing as he gets his feet under him and has a few more drafts to get his type of players on board.

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 01:22 PM
Bradford & Gaffney would fall in the same "talent class" as any other reciever to play with the Cowboys during the "triplet" days.

Disclaimer: I'm only saying we are & have been as talented as the teams around the QBs you mentioned. I don't believe our talent level has been what's been holding us back.

You have to be freakin' kidding. The Cowboys had one of the greatest OL's ever with at least one going to the hall of fame someday. Jay Novacek=Billy Miller, yeah in fantasy land. Moose Johnston, Alvin Harper, etc. Heck they fielded almost half the pro-bowl in 1993.

The roster turnover this year (and subsequent inability of many of the players now departed to get jobs) should be a hint that Kubiak violently disagrees about the talent level and the rest of the NFL as well.

Runner
09-07-2006, 01:25 PM
It's much easier to take a chance or a pass on a known quantity than an unknown. I can understand Kubes' bias towards players he's been around before. He has a better idea of strengths and weaknesses and what they bring to the table, overall. I think it's a passing thing as he gets his feet under him and has a few more drafts to get his type of players on board.

I hope his approach with known players is either:

a) successful in its own right or
b) "a passing thing" as you say.

Our last head coach's greatest problem was his "buddy buddy" loyalty to Pendry and Fangio. I don't want to hear the same song, different verse.

Hulk75
09-07-2006, 01:26 PM
I guess it largely depends on how you define "a chance to succeed." I think that most people would concur that giving the #1 player in the draft the starting position would the be the only "chance" they need. If they need more than that what was their real value as a #1?
That is probably the most stupidest thing I have ever read.

wolf123
09-07-2006, 01:33 PM
I think Kubiak has done a great job too, but I also see the "buddy buddy" point. He seems to have some players on the team who's strongest selling point was "they played for Kubiak before". That could be a tie breaker for deciding between individual talents I guess, but I hate to see that put a lesser talent over the top in a decision.

That being said - I think we can wait a few games to see how that all turns out. Maybe Kubiak knows some things about certain players that we don't because of previous experience that we haven't seen.

If they don't work out maybe that will turn out to be one of Kubiak's weaknesses; we all have them.

Not saying that Kubiak does not have a weakness, but this "buddy buddy" point seems to be a little exagerated. For one, 0 players that have played for him before that he "brought" over are starting game 1. He is showing that he will start whomever he believes is ready (see Spencer, Lundy, Sanders, and Daniels) I'm sure Weary is doing well, but is starting because of lingering injury recovery of McKinney. Kubiak has weaknesses, but I don't think the "buddy buddy" problem has jumped into the mix yet. JMHO

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 01:38 PM
You don't know that teams watch film and defend players based on what they see? Teams just started laying two safetys over the top and he still has yet to beat a cover2

That's a true statement over time but it is a reach as an explanation for the Chargers game. Find me an example of a winning QB sacked 9 times in one game. The Texans got down quickly (yes partially the fault of a Carr INT) 14 pts and then it was a stampede.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 01:40 PM
That's a true statement over time but it is a reach as an explanation for the Chargers game. Find me an example of a winning QB sacked 9 times in one game.The cowboys didn't help up top and figured he wasn't going to beat them deep...the Chargers and most teams did after that debacle. I think Carr was as bad as the line when it came to sacks....he sacked himself over and over. That's well documented.

DocBar
09-07-2006, 01:40 PM
I hope his approach with known players is either:

a) successful in its own right or
b) "a passing thing" as you say.

Our last head coach's greatest problem was his "buddy buddy" loyalty to Pendry and Fangio. I don't want to heart the same song, different verse.
Me too. I don't think he's so much "buddy-buddy" as wanting to get some people he's familiar with and that are familiar with his sytem in place to provide some veteran leadership in different areas of the team. I realy feel that winning is #1 with this guy( Like it is with Mike Shannahan) and if you don't produce on the field or on the staff, you won't be on his team long. Winners surround themselves with winners. Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing repeatedly while expecting different results.

real
09-07-2006, 01:42 PM
Pitts, Brown, Hogdon, Hill......... Wade, Mckinney, Wiegart..... you can't say Capers didn't try. The draft is a crapshoot. I have no doubt that Capers had a harder time getting quality vets to come to Houston(& having to overpay), what did he have to offer?? People look at Capers, & I doubt they'd think he's a winner....... people look at Kubiak.... the way he talks and everything, and there is little doubt. But my point is you can't say they didn't try.

Part of having a good draft is knowing how to evaluate talent...I think saying the draft is "a crap shoot" is overstated...If it were that much of a crapshoot, why spend hours evaluating talent, watching film, talking to players ??? I understand that all of your picks aren't going to be hit...but when you have more bust than anything else, you are doing something wrong...



ON paper, I believe our team was/is as talented as almost any team in the league. A caught pass here, holding protection half a second longer, or hitting the whole a little harder there, and we wouldn't be having these discussions, & we'd have sent more players to the probowl.

Forgive my ignorance but when you say on paper are you reffering to stats ? couldn't be...I'm guessing it's just a gut feeling which I can respect...But I think across the board the Texans are below the leauge average as far as talent is concerned...and since their is no real judge for talent except ones own perception...I will say "star potential"...I think position for position except WR and maybe DL we have mediocre to below average players...IMO we only have 4 players with big time "star potential"...D-Rob, Mario,AJ and DeMeco...These are the four players on our team that I think are going to be pro-bowl regulars... We have many other players that are certainly capable but I just don't look at the Texans roster and think we are loaded with talent...

*please don't respond saying D.Carr should be the fifth player with "star potential"....I don't care to discuss that....:ok:

jmerog
09-07-2006, 01:42 PM
Exactly why you should not draft a QB in the first round in my opinion. Let them develop on someone else's dime.

interesting angle. i partially agree but i think there are times that it makes a lot of sense to use the draft. I think starting a franchise is often one of those times-unless a known quality veteran is on the market. I like your angle from a cap/money standpoint though. Economical and savy.

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 01:44 PM
I think Kubiak has done a great job too, but I also see the "buddy buddy" point. He seems to have some players on the team who's strongest selling point was "they played for Kubiak before". That could be a tie breaker for deciding between individual talents I guess, but I hate to see that put a lesser talent over the top in a decision.

Who starting falls into that category? The biggest decisions on O are Spencer a draft pick even over veteran Salaam who has played for him and Lundy over Dayne.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 01:45 PM
That is probably the most stupidest thing I have ever read.

Yes it is if you are not in business. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) and Return on Investment (ROI) are what drive spending at the Corporate Officer level. When the NFL went to a salary cap teams started looking at acquisitions, tenure and development a little bit differently.

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 01:48 PM
The cowboys didn't help up top and figured he wasn't going to beat them deep...the Chargers and most teams did after that debacle. I think Carr was as bad as the line when it came to sacks....he sacked himself over and over. That's well documented.

None of the sacks in the San Diego game were running out of bounds sacks. Could he have avoided some?--sure maybe. JMO but it is overstated to say San Diego had figured Carr out in that game. Like HT said the talent was better and so was the coaching.

Hulk75
09-07-2006, 01:52 PM
The cowboys didn't help up top and figured he wasn't going to beat them deep...the Chargers and most teams did after that debacle. I think Carr was as bad as the line when it came to sacks....he sacked himself over and over. That's well documented.
Over and Over.............really.

Well I just happened to watch the Titans highlight film from last year, I believe I saw 5 sacks were OUR qb had maybe 1 second to get the ball off, I mean as soon as he snapped the ball he had a guy in his face.

I saw a play last year against the Titans were he got the snap and while he was leaning back to hand the ball off Albert Haynsworth got a hand on his jersey and almost pulled him down, thats just stupid.

DocBar
09-07-2006, 01:52 PM
Exactly why you should not draft a QB in the first round in my opinion. Let them develop on someone else's dime.
Isn't that about as risky as drafting one? If a player has developed into a quality player, most teams try to lock them up. If he's available, he's probably not panned out very well, very expensive, or both.

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 01:52 PM
Yes it is if you are not in business. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) and Return on Investment (ROI) are what drive spending at the Corporate Officer level. When the NFL went to a salary cap teams started looking at acquisitions, tenure and development a little bit differently.

That's all well and good but you haven't responded to the problem of what to do with the #1 if you have it. Trade down is sometimes an option and sometimes it is not. At #1--QB, DE, WR, LT and CB are about the only positions which make sense cap wise. In the 2002 draft there were 2 players in those positions who have proven to be worth the #1 draft pick--Julius Peppers and Dwight Freeney.

TexanFanInCC
09-07-2006, 01:53 PM
"Wide receiver Eric Moulds is organizing weekly lunches with Carr and Johnson.

"It's an opportunity to know exactly what your quarterback is thinking," Moulds said. "What are your checks in certain situations? I think David realizes he has to slow down and go through his read progression. Once David learns that, he'll manage the game a lot better.""

i thought this was an interesting piece in that article. i like the little get togethers. apparently it worked for vince young last season at texas when he got together with the recievers and put in extra time that ultimately paid off. lets hope the guys can do this as well. i like how guys like moulds are taking the responsibility to help carr's confidence.

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2006, 01:53 PM
Not saying that Kubiak does not have a weakness, but this "buddy buddy" point seems to be a little exagerated. For one, 0 players that have played for him before that he "brought" over are starting game 1. He is showing that he will start whomever he believes is ready (see Spencer, Lundy, Sanders, and Daniels) I'm sure Weary is doing well, but is starting because of lingering injury recovery of McKinney. Kubiak has weaknesses, but I don't think the "buddy buddy" problem has jumped into the mix yet. JMHO

Parcells knows what type of player it takes to succeed . He likes to surround himself with his players to show the young guys the ropes . If Kubiak can accomplish the same things more power to him .

To all the people worried about Wand , ask yourself who picked him up .

Runner
09-07-2006, 01:53 PM
Who starting falls into that category? The biggest decisions on O are Spencer a draft pick even over veteran Salaam who has played for him and Lundy over Dayne.

I think it hurts our depth more than the starting line-up. You know me - I think Wand was better than Salaam. I don't get the Dayne pick-up at all. Things like that.

I thought we picked up some other depth players from waivers that had been associated with him before; it seems I read that when people commented on them. If I'm wrong about any others, maybe I'm seeing ghosts.

I don't know if he wants to play "his" rookies over players already with the Texans so I'll leave that out. Daniels over Putzier certainly wouldn't fit into that category.

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 01:55 PM
Isn't that about as risky as drafting one? If a player has developed into a quality player, most teams try to lock them up. If he's available, he's probably not panned out very well, very expensive, or both.

Exactly--successful people will be locked up. At best you are looking for gambles such as Plummer and Brees who are still on very expensive contracts. This plan is one for continual turnover as the AJ Feely's and Quincy Carter's of the NFL pass thru looking for a Jake Delhomme.

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2006, 01:56 PM
Over and Over.............really.

Well I just happened to watch the Titans highlight film from last year, I believe I saw 5 sacks were OUR qb had maybe 1 second to get the ball off, I mean as soon as he snapped the ball he had a guy in his face.

I saw a play last year against the Titans were he got the snap and while he was leaning back to hand the ball off Albert Haynsworth got a hand on his jersey and almost pulled him down, thats just stupid.
So you say its .5% Carr's fault and 99.5% everyone else's ?

Hulk75
09-07-2006, 01:57 PM
Yes it is if you are not in business. Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) and Return on Investment (ROI) are what drive spending at the Corporate Officer level. When the NFL went to a salary cap teams started looking at acquisitions, tenure and development a little bit differently.
Why is it we have not gotten what we paid for? Why is that?

Hulk75
09-07-2006, 01:58 PM
So you say its .5% Carr's fault and 99.5% everyone else's ?
Yea thats what I am saying.:yawn:

Runner
09-07-2006, 01:58 PM
Parcells knows what type of player it takes to succeed . He likes to surround himself with his players to show the young guys the ropes . If Kubiak can accomplish the same things more power to him .

