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View Full Version : Carr looking for his Tight Ends....


CaptainPatriot
08-25-2006, 10:15 PM
What is it going to take for DC to start looking at his TE's? Go back and look at the last 2 games Play by Play on NFL.com. DC has only thrown 2 passes to his TE's and that was back to back! Sage has thrown at leat 7 times to his TE's in the 2 Games! Haven`t even counted passes to RB's from Sage. I know Sage will not start. But is it a mental issue with DC that he doesn't look at at his TE's on a check down?

bayoudreamn
08-25-2006, 10:19 PM
What is it going to take for DC to start looking at his TE's? Go back and look at the last 2 games Play by Play on NFL.com. DC has only thrown 2 passes to his TE's and that was back to back! Sage has thrown at leat 7 times to his TE's in the 2 Games! Haven`t even counted passes to RB's from Sage. I know Sage will not start. But is it a mental issue with DC that he doesn't look at at his TE's on a check down?

Somebody just needs to tell him what a TE is....he probably forgot. He saw it by Bennie Joppru's name on the roster for years and thought it meant Traumatic Experiences

Vinny
08-25-2006, 10:20 PM
when you are O-fer on 3rd down passes the NFL makes you go to the sidelines and your defense comes in.

Scooter
08-25-2006, 10:29 PM
it's going to take time and kubiak kicking him in the rear for a few weeks. carr hasnt had a TE since billy miller played well in 02. also, he's more inclined to dump to the RB in TE situations because A) he was told to do so by capers & co, and B) he's been behind the worst line in NFL history - get it quick to DD so that he gets hit instead. i expect to for putz to be the most influential player in our passing attack (not necessarily the most catches, but as carr's safety net much like wycheck), but i dont think we'll see that until atleast a couple games in. there are a lot of bad habits to be hammered out of carr this year, this is one of them.

bayoudreamn
08-25-2006, 10:34 PM
it's going to take time and kubiak kicking him in the rear for a few weeks. carr hasnt had a TE since billy miller played well in 02. also, he's more inclined to dump to the RB in TE situations because A) he was told to do so by capers & co, and B) he's been behind the worst line in NFL history - get it quick to DD so that he gets hit instead. i expect to for putz to be the most influential player in our passing attack (not necessarily the most catches, but as carr's safety net much like wycheck), but i dont think we'll see that until atleast a couple games in. there are a lot of bad habits to be hammered out of carr this year, this is one of them.

There's always the chance that when the season starts and the real playbook is open some of the things we think we are struggling with will disappear. We have a coaching staff that's made some pretty drastic improvements. We may be ok.

Kaiser Toro
08-25-2006, 10:42 PM
it's going to take time and kubiak kicking him in the rear for a few weeks. carr hasnt had a TE since billy miller played well in 02. also, he's more inclined to dump to the RB in TE situations because A) he was told to do so by capers & co, and B) he's been behind the worst line in NFL history - get it quick to DD so that he gets hit instead. i expect to for putz to be the most influential player in our passing attack (not necessarily the most catches, but as carr's safety net much like wycheck), but i dont think we'll see that until atleast a couple games in. there are a lot of bad habits to be hammered out of carr this year, this is one of them.

Scooter when you are the #1 pick in the draft it is for a reason. I just do not buy that players of that suppossed talent level are stripped down and built up or down by coaches unless they were over hyped to begin with or their game does not transfer to speed of the NFL. You just do not forget how to play the game.

And this is not exclusive to Carr.

Scooter
08-25-2006, 11:00 PM
There's always the chance that when the season starts and the real playbook is open some of the things we think we are struggling with will disappear. We have a coaching staff that's made some pretty drastic improvements. We may be ok.

extremely possible. we dont know what areas they're more focusing on during preseason or how they're calling the games. it's very likely that kubiak's more comfortable with the putz & carr connection than any other area so they're focusing more on weaknesses. this week should be a bit of an indicator however because kubiak said that the staff will be treating this game much more like a regular season game from the coaching standpoint. much more preperation and studying than in previous weeks.

Scooter when you are the #1 pick in the draft it is for a reason. I just do not buy that players of that suppossed talent level are stripped down and built up or down by coaches unless they were over hyped to begin with or their game does not transfer to speed of the NFL. You just do not forget how to play the game.

And this is not exclusive to Carr.

honestly i think we'd be better off this year if carr were a rookie again because i feel that he really does have to be broken down & rebuilt ... as would any player who'd been taught to do things the wrong way for 4 consecutive years. not only do some areas have to be broken down (progressions, reads, movement), some have to be found again (confidance mainly - in himself, protection, & scheme). what carr's talent level then and now as the #1 means that it isnt going to take another 2-3 years to do so ... he should adapt and return to form much more quickly than a lesser talent.

Vinny
08-25-2006, 11:05 PM
honestly i think we'd be better off this year if carr were a rookie again because i feel that he really does have to be broken down & rebuilt ... as would any player who'd been taught to do things the wrong way for 4 consecutive years. not only do some areas have to be broken down (progressions, reads, movement), some have to be found again (confidance mainly - in himself, protection, & scheme). what carr's talent level then and now as the #1 means that it isnt going to take another 2-3 years to do so ... he should adapt and return to form much more quickly than a lesser talent.Good argument scooter but I think this is wildly overstated from our fans. So far Carr has been nothing less than a workout warrior in his 60 NFL starts. Many of the teams problems come from the weaknesses in his game never progressing. To me he is a physical prototype with no instinct and a poor feel for the game and I pointed many of these problems out right off the bat many moons ago.....fast forward 60 starts and his weaknesses are still unimproved. I'm not sure how much coaching will be needed to get him up to speed.

