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View Full Version : Mario Williams, the right choice after all !!!!!


Divebomb
08-27-2006, 03:13 AM
Well after viewing this Saturdays performance in the NFL, Mario must be looking even better to many of you previous non-believers. Vince looked much better but he still has problems with receivers actually catching the balls that hit them in the hands, and it would be a lot more fun to watch the guy if the coaches could be a little more creative with the play calling other than run up the middle twice and then passing the ball. I started getting Caper flashbacks (scary). Poor guy only had 6 completions out of 10 attempts (ONLY 10 ATTEMPTS WTF) for 96 yrds. Threw an interception. Note to Vince the next time you have to sit on the sideline while a team is putting together a 9:27 drive it might be smart to keep your arm warm so you can make that throw. Yea 9:27 min drive LOL, let me be the first to say we are taking both games against the Titans. Then you look at Reggie Bush. ESPN made it sound like the guy scored 13 tds and is a shoe in for ROY. ESPN, we are not blind, all we have to do is look at the play by play on NFL.com. 5 rushes 22 yards with a long of 14, so one 14 yard scamper (which is all over ESPN Highlight films lol) and 5 catches for 20 yards is deserving enough for mad props from ESPN?????????????. Bush looked great against the Titans but then again so did Cutler, and so did every player on the Falcons. Stats are a funny thing to look at. In the Falcons Titans game rookie Jerious Norwood had 9 carries for 104 yrds 1 TD with a long run of 62. I think the Texans are just fine without Reggie Bush. As for Mario we know what we get game in game out. This week we will get to see him go at it with the starters for 3 quarters so it should be interesting to see his progression. I think by far he is the best Rookie in this years crop. To come in with the team holding the worst record last year and actually be 2-0 going into the Denver game is awesome. Say what you want but we have been killing the run on Defense and a big factor of that success is coming from our Monster Super Freak O-Line Destroyer #90. Kubiak is bringing pride back into this city, what a heck of a Coach. Thanks Bob!

phantom17
08-27-2006, 03:19 AM
I totally agree with ya, Mario is da man!:redtowel: I hope this will be a great new era for the Texans! I'm really lookin' forward to this season!:redtowel: :poker:

Mysteryhunt
08-27-2006, 03:37 AM
im starting to believe that this draft year was one of those special ones that pushes a team into the playoff picture and possibly beyond. I mean name one bad pick we made. It's definitely not the norm to have all your picks pushing forstarting roles. I love this draft class and especially mario the beast.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-27-2006, 03:50 AM
Texans' Williams seemingly unfazed by hype of being No. 1 pick :mario:
12:09:11 EDT Aug 25, 2006
Canadian Press: KRISTIE RIEKEN

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/football/060825/f082526.html

HOUSTON (AP) - Mario Williams recently was photographed in a nightclub sporting a glittering diamond and platinum grill.

Soon after, the Houston Texans' No. 1 draft pick was shocked when a reporter inquired about the pricey removable mouthpiece-like creation made popular by rappers.

"How did you know about that?" he practically shrieked.

He was just as surprised when reporters learned he had bought the $1.5 million US house of a former local university president who was fired for allegedly refurbishing it with school money. And he was clueless as to why people cared so much about the removal of the toenails on his big toes.

Almost four months after the draft, the defensive end still hasn't gotten used to his celebrity status and professes to pay it no mind - which could be a good thing. Put in the unenviable position of living up to seemingly unreachable expectations, Williams might fare better if he maintains his naivete and isn't affected by outside influences.

He's got the weight of a young franchise that flopped to new depths last season on his shoulders. There's also the angst of fans who chanted "overrated" when he was drafted, many of whom remain upset that the Texans didn't nab Reggie Bush or Houston favourite Vince Young with their precious pick.

But the Texans are sure they made the right decision.

"He's going to be a success. OK. Trust us on that one," Houston defensive coordinator Richard Smith said. "He's a very talented man."

Williams is big (six-foot-seven, 292 pounds), fast (4.73 40-yard dash) and strong (35 repetitions on the 225-pound bench press). The Texans are counting on him becoming the disruptive pass rusher they've never had. He's projected to start at right end in Houston's new 4-3 defence, but has played all over the line in the Texans' first two pre-season games.

Williams acknowledged being a little too excited in his 11-play pre-season debut. He calmed down for his second outing and deflected a pass to force a punt, had a tackle for a loss and drew the Rams into two penalties.

He's trying not to do too much.

"Whatever happens, happens," he said. "I'm not worried about having to go out there and get the quarterback down three times. I want to. That's what I'm supposed to do. But I can't beat up on myself and beat myself down thinking about that all the time. I've just got to relax and just let it come."

Williams was raised in rural North Carolina and held down a job at the local Subway sandwich shop in high school. Smith attributes the 21-year-old's maturity and character to his upbringing.

"I like that he doesn't let the outside pressure influence him," Smith said. "I think he creates enough pressure on himself because he's a very prideful man, and I think that's more important than what somebody's writing about you or what they're saying about you."

The Texans, who had the second-worst defence in the league last season, need an immediate impact from Williams after making him the first defensive end taken No. 1 overall since Courtney Brown in 2000.

Texans coach Gary Kubiak believes he's well on his way.

"He's adhering to everything I've expected him to do," Kubiak said. "He works. He doesn't say a whole lot. He does his job, busts his tail. He's made people better around him because people are paying a lot of attention to him."

Kubiak attributed Antwan Peek's two sacks against St. Louis to the work Williams was doing on the inside. "He was really tying some people up, pushing the pocket, so he's definitely had an effect," he said.

Left end Anthony Weaver, a six-year veteran in his first year in Houston, has been impressed with Williams' demeanour and skills.

"He's one of those guys that just has that want-to attitude," Weaver said. "A guy with his athletic ability and his work ethic is going to be a special player for a long time around here."

Smith said Williams isn't where he needs to be yet, but that he believes he will get there. The question is how long the Texans will have to wait.

"We don't know," Smith said. "Right now he's playing very, very well and we're just very excited that we're able to have him on this football team."

Williams said his toughest transition to the NFL has been adjusting to the athleticism of the players he competes against, as well as moving around the line.

"I'm still fresh right now. I haven't pulled the plug yet," he said. "I'm still out there just basically running through things, just trying to get the feel. So once I finally get my technique down and turn things up I can really start to go out there and try to disrupt those double teams."

Picking a defensive lineman first in the draft has been a hit-or-miss proposition. Brown had a successful rookie season in Cleveland, but hasn't lived up to his potential after struggling with injuries almost every year since. He's currently recovering from knee surgery in his second season in Denver.

At the other end of the spectrum is Bruce Smith, the No. 1 pick in 1985, who played for 19 seasons and holds the NFL sacks record with 200. He was The Associated Press defensive player of the year twice and an 11-time Pro Bowl selection.

Williams is about three inches taller and 15 pounds heavier than Brown. They were both heralded for their pass-rushing skills after similar success in college, where they broke school records for tackles for losses and sacks.

"You have to be prepared and ready to contribute right away," Brown said. "I'm sure he's in camp being thrown a lot at him and learning as much as he can. I think Mario will be able to deal with it."

Brown said the pressure on a rookie defensive lineman is the same as that of a skill player on offence.

"You are asked to execute every play, every drill, just like a quarterback or running back," he said. "If you don't, you have a breakdown on defence. The mentality of a first-round defensive player is learning the defence quickly. You have to learn and execute."

While fans expect Williams to be as flashy on the field as his mouth jewelry is off it, Kubiak will be satisfied if he helps last year's worst team win.

"I just want him to do his job and it will make everybody on this team better," Kubiak said.

And Williams is prepared to do just that.

"I'm not here to focus on what people say," he said. "I'm just here to play football and help the team out."

-

AP Sports Writer Arnie Stapleton in Denver contributed to this report.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-27-2006, 03:57 AM
Football 2006: Texans Spotlight
Web Posted: 08/26/2006 05:09 PM CDT, San Antonio Express-News
http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/stories/MYSA082706.6Z.newtexansrole.b559c5.html


JASON BABIN
Defensive end
Babin has added about 25 pounds in his switch from outside linebacker in a 3-4 defense to defensive end in the 4-3. He claims he's much happier in this role, essentially the same one he starred in at Western Michigan, where he collected 30 sacks over his last two seasons. Babin and Antwan Peek are fighting for playing time at right end, but both should be on the field plenty in the Texans' eight-man defensive-line rotation. Babin was a first-round draft selection two years ago under Houston's old regime, and he's eager to show the new staff he is not as big a bust as he has appeared to date. Babin has six sacks over two seasons.


PHILLIP BUCHANON
Cornerback
Four years ago, the Oakland Raiders selected Buchanon in the NFL draft's first round, and it's pretty much been downhill since for the former Miami Hurricanes star. Before last season, the Texans traded second- and third-round selections for Buchanon, hoping he could provide another athletic corner to go with Dunta Robinson. He didn't. Buchanon routinely disappointed the Reliant Stadium crowd, and sometimes appeared to not even be trying to make the tackle, especially in one infamous play against the Steelers that many fans haven't forgotten. Under the new coaching staff, Buchanon has vowed that this year will be different, and he'll show he's worthy of his top-round selection in 2002. The Texans' response? We'll see.