To all the people worried about Wand , ask yourself who picked him up .

What's your Wand point?

So if somebody picks him up later this week or next would that indicate to you it was a mistake to cut him?

I think the decision to cut Wand and who picks him up when are two unrelated things.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 01:59 PM
The cowboys didn't help up top and figured he wasn't going to beat them deep...the Chargers and most teams did after that debacle. I think Carr was as bad as the line when it came to sacks....he sacked himself over and over. That's well documented.
Wow, I still can't get over how you summed up our QB only after the 2nd game of a franchise, a FRANCHISE! Talk about no clue. I can't believe you are even going there with the talent level we've had here the past few years. Kubiak pretty much wipes out the previous regimes players because they sucked and backs the ability of Carr, I'm fine with that.

Hulk75
09-07-2006, 02:01 PM
Wow, I still can't get over how you summed up our QB only after the 2nd game of a franchise, a FRANCHISE! Talk about no clue. I can't believe you are even going there with the talent level we've had here the past few years. Kubiak pretty much wipes out the previous regimes players because they sucked and backs the ability of Carr, I'm fine with that.
Finally some reason, a person that knows what they are talking about.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 02:02 PM
Wow, I still can't get over how you summed up our QB only after the 2nd game of a franchise, a FRANCHISE! Talk about no clue. I can't believe you are even going there with the talent level we've had here the past few years. Kubiak pretty much wipes out the previous regimes players because they sucked and backs the ability of Carr, I'm fine with that.I didn't. This is just a strawman argument. Cheap mb tactics are your specialty it seems.

Porky
09-07-2006, 02:02 PM
Let's face it, Carr is going to break the alltime sack record at his current pace, and all his sacks are against one QB. I have been a Carr defender in the past, but over the last year, I can no longer keep defending the guy. I see what I see, based on watching QB play for parts of 4 decades. You can smear lipstick all over a pig and name it Jenna Jamison, but in the end, it's still just going to oink. At this point, I am really beginning to doubt that Carr can be resureected. I am willing to give him to the bye week to show that he can be a real NFL QB, but I am not holding my breath waiting either. If he looks as bad in the first 4 weeks as the pre-season, I for one, will be calling for a change. As Justice said, in year 5, it's all about production, so I want to see David earn that extravagant bonus. Here's hoping he does. :francis:

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2006, 02:03 PM
Yea thats what I am saying.:yawn:
I figured if we can get a percentage , then it becomes clear for the blame barometer . I'll go 15% Carr and 85% everyone else . Mainly Casserly ,Capers , and Pendry . .

hollywood_texan
09-07-2006, 02:06 PM
"Wide receiver Eric Moulds is organizing weekly lunches with Carr and Johnson.

"It's an opportunity to know exactly what your quarterback is thinking," Moulds said. "What are your checks in certain situations? I think David realizes he has to slow down and go through his read progression. Once David learns that, he'll manage the game a lot better.""

i thought this was an interesting piece in that article. i like the little get togethers. apparently it worked for vince young last season at texas when he got together with the recievers and put in extra time that ultimately paid off. lets hope the guys can do this as well. i like how guys like moulds are taking the responsibility to help carr's confidence.

I think the issue though is that Moulds organized this. He just got to the Texans. You would have thought AJ or Carr would have organized this type of thing.

Carr just doesn't seem proactive from what I have seen from the field and read about his locker room presence. I am far from seeing everything though...

As for Vince, he was the leader of the Longhorns last year and took it upon himself without any one asking him, as I understand it. Spring drills before the Championship season were optional, Vince wrote on the board, "If you want to beat Ohio State, practice with me at this time." Everyone showed up. Right now, Vince isn't starting but from what I have read, the Titans is his team.

Runner
09-07-2006, 02:09 PM
I think the issue though is that Moulds organized this. He just got to the Texans. You would have thought AJ or Carr would have organized this type of thing.


That is an important issue - but I don't know if this type of stuff was done last year. I think most people will assume no. I doubt it happened much, but that's a guess.

Good for Moulds though. Good for Moulds.

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 02:10 PM
You can smear lipstick all over a pig and name it Jenna Jamison, but in the end, it's still just going to oink.

Funny, Nina Hartley used to walk her pig around the Berkeley campus--I guess you got a choice.

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 02:14 PM
I think the issue though is that Moulds organized this. He just got to the Texans. You would have thought AJ or Carr would have organized this type of thing.

Carr just doesn't seem proactive from what I have seen from the field and read about his locker room presence. I am far from seeing everything though...

There have been a few reports about Carr calling AJ before the draft, having him down to stay with him immediately afterwards and holding some extra workout sessions with him during the off-seasons. No doubt Carr has not frequently been been a visible motivator on the sideline hence the Texans talking to him about it. You can see he is making efforts to do that this year.

Right now, Vince isn't starting but from what I have read, the Titans is his team.

Vince is a natural leader--he evidently took over a team huddle chant the other day when normally that is done by a vet.

HOU-TEX
09-07-2006, 02:26 PM
There have been a few reports about Carr calling AJ before the draft, having him down to stay with him immediately afterwards and holding some extra workout sessions with him during the off-seasons. No doubt Carr has not frequently been been a visible motivator on the sideline hence the Texans talking to him about it. You can see he is making efforts to do that this year.


At times I saw him trying to motivate the team during the preseason games. IMO, to truely be a leader of a team, you must be able to lead by example first. Until he does that, the offense will remain without leadership. That's why I think D-Ryans is eventually going to be an outstanding leader. :twocents:

Double Barrel
09-07-2006, 02:58 PM
Teams just started laying two safetys over the top and he still has yet to beat a cover2

But he's only had 60 games. jeesh, some folks are soooo impatient. :shades: shall we talk after 120 games?

Marcus
09-07-2006, 03:09 PM
But he's only had 60 games. jeesh, some folks are soooo impatient. :shades: shall we talk after 120 games?

God! The fans are going to get so ugly this Sunday at Reliant, it won't even be funny.

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2006, 03:23 PM
God! The fans are going to get so ugly this Sunday at Reliant, it won't even be funny.
We fans are not the sharpest knives in the drawer . It could get ugly in the first half and Carr gets booed unmercifully . In the second half he gets hot and throws two long bombs and becomes a hero . Balls in his court .

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 03:38 PM
It's just crazy. These short leash fans are going to make it long season. Kubiak is supposed to waive his magic wand and we turn this team into a 13-3 record. I can't count how many QB's have struggled in their early years and then gone on to become very good Qb's, and almost all of them didn't have the expansion team to deal with. With Kubiak on board we are now starting to see a real team being placed on the field with new players at almost all of the positions on this team and yet. I laugh at this because some of the veteran posters (Vinny) were calling out the folks last year who pointed out that this team was not very good and the offseason changes were a complete dibacle, right before the first game. The "chicken littles" as we were called, knew that this team was in a deep downward spiral at the time and we ranted and raved about the direction of the team. Come to find out, the "chicken littles" were dead on. No we have come full circle where we have fired the whole coaching staff, hired a fresh face in a successful program, ditched the architect of this team, drafted decent players, brought in pro-bowl caliber free agents, and installed offensive and defensive schemes that have been successful. Now who is the chicken little? Funny as hell. :chicken:

CarrIsFine
09-07-2006, 03:40 PM
No, that is wrong and you are making that up. I was totally in Carr's corner until......he played the game full time and started to display is talents to the NFL world. I was dogging Jaws for dissing Carr leading up to the opening game of 2002....I defended the pick to everyone. Go look it up at houstonprofootball.com if you don't believe me.

I don't like Carr's game for one reason, and one reason only...because it is bad. That's pretty much the long and short of it.

My bad, you haven't like Carr since Week 2 of 2002. My point is that at least give him this year. If he doesn't show improvement after a year with Kubiak, then fine, he doesn't have what it takes. How come you don't pick apart any defensive players like you do Carr? The defense was dead last in the league last year, there has to be some players with "bad game" on the defensive side off the ball. :)

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 03:41 PM
How come you don't pick apart any defensive players like you do Carr? The defense was dead last in the league last year, there has to be some players with "bad game" on the defensive side off the ball. :)

...(crickets chirping)...........(crickets chirping)........

eriadoc
09-07-2006, 03:44 PM
Personally, I fall into the camp stating the opinion that Carr has had a very bad set of circumstances. In the end, however, all that matters is whether he can be resurrected. If he can't, draft his replacement next year and move on.

As for the financial ramifications, I don't put any of that on Carr, sorry. He has to play well whether he makes $8 million or $50 a game. His performance is what it is. The team around him influences how well he'll do. As for the business part of it, that falls squarely on the GM, capologists, and ultimately Bob McNair. If Carr isn't worth whatever we're paying, don't pay it. I'm not going to bash Carr's game because he's making $8 million this year - I'll bash because he has happy feet, has no poise, and has no pocket presence. All professional athletes make too much money as it is and the only way any of it matters is if you start measuring ROI and TOC, at which point, you're squarely analyzing the performance of the front office, not the QB.

real
09-07-2006, 03:44 PM
My bad, you haven't like Carr since Week 2 of 2002. My point is that at least give him this year. If he doesn't show improvement after a year with Kubiak, then fine, he doesn't have what it takes. How come you don't pick apart any defensive players like you do Carr? The defense was dead last in the league last year, there has to be some players with "bad game" on the defensive side off the ball. :)

Maybe they don't matter as much....oh and most of our starters on defense are gone or not starting anymore...just a thought...

Vinny
09-07-2006, 03:45 PM
I've picked apart a ton of defenders...Robaire Smith...Foreman, and Coleman come to mind off the top of my head. This straw man stuff is just too much....give it up.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 03:48 PM
My bad, you haven't like Carr since Week 2 of 2002. My point is that at least give him this year. If he doesn't show improvement after a year with Kubiak, then fine, he doesn't have what it takes. How come you don't pick apart any defensive players like you do Carr? The defense was dead last in the league last year, there has to be some players with "bad game" on the defensive side off the ball. :)
no, go to houstonprofootball.com and search "Rob Johnson, David Carr and Vinny". That thread pointing out Carr's long term problems was really around the time I saw enough of him to be down on his long term potential. That was in 2003 sometime. You can also find me defending Carr when Jaws lit him up on ESPN before the 2002 season started if you look.

All the crap you guys are dishing is pure straw man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man) tripe.

thunderkyss
09-07-2006, 03:53 PM
I've picked apart a ton of defenders...Robaire Smith...Foreman, and Coleman come to mind off the top of my head. This straw man stuff is just too much....give it up.

For some reason, you can pick apart any player on this team, except one. It's not made into a big deal, if you criticize a defensive player, or an offensive linemen. WE all read it, put in our two, and move on.

But talk about one particualar disappointment, based on his play, and you get a 20 page war......... & they say they don't want to talk about it.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 03:59 PM
For some reason, you can pick apart any player on this team, except one. It's not made into a big deal, if you criticize a defensive player, or an offensive linemen. WE all read it, put in our two, and move on.

But talk about one particualar disappointment, based on his play, and you get a 20 page war......... & they say they don't want to talk about it.
I haven't seen Dunta's thread too much around here and he stunk last year. Go count how many Carr hatred threads have been around here and add up all the other players hatred threads and I still don't think they will be equal. Carr without a doubt has a couple of issues he needs to resolve, but to blast him right before our first game in a brand new scheme with brand new coaches and players??? What a bunch of chicken littles. The sky is falling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sky_is_Falling)

Vinny
09-07-2006, 04:07 PM
I haven't seen Dunta's thread too much around here and he stunk last year. Go count how many Carr hatred threads have been around here and add up all the other players hatred threads and I still don't think they will be equal. Carr without a doubt has a couple of issues he needs to resolve, but to blast him right before our first game in a brand new scheme with brand new coaches and players??? What a bunch of chicken littles. The sky is falling. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sky_is_Falling)
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=209070&postcount=14

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 04:10 PM
http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showpost.php?p=209070&postcount=14
Wow, you found one.....over 9 months ago. I guess you had to dig hard because the way the defense played last year they should be just as hot a topic as all the Carr threads we've seen this month.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 04:12 PM
Wow, you found one.....over 9 months ago. I guess you had to dig hard because the way the defense played last year they should be just as hot a topic as all the Carr threads we've seen this month.You said I don't dog defenders...then you mention Dunta. I bring you an example where I clearly bag on his game there. It's just that we don't have a billion Dunta apologists telling me that I'm insane for saying that. I don't need to counter my own argument there nor do I feel he has huge holes in his game (like I do Carr).