Scooter
08-25-2006, 11:15 PM
Good argument scooter but I think this is wildly overstated from our fans. So far Carr has been nothing less than a workout warrior in his 60 NFL starts. Many of the teams problems come from the weaknesses in his game never progressing. To me he is a physical prototype with no instinct and a poor feel for the game and I pointed many of these problems out right off the bat many moons ago.....fast forward 60 starts and his weaknesses are still unimproved. I'm not sure how much coaching will be needed to get him up to speed.

i agree completely. what i liken him to however is jake plummer. talent without team and without coaching gets you nowhere. jake didnt progress, and arguably got worse in arizona ... being on a bad team with bad coaching puts a quarterback in limbo at best. put him in denver with fantastic coaching and good scheme, and he goes to the probowl. jake plummer didnt and doesnt have the physical talent that carr does, but coaching was able to correct the previous flaws, and develope healthy habits that made him a better player. i firmly believe carr is in the exact same situation. he now has better players around him, a better scheme to exploit his strengths, but IMO it's still going to take a little time to remove bad habits and be coached into good habits.

GP
08-25-2006, 11:15 PM
Good argument scooter but I think this is wildly overstated from our fans. So far Carr has been nothing less than a workout warrior in his 60 NFL starts. Many of the teams problems come from the weaknesses in his game never progressing. To me he is a physical prototype with no instinct and a poor feel for the game and I pointed many of these problems out right off the bat many moons ago.....fast forward 60 starts and his weaknesses are still unimproved. I'm not sure how much coaching will be needed to get him up to speed.

I guess we're going to find out, aren't we?

Michael Vick is in the same boat IMO. He's been touted e-v-e-r-y year as the next big thing...and now he's been relegated to ho-hum status by most fantasy football gurus. They're just tired of the hype.

Falcons have a guy in Matt Schaub who could probably guide that team to a better record, but.....they just can't seem to hand it over to him yet. I'm anxious to see what happens in Houston and Atlanta this season. Two teams whose QB is a physical prototype but hasn't produced to the expectations of all involved. Should be interesting to see it unfold. And that's the fun of NFL to me: Watching things develop and seeing how they turn out. And winning...I guess that's kind of a big deal too.

Vinny
08-25-2006, 11:21 PM
i agree completely. what i liken him to however is jake plummer. talent without team and without coaching gets you nowhere. jake didnt progress, and arguably got worse in arizona ... being on a bad team with bad coaching puts a quarterback in limbo at best. put him in denver with fantastic coaching and good scheme, and he goes to the probowl. jake plummer didnt and doesnt have the physical talent that carr does, but coaching was able to correct the previous flaws, and develope healthy habits that made him a better player. i firmly believe carr is in the exact same situation. he now has better players around him, a better scheme to exploit his strengths, but IMO it's still going to take a little time to remove bad habits and be coached into good habits.I agree to some extent but when you look at Denver they drafted Cutler in the first round this last year for a reason. Carr isn't anywhere near as good as Plummer right now and apparently he isn't good enough for them.

GP
08-25-2006, 11:22 PM
i agree completely. what i liken him to however is jake plummer. talent without team and without coaching gets you nowhere. jake didnt progress, and arguably got worse in arizona ... being on a bad team with bad coaching puts a quarterback in limbo at best. put him in denver with fantastic coaching and good scheme, and he goes to the probowl. jake plummer didnt and doesnt have the physical talent that carr does, but coaching was able to correct the previous flaws, and develope healthy habits that made him a better player. i firmly believe carr is in the exact same situation. he now has better players around him, a better scheme to exploit his strengths, but IMO it's still going to take a little time to remove bad habits and be coached into good habits.

Something I have been thinking about: One guy plays like hell itself is chasing him and that he's got nothing to lose. And another guy plays like everything is still oke-dokey if we don't win. Both are talented. Both were on bad teams and are now on good teams. But are both guys the same from a mental standpoint? Does one guy play to win, and one guy plays NOT to lose? Does one guy see football as his only real love, and one guy sees family and faith as the real source of contentment? Cuz I gotta' tell you something: IN the NFL, it sure seems like you better have your head on a swivel come game day. You better act like you're treading through the jungle and it's survival of the fittest out there.

Not banging our guy. I have taken a lot of bullets for him on this board. Stayed up many nights trying to fight the haters (and not everyone of them was a true hater, but still nonetheless...).

It's just that you can't get around facts. And at the end of the day, David needs to get his inner "bad arse" on and play like each game is his last. I see him tryihng to do that, in subtle ways, but he might need to really get freaky and go wild on someone...get in a receiver's face and grab his facemask after a dropped ball. That's what I want to see. Inner bad arse.

texflex513
08-25-2006, 11:24 PM
What is it going to take for DC to start looking at his TE's? Go back and look at the last 2 games Play by Play on NFL.com. DC has only thrown 2 passes to his TE's and that was back to back! Sage has thrown at leat 7 times to his TE's in the 2 Games! Haven`t even counted passes to RB's from Sage. I know Sage will not start. But is it a mental issue with DC that he doesn't look at at his TE's on a check down?

If you recall billy miller was the closest thing to a recieving TE that we had and he was david's favorite target. They hooked up often... It has only been 2 PRESEASON games give him time to adapt during the regular season im sure daniels and putzier will get plenty of balls their way.

Kaiser Toro
08-25-2006, 11:28 PM
Inner bad arse.

Waiter, I will have the Inner Bad Arse and a coke with no ice. Call it whatever you will, but we all want to see it.

Napa Auto Parts
08-25-2006, 11:29 PM
oh man another bash the golden boy that does no wrong thread homers get ready.

GP
08-25-2006, 11:35 PM
oh man another bash the golden boy that does no wrong thread homers get ready.

Ducks quack.

Kittens Mee-ow.

