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View Full Version : When will Carr throw deep?


Divebomb
08-22-2006, 03:32 PM
Is it me or has anyone else noticed that Carr has not thrown a ball over 20 yards. I mean a reciever might stretch out a 7 yard pass into 20 yards but I have not seen one, complete or incomplete, pass over 35 yeards in the air. Whats the deal?

El Amigo Invisible
08-22-2006, 03:34 PM
Didn't Carr used to air it out alot to Bradford his rookie year(when he wasn't running for his life)?

El Tejano
08-22-2006, 03:35 PM
I've been wondering the same thing. I kind of hope he lets it fly a couple of times this week.

RiotCommander
08-22-2006, 03:36 PM
Mathis really was the only deep threat we had. AJ could go deep but I don't expect many deep balls into double coverage. It will open up in the reg season when the saftey has to come down and stop the run. Right now they just play base defense.

Runner
08-22-2006, 03:40 PM
Mathis really was the only deep threat we had.

I would guess that there are many receivers slower than Mathis who were successful with the long ball. AJ is certainly capable of going deep.

Wild.Bill
08-22-2006, 03:46 PM
AJ is certainly capable of going deep, but is also the one receiver that the safeties will double on. We lack a true burner to stretch the defense not named Andre Johnson. Moulds and Walters will be very good possession receivers.

Mathis, even though very unexperienced, is the type of speed that you want as a third/fourth receiver that can sneak past the safeties for big plays.

Runner
08-22-2006, 03:50 PM
The tight ends will make the safeties pay for doubling Andre. There are many ways to be successful with the long ball other than having two really fast guys.

Having an offensive system that exploits your opponents weaknesses and reinforces your own strengths (which I think we are building) would open up the long pass more than just adding Mathis into a poorly planned offense (like last year's Texans).

Texans_Chick
08-22-2006, 03:55 PM
He will throw deep when they set that up.

Usually Denver will dink and dunk and then when the guys in the booth see that the defenders are shading up, then they will send it downfield.

Some plays they run just to set up stuff later on.

Deep options are often available, and the QBs are taught to look downfield first, but if it is not there, they aren't supposed to chuck it.

Strategery. We have to get used to it as Texans fans. :cool:

RiotCommander
08-22-2006, 03:56 PM
Mannn everyone keeps saying what I already posted just using different words. Don't I get any credit at all :)


:challenge :challenge

MYDAUGHTER'STEXANS
08-22-2006, 03:58 PM
He has been too busy running for his life, or getting sacked to throw deep, hopefully this year he will air one out to A.J. or Moulds for a TD....

jerek
08-22-2006, 03:59 PM
The tight ends will make the safeties pay for doubling Andre. There are many ways to be successful with the long ball other than having two really fast guys.

Having an offensive system that exploits your opponents weaknesses and reinforces your own strengths (which I think we are building) would open up the long pass more than just adding Mathis into a poorly planned offense (like last year's Texans).

Good call. IMO Carr needs to make use of his cannon arm a few more times per game, but I don't really care if he throws long, as long as the drive involves correct decisions and ends in a score.

Unfortunately the TV broadcast doesn't show the whole field, so it's oftentimes hard to see who is or isn't open downfield outside of the limited view.

I think you will see Carr throw long more and more as the season progresses and he becomes comfortable in Kubiak's system. You gotta remember -- it's one thing to practice a play with confidence, it's another to have that same confidence in a game. This is a guy who for years has endured bad practice absent of "game conditions;" previously, Capers and Carr would practice a bunch of things that Carr never saw in a real game. Give him a little time to make that adjustment.

I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone, but it's beneficial to place his performance in context.

trane
08-22-2006, 04:01 PM
Is it me or has anyone else noticed that Carr has not thrown a ball over 20 yards. I mean a reciever might stretch out a 7 yard pass into 20 yards but I have not seen one, complete or incomplete, pass over 35 yeards in the air. Whats the deal?

