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texansfaninla
09-01-2006, 03:29 PM
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.

Tyr
09-01-2006, 03:32 PM
To the best of my knowledge, one has also had the luxury of playing only one position on the line, I could be wrong though. I honestly believe you would see more production from Mario at this stage if he wasn't being moved around a lot. Let's see where Mario is in 3-5 years.

hollywood_texan
09-01-2006, 03:34 PM
The thing about defensive lineman is what are their duties within the scheme.

Mario could have done everything that was expected of him.

Not all lineman are responsible getting sacks or even tackles. In all lot of 4-3 schemes, the lineman are responsible for tieing up the line to allow the linebackers to make plays.

I think you need to know what was expected of Mario first before you make your assessment.

When they expect him to get sacks and schemes are designed for that and he doesn't get them, then he hasn't performed.

Case in point, Steve McMichael of the Bears. Considered one of the best football players of all time and defensive tackle. But, Steve McMichael's job was to tie up the line to allow Mike Singletary get the glory. It worked great. And after retiring and watching game film, Singletary called McMichael and thanked him for all his work.

RiotCommander
09-01-2006, 03:35 PM
It could be because Kiwanuka is playing against the 3rd stringers. He is listed as a 3rd string player on their depth charts. I'm sure if we allowed Mario to go out there vs 2nd string O-Line he would have nice stats too.

texflex513
09-01-2006, 03:36 PM
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.

pretty good stats by kiwanuka for a rook....come back when the games count... or after both have had some meaningful playing time. Too early to tell right now whos better.

K.D.
09-01-2006, 03:38 PM
Playa, you must not have seen the Giants in preseason. The guy was pretty much playing against SCRUBS. He never once lined up against first teamers, put Mario in that situation and then holla back at me about his performance. I'm not even worried about MW, the guy is doing what's asked of him during the preseason, so ask this ? after a few games and him playing every down.

Dime
09-01-2006, 03:52 PM
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.

Wow.. the classic stupid statement of the week. You win!

Lets see.. One is on a team that didnt rank last in defense last year.. I wonder who that was. One has a good defense, and molded players. One cannot measure someone by thier play alone, but what he does to the others around him. In addition, he was even on the first team, but the THIRD team. Do me a favor and stop talking till you learn how the game is played.

quicksilver
09-01-2006, 03:55 PM
On what percentage of plays (against non-starters, mind you) was Kiwanuka double-teamed (I honestly don't know)? I haven't seen a single play this pre-season on which Mario was not double-teamed. Oh, except for the plays on which he was triple-teamed.

Honoring Earl 34
09-01-2006, 04:04 PM
texasfanila's agenda is to get a redo and draft Bush or VY .

phan1
09-01-2006, 04:33 PM
It could be because Kiwanuka is playing against the 3rd stringers. He is listed as a 3rd string player on their depth charts. I'm sure if we allowed Mario to go out there vs 2nd string O-Line he would have nice stats too.

Is this guy even a starter? If not, than I think we should stop talking.

AfricanCracker
09-01-2006, 04:49 PM
i dont think its a big deal, but its definitely worth bringing up... based on statistics alone, it looks like kiwanuka is a force, and mario is nothing special. mario has to produce more than he has thus far in his career.

Kaiser Toro
09-01-2006, 04:50 PM
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.

Now that you have convinced me, how do we get the world to spin in reverse on its axis and change the course of Texans' history? :superman:

Porky
09-01-2006, 04:53 PM
On what percentage of plays (against non-starters, mind you) was Kiwanuka double-teamed (I honestly don't know)? I haven't seen a single play this pre-season on which Mario was not double-teamed. Oh, except for the plays on which he was triple-teamed.

You weren't watching very closely then. There were numerous times he was in one on one situations.

WildBlackBear32
09-01-2006, 04:57 PM
I personally wanted Kiwanuka with the pick back in November(back when I figured we would be top 5, not #1. I'm happy with the Mario pick as well, but still to this day prefer Kiwi. It could be my BC bias, but I also think he is the more polished player and think they have similar upsides.

dirty steve
09-01-2006, 05:02 PM
You weren't watching very closely then. There were numerous times he was in one on one situations.

a Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

so were you for drafting vince or reggie?

what the poster was saying that he wasnt exclusively at the end position like kiwanuka is. take the garnet or burnt orange contacts out and you can read a little better.

concerning? it's four preseason games. on the back of the football cards that you still collect, you wont see 2006 preseason on them. give this thing a little time.

Divebomb
09-01-2006, 05:06 PM
WOW, I can't even believe we are compaing Mario to Kiwanuka. I have watched the Giants this offseason and kiwanuka has not played one down against the first team in any game. He mostly playes on the third string and many times he gets destroyed on running plays. There is no comparison.

The Preacher
09-01-2006, 05:29 PM
Bring this one back when kiwi actually plays in the regular season, if he ever does. I never understood why the Giants took this guy when they had two stud DE's. They had a chance at Demeco they'll likely regret that for the next decade. He may end up being their missing link. I guess they think Lavar is the answer. Too many personnel mistakes I gotta give that division to the other Texas team.

WildBlackBear32
09-01-2006, 05:40 PM
Bring this one back when kiwi actually plays in the regular season, if he ever does. I never understood why the Giants took this guy when they had two stud DE's. They had a chance at Demeco they'll likely regret that for the next decade. He may end up being their missing link. I guess they think Lavar is the answer. Too many personnel mistakes I gotta give that division to the other Texas team.

Because Strahan is going to be 35 years old. If Strahan is off the books in two years, you have a first round freak to put in his place and an extra 5+ mil to shore up another part of that team. Kiwi was a top 15 pick for a majority of the season and only fell because of a cheapshot from that scumbag Butler.

El Tejano
09-02-2006, 12:00 PM
The thing about defensive lineman is what are their duties within the scheme.

