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Sportsfan
08-31-2006, 09:34 AM
I won't post the whole thing just the Texans/NFL stuff.

Houston Texans Report / Lance Zierlein

* Look for the Texans to keep 4 tight ends. Owen Daniels has looked very good so far and has earned playing time and we all know that free agent Jeb Putzier will be on the field quite a bit. Bennie Joppru has shown good hands and has stayed healthy and the Texans are using him as a TE and FB so that will allow them to keep Joppru rather than a second fullback. One might think Mark Bruener would be on the bubble but NFL teams love finding TEs who can run block and since there aren't many around, he'll probably stay with the Texans.

* Mario Williams has shown that he has explosiveness and power to push guards and tackles around but he isn't really using it very effectively right now. As our John Harris noted before the draft, he has a tendency to stay engaged with offensive linemen and read situations rather than shedding the linemen and getting after whoever has the ball. I think Williams will be a work in progress that make take a good 2 to 3 years but if it clicks with him, he will dominate. However, he's a long way from dominating right now. Ultimately, I would bet that he'll end up being a full time defensive tackle.

* David Carr is scaring me. I know he has the tools to be a good NFL QB but I just don't see Carr display the mindset of a good NFL QB. Carr is clearly rushing to get rid of the ball and he just doesn't do a great job of buying himself time by moving around in the pocket while keeping his eyes on his WRs. When Carr is sensing pressure, he has a tendency to dump down to RBs/FBs or just take off. If Carr is going to make in the NFL, he's going to have to develop more poise and he has to start to look down the field more than he has over the last year and a half.

* Charles Spencer will be a Pro Bowl tackle at some point in his career. Mark my words. I really like the improved play of the line, but most of all I'm excited about Spencer's play. In run blocking situations, Spencer's power is obvious as he "washes down" pretty much any defender in his path in this zone scheme. In pass protection, he's shown that a bull rush simply won't cut it. Once Spencer gets his hands on people, they are in grave danger. The true test for Spencer is going to be when he faces the best edge pass rushers who also have inside spin moves. That will be a great test.

NFL Rookie Report / Lance Zierlein

--The Green Bay Packers have rookies Tony Moll (5th round) and Jason Spitz (2nd round) starting at guard right now.
--The Dallas Cowboys are considering rookie FS Pat Watkins (5th round) as their starter. Bill Parcells likes what he sees and having the #1 and #2 free safeties ahead of you shot (Keith David) and suspended (Marcus Coleman) certainly doesn't hurt.
-- DeAngelo Williams (1st round), rookie RB for the Panthers, is looking like he could push DeShaun Foster for playing time this year. Williams returned a kickoff 98 yards for a TD and is polished enough as a RB to get carries right away.
-- The Texans are likely to start Mario Williams (1st), DeMeco Ryans (2nd), Charles Spencer (3rd) RB Wali Lundy (5th) when the season opens and TE Owen Daniels (4th) and could also see significant playing time.
-- The Detroit Lions named LB Ernie Sims (1st) the starting weakside linebacker (WLB) and rookie Daniel Bullocks (2nd) started last game at safety for the Lions.
-- The QB class of 2006 looks like it could be special. Vince Young has been okay although he doesn't have a TD and he has thrown one interception. Still, I already expected it to take longer for VY to adapt to the NFL style of QB'ing. I think he'll be fine in time. Jay Cutler and Matt Leinart fell into much better situations than Young and they are more "NFL-ready" and it shows. Both have looked good in their preseason action and I wouldn't be shocked to see all three QBs starting by next year.
-- One of my sleepers that I told you about here in the newsletter before the draft was Jerious Norwood from Miss. State. Norwood was selected in the 3rd round by Atlanta and in the preseason, Norwood has looked terrific. So good, in fact, that the Falcons felt comfortable with trading TJ Duckett and going with Norwood as the backup for Warrick Dunn. Norwood's breakaway speed and explosion makes him one of the few break-away backs in the game.

texan279
08-31-2006, 09:42 AM
--The Dallas Cowboys are considering rookie FS Pat Watkins (5th round) as their starter. Bill Parcells likes what he sees and having the #1 and #2 free safeties ahead of you shot (Keith David) and suspended (Marcus Coleman) certainly doesn't hurt.

I had to laugh at the wording of the last sentence.

D-Vizzl
08-31-2006, 09:43 AM
Good read, the only thing I disagree with is the Jerius Norwood comments, as a matter of fact I will be willing to say that the one thing the falcons were A1 at (DVD running attack) will be the one thing that keeps them out of the playoffs.

nunusguy
08-31-2006, 09:45 AM
I agree with Zierlein on his opinion about Mario ultimately becomes a DT and
not DE in this league.

Rightnow
08-31-2006, 09:56 AM
I wouldn't mind Mario as a DT. There are very few dominant DTs in the league and having one that is always taking on two offensive linemen, collapsing the pocket, disrupting plays, batting down balls and getting in the backfield is worth more than 10 or 12 sacks per season as an DE.

texansfaninla
08-31-2006, 10:04 AM
So basically, this guy is saying that Mario will be a 2-3 year project? Great No. 1 overall pick...especially when (a) Davis' knee is shot, and (b) Carr looks like a high school freshman at QB. If we were going to take a project as the No. 1 overall pick, we should have taken Vince Young. Otherwise we should have taken Reggie Bush. Aside from that, we should have traded down to take Mario, because he still would have been available.

real
08-31-2006, 10:05 AM
Good read, the only thing I disagree with is the Jerius Norwood comments, as a matter of fact I will be willing to say that the one thing the falcons were A1 at (DVD running attack) will be the one thing that keeps them out of the playoffs.

Have you seen Norwood play ? He brings a whole lot more to the table than Duckett.....

HOU-TEX
08-31-2006, 10:06 AM
So basically, this guy is saying that Mario will be a 2-3 year project? Great No. 1 overall pick...especially when (a) Davis' knee is shot, and (b) Carr looks like a high school freshman at QB. If we were going to take a project as the No. 1 overall pick, we should have taken Vince Young. Otherwise we should have taken Reggie Bush. Aside from that, we should have traded down to take Mario, because he still would have been available.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda:crying: :crying: :crying:

texansfaninla
08-31-2006, 10:09 AM
My point is, if this guy is right, then we totally botched the No. 1 pick. Heck, most people already think we did that. If what he says is true about Mario being a project until 2008 or 2009, then it just verifies what most people think anyway.

The staff knew Davis was hurt, as well as Mathis. Yet they pass on Bush.

The staff could have taken Vince Young as a 1-2 year project to replace Carr, who hasn't exactly looked like a No. 1 overall pick in his four years. Kubiak said he could "fix" the Carr...now, there's a potential QB controversy with Sage Rosenfels?

Instead, they take a 2-3 year project at a position that they have already addressed in free agency (Weaver) and in re-fitting the defense to fit the talent of the squad (4-3 from 3-4).

Great thinking. It defies logic and will be questioned this year - A LOT - if Mario looks totally average.

real
08-31-2006, 10:12 AM
My point is, if this guy is right, then we totally botched the No. 1 pick. Heck, most people already think we did that. If what he says is true about Mario being a project until 2008 or 2009, then it just verifies what most people think anyway.

How So ?

19-10
08-31-2006, 10:16 AM
Agree on the carr comments and hope he's wrong about Mario. Would be sad to think we wasted a pick like that on a project that could end up at tackle.
How many tackles can run and jump like that man? If it looks, smells and acts like and end.... but it's on him. He does need to destroy the learning curve and get busy soooner than later

JDizzle
08-31-2006, 10:17 AM
I disagree with the full-time DT business. Supposedly this is just preseason experimentation, and perhaps he can be effective there during short-yardage situations, but IMO Mario belongs at DE and I'm sure we'll see him there alot more during the regular season.

real
08-31-2006, 10:21 AM
I disagree with the full-time DT business. Supposedly this is just preseason experimentation, and perhaps he can be effective there during short-yardage situations, but IMO Mario belongs at DE and I'm sure we'll see him there alot more during the regular season.

I agree. I don't think they are going to move him to full time DT...I like him as a DE, going to DT on passing downs...IMO, having him as a full time DT doesn't properly utilize his talents...:twocents:

Lucky
08-31-2006, 10:24 AM
Mario Williams has shown that he has explosiveness and power to push guards and tackles around but he isn't really using it very effectively right now...Ultimately, I would bet that he'll end up being a full time defensive tackle.

Earlier this year, Zierlein described Mario as a bigger version of Jevon Kearse. Now, Williams is a DT. Can't wait to hear Lance's opinion of Mario in a couple of months, because I'm certain it will have changed (again) by then.

Honoring Earl 34
08-31-2006, 10:26 AM
My point is, if this guy is right, then we totally botched the No. 1 pick. Heck, most people already think we did that. If what he says is true about Mario being a project until 2008 or 2009, then it just verifies what most people think anyway.

The staff knew Davis was hurt, as well as Mathis. Yet they pass on Bush.

The staff could have taken Vince Young as a 1-2 year project to replace Carr, who hasn't exactly looked like a No. 1 overall pick in his four years. Kubiak said he could "fix" the Carr...now, there's a potential QB controversy with Sage Rosenfels?