And Texans message board posters debate the Great David Carr topic.

It's what we do. We need to all embrace it, accept it. And just learn to cope with the pain and discomfort.

run-david-run
08-25-2006, 11:42 PM
Or hope he throws for 5000 yards and 49 TD's! Oh, and we go 19-0..that should keep most of us happy...for one season

Scooter
08-25-2006, 11:44 PM
I agree to some extent but when you look at Denver they drafted Cutler in the first round this last year for a reason. Carr isn't anywhere near as good as Plummer right now and apparently he isn't good enough for them.

sorry, i'm just being arguementative at this point:shots: ... carr hasnt had the chance to be as good as plummer yet. and something that everyone seems to forget is that plummer's worst season as a bronco ended up being worth 4000+ yards and 27td's. last year he went 9-1 at home and took his team to the AFC championship game (and we're going to faint over a .500 season). denver drafted cutler looking for "the next elway" (and the kid's pretty dang good whether you need a qb or not) ... a 31 year old plummer wont reach elway status even if they win the SB this year.

Vinny
08-25-2006, 11:48 PM
I think that if they thought Plummer was good enough to lead them to a Super Bowl they would have drafted someone else. I agree that Plummer in Arizona had better years than Carr has ever had here. Carr hasn't been able to carry this team in tight situations at all.

Vinny
08-25-2006, 11:50 PM
Or hope he throws for 5000 yards and 49 TD's! Oh, and we go 19-0..that should keep most of us happy...for one seasonI'd be happy if he converted more 3rd down passes.

texflex513
08-25-2006, 11:51 PM
I'd be happy if he converted more 3rd down passes.

I agree the last game we stunk on 3rd down.

JDizzle
08-25-2006, 11:59 PM
Eh, I'm tired of arguing with Carr sympathizers. I hope he drops bombs on the NFL this season. That means the Texans do well.

Though some of you guys should acknowledge the possibility of Carr getting benched halfway through the season. And if he does, maybe you can throw beer at Sage's wife.

I don't care if Airbud is under center, I just wanna win.

infantrycak
08-26-2006, 12:11 AM
oh man another bash the golden boy that does no wrong thread homers get ready.

Get over yourself and your martyrdom of being on one side of a debate. There are plenty of folks on both sides of the Carr debate and a ton of folks in the middle who see what is going on. This continual whaaa my pee pee hurts from either extreme is tiresome.

Scooter
08-26-2006, 12:12 AM
I think that if they thought Plummer was good enough to lead them to a Super Bowl they would have drafted someone else. I agree that Plummer in Arizona had better years than Carr has ever had here. Carr hasn't been able to carry this team in tight situations at all.

i never said that. plummer threw for more td's than int's only once in 6 years, and never crossed the 60% completion mark (carr did each in the last two years, on an expansion team coached by capers) ... both topping out with 7 wins in a season. carr is younger, a better athlete, more talented, and with more success (individually at the time). i find it very hard to believe that carr cant be improved upon significantly with the tools that he has, and with proper coaching become great.

losing in the AFC championship game to the SB winners is a long way away from "not good enough to lead them to a super bowl". i dont believe that to be what they thought. they found a stud in an area that they had zero depth and an aging starter. being denver there's always that elway factor and they saw that potential with great timing.

The Pencil Neck
08-26-2006, 12:12 AM
What is it going to take for DC to start looking at his TE's? Go back and look at the last 2 games Play by Play on NFL.com. DC has only thrown 2 passes to his TE's and that was back to back! Sage has thrown at leat 7 times to his TE's in the 2 Games! Haven`t even counted passes to RB's from Sage. I know Sage will not start. But is it a mental issue with DC that he doesn't look at at his TE's on a check down?

Actually, hasn't he thrown to the TE's more than that but he's had the plays nullified because of penalties?

Vinny
08-26-2006, 12:42 AM
i never said that. plummer threw for more td's than int's only once in 6 years, and never crossed the 60% completion mark (carr did each in the last two years, on an expansion team coached by capers) ... both topping out with 7 wins in a season. carr is younger, a better athlete, more talented, and with more success (individually at the time). i find it very hard to believe that carr cant be improved upon significantly with the tools that he has, and with proper coaching become great.

losing in the AFC championship game to the SB winners is a long way away from "not good enough to lead them to a super bowl". i dont believe that to be what they thought. they found a stud in an area that they had zero depth and an aging starter. being denver there's always that elway factor and they saw that potential with great timing.what I meant was Plumber had some actual production on really bad teams. He had managed to hold up to his hype to win some games on his talent even though he had obvious flaws. Plumber won some games on his arm and led some great comebacks from time to time but Carr hasn't done that. You point to more spec...more potential. Plumber had at least flashed he could hurt an NFL defense. I've only see us ride to victory on the fabled arm of David Carr on rare occasion. He lit up a bad Cowboy team on his first game, and he lit up a really bad Viking defense two years ago. There are a couple of moments outside of those two examples but it's largely been 58 games of the same ol' same ol.