Mario could have done everything that was expected of him.

Not all lineman are responsible getting sacks or even tackles. In all lot of 4-3 schemes, the lineman are responsible for tieing up the line to allow the linebackers to make plays.

I think you need to know what was expected of Mario first before you make your assessment.


That sounds like the 3-4 to me.

TexanBacker93
09-02-2006, 12:07 PM
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.

Kiwanuka is playing with the 3rd team means he's playing against OLine guys that will be bouncers at strip clubs next week. He also saw a lot more time on the field. Let's see what happens when Mario actually gets to play a full game.

SmokingPiper
09-02-2006, 12:59 PM
one joined a very good defense while the other is asked to anchor a new defense. Big diference. Mario's influence on the oppositions play calling and blocking schemes is a key factor to the very good defense the Texans have displayed during pre-season games. Their is a lot of upside when the defense continues to improve as the season progresses. With the much improved defense and the players in the skill positions on offense we are in for one exciting season.

WildBlackBear32
09-02-2006, 01:23 PM
It's actually a good thread in thought. The way it was shown is a bit flawed. Going into last college football season, Kiwi was the sure fire #1 DE with Tamba Hali being #2. Mario started shooting up charts based on his size and good performances. Kiwi fell off the map after the Butler cheapshot because he played the next few games at probably 70%(Though against NC St later in the year, Kiwi absolutely blew by everyone on NC St while Mario looked average. I gave my impressions on page two of this thread http://www.houstontexans.com/fan_zone/messageboards/showthread.php?t=12990 ). Both players were physical freaks who were considered top 15 talent for a majority of their season, one slipped while the other shot way up.

BigDTexansFan
09-02-2006, 09:40 PM
texasfanila's agenda is to get a redo and draft Bush or VY .

NO I think he wants D'Brickashaw Ferguson on the redo....LMAO:shoot:

BigDTexansFan
09-02-2006, 09:42 PM
Kiwanuka is playing with the 3rd team means he's playing against OLine guys that will be bouncers at strip clubs next week. He also saw a lot more time on the field. Let's see what happens when Mario actually gets to play a full game.


Mario starting aginst #1 offensive Line, also Mario working of double teams allowing his teammates to get the glory:cowboy1:

thunderkyss
09-02-2006, 11:43 PM
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.

So what you are saying is that 30 teams other than the Texans passed on Kiwanuka(cool name.......... I wish my name was Kiwanuka)..... and the only team that wasted a Draft pick on him(a first at that) was a team with Michael Strahan & Osi Umenyiora??

So I guess that means we should have went out and got undrafted FA Mike Bell, right??

dat_boy_yec
09-02-2006, 11:59 PM
So what you are saying is that 30 teams other than the Texans passed on Kiwanuka(cool name.......... I wish my name was Kiwanuka)..... and the only team that wasted a Draft pick on him(a first at that) was a team with Michael Strahan & Osi Umenyiora??

So I guess that means we should have went out and got undrafted FA Mike Bell, right??

Mike Bell or Chris Taylor. I'm sorry, I missed the comparison there. Bell may have made a big impact on this team and we aren't exactly stacked @ the RB position. I wouldn't see anything wrong with getting Bell.

veazeyt
09-03-2006, 12:40 AM
It could be because Kiwanuka is playing against the 3rd stringers. He is listed as a 3rd string player on their depth charts. I'm sure if we allowed Mario to go out there vs 2nd string O-Line he would have nice stats too.


this is right on, in addition this guy is less likely to get as much attention as a mario williams. I dont doubt that the giants guy is good, I just think its a little early to be jumping to statistical based conclusions.

Even though the guy was playing 2nd 3rd stringers, he definitely was exciting to watch. Perhaps even more exciting when lines up opposite of strahan.

WildBlackBear32
09-03-2006, 01:19 AM
The knocks on Kiwi in this thread are funny.

People, Kiwi was ranked AHEAD of Mario for the majority of last season. He only slipped because a player took a pathetic cheapshot at his knee, which he played through for the rest of the season. He rose up a bit again towards the end of the season, but he tweaked an injury at the senior bowl and was unimpressive. He is just as tall as Mario, with close to the same speed. The knock on him was he was thin, which he promptly added 8-10lbs to his frame already. I don't see why everyone is bringing up the Giants as an excuse to knock him based on their depth. It actually says MORE about his talent, since they decided to take a player at a position they were more than comfortable at.

wicked_wayz
09-03-2006, 03:17 AM
To the best of my knowledge, one has also had the luxury of playing only one position on the line, I could be wrong though. I honestly believe you would see more production from Mario at this stage if he wasn't being moved around a lot. Let's see where Mario is in 3-5 years.

3-5 years is a bit too long for my liking....they said mario was a better prospect coming out of college than julius peppers and peppers piled up 10-14 sacks or something in the reg season........i got high expectation of mario this year

....

texansfaninla
09-03-2006, 04:21 AM
You should have high expectations of the No. 1 overall pick this year. Waiting 3-5 years to develop a defensive player (especially one that you're paying $54 million to) in the free agency era is just stupid.

We'll find out Sunday how Mario looks "in regular season mode". Everyone says he's been holding back. Kiwanuka certainly hasn't been.

Grid
09-03-2006, 06:36 AM
im not gonna make excuses for Mario.

All im gonna say is that maybe...just maybe... it takes more than 4 preseason games to fully judge the worth of a player.

Mathis Kiwanuka may be a future hall of famer..or he may never be as good as he was this preseason. Same for Mario...same for any other rookie this year.

The only thing i know for certain is that chastising mario for not coming in and immediatly being the best player on our defense is both stupid, and annoying.. and yall need to cut it out.