Maddict5
09-07-2006, 04:15 PM
I guess it largely depends on how you define "a chance to succeed." I think that most people would concur that giving the #1 player in the draft the starting position would the be the only "chance" they need. If they need more than that what was their real value as a #1?

hmmm....look at manning, palmer and nearly any other top qb....what do they have in common?? loads of quality around them.....thats why i believe brady is one of the best qbs ever as he doesnt have as much quality as the other qbs but has comparable success on offence....

Vinny
09-07-2006, 04:17 PM
hmmm....look at manning, palmer and nearly any other top qb....what do they have in common?? loads of quality around them.....thats why i believe brady is one of the best qbs ever as he doesnt have as much quality as the other qbs but has comparable success on offence....Manning and Palmer both went to bad teams. Once they were drafted and started to make plays...their teams got better. Magic I think.

GP
09-07-2006, 04:18 PM
Guess what?!

Another....David.......Carr...........thread...... ...

http://www.office-humour.com/includes/images/items/2005/07/3271.gif

hollywood_texan
09-07-2006, 04:19 PM
I think picking on Dunta is not necessarily appropriate when comparing to Carr. Even a good, or even a great corner, needs the front seven to provide a pass rush for him to do his job effectively. The pass rush was non existent last year. You can't expect a CB to cover a guy forever.

As for the QB position, generally that guy has to make everybody around him better.

You really can't compare the CB and QB positions.

I look at the CB position like a pitcher in baseball. A pitcher needs help on defense and he needs the offense to score runs for him to get a W. A CB really isn't that much different in that respect.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 04:22 PM
You said I don't dog defenders...then you mention Dunta. I bring you an example where I clearly bag on his game there. It's just that we don't have a billion Dunta apologists telling me that I'm insane for saying that. I don't need to counter my own argument there nor do I feel he has huge holes in his game (like I do Carr).
No, I just infered that defensive players don't get nearly the knock on them as Carr has over the past few months considering their unit was just as horrible as his. Simple really, follow along. And bringing in 1 example of of 1 game from a comment you made over 9 months ago hardly even puts a spat on his failures during the season and the attention the defense deserves on this board in being bashed.

tsip
09-07-2006, 04:24 PM
I'll admit Carr has regressed from the first Cowboys game. You've seen the replays of him stepping up in the pocket and delivering the beutiful deep ball. So the question is why? Maybe because the franchise failed in all areas to support him. Most notably in the areas of coaching and protection. We are learning now that Carr probably learned more at Fresno State than the last four years with the Texans and that the next year will be spent unlearning the bad habits the previous staff allowed to creep into his game.

For whatever reason you didn't like Carr from the beginning. All I know is we are going on half a decade and our "franchise" is finally getting it's act together. 4 years of bad habits don't change overnight. So yes, Carr will still flash bad habits, but hopefully as the season goes on they will show up less and less. Of course, if you never cared much for Carr, his current relearning process presents many opportunities to criticize and say I told you so.

The bottom line is the whole "franchise" has been terrible the last four years. Everyone knows a turnaround for the team won't be immediate, so why should we expect a 180 degree change from Carr in the preseason?

Your'e missing an important point here--every player on this team was affected by Caper's and company but only Carr is being 'put on a pedestal ' to succeed, regardless of whether he shows progress or not. That 'rubs' some people the wrong way and is 'intensified' by some of the talk from Kubiak's camp about 'those who play, stay-those that don't, it's the highway.'

Eventually, there is going to be a 'reckoning' with this now 5 yr old situation, and there could be some 'intense' moments. A lot has been placed on Carr succeeding, regardless of the 'cost' if he fails. For more reasons than one, let's hope that Johnny Unitas inspires Carr in his dreams Sat nite.:cowboy1:

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 04:26 PM
Manning and Palmer both went to bad teams. Once they were drafted and started to make plays...their teams got better. Magic I think.
Look at the jump Manning took when Mora was fired and Dungy was inserted. Coaching change, and Palmer started on an established team that was 8-8 the season before. Their teams got better when talent was inserted around them.
I guess talent doesn't matter to QB's.

Marcus
09-07-2006, 04:28 PM
Guess what?!

Another....David.......Carr...........thread...... ...

I've got a news flash for you gpshafer. Now, you'd better sit down before I give you this news because it might be real tough for you to handle. Are you ready? No? We'll here it is anyway.....

As long as David Carr is giving bad football play, there are going to be more David Carr threads created than anything else. That's just the way it is.

Nobody will want to talk about him anymore if he starts playing good football. Again, that's just the way it is with message boards, so get used to it.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 04:36 PM
hmmm....look at manning, palmer and nearly any other top qb....what do they have in common?? loads of quality around them.....thats why i believe brady is one of the best qbs ever as he doesnt have as much quality as the other qbs but has comparable success on offence....

That maybe the strongest retort I have seen ever on this board. Thank you for bringing your mastery to the age old question, "What came first, Carr or poor Quarterbacking?"

humbleone
09-07-2006, 04:37 PM
We have some great posters on this MB...even those whose opinion I personally disagree with like Vinny regarding DC, I respect and acknowledge that in the end, theirs may actually be proven correct.

What I am simply betting on is this regarding DC... why would Kubiak bet on Carr if it was a bad bet? Of course, he could be wrong about DC, but I for one believe that the smart money is on Kubiak being right about this guy and that Kubes can coach him up to calm down, slow down, go through his progressions and play the way he apparently practices.

This week will be a huge test for DC... but my money is on that he will play well. :shades:

cbnjwill
09-07-2006, 04:39 PM
just want to get your guys thoughts.... will we see sage play against the eagles on sunday

Porky
09-07-2006, 04:40 PM
No, I just infered that defensive players don't get nearly the knock on them as Carr has over the past few months considering their unit was just as horrible as his. Simple really, follow along. And bringing in 1 example of of 1 game from a comment you made over 9 months ago hardly even puts a spat on his failures during the season and the attention the defense deserves on this board in being bashed.

Apples and oranges in many ways. When Dunta is the #1 overall pick, and plays like dogmeat for 4 years, and is the QB, get back to me. :violin

Vinny
09-07-2006, 04:43 PM
just want to get your guys thoughts.... will we see sage play against the eagles on sunday
um, no.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 04:44 PM
just want to get your guys thoughts.... will we see sage play against the eagles on sunday

Only after the Eagles are on the rotisserie.

Double Barrel
09-07-2006, 04:49 PM
For some reason, you can pick apart any player on this team, except one. It's not made into a big deal, if you criticize a defensive player, or an offensive linemen. WE all read it, put in our two, and move on.

But talk about one particualar disappointment, based on his play, and you get a 20 page war......... & they say they don't want to talk about it.

No other player touches the ball EVERY play when his squad is on the field (well, except the center, of course). Good or bad, right or wrong, the QB is going to take the glory or the heat, depending on his play and the team's record.

Carr :shoot: threads :francis: are :cowboy1: funny.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 04:50 PM
Apples and oranges in many ways. When Dunta is the #1 overall pick, and plays like dogmeat for 4 years, and is the QB, get back to me. :violinI wouldn't consider Carrs 2004 dog meat, he actually was progressing up until last year. I could see your point if he wasn't making steady progress, but after how horrible most players on this team were and all the offseason moves this year to get rid of players, chalk last year up to bafooness on the management part. Dunta is just an example of several players on the defense that played well under par, and he gets a new pass for this year as well. that is apples to apples.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 04:51 PM
No other player touches the ball EVERY play when his squad is on the field (well, except the center, of course). Good or bad, right or wrong, the QB is going to take the glory or the heat, depending on his play and the team's record.

Carr :shoot: threads :francis: are :cowboy1: funny.
Sorry, but the QB touches the ball HALF of the plays, the opposing team's QB touches the other half and torched our defense steadily last year. Carr hands off half the time so really, is that counted as "touches"?

GP
09-07-2006, 04:59 PM
I've got a news flash for you gpshafer. Now, you'd better sit down before I give you this news because it might be real tough for you to handle. Are you ready? No? We'll here it is anyway.....

As long as David Carr is giving bad football play, there are going to be more David Carr threads created than anything else. That's just the way it is.

Nobody will want to talk about him anymore if he starts playing good football. Again, that's just the way it is with message boards, so get used to it.

Oh, I'm used to it.

You can get used to a lot of things:

Crabs

Hemohroids

Boils on your face and hands

Poor bladder control

An overactive sphincter


I am used to it, but I'd rather see some people talk about something else. Is that too much to ask? Is it too hard to just have ONE David Carr thread as a sticky, and we all mingle in that area?

Heck, just create an entire David Carr forum, for that matter.

But nope, we gotta' have a new David Carr thread every five minutes about what someone said, about what he said, about some new stat we found on David, etc.

Getting pretty old, IMO.

I didn't know David Carr induced short-term memory loss among all the posters here. I mean, excuse me for attacking everyone's personal intellect on a mass communicative level here, but at some point can we just let it go for one day. One day? ONE. Nope. Someone sees the letters D, A, V, I, D or C, A, R, R and it's like Pavlov's bell around here: Ding! Ding! Ding! and everybody rushes to type their opinion on David Carr.

Here's what I say about this, and every other Carr thread to be made in the future:

"We know who likes David. We know who doesn't. We know who thinks David can turn it around. And we know who doesn't. We know that the day is coming that David will either turn it around or not. And until then, perhaps we can all use our short-term memory (as well as our long-term memory) and let it go? I mean, if something fantastically new happens, a real bonified David Carr storyline, then GREAT! let's see it. But the same old, same old...with the same people stating the same mantra, the same stats, and the same come-backs is absurd. It smells of boredom, of the old 'Can't wait until we see some real, live football...I can't stand it...come on kick off!!!!' delimma that I think is going on here."

That's my rant. And I refuse to reply to a David Carr thread with actual football talk because it's all been discussed. It's just old news to me. Archive 3 or 4 really "great" David Carr threads if we need something to use as way to educate new people on how to troll on something for eons.

Runner
09-07-2006, 05:02 PM
Your'e missing an important point here--every player on this team was affected by Caper's and company but only Carr is being 'put on a pedestal ' to succeed, regardless of whether he shows progress or not. That 'rubs' some people the wrong way and is 'intensified' by some of the talk from Kubiak's camp about 'those who play, stay-those that don't, it's the highway.'


Well said.

Double Barrel
09-07-2006, 05:05 PM
Sorry, but the QB touches the ball HALF of the plays, the opposing team's QB touches the other half and torched our defense steadily last year. Carr hands off half the time so really, is that counted as "touches"?

Read carefully, and you might understand what I said:

No other player touches the ball EVERY play when his squad is on the field (well, except the center, of course). Good or bad, right or wrong, the QB is going to take the glory or the heat, depending on his play and the team's record.

And yes it counts as touches when he hands off, because he still has to read the defense, make adjustments before the snap, and make sure he gets the ball from the center to the RB in a position for the run to be set up right. I've seen too many QBs fumble at this point and make mistakes during the transition to not hold them accountable.

Maddict5
09-07-2006, 05:08 PM
Manning and Palmer both went to bad teams. Once they were drafted and started to make plays...their teams got better. Magic I think.


yes they went to bad teams.. but those bad teams surrounded both with quality offensive players early and both teams focused on strengthening their defence after

GP
09-07-2006, 05:14 PM
yes they went to bad teams.. but those bad teams surrounded both with quality offensive players early and both teams focused on strengthening their defence after

True.