Instead, they take a 2-3 year project at a position that they have already addressed in free agency (Weaver) and in re-fitting the defense to fit the talent of the squad (4-3 from 3-4).

Great thinking. It defies logic and will be questioned this year - A LOT - if Mario looks totally average.Quick , agile 300lb men are worth their weght in gold ... it really does'nt matter where you put him as long as he disrupts . Why take Vince when you could get Cutler ?

HOU-TEX
08-31-2006, 10:26 AM
Earlier this year, Zierlein described Mario as a bigger version of Jevon Kearse. Now, Williams is a DT. Can't wait to hear Lance's opinion of Mario in a couple of months, because I'm certain it will have changed (again) by then.

Maybe Free Safety?:chicken:

Hervoyel
08-31-2006, 11:31 AM
Earlier this year, Zierlein described Mario as a bigger version of Jevon Kearse. Now, Williams is a DT. Can't wait to hear Lance's opinion of Mario in a couple of months, because I'm certain it will have changed (again) by then.

Lance is living proof that talking about something all of the time has no bearing on whether or not you actually understand it.

People often discount what fans know because well, they're just fans. They aren't involved in it and they don't necessarily have any special innate understanding of it because they enjoy watching it. The same thing really could (and should) be said about sports writers and clowns like this on radio shows. They aren't really involved in it anymore than we are. They don't understand much more (if anything more) than we do.

cuppacoffee
08-31-2006, 11:33 AM
So basically, this guy is saying that Mario will be a 2-3 year project? Great No. 1 overall pick...especially when (a) Davis' knee is shot, and (b) Carr looks like a high school freshman at QB. If we were going to take a project as the No. 1 overall pick, we should have taken Vince Young. Otherwise we should have taken Reggie Bush. Aside from that, we should have traded down to take Mario, because he still would have been available.

Have you been :hides: with your ears plugged.

Just what has this particular person ever written/said that you assign him so much credibility? :confused:

Is it the fact that you agree with him, so he must be right?.. :rolleyes:

:coffee:

V Man
08-31-2006, 11:47 AM
I agree. I don't think they are going to move him to full time DT...I like him as a DE, going to DT on passing downs...IMO, having him as a full time DT doesn't properly utilize his talents...:twocents:

Bingo, that is about exactly what came to my mind as a read the piece. Thanks for posting my thoughts, xtruroyaltyx.

wolf123
08-31-2006, 11:57 AM
My point is, if this guy is right, then we totally botched the No. 1 pick. Heck, most people already think we did that. If what he says is true about Mario being a project until 2008 or 2009, then it just verifies what most people think anyway.

The staff knew Davis was hurt, as well as Mathis. Yet they pass on Bush.

The staff could have taken Vince Young as a 1-2 year project to replace Carr, who hasn't exactly looked like a No. 1 overall pick in his four years. Kubiak said he could "fix" the Carr...now, there's a potential QB controversy with Sage Rosenfels?

Instead, they take a 2-3 year project at a position that they have already addressed in free agency (Weaver) and in re-fitting the defense to fit the talent of the squad (4-3 from 3-4).

Great thinking. It defies logic and will be questioned this year - A LOT - if Mario looks totally average.

Even if this guy is right and Mario is a stronger DT than DE, how is this a bad thing...As of right now our DT's are old, other than TJ. Weaver is, and was acquired to be, a DE...a run-stuffing DE. He doesn't have the bulk to play DT, and this was shown this preseason, which is why the coaching staff moved him back to DE.

Also, Kubiac understands that a solid defense is just as important if not more important than addressing offensive areas. By saying we screwed up by not picking Bush is ridiculous...especially if Lundy continues to play the way he has.

Another poster brought a great point, why should we have selected VY when we could have dropped out of the top 10 to select Cutler(a QB with an actual arm and potential upside). The problem was we couldn't move down 1-3 spots...we would have had to move atleast 7-10 spots to even get a trade.

beerlover
08-31-2006, 12:24 PM
mark me down as agreeing with Lance Zierlein regarding Carr (he's going to have to develop more poise and he has to start to look down the field more) Spencer (Spencer's power is obvious as he "washes down" pretty much any defender in his path in this zone scheme. In pass protection, he's shown that a bull rush simply won't cut it.) & Mario (would bet that he'll end up being a full time defensive tackle).

I would mildly disagree with retaining 4 TE's or using Joppru @ FB (an entirely new position). I was a big fan of Pat Watkins & hoping the Texans would draft him in the 4th or 5th round, but looks like we did alright as it turned out, but what Pat brings is a tall rangy FS that is very athletic and likes to hit.

texansfaninla
08-31-2006, 12:25 PM
BS. I don't think they really gave it an earnest shot to get a trade down to the middle 10. Maybe they put feelers out during the last couple of days, but if they had wanted to move down they could have. They had months to make that happen if they had wanted, but they spent all their damn time trying to throw everyone off their scent. (Note: when you're picking No. 1, you don't really need to do that. Nobody else can take your guy.) I'm convinced they didn't know what they were going to do until a couple of days before the draft. And they ended up doing the most idiotic thing they could've done. (The fact that Casserly was involved should be no surprise.)

All indications are that Mario would not have been taken by the Saints (AJ Hawk would've been their pick), Titans (Vince Young), or Jets (D'Brick). Heck, the Packers might not have even taken him at 5. And, even Mario himself was shocked to be No. 1, if you'll recall. Plus, he was expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick after the season. Go look that one up.

As for Cutler, again the Texans could have easily traded out of the top 10 if they so desired.

The fact that (a) they wanted Mario to be 1st overall without thinking about the intense scrutiny he will be under as arguably the most surprising top pick in NFL history, along with (b) the fact that they knew Davis' knee wasn't healing, and (c) Mathis had injuries from that motorcycle accident, and (d) that Carr hasn't exactly been No. 1 overall-worthy himself...I mean, it's so overwhelmingly apparent they botched this thing. Mario has to be an absolute stud to justify the decision. It's unfair to him, and it's unfair to the fans.

At least they got a defensive rookie of the year candidate in the draft...DeMeco Ryans. Unfortunately, no matter how good this draft class is, it will be defined by the success and/or failure of Mario.

beerlover
08-31-2006, 12:29 PM
At least they got a defensive rookie of the year candidate in the draft...DeMeco Ryans. Unfortunately, no matter how good this draft class is, it will be defined by the success and/or failure of Mario.

Those who would base their opinions on 1st year performance only are missing the boat. DE/DT generally take at least a couple years to develop even for the best of the best. I would give Mario at least three years to see what his promise brings before a rush to judgement :ok:

HOU-TEX
08-31-2006, 12:33 PM
BS. I don't think they really gave it an earnest shot to get a trade down to the middle 10. Maybe they put feelers out during the last couple of days, but if they had wanted to move down they could have. They had months to make that happen if they had wanted, but they spent all their damn time trying to throw everyone off their scent. (Note: when you're picking No. 1, you don't really need to do that. Nobody else can take your guy.) I'm convinced they didn't know what they were going to do until a couple of days before the draft. And they ended up doing the most idiotic thing they could've done. (The fact that Casserly was involved should be no surprise.)

All indications are that Mario would not have been taken by the Saints (AJ Hawk would've been their pick), Titans (Vince Young), or Jets (D'Brick). Heck, the Packers might not have even taken him at 5. And, even Mario himself was shocked to be No. 1, if you'll recall. Plus, he was expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick after the season. Go look that one up.

As for Cutler, again the Texans could have easily traded out of the top 10 if they so desired.

The fact that (a) they wanted Mario to be 1st overall without thinking about the intense scrutiny he will be under as arguably the most surprising top pick in NFL history, along with (b) the fact that they knew Davis' knee wasn't healing, and (c) Mathis had injuries from that motorcycle accident, and (d) that Carr hasn't exactly been No. 1 overall-worthy himself...I mean, it's so overwhelmingly apparent they botched this thing. Mario has to be an absolute stud to justify the decision. It's unfair to him, and it's unfair to the fans.

At least they got a defensive rookie of the year candidate in the draft...DeMeco Ryans. Unfortunately, no matter how good this draft class is, it will be defined by the success and/or failure of Mario.

Since you obviously haven't gotten over the draft (almost 5 months ago) and moved on to supporting the Texans decision like most others have. I think there still might be a draft thread somewhere on this MB you can post your obvious expertise in drafting procedures. Just don't be surprised when you see that you're the only one posting in it.:tease:

Honoring Earl 34
08-31-2006, 12:35 PM
BS. I don't think they really gave it an earnest shot to get a trade down to the middle 10. Maybe they put feelers out during the last couple of days, but if they had wanted to move down they could have. They had months to make that happen if they had wanted, but they spent all their damn time trying to throw everyone off their scent. (Note: when you're picking No. 1, you don't really need to do that. Nobody else can take your guy.) I'm convinced they didn't know what they were going to do until a couple of days before the draft. And they ended up doing the most idiotic thing they could've done. (The fact that Casserly was involved should be no surprise.)