Scooter
08-26-2006, 01:23 AM
very true, and all i can do is speculate and make excuses. i ofcourse dont need to elaborate on them, but the excuses being corey bradford, dom capers, and joe pendry just to name a few. i didnt watch enough cardinals games to say "the team sucks, but plummer is pulling his weight" and i find it hard to believe that you've kept up that much with them, but i'll just have to trust you here. what i find funny however is that carr's "minnesota comeback" was full of great catches ... it might just be me, but dont most successful passing teams see those catches almost every week? vinny, you know better than anyone to say that with bradford and AJ starting that we had any hands. we catch the ball for an entire half and it's one of our best passing games ever. carr calls his own plays for one half and it's our most successful offense to date. i put 90% of carr's failings on cast & crew. while that might seem to make me a carr homer, i promise i'm not ... i just think he got screwed and (with time) that kubiak can fix it.

we havent had a winning season in 4 years, and just picked first again ... i know we're proud, but during our tenure, we're probably the worst team in football. we are as bad, if not worse than the cardinals are and carr's put up positive numbers.

edit: btw, i enjoy the arguement V ... gotta spread the rep before finding you again.

texan279
08-26-2006, 01:56 AM
what I meant was Plumber had some actual production on really bad teams. He had managed to hold up to his hype to win some games on his talent even though he had obvious flaws. Plumber won some games on his arm and led some great comebacks from time to time but Carr hasn't done that. You point to more spec...more potential. Plumber had at least flashed he could hurt an NFL defense. I've only see us ride to victory on the fabled arm of David Carr on rare occasion. He lit up a bad Cowboy team on his first game, and he lit up a really bad Viking defense two years ago. There are a couple of moments outside of those two examples but it's largely been 58 games of the same ol' same ol.


Here is a list I made of some of Carr's games that I consider "good" games. I also listed the team's overall defensive ranking for the teams he played against. I also listed how many points our defense allowed in those games and the overall offensive ranking of the teams that scored against our defense. Take a look at what Carr has done in the past against some good defense's (9 of them ranked in the top 10 overall). Then take a look at the points our defense has allowed against some bad offense's (8 of them ranked 15th overall or lower).

10/20/02 22/36 267 yards 1 TD 0 INT vs. Cleveland (Loss) 10th ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 34 points against CLE's 19th ranked offense

11/17/02 22/30 228 yards 1 TD 1 INT vs. Jacksonville (Loss) 9th ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 24 points against JAC's 21st ranked offense

09/07/03 17/31 266 yards 1 TD 0 INT vs. (Win) Miami 3rd ranked defense
HOU defense allowed 20 points against Miami's 24th ranked offense

09/28/03 23/36 234 yards 1 TD 1 INT vs. Jacksonville (Win) 6th ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 20 points against Jacksonville's 25th ranked offense

10/26/03 8/9 62 yards 1 TD 0 INT vs. Indy (Loss) 11th ranked defense
HOU defense allowed 30 points against INDY's 2nd ranked offense

09/19/04 23/34 313 yards 2 TD 1 INT vs. Detroit (Loss) 18th ranked defense
HOU defense allowed 28 points against Detroit's 24th ranked offense

10/10/04 27/42 372 yards 3 TD 0 INT vs. Minnesota (Loss) 26th ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 34 points agains MINN's 6th ranked offense

10/17/04 16/26 266 yards 1 TD 1 INT vs. Tennessee (Win) 27th ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 10 points against TENN's 11th ranked offense

10/31/04 26/34 276 yards 1 TD 0 INT vs. Jacksonville (Win) 7th ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 6 points against JAC's 29th ranked offense

11/07/04 22/41 245 yards 0 TD 0 INT vs. Denver (Loss) 4th ranked defense
HOU defense allowed 31 points against DEN's 9th ranked offense

09/18/05 16/26 167 yards 1 TD 0 INT vs. Pittsburgh (Loss) 3rd ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 27 points against PIT's 9th ranked offense

10/02/05 17/26 174 yards 1 TD 0 INT vs. Cincinatti (Loss) 22nd ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 16 points against CIN's 4th ranked offense

11/06/05 22/30 219 yards 1 TD 0 INT vs. Jacksonville (Loss) 6th ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 21 points against JAC's 15th ranked offense

11/27/05 25/34 293 yards 3 TD 1 INT vs. St Louis (Loss) 31st ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 33 points against STL's 11th ranked offense

12/24/05 19/29 295 yards 2 TD 1 INT vs. Jacksonville (Loss) 6th ranked def.
HOU defense allowed 38 points against JAC's 15th ranked offense

I have listed 15 games out of Carr's career that I consider "good games" of his. Nine of these games were against top 10 overall defenses. Out of these fifteen games, we won four of them. Instead of having to ride Carr's arm, maybe the defense should step up, or a WR make something special happen after a catch, or special teams step up. None of the games I listed would I consider "bad", in fact in all 15 of these games, Carr completed more than 55% of his passes and never threw more INT's than TD's in any of these games. You guys can accuse me of being a Carr lover or whatever, but if we are going to rip on Carr for losing games or blame him for not being able to ride his arm in the past where he at least played decent, why not rip on our horrible defense or other subpar components of the team who have failed in the past?

Vinny
08-26-2006, 02:05 AM
lol

texan279
08-26-2006, 02:15 AM
lol

Awww, come on Vinny, you at least got to give me an A for effort...:neener:

Vinny
08-26-2006, 02:16 AM
That's a lot of cut n pasting...I'll give you that much. :)

texan279
08-26-2006, 02:18 AM
That's a lot of cut n pasting...I'll give you that much. :)

Nah, I didn't cut and paste, I actually typed everything out, it was a pain in the rear lol. I was using four web pages at once. Sorry, I am not trying to derail this thread, carry on everyone.

Napa Auto Parts
08-26-2006, 02:26 AM
lol




just admit it Vinny your a david carr basher and you have no one to blame but yourself. may be if you had lower expectations of him it wouldnt bother you.:rolleyes:

Vinny
08-26-2006, 02:30 AM
just admit it Vinny your a david carr basher and you have no one to blame but yourself. may be if you had lower expectations of him it wouldnt bother you.:rolleyes:
I'm still not sure how I was supposed to answer that post. 11 of those games had one TD or less. I just had to laugh.