IMO-It seems he likes to throw deep when his receiver is wide open and does not like to throw deep in tight coverage or double teams.

humbleone
08-22-2006, 04:02 PM
The deep shot (taken 2-3 times a game on average) is part of this offense I believe. As others have commented, they might not all go to AJ however...Lewis caught a nice one at the flag from Sage last week (a deep ball play among others they work on every practice I understand).

IMO, Kubes and Carr still have a lot of work to do to get Carr ready to (1) have the vision to see that option in his read progression and (2) have him remain calm and patient enough to take that option. As Kubes has coached him many times..."just slow down a bit". And please, before anyone lights me up about being anti-Carr and how if he had more time etc... check my posts...I have been and remain a big Carr fan. :redtowel:

infantrycak
08-22-2006, 04:06 PM
Is it me or has anyone else noticed that Carr has not thrown a ball over 20 yards. I mean a reciever might stretch out a 7 yard pass into 20 yards but I have not seen one, complete or incomplete, pass over 35 yeards in the air. Whats the deal?

The pass which was tipped by the LB in the KC preseason game was a 30+ yd throw. Kubiak has mentioned Carr missing a couple longer options in the Rams game--can't tell from the televised game how far those WR's were or even which play since you often can't see the receivers.

IMO-It seems he likes to throw deep when his receiver is wide open and does not like to throw deep in tight coverage or double teams.

Carr used to be willing to take these shots (as someone mentioned, see the Vikings game throwing long balls to AJ in double coverage, to Armstrong over the middle) but (and all of this stuff is Carr's 100% responsibility to get rid of) pressure and Capers/Pendry preaching small ball (rather than fixing the protection) and no turnovers removed the long ball from the Texans' arsenal. Kubiak's biggest coaching challenge is getting Carr to put it back in because Kubiak wants it there.

SESupergenius
08-22-2006, 04:21 PM
Is anyone else but me worried about the offensive line and pass protection? Although a sack in 2 games is phenominal, I am truly worried about the outside edge penetration.

Carr however had been doing a good job of looking downfield and keeping the safeties at bay. We should see more rollouts this game and thus more long ball, but since this is Denver and they see this everyday, it's going to be problematic for Carr. This is going to be a wierd game.

Marcus
08-22-2006, 04:53 PM
Is anyone else but me worried about the offensive line and pass protection? Although a sack in 2 games is phenominal, I am truly worried about the outside edge penetration.
I'm not nearly as worried about the offensive line, as I am in the young backs with the blitz recognitions, and being in the proper spot when they do recognize them.

They re going to blitz, and blitz, and blitz until finally, finally, Carr makes them pay for it. And Carr will never, ever . . .have the ability to make them pay for it until the backs do a better job of picking up those blitzes.

Double Barrel
08-22-2006, 05:12 PM
I'm not nearly as worried about the offensive line, as I am in the young backs with the blitz recognitions, and being in the proper spot when they do recognize them.

They re going to blitz, and blitz, and blitz until finally, finally, Carr makes them pay for it. And Carr will never, ever . . .have the ability to make them pay for it until the backs do a better job of picking up those blitzes.

I agree. Our backs have a lot to learn, especially if we want to avoid another 50+ sack season.

At least we'll have TEs to help pick up blitzes and give Carr a viable option to drop short passes to. If we are successful with it, we might see teams respect it and blitz less often. But we'll have to prove it first.

Eagle23
08-22-2006, 05:17 PM
he will never throe deep, too bad he is comming to philly

Brandon420tx
08-22-2006, 05:18 PM
he will never throe deep, too bad he is comming to philly
Troll Alert

tsip
08-22-2006, 05:20 PM
He will throw deep when they set that up.

Usually Denver will dink and dunk and then when the guys in the booth see that the defenders are shading up, then they will send it downfield.

Some plays they run just to set up stuff later on.

Deep options are often available, and the QBs are taught to look downfield first, but if it is not there, they aren't supposed to chuck it.

