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eric138
08-28-2006, 12:58 PM
I watched the game and it wasn't the performance I wanted but after listening to the coach about certain situations and the inter-game changes made and how Carr came through to get his stats up was an entirely different game than anyone of the ones last year. His stats were better than Plummers and he isn't being kicked in the nuts.

Carr - 15/22 for 128yrds
Plummer - 10/22 for 96yrds

shoot, Rosenfels 10/15, 96yrds is better than Plummer.

Honestly, I feel that Kubes is holding many things being tested at practice to the minimum. I think they run through a play design but they don't fully "execute" it and then just dump to one of the backs. I have a good feeling on Sept 10th a new team will arise and the Eagles will not know what to do.:redtowel:

the wonger need food
08-28-2006, 01:04 PM
Honestly, I feel that Kubes is holding many things being tested at practice to the minimum. I think they run through a play design but they don't fully "execute" it and then just dump to one of the backs. I have a good feeling on Sept 10th a new team will arise and the Eagles will not know what to do.

Yeah, Um, this is what a lot of people were saying last preseason. The offense is what you saw last night. We know it can be affective with the right QB and obviously Carr is not the right QB for this offense.

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 01:09 PM
There is no comparision to date. It is time for DC to earn that comparision by winning games and having a contribution to each win.

thunderkyss
08-28-2006, 01:19 PM
I watched the game and it wasn't the performance I wanted but after listening to the coach about certain situations and the inter-game changes made and how Carr came through to get his stats up was an entirely different game than anyone of the ones last year. His stats were better than Plummers and he isn't being kicked in the nuts.

Carr - 15/22 for 128yrds
Plummer - 10/22 for 96yrds

shoot, Rosenfels 10/15, 96yrds is better than Plummer.

Honestly, I feel that Kubes is holding many things being tested at practice to the minimum. I think they run through a play design but they don't fully "execute" it and then just dump to one of the backs. I have a good feeling on Sept 10th a new team will arise and the Eagles will not know what to do.:redtowel:

How many mistakes did Jake make last night??

go check out the Bronco's board the day after they lost the AFC Championship game(can you believe David said National Championship game?? lol)

There were a lot of guys lining up to kick Jake in the gnads........

SESupergenius
08-28-2006, 01:33 PM
Jake Plummer reminded me of Neil O'Donnell that game. Still, Plummer is very good in that offense, just as Carr will be.

Texans_Chick
08-28-2006, 01:37 PM
Yeah, Um, this is what a lot of people were saying last preseason. The offense is what you saw last night. We know it can be affective with the right QB and obviously Carr is not the right QB for this offense.

3rd game in the preseason.

Read this summary:

Wiki on Plummer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jake_Plummer)

The similarities are pretty interesting to me.

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 01:39 PM
The only saving grace is from a statistical measure, but in my own opinion observations tell everything.

Take a look at Plummer's stats in each game his first pre season with Denver.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/schedule/DEN/2004

Hervoyel
08-28-2006, 01:45 PM
Yeah, Um, this is what a lot of people were saying last preseason. The offense is what you saw last night. We know it can be affective with the right QB and obviously Carr is not the right QB for this offense.

I think you are premature on that statement. At the midpoint of this season I'm going to make a call on that myself but I just don't believe you can say without a doubt that Carr isn't going to get any better at this before we even get out of the preseason games.

Week 8 maybe, preseason week 3? I don't think that's reasonable at all.

And yeah, I see things that concern me. I think you give him the regular season games to see what you really have here. At some point I may very well say "David Carr didn't work out and we need a QB" but if and when I finally say that I'm going to be absolutely positive I'm right and I won't be changing my mind or trying to jump back on any bandwagon. Not saying you are (you've been real consistent about hating Carr's game for some time)

afcman
08-28-2006, 01:45 PM
If the broncos get smart they will play Cutler. Mark my words....he's one to watch. I'm from TN now living in TX and still watch the Vols and Vanderbilt. My Mom's a big Titans fan and I told her, "You guys should pick Cutler not Young." during the draft. I knew we weren't going to get him.

SESupergenius
08-28-2006, 01:49 PM
Cutler looked the calmest of all the QB's on the field. He just looks like he has "it". Lienart seems to be doing a good job too.