That Cincy team was under Lebeau IIRC. Didn't HE have the team when Palmer was drafted? And then Marvin came in and basically had a fire sale...cleaned house and started bringing in the talent to surround Palmer. I think Palmer is the beneficiary of a great coach who has placed great talent around him. AND has been a top-notch coach, to boot.

Perhaps it can be the same with Kubiak?

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 05:19 PM
True.

That Cincy team was under Lebeau IIRC. Didn't HE have the team when Palmer was drafted? And then Marvin came in and basically had a fire sale...cleaned house and started bringing in the talent to surround Palmer. I think Palmer is the beneficiary of a great coach who has placed great talent around him. AND has been a top-notch coach, to boot.

Perhaps it can be the same with Kubiak?
That is the way I view it. Carr is not Manning or Brady, but he may just be servicable enough to be a top 15 quarterback in which the other aspects of our team (defense, special teams, running game, blocking and protection) get better and we become a well balanced team.

Porky
09-07-2006, 05:22 PM
And yes it counts as touches when he hands off, because he still has to read the defense, make adjustments before the snap, and make sure he gets the ball from the center to the RB in a position for the run to be set up right. I've seen too many QBs fumble at this point and make mistakes during the transition to not hold them accountable.

Yup, and not to mention that the effectiveness of the QB in the passing game, will impact how a defense can play the opposing offense in the running game as well. There is nobody that impacts a teams fortunes like the QB. It's why the QB gets all the glory in the good times, and takes a huge share of the blame during the bad times. It's the nature of the beast, and if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Texans_Chick
09-07-2006, 05:27 PM
Nice throw in with a salary cap era #1 QB. But whether its his name or Carr's I do not like #1 QB's. However, Manning went through 3-13 and turned out alright. Maybe it is in his DNA.


I agree.

Signed,
Carson Palmer


Maybe it's just me, but I just don't seeing the Sainted Manning or anyone succeeding in the situation we have had over the last four years. And no person ever could have succeeded in last years offense.

I've seen enough good things at the beginning of 2004, and the few moments when Carr had control of the play calling and Kubiak's belief in him, to wait and see.

As for the original subject of the thread, I have a hard time reading anything from Justice without thinking of his pre-draft position that VY can defy the laws of physics and his post draft position that the Texans are stupid dummyheads. So, whatever quotes he picks or the way he poses everything are picked through that filter.

The reality is that Carr's 2005 was poor, and he has had enough poor play over his career that he has no more good will with most of the fan base. There is no patience left. And Carr is statistically a slow starter. And he is in a new system that is supposed to be difficult to master.

He has an uphill battle to learn the offense and to win over the fans. If he succeeds under these conditions, it will be a marvel of coaching and would say a lot about Carr. If he has his typical crap first quarter, it will make booing Santa Claus sound like nothing.

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 05:29 PM
And Carr is statistically a slow starter.

Nitpicking here, but he is not a strong finisher as well which is surprising given the many prevent defenses in the 4th quarter he has faced in his career.

hollywood_texan
09-07-2006, 05:35 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I just don't seeing the Sainted Manning or anyone succeeding in the situation we have had over the last four years. And no person ever could have succeeded in last years offense.



You are assuming the previous coaching staff would have run the exact same offense and called the exact same plays with Manning. And, no less, the exact same result.

I think the problem with Capers and the previous offensive coaches was that they didn't believe in Carr. Just how I saw it.

Everything has changed on the the offense expect for Andre Johnson and David Carr.

David Carr looks the same as he has always been in the preseason under Kubiak.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 05:35 PM
You guys are dragging me down, I'm actually looking forward to this team since the one we started with last year is light years ahead.

infantrycak
09-07-2006, 05:42 PM
I think the problem with Capers and the previous offensive coaches was that they didn't believe in Carr. Just how I saw it.

Ehh--don't believe it and doesn't make sense. That is Capers ball. The tracks are there from Carolina thru to overcontrolling Palmer who previously has run more wide open offenses to promoting Pendry to the biggest one of all--HC's don't continue to trot out QB's they have no faith in and make no effort to replace either him or find a decent backup QB with your job on the line when you don't believe in the QB.

Porky
09-07-2006, 05:52 PM
Ehh--don't believe it and doesn't make sense. That is Capers ball. The tracks are there from Carolina thru to overcontrolling Palmer who previously has run more wide open offenses to promoting Pendry to the biggest one of all--HC's don't continue to trot out QB's they have no faith in and make no effort to replace either him or find a decent backup QB with your job on the line when you don't believe in the QB.

I disagree. I think they dumbed down the offense because Carr couldn't handle what Palmer was trying to implement. Palmer didn't get dumb overnight. Now, we already see quotes from Kubiak indicating that they are going to have to throttle back the offense because why? Because once again, Carr cannot digest a pro offense. I agree with the poster. Her thesis is that no QB would have survived in last years offense, but that is under the assumption that if Payton Manning or Tom Brady had suddenly been transported in the middle of Reliant that everything would have stayed at the status quo. I don't see that.

SESupergenius
09-07-2006, 05:58 PM
I disagree. I think they dumbed down the offense because Carr couldn't handle what Palmer was trying to implement. Palmer didn't get dumb overnight. Now, we already see quotes from Kubiak indicating that they are going to have to throttle back the offense because why? Because once again, Carr cannot digest a pro offense. I agree with the poster. Her thesis is that no QB would have survived in last years offense, but that is under the assumption that if Payton Manning or Tom Brady had suddenly been transported in the middle of Reliant that everything would have stayed at the status quo. I don't see that.
How much are they throttling back Porky? Didn't Carr run a Pro-style offense at Fresno? How many teams has Palmer been with now? How much of Palmer's offense did Carr know? Please complete your open ended assumptions.

Lucky
09-07-2006, 05:59 PM
That Cincy team was under Lebeau IIRC. Didn't HE have the team when Palmer was drafted?
That was Marvin Lewis' pick all the way. The Bengals brought in Rogers & Newman for show, but Lewis knew he had something special in Palmer. Plus, he was smart enough to build his O-line before throwing Carson into the fray.

I just want to echo what's been said about Eric Moulds. This is the kind of guy the Texans have so desperately needed. He's a difference maker on the field, and in the locker room. And I wish I had taken him in my fantasy draft (darn you, DB!).

hollywood_texan
09-07-2006, 06:07 PM
Ehh--don't believe it and doesn't make sense. That is Capers ball. The tracks are there from Carolina thru to overcontrolling Palmer who previously has run more wide open offenses to promoting Pendry to the biggest one of all--HC's don't continue to trot out QB's they have no faith in and make no effort to replace either him or find a decent backup QB with your job on the line when you don't believe in the QB.

Maybe so, but who would have replaced Carr? Think of the guys that were out there because there was no way they were going to draft another QB. You are right about the offensive strategy, but I think even then, they held things back with Carr as simple as the offense was.

Not to mention Capers would have to explain that a pick made a few years earlier was not correct to Bob McNair, and a pick that was the first pick of Franchise no less. Adding to that the Boselli pick in the expansion draft that was a complete disaster that they billed up. Which I don't understand why Boselli being first makes a difference. It was just marketing by the Texans. They could have picked him last in the expansion draft and wouldn't have made any other difference with who they got. That is besides the point.

I believe Capers did not have faith Carr and stayed with him because there really wasn't a better solution in his eyes. Sometimes in life, you are stuck in a no win situation, and I think Capers was in one of those situations. His offensive coaching strategy, coupled with a defense that caved, just made the problem even worse to a 2-14 season.

If you do think Capers believed in Carr, why would he only let Carr audible into a run play?

Kaiser Toro
09-07-2006, 06:18 PM
I'm actually looking forward to this team since the one we started with last year is light years ahead.

Now that is something we can all agree on, present trolls excluded of course.

tsip
09-07-2006, 07:36 PM
"And he is in a new system that is supposed to be difficult to master."

I believe this depends on the individual person and their decision-making capability. Cutler is having no problem learning the system and Plummer learned pretty quick. The offense is touted as a QB's 'offense,' so I would think the process to learn/execute is favorable for most---

thunderkyss
09-07-2006, 09:11 PM
hmmm....look at manning, palmer and nearly any other top qb....what do they have in common?? loads of quality around them.....thats why i believe brady is one of the best qbs ever as he doesnt have as much quality as the other qbs but has comparable success on offence....

we're going to see Givens in Tennessee. We'll see about some of the quality players Brady had around him. I'd love to see Reggie Wayne on another team. I'm going to have to watch guys leaving the Colts, the Bengals, and all these other teams with great QBs..... I bet those quality guys are really a little better than average.

I'm not saying Manning & Palmer don't have talent around them. I'm just saying it's not as great as what people think. For instance, and Offensive line is judged, mainly on the number of sacks they give up. While Indy's line can play badly, but still not give up a sack, because Peyton scans the field quickly, decides quickly where the ball should go, and gets the ball there, quickly, even if that means throwing it into the stands.


Reggie Wayne, David Givens, Dallas Clark......... IMHO, all avg......

thunderkyss
09-07-2006, 09:21 PM
We have some great posters on this MB...even those whose opinion I personally disagree with like Vinny regarding DC, I respect and acknowledge that in the end, theirs may actually be proven correct.

What I am simply betting on is this regarding DC... why would Kubiak bet on Carr if it was a bad bet? Of course, he could be wrong about DC, but I for one believe that the smart money is on Kubiak being right about this guy and that Kubes can coach him up to calm down, slow down, go through his progressions and play the way he apparently practices.

This week will be a huge test for DC... but my money is on that he will play well. :shades:

That's another question alltogether.

I think David is playing better(in the preseason) than he did in the regular season last year..... I think Kubiak is making progress with him.

others like Vinny don't see it.

Ibar_Harry
09-07-2006, 09:32 PM
I still think people are going to be surprised. I was viewing the videos on this Web site and Moulds so much as said we were hiding our offense in the preseason. If you watch the interviews with Carr you get the feeling that there's a surprise coming. May be I'm wrong, but I think the Eagles are in for a surprise. I know Moulds said he will even line up at RB sometimes. That certainly doesn't sound like the normal offense to me.

Carr has been getting better as the game wears on. Part of that is the coaching staff adjusting to what the other defense is doing. In the past our staff worked and worked and worked to come out quick at the start of the game. Actually they were successful on a number of occasions, but when the other team adapted we were lost. With Kubiak its the opposite. He adapts and then you better watch out.

Vinny
09-07-2006, 09:39 PM
That's another question alltogether.

I think David is playing better(in the preseason) than he did in the regular season last year..... I think Kubiak is making progress with him.

others like Vinny don't see it.see what? Other than underneath stuff, hitch passes, dump passes, fumbles and short tosses...exactly what do you see?

Wolf
09-07-2006, 10:02 PM
I wasn't overly impressed with Carr's game in preseason, yet I understand that we are running vanilla offense and they are running a vanila defense.

Kubiak said it best, he is going to put players in position to suceed and I think the bootlegs and such will help Carr and his game. having legit TE's are going to help Carr with his game.


He has to learn to trust his teammates(and viceversa) and make the right reads

Ibar_Harry
09-07-2006, 10:05 PM
see what? Other than underneath stuff, hitch passes, dump passes, fumbles and short tosses...exactly what do you see?

I understand how you feel Vinny, but Moulds may have let the cat out of the bag. Apparently, we haven't been showing much and the real offense will be seen this weekend. Will that be the case? Your guess is as good as mine. I keep saying something is up, but may be I'm reading the tea leaves wrong. We shall see. May be Carr will give you some reason for optomissim.

Honoring Earl 34
09-07-2006, 10:11 PM
I understand how you feel Vinny, but Moulds may have let the cat out of the bag. Apparently, we haven't been showing much and the real offense will be seen this weekend. Will that be the case? Your guess is as good as mine. I keep saying something is up, but may be I'm reading the tea leaves wrong. We shall see. May be Carr will give you some reason for optomissim.
Well Sage looked more relaxed in the vanilla offense . Its not Carr's prodution nearly as its the rattled look he has . It may be the Texans fault or Vinny's but he's not comfortable .

thunderkyss
09-07-2006, 10:17 PM
True.