Scooter
08-26-2006, 03:05 AM
I'm still not sure how I was supposed to answer that post. 11 of those games had one TD or less. I just had to laugh.

and we've made our way back to the origional post. now we have kubiak and tight ends. can you honestly fault the quarterback if he throws for 60% or better and 250+ yards, but only winds up with 1TD? playcalling, drops, and an innefective redzone run game are the obvious culprits ... to me atleast. our TE's had ZERO touchdowns last season, and only 1 touchdown in 04 that i can find. i will not blame david carr for that fact. before you say anything, our leading TE last season was rivers (about #6 on the depth chart if he tried out for this team) and the year before was miller ... who despite being a fan favorite, hasnt found a home since the texans. tight ends are redzone gold if you've got them, however carr was trained to find the backs instead, and even when he did look for the TE, they couldnt catch what hit them in the chest.

Hulk75
08-26-2006, 08:45 AM
What is it going to take for DC to start looking at his TE's? Go back and look at the last 2 games Play by Play on NFL.com. DC has only thrown 2 passes to his TE's and that was back to back! Sage has thrown at leat 7 times to his TE's in the 2 Games! Haven`t even counted passes to RB's from Sage. I know Sage will not start. But is it a mental issue with DC that he doesn't look at at his TE's on a check down?
They are not open every play.:brickwall

texan279
08-26-2006, 09:33 AM
I'm still not sure how I was supposed to answer that post. 11 of those games had one TD or less. I just had to laugh.

I did some research on Plummer....listed below is every game Plummer played in with the Cardinals that they won...look at all of those games with one TD or less...22 games out of 32 he threw 1 TD or less...

week 10 1997 win vs. Philly Plummer was 7/18 132 yards 1 TD 1 INT
week 13 1997 win vs. Balt. Plummer was 19/34 218 yards 1 TD 2 INT
week 17 1997 win vs. Atl. Plummer was 19/40 237 yards 3 TD 2 INT
week 3 1998 win vs. Philly Plummer was 21/35 137 yards 1 TD 0 INT
week 4 1998 win vs. STL Plummer was 21/31 211 yards 1 TD 1 INT
week 6 1998 win vs. Chicago Plummer was 18/25 157 yards 0 TD 2 INT
week 9 1998 win vs. Det. Plummer was 15/25 198 yards 2 TD 1 INT
week 10 1998 win vs. was. Plummer was 22/30 186 yards 1 TD 0 INT
week 12 1998 win vs. Was. Plummer was 17/28 251 yards 2 TD 1 INT
week 15 1998 win vs. Phi. Plummer was 18/26 234 yards 1 TD 1 INT
week 16 1998 win vs. NO Plummer was 32/44 394 yards 0 TD 1 INT
week 17 1998 win vs. SDG Plummer was 20/41 274 yards 0 TD 0 INT
week 1 1999 win vs. PHI Plummer was 25/48 274 yards 1 TD 3 INT
week 5 1999 win vs. NYG Plummer was 13/19 156 yards 1 TD 0 INT
week 12 1999 win vs. NYG Plummer was 12/18 125 yards 2 TD 0 INT
week 13 1999 win vs. Philly Plummer was 20/37 179 yards 1 TD 1 INT
week 2 2000 win vs. DAL Plummer was 18/24 243 yards 2 TD 0 INT
week 6 2000 win vs. CLE Plummer was 17/30 171 yards 2 TD 0 INT
week 10 2000 win vs. WAS Plummer was 12/19 146 yards 0 TD 1 INT
week 3 2001 win vs. ATL Plummer was 23/35 276 yards 1 TD 3 INT
week 6 2001 win vs. KAN Plummer was 16/25 228 yards 1 TD 0 INT
week 10 2001 win vs. DET Plummer was 21/33 334 yards 4 TD 1 INT
week 11 2001 win vs. SDG Plummer was 19/31 241 yards 1 TD 2 INT
week 12 2001 win vs. Oakland Plummer was 22/38 249 yards 1 TD 0 INT
week 15 2001 win vs. DAL Plummer was 17/31 144 yards 0 TD 0 INT
week 16 2001 win vs. CAR Plummer was 12/23 173 yards 2 TD 0 INT
week 2 2002 win vs. SEA Plummer was 10/22 107 yards 1 TD 1 INT
week 4 2002 win vs. NYG Plummer was 23/32 168 yards 1 TD 0 INT
week 5 2002 win vs. CAR Plummer was 18/40 221 yards 1 TD 1 INT
week 7 2002 win vs. DAL Plummer was 23/46 232 yards 0 TD 0 INT
week 14 2002 win vs. DET Plummer was 24/43 268 yards 2 TD 1 INT
week 3 2003 win vs. OAK Plummer was 14/21 197 yards 2 TD 0 INT

Kaiser Toro
08-26-2006, 09:43 AM
Texan279. You need to watch the games to understand what Vincenzo and I are saying or revert to your playing days in organized sport. Plummer made a lot of mistakes on a bad team, but late in the game the guy would "rally" his team where he would mobilize a bunch of awful players who had nothing to play for, into a unit. He would do things that showed you a glimpse that there was something intangible there that you knew at any time he could summon.

Carr on the other hand has shown me great tangibles - toughness, arm strength, being a good guy, but there has not been a game where I been in awe and thought to myself, "there it is, that defining moment." Sure he had the TD against the Jags, but I want to see him make plays starting in the pocket when the chips are down and they have been down quite often. Somewere along the line his talent had to have transferred and overcome any bad coaching or talent around him. That is what the great ones do every game.

This has always been a "feel" thing for me and admittedly it is impossible to measure and hard for many to understand. Couch is another example of this. Montana is on the extreme opposite end.

texan279
08-26-2006, 09:49 AM
Texan279. You need to watch the games to understand what Vincenzo and I are saying or revert to your playing days in organized sport. Plummer made a lot of mistakes on a bad team, but late in the game the guy would "rally" his team where he would mobilize a bunch of awful players who had nothing to play for, into a unit. He would do things that showed you a glimpse that there was something intangible there that you knew at any time he could summon.