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 01:56 PM
Cutler looked the calmest of all the QB's on the field. He just looks like he has "it". Lienart seems to be doing a good job too.

And that is the frustrating part SES for the people who have been on Carr for years and then see a new back up pick up a new scheme and look poised. This is just communicating some people's emotions and does not try to take your words and flip to them to anti-Carr.

Runner
08-28-2006, 01:58 PM
Cutler looked the calmest of all the QB's on the field. He just looks like he has "it". Lienart seems to be doing a good job too.

Probably because Cutler's team was overmatched and he was under pressure though most of his college career. Good training if you live through it.

texflex513
08-28-2006, 01:59 PM
SNAKES IN A CARR??:tease:

Meloy
08-28-2006, 02:01 PM
I think Kubes will start the Qb that gives the team the best chance for a win. If that is Carr, great. If that is Sage , great. If it ain't Sage, then the coach picked the wrong guy. Carr isn't the same. Most NFL people that we were made aware of prior to the draft thought Carr could take the team to SB. Kubiac would have been a fool to dump Carr in a trade. I also think Carr should be looking better. I do not think Sage can be compared until after the last game of pre as he is to play a lot against 1st & with his 1st. McNair handed Qubes the reins. I will let him make call without my boos for at least a few games into the season. I repeat, I think Carr has to play better and I think he will.

fastpitchwoof
08-28-2006, 02:01 PM
Yeah, Um, this is what a lot of people were saying last preseason. The offense is what you saw last night. We know it can be affective with the right QB and obviously Carr is not the right QB for this offense.

Carr is going to be fine. Will he be the #1 QB in the league? I doubt it. He doesn't have to be. All Carr need to do is run the offense. I believe he will be able to do this.

Let's look at what happened last night. About as bad a start as possible. Most people would have just crumbled. I was depressed after the interception. I told my son, "Well, thats it. He's done. He won't make another good decision for the rest of the night." What did he do? Nothing but lead the team on a 70 yard 16 play drive that should have ended in 7. Penalties screwed the drive. Even though we only got 3 points I then was impressed with how Carr regrouped himself and got the team going. This was some mental toughness that not everybody has. How many other QBs would have just seemingly erased the horrid start and drove the team down the field like that. Brady, Farve, Palmer, Rothlisburger, Manning (ugh) maybe a few others. How about Plummer? Nope. Culpepper? Maybe. Bledsoe? Doubt it.

My point here is not to say that Carr is a Brady or a Palmer or a Manning but he does have something to work with. Remember Kubiak advised that the Texans should sign Carr to that extension. Most believe that Kubiak knows what he doing so I am going to give Kubiak and Carr a chance to make it work before I pass judgement.

afcman
08-28-2006, 02:08 PM
I am going to give Kubiak and Carr a chance to make it work before I pass judgement.

Yep, me too. (For this season)

cuppacoffee
08-28-2006, 02:09 PM
I think you are premature on that statement. At the midpoint of this season I'm going to make a call on that myself but I just don't believe you can say without a doubt that Carr isn't going to get any better at this before we even get out of the preseason games.

Week 8 maybe, preseason week 3? I don't think that's reasonable at all.

And yeah, I see things that concern me. I think you give him the regular season games to see what you really have here. At some point I may very well say "David Carr didn't work out and we need a QB" but if and when I finally say that I'm going to be absolutely positive I'm right and I won't be changing my mind or trying to jump back on any bandwagon. Not saying you are (you've been real consistent about hating Carr's game for some time)

My sentiments exactly. I haven't given up on Carr yet, but I may also agree later this year that "David Carr didn't work out and we need a QB", but not yet.

fastpitchwoof
08-28-2006, 02:13 PM
Hey afcman is that an Eddie Van Halen guitar?? He was one the best ever.

thunderkyss
08-28-2006, 02:14 PM
Cutler looked the calmest of all the QB's on the field. He just looks like he has "it". Lienart seems to be doing a good job too.

I've seen that he understands it...... but I haven't seen that he has it.......

afcman
08-28-2006, 02:16 PM
Hey afcman is that an Eddie Van Halen guitar?? He was one the best ever.