Maddict5
09-03-2006, 07:21 AM
this reminds me of demarcus ware v shawn merriman last year...ware was a first ballot pre-season HoFer (thank you infantryak if i remember right) but by the end of the year it was clear merriman was the better player...not saying this will happen to mario and kiwi but people shouldn't jump too much on pre-season stats

brewhaus
09-03-2006, 09:53 AM
Does Kiwanuka move from spot to spot like Mario?
It was like the coaches weren't sure they wanted him on the end.

thunderkyss
09-03-2006, 11:28 AM
The knocks on Kiwi in this thread are funny.

People, Kiwi was ranked AHEAD of Mario for the majority of last season. He only slipped because a player took a pathetic cheapshot at his knee, which he played through for the rest of the season. He rose up a bit again towards the end of the season, but he tweaked an injury at the senior bowl and was unimpressive. He is just as tall as Mario, with close to the same speed. The knock on him was he was thin, which he promptly added 8-10lbs to his frame already. I don't see why everyone is bringing up the Giants as an excuse to knock him based on their depth. It actually says MORE about his talent, since they decided to take a player at a position they were more than comfortable at.

There aren't any knocks on Kiwanuka(that's a cool name........ I wish my name was Kiwanuka)........ nobody doubts his talent, or his potential. We're all just acknowledging the fact that he's playing 2s & 3s, and he's got All-Pro players all around him, to help him look better.

It's a different situation with Mario. He's playing the 1st team, and we are hoping he is the guy to make the rest of our players look good.

3-5 years is a bit too long for my liking....they said mario was a better prospect coming out of college than julius peppers and peppers piled up 10-14 sacks or something in the reg season........i got high expectation of mario this year

....

I'm with you. If we are going to say this guy is a better prospect than JP, then we should expect him to perform as well, if not better.

But we also must recognize that we are asking him to do a lot more than JP, so his stats might be lower.

Mike Bell or Chris Taylor. I'm sorry, I missed the comparison there. Bell may have made a big impact on this team and we aren't exactly stacked @ the RB position. I wouldn't see anything wrong with getting Bell.

Fans dream of finding that guy in the draft, UDFAs, and what not. There are probably fans of 30 different teams thinking, "............. man we should've picked up MikeBell." But the fact is that Mike Bell could've gone anywhere else, and chances are he wouldn't have got the opportunity that he did in Denver. Most coaches wouldn't have seen what Shanahan saw.

A lot of things have to happen for a particular player to have success with a particular team.

Kiwanuka having success in NewYork.(when they already have a top 5 defense) IMHO is about the same as MikeBell being successful in Denver..( a top 5 rushing team). & neither can be compared to Mario here(last in defense) or NewOrleans.

Second Honeymoon
09-03-2006, 11:32 AM
The thing about defensive lineman is what are their duties within the scheme.

Mario could have done everything that was expected of him.

Not all lineman are responsible getting sacks or even tackles. In all lot of 4-3 schemes, the lineman are responsible for tieing up the line to allow the linebackers to make plays.

I think you need to know what was expected of Mario first before you make your assessment.

When they expect him to get sacks and schemes are designed for that and he doesn't get them, then he hasn't performed.

Case in point, Steve McMichael of the Bears. Considered one of the best football players of all time and defensive tackle. But, Steve McMichael's job was to tie up the line to allow Mike Singletary get the glory. It worked great. And after retiring and watching game film, Singletary called McMichael and thanked him for all his work.

Sounds like the apologists are out in force for Mario as well as Carr. Mario has looked average to good but hardly like a No.1 Overall pick, but as we have seen in the past 4+ years, it doesnt matter in Houston. All these homers will still make excuses just like they continue to do so for David Carr.

doug ftw

dtran04
09-03-2006, 11:42 AM
Well it's been decided. Mario Williams, Reggie Bush, and Vince Young will all be busts in the NFL. The expert conclusions reached by four preseason games carry throughout their careers. Kiwi, Lundy, and Cutler will outperform them by leaps and bounds.

Roughnecks
09-03-2006, 11:57 AM
Why are be even doing this the Carr vs Sage talk has slowed down so now lets dump om Mario. Mario was a top 5 pick plain and simple and I would wont a guy with no injury's compared to someone who slip because he had one. Lets stop tearing down our own players every chance we get this guy has been told he is not wanted since we drafted him. What happens if he goes crazy and just starts killing QB and RB and is one of the best in league and gets a chance to become a free agent and leaves who would blame him. Some of us know this game but not to the point that we should be working in the front office of a NFL team. I can not wait until this guy is tearing it up and I can sit back and read how everybody just knew this guy is the man and never said any thing bad about him. I for one was one of the few who wanted to draft Super Mario, I would like to have traded down to get him but if we could but seeing that we couldn't oh well I am happy about it regardless. Here is to hoping Super Mario can find that flower power and start throwing fireballs at QB's.:fireball:

dat_boy_yec
09-03-2006, 12:05 PM
Fans dream of finding that guy in the draft, UDFAs, and what not. There are probably fans of 30 different teams thinking, "............. man we should've picked up MikeBell." But the fact is that Mike Bell could've gone anywhere else, and chances are he wouldn't have got the opportunity that he did in Denver. Most coaches wouldn't have seen what Shanahan saw.

A lot of things have to happen for a particular player to have success with a particular team.

Kiwanuka having success in NewYork.(when they already have a top 5 defense) IMHO is about the same as MikeBell being successful in Denver..( a top 5 rushing team). & neither can be compared to Mario here(last in defense) or NewOrleans.

Alright I get you now, that was well put. Thanx for clearing that up. I still think Bell would have had a good shot here in Houston though.

texansfaninla
09-03-2006, 12:22 PM
Secondhoneymoon...I agree with you completely. Stop making excuses for Mario's underwhelming performances.

Brandon420tx
09-03-2006, 12:26 PM
Secondhoneymoon...I agree with you completely. Stop making excuses for Mario's underwhelming performances.

Its funny how you always agree with him and vice versa, its like your one mind!, slightly deranged, but one mind nonetheless.