All indications are that Mario would not have been taken by the Saints (AJ Hawk would've been their pick), Titans (Vince Young), or Jets (D'Brick). Heck, the Packers might not have even taken him at 5. And, even Mario himself was shocked to be No. 1, if you'll recall. Plus, he was expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick after the season. Go look that one up.

As for Cutler, again the Texans could have easily traded out of the top 10 if they so desired.

The fact that (a) they wanted Mario to be 1st overall without thinking about the intense scrutiny he will be under as arguably the most surprising top pick in NFL history, along with (b) the fact that they knew Davis' knee wasn't healing, and (c) Mathis had injuries from that motorcycle accident, and (d) that Carr hasn't exactly been No. 1 overall-worthy himself...I mean, it's so overwhelmingly apparent they botched this thing. Mario has to be an absolute stud to justify the decision. It's unfair to him, and it's unfair to the fans.

At least they got a defensive rookie of the year candidate in the draft...DeMeco Ryans. Unfortunately, no matter how good this draft class is, it will be defined by the success and/or failure of Mario.
Who are you and what makes you think you've got this figured out ? All I know is the Texans are much better so I'll assume they know a little something .

I remember the Jets offering the Saints a kings ransom for Bush ... a Godfather offer the Saints can't refuse . They Saints leveraged the pick into 2 #1s and Vilma is'nt that what happened .

I don't remember the Saints wanting AJ hawk , if anything it was DBrick .

afcman
08-31-2006, 12:40 PM
Thank the good Lord we didn't get Young. I don't see that guy really making it. Cutler would have been awesome. Bush would have been nice as to take some pressure off Carr.

As I stated in another post, I give Carr another year to improve. Otherwise it's time to move on.

thunderkyss
08-31-2006, 12:41 PM
Zierlien:
-- The QB class of 2006 looks like it could be special. Vince Young has been okay although he doesn't have a TD and he has thrown one interception. Still, I already expected it to take longer for VY to adapt to the NFL style of QB'ing. I think he'll be fine in time. Jay Cutler and Matt Leinart fell into much better situations than Young and they are more "NFL-ready" and it shows. Both have looked good in their preseason action and I wouldn't be shocked to see all three QBs starting by next year.

Well with the way things worked out...... VY in Tennessee, when it's all said & done with, no one will be able to say Vince outplayed those guys because he of the talent around him.

Honoring Earl 34
08-31-2006, 12:45 PM
Well with the way things worked out...... VY in Tennessee, when it's all said & done with, no one will be able to say Vince outplayed those guys because he of the talent around him.
VY should have told Bud Adams " Hey Bud ... you pick me and I'm pitching for the Astros " .

dwilt72
08-31-2006, 01:05 PM
Since you obviously haven't gotten over the draft (almost 5 months ago) and moved on to supporting the Texans decision like most others have. I think there still might be a draft thread somewhere on this MB you can post your obvious expertise in drafting procedures. Just don't be surprised when you see that you're the only one posting in it.:tease:

Believe me, there are a lot of people who still shake their head over what happened in April. The "company line" was that Mario was picked because of his amazing talent. The same could have been said about Bush or VY. The knock on VY is that it would have taken 3 years or so to come around, but guess what, it takes DE's about that long too. I still believe when all is said and done the Texans look like idiots for passing on VY and Bush. Mario may have a decent career, but I still think he will be no better than the 4th best player in this draft (I think Hawk will have a better career too). The moves that this team have made the last couple of years have been extremely frustrating.

srstex
08-31-2006, 01:05 PM
#1 VY is a terrible QB at this time, and this may be an understatement.
#2 Lundi has a higher pr/carry avg than Bush, so we didn't need him either.
And #3 unless you have a Super Bowl ring like Kubiak, you don't have what it takes to be condemning our caoch !

Brandon420tx
08-31-2006, 01:09 PM
I love this years moves. I guess I was unaffected by the ESPN hype (Because I didn't have ESPN lol) and that is why I didn't care for Bush. My knock on Vince is.... we have David Carr already, (and yes, I know how 50% of the MB feels about him) and I prefered Cutler and Lienhart (Sp? too lazy to check) anyway.

afcman
08-31-2006, 01:13 PM
I prefered Cutler and Lienhart (Sp? too lazy to check) anyway.

Ditto.

cuppacoffee
08-31-2006, 02:06 PM
texansfaninla]"BS. I don't think they really gave it an earnest shot to get a trade down to the middle 10. Maybe they put feelers out during the last couple of days, but if they had wanted to move down they could have."

This is all speculation and opinion on your part.
The Texan brass said no offers were made to them to trade the pick.
(I am reasonably sure they meant no viable trade down)

"They had months to make that happen if they had wanted, but they spent all their damn time trying to throw everyone off their scent. (Note: when you're picking No. 1, you don't really need to do that. Nobody else can take your guy.)"

You knew this and the Texans didn't?...:rolleyes:


"I'm convinced they didn't know what they were going to do until a couple of days before the draft. And they ended up doing the most idiotic thing they could've done. (The fact that Casserly was involved should be no surprise.)"

.:hmmm: I'm not convinced.

"All indications are that Mario would not have been taken by the Saints (AJ Hawk would've been their pick), Titans (Vince Young), or Jets (D'Brick). Heck, the Packers might not have even taken him at 5."

What indications do you speak of? Teams do more lying before the draft than the Iraqi minister of information. Or didn't you know this already?

"And, even Mario himself was shocked to be No. 1, if you'll recall. Plus, he was expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick after the season. Go look that one up."

I don't recall Mario being shocked. Suprised maybe. After all, all the experts(?) had us drafting Bush. So much for experts.

Expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick? Again, by whom? Draft gurus or NFL general managers who know what they are talking about?

"As for Cutler, again the Texans could have easily traded out of the top 10 if they so desired."

Cutler hasn't proved anything yet. He looks good against 2-3 teamers, but then so does Sage. Last I checked Sage hasn't made it to the pro bowl yet.

"The fact that (a) they wanted Mario to be 1st overall without thinking about the intense scrutiny he will be under as arguably the most surprising top pick in NFL history, along with (b) the fact that they knew Davis' knee wasn't healing, and (c) Mathis had injuries from that motorcycle accident, and (d) that Carr hasn't exactly been No. 1 overall-worthy himself...I mean, it's so overwhelmingly apparent they botched this thing. Mario has to be an absolute stud to justify the decision. It's unfair to him, and it's unfair to the fans."

Wow..'intense scrutiny'. Gotta remember to take that into consideration next time we make a draft pick.

Doctors said Davis knee was fit. He also passed the physical before camp opened.

As far as running backs go (you apparently wanted Bush), read the thousands of posts about the Denver scheme not needing number 1 pick running backs.
You do believe what you read?

Where does Mathis enter into this. A return man?

You want to spend the number one draft pick on a kick returner? Now that might draw some 'intense scrutiny'.


"At least they got a defensive rookie of the year candidate in the draft...DeMeco Ryans. Unfortunately, no matter how good this draft class is, it will be defined by the success and/or failure of Mario."

We agree on DeMeco. We also agree on Mario defining this draft. Only problem is, you have already made up your mind about Mario.

Decided, by the way, after only three exhibition games in which Mario has had limited playing time.

:coffee:

Marcus
08-31-2006, 02:27 PM
Earlier this year, Zierlein described Mario as a bigger version of Jevon Kearse. Now, Williams is a DT. Can't wait to hear Lance's opinion of Mario in a couple of months, because I'm certain it will have changed (again) by then.

If Richard Justice can flip flop his opinion based upon how the current wind is blowing, and if John McClain can flip flop his opinion based upon how the current wind is blowing . . . what the hell makes Zierlein so special?

All he is . . is some local sports talking head who doesn't know squat, paired along with Gooseneck Dump Granato. I can't stand either one of them.

Marcus
08-31-2006, 02:32 PM
Lance is living proof that talking about something all of the time has no bearing on whether or not you actually understand it.

:perfect10:

GP
08-31-2006, 02:32 PM
It cracks me up to see all this analysis on Mario during preseason games that we KNEW IN ADVANCE were being used by the coaches to look at Mario and how he fits into different scenarios on the field. It's purely evaluatory.

You don't put a guy with Mario's speed and range in the middle. You put a guy like Robaire Smith or Travis Johnson: A guy who takes up space and holds his ground.

You put Mario on the edges, or line him up at Tackle only to stunt him around the end at the snap if you really want to screw with the QB's head.

My opinion is that he's going to play at DE...but we wanted to use three preseason games to see what he can or cannot do further inside the line. It's all about getting evaluated in the heat of the battle NOW, during meaningless games, so that the staff knows how much or in what situations to put Mario at DE and conversely at spots further inside the line. We've seen the quotes from the coaches that talk about us shifting guys around during the preseason to see it looks against live competition.