Yeah,...... still is. Just too bad he's run everybody away from him. It's really sad.

(But back to the game......:yahoo: )

FSUBulldog
08-28-2006, 02:20 PM
Carr is going to be fine. Will he be the #1 QB in the league? I doubt it. He doesn't have to be. All Carr need to do is run the offense. I believe he will be able to do this.

Let's look at what happened last night. About as bad a start as possible. Most people would have just crumbled. I was depressed after the interception. I told my son, "Well, thats it. He's done. He won't make another good decision for the rest of the night." What did he do? Nothing but lead the team on a 70 yard 16 play drive that should have ended in 7. Penalties screwed the drive. Even though we only got 3 points I then was impressed with how Carr regrouped himself and got the team going. This was some mental toughness that not everybody has. How many other QBs would have just seemingly erased the horrid start and drove the team down the field like that. Brady, Farve, Palmer, Rothlisburger, Manning (ugh) maybe a few others. How about Plummer? Nope. Culpepper? Maybe. Bledsoe? Doubt it.

My point here is not to say that Carr is a Brady or a Palmer or a Manning but he does have something to work with. Remember Kubiak advised that the Texans should sign Carr to that extension. Most believe that Kubiak knows what he doing so I am going to give Kubiak and Carr a chance to make it work before I pass judgement.

I agree with this assessment. I watched David struggle last night. I also watched him do some good things, too. I admit that his numbers look better than he looked for a majority of the time he was in.

That said...

We knew that this was going to be a rebuilding year for the Texans and that it would take David (or any similar QB) at least a year to get comfortable in this system.

A year....Not a preseason... Hell, even the Carr-haters acknowledged this prior to the start of preseason.

It is dissapointing to see knowledgeable fans throwing him under the bus after approximately 5-6 quarters of action this year. Not games, but QUARTERS... Give it some time to work, people. If he shows no progress after this season, then I agree he needs to be religated to clipboard duty.

TexansCM
08-28-2006, 02:21 PM
Carr, will run the offense well at some point this season, will it be week 1, I hope but probably not. Everyone continues to say Carr doesn't look relaxed in the pocket, well 4 years of getting knocked on your can will do that to you. The Oline needs to earn Carr's confidence. He has faced about 5 quarters of live action with the line in front of him, not nearly enough time to be relaxed behind the Texans line.

Hervoyel
08-28-2006, 02:22 PM
I've seen that he understands it...... but I haven't seen that he has it.......

That's correct. They must be thinking of Michael Vick (AKA our pal, Ron Mexico).

He's the one who "has it" and can't get rid of it. I hear it can be treated though.

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 02:30 PM
Relative quote from a Rookie RB, Wali Lundy.
(general) “(The running backs) are going to be a big part of our offensive. I expect a lot of myself so whatever anyone expects of me can’t be as much. Mentally, I just need to be prepared.”

(on learning the offense) “I’m pretty much getting it but there are some tweaks that I am still learning.”

(on Broncos Defense) “They knew all the plays and all of the audibles. They had an edge. In the end they have to stop the plays and I have to be a playmaker.”

Granted RB and QB are two different positions. But between Pat Hill's great FSU, similar NFL offense, four years in the NFL and one training camp under two HC's I would expect DC's ramp time to be a little shorter than one year. If Kubiak had a crystal ball and it told him that DC would take one more year to understand this system I doubt he would have recommended an extension. That's right I thought outside of the box and went crystal ball on y'all.

Hervoyel
08-28-2006, 02:32 PM
...That's right I thought outside of the box and went crystal ball on y'all.


Not fair. All I have to counter that with is a Magic 8 Ball. I ask it how long Carr will take to start performing in this offense and it says "Ask Again Later"

NFLforher
08-28-2006, 02:38 PM
[QUOTE=Kaiser Toro]

But between Pat Hill's great FSU, similar NFL offense, four years in the NFL and one training camp under two HC's I would expect DC's ramp time to be a little shorter than one year. QUOTE]


I agree. I hope he will "mentally" get it as he is making too many mistakes.

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 02:39 PM
Not fair. All I have to counter that with is a Magic 8 Ball. I ask it how long Carr will take to start performing in this offense and it says "Ask Again Later"

Touche, the Magic 8 Ball is a guiding light in these uncertain times.