That Cincy team was under Lebeau IIRC. Didn't HE have the team when Palmer was drafted? And then Marvin came in and basically had a fire sale...cleaned house and started bringing in the talent to surround Palmer. I think Palmer is the beneficiary of a great coach who has placed great talent around him. AND has been a top-notch coach, to boot.

Perhaps it can be the same with Kubiak?
Marvin Lewis Drafts: (http://www.bengals.com/team/draft_central06.asp)2005
Round Player College Games/Starts 2006 Status
1 David Pollack Georgia 14/5 Starter
2 Odell Thurman Georgia 16/15 Starter
3 Chris Henry West Virginia 14/5 Backup
4 Eric Ghiaciuc Central Michigan 5/1 Backup
5 Adam Kieft Central Michigan 0/0 Backup
6 Tab Perry UCLA 16/0 Backup
7 Jonathan Fanene Utah 3/1 Backup

2004
Round Player College Games/Starts 2006 Status
1 RB Chris Perry Michigan 16/2 Backup
2 CB Keiwan Ratliff Florida 32/7 Possible Starter
2 S Madieu Williams Maryland 20/16 Starter
3 LB Caleb Miller Arkansas 20/3 Backup
3 LB Landon Johnson Purdue 32/21 Backup
4 DT Matthias Askew Michigan State 6/0 Backup
4 DE Robert Geathers Georgia 30/17 Starter
4 T Stacy Andrews Mississippi 14/0 Backup
5 WR Maurice Mann Nevada 0/0 Released
6 CB Greg Brooks Southern Mississippi 11/0 Backup
7 QB Casey Bramlet Wyoming 0/0 Released

2003
1 QB Carson Palmer USC 29/29 Starter
2 LG Eric Steinbach Iowa 47/46 Starter
3 WR Kelley Washinton Tennessee 39/5 Backup
4 CB Dennis Weathersby Oregon State 4/0 Released
4 FB Jeremi Johnson Western Kentucky 48/30 Starter
5 OLB Khalid Abdullah Mars Hill 16/0 Released
6 DT Langston Moore South Carolina 15/8 Released
7 OL Scott Kooistra North Carolina St. 39/1 Backup
7 DE Elton Patterson Central Florida 0/0 Released

Yeah, you can see how much talent Marvin Lewis has put around Carson Palmer. in 2004 & 2003, he has drafted 9 offensive players with 21 picks. So he used 2/3 of his picks on defense.

Of the 9 offensive picks, 3 are starters. 2 were released, 3 backups, and 1 possible starter.

T.J.Houshmandzadeh was drafted in 2001, caught for 228 yards in 12 games in 2001, 492 yards in 16 games in 2002, sat out more or less in 2003, Then like magic, 978 yards in 16 games in 2004, & 958 yards in 12 games in 2005.

Chad Johnson was drafted in 2001, caught 329 yards in 12 games in 2001, 1166 yards in 16 games in 2002, 1355 yards in 16 games in 2003, 1274 yards in 16 games in 2004, and 1432 yards in 16 games in 2005. 1 TD in 2001, 2 TDs in 2002, 10 TDs in 2003, and 9 touchdowns in both 2004, and 2005. CJ is just special though........ he's the real deal.

PoolMaster21
09-07-2006, 10:22 PM
We have some great posters on this MB...even those whose opinion I personally disagree with like Vinny regarding DC, I respect and acknowledge that in the end, theirs may actually be proven correct.

What I am simply betting on is this regarding DC... why would Kubiak bet on Carr if it was a bad bet? Of course, he could be wrong about DC, but I for one believe that the smart money is on Kubiak being right about this guy and that Kubes can coach him up to calm down, slow down, go through his progressions and play the way he apparently practices.

This week will be a huge test for DC... but my money is on that he will play well. :shades:


This is an intriguing point. Kubiak is probably the only person in Houston who is impartial regarding DC. Kubiak must have studied 4 years worth of film as the basis of his decision to recommend keeping DC. As the new guy he's putting his reputation on the line, trusting that DC can thrive in a new system - nobody would have faulted Kubiak from dumping Carr and starting over with someone new. This doesn't mean Kubiak is right, it just means that he's definitely seen something positive in DC. I only hope we get to see it on the field and on the scoreboard sometime soon. :logo:

tsip
09-07-2006, 10:24 PM
I still think people are going to be surprised. I was viewing the videos on this Web site and Moulds so much as said we were hiding our offense in the preseason. If you watch the interviews with Carr you get the feeling that there's a surprise coming. May be I'm wrong, but I think the Eagles are in for a surprise. I know Moulds said he will even line up at RB sometimes. That certainly doesn't sound like the normal offense to me.

Carr has been getting better as the game wears on. Part of that is the coaching staff adjusting to what the other defense is doing. In the past our staff worked and worked and worked to come out quick at the start of the game. Actually they were successful on a number of occasions, but when the other team adapted we were lost. With Kubiak its the opposite. He adapts and then you better watch out.

...yep, I think you're in for a surprise!

tsip
09-07-2006, 10:27 PM
I wasn't overly impressed with Carr's game in preseason, yet I understand that we are running vanilla offense and they are running a vanila defense.

Kubiak said it best, he is going to put players in position to suceed and I think the bootlegs and such will help Carr and his game. having legit TE's are going to help Carr with his game.


He has to learn to trust his teammates(and viceversa) and make the right reads

Kubiak has already said he's had to hold back some of his offense but it wasn't because of the opposition...

thunderkyss
09-07-2006, 10:44 PM
see what? Other than underneath stuff, hitch passes, dump passes, fumbles and short tosses...exactly what do you see?

I wasn't originally on the same page with the David Carr pick. I wanted Joey.

But, I saw David getting better and progressing as the years went by. I started to respect the guy after the beating he was taking, and coming back for more.

2005, I saw a scared kid who didn't have a chance, & still, we scored enough points to win more times than not. I was only disappointed with his poise.

I know he's rushed a couple of throws in the preseason, but he hasn't looked nearly as bad as he did last year. Which I think is half the battle.

I'm not happy with the choices he has made, the check downs, leaving the pocket..... throwing into cover. & I don't like some of the throws he's made.... most of them behind the reciever........... but I don't expect these things to have changed over night.

If he wasn't playing scared last year, maybe.....

CloakNNNdagger
09-07-2006, 10:45 PM
If Carr can stop having to get up the morning after every game day, running to the mirror, pinching his cheeks saying in disbelief "It's good to be alive," then maybe, just maybe we'll have a QB that can stand firm while adequately "reading" the field................then sky may not necessarily become the limit, but we might at least get a better view from the 4th floor.

tsip
09-07-2006, 10:53 PM
How much are they throttling back Porky? Didn't Carr run a Pro-style offense at Fresno? How many teams has Palmer been with now? How much of Palmer's offense did Carr know? Please complete your open ended assumptions.

Carr ran a basic offense at Fresno that required (as Ibar can tell you) little or no decision making on his part and featured the same 2 WR (over 60% of offense/tds). Carr was almost 100% a pocket passer and avg less than 2 ypc rushing.

I've mentioned it before-with little response-that Carr has never run the type of offense he's learning now, so I never understood why so many posters think he will flourish in this offense based upon a) QB decision making and b) throwing on the run and c) throwing to multiple receivers, etc.

Texans_Chick
09-07-2006, 11:01 PM
"And he is in a new system that is supposed to be difficult to master."

I believe this depends on the individual person and their decision-making capability. Cutler is having no problem learning the system and Plummer learned pretty quick. The offense is touted as a QB's 'offense,' so I would think the process to learn/execute is favorable for most---


The fans want Cutler to start. Shanahan wants no part of that. Because of the difficulty of the offense.

Plummer had fat numbers his first two years, but his interceptions and ball control were pretty non good. Third year, his overall numbers weren't as big, but he didn't give up the ball.

Oh, and in Plummers first game playing for Denver, he had 0 TDs and 3 interceptions. If that happens to Carr on Sunday, you won't be able to turn on the radio without it blowing up.

And as for the general discussion in the thread about running bootlegs and dink and dunks to help Carr out: It is a fundamental part of the Denver system. Part of it is misdirection and to penalize over pursuit. And part of it is a recognition at least in Denver, that their line size is not ideal to keep a stationary pocket. And their offense is very dink and dunk if that is what the defense is giving them. If the defenders cheat up, the offense is designed to set things up early so that the long ball will be busted later on.

This sounds like cake, but each person on the offense has to do their role precisely to get the defenders to bite the way they are supposed to. A step wrong here or there screws everything up. This is the thing that is hardest to see from a fan perspective. It is also hard because Carr is not someone walking into an offense that has already been running smoothly. Just about everyone is starting fresh, so everyone has to do their jobs to make stuff work.

Yeah, the QB position is the one that makes or breaks the offense, but ultimately, everybody else needs to do their jobs too, but that isn't as fun to write about in the newspaper.

Wolf
09-07-2006, 11:05 PM
Carr ran a basic offense at Fresno that required (as Ibar can tell you) little or no decision making on his part and featured the same 2 WR (over 60% of offense/tds). Carr was almost 100% a pocket passer and avg less than 2 ypc rushing.

I've mentioned it before-with little response-that Carr has never run the type of offense he's learning now, so I never understood why so many posters think he will flourish in this offense based upon a) QB decision making and b) throwing on the run and c) throwing to multiple receivers, etc.

Wow
basic offense yet 2 WR's accounted for over 60% of the offense?
Basic offense IMO is a 3 yards and a cloud of dust

tsip
09-07-2006, 11:06 PM
Maybe so, but who would have replaced Carr? Think of the guys that were out there because there was no way they were going to draft another QB. You are right about the offensive strategy, but I think even then, they held things back with Carr as simple as the offense was.

Not to mention Capers would have to explain that a pick made a few years earlier was not correct to Bob McNair, and a pick that was the first pick of Franchise no less. Adding to that the Boselli pick in the expansion draft that was a complete disaster that they billed up. Which I don't understand why Boselli being first makes a difference. It was just marketing by the Texans. They could have picked him last in the expansion draft and wouldn't have made any other difference with who they got. That is besides the point.

I believe Capers did not have faith Carr and stayed with him because there really wasn't a better solution in his eyes. Sometimes in life, you are stuck in a no win situation, and I think Capers was in one of those situations. His offensive coaching strategy, coupled with a defense that caved, just made the problem even worse to a 2-14 season.

If you do think Capers believed in Carr, why would he only let Carr audible into a run play?

I've mentioned some of these same thoughts before, in that Caper's and co. were a 'little' surprised by Carr's 'slow learning' and 'decision making.' They tried to correct his throwing motion by having him throw over a ladder, but shelved that idea--never said why, but you can assume. Too, Palmer came into town with this 'big,bad' playbook that he quickly had to 'down size' and simplify--again, think what you want.

Now, Kubiak is doing the same thing with his playbook. While most people have assummed Carr's problems are strictly related to the 'circumstances' around him, it's quite possible the root problem lies in asking someone to do something they can't--some people can grasp things in a timely manner and some folks (even though they try hard) can not--no matter how much time they're given....

tsip
09-07-2006, 11:08 PM
Wow
basic offense yet 2 WR's accounted for over 60% of the offense?
Basic offense IMO is a 3 yards and a cloud of dust

...so what would you call using 2 receivers?...pro-style, maybe?

tsip
09-07-2006, 11:21 PM
"Plummer had fat numbers his first two years, but his interceptions and ball control were pretty non good. Third year, his overall numbers weren't as big, but he didn't give up the ball.

Oh, and in Plummers first game playing for Denver, he had 0 TDs and 3 interceptions. If that happens to Carr on Sunday, you won't be able to turn on the radio without it blowing up."