The Preacher
08-31-2006, 02:35 PM
From my point of view, this past offseason is looking like one that might be compared to some all time greats in five years. Mario has been pretty disruptive and if he is doing that already to say he is a 2 or 3 year project is ridiculous. VY all I can say is Kerry Collins and RB looks good but Jerrious Norwood and Jerome Harrison look almost as talented, not to mention Wali, and they were third rounders and a sixth respectively. Good running backs are simply WAY easier to find than dominant D-linemen. Mario seems to be the clear-cut best choice if you ask me, especially for the Texans. Demeco is making a ton of tackles for a reason-all the o-line is tied up dealing with our d-line. Mario hasn't been getting the love lately but I would be surprised if he didn't become absolutely dominant.

Doug
08-31-2006, 02:51 PM
I'm curious to know when this shocked look of Mario took place. Can someone please answer that for me? I really don't remember it.

infantrycak
08-31-2006, 02:57 PM
I'm curious to know when this shocked look of Mario took place. Can someone please answer that for me? I really don't remember it.

It happened at the same time Mathis season reducing motorcycle injury happened--never. The closest thing was Williams' agent saying he thought the Texans were playing Williams off Bush as a negotiation tactic at first. Obviously in the days before the draft they came to understand the Texans were serious. Mathis' injury which is keeping him out of play is unrelated to his motorcycle accident and according to him happened at the pro-bowl.

dwilt72
08-31-2006, 03:04 PM
If Richard Justice can flip flop his opinion based upon how the current wind is blowing, and if John McClain can flip flop his opinion based upon how the current wind is blowing . . . what the hell makes Zierlein so special?

All he is . . is some local sports talking head who doesn't know squat, paired along with Gooseneck Dump Granato. I can't stand either one of them.

Say what you want about the 610 morning guys, but I enjoy them. They make my morning drive. Lance's dad was a O-Line coach, so I'm sure he has connections. A lot of what he says is based on NFL scouts, not just his opinion. Truthfully, I hear more logical stuff from him than a lot of the blind homer bull that's spouted on this board. A lot of you have a rude awakening this year. I don't expect the Texans to be the worst team in the league like SI does, but I don't look for them to be .500 or over either. I think if they get 4 or 5 wins this year, we should all be happy with that.

edo783
08-31-2006, 03:04 PM
I'm curious to know when this shocked look of Mario took place. Can someone please answer that for me? I really don't remember it.

Mario did mention that he was surprised to get the call from his agent that he would be the #1 pick. I think he and his agent both asumed that the FO was playing them and then when they got seriouse, they were surprised. Heck, everyone else was to.

Pantherstang84
08-31-2006, 03:08 PM
So basically, this guy is saying that Mario will be a 2-3 year project? Great No. 1 overall pick...especially when (a) Davis' knee is shot, and (b) Carr looks like a high school freshman at QB. If we were going to take a project as the No. 1 overall pick, we should have taken Vince Young. Otherwise we should have taken Reggie Bush. Aside from that, we should have traded down to take Mario, because he still would have been available.


Until Bush shows that he can run between the tackles (I haven't seen him doing it much this preseason), I think I can live with the Kube's decision.

hollywood_texan
08-31-2006, 03:09 PM
Mario will be just fine. Every rookie has a lot to learn though.

To play the defensive line requires a lot skill and technique in the NFL. Given Mario's physical abilities, if has the right work ethic and coaching, he will become a great defensive lineman. He seems to me to be too tall to play defensive tackle though.

A guy like Mario can play in the NFL at a high level for over 10 years. And just because it may take him 2 years or so to consistently tap into that high level, doesn't mean we won't see flashes of brillance along the way that will greatly help the Texans to victories.

Mario will be just fine if coached properly and will come along quicker than most people are expecting.

Double Barrel
08-31-2006, 03:09 PM
Bruce Smith - HoF DE - said it takes years to develop your skills as a d-lineman. This is common knowledge in the NFL. Lance doesnít have some crystal ball of wisdom here, folks. He's taking a shot in the dark about Williams being a full-time DT. His opinion holds no more validity or value than any given message board poster, IMO. I'm taking it with grain of salt. Dude is making these statements after three freakin' pre-season games.

texansfaninla
08-31-2006, 03:58 PM
Thanks for your support, dwilt72.

To cuppacoffee, I offer the following in response:

(1) I wrote, "BS. I don't think they really gave it an earnest shot to get a trade down to the middle 10. Maybe they put feelers out during the last couple of days, but if they had wanted to move down they could have."

You responded, "This is all speculation and opinion on your part. The Texan brass said no offers were made to them to trade the pick. (I am reasonably sure they meant no viable trade down)"

My reply: It is speculation on my part, BUT - if they wanted to trade down, they could have, especially if they had made attempts to do so in the two or three months or so before the draft when they had nothing but evaluation to do. And, you say that "the Texan brass said no offers were made to them..." Well, you make my point for me. They could have initiated the conversation, instead of sitting back and waiting.

(2) I wrote, "They had months to make that happen if they had wanted, but they spent all their damn time trying to throw everyone off their scent. (Note: when you're picking No. 1, you don't really need to do that. Nobody else can take your guy.)"

You responded: "You knew this and the Texans didn't?..."

My reply: Again, if they were waiting on someone to offer them something for the top pick, but spent the rest of their time putting on a pointless grand charade about bringing in Bush, Young, Mario, going to Bush's pro day, etc., etc., yet they knew who they wanted and had a plan in place to (a) get the player at the best price and (b) make the team better overall, then they failed to accomplish this by making Mario (NOT a consensus No. 1 prospect) the No. 1 overall pick and not getting a trade down to garner more picks and/or talent.

(3) I wrote, "I'm convinced they didn't know what they were going to do until a couple of days before the draft. And they ended up doing the most idiotic thing they could've done. (The fact that Casserly was involved should be no surprise.)"

You responded: "I'm not convinced."

My reply: Isn't it pretty freaking obvious? You think they set out from Day 1 to take Mario? Please. They overthought everything and indecisively dragged the whole thing out to a ridiculous length, then made up their mind a couple of days before. Otherwise they could have just saved their money and our attention by saying who the guy would be. I'll add, if that's them knowing what they are doing, then they really are the worst expansion team in NFL history.

(4) I wrote, "All indications are that Mario would not have been taken by the Saints (AJ Hawk would've been their pick), Titans (Vince Young), or Jets (D'Brick). Heck, the Packers might not have even taken him at 5."

You responded, "What indications do you speak of? Teams do more lying before the draft than the Iraqi minister of information. Or didn't you know this already?"

My reply: Go do the research. It's fairly common knowledge if you look at, for example, some of Peter King's columns post-draft, or various other online resources, that the Saints were going to take Hawk, the Titans Vince, and the Jets D'Brick. I think the Packers were considering Mario, and quick research confirms that they were looking at Hawk and Mario, so I think he would have been taken at 5.

(5) I wrote, "And, even Mario himself was shocked to be No. 1, if you'll recall. Plus, he was expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick after the season. Go look that one up."

You responded, "I don't recall Mario being shocked. Suprised maybe. After all, all the experts(?) had us drafting Bush. So much for experts."

My reply: Okay, maybe not "shocked. But definitely surprised. I know I read that in at least a couple of articles.

You also replied: "Expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick? Again, by whom? Draft gurus or NFL general managers who know what they are talking about?"

My reply: Look at this link - http://scoreboards.aol.com/football/ncaaf/team/ncst/team_news.aspx - from NC State, from around January. He was hoping to be a top 10 pick at that time. It reads, "Some draft analysts project him as a possible top 10 pick." He bumped up after his combine, plain and simple, to a mid top 10 pick. Then the Texans decided to make him No. 1 overall.

(6) I wrote, "As for Cutler, again the Texans could have easily traded out of the top 10 if they so desired."

You responded, "Cutler hasn't proved anything yet. He looks good against 2-3 teamers, but then so does Sage. Last I checked Sage hasn't made it to the pro bowl yet."

My reply: I was stating that based on an earlier post.

(7) I wrote, "The fact that (a) they wanted Mario to be 1st overall without thinking about the intense scrutiny he will be under as arguably the most surprising top pick in NFL history, along with (b) the fact that they knew Davis' knee wasn't healing, and (c) Mathis had injuries from that motorcycle accident, and (d) that Carr hasn't exactly been No. 1 overall-worthy himself...I mean, it's so overwhelmingly apparent they botched this thing. Mario has to be an absolute stud to justify the decision. It's unfair to him, and it's unfair to the fans."

You responded, "Wow..'intense scrutiny'. Gotta remember to take that into consideration next time we make a draft pick."

My reply: The scrutiny is on Williams, more than any other player in recent draft history. They could have handled this thing differently and he wouldn't be in this "Williams or Bush" debate for the rest of his career, which is what it will end up being. That kind of pressure could crush a 21-year-old from a town of less than 800 people.

You also responded, "Doctors said Davis knee was fit. He also passed the physical before camp opened. As far as running backs go (you apparently wanted Bush), read the thousands of posts about the Denver scheme not needing number 1 pick running backs."