A 3rd string O-lineman could totally manhandle me (5-8 129lbs), but does that mean he should be the starter because he can play better against inferior opponents?

bigTEXan8
09-03-2006, 12:27 PM
The thing with Mathias is that if he does play regulary during the season, he's going to have Strahan and ... I forgot who else working the other side of the line, so to say that Mathias's pre-season stats are more impressive than Mario's doesn't really hold a lot of value. Mario will be fine, and will contend for DROY.

Dr. Toro
09-03-2006, 12:35 PM
Mario's dominance won't just be reflected in individual stats... it will be reflected in the performance of the D-Line and defense overall. The point of Mario is drawing two blockers, stuffing the run, and getting sacks. He's the point man for everything... if he's as good as he's made out to be, the interior should thrive and the linebackers should be freed up to make plays, pressure will be put on the QB and the DBs won't be hung out to dry. Yes, he's expected to put up double digit sacks... and the better the defense plays, the more 3rd and longs the opposition faces and the more opportunities Mario, Peek, et al. will have to tee off. Individual stat-lines won't tell the truth on a game-by-game basis, final scores and total D stats should.

TK_Gamer
09-03-2006, 12:53 PM
personally I think mario will prolly get bout 6 to 9 sacks if he shifts around , about 8 to 13 sacks if he plays the outside, next year the numbers will virtually double. but im just a fan. what do I know

LBC_Justin
09-03-2006, 02:02 PM
Ok i will be the first to tell you that stats don't always mean everything, especially in football, but I think the measurables at the combine are very telling about these two players.

Mathias Kiwanuka
Height - 6'5 1/2
Weight - 266
Bench press - 17
Vertical - 32.9
Broadjump - 10.0
run time 10 yd - 1.63
run time 20 yd - 2.79
run time 30 yd - 4.74
Short Shuttle 20yd - 4.13
Short Shuttle 60yd - 11.65
3 cone - 7.27

Mario Williams
Height - 6'7
Weight - 295
Bench press - 35
Vertical - 40.5
Broadjump - 10.0
run time 10 yd - 1.59
run time 20 yd - 2.75
run time 30 yd - 4.73
Short Shuttle 20yd - 4.36
Short Shuttle 60yd - DNR
3 cone - 7.19

Mario is 30 pounds heavier, bench pressed over twice as many times, is faster or at the minimum just as fast, can jump 20% higher, is taller and has longer arms.

Mathias Kiwanuka was one of the weakest at the bench press of all DE in the draft. I think this made his stock drop fast.

Mathias Kiwanuka needs to be a very smart player and play with great technique because he does not possess the same physical gift that Mario has. I think both guys will be good, and I like Kiwi, but look for Mario to be a freak.

rmartin65
09-03-2006, 02:04 PM
The thing is, measurables dont mean everything. I like the Mario pick, I am glad we took him, but how well they do at the combine does not mean everything. It is how they play the game.

Vinny
09-03-2006, 02:18 PM
I hate to say it but Mario hasn't impressed me much this preseason once I look past stuff like "measurables". Carr has every measurable also, but look what that's done for him in 60 NFL starts.....

So far I'm not all that excited, but I'm behind the pick and hope for the best. Workout stats and drafting for 'need' at the top of the draft is not something I'm fond of myself....we shall see how this pans out long term.

LBC_Justin
09-03-2006, 02:19 PM
The thing is, measurables dont mean everything. I like the Mario pick, I am glad we took him, but how well they do at the combine does not mean everything. It is how they play the game.Your right they don't mean everything but in this case they are telling.

Kiwi is not super strong. He isn't going to overpower lineman.

Heck on the bench press he is much weaker than Reggie Bush...who at the time only weighed 200 pounds.

Vinny
09-03-2006, 02:21 PM
The bench press is probably the most overrated measurable ever. Having nice triceps and good delts or short arms will make you a big bencher. Trunk strength is much more important.

TK_Gamer
09-03-2006, 02:24 PM
football is a game of leverage and drive with the legs, bench press prolly helps an offensive lineman in pass blocking more than anything

rmartin65
09-03-2006, 02:25 PM
Your right they don't mean everything but in this case they are telling.

Kiwi is not super strong. He isn't going to overpower lineman.

Heck on the bench press he is much weaker than Reggie Bush...who at the time only weighed 200 pounds.
Lots of players have insane measurables, but only a few make it into the NFL. Strength is important, but some guys can get around being weaker than average. Acceleration and smarts also have alot to do with beating the OL. Mario is the better pick. I believe he will have a better career than Kiwi.

All I am trying to say is people seem to inflate the combine workouts. Bush is a pretty good example. He flew at the combine, and was strong. But he has not done as well as other backs with less impressive workouts(Lundy, for example).

Vinny
09-03-2006, 02:30 PM
Lots of players have insane measurables, but only a few make it into the NFL. Strength is important, but some guys can get around being weaker than average. Acceleration and smarts also have alot to do with beating the OL. Mario is the better pick. I believe he will have a better career than Kiwi.

All I am trying to say is people seem to inflate the combine workouts. Bush is a pretty good example. He flew at the combine, and was strong. But he has not done as well as other backs with less impressive workouts(Lundy, for example).
yep...If all it took was strength you would see a ton of powerlifters in the NFL...if all it took was speed you would see a ton of track and field greats in the NFL, but we see a few...but not many....something to ponder ya think?

Wolf
09-03-2006, 02:33 PM
I can't believe yall are comparing these two..

We are asking Mario to become the Michael Strahan of the Texans where Kiiwanuka has to just be a role player right now and work off of Strahan and Osi Umenyiara with william joseph at Dt..

Heck Mathias isn't even playing against the starters.