Well, he did have a little redemption his 2nd game with 3 TDs and his rating is around the 89 mark (Brady is about 90) for his 3 yrs with Denver, though not close to Manning's 100+!

Napa Auto Parts
09-07-2006, 11:21 PM
Well David Carr might play like Tim Couch but he has a nice Set of Hair on him who cares if he cant play in this league doesn't he look Awesome when ever he grooms he's hand thru his hair.

and i guess since we have a new coaching staff im willing to give David 5 games to show some improvement before i start praying for us to sign tim couch.

Second Honeymoon
09-07-2006, 11:30 PM
I'm shocked that's 9 am and nobody has linked THIS (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/justice/4168882.html) yet, because IMO, it's one of his more informative reads.

He does make a lot of assumptions about how much that Carr really knows or understands what he's doing wrong.



___

That article is a great read even if its from a baseball beat writer. One thing I like about Justice is that he doesnt worry about keeping good PR with the team (err teams) he covers. He calls it like he sees it and it's generally how it is. I cant remember the old Chron/Post writer's name but his writing reminds me of Dale Robertson? when it comes to his football writing. That isnt necessarily always a good thing but he comes off as more into big picture and feeling rather than details and stats...and I appreciate that from a writer...even if that writer had a very bad white man jheri curl

I agree with (just about) everything he said and finally someone in the media at large has pointed out how rushed and hurried everything is with Carr. He drops back so damn fast that he cant be effectively looking downfield going through reads. Watching other NFL teams play you really get to see the difference between Carr and legit NFL starting QBs. I hope Kubes can do something with this canvas because presently Carr is a broken QB.

doug

p.s. they just showed clips from Kubiak's press conference on ESPN's preview of hte Texans and when he talked about dreaming about bringing a championship to Houston, it did move me and it sounded from the heart. I like the guy alot and if you cant hire Bill Walsh or Mike Holmgren to salvage a QB...well you gotta hire a guy like Kubes.... <3 Kubes

CloakNNNdagger
09-08-2006, 06:33 AM
Wow
basic offense yet 2 WR's accounted for over 60% of the offense?
Basic offense IMO is a 3 yards and a cloud of dust

Don't you know, that Carr should flourish now after an additional 4 years of experience in a "basic offense" .........run, run, pass, punt..........:shots:

Malloy
09-08-2006, 07:21 AM
Ok, here is why I like this writeup by Justice. It is fairly objective yet speculative, BUT when being speculative, you as a reader knows, he's not doing the ESPN speculation-is-truth stuff.

All in all a nice read that sums up alot of the fears and sceptisism surrounding Carr at the QB position. :)

GP
09-08-2006, 07:45 AM
Regarding Vinny's viewpoint that Carr can only hit the small stuff, not being able to hit the deep stuff...

Bare with me here.

What about Capers' style and philosophy leads you to believe that Carr HAD anything down the field to begin with? (1) We had one WR threat, AJ, and two guys who we cut and are not exactly torching it up on other teams this year...leading the defense to crowd (and double) AJ and then blitz David to where he couldn't do anything deep, (2) Capers' solution was to retreat even further and do a lot of max protect.

Perhaps, just MAYBE, the whole system itself has played a pretty good hand in causing Carr to regress so badly. I think Carr made a lot of gutsy plays on his own merits, starting his career off, but I think the "reason" he regresses so rapidly last year was due to the entire team collapsing under the colossal weight of an inept team of coaches...and a completely absurd gameplan that was definitely not NFL caliber.

I agree he's havig problems down the field. And if he has those same issues at the end of this season, then "Yeah," something is wrong with the player and NOT anywhere else.

I hope he gets it together.

Marcus
09-08-2006, 08:45 AM
Regarding Vinny's viewpoint that Carr can only hit the small stuff, not being able to hit the deep stuff...

Bare with me here.

What about Capers' style and philosophy leads you to believe that Carr HAD anything down the field to begin with? (1) We had one WR threat, AJ, and two guys who we cut and are not exactly torching it up on other teams this year...leading the defense to crowd (and double) AJ and then blitz David to where he couldn't do anything deep, (2) Capers' solution was to retreat even further and do a lot of max protect.

Perhaps, just MAYBE, the whole system itself has played a pretty good hand in causing Carr to regress so badly. I think Carr made a lot of gutsy plays on his own merits, starting his career off, but I think the "reason" he regresses so rapidly last year was due to the entire team collapsing under the colossal weight of an inept team of coaches...and a completely absurd gameplan that was definitely not NFL caliber.

I agree he's havig problems down the field. And if he has those same issues at the end of this season, then "Yeah," something is wrong with the player and NOT anywhere else.

I hope he gets it together.
I mentioned this on another thread, but I just want to see something from Carr that will make me want think that Kubes is making progress with him. Just a hint . . just a clue, that he's getting somewhere with the headcase. I'm willing to eat a loss, just to see it.

I'm not expecting to see it, though. I guess that goes against the "In Kubiak I trust" mantra, because I do trust him.

"Have a little faith!" Yeah, I know.

thunderkyss
09-08-2006, 09:45 AM
Regarding Vinny's viewpoint that Carr can only hit the small stuff, not being able to hit the deep stuff...

Bare with me here.

What about Capers' style and philosophy leads you to believe that Carr HAD anything down the field to begin with? (1) We had one WR threat, AJ, and two guys who we cut and are not exactly torching it up on other teams this year...leading the defense to crowd (and double) AJ and then blitz David to where he couldn't do anything deep, (2) Capers' solution was to retreat even further and do a lot of max protect.

(1)Reggie Wayne wasn't always reggie wayne, TJ Houshmandzadeh wasn't always TJ whosYourMama, Steve Smith wasn't always steve smith, Terrell Owens wasn't always T.O., and the list goes on & on. QBs have been getting the job done with one #1 reciever for years. & only a few #2s have really stepped up their game... SteveSmith, T.O., ToryHolt, & maybe T.J.
Good QBs make avg recievers look like ReggieWayne, DanteStallworth(we'll see), Bobby Ingram, or Keenan McCardell.

Maybe our #2s were that bad, I'm not saying they weren't....... just saying I don't like that excuse.

(2)Given the situation, there wasn't much else he could do.


Perhaps, just MAYBE, the whole system itself has played a pretty good hand in causing Carr to regress so badly. I think Carr made a lot of gutsy plays on his own merits, starting his career off, but I think the "reason" he regresses so rapidly last year was due to the entire team collapsing under the colossal weight of an inept team of coaches...and a completely absurd gameplan that was definitely not NFL caliber.

The same gameplan(more or less) that won the Steelers, Ravens, and Tampa Bay a SuperBowl. Run the ball, control the clock, and stop people on Defense. That's just football........ nothing wrong with that.


I agree he's having problems down the field. And if he has those same issues at the end of this season, then "Yeah," something is wrong with the player and NOT anywhere else.

I hope he gets it together.

why wait till the end of the season?? He had the problem last year, the year before, and the year before that....... He has it in this preseason.... what's wrong with saying he has the problem.

Vinny doesn't think he'll change...... I do..... you do.... what's the big deal?? It's just an opinion.

Vinny
09-08-2006, 09:48 AM
Don't you know, that Carr should flourish now after an additional 4 years of experience in a "basic offense" .........run, run, pass, punt..........:shots:we threw the ball on first down far more than you probably think....aj broke it down a few times here but nobody wants to listen or peek into the gamebooks.

infantrycak
09-08-2006, 09:50 AM
we threw the ball on first down far more than you probably think....aj broke it down a few times here but nobody wants to listen or peek into the gamebooks.

Does a hitch pass to AJ (which is a designed play rather than QB discretion) make it a non-basic offense?

infantrycak
09-08-2006, 09:53 AM
The same gameplan(more or less) that won the Steelers, Ravens, and Tampa Bay a SuperBowl. Run the ball, control the clock, and stop people on Defense. That's just football........ nothing wrong with that.

Well that's as simplistic as saying all teams have the same game plan--scoring more points than the opposition. Completely aside from any QB debate the coaching last year was a monstrosity which in no way resembled the coaching for the Steelers, Ravens or Bucs.

Honoring Earl 34
09-08-2006, 10:20 AM
I think at the end of the day ... people defend Carr because he's a clean cut Christian boy , who's a family / aw shucks kinda guy and was the first pick of the franchise . There are fans who think he's never had a real team around him therefore he has'nt had a fair shot .

On the other hand there is the side which thinks Carr could have never played for a guy like Ditka. Can you imagine the first time Carr sacked himself ... Ditka would have ripped his helmet off and reamed him .

Its funny when fans say Carr needs time with the offense because in my mind thats not the problem ... the other three QBs looked more relaxed in the new offense .

Carr can either start playing like a seasoned vet Sunday or look good with a clipboard but the starting QB position is the one area that I can't see progress . I can't stand when I spend my Sunday afternoon watching the game and see things that stick out like a sore thumb and Davey is never held accountable .

Vinny
09-08-2006, 10:23 AM
Does a hitch pass to AJ (which is a designed play rather than QB discretion) make it a non-basic offense?I donno, but when you sack yourself you pretty much kill a drive.

thunderkyss
09-08-2006, 11:32 AM
The same gameplan(more or less) that won the Steelers, Ravens, and Tampa Bay a SuperBowl. Run the ball, control the clock, and stop people on Defense. That's just football........ nothing wrong with that.



Well that's as simplistic as saying all teams have the same game plan--scoring more points than the opposition. Completely aside from any QB debate the coaching last year was a monstrosity which in no way resembled the coaching for the Steelers, Ravens or Bucs.

I'm just saying there is nothing wrong with that style of football. I'm not saying the Chicago Bears will win the SuperBowl because they play the same style. We had coaching issues, I'm not debating that.

But if I had to choose what style of offense the Houston Texans will run, it we would be a hardnosed defensive team that runs the football. I don't agree with sitting on a 7 point lead, and running out the clock with 12 minutes to go in the 4th, but I've seen it done, with success, a lot.

jerek
09-08-2006, 11:33 AM
I donno, but when you sack yourself you pretty much kill a drive.

I may be wrong but I just don't remember this happening that much. That it happens it all is questionable in itself -- throw the friggin ball out of bounds before you run out, I get it -- but I seem to hear this a lot.

Does any one have a stat on how many times Carr "sacked himself?" -- i.e. ran out of bounds or was for whatever other reason blatantly at fault?

infantrycak
09-08-2006, 11:37 AM
Does any one have a stat on how many times Carr "sacked himself?" -- i.e. ran out of bounds or was for whatever other reason blatantly at fault?

McClain reported that the new coaching staff (specifically who unknown) had reviewed film of Carr and attributed the fault for 20 sacks to him. The time period was not specified but was most likely last year so that would be 20 of 68. That's a bad problem and one which has to be fixed. OTOH 48 sacks which are not Carr's fault is still an abysmal record.

FYI--the play by plays at NFL.com identify when a sack results from running out of bounds--it was 9-11 times last year generally for a loss of 0-2 yds. It's stupid to do but doesn't affect the game near as much as made out around here. The real issue is did he have a receiver down field to make a play and didn't make the good play, not whether he dumped the ball out of bounds for a different bad result.

HOU-TEX
09-08-2006, 11:41 AM
McClain reported that the new coaching staff (specifically who unknown) had reviewed film of Carr and attributed the fault for 20 sacks to him. The time period was not specified but was most likely last year so that would be 20 of 68. That's a bad problem and one which has to be fixed. OTOH 48 sacks which are not Carr's fault is still an abysmal record.

Personally, from the way things look so far. His sacking himself appears to be resolved by throwing OBs or tucking and running.

jerek
09-08-2006, 11:42 AM
McClain reported that the new coaching staff (specifically who unknown) had reviewed film of Carr and attributed the fault for 20 sacks to him. The time period was not specified but was most likely last year so that would be 20 of 68. That's a bad problem and one which has to be fixed. OTOH 48 sacks which are not Carr's fault is still an abysmal record.