My reply: Hey, the Denver scheme is great. I love it. Don't get me wrong, the running game is far better off with Kubiak in charge of it. But imagine Bush making one cut and getting up field. He'd have much better numbers in Houston than he does in New Orleans, and better than any that Lundy would put up given the same situation. PLUS, he would attract attention as a wide receiver. PLUS, he would've taken some defensive pressure off of Carr for these reasons. PLUS, he could have done kick returning on the side. PLUS, and this is off the field, but he would make the Texans a desirable team to follow nationally.

(8) I wrote, "At least they got a defensive rookie of the year candidate in the draft...DeMeco Ryans. Unfortunately, no matter how good this draft class is, it will be defined by the success and/or failure of Mario."

You responded, "We agree on DeMeco. We also agree on Mario defining this draft. Only problem is, you have already made up your mind about Mario. Decided, by the way, after only three exhibition games in which Mario has had limited playing time."

My reply: If Mario is a two-to-three year project, as expressed in the article that started this thread, my point is we could have done better. He hasn't exactly looked like the second coming of Reggie White in the games I've watched. In fact, he doesn't appear to be able to shake blockers and hasn't done much other than a couple of tackles throughout this preseason. Meanwhile other rookies are making a tangible immediate impact, like the DL for the NY Giants. And, I know, you'll argue that Mario attracts so that other players on the defense can make plays. That's all well and fine. My point is, he shouldn't have been No. 1 overall. Period. And if we were going to take a project No. 1 overall, perhaps it should've been Vince Young. Otherwise we should have taken Reggie Bush.

I sure hope he makes some big time strides this season. If Bush goes off and becomes what everyone expects, and Mario struggles to get four sacks, the poor guy is going to get hammered in the press - no matter what you think about it. (And I sincerely hope I am wrong. I hope Mario turns out to be a destructive defensive juggernaut.) Bottom line - the Texans could have handled his selection better.

Kaiser Toro
08-31-2006, 04:32 PM
How are Vince and Reggie faring individually and how are their teams faring in preseason? As far as early returns are concerned it is a landslide in favor of the Texans, no matter how loud, descriptive or imaginative the vocal and out of touch minority like to make it seem.

Double Barrel
08-31-2006, 04:53 PM
Why is it such a bitter pill to swallow for some folks if Coach Kubiak wanted Mario Williams? IT WAS HIS DECISION. Kubiak's, not Casserly, not McNair, not the fans or media, but Kubiak's. He has said so in black and white terms on several occasions.

Bush and Young could very well be great NFL players - they certainly have the talent and potential - BUT SO DOES MARIO WILLIAMS.

Who would you rather have: Reggie White -or- Barry Sanders? Both HoF players, but one has a chance to make a much greater impact on your games, because if you have a dominant defense, the other team won't score as often (thus taking pressure off your offense).

cuppacoffee
08-31-2006, 04:59 PM
texansfaninla]Thanks for your support, dwilt72.

"To cuppacoffee, I offer the following in response:

(1) I wrote, "BS. I don't think they really gave it an earnest shot to get a trade down to the middle 10. Maybe they put feelers out during the last couple of days, but if they had wanted to move down they could have."

You responded, "This is all speculation and opinion on your part. The Texan brass said no offers were made to them to trade the pick. (I am reasonably sure they meant no viable trade down)"

My reply: It is speculation on my part, BUT - if they wanted to trade down, they could have, especially if they had made attempts to do so in the two or three months or so before the draft when they had nothing but evaluation to do. And, you say that "the Texan brass said no offers were made to them..." Well, you make my point for me. They could have initiated the conversation, instead of sitting back and waiting."


How does this make your point? Furthermore, if you have the #1 pick you do not go shopping it. You wait for offers to come to you. Shopping the pick gives the impression you are anxious to trade.

As you admit all speculation.


2) I wrote, "They had months to make that happen if they had wanted, but they spent all their damn time trying to throw everyone off their scent. (Note: when you're picking No. 1, you don't really need to do that. Nobody else can take your guy.)"

You responded: "You knew this and the Texans didn't?...""
My reply: Again, if they were waiting on someone to offer them something for the top pick, but spent the rest of their time putting on a pointless grand charade about bringing in Bush, Young, Mario, going to Bush's pro day, etc., etc., yet they knew who they wanted and had a plan in place to (a) get the player at the best price and (b) make the team better overall, then they failed to accomplish this by making Mario (NOT a consensus No. 1 prospect) the No. 1 overall pick and not getting a trade down to garner more picks and/or talent."

After going through this 'grand charade' is the point at which the decision was made to draft Mario. For one reason or another the other players were evaluated and passed on by the Texans. What is it about this that you fail to understand?

You appear to assume that the Texans wanted to trade the pick.

You are already proclaiming Mario a failure?

(3) "I wrote, "I'm convinced they didn't know what they were going to do until a couple of days before the draft. And they ended up doing the most idiotic thing they could've done. (The fact that Casserly was involved should be no surprise.)"

You responded: "I'm not convinced."

My reply: Isn't it pretty freaking obvious? You think they set out from Day 1 to take Mario? Please. They overthought everything and indecisively dragged the whole thing out to a ridiculous length, then made up their mind a couple of days before. Otherwise they could have just saved their money and our attention by saying who the guy would be. I'll add, if that's them knowing what they are doing, then they really are the worst expansion team in NFL history.

No, it isn't obvious to me.

How would your scenario save them money?

(4) I wrote, "All indications are that Mario would not have been taken by the Saints (AJ Hawk would've been their pick), Titans (Vince Young), or Jets (D'Brick). Heck, the Packers might not have even taken him at 5."


You responded, "What indications do you speak of? Teams do more lying before the draft than the Iraqi minister of information. Or didn't you know this already?"

My reply: Go do the research. It's fairly common knowledge if you look at, for example, some of Peter King's columns post-draft, or various other online resources, that the Saints were going to take Hawk, the Titans Vince, and the Jets D'Brick. I think the Packers were considering Mario, and quick research confirms that they were looking at Hawk and Mario, so I think he would have been taken at 5.

Research? Teams will not let me view their draft boards. And the teams are the only ones whos opinions count.

Peter King? Give me a break. I already surmised you get your info from sports writers and espn.

(5) "I wrote, "And, even Mario himself was shocked to be No. 1, if you'll recall. Plus, he was expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick after the season. Go look that one up."

You responded, "I don't recall Mario being shocked. Suprised maybe. After all, all the experts(?) had us drafting Bush. So much for experts."

My reply: Okay, maybe not "shocked. But definitely surprised. I know I read that in at least a couple of articles."

Agreement at last.

You also replied: "Expected to be a mid to late top 10 pick? Again, by whom? Draft gurus or NFL general managers who know what they are talking about?"

My reply: Look at this link - http://scoreboards.aol.com/football/ncaaf/team/ncst/team_news.aspx - from NC State, from around January. He was hoping to be a top 10 pick at that time. It reads, "Some draft analysts project him as a possible top 10 pick." He bumped up after his combine, plain and simple, to a mid top 10 pick. Then the Texans decided to make him No. 1 overall.

You say analysts... I say guru's.


(6) I wrote, "As for Cutler, again the Texans could have easily traded out of the top 10 if they so desired."

You responded, "Cutler hasn't proved anything yet. He looks good against 2-3 teamers, but then so does Sage. Last I checked Sage hasn't made it to the pro bowl yet."

My reply: I was stating that based on an earlier post.

OK But he still hasn't proven anything.

But for the record, I think he was the best QB taken in the draft, I am just not ready to anoint him to greatness.

(7) "I wrote, "The fact that (a) they wanted Mario to be 1st overall without thinking about the intense scrutiny he will be under as arguably the most surprising top pick in NFL history, along with (b) the fact that they knew Davis' knee wasn't healing, and (c) Mathis had injuries from that motorcycle accident, and (d) that Carr hasn't exactly been No. 1 overall-worthy himself...I mean, it's so overwhelmingly apparent they botched this thing. Mario has to be an absolute stud to justify the decision. It's unfair to him, and it's unfair to the fans."
You responded, "Wow..'intense scrutiny'. Gotta remember to take that into consideration next time we make a draft pick."


"My reply: The scrutiny is on Williams, more than any other player in recent draft history. They could have handled this thing differently and he wouldn't be in this "Williams or Bush" debate for the rest of his career, which is what it will end up being. That kind of pressure could crush a 21-year-old from a town of less than 800 people.

You also responded, "Doctors said Davis knee was fit. He also passed the physical before camp opened. As far as running backs go (you apparently wanted Bush), read the thousands of posts about the Denver scheme not needing number 1 pick running backs."


"My reply: Hey, the Denver scheme is great. I love it. Don't get me wrong, the running game is far better off with Kubiak in charge of it. But imagine Bush making one cut and getting up field. He'd have much better numbers in Houston than he does in New Orleans, and better than any that Lundy would put up given the same situation. PLUS, he would attract attention as a wide receiver. PLUS, he would've taken some defensive pressure off of Carr for these reasons. PLUS, he could have done kick returning on the side. PLUS, and this is off the field, but he would make the Texans a desirable team to follow nationally."

Originally I wanted the team to draft Bush. He may be all those things and he may not.

I am not going to proclaim the FO a bunch of fools just because the team drafted Mario instead of Bush.