CHARLES SPENCER
Offensive tackle
The talkative newcomer out of Pittsburgh says he hopes to become the NFL Rookie of the Year. The Texans are just hoping he can help cut down on the number of sacks of David Carr, who has served as a league punching bag over the last four seasons. Spencer is fighting veteran Seth Wand for the vital left tackle starting slot, which protects Carr's blindside. It's rare that a rookie would start in such a key role, but Houston doesn't have much choice. Its offensive line has long been a weakness with free agent and draft busts. But the Texans, especially Carr, are hoping Spencer, at 6-foot-4 and 350 pounds, is an answer for their ills.


- Brent Zwerneman

edo783
08-27-2006, 04:32 AM
Good finds dude. Thanks for the post.

edo783
08-27-2006, 04:39 AM
While I beleve Mario to have been the correct pick for us, it's still preseason and all these guys are rookies on what have been pretty lousy teams. I think we need to give them a couple of years before we slam or over praise any of them to much, Mario included. But, having said that, ESPNs constant puffing up of Bush irritates me to no end. They must think that they have the ability to change the reality of what happend because what they say vs what actually did happen, seems like an alternate univers thing.

texflex513
08-27-2006, 05:35 AM
Well after viewing this Saturdays performance in the NFL, Mario must be looking even better to many of you previous non-believers. Vince looked much better but he still has problems with receivers actually catching the balls that hit them in the hands, and it would be a lot more fun to watch the guy if the coaches could be a little more creative with the play calling other than run up the middle twice and then passing the ball. I started getting Caper flashbacks (scary). Poor guy only had 6 completions out of 10 attempts (ONLY 10 ATTEMPTS WTF) for 96 yrds. Threw an interception. Note to Vince the next time you have to sit on the sideline while a team is putting together a 9:27 drive it might be smart to keep your arm warm so you can make that throw. Yea 9:27 min drive LOL, let me be the first to say we are taking both games against the Titans. Then you look at Reggie Bush. ESPN made it sound like the guy scored 13 td’s and is a shoe in for ROY. ESPN, we are not blind, all we have to do is look at the play by play on NFL.com. 5 rushes 22 yards with a long of 14, so one 14 yard scamper (which is all over ESPN Highlight films lol) and 5 catches for 20 yards is deserving enough for mad props from ESPN?????????????. Bush looked great against the Titans but then again so did Cutler, and so did every player on the Falcons. Stats are a funny thing to look at. In the Falcons Titans game rookie Jerious Norwood had 9 carries for 104 yrds 1 TD with a long run of 62. I think the Texans are just fine without Reggie Bush. As for Mario we know what we get game in game out. This week we will get to see him go at it with the starters for 3 quarters so it should be interesting to see his progression. I think by far he is the best Rookie in this years crop. To come in with the team holding the worst record last year and actually be 2-0 going into the Denver game is awesome. Say what you want but we have been killing the run on Defense and a big factor of that success is coming from our Monster Super Freak O-Line Destroyer #90. Kubiak is bringing pride back into this city, what a heck of a Coach. Thanks Bob!

I had calmed down for a while but now im all hyped up again.:francis: I cant wait until sept 10th.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-27-2006, 05:40 AM
Gary Kubiak by the numbers
Web Posted: 08/26/2006 05:14 PM CDT
San Antonio Express-News

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/football/nfl/texans/stories/MYSA082706.7Z.numberstexans.152d7e9.html


6,190 Passing yards during his career at St. Pius High in Houston

6 Touchdown passes thrown against Rice his junior season at Texas A&M

1982 Year he earned All-Southwest Conference honors at Texas A&M

8 Round in which he was selected in the 1983 NFL Draft

119 Games he played as John Elway's backup with the Broncos

14 Touchdown passes thrown in that span

3,970 Passing yards for Elway in Kubiak's first season as Denver's offensive coordinator

465 Touchdowns Broncos tallied in his 11 seasons as coordinator

20 Years the native Texan has spent in Denver

3 Sons he has whose first name starts with "K"

-Brent Zwerneman

Jawja Texan
08-27-2006, 07:53 AM
How long will our starters play tonight? It is going to be so awesome to finally see a LIVE Texans preseason game over here in Georgia.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-27-2006, 07:57 AM
How long will our starters play tonight? It is going to be so awesome to finally see a LIVE Texans preseason game over here in Georgia.

I think that most are going 3 quarters.

Jawja Texan
08-27-2006, 08:17 AM
I think that most are going 3 quarters.

Thanks. I was hoping that they would go most of the game. I am so freakin' excited!!!!!!!!!

:yahoo:

AUSTexan
08-27-2006, 08:20 AM
How long will our starters play tonight? It is going to be so awesome to finally see a LIVE Texans preseason game over here in Georgia.

I'm with ya' on that one! This will be the only live Texans game I get to see all season in Boston... except the late december deep freeze I'm trying to get tickets for up here.

Then again, I might set up the DirecTV just to run the Sunday Ticket down into my media room... Wife might issue a veto though...

Malloy
08-27-2006, 08:22 AM
They must think that they have the ability to change the reality of what happend because what they say vs what actually did happen, seems like an alternate univers thing.

In the news-world of today, stuff being repeated usually ends up being concieved as being true, even though that is not the case. :)

95% of the stuff that comes out from ESPN is worthless...

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-27-2006, 08:30 AM
Thanks. I was hoping that they would go most of the game. I am so freakin' excited!!!!!!!!!



Yep. I think, at least for today, it's safe to say that your average Texans fan looks like this --->:francis:

South Texan
08-27-2006, 08:37 AM
Preseason games 3:

Reggie Bush, 10 touches for 44 yards and 1 fumble.
Vince Young, 6/10 for 96 yards and 1 int, 2 rushes for 14 yards.

While I don't doubt either of these two will get better, my faith in Kubiack's and the Front Office's decision making process took another huge jump. Early on, it sure doesn't appear Reggie or Vince would have been the miracle to turn things around from last season. Initially I was on the Reggie bandwagon, but now with my great 20/20 hindsight, I think I understand Kubiack's foresight. Don't draft talent for the sake of talent... draft to fill your greatest needs.

Tx'nFanLostInSkinCountry
08-27-2006, 09:00 AM
I also was a RB fan pre-draft, now I'm soooooo glad our coaches had the BRASS ones to see pass the ESPN hype machine. Guess thats why thay get the BIG BUCKS and I dont. IMO Bush is still going to be a good football player for a special teams unit or out in space coming out of the backfield but he will never be a 20+ carry per game back.JMO Hey is it me or have the NO/Tack fans stoped coming over to our MB.

Txn_in_Oki
08-27-2006, 09:03 AM
"I'm still fresh right now. I haven't pulled the plug yet," he said. "I'm still out there just basically running through things, just trying to get the feel. So once I finally get my technique down and turn things up I can really start to go out there and try to disrupt those double teams."


There was a previous thread on here with someone asking if Mario was maybe being held back. My thoughts on that were "Why not" he has no need to go all out, and what he could be doing is working on tightening things up for the regular season rather than impressing everyone in a couple preseason games that don't mean a thing.

Can't wait for the season to start and see him just blow the roof off.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-27-2006, 09:15 AM
Initially I was on the Reggie bandwagon, but now with my great 20/20 hindsight, I think I understand Kubiack's foresight. Don't draft talent for the sake of talent... draft to fill your greatest needs.

LOL!

Hey is it me or have the NO/Tack fans stoped coming over to our MB. They are starting to realize that Bush is not the Messiah -- but rather a very quick specialty TB.

WildBlackBear32
08-27-2006, 09:18 AM
I'm with ya' on that one! This will be the only live Texans game I get to see all season in Boston... except the late december deep freeze I'm trying to get tickets for up here.


What channel is it going to be on? I got the Emmys on NBC, so I'm pretty much lost.

South Texan
08-27-2006, 09:24 AM
What channel is it going to be on? I got the Emmys on NBC, so I'm pretty much lost.

NFL Network, 7PM Central Time, 6PM in your time zone I think.

If your cable provider doesn't carry the NFL network, offer to have Mario, Spencer, and Winston visit their headquarters to have a, uhem, "chat".

WildBlackBear32
08-27-2006, 09:27 AM
NFL Network, 7PM Central Time, 6PM in your time zone I think.

If your cable provider doesn't carry the NFL network, offer to have Mario, Spencer, and Winston visit their headquarters to have a, uhem, "chat".

That'd be 8PM but....Ugh, I don't have NFL Network.

Txn_in_Oki
08-27-2006, 09:31 AM
That'd be 8PM but....Ugh, I don't have NFL Network.

Same here. I'll be off on a bar hunt to find one that has the game tonight. What a pain.

Malloy
08-27-2006, 09:35 AM
Same here. I'll be off on a bar hunt to find one that has the game tonight. What a pain.

When oh when will the NFL-Network wake up and start broadcasting the games online....?

kbourda
08-27-2006, 09:35 AM
Sucks for you. *s*

kbourda
08-27-2006, 09:35 AM
That'd be 8PM but....Ugh, I don't have NFL Network.
Sucks for you. *s*

South Texan
08-27-2006, 09:40 AM
That'd be 8PM but....Ugh, I don't have NFL Network.

OK, Timing has never been my strong point <sigh>. :homer:

I feel your pain, I live 300 miles from Houston, but our local media has not yet figured out there are 2 NFL teams in Texas. (They are getting better though, we got almost 3 minutes of coverage down here on the Mario draft pick.)

Fieldpass (on nfl.com) still has the one week free trial I think, if you don't mind them cutting off about 1/4 of the play by play, and KILT 610 AM may broadcast it on radiomat.com.