Strategery. We have to get used to it as Texans fans. :cool:

...nothing to get use to...dink and dunk is Carr's trademark, still going strong after 4 yrs...winning is what I'm waiting for, as losing is no fun to get use to...

2005 ypa 5.9 2006 5.5

Runner
08-22-2006, 05:27 PM
Is anyone else but me worried about the offensive line and pass protection? Although a sack in 2 games is phenominal, I am truly worried about the outside edge penetration.


Why are you worried specifically? Because of the past seasons, or something you see going on right now?

SESupergenius
08-22-2006, 05:34 PM
Why are you worried specifically? Because of the past seasons, or something you see going on right now?
Well just an FYI in my book the offensive line includes the pass protection of the TE and RB, but i saw that the RT spot was letting through too many rushes. They are within a slit hair of nabbing the QB. I may just be reaching on this but we'll get to see more this game.

Runner
08-22-2006, 05:39 PM
Well just an FYI in my book the offensive line includes the pass protection of the TE and RB, but i saw that the RT spot was letting through too many rushes. They are within a slit hair of nabbing the QB. I may just be reaching on this but we'll get to see more this game.

The good news is:
Weigert will solidify the RT spot.

The bad news is:
Until he gets hurt.

infantrycak
08-22-2006, 05:46 PM
2005 ypa 5.9 2006 5.5

2004 7.58 ypa with the offense on shut down mode for 7 games of the season--8.6 ypa thru the 1st 8 games.

But hey, there is every reason in the world to project this O being worse than last year's.

tsip
08-22-2006, 05:47 PM
If he won't throw deep, I'd almost (almost) settle to see him throw one like Brady did the other day---1,2,3 step drop (looking down field the whole time w/blitz coming)--ball out of his hand, completed to the receiver 'down field.'...maybe 2 seconds and maybe one day Carr will be one of those QBs that finds a way to beat you no matter what...Manning got 'stuffed' by Pitt in the play-offs, think he won't 'bounce' back? Good QB's do...

tsip
08-22-2006, 06:17 PM
2004 7.58 ypa with the offense on shut down mode for 7 games of the season--8.6 ypa thru the 1st 8 games.

But hey, there is every reason in the world to project this O being worse than last year's.


It's not the O that's the problem--question is can Carr utilize all the O has to offer, or is he too 'shell shocked' from his first 4 yrs. For this O to work, it takes a QB that can 1) get to the line quickly 2) read the defense quickly 3) find the open receiver quickly 4) get the ball to that open teceiver quickly, all the while effectively handling the pressure....'quickly' being the key.

Also, that's great Carr avg 8.6 two yrs ago but what does that have to do with his recent sub 6 #'s? I guess you're saying he has the potential to get back to the 8.6?

infantrycak
08-22-2006, 06:29 PM
It's not the O that's the problem--question is can Carr utilize all the O has to offer, .

My real point is I just don't see how it is reasonable to project a drop in ypa as you did. IMO even if Carr plays no better than he did last year, his stats and the team's would be better than those generated under the pathetic system last year--probably get him benched, but still generate better results than last year until the benching.

Also, that's great Carr avg 8.6 two yrs ago but what does that have to do with his recent sub 6 #'s? I guess you're saying he has the potential to get back to the 8.6?

I see no reason why not--actually 8.6 would be pretty darn high (only Big Ben had that kind of ypa last year), but a very respectable 7.5+ should be within his reach. Carr with all the faults he has now produced those numbers in the not so distant past and with nonexistant coaching. If he doesn't have the potential to do that then McNair, Kubiak, Reeves, Sherman and Casserly have all made a huge error in judgment--not saying he will get there, but they obviously feel he has the potential. I'm willing to wait and see (and hope for the good of the Texans) that they are right.