Texans_Chick
08-28-2006, 02:39 PM
Granted RB and QB are two different positions. But between Pat Hill's great FSU, similar NFL offense, four years in the NFL and one training camp under two HC's I would expect DC's ramp time to be a little shorter than one year. If Kubiak had a crystal ball and it told him that DC would take one more year to understand this system I doubt he would have recommended an extension. That's right I thought outside of the box and went crystal ball on y'all.


You will not like this quote last year from Shanahan (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=334&storyID=4586), talking about the learning curve for the offense for QBs:

Usually a quarterback going into his third year is the true evaluation of a quarterback in a new system with a good feel of the offense, understanding the terminology, understanding the system, understanding the supporting cast, the skill around him. It gives him an opportunity to have a great year and we’ll get a chance to evaluate that as the year goes on.

I am guessing what he really meant to say was third preseason game.

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 02:41 PM
You will not like this quote last year from Shanahan (http://www.denverbroncos.com/page.php?id=334&storyID=4586), talking about the learning curve for the offense for QBs:



I am guessing what he really meant to say was third preseason game.

Which really makes no sense, since Plummer had his two greatest years in his first two years with the Broncos and then to add insult to stupidity Shanny drafts Cutler in Plummer's thrid year.

SESupergenius
08-28-2006, 02:42 PM
That's not to say that Denver can't be lead to the Super Bowl this year?

infantrycak
08-28-2006, 02:44 PM
Which really makes no sense, since Plummer had his two greatest years in his first two years with the Broncos and then to add insult to stupidity Shanny drafts Cutler in Plummer's thrid year.

Plummer had a ton of yards in 2004 but also had 20 INT's. Last year he 9 less TD's but 13 less INT's and the O was more consistant.

Texans_Chick
08-28-2006, 02:45 PM
The only saving grace is from a statistical measure, but in my own opinion observations tell everything.

Take a look at Plummer's stats in each game his first pre season with Denver.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/schedule/DEN/2004

His first preseason in Denver was 2003.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/schedule/DEN/2003

Honoring Earl 34
08-28-2006, 02:46 PM
:shoot: OK its a hard offense but why is Carr behind ... I know Sage is that guy from Harvard who aced the Wundelich .

Hey who gets a new avatar ?

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 02:49 PM
His first preseason in Denver was 2003.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/schedule/DEN/2003

Whiff! I need to search my Foootball History mental catalogue rather than my Fantasy one.

Still does no one any favors pointing to a difficult offense to execute in the first or second year, when his two best years were those first years with Denver. If anything Shanny showed the ability after year three to listen to the fans and draft a QB, while the Texans are in year five of the David Carr experiment. Its like a bad Federal Research grant that you can't kill.

infantrycak
08-28-2006, 02:54 PM
His first preseason in Denver was 2003.

http://www.nfl.com/teams/schedule/DEN/2003

So folks don't have to click thru it all:

Game 1 vs. Houston--3 of 5, 47 yds, 1 TD
Game 2 vs. Chicago--8 of 13, 117 yds, 1 INT
Game 3 vs. Indy--15 of 22, 205 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT
Game 4 didn't play

Total--26 of 40 (65%), 369 yds, 2 TD's, 2 INT's

Texans_Chick
08-28-2006, 03:00 PM
Whiff! I need to search my Foootball History mental catalogue rather than my Fantasy one.

Still does no one any favors pointing to a difficult offense to execute in the first or second year, when his two best years were those first years with Denver. If anything Shanny showed the ability after year three to listen to the fans and draft a QB, while the Texans are in year five of the David Carr experiment. Its like a bad Federal Research grant that you can't kill.

Plummer had the added benefit of coming to a place that already had a winning tradition, a supportive and knowledgable fan base, and players around him who knew the system.

Eventually, Carr is like any investment. Do you stick with it, or just declare it a sunk cost that you write off?

If the experiment works, well then, bravo Kubiak. If it doesn't, well there is always a system arm you can find down the road.