Vinny
08-27-2006, 09:42 AM
I see guys on other message boards talking about watching on TVU player. Go google that and check it out.

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showpost.php?p=148459&postcount=17

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=5157&page=3

Carr Bombed
08-27-2006, 09:59 AM
That'd be 8PM but....Ugh, I don't have NFL Network. Do you have any friends that have NFL network, thats what I'm doing, going over to a friends house, having a nice sunday barbecue, and watching some football........god I love football season. :cool:

WildBlackBear32
08-27-2006, 10:02 AM
Do you have any friends that have NFL network, thats what I'm doing, going over to a friends house, having a nice sunday barbecue, and watching some football........god I love football season. :cool:

Time Warner has nearly monopolized the market in Maine. There are a handful of people with Adelphia, but trying to find someone with it is like trying to locate a pot of gold under the rainbow.

Malloy
08-27-2006, 10:16 AM
I see guys on other message boards talking about watching on TVU player. Go google that and check it out.

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showpost.php?p=148459&postcount=17

http://forums.49ers.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=5157&page=3

I've got TVU and sopcast installed, but as far as I've seen, no one is streaming the NFL-Network. I'll check out the forum though, I might get some more info, thanks V. :)

Roughnecks
08-27-2006, 10:46 AM
They just need to make sure he and the rest of the team for that matter comes out of the preseason healthy. No since in letting him go crazy now and get hurt with a leg injury or something let him go crazy about 6 or 7 plays tonight and be disruptive. He will be fine the dude is a stud and will get better as he gains more and more playing time and will be the leader of the defence for years. It's nice to know that our team will be getting better from here on out.

kingh99
08-27-2006, 10:57 AM
Thanks. I was hoping that they would go most of the game. I am so freakin' excited!!!!!!!!!

:yahoo:

I was hoping they would go less. I hate preseason. Did you see the hurt Tampa Bay wannabes were putting on the Jaguars and vice versa yesterday? It was last man standing. Tampa Bay would be the last team you want to face before a cut down day. They were nuts on defense before Gruden. Yesterday they looked like suicide machines.

You want your star put out because some no name guy who was selling stock last month is desperately trying to make the team? Preseason drives me nuts. So far so good for the Texans, knock on wood.

K.D.
08-27-2006, 12:25 PM
Yeah I agree they might be holding him back some or he just holding hisself back so he could concentrate more of where he's lined up and also on his technique in different situations. But let me tell you, when McFagg and the Sheagles come to town, believe me Richard Smith is going to let hounds out. Mario and the rest of the D IS GOING TO BE SO AGGRESSIVE, this one game is going to erase the bad taste in all of our mouths from the last 4yrs!!garunTEED!!:highfive:

eric138
08-27-2006, 12:36 PM
never thought Mario was a "plat'num grill" type of guy. he seemed more down to earth than that. oh well.

thunderkyss
08-27-2006, 12:39 PM
Preseason games 3:

Reggie Bush, 10 touches for 44 yards and 1 fumble.
Vince Young, 6/10 for 96 yards and 1 int, 2 rushes for 14 yards.

While I don't doubt either of these two will get better, my faith in Kubiack's and the Front Office's decision making process took another huge jump. Early on, it sure doesn't appear Reggie or Vince would have been the miracle to turn things around from last season. Initially I was on the Reggie bandwagon, but now with my great 20/20 hindsight, I think I understand Kubiack's foresight. Don't draft talent for the sake of talent... draft to fill your greatest needs.


That has nothing to do with nothing...... #1, this is the preseason..... all will be forgotten, except by some bitter fans, come Sept10....... by which time Vince, and Reggie will have a better understanding of what the NFL is all about, and how they have to deal with it.

Drafting to fill our greatest needs?? Reggie would have been a Texan if it weren't for his attitude regarding his families NCAA fair competition violations.
of course on this team, he would probably have two 6 carry 125 yard games. The biggest problem I am seeing unvieled, is that the Titans and Saints..... & the 49ers were actually worse teams than we were, even though we had the worst record.

We told NewOrleans they had no Offensive line..... we told them to draft D'Brick...... & they should have....

We told Tennessee they had no offensive line, no recievers, no runningback, & no deffense....... and they don't. they also needed a QB..... so go figure. Anyone thinking Lienart or Cutler would be doing better in Tennessee right now is just hating on Vince...

AustinJB
08-27-2006, 12:59 PM
The biggest problem I am seeing unvieled, is that the Titans and Saints..... & the 49ers were actually worse teams than we were, even though we had the worst record.

Good point....they had and still have the worst teams, but we just had the worst coaching staff which translated into the worst record.

Scooter
08-27-2006, 01:28 PM
Anyone thinking Lienart or Cutler would be doing better in Tennessee right now is just hating on Vince...

i'm actually suprised young is doing this well. i think he's got the most potential of the three, but i figure him to be relatively useless for atleast a season. while the other two might struggle more than they have if they were on the poor titans team, i think they'd do better right now than young has.

mario was the right pick nomatter what sight you have. reggie doesnt work in the confines of kubiak's system, he's a dancer and needs to be in space (although i think he'd enjoy all of mike sherman's screens). he's not the one-cut downhill runner that DD is, or morency's being taught to be. the weakside DE is rarely ever touched with our scheme, if reggie were a texan, his dancing would have him meeting an unobstructed dwight freeney ... and promptly carted off. besides, when the system can CREATE reggie bush out of a 6th rounder, why not grab the physical speciman that is mario who happens to be in an area of dire need. heck, it wouldnt have hurt my feelings if we went the other way and drafted d'brick first, and two DE's in the third ... but we made the right choice.

nunusguy
08-27-2006, 03:00 PM
Reggie Bush may end up being no better than the third best back taken in
this Draft.
Mario could very well be a very good pick for us over the long term, but maybe not the best decision for the team.

Doug
08-27-2006, 03:38 PM
I wanted Reggie Bush and we got Mario Williams. I was over the disappointment in a week and I have no ill feelings towards Reggie or Vince for that matter just because the Texans didn't pick them. I hope they go on to have wonderful careers but my attention will be on Mario because he plays for my team. You will never hear me say, but if we had Reggie this would happen or if we had Vince that would happen.

I think the animosity felt toward Reggie is due to everyone growing tired of ESPN making every move he makes into a highlight when it's not. The guy could get stomped in the backfield on the hand off and ESPN would tell you that it took 2 whole guys and look at how well his left foot touched the ground before getting hit. It's ESPN's way of finding everything and anything positive (even if they have to bend it a little) to make their opinions correct. Everything surrounding the 1st pick in the draft: Reggie, Vince, Mario, etc. will be in the news for a long time and they will find many things to say and discuss (positive and negative) just like TO.

I know this kinda came from left field but something sparked my opninon and I wanted to put it out there. I also wanted to mention that I find myself looking more at the highlights now to find out what Lawrence Maroney did in a game rather than Reggie.

Big J
08-27-2006, 03:50 PM
I think we all know what needs to happen...

ESPN just needs to s reggie's d already and get past it. Especially Shaun Salisbary, who claims that Reggie can do the same things in pros as he could do in college (following the Titans game...i mean cmon).

Being in Colts country there is nothing worse than my friends watching the game and saying oh crap look at that run. Next play he fumbles it. Also his only big run was against the Titans. Everyone else has not allowed a big play. I dont hate Reggie, I hate Colts fans who constantly tell me we made the wrong pick. I am probably going to the Texans game in Indy and I hope Mario sacks the crap out of Payton Manning.

Just an angry rant by a Texans fan that wants the season to start and show how legit we can be.

Ibar_Harry
08-27-2006, 04:12 PM
I was hoping they would go less. I hate preseason. Did you see the hurt Tampa Bay wannabes were putting on the Jaguars and vice versa yesterday? It was last man standing. Tampa Bay would be the last team you want to face before a cut down day. They were nuts on defense before Gruden. Yesterday they looked like suicide machines.

You want your star put out because some no name guy who was selling stock last month is desperately trying to make the team? Preseason drives me nuts. So far so good for the Texans, knock on wood.

That's why I don't like playing them anytime as well as preseason. Its our last preseason game when we play them and I don't want us to play them using anyone of value. That includes Sage and Carr. I don't want to play Mario, either. I would just as soon show up and say, you win and walk off the field. It just ain't worth it. Of course the NFL wouldn't like that, but I have never liked what Gruden thinks is clean football. I have never forgot the Sapp move against GB and I think it really was the start of the decline of GB. I always felt Sapp should have been thrown out for that move. It was just uncalled for, but that's my opinion. He basically injured someone for life....

Marcus
08-27-2006, 04:55 PM
Drafting to fill our greatest needs?? Reggie would have been a Texan if it weren't for his attitude regarding his families NCAA fair competition violations.
Wow! Talk about wild-eyed speculation. :rolleyes:

Tell me again why you get your panties in a wad whenever someone wants to talk about the DD injury situation.:listening


_____________

CloakNNNdagger
08-27-2006, 05:01 PM
I've got TVU and sopcast installed, but as far as I've seen, no one is streaming the NFL-Network. I'll check out the forum though, I might get some more info, thanks V. :)

You might consider this. NFL Mobile is $5.99 a month and is available today on phones that operate on both the Nationwide Sprint PCS Network and the Nextel National Network. It allows for full NFL Network access, including live streaming.

shinerbock_girl
08-27-2006, 05:21 PM
You might consider this. NFL Mobile is $5.99 a month and is available today on phones that operate on both the Nationwide Sprint PCS Network and the Nextel National Network. It allows for full NFL Network access, including live streaming.