Something came out of the Bush interview that turned the Texas away from him and toward Mario.

I am not going to proclaim Mario a failure after limited play in 3 preseason games.

Or Bush a success after 3 preseason games.


(8) I wrote, "At least they got a defensive rookie of the year candidate in the draft...DeMeco Ryans. Unfortunately, no matter how good this draft class is, it will be defined by the success and/or failure of Mario."

You responded, "We agree on DeMeco. We also agree on Mario defining this draft. Only problem is, you have already made up your mind about Mario. Decided, by the way, after only three exhibition games in which Mario has had limited playing time."

My reply: If Mario is a two-to-three year project, as expressed in the article that started this thread, my point is we could have done better. He hasn't exactly looked like the second coming of Reggie White in the games I've watched. In fact, he doesn't appear to be able to shake blockers and hasn't done much other than a couple of tackles throughout this preseason. Meanwhile other rookies are making a tangible immediate impact, like the DL for the NY Giants. And, I know, you'll argue that Mario attracts so that other players on the defense can make plays. That's all well and fine. My point is, he shouldn't have been No. 1 overall. Period. And if we were going to take a project No. 1 overall, perhaps it should've been Vince Young. Otherwise we should have taken Reggie Bush.

I sure hope he makes some big time strides this season. If Bush goes off and becomes what everyone expects, and Mario struggles to get four sacks, the poor guy is going to get hammered in the press - no matter what you think about it. (And I sincerely hope I am wrong. I hope Mario turns out to be a destructive defensive juggernaut.) Bottom line - the Texans could have handled his selection better.[/QUOTE]

And you decided all this after limited action in three exhibition games?


:coffee:

Marcus
08-31-2006, 05:05 PM
texansfaninla - you waited all this time after the draft to go on a 'they should have drafted this guy, instead of that guy' rant?? You need some work in the 'it's over, it's done, now it's time to move on' department."

But if you insist on delving into this . . since you want to 'speculate' so bad, because that's all you're doing . . . let me give you my speculation, which, in itself will counter everything you've said as to why "they should have drafted better."

You speculate that they didn't really know who they were going to pick until the last couple of days. I submit to you that they did know who they were going to pick, which was Reggie . . . all the way up until a couple of days before, when the interview took place between Reggie Bush, and Mr. Gary Kubiak. And that meeting didn't go well. I don't think that meeting went well at all. I think Kubiak told Reggie what kind of runner he wanted him to be in his system. He wanted him to be a one cut and go runner, not the juking shake and bake artist that he was in college. And Mr. Bush, who thinks the word 'team' has the letter 'I' in it, probably responded in a manner that pissed Kubiak off.

And Kubiak went and told McNair how the meeting went . . . and the rest is history.

You wanna speculate? Well, by God, let's speculate.

thunderkyss
08-31-2006, 05:11 PM
I disagree with the full-time DT business. Supposedly this is just preseason experimentation, and perhaps he can be effective there during short-yardage situations, but IMO Mario belongs at DE and I'm sure we'll see him there alot more during the regular season.

Right now, Mario is our best DT...... with maybe the exception of TJ. Robair isn't getting it done....... run or pass, and Payne doesn't appear to have the strength to push the OG back. I like his motor, he never gives up on a play, but he hasn't seen the backfield all preseason(but it is preseason).

Babin, right now, is clearly our best DE.... don't be a homer, you know it's true. Mario is bigger, should be stronger, but so far, Jason appears to be more explosive, and quicker at getting to the QB.

It don't mean nothing, but my opinion is our best line would be Babin, Mario, TJ, Peek.

I don't deny that Mario can be soooo much more than what Babin is. & one day he will be a beast, and better than Babin. But then Jason would be our second best DE.

I'm more upset at signing Weaver than signing Mario though. To me, Mario makes sense. I'm good with that.

But Weaver....... OUr best DEs right now, is Babin, Kalu, Mario, Peek, Cochran, Weaver....... that's the way I see it.

I haven't seen Weaver stop a run as a tackle, or an end........ so I really don't see the benefit, of the signing, or the big money we're giving him.

thunderkyss
08-31-2006, 05:16 PM
Quick , agile 300lb men are worth their weght in gold ... it really does'nt matter where you put him as long as he disrupts . Why take Vince when you could get Cutler ?

Trading down to get Cutler........... now that would've been cool.

michaelm
08-31-2006, 05:19 PM
I will say this again.

The Texans are the one team that visited, interviewed, and researched Reggie Bush.
And he Texans are the one team that passed on him.

Hell, the team that picked him, reportedly never even sent a represenative for a visit because they assumed he wouldn't be there.

The team that had the most informtion about RB is the one team that passed on him...


It might mean nothing, but then again, it might mean everything...

real
08-31-2006, 05:20 PM
Right now, Mario is our best DT...... with maybe the exception of TJ. Robair isn't getting it done....... run or pass, and Payne doesn't appear to have the strength to push the OG back. I like his motor, he never gives up on a play, but he hasn't seen the backfield all preseason(but it is preseason).

Babin, right now, is clearly our best DE.... don't be a homer, you know it's true. Mario is bigger, should be stronger, but so far, Jason appears to be more explosive, and quicker at getting to the QB.

It don't mean nothing, but my opinion is our best line would be Babin, Mario, TJ, Peek.

I don't deny that Mario can be soooo much more than what Babin is. & one day he will be a beast, and better than Babin. But then Jason would be our second best DE.

I'm more upset at signing Weaver than signing Mario though. To me, Mario makes sense. I'm good with that.

But Weaver....... OUr best DEs right now, is Babin, Kalu, Mario, Peek, Cochran, Weaver....... that's the way I see it.

I haven't seen Weaver stop a run as a tackle, or an end........ so I really don't see the benefit, of the signing, or the big money we're giving him.

If you think Weaver is doing a bad job at SDE you would absolutely have a heart attack with Peek or Babin playing that position, because not only would they not make any tackles they would probably both be injured by half time...

Weaver has done a good job...He has done his Job...that is why I wanted him at SDE and Mario at WDE, because the primary job of a SDE is to not get pushed back and to take up blocks...Weakside DE needs to have more agility, speed, quickness...Because they are the ones you count on for pass rushing, coming down the line on plays away, and boot legs...all of which require speed, agility, and quickness....Think of SDE like a rock...and that is what weaver has been...And by moving Mario to WDE it allows him to take advantage of his best attributes...Kubiak did the right thing and Weaver, TJ, Payne/Robaire, Mario is by far our best line...

*AW is the best SDE that we have...better than Mario...Mario is the best WDE we have...Better than peek and babin...combined...

HOU-TEX
08-31-2006, 05:26 PM
Right now, Mario is our best DT...... with maybe the exception of TJ. Robair isn't getting it done....... run or pass, and Payne doesn't appear to have the strength to push the OG back. I like his motor, he never gives up on a play, but he hasn't seen the backfield all preseason(but it is preseason).

Babin, right now, is clearly our best DE.... don't be a homer, you know it's true. Mario is bigger, should be stronger, but so far, Jason appears to be more explosive, and quicker at getting to the QB.

It don't mean nothing, but my opinion is our best line would be Babin, Mario, TJ, Peek.

I don't deny that Mario can be soooo much more than what Babin is. & one day he will be a beast, and better than Babin. But then Jason would be our second best DE.

I'm more upset at signing Weaver than signing Mario though. To me, Mario makes sense. I'm good with that.

But Weaver....... OUr best DEs right now, is Babin, Kalu, Mario, Peek, Cochran, Weaver....... that's the way I see it.

I haven't seen Weaver stop a run as a tackle, or an end........ so I really don't see the benefit, of the signing, or the big money we're giving him.

Have I missed something here? How many sacks does Babin have vs Peek?:confused:

Wolf
08-31-2006, 05:28 PM
So basically, this guy is saying that Mario will be a 2-3 year project? Great No. 1 overall pick...especially when (a) Davis' knee is shot, and (b) Carr looks like a high school freshman at QB. If we were going to take a project as the No. 1 overall pick, we should have taken Vince Young. Otherwise we should have taken Reggie Bush. Aside from that, we should have traded down to take Mario, because he still would have been available.


I honestly didnt' read the other posts.. if it takes 2-3 years to be a project and he develops into a good player, so be it..baring injury Mario has still 10 years in the league left in him.. Bush..well maybe 3-4 real productive, because speed will slow, mario will still have size and strength (baring a shoulder injury)to keep collapsing the pocket (from what we have seen in preseason so far.

on the flip side..heck both players don't develop.. look at the 2002 1st round draft.. roy williams is about the only SUPERSTAR from that draft.

texansfaninla
08-31-2006, 05:28 PM
Yes, let's speculate. Let's say the Texans drafted Bush. Let's say he bought into the one cut system. And let's say, for the fun of it, that Domanick Davis can't play this year. Wouldn't that be a perfect fit? Bush is better than Lundy talent-wise, and his stats in the Texans' system would show that. Plus he's the consensus No. 1 - no debate.