Lucky
08-22-2006, 06:45 PM
And Carr will never, ever . . .have the ability to make them pay for it until the backs do a better job of picking up those blitzes.
I went back and looked at the game (for a 3rd time), and noticed that the Texans completed one pass against 5 blitzes when the rookie Lundy was in the game. With Morency at RB, the Texans were successful on all four pass attempts versus the blitz (Carr 2-2, Sage 2-2). Now, I'm not laying all of the blame at Wali. Carr needed to get rid of the ball sooner, the receivers should have sight adjusted their routes sooner, plus the Texans were in their "scripted plays" early. But, Kubiak and the Texans staff did adjust. And part of that adjustment was replacing Lundy with Morency.

I think it was good for the Texans to get blitzed like that in preseason. You have to believe that the Eagles DC Jim Johnson will send extra guys whenever the opportunity presents itself. Morency is in his 2nd season, and he wasn't that great at picking up the blitzer as a rookie. I think Lundy will get better as the year goes along. Opening week might be too early, that's why I hope the Texans decide to keep Antowain Smith on the roster.

Runner
08-22-2006, 06:45 PM
I see no reason why not...

I don't either. We are a better team than the 2004 team - better players, far better coaching. We do have a harder schedule though. But it is our schedule - bring it on.

hollywood_texan
08-22-2006, 07:09 PM
Until Carr beats defenses deep, defensive coordinators are going to bring the heat. It's risk versus reward and Carr will have to make defenses pay if they blitz guys. If Carr can't, it means the guys providing protection are going to have pick up the blitz more often and from exotic spots.

What I thought was interesting was that two tight end set brings a lot of defensive guys in the box, particularly DBs. That is what I noticed in the St. Louis game. The play Carr got wacked, two DBs did a delayed blitz (they were already in the box) and Lundy was the only guy to pick them up because all the other lineman had their guys engaged. Lundy picked up the inside guy. The other guy came straight in and slammed Carr. I don't know if you can blame Lundy for that one. Is that a quarterback read?

Also, earlier in the game, Carr was so far back from the pocket the guy Lundy was trying to block didn't even have to go through or around Lundy to get to Carr. Someone was out of position there or maybe both were just a little which made the situation so bad.

So far from an offense perspective, the running game has been very good. The passing game seems to be ungraded at this point. Maybe that is what Kubiak wants to start the season off.

As for pass protection, I think it has been okay, nothing to write home about.

Jimpster
08-22-2006, 07:12 PM
Carr stopped throwing deep when Chris Palmer was the OC. Palmer wanted Carr to get the ball off ASAP to prevent sacks. Seems like even with Palmer gone, Carr hasn't thrown deep.

Runner
08-22-2006, 07:16 PM
Carr stopped throwing deep when Chris Palmer was the OC. Palmer wanted Carr to get the ball off ASAP to prevent sacks. Seems like even with Palmer gone, Carr hasn't thrown deep.

I thought Palmer was the throw deep guy and as Pendry gained more influence the long pass went away.

aj.
08-22-2006, 07:18 PM
Smith and Lelie had plenty of deep ball opportunities in this system. Many of those opportunities came out of rollouts and boots. Have some patience - this is a run first, pass second offense but you will see more diversification in play selection than you've ever seen with the Texans. I know that's not saying a whole lot but indulge the thought while remembering that Madden is just a game - and a HOF coach.

HJam72
08-22-2006, 07:21 PM
I thought Palmer was the throw deep guy and as Pendry gained more influence the long pass went away.

You're right, Runner. Palmer was stifled in his hopes of using the passing game. Pendry was Mr. one step back and THROW IT NOW, LET IT GO, FIRE IT OUTA THERE!!!!!!! Never mind that no receiver can get open that fast. Actually, Carr did stop throwing deep while Palmer was still the OC, but that's because of the cover 2 zone and our lack of a pass-catching TE (at least on the field anyway).