Unbelieveable.

and yes Mario hasn't provided stats in preseason, I am willing to wait and see when it really is time to "get after it" and go from there

LBC_Justin
09-03-2006, 02:35 PM
The bench press is probably the most overrated measurable ever.
I agree but if there was a postion that Bench press mattered it is for Linemen who use their upperbody strength on every play. Being 266 pounds and wanting to be a stud DE in the National Football League and only benching 225 pounds 17 times. That is a big Red Flag. 17 times, that is very very low.

Combine that with a below average Vertical Jump, which many scouts believe is a key component of explosiveness.

I am not saying he isn't going to be a good player, but lets not even act like he would have been a logical pick before Mario Williams, which is what the first post in this topic is putting up for debate.

Vinny
09-03-2006, 02:46 PM
I disagree with that as NFL strength coaches do not put that much weight or value on what a guy can bench press...take it fwiw

LBC_Justin
09-03-2006, 02:49 PM
yep...If all it took was strength you would see a ton of powerlifters in the NFL...if all it took was speed you would see a ton of track and field greats in the NFL, but we see a few...but not many....something to ponder ya think?
If all it took was heart, then that guy from the Movie "Rudy" would be a star in the NFL.
If all it took was technique then Jerry Rice would still be the best WR in football.
If all it took was brains then the Patriots would just send Coach Bill out on the field and wouldn't have even needed Tom Brady.
If all it took was confidence then Muhammad Ali would be our QB.
If all it took was instinct, then guys like Elway and Montana would still be starters instead of owning Car dealerships.

But for some strange reason all the O-line men now weight around 300 pounds, and the wide recievers and defensive backs are superfast and can jump high.

.....wait a second. Maybe physical characteristics, and measurables are somewhat important.

Vinny
09-03-2006, 03:01 PM
If all it took was heart, then that guy from the Movie "Rudy" would be a star in the NFL.
If all it took was technique then Jerry Rice would still be the best WR in football.
If all it took was brains then the Patriots would just send Coach Bill out on the field and wouldn't have even needed Tom Brady.
If all it took was confidence then Muhammad Ali would be our QB.
If all it took was instinct, then guys like Elway and Montana would still be starters instead of owning Car dealerships.

But for some strange reason all the O-line men now weight around 300 pounds, and the wide recievers and defensive backs are superfast and can jump high.

.....wait a second. Maybe physical characteristics, and measurables are somewhat important.
well duh, it's not like I can't think in anything but extremes. I'm just pointing out that finding good players is much more complex than looking for the strongest guys or the fastest guys. I'm not sure you really figured out what my point was.

bigTEXan8
09-03-2006, 03:28 PM
The bench press is probably the most overrated measurable ever. Having nice triceps and good delts or short arms will make you a big bencher. Trunk strength is much more important.

yeah...but the ladies likie the triceps, biceps, and delts. they don't go "ooohh...damn!!! look at that trunk strength" just playin'!!

rmartin65
09-03-2006, 03:43 PM
If all it took was heart, then that guy from the Movie "Rudy" would be a star in the NFL.
If all it took was technique then Jerry Rice would still be the best WR in football.
If all it took was brains then the Patriots would just send Coach Bill out on the field and wouldn't have even needed Tom Brady.
If all it took was confidence then Muhammad Ali would be our QB.
If all it took was instinct, then guys like Elway and Montana would still be starters instead of owning Car dealerships.

But for some strange reason all the O-line men now weight around 300 pounds, and the wide recievers and defensive backs are superfast and can jump high.

.....wait a second. Maybe physical characteristics, and measurables are somewhat important.
I like how you take the extremes. Of course physical attributes are important. But it is a combination of all the stuff that make elite players. Thats why elite athletes are so rare.

TexanStatGuru
09-03-2006, 05:26 PM
Ummm....also try comparing apples to apples. Kiwanuka played one game that M.Williams sat and he did not play even one whole quarter against the opponents 1s. All he did was play against 2s and 3s. Gimme a break.

HeartofHouston
09-03-2006, 08:07 PM
like it was stated some people's responbilities are different in the defense. Some people are meant to pin their ears back and some people are meant to take up blockers and free other people up around them and some people are meant to do both. It just all depends on your Coaches.

So I wouldnt look into this too much and beside as stated b4 Kiwi has been against 2s and 3s while Mario gets the ones and his time is often shorten cause he's a starter and we want to keep him healthy..

thunderkyss
09-03-2006, 10:33 PM
personally I think mario will prolly get bout 6 to 9 sacks if he shifts around , about 8 to 13 sacks if he plays the outside, next year the numbers will virtually double. but im just a fan. what do I know

There was one play against StL, with Weaver playing DT, and Peek on the weakside DE.

It was kinda like a stunt. Peek(who looks a lot bigger than 270lbs) gets a great jump off the ball & crashes the LT into the LG........ Weaver comes around & runs through the Tailback as he drops a hammer on MarcBulger.....

it wasn't a sack(Bulger got rid of the ball quick) but Dunta got burnt, and if it wasn't for the hurried throw, it would have been 6 for StL.


This has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

thunderkyss
09-03-2006, 10:40 PM
The bench press is probably the most overrated measurable ever. Having nice triceps and good delts or short arms will make you a big bencher. Trunk strength is much more important.

I'm not arguing with you...... but did you see. In the Denver game, there was a tightend...... #88. One on one, he'd lock up with Mario, and he stayed in front of Mario for the whole play.

Then Babin got chest to chest with him, and blew him up with is arms(a bench press move) knocked 'ole 88 back two or three steps, then moved on to the Tailback.

The Pencil Neck
09-03-2006, 11:00 PM
I'm not arguing with you...... but did you see. In the Denver game, there was a tightend...... #88. One on one, he'd lock up with Mario, and he stayed in front of Mario for the whole play.

Then Babin got chest to chest with him, and blew him up with is arms(a bench press move) knocked 'ole 88 back two or three steps, then moved on to the Tailback.