I remembered that basic quote but I didn't remember the specifics. My recollection was that they had first attributed 48 to the O-line and that left 20 to be divided among Carr, the backfield, etc. Furthermore the "sacking himself" is something I've most typically seen used to describe Carr running out of bounds behind the LOS, though Vinny may have meant it in a larger context.

Either way I'm not denying that taking unnecessary sacks is an area in which Carr specially needs improvement from last year, though I think that he is showing a little improvement in that category already. Just wondering if any one had a more descriptive breakdown.

infantrycak
09-08-2006, 11:48 AM
I remembered that basic quote but I didn't remember the specifics. My recollection was that they had first attributed 48 to the O-line and that left 20 to be divided among Carr, the backfield, etc. Furthermore the "sacking himself" is something I've most typically seen used to describe Carr running out of bounds behind the LOS, though Vinny may have meant it in a larger context.

Either way I'm not denying that taking unnecessary sacks is an area in which Carr specially needs improvement from last year, though I think that he is showing a little improvement in that category already. Just wondering if any one had a more descriptive breakdown.

I remember the interview clearly and it was 20 to Carr with the rest being split among the OL, RB's and TE's. Carr has two problems. Vinny and others talked about the ROB's thing back in the 2002 season. 2003 and 2004 that went down substantially. 2005 it was back and a problem again--like I said above it is stupid and a problem but not as earth shattering as made out in terms of consequence to the game. Much more importantly, Carr has not shown good pocket presence even before he could credibly be described as beat down due to a lack of a pocket. He doesn't have the feel of a Big Ben or Brady for small moves to help his OL out. That one may be something which improves but probably will never become a strength--IMO that is the more important part of what Vinny is talking about.

jerek
09-08-2006, 11:50 AM
I remember the interview clearly and it was 20 to Carr with the rest being split among the OL, RB's and TE's. Carr has two problems. Vinny and others talked about the ROB's thing back in the 2002 season. 2003 and 2004 that went down substantially. 2005 it was back and a problem again--like I said above it is stupid and a problem but not as earth shattering as made out in terms of consequence to the game. Much more importantly, Carr has not shown good pocket presence even before he could credibly be described as beat down due to a lack of a pocket. He doesn't have the feel of a Big Ben or Brady for small moves to help his OL out. That one may be something which improves but probably will never become a strength--IMO that is the more important part of what Vinny is talking about.

Agreed.

phan1
09-08-2006, 12:29 PM
I like how we're all assuming that Kubiak will take out Carr if he's not playing well. Sorry but I really doubt that. QBs DO have a double standard and I really think Kubiak will stick with Carr for a long while before he makes a change mostle cause:

1) At his worst, Carr isn't THAT BAD! Yeah you've got to put people around him, but I would definitely say he's a "serviceable" QB, and it's hard to bench your franchise QB when he's just not playing that bad to bench. I'd say he's a better Kyle Boller right now. Kubiak's not going to give up on him for a damn long time...

DRAMA
09-08-2006, 12:47 PM
Does a hitch pass to AJ (which is a designed play rather than QB discretion) make it a non-basic offense?

Furthermore, did the 17 hitch passes (With no hitch-n-go's ANYWHERE in site) we would throw in one game constitute an aerial attack? :)

I'm so glad Pendry and Capers are gone.... :bananasplit:

Lucky
09-08-2006, 12:49 PM
New title, same David Carr thread. Please continue.

Kaiser Toro
09-08-2006, 12:50 PM
New title, same David Carr thread. Please continue.

New staff and team, same David Carr results. Did I say that out loud? Is that wrong? :)

Tulip
09-08-2006, 12:57 PM
Does any one have a stat on how many times Carr "sacked himself?" -- i.e. ran out of bounds or was for whatever other reason blatantly at fault?

I don't know - but it was enough for Joey Porter to comment on it.

Oh, and earlier this year, Kubiak blamed roughly half of Carr's sacks on Carr himself. I'm not sure if he recorded an actual tally, though.

Lucky
09-08-2006, 01:06 PM
New staff and team, same David Carr results. Did I say that out loud? Is that wrong? :)
I get an assist for that lob, right?

TK_Gamer
09-08-2006, 01:13 PM
I cant wait to see how many people give carr a fair shake with the situation we have. for instance, when our rookie LT gets out of position and gives up a sack where carr runs out of bounds, who will be honest and blame spencer, or when lundy misses a blitz pickup and carr runs for his life how many will cry happy feet and blame carr for that too. dont get me wrong, if it's his fault its his fault. I just dont see too many on this board being honest and giving carr a fair shake. he will never get a fair shake on this team. at least not from the media and the "fans" on this board.

dalemurphy
09-08-2006, 01:27 PM
I'll guarantee Carr gets yanked at some point in the season. The guy just doesn't have what it takes to play NFL QB. I knew it years ago. Kubiak knows it but he was dealt these cards and has to play them...for now.


Carr was a good quarterback in 2004. So, I don't know what you think you knew then. Furthermore, Kubiak wasn't dealt these cards, he picked them out of the deck. It was his decision to keep Carr. I share many of the concerns about whether Carr in '06 and beyond will be a good QB- but can't we be honest about things... Kubiak thinks he's the answer at the position over Rosenfels and over those players available in the draft and available via trade or free agent market. Let's see what happens, okay!?

hobie
09-08-2006, 01:32 PM
Well if DC runs out of bounds because of the line breaking down without throwing the ball away and avoiding loss of yards, it will be his fault. A good amount of his sack totals are because he ran out of bounds losing yards. Hopefully Kube's reinforced the thinking part to DC to just dump the ball. "Son, you are out of the pocket, throw the ball away and not lose us yards"
That alone will gain us more opportunities to hold on the ball and to score more.

Second Honeymoon
09-08-2006, 01:37 PM
I think at the end of the day ... people defend Carr because he's a clean cut Christian boy , who's a family / aw shucks kinda guy and was the first pick of the franchise . There are fans who think he's never had a real team around him therefore he has'nt had a fair shot .

On the other hand there is the side which thinks Carr could have never played for a guy like Ditka. Can you imagine the first time Carr sacked himself ... Ditka would have ripped his helmet off and reamed him .

Its funny when fans say Carr needs time with the offense because in my mind thats not the problem ... the other three QBs looked more relaxed in the new offense .

Carr can either start playing like a seasoned vet Sunday or look good with a clipboard but the starting QB position is the one area that I can't see progress . I can't stand when I spend my Sunday afternoon watching the game and see things that stick out like a sore thumb and Davey is never held accountable .

QFT. I agree with you 100%. Not surprised that you are an old school fan. You have seen good QB play during the Oilers tenure here in Houston and NONE of us have seen good QB play with the Texans...even going into our 5th year...You, like me, are sick of the excuses from the fans/media/coaches and are sick of the 'aw shucks' mentality from Carr. Here is to hoping Carr makes a quantum leap from how he looked in the preseason. I just think its funny how everyone last year was like 'its just preseason, were fine' and now people are saying the same damn thing......do these peeps ever learn? I guess its gonna take a 0-16 or 1-15 record for them to get it through their skulls and admit Carr is a bust.

doug ftw

Vinny
09-08-2006, 01:40 PM
I don't know - but it was enough for Joey Porter to comment on it.

Oh, and earlier this year, Kubiak blamed roughly half of Carr's sacks on Carr himself. I'm not sure if he recorded an actual tally, though.

"He didn't know what to do," Steelers outside linebacker Joey Porter said of Carr. "We had him confused. He was arguing with his offensive linemen. It's always a good sign for the defense when the quarterback's yelling at his teammates."...


Carr also was forced to run out of bounds two times by the Steelers for two more sacks.

"Sometimes he sacked himself," Porter said. "He was running everywhere, (taking) delay of games, throwing the ball in the dirt, taking sacks, running into guys — he was scrambling for no reason at times."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/fb/texansfront/3359406.html

Double Barrel
09-08-2006, 01:46 PM
I like how we're all assuming that Kubiak will take out Carr if he's not playing well. Sorry but I really doubt that.

There is no assumption on our part. Our head coach said that he'd pull the QB if the situation comes to that point. Kubiak is not going to hitch his career wagon to a horse that cannot pull it, no matter where that horse was drafted or how much money he makes.

Kubiak is a no B.S. item, and truthfulness from the coaching staff is something to get used to after the last regime's cliche'-ridden interviews.

Kaiser Toro
09-08-2006, 01:47 PM
I get an assist for that lob, right?

You would make Reid Gettys proud.

Honoring Earl 34
09-08-2006, 01:50 PM
:francis: I think its better at this point to try to be an optimist ... having said that I was at my sons JV game and the QB scrambled to by himself time . Finally about a yard from going out of bounds and the LBs approaching rapidly ... he threw the ball out of bounds . A dad yelled " Good play son " I then replied " Dang they've been trying for five years to teach David Carr that " and everyone started cracking up .

Kaiser Toro
09-08-2006, 01:53 PM
:francis: I think its better at this point to try to be an optimist ... having said that I was at my sons JV game and the QB scrambled to by himself time . Finally about a yard from going out of bounds and the LBs approaching rapidly ... he threw the ball out of bounds . A dad yelled " Good play son " I then replied " Dang they've been trying for five years to teach David Carr that " and everyone started cracking up .

Not sure where I learned it, but football is a game of feet and inches.

HOU-TEX
09-08-2006, 02:00 PM
Not sure where I learned it, but football is a game of feet and inches.

Probably in Little League.:rollbaby:

Second Honeymoon
09-08-2006, 02:00 PM
you give Carr 60 games but VY zero games? That's what homers do. Wear it proud, embrace it, but don't deny it if you use this kind of logic.

*Cheers at Vinny*

Sad thing is it seems the guy signing the checks is the biggest myopic homer of all.....Mr. McNair's inexperience, lack of humility, and stubborness have hurt this team as much of Carr's lack of production and promise.

Dont get me wrong, I love Bob because he brought the NFL back to Houston when it didnt look like we wouldn't get a team till we were all collecting Social Security or worse...but once the 'honeymoon' is over, you have to start holding people accountable. And if you wait too long to hold people accountable and make changes, it can do irrepairable damage to a franchise. This happened at the 3 most important spots of our team..the coach, the GM, and the QB.

The Texans have fixed 2 of the 3 problems with smart choices at HC and GM. Kubes is a local guy that could become our Cowher and hiring Smith as GM is a seemingly great move for our team in that he is skilled, knowledgeable, and young in addition to being a minority in the front office. But still we sit here with Carr at QB and there wasn't even competition in TC...that is the hand of McNair in my honest opinion...

chuckm
09-08-2006, 02:05 PM
Well unfortunately I had meetings today and some work so I couldn't watch the boards very closely ....

Does Carr still suck?

Second Honeymoon
09-08-2006, 02:06 PM
New title, same David Carr thread. Please continue.

If that ain't the truth, what is?

afcman
09-08-2006, 02:10 PM
They never protected him, never put enough talent around him.

Hells Bells!!! EVERY HUMAN ON THE EARTH has known this since the first season except for our GM and front office people. If our next draft isn't any better/different then it's time for a COMPLETE house cleaning.

HOU-TEX
09-08-2006, 02:12 PM
*Cheers at Vinny*

Sad thing is it seems the guy signing the checks is the biggest myopic homer of all.....Mr. McNair's inexperience, lack of humility, and stubborness have hurt this team as much of Carr's lack of production and promise.

Dont get me wrong, I love Bob because he brought the NFL back to Houston when it didnt look like we wouldn't get a team till we were all collecting Social Security or worse...but once the 'honeymoon' is over, you have to start holding people accountable. And if you wait too long to hold people accountable and make changes, it can do irrepairable damage to a franchise. This happened at the 3 most important spots of our team..the coach, the GM, and the QB.

The Texans have fixed 2 of the 3 problems with smart choices at HC and GM. Kubes is a local guy that could become our Cowher and hiring Smith as GM is a seemingly great move for our team in that he is skilled, knowledgeable, and young in addition to being a minority in the front office. But still we sit here with Carr at QB and there wasn't even competition in TC...that is the hand of McNair in my honest opinion...