Let's say the Texans drafted Vince. He is learning behind Carr, or behind someone like Rosenfels if the Texans had chosen not to re-up Carr. IF - Rosenfels ends up being the starter anyway, would you rather have a washed up Carr or a preparing Vince? Plus, Vince is the hometown hero.

Let's say the Texans traded down and drafted Mario. They got some extra picks or an extra solid player, and they don't take as big a contract hit. Mario turns out to be a 2 year project, without the weight of being the top overall pick taken ahead of the consensus No. 1 and the hometown hero.

Or, let's say the Texans take Mario first overall, and he turns out to be a 2 year project. That's it. Plus, he gets taken ahead of the consensus No. 1 and the hometown hero.

What would you think is the best scenario?

AND THIS IS ALL SPECULATING on the comments made in the initial article that started this thread, which state that Mario could be a 2-3 year project. IF HE'S NOT, AND GOD WILLING, HE IS A BEAST OF BEASTS, then great!!!

(Edit - I'll add - let's say the Texans take Mario first overall, and he turns out to be the best defensive lineman in the league for 10 years. GREAT!!!)

HOU-TEX
08-31-2006, 05:31 PM
If you think Weaver is doing a bad job at SDE you would absolutely have a heart attack with Peek or Babin playing that position, because not only would they not make any tackles they would probably both be injured by half time...

Weaver has done a good job...He has done his Job...that is why I wanted him at SDE and Mario at WDE, because the primary job of a SDE is to not get pushed back and to take up blocks...Weakside DE needs to have more agility, speed, quickness...Because they are the ones you count on for pass rushing, coming down the line on plays away, and boot legs...all of which require speed, agility, and quickness....Think of SDE like a rock...and that is what weaver has been...And by moving Mario to WDE it allows him to take advantage of his best attributes...Kubiak did the right thing and Weaver, TJ, Payne/Robaire, Mario is by far our best line...

*AW is the best SDE that we have...better than Mario...Mario is the best WDE we have...Better than peek and babin...combined...

You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Sorry bud, I'll catch up with ya later. That's my idea of the D-line as well. I might keep subing in Peek/Babin on obvious pass plays like they have been. Which I think has been when Peek has gotten his sacks.:shades:

real
08-31-2006, 05:33 PM
You have given out too much Reputation in the last 24 hours, try again later.

Sorry bud, I'll catch up with ya later. That's my idea of the D-line as well. I might keep subing in Peek/Babin on obvious pass plays like they have been. Which I think has been when Peek has gotten his sacks.:shades:

Of course....Peek and Babin should see spot duty, but on obvious passing downs both should always be in with Mario in the middle, and maybe TJ as the other...I wouldn't even mind on passing downs we went to the 3-4 and blitzed a linebacker....

Wolf
08-31-2006, 05:33 PM
speculaton.. there was no trading down.. N.O.(rumored) would have taken mario at #1.. and on top of that .. did N.O. really need Bush with the backs they had? don't think so.

besides rumored N.O. tried to trade #2 overall to Jets for their #4 and #20ish pick. Jets said no...

on that, that stuck with me.. if Bush was so great and a once in a lifetime talent, no team wanted to part with multiple picks?

give me Adrian Peterson over Bush.

thunderkyss
08-31-2006, 05:37 PM
BS. I don't think they really gave it an earnest shot to get a trade down to the middle 10. Maybe they put feelers out during the last couple of days, but if they had wanted to move down they could have.

There is no way Mario would have been around past the 2nd pick. N.O. was going to take him. N.O. had no intention of drafting a LB....... they didn't. They had no idea they had LB problems..... before the draft, they picked up Fujita, and figured he would solve their problem. Come Preseason, and they put their LB group out their, then all of a sudden, they go crazy looking for a LBs..... they get another one from Dallas(Shanle) then trade their Young studd WR for a backup on most teams...... they were even willing to give up a 4th next year for Edwards out of SanDiego.

but they didn't look at one LB in the draft........... not one.

All indications are that Mario would not have been taken by the Saints (AJ Hawk would've been their pick).

see above

As for Cutler, again the Texans could have easily traded out of the top 10 if they so desired.

If we'd have traded past 11, Denver would have taken Cutler, and we'd have really looked like idiots....... we would have had to stay in the top 10 to get Cutler. Even if we dropped to 11, I think the Broncs would've moved up to 9 or 10 to get him.

The fact that (a) they wanted Mario to be 1st overall without thinking about the intense scrutiny he will be under as arguably the most surprising top pick in NFL history, along with (b) the fact that they knew Davis' knee wasn't healing, and (c) Mathis had injuries from that motorcycle accident, and

ONly the Saints...... and some fans are dumb enough to use their #1 or #2 overall on punt returns......

(d) that Carr hasn't exactly been No. 1 overall-worthy himself...I mean, it's so overwhelmingly apparent they botched this thing. Mario has to be an absolute stud to justify the decision. It's unfair to him, and it's unfair to the fans.

He may very well be a stud.......... this year..... we haven't even got out of the Preseason yet.


Bush would have been nice as to take some pressure off Carr.


I thought we said we could accomplish that by getting a bonafide #2 reciever, and pass catching tightends....

How's that working out for us??

Brandon420tx
08-31-2006, 05:37 PM
Yes, let's speculate. Let's say the Texans drafted Bush. Let's say he bought into the one cut system. And let's say, for the fun of it, that Domanick Davis can't play this year. Wouldn't that be a perfect fit? Bush is better than Lundy talent-wise, and his stats in the Texans' system would show that. Plus he's the consensus No. 1 - no debate.

Let's say the Texans drafted Vince. He is learning behind Carr, or behind someone like Rosenfels if the Texans had chosen not to re-up Carr. IF - Rosenfels ends up being the starter anyway, would you rather have a washed up Carr or a preparing Vince? Plus, Vince is the hometown hero.

Let's say the Texans traded down and drafted Mario. They got some extra picks or an extra solid player, and they don't take as big a contract hit. Mario turns out to be a 2 year project, without the weight of being the top overall pick taken ahead of the consensus No. 1 and the hometown hero.

Or, let's say the Texans take Mario first overall, and he turns out to be a 2 year project. That's it. Plus, he gets taken ahead of the consensus No. 1 and the hometown hero.

What would you think is the best scenario?

AND THIS IS ALL SPECULATING on the comments made in the initial article that started this thread, which state that Mario could be a 2-3 year project. IF HE'S NOT, AND GOD WILLING, HE IS A BEAST OF BEASTS, then great!!!

(Edit - I'll add - let's say the Texans take Mario first overall, and he turns out to be the best defensive lineman in the league for 10 years. GREAT!!!)


So we have about 3 straight speculation posts...

My turn!

Lets speculate that I didn't read those speculation posts, then I would have about 10 minutes of my life back.

But, it is what it is.

/end rant... very small ... rant ...

HOU-TEX
08-31-2006, 05:37 PM
speculaton.. there was no trading down.. N.O.(rumored) would have taken mario at #1.. and on top of that .. did N.O. really need Bush with the backs they had? don't think so.

besides rumored N.O. tried to trade #2 overall to Jets for their #4 and #20ish pick. Jets said no...

on that, that stuck with me.. if Bush was so great and a once in a lifetime talent, no team wanted to part with multiple picks?

give me Adrian Peterson over Bush.

Give me Lundy and Morency over Bush...Doh..we already have them.:redtowel:

joetexan
08-31-2006, 05:41 PM
Me too. I'd rather have Lundy. That guy is a touchdown machine. How many did he score in college - 52, I think.

Mario is going to be the real deal. He's been testing himself out this preseason on different techniques. When the games mean something, look out.

As a side note, I think the Texans are good for 9 or 10 wins this year. Laugh at that, but they are going to be much improved.

Especially on defense.

Because of Mario.

Thank God we didn't draft Bush.

Can I buy a Wali Lundy jersey anywhere?

real
08-31-2006, 05:43 PM
I don't think Bush gets enough credit...People look at Bush as a running back, and IMO, that isn't fair...I think Bush, Leinart, and V.Young all went to perfect situations...Bush because he doesn't have to be that RB that carries the ball 25 times because they have Duece...look at Bush as an offensive weapon..not really a reciever, not really a tru RB...I believe that Saints will get Bush the ball in a whole lot of different ways....IMO, he will be one of the most lethal offensive weapons in two years....Adrian Peterson, is by far a better RB than Reggie Bush is...But RB is by far a more valuable offensive weapon....This is 2006 and people still can't grasp the fact that you don't have to fit into a certain mold to be successful...Use your heads people...They are not going to give the ball to Reggie to run up the middle 20 times a game...thats what Duece is for...

thunderkyss
08-31-2006, 05:43 PM
*AW is the best SDE that we have...better than Mario...Mario is the best WDE we have...Better than peek and babin...combined...

It's just the preseason, but so far, that's all I've got to go on. Right now, Babin is a better DE than either Mario or Weaver. Peek is better on the weekside, but I don't know about playing him every down.