TANGENT WARNING:
I used to train with the Air Force strength coach from back in the early 90's when they had that dominating rushing attack. Although it's definitely not entirely responsible for their success, he shifted the strength training emphasis for linemen from bench press to incline bench press. His theory was that linemen generally don't interact with each other in the same plane as the straight bench press and that the incline bench more closely mimics the motions made during the game.

When he got to Air Force, none of their linemen could incline bench more than 300#; when they were at their peak, most if not all of them could incline bench 325#.

BACK ON POINT WARNING:
I thought that Mario had some pretty good bench numbers? About 35 or so with 225? If that's right, I doubt that Babin had better. I think this would be an example of gym strength not being translated to game strength.

Although this could also be an example of type of training. If you've been "bodybuilding" training, then you've probably been doing relatively slow reps for lots of reps instead of training acceleration/speed strength. It might be that Mario has been training slow instead of working on acceleration and so he doesn't have that "pop" that comes from working on speed strength.

Hookem Horns
09-03-2006, 11:58 PM
Couldn't a similar thread be made comparing Lundy's preseason stats to Bush's? I am sure one has already been made however I am pretty sure that Lundy has much better stats. So are we ready to say the Saints missed out by not drafting Lundy over Bush?

Wolf
09-04-2006, 12:10 AM
Couldn't a similar thread be made comparing Lundy's preseason stats to Bush's? I am sure one has already been made however I am pretty sure that Lundy has much better stats. So are we ready to say the Saints missed out by not drafting Lundy over Bush?

oh yeah, it is in the NFL section titled "bush lighting it up again" or something like that.

Honoring Earl 34
09-04-2006, 12:44 AM
Its funny cause I looked at Babin as a non explosive player until this year . Why you ask is Babin an explosive player now ... well he playing his natural position and not thinking and reading . I bet Mario is still thinking , give him some time .

HeartofHouston
09-04-2006, 03:04 AM
also he's mostly playing first halfs of preseason games think about what he could possible do when it's 4th quarter and we're up and our defense is more of attack mode and can rush the QB that's dropping back for a pass.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
09-04-2006, 06:52 AM
You should have high expectations of the No. 1 overall pick this year. Waiting 3-5 years to develop a defensive player (especially one that you're paying $54 million to) in the free agency era is just stupid.

We'll find out Sunday how Mario looks "in regular season mode". Everyone says he's been holding back. Kiwanuka certainly hasn't been.

But if Mario gets only 4 sacks this year, 7 the next, and 10 the third. Will it still be "stupid" in the era of free agency? Yes, I know you want it NOW. But ya know? There's that post about getting the "world to spin in reverse on its axis and change the course of Texans' history." We could try that.

Hey, Dexter McCleon got 7 tackles in pre-season! Therefor, I shall anoint him "better" than Mario. :rolleyes:

Ye Olde Pro
09-04-2006, 09:15 AM
You can always tell when a post is written by somebody who has never played a down!

Without casting any stones, let me 'splain somthin' to you Lucy.

What this staff has done with Mario this pre season is give him a Crash Course in the NFL! IF, you had been paying attention.......you would have noticed that Mario is been switched around situationally! I know I'm sorry for the big words, but I get pissed sometimes.

This is a solid kid. And will be, a major league player for a very long time in this league. The guy has a Howie Long kind of motor that will not quit! Under the circumstances, I believe that he has played very well. And has shown the staff exactly what they wanted to see. What is that??? Can he play against different schemes and react to things like pulling guards and o lone stunts like block downs.

HEY WHINNERS!!! FORGET REGGIE BUSH!! FORGET VINCE YOUNG!!!
THIS IS YOUR FOOTBALL TEAM!!! Get behind it! And get behind Mario Williams! You won't be sorry.

texansfaninla
09-04-2006, 11:15 AM
He sure didn't have a "Howie Long motor that just won't quit" in college. He even got benched as started for a game last year.

And as for all this "look at his combine numbers"...jeez, people. How many times does it have to be proven that "a good combine doth not a great NFL player make"? The guy was a top 10 pick before the combine. Then all of a sudden, based on physical attributes and nothing else, he jumped to No. 1 overall? Brilliant. :brickwall

Honoring Earl 34
09-04-2006, 11:19 AM
He sure didn't have a "Howie Long motor that just won't quit" in college. He even got benched as started for a game last year.

And as for all this "look at his combine numbers"...jeez, people. How many times does it have to be proven that "a good combine doth not a great NFL player make"? The guy was a top 10 pick before the combine. Then all of a sudden, based on physical attributes and nothing else, he jumped to No. 1 overall? Brilliant. :brickwall
Regie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Reggie Jackson .

chuckm
09-04-2006, 12:21 PM
You can always tell when a post is written by somebody who has never played a down!

Without casting any stones, let me 'splain somthin' to you Lucy.

What this staff has done with Mario this pre season is give him a Crash Course in the NFL! IF, you had been paying attention.......you would have noticed that Mario is been switched around situationally! I know I'm sorry for the big words, but I get pissed sometimes.

This is a solid kid. And will be, a major league player for a very long time in this league. The guy has a Howie Long kind of motor that will not quit! Under the circumstances, I believe that he has played very well. And has shown the staff exactly what they wanted to see. What is that??? Can he play against different schemes and react to things like pulling guards and o lone stunts like block downs.

HEY WHINNERS!!! FORGET REGGIE BUSH!! FORGET VINCE YOUNG!!!
THIS IS YOUR FOOTBALL TEAM!!! Get behind it! And get behind Mario Williams! You won't be sorry.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Ye Olde Pro again.