I have the NFL Mobile through Sprint and the NFL network live is on there, but they don't allow live games to be broadcast on there...All games are shown as black outs...The error message i got was that it was against the nfl network rules to show live games on your phone...But the game cast on there is really kool, its the same screen as the ESPN mobile phone if you've heard of that, and gives you live games and scores, just not the televised portion of it..

thunderkyss
08-27-2006, 05:38 PM
Wow! Talk about wild-eyed speculation. :rolleyes:

Tell me again why you get your panties in a wad whenever someone wants to talk about the DD injury situation.:listening


_____________


My panties get all wadded up, because too many fans on this team are thrilled about the prospect of Drafting Reggie to replace DD(regardless how you sugar coat it, that's what you'd be doing), but are apalled at the idea of drafting a QB who is to the QB position what Reggie is supposed to be to Running Backs.

When DD has put everything out on the field, and probably left both knees out there as well...... he's produced, and given us Texans fans something to cheer about.....

stingray
08-27-2006, 05:48 PM
This is pre-season people. Nobody knows if Bush will be better than Mario or mario will better than Bush until two or three years down the road. Everybody wants to pre-judge. But nobody knows, not even the so- called experts. Time will only tell. Personally I believe the Texans made a mistake, hey but what do I know.....

tulexan
08-27-2006, 05:59 PM
My panties get all wadded up, because too many fans on this team are thrilled about the prospect of Drafting Reggie to replace DD(regardless how you sugar coat it, that's what you'd be doing), but are apalled at the idea of drafting a QB who is to the QB position what Reggie is supposed to be to Running Backs.

I don't think that is necessarily true. You can't have two QB's on the field at the same time. You can have two RB's on the field at the same time. Especially when both are versatile players.

CloakNNNdagger
08-27-2006, 06:02 PM
Oh where oh where is Reggie??

Rushing Yards - 2006 Preseason Leaders (after 2 games)
1. M. Smith BAL 116
2. C. Cobbs DEN 107
3. W. Lundy HOU 99
4. M. Turner SD 98
5. E. Graham TB 97

At the 3rd game, Reggie added 5 carries for 22 yds (longest 14yds).............stay tuned to this pm for any adds on the part of Lundy.

thunderkyss
08-27-2006, 06:08 PM
I don't think that is necessarily true. You can't have two QB's on the field at the same time. You can have two RB's on the field at the same time. Especially when both are versatile players.

Not with that kind of money involved.

Goldeagle
08-27-2006, 07:15 PM
Yeah, just saw him get easily handled by a TIGHT END!

Could of got the same quality in the third round, GREAT!

D Brick looks good though

edo783
08-27-2006, 10:46 PM
Yeah, just saw him get easily handled by a TIGHT END!

Could of got the same quality in the third round, GREAT!

D Brick looks good though

Nice to see you are doing a close inspection for pollops.

BigDTexansFan
08-27-2006, 10:49 PM
WHAT A "D", boy did they look good, without officiating blown call we hold them to 6 points on 2 short fields. That wasn't 2nd string, that was starter to starter..WOOHOOO c'mon September 10th :shoot:

I think we have a defense that despite slow pace offense improving at, we will be in every game for most of season:francis:

bigtex77
08-27-2006, 10:52 PM
WHAT A "D", boy did they look good, without officiating blown call we hold them to 6 points on 2 short fields. That wasn't 2nd string, that was starter to starter..WOOHOOO c'mon September 10th :shoot:

I think we have a defense that despite slow pace offense improving at, we will be in every game for most of season:francis:


Not with Mario Williams on it, three games without a sack? God he sucks. (Never mind the other things he does) :rolleyes:

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-27-2006, 10:57 PM
Yeah, just saw him get easily handled by a TIGHT END!

Could of got the same quality in the third round, GREAT!

D Brick looks good though


Really?

D Brick gets benched (http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/447056p-376414c.html)

Vinny
08-27-2006, 11:17 PM
Mario plays too high too often so far. You cant play with leverage if you play like herman munster

Honoring Earl 34
08-27-2006, 11:26 PM
Mario plays too high too often so far. You cant play with leverage if you play like herman munster
Mario's technique is his only obstacle left . He is strong and quick .

nunusguy
08-28-2006, 10:08 AM
I remain unconvinced about the #1 overall pick being worthy of that decision
by the Texans.
True, he's playing basically weakside when he was a strong side DE in college, but DeMeco was primarily an OLB in college (I believe ?) but is
already starring at a new position as a rookie MLB in the NFL.
Mario does get double teamed, but I believe other Texan downlinmen
are also getting double teams ? To me the most troubling indicator is that
Mario does not appear to be the edge rusher that Peek is, or even Babin.
And they continue to put him on the inside in passing situations.
I don't think for a moment that he'll be some kind of bust, but I fail to see
any evidence of a latent pro bowl type talent here, let alone another Reggie White.
The argument advanced by the Texans for the Mario pick was that a steller pass rushing DE is a very valuable player to build your defense around. What I'm seeing so far instead is a competant but not outstanding pro prospect who might be best suited as 4-3 DT, or maybe 3-4 DE.

thunderkyss
08-28-2006, 10:55 AM
I remain unconvinced about the #1 overall pick being worthy of that decision
by the Texans.
True, he's playing basically weakside when he was a strong side DE in college, but DeMeco was primarily an OLB in college (I believe ?) but is
already starring at a new position as a rookie MLB in the NFL.
Mario does get double teamed, but I believe other Texan downlinmen
are also getting double teams ? To me the most troubling indicator is that
Mario does not appear to be the edge rusher that Peek is, or even Babin.
And they continue to put him on the inside in passing situations.
I don't think for a moment that he'll be some kind of bust, but I fail to see
any evidence of a latent pro bowl type talent here, let alone another Reggie White.
The argument advanced by the Texans for the Mario pick was that a steller pass rushing DE is a very valuable player to build your defense around. What I'm seeing so far instead is a competant but not outstanding pro prospect who might be best suited as 4-3 DT, or maybe 3-4 DE.


While I do agree he is a better tackle than most of our DTs, it's because of what he is doing on 1st & 2nd down that gives us the opportunity to put him inside on the 3rd downs, and add two more excellent pass rushers to the ends.

I also beieve you are right, he makes a perfect 3-4 defensive end. But he's also going to be a great 4-3 defensive end.

aside from that, this preseason...... the only none of the top 10 draft picks have shown they were worth the pick. Maybe Lienart..... maybe.

powerfuldragon
08-28-2006, 11:03 AM
top ten rushing leaders as of today:


1 Cedric Cobbs DEN 161 28 5.8 1 26
2 Ray Perkins SD 151 40 3.8 1 16
3 Michael Turner SD 151 23 6.6 3 45
4 Jerious Norwood ATL 145 24 6.0 1 62
5 Patrick Cobbs NE 143 26 5.5 2 36
6 Wali Lundy HOU 143 26 5.5 1 25
7 Frank Gore SF 140 26 5.4 1 18
8 Tyson Thompson DAL 139 30 4.6 0 25
9 Vernand Morency HOU 131 24 5.5 2 43
10 Earnest Graham TB 124 27 4.6 0 18
...

...

29 Reggie Bush NO 88 15 5.9 0 44

real
08-28-2006, 11:03 AM
Oh where oh where is Reggie??

Rushing Yards - 2006 Preseason Leaders (after 2 games)
1. M. Smith BAL 116
2. C. Cobbs DEN 107
3. W. Lundy HOU 99
4. M. Turner SD 98
5. E. Graham TB 97

At the 3rd game, Reggie added 5 carries for 22 yds (longest 14yds).............stay tuned to this pm for any adds on the part of Lundy.

What is your purpose for posting these stats...Are you trying to say that Lundy or any of these other backs are better than reggie? 1) In all except the 1st game the Saints have played Reggie has split time with duece going with the first team...Reggie doesn't go against second teamers...2) Reggie has looked much better than any of our running backs from a pure talent standpoint...

Im not sure why people are trying to prove that reggie sucks...He has made his fair share of rookie mistakes, but I just think that we have passed ridiculous and are dead set for insane when we try to make it appear that any running back we have on our team brings more to the table than Bush...

Honoring Earl 34
08-28-2006, 11:07 AM
While I do agree he is a better tackle than most of our DTs, it's because of what he is doing on 1st & 2nd down that gives us the opportunity to put him inside on the 3rd downs, and add two more excellent pass rushers to the ends.

I also beieve you are right, he makes a perfect 3-4 defensive end. But he's also going to be a great 4-3 defensive end.

aside from that, this preseason...... the only none of the top 10 draft picks have shown they were worth the pick. Maybe Lienart..... maybe.
I enjoy watching Mario survive on his physical ability ( driving two OL to the QB , ask Carr about no pocket to step up in to ) . I can't wait until he learns how to play the pro game .

Ryans plays well but theres a reason the Denver RBs are funneled back to the middle .

real
08-28-2006, 11:08 AM
While I do agree he is a better tackle than most of our DTs, it's because of what he is doing on 1st & 2nd down that gives us the opportunity to put him inside on the 3rd downs, and add two more excellent pass rushers to the ends.

I also beieve you are right, he makes a perfect 3-4 defensive end. But he's also going to be a great 4-3 defensive end.

aside from that, this preseason...... the only none of the top 10 draft picks have shown they were worth the pick. Maybe Lienart..... maybe.