Honoring Earl 34
08-28-2006, 03:04 PM
So folks don't have to click thru it all:

Game 1 vs. Houston--3 of 5, 47 yds, 1 TD
Game 2 vs. Chicago--8 of 13, 117 yds, 1 INT
Game 3 vs. Indy--15 of 22, 205 yds, 1 TD, 1 INT
Game 4 didn't play

Total--26 of 40 (65%), 369 yds, 2 TD's, 2 INT's
Yeah but ... nevermind . My problem with Carr right now is he has a look (in the huddle )that my son gets when he's lost his homework .

FSUBulldog
08-28-2006, 03:05 PM
All I can say is that I am glad that Kubes doesn't fill out his depth chart based on the "HoustonTexans.com Message Board Gallup Poll". We've digressed to the point of referencing preseason fantasy stats from three seasons ago as some sort of barometer as to where DC should be in his development at this point. :francis:

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 03:07 PM
Plummer had the added benefit of coming to a place that already had a winning tradition, a supportive and knowledgable fan base, and players around him who knew the system.

Eventually, Carr is like any investment. Do you stick with it, or just declare it a sunk cost that you write off?

If the experiment works, well then, bravo Kubiak. If it doesn't, well there is always a system arm you can find down the road.

It would be more palatable of an arguement if he were not the 1st pick in the draft, if we did not pay him to perform at a much higher level, if we have not heard these excuses before, if we had seen something different now than in the past, if we had seen a glimpse of what success looks like, if other players had not improved. But all of these are quite real and tangible to people keeping their jobs.

Kubiak has done great and one huge piece of leadership is to exhibit an understanding that you will not always be right. The faster he shakes things up, the faster we may see Carr reach that potential that everyone is certain will just pop through the tunnel one day and say, "Here I am, thanks for waiting!"

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 03:09 PM
All I can say is that I am glad that Kubes doesn't fill out his depth chart based on the "HoustonTexans.com Message Board Gallup Poll". We've digressed to the point of referencing preseason fantasy stats from three seasons ago as some sort of barometer as to where DC should be in his development at this point. :francis:

Where are those fantasy stats? You must have just glossed over the thread and not digested it. Seems to be a standard operating procedure for the Fresno Fantasy Football Camp.

FSUBulldog
08-28-2006, 03:31 PM
Where are those fantasy stats? You must have just glossed over the thread and not digested it. Seems to be a standard operating procedure for the Fresno Fantasy Football Camp.

No, I followed it pretty well. You've made it pretty clear where you stand on the DC issue.... Over and over and over again... It's obvious that Kubiak should listen to a preseason stat comparison in deciding who should be our starting QB. If he would have done that prior to taking the job this winter, I'm sure we would not have picked up the $8M option. Hell, if the other handful of head coaching candidates would have done the same thing they, too, would be endorsing another QB.

Kubiak has it all wrong.
Sherman doesn't have a clue.
McNair is a baffoon.
They would be stupid not to consult this message board before making any personnel discisions.

I am just following the herd on this one. It must be something I picked up at "Fresno Fantasy Football Camp". I'm sure no one from Texas thinks you need to give it a rest...

jmerog
08-28-2006, 03:32 PM
That's right I thought outside of the box and went crystal ball on y'all.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kaiser Toro again.


haha! good one.

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 03:37 PM
No, I followed it pretty well. You've made it pretty clear where you stand on the DC issue.... Over and over and over again... It's obvious that Kubiak should listen to a preseason stat comparison in deciding who should be our starting QB. If he would have done that prior to taking the job this winter, I'm sure we would not have picked up the $8M option. Hell, if the other handful of head coaching candidates would have done the same thing they, too, would be endorsing another QB.

Kubiak has it all wrong.
Sherman doesn't have a clue.
McNair is a baffoon.
They would be stupid not to consult this message board before making any personnel discisions.

I am just following the herd on this one. It must be something I picked up at "Fresno Fantasy Football Camp". I'm sure no one from Texas thinks you need to give it a rest...

This is why is it difficult to deal with the Fresno Football Fantasy Campers. If you read the thread, I was posting stats on Plummer to show that many people who point to learning the "Denver" system takes time have some basis when looking at how Plummer progressed. Excuse me for trying to help whatever cause you are crusading for.

Face it, it is rough outside in the real world for Bulldog primadonnas.