Erratic Assassin
09-04-2006, 12:46 PM
Mathias Kiwanuka
Height - 6'5 1/2
Weight - 266
Bench press - 17
Vertical - 32.9
Broadjump - 10.0
run time 10 yd - 1.63
run time 20 yd - 2.79
run time 30 yd - 4.74
Short Shuttle 20yd - 4.13
Short Shuttle 60yd - 11.65
3 cone - 7.27

Mario Williams
Height - 6'7
Weight - 295
Bench press - 35
Vertical - 40.5
Broadjump - 10.0
run time 10 yd - 1.59
run time 20 yd - 2.75
run time 30 yd - 4.73
Short Shuttle 20yd - 4.36
Short Shuttle 60yd - DNR
3 cone - 7.19

Mario Williams is a workout warrior, which doesn't always translate into being a great football player.

Demeco Ryans doesn't have any of the measurables, but he gets results and that's what really matters.

Honoring Earl 34
09-04-2006, 12:49 PM
Dang ... Cutler had 23 reps on the bench . Mathias better hit the weights .

Ye Olde Pro
09-04-2006, 01:41 PM
Perhaps all these stats are true. But from all reports, the kid is coachable, and that goes a long way when you consider his physical attributes and talent. Stas do not equate to performance. We all know that.

And neither do Heisman trophy's. There is a long list of Heisman busts. We'll see where Bush shakes out in all this. But I still believe that he won't be nearly as effective against NFL talent, just as his performances in college tended to dwindle when they faced quality defenses.

I'll stick with the Williams pick. And if Kubiak can shoot some adenaline in T Johnsons butt, we may have one hell of an Defensive line!

The Pencil Neck
09-04-2006, 01:44 PM
He sure didn't have a "Howie Long motor that just won't quit" in college. He even got benched as started for a game last year.

And as for all this "look at his combine numbers"...jeez, people. How many times does it have to be proven that "a good combine doth not a great NFL player make"? The guy was a top 10 pick before the combine. Then all of a sudden, based on physical attributes and nothing else, he jumped to No. 1 overall? Brilliant. :brickwall

We've been all through this.

He got benched along with the whole defense. It's not like he wasn't performing and got benched or he had done something that he personally was being disciplined for. Jeez.

And what exactly do you want this kid to do in college to prove to you that he should be taken #1? How about 13 sacks in a season? OK. Did that. How about 20 tackles for losses? OK. Did that. How about being so dominating that teams doubled and tripled him all season long and ran away from him? OK, did that.

Does the fact that he was #1 or #2 on most draft boards have any weight whatsoever?

The Pencil Neck
09-04-2006, 01:48 PM
Mario Williams is a workout warrior, which doesn't always translate into being a great football player.

Demeco Ryans doesn't have any of the measurables, but he gets results and that's what really matters.

WTH are you talking about? Where is this workout warrior crap coming from?

What more could he have done in college? This guy produced where it counts, on the field. He had people running away from him all year. He doesn't quit. The highlight reel for his college last year was Mario coming all the way around the far side and running down a running back from behind. This guy had the sacks and the tackles for losses and all that even though most teams were doubling him AND running the other direction.

The guy is a player.

Honoring Earl 34
09-04-2006, 02:05 PM
Mario Williams is a workout warrior, which doesn't always translate into being a great football player.

Demeco Ryans doesn't have any of the measurables, but he gets results and that's what really matters.
You look at the numbers as a ceiling . If Mario ran a 5.2 forty , he has a lower ceiling . Jordan had a great vertical , Elway had a great arm , Munoz was so athletic he once pitched for the USC baseball team . This is upside potentiel ... its a way of dividing players .

Mario was not only a workout warrior he was of the chart . They measure explosive lineman by adding the reps of the benchpress , the broadjump , and the vertical . The watermark number is 70 ... anything over that is an explosive athelete . Mario had an 85.5 which is the highest ever I believe . Mathias has a 59.9 , does'nt prove anything except who's got a higher ceiling .

LBC_Justin
09-04-2006, 02:48 PM
He sure didn't have a "Howie Long motor that just won't quit" in college. He even got benched as started for a game last year.

And as for all this "look at his combine numbers"...jeez, people. How many times does it have to be proven that "a good combine doth not a great NFL player make"? The guy was a top 10 pick before the combine. Then all of a sudden, based on physical attributes and nothing else, he jumped to No. 1 overall? Brilliant. :brickwall
He was not benched for his motor.

He violated a team rule or something so they followed their team policy and they didn't start him.

LBC_Justin
09-04-2006, 02:58 PM
Mario Williams is a workout warrior, which doesn't always translate into being a great football player.

Demeco Ryans doesn't have any of the measurables, but he gets results and that's what really matters.
Actually Demeco Ryans has GREAT measurables. Have you seen them?! They aren't that different from AJ Hawks. Very similar in fact.

Don't believe every BS scouting report you read. Sometimes it pays to look at the numbers and watch the film yourself.

You know what two guys last year were known as "Workout warriors"....DeMarcus Ware and Shawne Merriman. We all know how that turned out. They were both absolute Monsters last year.

Erratic Assassin
09-04-2006, 03:03 PM
WTH are you talking about? Where is this workout warrior crap coming from?

What more could he have done in college? This guy produced where it counts, on the field. He doesn't quit. The highlight reel for his college last year...

Take a pill.

Workout warrior means he has all the measurables. Unfortunately he doesn't get paid to do cone drills.

As far as his accomplishments on the field Mario has a lot to prove. He wasn't known as a high motor guy in college, so I don't know where you get the idea that "he doesn't quit." They couldn't even get him started the first half of the season. He had a good half-season at USC.

Mario benefitted greatly from having 6'5", 240 lb sack machine Manny Lawson (who runs a 4.48) as a teammate providing huge mismatches for opponents. He doesn't have that luxury anymore.

You can't evaluate a player on the highlight reel. I could make a highlight reel of Moochie Norris that would leave you with the impression that he never missed a shot.

The Pencil Neck
09-04-2006, 03:34 PM
Take a pill.

Workout warrior means he has all the measurables. Unfortunately he doesn't get paid to do cone drills.