If you're saying it's McNairs fault, then you're saying Kubiak was a mistake.:confused: McNair hired Kubiak, which was the one who made the decision to keep Carr. McNair shouldn't have to make player decisions. That's what the FO is for. If he was to get involved in player decisions, then he would be putting himself in the same class as Bud Adams, Benson, Jerry, etc.:twocents:

U4ikrob
09-08-2006, 03:29 PM
Good article - On the first page. Skipping past the 10 pages of ....

I like this article better. Kubiaks 3 step plan with David. It seemed to capture all the other points and squash a few rumors running in this thread.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-texans090406&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

David certainly has areas to improve on and IMO we certainly havent seen his best football days here. IMO Kubiak will do like they did with Elway and give David a couple of games to pull up the boot straps and make a good show of things. If he doesnt show good enough ball control on the field he will sit him and play Sage so David can watch and work on getting things under better control.

David must step it up this year bottom line and Kubiak will push him until he does or he breaks down - one or the other. He's not going to let David take the team down long term and knows David has a learning curve and some bad habits to overcome. The same could have been said about Plummer when he came to Denver. If David wants to continue being the starting QB for this team he's going to have to play better - not just harder. He needs to shift gears on gameday and get his head in the game and his game face on - plain and simple. Play smart smart football. Kubiak will have patience with DC and will work him extremely hard to get him game day ready, but that said just from the coaches comments I dont see Kubiak letting the team go 0-2 without pulling DC out and making some changes to make the team better too.

Bottom line - the kid gloves are off - David has a lot to play for this year and I think he will show it. IMO he will struggle a little at first along with some of the other players and start to get in a rhythm towards the middle of the year and the Texans go 7-9. I look for next years team to be quite a bit better than this years.

tsip
09-08-2006, 03:37 PM
If you're saying it's McNairs fault, then you're saying Kubiak was a mistake.:confused: McNair hired Kubiak, which was the one who made the decision to keep Carr. McNair shouldn't have to make player decisions. That's what the FO is for. If he was to get involved in player decisions, then he would be putting himself in the same class as Bud Adams, Benson, Jerry, etc.:twocents:

IMO, one of the primary reasons that Kubiak was hired is his ability to get 'production' out of players in his style of offense-especially true with RB's and QB's. Kubiak's offense is 'user friendly' to both these positions. In contrast, despite his short comings, Carr has played in a 'joke' of an offense his first 4 yrs in the NFL. So, IMO, if I were McNair I'd want to give Carr the benefit of the doubt for '06, if Kubiak 'signed off' on the proposal. Kubiak did, so everything has been set in motion to see if Carr is the 'answer.'

Without a doubt, the 'ball' is in Carr's 'corner,' and it's clearly 'showtime.' I know it's been a tough 4 yrs for everyone but I know I'd rather know-once and for all (given all the improvements around him) if Carr can lead us to 'better days (wins).' However, saying this-and not expecting the 'Super Bowl' over night-we should see 'positive' signs of progress from the 'get go' from David. This will be Kubiak's call, no doubt...here's hoping it's a good one!:twocents:

tsip
09-08-2006, 03:43 PM
Good article - On the first page. Skipping past the 10 pages of ....

I like this article better. Kubiaks 3 step plan with David. It seemed to capture all the other points and squash a few rumors running in this thread.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-texans090406&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

David certainly has areas to improve on and IMO we certainly havent seen his best football days here. IMO Kubiak will do like they did with Elway and give David a couple of games to pull up the boot straps and make a good show of things. If he doesnt show good enough ball control on the field he will sit him and play Sage so David can watch and work on getting things under better control.

David must step it up this year bottom line and Kubiak will push him until he does or he breaks down - one or the other. He's not going to let David take the team down long term and knows David has a learning curve and some bad habits to overcome. If David wants to continue being the starting QB for this team he's going to have to play better - not just harder. He needs to shift gears on gameday and get his head in the game and his game face on - plain and simple. Play smart smart football. Kubiak will have patience with DC and will work him extremely hard to get him game day ready, but that said just from the coaches comments I dont see Kubiak letting the team go 0-2 without pulling DC out and making some changes to make the team better too.

Bottom line - the kid gloves are off - David has a lot to play for this year and I think he will show it. IMO he will struggle a little at first along with some of the other players and start to get in a rhythm towards the middle of the year and the Texans go 7-9. I look for next years team to be quite a bit better than this years.

...great post, sent you a rep, forgot to include my sig

hadaad
09-08-2006, 03:44 PM
I'm unlike a lot of you in that I like reading the Carr threads.
Sure, some of the unbridled pessimism irritates me, but for the most part, it's informed pessimism and I will take all of the information I can. We live or die by our QB, and as such, he'll always be the large part of the conversation.

I agree with Vinny that there are a good number of things that Carr has done wrong since his rookie year that he continues to do wrong to this point. He continues to feel the footsteps of the men who are paid to put him on the ground. He continues to challenge deep when it's unwise, and he seems to have worse pocket presence (when he has a pocket) than most quarterbacks in the league. Even in the good year, there were times when I wanted to yell at the TV, "Step up and throw it!" and he would drop back and try to roll out and take a sack. However, a lot of the problems that kept him from being successful in previous years have been out of his hands.

Is it Carr's job to scheme away from the cover 2? Is it Carr's job to find an adequate second receiver? In the absence of a real offense, Carr did okay. I liked Dom Capers through the first three years of the team. Last year, he seemed to implode and it would have been a good idea to bring someone in on an interim basis and can Capers partway through. Pendry was a disaster who stunted Carr's growth beyond belief. I agree with a poster who said it was a ridiculous idea to have the o-line coach become the OC when it's mainly the o-line that's the problem.

Regardless, this year is a chance for us to grow from last year's learning experiences. I'm looking forward to seeing what Carr has for us. If he can't perform, after a suitable* period, I have confidence that the coaching staff will see that a change is made, and we will see a new franchise quarterback in the near future.

(* suitable being a measure determined by the coaching staff)

As a fan, I hope that the Texans do well. Whoever they throw out there, I hope that they succeed. I don't hold out a secret hope that Daniels and Putz will come in and lay eggs just because I want to see Joppru succeed. I want whoever the coaches think is the best to come in and destroy the competition.

Bickering over who the starters should be is off-season work. We're going into the season with the people Kubiak has chosen to carry his water. I'm behind whoever that is.

GO TEXANS!

Kaiser Toro
09-08-2006, 03:48 PM
I'm unlike a lot of you in that I like reading the Carr threads.
Sure, some of the unbridled pessimism irritates me, but for the most part, it's informed pessimism and I will take all of the information I can. We live or die by our QB, and as such, he'll always be the large part of the conversation.

I agree with Vinny that there are a good number of things that Carr has done wrong since his rookie year that he continues to do wrong to this point. He continues to feel the footsteps of the men who are paid to put him on the ground. He continues to challenge deep when it's unwise, and he seems to have worse pocket presence (when he has a pocket) than most quarterbacks in the league. Even in the good year, there were times when I wanted to yell at the TV, "Step up and throw it!" and he would drop back and try to roll out and take a sack. However, a lot of the problems that kept him from being successful in previous years have been out of his hands.

Is it Carr's job to scheme away from the cover 2? Is it Carr's job to find an adequate second receiver? In the absence of a real offense, Carr did okay. I liked Dom Capers through the first three years of the team. Last year, he seemed to implode and it would have been a good idea to bring someone in on an interim basis and can Capers partway through. Pendry was a disaster who stunted Carr's growth beyond belief. I agree with a poster who said it was a ridiculous idea to have the o-line coach become the OC when it's mainly the o-line that's the problem.

Regardless, this year is a chance for us to grow from last year's learning experiences. I'm looking forward to seeing what Carr has for us. If he can't perform, after a suitable* period, I have confidence that the coaching staff will see that a change is made, and we will see a new franchise quarterback in the near future.

(* suitable being a measure determined by the coaching staff)

As a fan, I hope that the Texans do well. Whoever they throw out there, I hope that they succeed. I don't hold out a secret hope that Daniels and Putz will come in and lay eggs just because I want to see Joppru succeed. I want whoever the coaches think is the best to come in and destroy the competition.

Bickering over who the starters should be is off-season work. We're going into the season with the people Kubiak has chosen to carry his water. I'm behind whoever that is.

GO TEXANS!

Well said from top to bottom.

CarrIsFine
09-08-2006, 06:48 PM
I just want to see Carr settle down and start throwing the deep ball more. He's got a cannon and it's getting rusty.

thunderkyss
09-08-2006, 07:44 PM
I cant wait to see how many people give carr a fair shake with the situation we have. for instance, when our rookie LT gets out of position and gives up a sack where carr runs out of bounds, who will be honest and blame spencer, or when lundy misses a blitz pickup and carr runs for his life how many will cry happy feet and blame carr for that too. dont get me wrong, if it's his fault its his fault. I just dont see too many on this board being honest and giving carr a fair shake. he will never get a fair shake on this team. at least not from the media and the "fans" on this board.

If he runs out of bounds, it's on him. Doesn't matter who missed what assignment. Outside the tackles, all he has to do is get the ball to the Line of Scrimmage. He can throw it away. If he picks up a yard, and go out of bounds, that's cool. but if he looses 3 inches, that's an unnecessary sack, that makes our line look worse than they are.

If David is in the pocket, and a defensive player gets t him, that's on Spencer, or Lundy, or whoever gets beat. Even if David could've stepped into the pocket to avoid the sack.

If David leaves the pocket, to the left..... and a player comes from the right to sack him, that belongs on the player who got beat.

If David leaves the pocket, to the left..... and because of him going to the left, there is no longer a Houston Texan between David and the defensive player(like one of the sacks from the Denver Preseason Game) Then that sack should be on David.

threetoedpete
09-09-2006, 01:01 AM
Only eleven pages you guys are slipping. Handed out some rep ready for the game. Goodnite all.

TexansLucky13
09-09-2006, 12:19 PM
Silly Carr thread. I need to start up a Texans Madden League so that we can vent some of this craziness.

20 of Carrs 208 sacks are his fault, eh? I would say that that is good odds considering he was running for his life for the majority of the time. Seriously, what did you expect? Or on another note... what is your point in making that argument? Just another potstir, IMHO. I think it has nothing to do with anything for this season. Kubiak will smack him hard if he does it this year, unlike Capers.

P.S. - My true reason for wanting a Madden league is so that I can destroy KT with David and have him with a 158.3 rating by the end of the game. :cool:

thunderkyss
09-09-2006, 01:48 PM
Silly Carr thread. I need to start up a Texans Madden League so that we can vent some of this craziness.

20 of Carrs 208 sacks are his fault, eh? I would say that that is good odds considering he was running for his life for the majority of the time. Seriously, what did you expect? Or on another note... what is your point in making that argument? Just another potstir, IMHO. I think it has nothing to do with anything for this season. Kubiak will smack him hard if he does it this year, unlike Capers.

P.S. - My true reason for wanting a Madden league is so that I can destroy KT with David and have him with a 158.3 rating by the end of the game. :cool:

20 of last years 68........ which I'm thinking is a very conservative number. but whatever. I think it's an important number since most people think our offensive line is our weekest position..... Knowing that David is more likely to sack himself, than burn the deep, it tends to make teams more agressive than they normally would be.

TexansFanatic
09-09-2006, 02:06 PM
The Texans have fixed 2 of the 3 problems with smart choices at HC and GM. Kubes is a local guy that could become our Cowher and hiring Smith as GM is a seemingly great move for our team in that he is skilled, knowledgeable, and young in addition to being a minority in the front office. But still we sit here with Carr at QB and there wasn't even competition in TC...that is the hand of McNair in my honest opinion...

I agree with this. It does seem like our straitlaced, milk drinking, all-American team owner could be a bit overprotective of his straitlaced, milk drinking, golden boy quarterback...