Carr on the other hand has shown me great tangibles - toughness, arm strength, being a good guy, but there has not been a game where I been in awe and thought to myself, "there it is, that defining moment." Sure he had the TD against the Jags, but I want to see him make plays starting in the pocket when the chips are down and they have been down quite often. Somewere along the line his talent had to have transferred and overcome any bad coaching or talent around him. That is what the great ones do every game.

This has always been a "feel" thing for me and admittedly it is impossible to measure and hard for many to understand. Couch is another example of this. Montana is on the extreme opposite end.

I am not really debating the fact that Plummer would rally the team or lead comebacks, my last post was in reply to his post laughing at the games I posted where Carr had only 1 or 0 TD's.

infantrycak
08-26-2006, 09:54 AM
Blah--c'mon game day.

Kaiser Toro
08-26-2006, 10:23 AM
Blah--

I find taking a toothbrush to my tongue helps with that. :)

Vinny
08-26-2006, 10:28 AM
Texan279. You need to watch the games to understand what Vincenzo and I are saying..No doubt...No offense but people who post stats as 'proof' a guy can play have no clue to begin with. Football is not a game like baseball where you can look at a stat line and determine the talent of skills of a player. Just posting a ton of stats and saying a guy is this or that is folly and borderline amusing imo.

texan279
08-26-2006, 10:36 AM
No doubt...No offense but people who post stats as 'proof' a guy can play have no clue to begin with. Football is not a game like baseball where you can look at a stat line and determine the talent of skills of a player. Just posting a ton of stats and saying a guy is this or that is folly and borderline amusing imo.

I was just responding to your post laughing at me because you said 11 of the 15 games I posted of Carr's only had 1 or less TD passes thrown so I posted all of Plummer's games, which most had 1 TD pass or less as well. I am not trying to convey that a stat line is a tell all for NFL players, or that the stats I posted automatically make Carr a Pro Bowl QB, but if you think they have no bearing on a player's ability why pick out one ceratin stat out of the stat lines I posted and laugh at it?

Vinny
08-26-2006, 10:39 AM
I was just responding to your post laughing at me because you said 11 of the 15 games I posted of Carr's only had 1 or less TD passes thrown so I posted all of Plummer's games, which most had 1 TD pass or less as well. I am not trying to convey that a stat line is a tell all for NFL players, but if you think they have no bearing on a player's ability why pick out one ceratin stat out of the stat lines I posted and laugh?
I found that equally as weak...and I also stated I didn't think Plumber was worth much either since I stated earlier in the thread that the Broncos thought he was so great that they drafted a QB in the first round to replace him....but IF YOU WATCH HIM PLAY you can see some intangibles. You can't see intangibles or a nice pass into the second level or splitting the seam in a cover two zone with 11-21 1TD as an example. Eight hitch passes look the same as 8 passes downfield on a stat line.

Lucky
08-26-2006, 10:50 AM
...and I also stated I didn't think Plumber was worth much either since I stated earlier in the thread that the Broncos thought he was so great that they drafted a QB in the first round to replace him...
Using the same logic, the Texans and Kubiak must think Carr is worth a lot. Seeing that they gave him the big bonus and bypassed all of the 1st round QBs. Right?

You say watch the games and I'll see what you see in Carr. I don't, I see something else. Where does that leave us but to continue watching the games?

texan279
08-26-2006, 10:53 AM
I found that equally as weak...and I also stated I didn't think Plumber was worth much either since I stated earlier in the thread that the Broncos thought he was so great that they drafted a QB in the first round to replace him....but IF YOU WATCH HIM PLAY you can see some intangibles. You can't see intangibles or a nice pass into the second level or splitting the seam in a cover two zone with 11-21 1TD as an example. Eight hitch passes look the same as 8 passes downfield on a stat line.

I understand that and posted earlier in the thread that a stat line and Plummer leading comebacks, making nice throws, etc. have nothing to do with one another. My original reasponse was to your previous thread when you said we have rarely ridden Carr's arm to a win or Carr has never or rarely led a comeback (cannot remember verbatum). My point of posting Carr's stats in those 15 games was because I considered those games "good" games for a QB, over 55% completion percentage in all the games and more TD passes than INT's and most of those games we lost. For the majority of our last four seasons we had to play catch up in games, but it's hard to lead come from behind wins with bad coaching, a bad offensive line, no TE's, a defense that lets opposing offenses score at will, and only one real threat at WR, especially when opposing defenses know you are going to pass and just bring the house everytime. Or in the rare instance we did have a lead, Capers would sit on it and expect our horrible defense to try to prevent opposing offenses from scoring. I'm not saying Carr is a pro bowl QB, IMO at this point he is an average QB, whether it be from poor coaching the last 4 seasons, lack of talent around him, or being sacked record numbers of times, or whatever. Like I told KT earlier, I am giving him one season, maybe one and a half seasons to live up to expectations, and that is only because of the new coaches, new schemes, and the new players added, but I am giving the entire team a clean slate, although some probably won't agree with me on that. Sorry if this post went trailing off, I just kept having thoughts pop into my head and I am going on no sleep right now.

Vinny
08-26-2006, 10:55 AM
You consider that "good quarterbacking" all you want...but I have all those films on tape and imo he doesn't look very good to me. You have your eye for the game and I have mine....We don't see the same things obviously, but I'll tell you every time that you can't judge players on a stat line...at least not in football.

infantrycak
08-26-2006, 11:07 AM
We don't see the same things obviously, but I'll tell you every time that you can't judge players on a stat line...at least not in football.

Stats don't play near as much of a role as in baseball but they aren't useless either. IMO they are readily used to counter many miconceptions which arise--DD too small, Ryans too small, identifying what is or is not out of norm for the league for dropped passes, balls batted down, etc. Football players can't be judged by a stat line, but stats can refine and knock the edges off impressions from watching the games.

FYI--it is Plummer, not Plumber.

Vinny
08-26-2006, 11:16 AM
Stats don't play near as much of a role as in baseball but they aren't useless either. IMO they are readily used to counter many miconceptions which arise--DD too small, Ryans too small, identifying what is or is not out of norm for the league for dropped passes, balls batted down, etc. Football players can't be judged by a stat line, but stats can refine and knock the edges off impressions from watching the games.

FYI--it is Plummer, not Plumber.
lol...I guess he reminds me of a plumber when he plays. Stats have their place but you can't tell 8 hitch passes with yac from 8 good plays down the field beating a solid defense. You can also "give" a QB the underneath and that just artificially pumps up his ratings...all worthless stuff when it comes to breaking down the realities of their games. Just look at Jon Wells. Half the board here thought he was as talented as Dom Davis...based on comparable stats. Funny how not a single team in the NFL thought he was even worth bringing into camp.

tsip
08-26-2006, 02:52 PM
You consider that "good quarterbacking" all you want...but I have all those films on tape and imo he doesn't look very good to me. You have your eye for the game and I have mine....We don't see the same things obviously, but I'll tell you every time that you can't judge players on a stat line...at least not in football.


Vinny, I know the frustration of trying to deal with Carr :homer:'s on any type of reasonable/sensible level, but IMO it's impossible. Why? To them (and some have even posted as such), this is Carr's first 'real' year because he was 'screwed' so bad his first 4 yrs by everything/anything so they don't count.

Already, because of Carr's less than 'stellar' performance in pre-season, the initial time frame they gave for Carr to 'finally' show his stuff, is changing. IMO, it started at 6 games-then half season-then the entire season-then a season and a half, etc. Will Carr grow too old first?

I suspect most of these same posters bought into Caper's BS right up to the moment he was fired, thinking-somehow/someway the 'demise' of the team was not his fault--'give him one more chance.'

I'm just going to sit back this year and watch how everything unfolds, hopefully more good than bad. Maybe David bought into that assertion by Palmer the very first year when he said the offense was only learning a small part of his 'playbook' the first year and-it would take years to learn it all. Of coures, we know now that the team never moved forward on that playbook, backwards instead. So, yes indeed, those first '4' years were a 'circus ride.'

It's a new day, a new beginning--new oppurtunities--positive changes to the team everywhere...There is absolutely 'no reason' not to expect a 'higher' level of play/results from every player on this team, every player...:cowboy1:

Hulk75
08-26-2006, 03:53 PM
Texan279. You need to watch the games to understand what Vincenzo and I are saying or revert to your playing days in organized sport. Plummer made a lot of mistakes on a bad team, but late in the game the guy would "rally" his team where he would mobilize a bunch of awful players who had nothing to play for, into a unit. He would do things that showed you a glimpse that there was something intangible there that you knew at any time he could summon.

Carr on the other hand has shown me great tangibles - toughness, arm strength, being a good guy, but there has not been a game where I been in awe and thought to myself, "there it is, that defining moment." Sure he had the TD against the Jags, but I want to see him make plays starting in the pocket when the chips are down and they have been down quite often. Somewere along the line his talent had to have transferred and overcome any bad coaching or talent around him. That is what the great ones do every game.
This has always been a "feel" thing for me and admittedly it is impossible to measure and hard for many to understand. Couch is another example of this. Montana is on the extreme opposite end.
That is so false! Thats all I will say.

texan279
08-26-2006, 04:32 PM
Vinny, I know the frustration of trying to deal with Carr :homer:'s on any type of reasonable/sensible level, but IMO it's impossible. Why? To them (and some have even posted as such), this is Carr's first 'real' year because he was 'screwed' so bad his first 4 yrs by everything/anything so they don't count.

Already, because of Carr's less than 'stellar' performance in pre-season, the initial time frame they gave for Carr to 'finally' show his stuff, is changing. IMO, it started at 6 games-then half season-then the entire season-then a season and a half, etc. Will Carr grow too old first?

I suspect most of these same posters bought into Caper's BS right up to the moment he was fired, thinking-somehow/someway the 'demise' of the team was not his fault--'give him one more chance.'

I'm just going to sit back this year and watch how everything unfolds, hopefully more good than bad. Maybe David bought into that assertion by Palmer the very first year when he said the offense was only learning a small part of his 'playbook' the first year and-it would take years to learn it all. Of coures, we know now that the team never moved forward on that playbook, backwards instead. So, yes indeed, those first '4' years were a 'circus ride.'

It's a new day, a new beginning--new oppurtunities--positive changes to the team everywhere...There is absolutely 'no reason' not to expect a 'higher' level of play/results from every player on this team, every player...:cowboy1:

Better go back and read my posts. One, I am no Carr homer, just because I defend the guy does not make me a honer. Two, go back and re read both of the preseason game threads, I said Carr looked "shaky", "made several bad decisions", "made several bad throws", "made several mistakes", and "did not look comfortable". Three, the timetable I personally set for Carr was 1 - 1/2 seasons, and I stated that long BEFORE preseason even started, go check my posts. Fourth, I was never fond of Capers to begin with and didn't "buy into" anything he said.

tsip
08-26-2006, 05:40 PM
"Better go back and read my posts. One, I am no Carr homer, just because I defend the guy does not make me a honer. Two, go back and re read both of the preseason game threads, I said Carr looked "shaky", "made several bad decisions", "made several bad throws", "made several mistakes", and "did not look comfortable". Three, the timetable I personally set for Carr was 1 - 1/2 seasons, and I stated that long BEFORE preseason even started, go check my posts. Fourth, I was never fond of Capers to begin with and didn't "buy into" anything he said."
__________________