You've already taken the pill. If you think that the only reason that Mario was drafted high was because of how he performed at the combine, then you're on drugs and need to stop taking those pills.

Workout warrior doesn't mean "he has all the measurables." Workout warrior means he ONLY has measurables and that he can't produce on the field.

Mario has produced on the field. Therefore, he's not a workout warrior.

Honoring Earl 34
09-04-2006, 04:12 PM
Mario benefitted greatly from having 6'5", 240 lb sack machine Manny Lawson (who runs a 4.48) as a teammate providing huge mismatches for opponents. He doesn't have that luxury anymore .

So Mario benefitted from Manny ... Then why did'nt Manny go 1st ?

The Pencil Neck
09-04-2006, 04:17 PM
Mario benefitted greatly from having 6'5", 240 lb sack machine Manny Lawson (who runs a 4.48) as a teammate providing huge mismatches for opponents. He doesn't have that luxury anymore .

So Mario benefitted from Manny ... Then why did'nt Manny go 1st ?

Also, Manny has said that it was the other way around. Manny benefitted from teams doubling Mario and running away from Mario.

CaptainPatriot
09-04-2006, 07:41 PM
I watched the PATS vs Giants Game last night(Thanks to TIVO).Kiwanuka was going against a OT that was a 3rd stringer and he wasn`t being double teamed from what I saw

thunderkyss
09-04-2006, 10:53 PM
He sure didn't have a "Howie Long motor that just won't quit" in college. He even got benched as started for a game last year.

And as for all this "look at his combine numbers"...jeez, people. How many times does it have to be proven that "a good combine doth not a great NFL player make"? The guy was a top 10 pick before the combine. Then all of a sudden, based on physical attributes and nothing else, he jumped to No. 1 overall? Brilliant. :brickwall

Never before in the history of the NFL draft, has a running back been taken with the #1 overall, that hasn't proven he can run between the tackles.

Never before in the history of the NFL draft, has a running back been taken with the #1 overall, that hasn't proven that he can carry the ball 20-to-30 times a game.

Even the best running back of recent times has not been taken with the #1 overall. Not LT(who is as good as anyone can expect Reggie to be), not RonnieBrown(who a lot of people believe is better than Reggie Bush), not RickyWilliams or Ron Dayne (who has proven they can run between the tackles, and carry the load for their teams.)

There were a lot of things that would have to be over looked to pick Reggie with the #1 overall. His size, the fact that he wasn't the best running back on his team, the fact that he wasn't the best reciever on his team. The fact that he didn't run between the tackles. The fact that he rarely carried the ball more than 15 times a game.

And even after all that, we were still going to take him with the #1 overall. We agreed to a deal with him. All we had to do, was get him to sign on the dotted line, and answer a few questions about a certain NCAA fair competition violations.

But............... we can only overlook so much.

Brandon420tx
09-05-2006, 12:58 AM
Take a pill.

Workout warrior means he has all the measurables. Unfortunately he doesn't get paid to do cone drills.

As far as his accomplishments on the field Mario has a lot to prove. He wasn't known as a high motor guy in college, so I don't know where you get the idea that "he doesn't quit." They couldn't even get him started the first half of the season. He had a good half-season at USC.

Mario benefitted greatly from having 6'5", 240 lb sack machine Manny Lawson (who runs a 4.48) as a teammate providing huge mismatches for opponents. He doesn't have that luxury anymore.

You can't evaluate a player on the highlight reel. I could make a highlight reel of Moochie Norris that would leave you with the impression that he never missed a shot.

umm... no comment.

Edit: Fine, I'll comment. It looks like you have mixed up your ESPN propaganda.

Sco-tai
09-05-2006, 01:05 AM
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.

** shakes head **

Yeah...let's see what Mario would do lined up against an O-line with STRAHAN on the other end! (That's ASSUMING HE DID ANY PLAYS with the 1st team).

Go play in traffic.

Thank you.

:hunter:

TexanFanInCC
09-05-2006, 03:52 AM
WOW, I can't even believe we are compaing Mario to Kiwanuka. I have watched the Giants this offseason and kiwanuka has not played one down against the first team in any game. He mostly playes on the third string and many times he gets destroyed on running plays. There is no comparison.

i agree. besides, how many double and triple teams does this Kiwanuka draw? i know mario is consistently being doubled.

real
09-05-2006, 09:12 AM
i agree. besides, how many double and triple teams does this Kiwanuka draw? i know mario is consistently being doubled.

Thats not true either....

TheOgre
09-05-2006, 09:24 AM
Here's an interesting (and concerning) breakdown of the preseason stats of Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd overall by the NY Giants) and Mario Williams (1st overall, Houston):

Kiwanuka - 7 tackles, 3 assists, 3.5 sacks, 1 forced fumble, 1 interception
Williams - 3 tackles, 1 assist

One is playing like a No. 1 overall pick. And it ain't Mario.

You know, Rick Mirer was a ROY in the NFL. Don't let early success or early failure mislead you.

texansfaninla
09-05-2006, 10:49 AM
And let's see what Mario can do without Manny Lawson (and the other NC State defensive lineman who also was picked in the first round) on the other side of him.

real
09-05-2006, 10:53 AM
And let's see what Mario can do without Manny Lawson (and the other NC State defensive lineman who also was picked in the first round) on the other side of him.

Better yet....let's see what those two do without Mario Williams....

LBC_Justin
09-05-2006, 11:01 AM
Better yet....let's see what those two do without Mario Williams....
AGREED.

I have family in North Carolina and most of the local opinion there is that Mario made both of those guys a lot of money.

bigTEXan8
09-05-2006, 11:03 AM
And let's see what Mario can do without Manny Lawson (and the other NC State defensive lineman who also was picked in the first round) on the other side of him.

I could be wrong, but didn't Lawson play LB in NC St., or is that what he's being converted too?