I've seen Carr throw some total bombs in the videos of training camp. Guess the D just isn't allowing that in the games. That's probably why Morency and Lundy are going off on them.

bayoudreamn
08-22-2006, 07:28 PM
Well just an FYI in my book the offensive line includes the pass protection of the TE and RB, but i saw that the RT spot was letting through too many rushes. They are within a slit hair of nabbing the QB. I may just be reaching on this but we'll get to see more this game.

I've been worried about this too, and decided to watch several other teams this PS to see what they were doing. I've seen good teams and bad teams. Just looking at a complete game and comparing it to other teams' complete games and trying to get an idea about what kind of time the Texans QBs have is hard, but my gut feeling after seeing alot of games is that it's not quite up to par with other teams. I don't think we'll know until preseason, but it doesn't look like our protection is as wide or long(time wise) as several other teams. I'm worried that it will turn out to be a limited protection when the season starts.

Bamaborn-Texasbred
08-22-2006, 07:54 PM
If they continue to get 4,5,6, and 7 yards a carry after the opening whistle against the Eagles, I don't care if Carr never throws a deep ball. That is probably asking a whole lot, but eventually they are going to play a defense that will over-commit itself to stopping the run. That is when AJ, Moulds, and co. light it up.

tsip
08-22-2006, 08:10 PM
"My real point is I just don't see how it is reasonable to project a drop in ypa as you did."

I'm not projecting a drop this year, just posted what he did in '05 and in pre-season so far this year--but, there is a downward trend in his last 25 games (not counting pre-season) in ypa from good to not good (now, right at 6). You-of all posters- know anything below 6 is the bottom of the league, with the elite QBs between 7-8.

I firmly believe that Carr's success/failure throwing down field is directly related to how he handles pressure, and IMO he's going to get more than ever this year. Who would have thought the Rams would use all those 'exotic' blitzes in the 2nd pre-season game?

Jwwillis
08-22-2006, 08:16 PM
Comical to blame Palmer for Carr not throwing deep. Didn't Palmer coach the run-and-shoot...aka Red Gun?? Guess Im saying Palmer had Carr dinking off not because that's all he knew its because the o-line was dreadfull.

LBC_Justin
08-22-2006, 08:19 PM
Is anyone else but me worried about the offensive line and pass protection? Although a sack in 2 games is phenominal, I am truly worried about the outside edge penetration.

Carr however had been doing a good job of looking downfield and keeping the safeties at bay. We should see more rollouts this game and thus more long ball, but since this is Denver and they see this everyday, it's going to be problematic for Carr. This is going to be a wierd game.
Pat Kirwin said he plotted all the snaps that David Carr has taken in preseason and everything was golden on the 3 step drops, but during the 5 step drops the pass rush is still all over him, causing pressure and forcing him to run, sacking him, or batting down the ball.

I would be curious if someone could watch the tape and focus on the type of drop he takes....3 step vs 5 step and report back to us the results and the pressure he is under.

Jwwillis
08-22-2006, 08:19 PM
Untill Carr proves he can remain calm under pressure the blitzes will keep coming. By the end of the season Morency will be able to compete for an OT job from sheer expierence.

infantrycak
08-22-2006, 08:21 PM
I'm not projecting a drop this year, just posted what he did in '05 and in pre-season so far this year--but, there is a downward trend in his last 25 games (not counting pre-season) in ypa from good to not good (now, right at 6). You-of all posters- know anything below 6 is the bottom of the league, with the elite QBs between 7-8.

I do know that. I also know with a sample size this small it is almost silly to look at the numbers. But for a great play by KC's MLB, Carr would have a 50 yd TD in his stats. That one pass alone would elevate his ypa for the preseason to 7.6 or so and a rating of over 90. I'm not saying that reflects Carr's true talent either, just that it is a good example of what small sample sizes can do. Hey, if he had done enough to have a 120 QB rating in the 1st two games I would be thinking we need to see more as well. This is going to take time to really see what is up--if Carr doesn't show substantial improvement over the 1st half of the season it will be time to hit the panic button--three quarters of play just isn't enough.