If my post was intended for you, personally, it would have had your name on it...geezzzzzzzzzzzz

texan279
08-26-2006, 05:42 PM
"Better go back and read my posts. One, I am no Carr homer, just because I defend the guy does not make me a honer. Two, go back and re read both of the preseason game threads, I said Carr looked "shaky", "made several bad decisions", "made several bad throws", "made several mistakes", and "did not look comfortable". Three, the timetable I personally set for Carr was 1 - 1/2 seasons, and I stated that long BEFORE preseason even started, go check my posts. Fourth, I was never fond of Capers to begin with and didn't "buy into" anything he said."
__________________


If my post was intended for you, personally, it would have had your name on it...geezzzzzzzzzzzz

Well I was one of about two here discussing Carr with Vinny so it was either directed towards me or infantrycak, unless you just felt the need to jump in the thread and bash on "Carr homers"...

Jwwillis
08-26-2006, 06:40 PM
Get over yourself and your martyrdom of being on one side of a debate. There are plenty of folks on both sides of the Carr debate and a ton of folks in the middle who see what is going on. This continual whaaa my pee pee hurts from either extreme is tiresome.

:ROFL:

Whaa my pee pee hurts??

Vinny
08-26-2006, 06:47 PM
Using the same logic, the Texans and Kubiak must think Carr is worth a lot. Seeing that they gave him the big bonus and bypassed all of the 1st round QBs. Right?What, so you are saying they can't be wrong? The Broncos liked Griese and Tommy Maddux at one time too. Here in Texanville Kubiak chose the vet instead of taking a rookie going with Carr for this season season - A vet who is still running on spec and isn't proven mind you. I'm willing to bet the Kubiak/McNair brain trust could possibly be as wrong about Carr as the Broncos were about Griese and Plummer (since they are replacing him now) Right?

bayoudreamn
08-27-2006, 09:56 AM
What, so you are saying they can't be wrong? The Broncos liked Griese and Tommy Maddux at one time too. Here in Texanville Kubiak chose the vet instead of taking a rookie going with Carr for this season season - A vet who is still running on spec and isn't proven mind you. I'm willing to bet the Kubiak/McNair brain trust could possibly be as wrong about Carr as the Broncos were about Griese and Plummer (since they are replacing him now) Right?

I don't know if you are right or not....but your posts are beginning to give the impression that you think there's less chance of you being wrong than the Texans coaches.

CaptainPatriot
08-27-2006, 10:54 AM
it's going to take time and kubiak kicking him in the rear for a few weeks. carr hasnt had a TE since billy miller played well in 02. also, he's more inclined to dump to the RB in TE situations because A) he was told to do so by capers & co, and B) he's been behind the worst line in NFL history - get it quick to DD so that he gets hit instead. i expect to for putz to be the most influential player in our passing attack (not necessarily the most catches, but as carr's safety net much like wycheck), but i dont think we'll see that until atleast a couple games in. there are a lot of bad habits to be hammered out of carr this year, this is one of them.

To be devils advocate should Sage start on game day since he is able to find his TE`s already? Itís a new system for Sage also.Then when DC comes up to speed he can become the starter again?

CaptainPatriot
08-27-2006, 10:57 AM
I guess we're going to find out, aren't we?

Michael Vick is in the same boat IMO. He's been touted e-v-e-r-y year as the next big thing...and now he's been relegated to ho-hum status by most fantasy football gurus. They're just tired of the hype.

Falcons have a guy in Matt Schaub who could probably guide that team to a better record, but.....they just can't seem to hand it over to him yet. I'm anxious to see what happens in Houston and Atlanta this season. Two teams whose QB is a physical prototype but hasn't produced to the expectations of all involved. Should be interesting to see it unfold. And that's the fun of NFL to me: Watching things develop and seeing how they turn out. And winning...I guess that's kind of a big deal too.


good point!

Scooter
08-27-2006, 12:43 PM
To be devils advocate should Sage start on game day since he is able to find his TE`s already? Itís a new system for Sage also.Then when DC comes up to speed he can become the starter again?

i dont think so, carr's not adjusting to game speed or coming into the NFL for the first time as a rookie would. the best thing for carr right now is repititions. he should be in for a half to 3 quarters tonight, so hopefully it'll be easier for us fans to see where he really stands. the gameplan should be pretty similar to a regular season game, so who knows ... putz might end up with 6 catches tonight.

CaptainPatriot
08-27-2006, 02:22 PM
If you recall billy miller was the closest thing to a recieving TE that we had and he was david's favorite target. They hooked up often... It has only been 2 PRESEASON games give him time to adapt during the regular season im sure daniels and putzier will get plenty of balls their way.

But see thats my point . How is it DC needs more time where as for Sage he has the nac to throw to the TE's already. Sage is in a whole new enviroment and system. Looks like Sage has his progression down already. Where as DC still needs time.

CaptainPatriot
08-27-2006, 02:24 PM
Actually, hasn't he thrown to the TE's more than that but he's had the plays nullified because of penalties?

Don't know I was going by the play by play on NFL.com. it's possible

CaptainPatriot
08-27-2006, 02:25 PM
They are not open every play.:brickwall

I guess they are open more when Sage is in?

Hulk75
08-27-2006, 04:59 PM
I guess they are open more when Sage is in?
Yea true the coverage is also softer when he is in anyways.:rolleyes:

tsip
08-27-2006, 06:04 PM
Yea true the coverage is also softer when he is in anyways.:rolleyes:

...make you a deal. I won't 'knock' Carr's play tonight if you don't make excuses for it...deal?