I agree with you on Leinart....He looks really good, and if Kurt goes down don't look for leinart to relinquish the starting spot any time soon...and If Kurt does magically make it through the season, Lienart will definitely be the starter opening day 2007...

thunderkyss
08-28-2006, 11:14 AM
top ten rushing leaders as of today:
1 Cedric Cobbs DEN 161 28 5.8 1 26
2 Ray Perkins SD 151 40 3.8 1 16
3 Michael Turner SD 151 23 6.6 3 45
4 Jerious Norwood ATL 145 24 6.0 1 62
5 Patrick Cobbs NE 143 26 5.5 2 36
6 Wali Lundy HOU 143 26 5.5 1 25
7 Frank Gore SF 140 26 5.4 1 18
8 Tyson Thompson DAL 139 30 4.6 0 25
9 Vernand Morency HOU 131 24 5.5 2 43
10 Earnest Graham TB 124 27 4.6 0 18
...

...

29 Reggie Bush NO 88 15 5.9 0 44

Imagine that.... Houston on the list twice.

beerlover
08-28-2006, 11:33 AM
Ryans plays well but theres a reason the Denver RBs are funneled back to the middle .


maybe the Texans need to take advantage of that tendancy :fireball: & laydown in the middle and just wait for the play to develop and come to them :bowser:

real
08-28-2006, 11:38 AM
top ten rushing leaders as of today:

Reggie Bush averages 5 carries a game...Lundy averages over 8...When the season starts and reggie plays more than a quater and a half at best, lets see if Lundy or any of those other backs can keep up with Reggie in the all purpose category...His ypc is better than Lundy's BTW...

Divebomb
08-28-2006, 11:54 AM
Reggie Bush averages 5 carries a game...Lundy averages over 8...When the season starts and reggie plays more than a quater and a half at best, lets see if Lundy or any of those other backs can keep up with Reggie in the all purpose category...His ypc is better than Lundy's BTW...


LAMO, look at the game, Bush played throught the 3rd. sorry dude Buah is all hype. Ran great against the Titans but then again everyone is breaking off big plays against the titans. Dallas shut him down inside and out, and Indy made him look like a joke. The guy is way overrated. If NO was smart they would move him to WR PR/KR and leave him because as a RB the guy sucks.

real
08-28-2006, 11:59 AM
LAMO, look at the game, Bush played throught the 3rd. sorry dude Buah is all hype. Ran great against the Titans but then again everyone is breaking off big plays against the titans. Dallas shut him down inside and out, and Indy made him look like a joke. The guy is way overrated. If NO was smart they would move him to WR PR/KR and leave him because as a RB the guy sucks.

No he didn't...in fact he was taken out of the game before Duece was....And if you call running up the middle and breaking away from two tacklers and then taking it to a db making him look like a joke you must have laughed all day...like I said bush averages more ypc than any back on our team and only averages 5 rushes per game because he and duece both split time with the first team...

real
08-28-2006, 12:05 PM
His last play was with 9:21 left in the third...hardly throughout, but that is besides my point...he could play all game long for all I care...he only averages 5 touches a game...the end...

thunderkyss
08-28-2006, 12:12 PM
LAMO, look at the game, Bush played throught the 3rd. sorry dude Buah is all hype. Ran great against the Titans but then again everyone is breaking off big plays against the titans. Dallas shut him down inside and out, and Indy made him look like a joke. The guy is way overrated. If NO was smart they would move him to WR PR/KR and leave him because as a RB the guy sucks.

Man I think overall, you are going to come out on the wrong end of this argument. The Titans weren't the worse team they'll see. & I don't know if the Cowboys could've contained him much longer......

Sean Payton is a crafty lil 'cuss......... and he'll get Reggie behind the defense.. you can bank on it.

real
08-28-2006, 12:16 PM
Man I think overall, you are going to come out on the wrong end of this argument. The Titans weren't the worse team they'll see. & I don't know if the Cowboys could've contained him much longer......

Sean Payton is a crafty lil 'cuss......... and he'll get Reggie behind the defense.. you can bank on it.

exaclty...I don't know how anyone could have watched Reggie play and still call him a "joke"...

Divebomb
08-28-2006, 12:16 PM
Lets see bush had 5 carries for 22 yards with a long of 14 and a fumble. so one carry for 14 that means the other four carries average out to 2 ypc! Oh and I guess that fumble he had, LOL, was a fluke! He was barely even touched and he fumbled. Against Dallas he had 4 carries for 7 yards LOL. Titans are probably the worse team in the NFl, so I don't even count that game. Everyone who plays those guys has a 40+ break away run. So against real teams, Dal/Indy he has 9 carries for 29 yards. thats what 3.02 ypc. The guy is a hoss, ROY shoe in! LOL. What a joke, and you said he has only played a quarter and a half. Buddy Bush has played over 6 quarters of football so far and has yet to score a TD. The guy does not even contribute, he fumbles the ball away.

PhillyFan
08-28-2006, 12:18 PM
I think you kind of have to cut Bush some slack.

As I have mentioned here before, he is running behind one of the worst offensive lines in football.

I cant believe they let Bentley go...he instantly doubles the talent there.

Give Bush 3 or 4 years. He will be an excellent player...he just needs some help up front. Kind of like Emmitt Smith. He wouldnt have been half the player he was without that monster line in front of him.

I never thought he was a particularly great player myself...more of a product of a good team.

Look at his numbers compared to Sanders. Look at the number of carries, the yards per carry, and the years that it took him to break the record.

Sanders was a far greater back, and ran behind a far worse line.

real
08-28-2006, 12:21 PM
Lets see bush had 5 carries for 22 yards with a long of 14 and a fumble. so one carry for 14 that means the other four carries average out to 2 ypc! Oh and I guess that fumble he had, LOL, was a fluke! He was barely even touched and he fumbled. Against Dallas he had 4 carries for 7 yards LOL. Titans are probably the worse team in the NFl, so I don't even count that game. Everyone who plays those guys has a 40+ break away run. So against real teams, Dal/Indy he has 9 carries for 29 yards. thats what 3.02 ypc. The guy is a hoss, ROY shoe in! LOL. What a joke, and you said he has only played a quarter and a half. Buddy Bush has played over 6 quarters of football so far and has yet to score a TD. The guy does not even contribute, he fumbles the ball away.

Like I said...he made some rookie mistakes...Why are you expecting him to come out and play like a Vet ? ESPN hype get into your psyche ? Despite what you are saying he still averages more ypc than any back on our team...and like I said he splits time with duece going with the first team...and IMO, he has shown some pretty impressive flashes...you can keep ranting, your bush sucks chants if you want...thats your choice....but overall Bush has looked more impressive than any running back on our squad...take it FWIW....

real
08-28-2006, 12:25 PM
I think you kind of have to cut Bush some slack.

As I have mentioned here before, he is running behind one of the worst offensive lines in football.

I cant believe they let Bentley go...he instantly doubles the talent there.

Give Bush 3 or 4 years. He will be an excellent player...he just needs some help up front. Kind of like Emmitt Smith. He wouldnt have been half the player he was without that monster line in front of him.

I never thought he was a particularly great player myself...more of a product of a good team.

Look at his numbers compared to Sanders. Look at the number of carries, the yards per carry, and the years that it took him to break the record.

Sanders was a far greater back, and ran behind a far worse line.

Thats fair...and Honestly Reggie isn't an all world running back...but as an offensive weapon...IMO, in two years he will be the best in the leauge....

PhillyFan
08-28-2006, 12:26 PM
I think you kind of have to cut Bush some slack.

As I have mentioned here before, he is running behind one of the worst offensive lines in football.

I cant believe they let Bentley go...he instantly doubles the talent there.

Give Bush 3 or 4 years. He will be an excellent player...he just needs some help up front. Kind of like Emmitt Smith. He wouldnt have been half the player he was without that monster line in front of him.

I never thought he was a particularly great player myself...more of a product of a good team.

Look at his numbers compared to Sanders. Look at the number of carries, the yards per carry, and the years that it took him to break the record.

Sanders was a far greater back, and ran behind a far worse line.

In follow up, here are some basic stats on the 2

Emmitt Smith had 15 years in the NFL. He played 226 games, had 4409 carries and 18,355 yards, for an average of 4.2 yards per carry over his career.

Barry Sanders played 10 seasons, with 153 games. He had 3062 carries for 15,269 yards, with a lifetime average of 5.0 yards per carry.

Only once in his career did Emmitt sniff 5 yards per carry, and that was in 1993, behind arguably one of the best offensive lines in the history of the game. Barry did it over the length of his entire career.

With Kubiaks system, Reggie really could have flourished in Texas, Im sure of it. Instead, he will rot for 3 or 4 year with the Saints, who will continue to be a slightly less than average team.

The Texans on the other hand, are definitely on an upward swing.

Roughnecks
08-28-2006, 12:31 PM
As I have mentioned here before, he is running behind one of the worst offensive lines in football.

Thats funny from what I have heard from Eagles fans on this MB we had the worst offensive line. As far as Bush goes I don't think they are using him the way he can show his talent at least not intill the reagular season and then we can see what he brings. When it comes to Super Mario I like what I have seen so far and the upside for him is endless. We made the right choice for our football team with Mario and Ryans running our D for years we are headed in the right direction.

bayshorebevo
08-28-2006, 12:32 PM
If we had known DD's injury status, we might have picked Bush.

Divebomb
08-28-2006, 12:43 PM
Like I said...he made some rookie mistakes...Why are you expecting him to come out and play like a Vet ? ESPN hype get into your psyche ? Despite what you are saying he still averages more ypc than any back on our team...and like I said he splits time with duece going with the first team...and IMO, he has shown some pretty impressive flashes...you can keep ranting, your bush sucks chants if you want...thats your choice....but overall Bush has looked more impressive than any running back on our squad...take it FWIW....

He should be playing like a Vet, he should average 6 yards per carry and have 5 touchdowns by now. ESPN said he could step in to any team and make an imediate impact! He has been touted has the greatest thing since sliced bread. So far our backs, Lundy and Morency have both scored TD's where is Reggie. How has he out performed our guys. Lets look at big play numbers. Morency game one did not play, game 2 43 yard TD run, game 3 long of 5 playing behind our second team OL that is reeally bad. Lundy has long runs of 25 game 1, 21 game 2, 10 game 3. Bush long of 44 game 1, long of 9 game 2, long of 14 game 3. Yea Bush stands leaps and bounds above our guys. Dude In Reggies best game against the Titans Bush had 6 carries for 59 yards with a long of 44. Take the 44 away hand he averaged 3 ypc. people focused on cutting off the edge and sure enough it is just like everyone expected, he cant play inside the middle. He is a reciever, he will never cut it at RB.

real
08-28-2006, 12:48 PM
He should be playing like a Vet, he should average 6 yards per carry and have 5 touchdowns by now. ESPN said he could step in to any team and make an imediate impact! He has been touted has the greatest thing since sliced bread. So far our backs, Lundy and Morency have both scored TD's where is Reggie. How has he out performed our guys. Lets look at big play numbers. Morency game one did not play, game 2 43 yard TD run, game 3 long of 5 playing behind our second team OL that is reeally bad. Lundy has long runs of 25 game 1, 21 game 2, 10 game 3. Bush long of 44 game 1, long of 9 game 2, long of 14 game 3. Yea Bush stands leaps and bounds above our guys. Dude In Reggies best game against the Titans Bush had 6 carries for 59 yards with a long of 44. Take the 44 away hand he averaged 3 ypc. people focused on cutting off the edge and sure enough it is just like everyone expected, he cant play inside the middle. He is a reciever, he will never cut it at RB.
:ok:

Texans>Colts
08-28-2006, 12:53 PM
I've been saying this for a while

michaelm
08-28-2006, 01:21 PM
What is your purpose for posting these stats...Are you trying to say that Lundy or any of these other backs are better than reggie? 1) In all except the 1st game the Saints have played Reggie has split time with duece going with the first team...Reggie doesn't go against second teamers...2) Reggie has looked much better than any of our running backs from a pure talent standpoint...

I'm not sure why people are trying to prove that Reggie sucks...He has made his fair share of rookie mistakes, but I just think that we have passed ridiculous and are dead set for insane when we try to make it appear that any running back we have on our team brings more to the table than Bush...


Maybe the point is that we can be successful with the backs we have... and our backs have split time just a much as Reggie and Duece.
I agree that Reggie looked better than our backs from a pure talent standpoint... he sure looked pretty dancing around for those meager yards... who cares if he looked better from a talent standpoint? Who moves the chains? that's what i care about.

BTW, the Titans are all second teamers... lol

PhillyFan
08-28-2006, 01:23 PM
Thats funny from what I have heard from Eagles fans on this MB we had the worst offensive line. As far as Bush goes I don't think they are using him the way he can show his talent at least not intill the reagular season and then we can see what he brings. When it comes to Super Mario I like what I have seen so far and the upside for him is endless. We made the right choice for our football team with Mario and Ryans running our D for years we are headed in the right direction.


Just by hiring Kubiak your o-line has increased by leaps and bounds :p

Capers was really not a coach to brag about at all.

I think the only thing he was very very good at, was getting high first round draft picks :redtowel:

thunderkyss
08-28-2006, 01:23 PM
I think you kind of have to cut Bush some slack.

As I have mentioned here before, he is running behind one of the worst offensive lines in football.

I cant believe they let Bentley go...he instantly doubles the talent there.

Give Bush 3 or 4 years. He will be an excellent player...he just needs some help up front. Kind of like Emmitt Smith. He wouldnt have been half the player he was without that monster line in front of him.

I never thought he was a particularly great player myself...more of a product of a good team.

Look at his numbers compared to Sanders. Look at the number of carries, the yards per carry, and the years that it took him to break the record.

Sanders was a far greater back, and ran behind a far worse line.

Not only that, but this is preseason..... you've got workout warriors busting their butts to make the team..... once the season starts, they all but disappear.....

then you have starters wondering why they are even on the field. Come regular season, they light it up...... again and again, and again......... then you wonder......."what were they even doing on the field in the preseason..... dudes a baller."

PhillyFan
08-28-2006, 01:28 PM
Not only that, but this is preseason..... you've got workout warriors busting their butts to make the team..... once the season starts, they all but disappear.....

then you have starters wondering why they are even on the field. Come regular season, they light it up...... again and again, and again......... then you wonder......."what were they even doing on the field in the preseason..... dudes a baller."


Yep...preseason really is garbage. I think most teams know who at least 90% of their starters are going into the season. Which to me, is reason enough to cut it down to 2 preseason games, as opposed to 4...or in the Eagles case this year, 5.

I cant wait for week 1 to get here already.

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 01:32 PM
Yep...preseason really is garbage. I think most teams know who at least 90% of their starters are going into the season. Which to me, is reason enough to cut it down to 2 preseason games, as opposed to 4...or in the Eagles case this year, 5.

I cant wait for week 1 to get here already.

I have not heard the players complain to much this year. I am sure that this last round of the CBA, the owners or the NFLPA actually educated the players on the need for four games and the loss of revenue that would incur at the expense of all parties if they cut back.

real
08-28-2006, 01:57 PM
Maybe the point is that we can be successful with the backs we have... and our backs have split time just a much as Reggie and Duece.
I agree that Reggie looked better than our backs from a pure talent standpoint... he sure looked pretty dancing around for those meager yards... who cares if he looked better from a talent standpoint? Who moves the chains? that's what i care about.

BTW, the Titans are all second teamers... lol

I've never once argued that point, and Im happy about getting Mario...That was the right choice for us...But to try and make people think that Our running backs are somehow better than him is borderline lunacy...And I'm not going to argue with any reggie bashers anymore because if you think lundy or Mornecy are better backs obviously you just don't like Bush...

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-28-2006, 02:43 PM
I think you kind of have to cut Bush some slack.

As I have mentioned here before, he is running behind one of the worst offensive lines in football.

I cant believe they let Bentley go...he instantly doubles the talent there.

Give Bush 3 or 4 years. He will be an excellent player...he just needs some help up front. Kind of like Emmitt Smith. He wouldnt have been half the player he was without that monster line in front of him.

I never thought he was a particularly great player myself...more of a product of a good team.

Look at his numbers compared to Sanders. Look at the number of carries, the yards per carry, and the years that it took him to break the record.

Sanders was a far greater back, and ran behind a far worse line.

I can't stand this argument. Why can't people understand that the nature of particular running back is what they know how to do based on their natural ability. It's very hard for a back to change their style later on. The greater the particular skill, whether power or speed, actually lessens the chance that they will be able to change later on. And this affects the ability of that back to adapt to the people around them. The reason that backs don't change their style is because they have learned to use the gifts that they were born with but ended up depending (too much) on them at the expense of other factors of the game; things like patients, reading defenses, know how to use your linemen, hitting the gap instead of the juking, making a simple short run instead of going for the "home run," etc...

IMO, Sanders was NOT the greater back because of this facts. While it's true he had a set of skills that Emmitt did not have. But he also lacked other skills that Emmitt DID have; vision and patients to hit the gap for extra yards and stronger in that he could carry defenders or breakaway from them outright. Sanders was a great a great back too, but treated the scrimmage line differently than Emmitt. If he was lucky, he could shoot out for a TD run. But if he ever got any type of traffic, he prefer to juke his way out of it. If two guys wrapped him up he pretty much would go down. Emmitt on the other hand would hit the gap, but rather than juke, would hammer the defenders and go an extra 4-5 yards and sometimes breakout of that and go for the TD. Barry, while he had strong/quick legs did not have the the same type of grind it out power nor the upper body strength that Emmitt had. Just take a look at Barry...he was all legs (looked like a baby kangaroo). But lacked in the upper body mass. Then, look at Emmitt. He was balanced, thus more versatile, IMO.

Reggie Bush has similar juke skill to Barry. But doesn't have the low center of gravity that Sanders had (6ft 200 vs 5'8" 203) and to some extent the leg power. So, he can only share some characteristics from Sanders. Marcus Allen is another RB that I compare Reggie to. But that's only regarding his open field speed and receiving ability. Although, I'm not sure that Reggie has the power for 1st and goal TD runs; at least not like Allen.

Reggie does not "suck." He going to be a very versatile back. And they will give the ball to him more as the season goes on (12-14 times) as well as using him for returns. But this doesn't make him the end-all-be-all of running back. He is still limited into what he's good at (speed and evasion) and what he's not good at (power back, up the middle, grinder). And because of this he will NOT get the ball as much as you think. And it would be a bad idea if you did give him the ball just to inflate his stats. He'll either get hurt or cause the team to loose yardage.

O-line is not just the only factor. Another is the speed and power of the OTHER TEAM. Reggie has stated himself on the NFL Network that the the thing that differentiates the NFL from the NCAA is the speed of the opposing defensive linemen. Well, I'll add the speed of the MLB, safeties and CBs too.

Before the draft, I read lots of article and watch as much film as I could on Reggie as I could. And while looking at the good things he could bring to our team, I also wanted to look at the limitations we would experience. And the thing that I found out about Reggie are things that N.O. will find out later in the season.

Giving the the ball to Reggie too much will do as much bad as it does good. Don't belive me? Ok, fine. Give him the ball 20-25 times and see what happens.


Note: A good stat to keep an eye on his Reggie's receiving yards.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-28-2006, 02:44 PM
never thought Mario was a "platinum grill" type of guy. he seemed more down to earth than that. oh well.


I think it's just him having a little fun. He still has the great work ethic and character.

real
08-28-2006, 03:01 PM
I can't stand this argument. Why can't people understand that the nature of particular running back is what they know how to do based on their natural ability. It's very hard for a back to change their style later on. The greater the particular skill, whether power or speed, actually lessens the chance that they will be able to change later on. And this affects the ability of that back to adapt to the people around them. The reason that backs don't change their style is because they have learned to use the gifts that they were born with but ended up depending (too much) on them at the expense of other factors of the game; things like patients, reading defenses, know how to use your linemen, hitting the gap instead of the juking, making a simple short run instead of going for the "home run," etc...

IMO, Sanders was NOT the greater back because of this facts. While it's true he had a set of skills that Emmitt did not have. But he also lacked other skills that Emmitt DID have; vision and patients to hit the gap for extra yards and stronger in that he could carry defenders or breakaway from them outright. Sanders was a great at hitting the gap, and if he was lucky, he could shoot out for a TD run. But if he ever got any type of traffic, he prefer to juke his way out of it. If two guys wrapped him up. He pretty much would go down. Emmitt on the other hand would hit the gap, but rather than juke, would hammer the defenders and go an extra 4-5 yards and sometimes breakout of that and go for the TD. Barry, while he had strong/quick legs. He did not have the power that Emmitt had nor the upper body strength that Emmitt had. Just take a look at Barry. He was all legs. But lacked in the upper body. Then, look at Emmitt. He was balanced. He was more versatile IMO.

Reggie Bush has similar juke skill to Barry. But doesn't have the low center of gravity that Sanders had (6ft 200 vs 5'8" 203) and to some extent the leg power. So, he can only share some characteristics from Sanders. Marcus Allen is another RB that I compare Reggie to. But that's only regarding his open field speed and receiving ability. Although, I'm not sure that Reggie has the power for 1st and goal TD runs; at least not like Allen.

Reggie does not "suck." He going to be a very versatile back. And they will give the ball to him more as the season goes on (12-14 times) as well as using him for returns. But this doesn't make him the end-all-be-all of running back. He is still limited into what he's good at (speed and evasion) and what he's not good at (power back, up the middle, grinder). And because of this he will NOT get the ball as much as you think. And it would be a bad idea if you did give him the ball just to inflate his stats. He'll either get hurt or cause the team to loose yardage.

O-line is not just the only factor. Another is the speed and power of the OTHER TEAM. Reggie has stated himself on the NFL Network that the the thing that differentiates the NFL from the NCAA is the speed of the opposing defensive linemen. Well, I'll add the speed of the MLB, safeties and CBs too.

Before the draft, I read lots of article and watch as much film as I could on Reggie as I could. And while looking at the good things he could bring to our team, I also wanted to look at the limitations we would experience. And the thing that I found out about Reggie are things that N.O. will find out later in the season.

Giving the the ball to Reggie too much will do as much bad as it does good. Don't belive me? Ok, fine. Give him the ball 20-25 times and see what happens.

I'm not understanding your point...I think everyone knows that there is no such thing as a perfect back or perfect anything for that matter...Reggie has limitations just like every other RB's...But as far as what he brings to the table...It's double that of your run-of-the mill back...And Barry was the more talented back of him and Emmit...Emmit had the better career IMO, strictly due to the situation he was put in and Barry's early retirement...But as far as man vs. man..Barry was better hands down....and are you saying that RB's can't learn and get better ? Im not following you there...because it sounded like you were saying that RB's can't change their style to fit a system...and that IMO, is lunacy...

PhillyFan
08-28-2006, 03:10 PM
I can't stand this argument. Why can't people understand that the nature of particular running back is what they know how to do based on their natural ability. It's very hard for a back to change their style later on. The greater the particular skill, whether power or speed, actually lessens the chance that they will be able to change later on. And this affects the ability of that back to adapt to the people around them. The reason that backs don't change their style is because they have learned to use the gifts that they were born with but ended up depending (too much) on them at the expense of other factors of the game; things like patients, reading defenses, know how to use your linemen, hitting the gap instead of the juking, making a simple short run instead of going for the "home run," etc...

IMO, Sanders was NOT the greater back because of this facts. While it's true he had a set of skills that Emmitt did not have. But he also lacked other skills that Emmitt DID have; vision and patients to hit the gap for extra yards and stronger in that he could carry defenders or breakaway from them outright. Sanders was a great a great back too, but treated the scrimmage line differently than Emmitt. If he was lucky, he could shoot out for a TD run. But if he ever got any type of traffic, he prefer to juke his way out of it. If two guys wrapped him up he pretty much would go down. Emmitt on the other hand would hit the gap, but rather than juke, would hammer the defenders and go an extra 4-5 yards and sometimes breakout of that and go for the TD. Barry, while he had strong/quick legs did not have the the same type of grind it out power nor the upper body strength that Emmitt had. Just take a look at Barry...he was all legs (looked like a baby kangaroo). But lacked in the upper body mass. Then, look at Emmitt. He was balanced, thus more versatile, IMO.

Reggie Bush has similar juke skill to Barry. But doesn't have the low center of gravity that Sanders had (6ft 200 vs 5'8" 203) and to some extent the leg power. So, he can only share some characteristics from Sanders. Marcus Allen is another RB that I compare Reggie to. But that's only regarding his open field speed and receiving ability. Although, I'm not sure that Reggie has the power for 1st and goal TD runs; at least not like Allen.

Reggie does not "suck." He going to be a very versatile back. And they will give the ball to him more as the season goes on (12-14 times) as well as using him for returns. But this doesn't make him the end-all-be-all of running back. He is still limited into what he's good at (speed and evasion) and what he's not good at (power back, up the middle, grinder). And because of this he will NOT get the ball as much as you think. And it would be a bad idea if you did give him the ball just to inflate his stats. He'll either get hurt or cause the team to loose yardage.

O-line is not just the only factor. Another is the speed and power of the OTHER TEAM. Reggie has stated himself on the NFL Network that the the thing that differentiates the NFL from the NCAA is the speed of the opposing defensive linemen. Well, I'll add the speed of the MLB, safeties and CBs too.

Before the draft, I read lots of article and watch as much film as I could on Reggie as I could. And while looking at the good things he could bring to our team, I also wanted to look at the limitations we would experience. And the thing that I found out about Reggie are things that N.O. will find out later in the season.

Giving the the ball to Reggie too much will do as much bad as it does good. Don't belive me? Ok, fine. Give him the ball 20-25 times and see what happens.


Note: A good stat to keep an eye on his Reggie's receiving yards.


You can come up with as many arguments as you like. The numbers dont lie.

Emmitt had a superior offensive line. And for all of his ability to "hammer the defenders and go an extra 4-5 yards and sometimes breakout of that and go for the TD" he averaged 5 yards per carry one season in his entire career.

Barry had a 5.0 ypc average over the entire length of his career. Those averages dont lie.

And how you can argue that Barry was not the greater back, when he was running behind a second tier line, yet performed much more spectacularly, is beyond me.

Barry did much more with much less. If you cant give him his props for that, thats too bad. He definitely deserved it. And I am not a Detroit fan by any stretch of the imagination...

real
08-28-2006, 03:11 PM
You can come up with as many arguments as you like. The numbers dont lie.

Emmitt had a superior offensive line. And for all of his ability to "hammer the defenders and go an extra 4-5 yards and sometimes breakout of that and go for the TD" he averaged 5 yards per carry one season in his entire career.

Barry had a 5.0 ypc average over the entire length of his career. Those averages dont lie.

And how you can argue that Barry was not the greater back, when he was running behind a second tier line, yet performed much more spectacularly, is beyond me.

Barry did much more with much less. If you cant give him his props for that, thats too bad. He definitely deserved it. And I am not a Detroit fan by any stretch of the imagination...

Dito.:fireball:

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-28-2006, 03:22 PM
I'm not understanding your point...I think everyone knows that there is no such thing as a perfect back or perfect anything for that matter...Reggie has limitations just like every other RB's...But as far as what he brings to the table...It's double that of your run-of-the mill back...And Barry was the more talented back of him and Emmit...Emmit had the better career IMO, strictly due to the situation he was put in and Barry's early retirement...But as far as man vs. man..Barry was better hands down....and are you saying that RB's can't learn and get better ? Im not following you there...because it sounded like you were saying that RB's can't change their style to fit a system...and that IMO, is lunacy...

Yeah, one of the great predictions is that Reggie will be better than Barry. Well, the more I watch of Reggie the the less I believe that will happen. And it has to do with Reggie's height; he doesn't have the same low center of gravity. So, he's not going to do the same things that Barry did down the middle.

Either Reggie has to get shorter. Or, he'll have to grow legs with the power of Bo Jackson. It's not going to happen.

I never said that all RB's can't learn and get better. Some aspects can be learned, no doubt. But whether an RB (or any player) can restrain his temptation to use his natural gifts is the question. For example, Mario is powerful and quick DE. At this point he knows that he can overpower some of the OL. Or, he can out quick them. This is a pure reaction to his physical skill.

Now, we know that Mario is working on his technique. Why? Because slower OL don't have to exert a lot of movement to stop Mario. They use leverage and technique to efficiently stop Mario who IS quicker and stronger. If Mario did not learn HOW to counter these techniques then he'd be limiting his growth as balanced and versatile DE. It's up the person on whether they can or are willing to learn. Not everyone can.

Now on the physical balance. The good news is that Mario has the tools for power, speed and quickness. Reggie has the speed and quickness. But not the power or low center of gravity necessary for power RB. So, he'll be battling not only his own tendency to juke (when he shouldn't) he'll be limited to his body type. This was one of the criticism I had with Eddie George. Although, very strong (at 6'3" 235), he had a up-right running style. So, any benefit that his power gave him was lessened by his high-center of gravity running style. He couldn't help it. That's just the way he was. This is why he was never a efficient RB and/or got the ball stripped. IMO, watching him run w/the ball was like watching a train wreck about to happen.

Smash_Mouth_Mario
08-28-2006, 03:28 PM
You can come up with as many arguments as you like. The numbers dont lie.

Emmitt had a superior offensive line. And for all of his ability to "hammer the defenders and go an extra 4-5 yards and sometimes breakout of that and go for the TD" he averaged 5 yards per carry one season in his entire career.

Barry had a 5.0 ypc average over the entire length of his career. Those averages dont lie.

And how you can argue that Barry was not the greater back, when he was running behind a second tier line, yet performed much more spectacularly, is beyond me.

Barry did much more with much less. If you cant give him his props for that, thats too bad. He definitely deserved it. And I am not a Detroit fan by any stretch of the imagination...

And the stats don't tell the whole truth. That's all you are doing. You just take the average and say, "See!"

That's just as bad as the Cowboy fan saying, "See, 18,000 yards for Emmitt." You are doing the same thing. What you should do is look at what limitations a RB is used within the team concept to achieve the ultimate goal. And that's a title. You are just looking at stats and then claiming the average is the ultimate number. To make it worse you say, "He did it more spectacularly." Well, then we know where you eyes are. Just the stat and the spectacular play. Not the more efficient player within the team. By the way, Emmitt has his share of "spectacluar plays." So, it's not like he's completely void of that.

eric138
08-28-2006, 03:39 PM
yeah he seems that way but all that gangsta grill stuff seems like trtouble to me. Then again I haven't been to a club since the pre-grill stuff so it could be that I just always see the trouble makers wearing them.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2006/01/16/PH2006011601438.jpg

Divebomb
08-28-2006, 03:42 PM
Here is a twist for you. You say Barry Sanders is a better running back then Emmit Smith. Lets put this into perspective, Jerry Rice, hands down the best reciever of all time. Chris Carter, Tim Brown, both much faster than Jerry Rice and over all talently speaking they were more gifted. No one says that they were better than Rice, people don't cry that Rice had better QB's throwing him the ball. He had Joe Montana and Steve Young throwing him the ball. The 49'rs oline was one of the best in the league for years, plus he had so much talent around him it was not even funny. Does that make him any less of a reciever. Can you argue that Carter or Brown are better recievers????? E. Smith is hands down the best running back to ever play the game. Stats say he is the best ever.

HOU-TEX
08-28-2006, 03:45 PM
Ya'll are way :offtopic

Ya'll are discussing things relative to the NFL, not the Texans.

Divebomb
08-28-2006, 03:50 PM
Ya'll are way :offtopic

Ya'll are discussing things relative to the NFL, not the Texans.

Yea its CRAZY! Bush homers couldn't handle a pro-mario thread.

goodnews boy
08-28-2006, 03:54 PM
[QUOTE reggie doesnt work in the confines of kubiak's system, he's a dancer and needs to be in space (although i think he'd enjoy all of mike sherman's screens). he's not the one-cut downhill runner that DD is, or morency's being taught to be. besides, when the system can CREATE reggie bush out of a 6th rounder, QUOTE]
I disagree. Reggie is a one cut back. That is why he is so effective. He has that bust to separate from the defender. IMO he is like a pound cake with glaze on top. The cake is good but the topping makes it that much better. He seams to be teachable. He could have work in the system but we needed the stop teams more then score more points. I agree with having Super Mario :mario: but to say Reggie would work is crazy

Kaiser Toro
08-28-2006, 04:05 PM
We have a football forum to speak about Reggie Bush and if that is not enough just go to all things ESPN and you should get your fill over there.

This forum is for all things Texans.

run-david-run
08-28-2006, 05:04 PM
Like I said...he made some rookie mistakes...Why are you expecting him to come out and play like a Vet ? ESPN hype get into your psyche ? Despite what you are saying he still averages more ypc than any back on our team...and like I said he splits time with duece going with the first team...and IMO, he has shown some pretty impressive flashes...you can keep ranting, your bush sucks chants if you want...thats your choice....but overall Bush has looked more impressive than any running back on our squad...take it FWIW....
Im not saying that Bush is gonna be a bust or anything, although I do think he isnt worth $60M, but there is no way he has looked better then Morency. Watch that Rams game and just try to imagine Bush scoring that first TD...no way. 90 something yards on 11 carries and 2 TD's, one big 30+ yard run and one where he plowed over a Linebacker...

Also, Bush almost defies the point of a running game. If your RB gets 100 yards on 20 carries with a long of say 20, that helps your team throughtout the game a lot more then 100 yards on 20 caries with a long of 50. On a running team (which is what we are) you need first downs first, then big plays. If you can consistantly get 4 yards on a runnning play you are far more likley to win then averaging 2 yards a play with a big one thrown in once.

run-david-run
08-28-2006, 05:14 PM
I'm not understanding your point...I think everyone knows that there is no such thing as a perfect back or perfect anything for that matter...Reggie has limitations just like every other RB's...But as far as what he brings to the table...It's double that of your run-of-the mill back...And Barry was the more talented back of him and Emmit...Emmit had the better career IMO, strictly due to the situation he was put in and Barry's early retirement...But as far as man vs. man..Barry was better hands down....and are you saying that RB's can't learn and get better ? Im not following you there...because it sounded like you were saying that RB's can't change their style to fit a system...and that IMO, is lunacy...
I think it makes perfect sense. Reggie is great at open field running, juking defenders, spin moves..etc. That is not what our team in now about. Morency was told directly, run "North/South", stop dancing around the line of scrimmage, or you wont run at all. What's the point of drafting Reggie Bush and putting him in an offense (with years of proven success, mind you, look at Denver's rushing stats during Kubiak's tenure) where he will not mesh with what everyone else is doing? Its that same thing as not allowing Vick to run or Manning to go no-huddle. If Kubiak is determined to implement his particular system, he should go after players that fit that system, not the most talanted ones.

To quote Miracle "Im not looking for the best players, Im looking for the right ones"

Wolf
08-28-2006, 07:57 PM
http://www.thedmonline.com/media/storage/paper876/news/2006/08/22/Sports/Texans.Veto.Of.Bush.The.Correct.Decision-2236791.shtml?norewrite200608282053&sourcedomain=www.thedmonline.com


figures this is not from the chron..

college student :hmmm:

edo783
08-28-2006, 08:35 PM
Pretty good analysis by a young guy. Beats the heck out of Richard the Duffas on the Chron.

real
08-29-2006, 09:50 AM
I think it makes perfect sense. Reggie is great at open field running, juking defenders, spin moves..etc. That is not what our team in now about. Morency was told directly, run "North/South", stop dancing around the line of scrimmage, or you wont run at all. What's the point of drafting Reggie Bush and putting him in an offense (with years of proven success, mind you, look at Denver's rushing stats during Kubiak's tenure) where he will not mesh with what everyone else is doing? Its that same thing as not allowing Vick to run or Manning to go no-huddle. If Kubiak is determined to implement his particular system, he should go after players that fit that system, not the most talanted ones.

To quote Miracle "Im not looking for the best players, Im looking for the right ones"

Now what are you talking about ? I did not one time say anything about drafting Reggie Bush...Don't assume....

real
08-29-2006, 09:53 AM
Im not saying that Bush is gonna be a bust or anything, although I do think he isnt worth $60M, but there is no way he has looked better then Morency. Watch that Rams game and just try to imagine Bush scoring that first TD...no way. 90 something yards on 11 carries and 2 TD's, one big 30+ yard run and one where he plowed over a Linebacker...

Also, Bush almost defies the point of a running game. If your RB gets 100 yards on 20 carries with a long of say 20, that helps your team throughtout the game a lot more then 100 yards on 20 caries with a long of 50. On a running team (which is what we are) you need first downs first, then big plays. If you can consistantly get 4 yards on a runnning play you are far more likley to win then averaging 2 yards a play with a big one thrown in once.

Are we talking individual performances or are we talking team ball ??? The TEXANS have looked better than the SAINTS running the ball, but as far as individual performances Bush has looked like the more talented back, and player...And you are talking about averages and Bush has a higher ypc average than both Lundy and Morency...