Mario is our best Tackle, and I can't find a spot for Weaver.

real
08-31-2006, 05:46 PM
It's one thing to say you'd rather have Mario because he helps our team more, and Bush didn't fit our offense....But i'm tired of this crap about Lundy being better, and Bush being a dud....get off of it people...he is an amazing talent, just as Mario is...Lundy is a good back that will probably look better than what he is because of the system...

real
08-31-2006, 05:48 PM
It's just the preseason, but so far, that's all I've got to go on. Right now, Babin is a better DE than either Mario or Weaver. Peek is better on the weekside, but I don't know about playing him every down.

Mario is our best Tackle, and I can't find a spot for Weaver.

Tkyss...That is absolute lunacy...i am glad Kubiak doesn't think like that...You think Babin is better than Mario at DE ? thats ridiculous...They don't even run to Mario's side...and when the run towards Weaver they run into a wall...I love our line just as is...

thunderkyss
08-31-2006, 05:48 PM
...Bush because he doesn't have to be that RB that carries the ball 25 times because they have Duece...look at Bush as an offensive weapon..not really a reciever, not really a tru RB......


That's all fine and Dandy....... but let someone else use the #1 overall on such a player.

It has never been done in the NFL, not in the history of the draft.

Runningbacks run, Recievers recieve, and Quarterbacks quarter.

If we'd have picked Reggie, and his year turns out to be what his preseason has shown, then all those experts would have turned on us, and picking Reggie would have been the all time draft blunder.

if everything works out, and he looks like he did @ USC, then everything would have been everything.......

real
08-31-2006, 05:52 PM
That's all fine and Dandy....... but let someone else use the #1 overall on such a player.

It has never been done in the NFL, not in the history of the draft.

Runningbacks run, Recievers recieve, and Quarterbacks quarter.

If we'd have picked Reggie, and his year turns out to be what his preseason has shown, then all those experts would have turned on us, and picking Reggie would have been the all time draft blunder.

if everything works out, and he looks like he did @ USC, then everything would have been everything.......

Im not in the "we should have picked Reggie camp"...

People are really losing touch with reality around here...

Reggie is not going to be a bust...You heard it from xtru first....

And maybe you missed my point...Reggie isn't a true anything...But he is going to be a top 5 threat as an offensive weapon in two years...

JDizzle
08-31-2006, 05:55 PM
Right now, Mario is our best DT...... with maybe the exception of TJ. Robair isn't getting it done....... run or pass, and Payne doesn't appear to have the strength to push the OG back. I like his motor, he never gives up on a play, but he hasn't seen the backfield all preseason(but it is preseason).

Babin, right now, is clearly our best DE.... don't be a homer, you know it's true. Mario is bigger, should be stronger, but so far, Jason appears to be more explosive, and quicker at getting to the QB.

It don't mean nothing, but my opinion is our best line would be Babin, Mario, TJ, Peek.

I don't deny that Mario can be soooo much more than what Babin is. & one day he will be a beast, and better than Babin. But then Jason would be our second best DE.


You missed my point. I never said he's the best DE we have right now. I just said he needs to play there. You can't expect Mario to become a top-shelf DE without giving him time and reps there in order for him to learn the nuances of the position. He can't do that by taking most of his snaps at DT.

HOU-TEX
08-31-2006, 05:56 PM
It's one thing to say you'd rather have Mario because he helps our team more, and Bush didn't fit our offense....But i'm tired of this crap about Lundy being better, and Bush being a dud....get off of it people...he is an amazing talent, just as Mario is...Lundy is a good back that will probably look better than what he is because of the system...

Exactly, I believe "the system" is the reason why RB is not here. I care about RB about as much as I care to suck a fart out of a dead chickens arse right now. The draft was over 4-5 months ago. I care about the Texans right now, that's it! :yahoo:

edo783
08-31-2006, 07:14 PM
IMO, Our best D-line for downs 1&2:

Weaver, TJ, Smith/Payne, Williams

Best pass D-line:

Babin, TJ/Weaver/Payne, Williams, Peak

BigDTexansFan
08-31-2006, 07:18 PM
So basically, this guy is saying that Mario will be a 2-3 year project? Great No. 1 overall pick...especially when (a) Davis' knee is shot, and (b) Carr looks like a high school freshman at QB. If we were going to take a project as the No. 1 overall pick, we should have taken Vince Young. Otherwise we should have taken Reggie Bush. Aside from that, we should have traded down to take Mario, because he still would have been available.


Vince Young WAS AND IS a 2-3 year project UNLESS you do like University of Texas and trash playbook and only put in plays he can understand (god forbid he should have to read coverages), I have never heard of this guy (guess could say don't know Adam from Adam...LOL) so why are we supposed to take his word for anything. He sounds like an ESPN hack to me or just another OIO (Over-Inflated Opinion):cool:

edo783
08-31-2006, 07:21 PM
IMO, the reason that the Texans didn't take Bush was that in the interview he and his agent both acted like Putz's and also lied about what was going on with his family and then on the Tuesday before the draft while doing their due dillagence and background checks of him, they learned that the New Era Sports Group that he and his family are/were mixed up with was backed and funded by Lloyd Lakes a very well known gangster in Southern California who is now in jail on unrelated charges. Bob McNair and Kubiak wont go anywhere near someone mixed up/close to a gangster. They dropped him like a hot potato on the Wednesday before the draft and zeroed in on Mario and concluded the deal.

blockhead83
08-31-2006, 07:59 PM
I agree with what was said about Mario having too much speed and range to use him as a DT. He makes a much more effective DE on a down-to-down basis, IMO. On passing downs, he makes a good DT in that he requires extra attention and allows our edge rushers to get single coverage.

Why select Reggie Bush, a running back, with the first pick of the draft when you have a proven system that can get GREAT production with a late round talent? If you can get a Porsche for 5 bucks, or a Ferrari for 250,000, most people would buy the Porsche unless you had nothing better to blow your cash on. You're spending much more than you are relatively gaining by drafting a back like Bush in the 1st as opposed to a guy like Lundy.

Vince Young is looking like a real project in Tennessee right now. Carr isn't looking great, but I have faith that Kubiak can do as he intended and get enough production from him to make our offense effective. Rather than playing the waiting game for another 3 years with such a crucial position, we're seeing what we really have at QB this year.

Mario was the best choice. It was a foregone conclusion that NO was going to take him if we didn't. He was the consensus best defensive player by GM's across the league, aside of maybe 4 or 5 who liked Hawk. We had a piss poor defense last year, and by the looks of things so far this pre-season, our selections of Mario and Demeco have already helped catalyze a huge improvement defensively. We're going to get burned by some big plays, but on the whole we're probably going to jump up about 10 spots or more in the defensive rankings, IMO. And btw, I don't think Mario is truely a "project" for the next 3 years. The end point of a "project" is usually a solid player, not a player who dominates. Mario is a solid DE for us right off the bat, but he has the potential to become one of the dominant DE's in the league in the next few seasons. That's a great gamble to take from where I'm sitting.

BigDTexansFan
08-31-2006, 09:04 PM
Why is it such a bitter pill to swallow for some folks if Coach Kubiak wanted Mario Williams? IT WAS HIS DECISION. Kubiak's, not Casserly, not McNair, not the fans or media, but Kubiak's. He has said so in black and white terms on several occasions.

Bush and Young could very well be great NFL players - they certainly have the talent and potential - BUT SO DOES MARIO WILLIAMS.

Who would you rather have: Reggie White -or- Barry Sanders? Both HoF players, but one has a chance to make a much greater impact on your games, because if you have a dominant defense, the other team won't score as often (thus taking pressure off your offense).

Reggie White =2 rings

Barry Sanders = 0 rings


I prefer Reggie White (Mario):francis:

real
09-01-2006, 09:35 AM
Exactly, I believe "the system" is the reason why RB is not here. I care about RB about as much as I care to suck a fart out of a dead chickens arse right now. The draft was over 4-5 months ago. I care about the Texans right now, that's it! :yahoo:

I wouldn't even go that far...In fact, i think RB would look better in our system than any back we have...But I think that as long as RB is in the NFL he is going to need another RB that is capable of at least sharing the load...He is not an all game every down back...But he can be on the field all game, and IMO, that is what counts....

thunderkyss
09-03-2006, 09:15 PM
You missed my point. I never said he's the best DE we have right now. I just said he needs to play there. You can't expect Mario to become a top-shelf DE without giving him time and reps there in order for him to learn the nuances of the position. He can't do that by taking most of his snaps at DT.


You missed my point. I know we need him learning to play DE.... but right now, we need him at DT more than we need him at DE.

I agree. we don't need make Mario a swingman. & I never liked moving our best player out of position on the offensive line, to cover up a weakness elsewhere on the line. Thereby weakening two positions. But situationally moving Mario around would be just as confusing as a real 3-4 line-up.

DocBar
09-03-2006, 10:27 PM
Why are so many rehashing the draft? Mario hasn't turned into Reggie White since TC started and RB and VY aren't Walter Payton and Joe Montana reincarnated. I bet all 3 wish they had better performances this preseason. Probably the 1st time in their young lives they weren't the best players on the field. IMHO, the FO had pretty legit reasons for drafting the way they did, and I'm pretty dang happy with the product I saw this preseason.
:cowboy1: :francis: :cowboy1: